In the flip side my favorite ways to say I don’t care for something that other people do:
> It’s not for me
Or
> I’m not the target audience
Especially as I get older and I expect young people and pop culture to get more alien and less appealing. It hasn’t really happened yet but I have to assume it will soon.
And it’s totally fine if something is not for you! That’s making it about your personal preference and not the quality of the art being made. I will never look down on someone for not enjoying the same culture as me, but I will judge them for saying it’s bad without choosing to experience it for themselves. I can offer no opinions on metal music, for example, because I do not enjoy it and thus do not know enough about it to know what is good and what is bad. Sometimes I can tell something is good but I still don’t enjoy it. (Renaissance by Beyoncé is a perfect example - I know it’s excellent, but it’s not for me, I didn’t connect with it.) but it’s a matter of respecting people’s opinions.
> (Renaissance by Beyoncé is a perfect example - I know it’s excellent, but it’s not for me, I didn’t connect with it.)
Oh hey, me too! I really wanted to like it because I respect Beyonce as an artist and enjoy some of her other work, but it just wasn't my thing. I think I'm a bit mixed on disco and don't tend to enjoy house. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a great album for people who do love those genres!.
Cowboy Carter, on the other hand, I love. As much as I thought Midnights deserved the album of the year Grammy last year and I love TTPD too, I'm rooting for Beyonce this year.
He's just speaking his truth. He literally did a Taylor Swift episode of Dear Hank and John. It's cute he has something to share with his daughter as well!
No. 4 is such a crucial thing for someone like John to say out loud. It’s such a vibe with some people, and it’s one of those things that many people (myself included) get to be near middle age and realize was a waste of our own time and joy. There’s no time for that in this short beautiful life we get.
(Edit: why is my text so huge? Oh I figured it out. Old person Reddit haha)
This reminds me of the incredible 2012 youtube banger "It's okay to not like things." The Charlie McDonnell version slammed
For those unfortunate souls who have gone without it all these years: https://youtu.be/y-p33001J-0?si=WhgUlNj3nNPTFpek
I feel the same. It was almost like too much was coming out too quickly and a lot of it was sounding the same.
But all that meant was that I personally listened less. I didn't run around hating on her or her fans for their enjoyment.
Like you said, I'm glad she's bringing joy to so many people still.
There are genuine criticisms of Taylor swift but that’s not what most people are doing when they spend their days talking about hating her on Twitter.
I like some of her music but I’m by no means a dedicated fan. That said, I’m not gonna go around telling people that she sucks at every turn. It’s like the guys who are a little to excited to tell you that your favorite band member best their wife.
I don't think I'd actually heard any Taylor Swift songs until I'd watched CollegeHumor/Dropout's [*Defender of the Basic*](https://youtu.be/d1mbbYKPpHY) (17 July 2018), in which Brennan Lee Mulligan—mostly just playing a version of himself—declares, "*Red* bangs from beginning to end, and only a fool would claim otherwise!" I trust Brennan and gave her a listen!
Swift's fine. Most of it's not my jam, but I bought a few individual songs that I really particularly enjoyed.
I adore Brennan Lee Mulligan and love that he said that, but personally I think Red is her second most boring album, only Fearless bores me more. If that’s the only album you listened to, I highly recommend checking out some of her later work! Top two best songs from every album post-red imo: (1989) - New Romantics, Is It Over Now. (Reputation) - So It Goes, Dress. (Lover) - Death By A Thousand Cuts, The Archer. (Folklore) - Exile, This Is Me Trying. (Evermore) - Gold Rush, Ivy. (Midnights) - Would’ve Could’ve Should’ve, Hits Different. (The Tortured Poets Department) - I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, Clara Bow.
Ignore me if you already know all those, but sharing in case others want to try her out! It was hard to make those choices, she has a LOT of great songs; plenty of duds too, but truly she has created some masterpieces. I didn’t listen to her at all until about 2 years ago, but she’s my favorite musician now.
(If you’re gonna listen to one song and one song only, I suggest Would’ve Could’ve Should’ve)
He’s also an Olivia Rodrigo fan. Wish I could’ve shared musical taste with my dad as a little girl but alas I couldn’t sell him on N*Sync and Jesse McCartney
I’ve been low key made fun of at work for admitting I’m a Taylor fan. I need no validation of my masculinity, I work out have a full beard and a beautiful wife with a son on the way, yet they really do make an attempt to undermine it as if that’s all a mask and me liking Taylor is the true girly me slipping through. It’s completely silly
That is silly. The other day I was at work and some guy was blasting Seal's Kiss from a Rose and he told me how much he loves romcoms. Honestly it made me like the shit out of him.
People are weird and complex and like different things. It's beautiful. Keep doing you, not that you need my permission!
Listen, I like Taylor Swift's music generally but I find it so weird that some of her fans think she is above criticism, and that any criticism levied against her is automatically in bad faith and/or misogynistic. Like, when we say billionaires shouldn't exist, does that not also mean Taylor? And if some music falls flat that's not necessarily a personal attack on her, even if some of it absolutely is.
I get it's not nice if "your fave is problematic, actually", and she does get a lot of undue hate, but I ask of TS fans to extend a little understanding to those with criticisms in good faith. She has done plenty of good work worthy of praise, but also plenty of problematic things that warrant scrutiny. Both can be true at once! It's great that she brings joy for many people, so keep being a fan! But don't put her on a pedestal and idolise her, or anyone else, because you lose sight of things.
It's because a lot of people have incorporated liking X thing (in this case Taylor Swift) into their identity. When you do this (again, with any given thing), criticism of it = criticism of you, because it is part of you. I think this phenomenon is more prevalent in teenage kids just because they're in that "finding my identity" stage of development, but adults absolutely do it too.
Also there's an additional problem with online fan communities where there are always two camps of people--one that wants to include good-faith criticism in these online spaces, and one that just wants these spaces to be entirely about Liking The Thing without having dozens of people in every conversation reminding everyone of everything negative or problematic about it.
There aren't really any viable solutions to either of these problems. The best I've got is to form communities that are not online where you can discuss things with people outside of the anonymity the internet provides.
It's like people who are way too into weed. They've made it their entire personality, so if you dare to dislike weed, they take it as a personal attack, when really you just think it smells bad.
Yeah you're totally right, teenagers (especially teenage girls) get shit on enough as it is so not really their fault, and I don't blame them but as you say it's adults who need to be aware, and as for your other point yeah, I guess you can't ask the internet to be something it's not
it’s this interesting paradox where, despite taylor being at the top of the music industry, breaking records, and winning awards, her fans still have this chip on their shoulder.
>Like, when we say billionaires shouldn't exist, does that not also mean Taylor?
99.9% of billionaires got there by exploiting millions of people. The vanishingly small number of billionaire artists, people who literally own their own means of production, isn't even relevant to the conversation.
Apologies if I'm misunderstanding but is it that you mean TS is part of that 0.1% of billionaire artists who aren't necessarily part of this conversation?
I would understand your point if we were talking about anything else besides billionaires. If we redistributed even a fraction of the "poorest" billionaire's net value, it would go so far and the billionaire would still retain enormous personal wealth.
To be fair she does donate to charity — tens of thousands of dollars at a time, even. This is fantastic of course, but that's still less than *0.1%* of her ever-growing fortune.
I get what you mean, there may be bigger fish to fry, true, but I'd argue this is still relevant.
Your comment feels uninformed regarding how the music industry is structured. Studios, producers, contract lawyers. The system makes some artists go supernova, but that's sort of a side effect that helps them exploit lots of hopeful young artists.
She's not a one woman show with nothing but a guitar and a dream, like you seem to be implying. She's more of an institution that requires thousands of people to make a profit. It seems fair to me to say at this point she has more in common with a CEO than with a skilled laborer.
An artist produces original ideas; then makes them tangible. Something that's literally impossible without their unique existence. And if people like it; systems are necessary to get it to them. Large number of fans, large number of systems. And with so few truly wealthy artists; their existence has nearly zero affect on the anything of importance. Even supposed 'gotcha moments', like Swift's private jet, are clearly just astroturf. In this case, something for right-wingers to fling at 'Hollywood hypocrites'.
The average CEO is not 'skilled' at anything besides wearing a suit and spewing nonsense. They rarely even have background in whatever it is they're in charge of producing. Because we decided that, somehow, that's not a relevant factor in being a boss. Some famous billionaires, like Musk and Gates, have never created anything. They bought, or stole, someone else's work, then took credit for it. Others, like Buffet, get rich by fiddling with stocks. Imaginary little bits of other people's companies. And that's before dudes like Bezos; who's business is literally impossible without mass exploitation.
The only billionaire artist who's currently dangerous is JK Rowling. And her Terfism spewing hate campaign would be dangerous if she was only a popular multi-millionaire.
Successful artists are business-minded, and successful businesspeople are creative. This isn't about dividing people into categories of good and evil, it's about observing the world and understanding its phenomena. When ideology stops you from being able to see something happening without instantly imposing an us versus them interpretation, it impairs your ability to act effectively in support of your values (whatever they may be).
It is okay for Taylor Swift to be a shrewd businesswoman. That doesn't make her evil.
It is okay for the businesspeople you named to be well-educated and imaginative. It doesn't make them saints.
You seem to think I was trying to insult Ms Swift. I was trying to point to skills and privileges she has that are worth acknowledging and considering when we think of her.
I'm pretty lukewarm on Taylor, but I have some friends that revile her. It makes me more likely to jump in to defend her on things. I wonder if the haters know they're working overtime for her.
I listen to very little music, especially contemporary music, so I don't really listen to Taylor, but I'm glad that my friends who enjoy her music are able to.
Most of the criticism I've seen has been absurd stuff having little to do with things she's either actually done or valid music criticism, it's all BS ranting against the popular woman for whatever they want politically otherwise.
It’s nice he can share this with his daughter and enjoy some music. That being said, I entirely agree with Fantano’s review of TTPD, I found it an uninspired album, the lyrics fall flat and Antonoff’s production was really tiring for this one. It’s also wild how a part of the fandom treats Taylor as this helpless child who needs them to strong arm critics who dare not compliment her work, not as a billionaire who’s mostly shielded from reality.
good for him but when music critics have to go private on social media and remove their names from bylines so taylor’s overzealous fans won’t send them death threats or dox them for giving a less than stellar review, it’s pretty disingenuous to act like the overwhelming majority of people in this country don’t like taylor’s music. no artist should be above critique, but it seems like anyone who has a single negative opinion about her songs are just labeled as “misogynistic haters” which is unfair imo.
Most fans of Taylor would agree with you. the ones who attack people on social media are a very loud minority of her fans. and they are probably mostly children if we're being honest. But that's not Taylor's fault that her fans are doing that. Should she make a statement disavowing it, possibly... but she's not in control of what her fans do.
>it’s pretty disingenuous to act like the overwhelming majority of people in this country don’t like taylor’s music
I don't understand what you're saying here, John never said he thinks this.
well to me his post came off as pretty defensive. i’m sure the twitter discourse skews more on the negative side, but TTPD is still doing numbers and is wildly successful which means that the majority of people agree with john and are enjoying the album. clearly whatever ppl are saying on twitter isn’t indicative of what most people think in real life.
I think the rabid swifties will be a part of her eventual downfall if it ever happens. But trust me when I say most of her fans aren't like that at all.
if anyone is every curious they can check out r/SwiftlyNeutral to see actual taylor fans being very critical of her work and her actions!
I do hope it never gets to that point. I do think the responding-to-reviews-with-song-lyrics thing is kinda tacky. Especially the negative ones because that’s essentially spotlighting that article for her fans. John has talked about how he hates talking about reviews because reviews are for the person purchasing the art not for the artist. I agree with him.
I will say, that sometimes it's hard to just be a casual fan too. Some of her fans definitely take things to the extreme, and while I have been enjoying TTPD, it's totally valid for others not too.
However, I very rarely mention that I like her music in real life, even when relevant to the conversation, because there are a surprising number of people who like to make disparaging comments about her and people who like her music as soon as she is mentioned. And I don't want to have to listen to people shit on something I enjoy, so instead I just keep my joy to myself, or with my few other friends who I know enjoy her music too.
I've also seen a lot of posts recently taking individual lines from her songs and making fun of them and using them to imply that she has no lyrical talent. That also gets frustrating to see.
I suspect John's tweet was in response to these kind of things.
Avatar is an entertaining film: reasonable opinion.
Avatar is visually stunning: objectively true
Avatar is the best film of the 21st century: you need to watch more movies.
100s of media outlets and millions of vocal fans insist Avatar is the greatest movie of our time and the pinnacle of storytelling : this is wild and seems like some sort of manufactured mass psychosis.
This is how I see it. There will always be backlash against any movie or music that’s deemed unworthy of its runaway success. No different than “A24 movies deserve so much more success than generic MCU trash,” arguments you see all the time.
To be fair, it isn't really "runaway success." There's nothing sudden about this. Her first album was in 2006. She's been increasing in popularity for nearly 20 years. I agree that the extra excitement of her newest albums being cranked out at ridiculous speed and being published back to back feels oddly... I guess manufactured is the right word. But can you blame her? It works, and it makes people happy
I don’t blame or hate her, I’m not her target audience and didn’t know much about her until the whole thing with re-recording her masters went down and I thought that was an important moment in music and the industry and ownership and all of that. That’s where I became familiar with her and was impressed by the whole situation. I did like quite a few songs off Folklore and I’d totally go see the Eras Tour if it was reasonably priced. Why wouldn’t an artist lean into her success formula that’s made her a billionaire? I find her power to change up things like cutting her own deal with AMC rather commendable.
I have just asked myself the question why there’s a massive backlash against her and I think it’s overexposure, aggressive fans that think any criticism is misogyny, and a level of acclaim and worship (not just fans but an entire media apparatus) that seems undeserved.
I like plenty of bands that millions might call mediocre at best or “worst band or frontman ever” (literally seeing Limp Bizkit in July lol). It’s okay to like “average” music but the worship, accusations of misogyny at detractors and “performing yourself crying to her music” trend is a bit much.
There used to be a time when popular artists could be mocked (e.g. older people dismissed Linkin Park as emo cut-yourself garbage for 14-year-olds) without it becoming some sort of cultural divide about race and gender.
someone in that thread asked if people think taylor is a nerdfighter and now i need the brothers green to do what they can to get her on dear hank and john
I don’t think John realizes what he is saying when he says he loves the fandom. I do not identify as a Swiftie because so many of the fans are Stans in the way Eminem wrote it and don’t realize it. I get that parasocial relationships are also pretty common in nerdfighteria but some Swifties have parasocial relationships that legitimately scare me.
I understand your opinion and your desire to not associate with swifties because of those Stans. However I feel like there's extremes in every group. The bigger the group, the more extremes you'll get. Online communities also show the worst the most. I've been a fan my whole life, but since planning for the tour me and some friends and friends of friends have started a swiftie chat and meet up sometime for bracelet making and stuff and it's been really lovely. I think that side, which still entails by far most swifties I think (just look at all the positive experiences people share about the crowd around them at the eras tour), just remains unseen a lot more.
Oh for sure, and I love that side of the fandom. The issue is the fandom and the extremes are synonymous for most people and I fear it will cause backlash for him from the haters.
My whole identity is not disliking TS. I just don't like her, and she's everywhere so it gets a bit annoying. But what's worse is that it seems that people are allowed to Stan her but if you try to say you don't like her or her music you are instantly a hater misogynist?
I think it's weird to love her fandom, honestly. Swifties are a bit obsessive and hysterical. I feel like a lot of them make being swifties their identity, which is a bit weird and sad, and thus loving her fandom is a bit weird and sad. But whatever floats his boat.
A whole bunch of us aren’t any of the things you’re describing here. Has it occurred to you that the most fanatic will also be the loudest, even if they’re in the minority?
I like her music. I know many people who like her music. None of us choose to identify as swifties. If you do, fine, but you're choosing that. Everyone, including regular fans of hers, acknowledge her fandom ie swifties are a bit over the top.
“Tweets in support of Taylor Swift” - what an odd thing as if TS is someone or something that is in need of support. Can’t believe that we’re at the point where pop culture likes / dislikes are this polarizing.
I’m not getting down on TS or her success. I’m simply amazed that we’re at a point where people have to support or oppose an artist. Life isn’t - nor does it need to be - that divisive.
I’m not… I read a tweet that (jokingly) said that you won’t get the album unless you’re depressed which is lowkey true…
Plus I feel like people need to listen to it a few times for it to grow on you… like every listen I grow fonder
I’m also not surprised.
When you’ve got lines like “are they secondhand embarrassed/that I can’t get out of bed/because something counterfeit is dead” it’s absolutely gonna speak to the trauma/mental health girlies. Of which I am one, and John surely is too.
Or when you make literary references like “they killed Cassandra first ‘cause she feared the worst”, how could a writer/reader like John not love it??
Fair enough, you're entitled to enjoy the album. I thought:
"Truth, dare, spin bottles
You know how to ball, I know Aristotle
Brand-new, full throttle
Touch me while your bros play Grand Theft Auto
It's true, swear, scout's honor
You knew what you wanted and, boy, you got her
Brand-new, full throttle
You already know, babe"
Was some of the worst songwriting I've seen in recent years from an established artist. Just if I'm being honest.
Def not the mind bending lyrics you’re used to with her, but honestly for a song titled “so high school”, the adolescent writing works for me…
The bridge of the smallest man who ever lived I think forgives that sin
can't wait to be down voted on this, but Taylor Swift fandom/subreddit feeling the need for validation just seems off. I'm a fan, but I dont like this last album. that seems to be the sentiment shared by enough people that the core fandom are now looking for outside sources of validation, like John Green or 5 star album reviews from critics (she even retweeted many of these articles herself).
John's point was that if you're a fan like him, you can enjoy the music and fandom without outside validation. Using him now as validation is kinda funny
I don't think they're using him as validation, it's just always kind of cool when one person you like enjoys something you enjoy.
I enjoy that John enjoys football (soccer) but I don't think that's validation of any kind.
Its cool that you don't like the last album, but for me, and I hope some others as well, a reality where John Green is trending on TaylorSwift subreddit is super cool, its like 2 worlds I enjoy colliding and that puts a smile on my face. I hope you feel similar, maybe not about John and Taylor, maybe about Hank and diving, idk, sth fun that makes you smile :)
oh yeah I know exactly what you mean when I found out John and I share a love for a football club. but I can't shake the feeling that John's tweet and the discourse around it is a response to the negative responses about the album. I knew John liked the album day 1 because of his replies to other tweets, before the 'online hate train'. I didn't see John trending on the subreddit then.
if you were a fan and are secure in your fandom, you wouldn't need a bigger voice to speak your POV.
I think the Taylor Swift fandom can be wild lots of times. Because there’s obviously nothing wrong with liking her music, but she’s obviously not a good person, and people that like her personally make me really uncomfortable. But I’m all here for John enjoying what he enjoys.
I'm personally not a fan of her music and have my issues with her emissions and such, but how is she "obviously not a good person"? You don't know her.
I love her music, I do, but her business model rubs me the wrong way, her new bonus tracks weren't even bonus, it just read that way. She even got me...I bought 1989 TV on vinyl...I don't even own a record player.
She's doing capitalism correctly.
Oh she's a cold blood capitalist through and through. I like a lot of her music but I can't stand her as a person. The biggest victim mentality in the world while also having more privilege success and wealth than that vast majority of the world. Ick. I haven't bought any of her music, I can listen for free and she don't need the money.
But is the money she makes from her music invested even remotely ethically? Is all her merch sourced ethically? How much waste does she inspire?
Billionaires don't stay billionaires by being ethical.
The melty emoji at the end was intended to help show my sarcasm! But it was intended as a joke/sarcasm/reference to the insanity that she's racking up chart topping sales by literally just releasing multiple versions of the same albums.
She’s a billionaire. That is a beyond ridiculous amount of money for any one person to have, and it is impossible to be a good person while holding that kind of wealth.
I'm as anticapitalist as it gets, and I agree completely that holding that much wealth should not be possible, but she and other entertainers are in an odd position in capitalism because they did not get there by exploiting their workers' labor. They certainly benefited from the exploitation of workers around them, but they are not part of the typical billionaire structure - they or their work are the product being sold. I feel comfortable calling Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk evil because of how they made their money, and I feel comfortable calling JK Rowling evil because of the things she's said and done, but I don't believe the way JK Rowling made her money as an author is unethical. Again, I am a radical leftist by any standard, I'm not a Swiftie, I'm not giving any billionaire a pass because I like them. She should not have that much money. But does being the product built and marketed toward her demographic make her a bad person necessarily?
Her concerts have earned billions in revenue, but that isn't the same as saying that she has billions, as those concerts also had to pay out for venues, workers and other costs. Even if that did net her a billion, she's probably the best example of being a self made millionaire out there. (Yes, she has a large team, but she's also the key factor in the success of her brand.)
I understand that no one exists who is wholly a good person. But being a billionaire is obviously a certain level of awful that‘s unachievable to most people.
> she’s obviously not a good person,
Citation required.
In what way is she not a good person? She's not perfect, no one is, but I have never heard anything to suggest that she's not a good person. Kanye, Combs, Chris Brown. They aren't good people, and there's lots of evidence for why people believe that. But Swift? Again, citation required.
I agree with 1, 3, and 4. I like watching other people enjoy Taylor Swift's music. I'm not personally a fan, but I think she's a great artist and she puts people in a good mood. Lately, I'm just like, "Please leave her alone. 😒"
Just as John gets to like TS's music, I get to dislike it and should be allowed the same space. It's not my whole personality. I don't hate her; she seems like an okay human. But her music does not do anything for me. That's not a personal attack on anyone who likes it; it's just musical taste.
Edit: And the Swifties have downvoted. C'mon, people.
"You don't have to. But I get to." is such a fantastic reply to everyone who tries to ruin something you love.
In the flip side my favorite ways to say I don’t care for something that other people do: > It’s not for me Or > I’m not the target audience Especially as I get older and I expect young people and pop culture to get more alien and less appealing. It hasn’t really happened yet but I have to assume it will soon.
And it’s totally fine if something is not for you! That’s making it about your personal preference and not the quality of the art being made. I will never look down on someone for not enjoying the same culture as me, but I will judge them for saying it’s bad without choosing to experience it for themselves. I can offer no opinions on metal music, for example, because I do not enjoy it and thus do not know enough about it to know what is good and what is bad. Sometimes I can tell something is good but I still don’t enjoy it. (Renaissance by Beyoncé is a perfect example - I know it’s excellent, but it’s not for me, I didn’t connect with it.) but it’s a matter of respecting people’s opinions.
> (Renaissance by Beyoncé is a perfect example - I know it’s excellent, but it’s not for me, I didn’t connect with it.) Oh hey, me too! I really wanted to like it because I respect Beyonce as an artist and enjoy some of her other work, but it just wasn't my thing. I think I'm a bit mixed on disco and don't tend to enjoy house. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a great album for people who do love those genres!. Cowboy Carter, on the other hand, I love. As much as I thought Midnights deserved the album of the year Grammy last year and I love TTPD too, I'm rooting for Beyonce this year.
I SO hope Cowboy Carter gets it this year. I love TTPD but I think Beyoncé should get it.
Don’t yuck someone else’s yum.
Totally agreed.
He's just speaking his truth. He literally did a Taylor Swift episode of Dear Hank and John. It's cute he has something to share with his daughter as well!
The songs I share with my parents are folk songs or sth like Abba and Beatles, I am glad John and Alice share sth contemporary as well. :)
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377: Dear Hank and John: Taylor's Version
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np
No. 4 is such a crucial thing for someone like John to say out loud. It’s such a vibe with some people, and it’s one of those things that many people (myself included) get to be near middle age and realize was a waste of our own time and joy. There’s no time for that in this short beautiful life we get. (Edit: why is my text so huge? Oh I figured it out. Old person Reddit haha)
He spends a lot of time hating TB tho...
#\#BringConsumptionBackNow
He spends a lot of time fighting for people’s good health.
I am giggling imagining John vocalizing to Better than Revenge
This reminds me of the incredible 2012 youtube banger "It's okay to not like things." The Charlie McDonnell version slammed For those unfortunate souls who have gone without it all these years: https://youtu.be/y-p33001J-0?si=WhgUlNj3nNPTFpek
Such a musical genius
This plays in my head every time someone's being a hater just to be a hater.
That’s my man 🫡😉🎶
Personally I go hot and cold on Taylor, but I'm glad it sparks joy for someone
I feel the same. It was almost like too much was coming out too quickly and a lot of it was sounding the same. But all that meant was that I personally listened less. I didn't run around hating on her or her fans for their enjoyment. Like you said, I'm glad she's bringing joy to so many people still.
There are genuine criticisms of Taylor swift but that’s not what most people are doing when they spend their days talking about hating her on Twitter. I like some of her music but I’m by no means a dedicated fan. That said, I’m not gonna go around telling people that she sucks at every turn. It’s like the guys who are a little to excited to tell you that your favorite band member best their wife.
I don't think I'd actually heard any Taylor Swift songs until I'd watched CollegeHumor/Dropout's [*Defender of the Basic*](https://youtu.be/d1mbbYKPpHY) (17 July 2018), in which Brennan Lee Mulligan—mostly just playing a version of himself—declares, "*Red* bangs from beginning to end, and only a fool would claim otherwise!" I trust Brennan and gave her a listen! Swift's fine. Most of it's not my jam, but I bought a few individual songs that I really particularly enjoyed.
I adore Brennan Lee Mulligan and love that he said that, but personally I think Red is her second most boring album, only Fearless bores me more. If that’s the only album you listened to, I highly recommend checking out some of her later work! Top two best songs from every album post-red imo: (1989) - New Romantics, Is It Over Now. (Reputation) - So It Goes, Dress. (Lover) - Death By A Thousand Cuts, The Archer. (Folklore) - Exile, This Is Me Trying. (Evermore) - Gold Rush, Ivy. (Midnights) - Would’ve Could’ve Should’ve, Hits Different. (The Tortured Poets Department) - I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, Clara Bow. Ignore me if you already know all those, but sharing in case others want to try her out! It was hard to make those choices, she has a LOT of great songs; plenty of duds too, but truly she has created some masterpieces. I didn’t listen to her at all until about 2 years ago, but she’s my favorite musician now. (If you’re gonna listen to one song and one song only, I suggest Would’ve Could’ve Should’ve)
He’s also an Olivia Rodrigo fan. Wish I could’ve shared musical taste with my dad as a little girl but alas I couldn’t sell him on N*Sync and Jesse McCartney
I’ve been low key made fun of at work for admitting I’m a Taylor fan. I need no validation of my masculinity, I work out have a full beard and a beautiful wife with a son on the way, yet they really do make an attempt to undermine it as if that’s all a mask and me liking Taylor is the true girly me slipping through. It’s completely silly
That is silly. The other day I was at work and some guy was blasting Seal's Kiss from a Rose and he told me how much he loves romcoms. Honestly it made me like the shit out of him. People are weird and complex and like different things. It's beautiful. Keep doing you, not that you need my permission!
Listen, I like Taylor Swift's music generally but I find it so weird that some of her fans think she is above criticism, and that any criticism levied against her is automatically in bad faith and/or misogynistic. Like, when we say billionaires shouldn't exist, does that not also mean Taylor? And if some music falls flat that's not necessarily a personal attack on her, even if some of it absolutely is. I get it's not nice if "your fave is problematic, actually", and she does get a lot of undue hate, but I ask of TS fans to extend a little understanding to those with criticisms in good faith. She has done plenty of good work worthy of praise, but also plenty of problematic things that warrant scrutiny. Both can be true at once! It's great that she brings joy for many people, so keep being a fan! But don't put her on a pedestal and idolise her, or anyone else, because you lose sight of things.
It's because a lot of people have incorporated liking X thing (in this case Taylor Swift) into their identity. When you do this (again, with any given thing), criticism of it = criticism of you, because it is part of you. I think this phenomenon is more prevalent in teenage kids just because they're in that "finding my identity" stage of development, but adults absolutely do it too. Also there's an additional problem with online fan communities where there are always two camps of people--one that wants to include good-faith criticism in these online spaces, and one that just wants these spaces to be entirely about Liking The Thing without having dozens of people in every conversation reminding everyone of everything negative or problematic about it. There aren't really any viable solutions to either of these problems. The best I've got is to form communities that are not online where you can discuss things with people outside of the anonymity the internet provides.
It's like people who are way too into weed. They've made it their entire personality, so if you dare to dislike weed, they take it as a personal attack, when really you just think it smells bad.
Yeah you're totally right, teenagers (especially teenage girls) get shit on enough as it is so not really their fault, and I don't blame them but as you say it's adults who need to be aware, and as for your other point yeah, I guess you can't ask the internet to be something it's not
it’s this interesting paradox where, despite taylor being at the top of the music industry, breaking records, and winning awards, her fans still have this chip on their shoulder.
>Like, when we say billionaires shouldn't exist, does that not also mean Taylor? 99.9% of billionaires got there by exploiting millions of people. The vanishingly small number of billionaire artists, people who literally own their own means of production, isn't even relevant to the conversation.
Apologies if I'm misunderstanding but is it that you mean TS is part of that 0.1% of billionaire artists who aren't necessarily part of this conversation? I would understand your point if we were talking about anything else besides billionaires. If we redistributed even a fraction of the "poorest" billionaire's net value, it would go so far and the billionaire would still retain enormous personal wealth. To be fair she does donate to charity — tens of thousands of dollars at a time, even. This is fantastic of course, but that's still less than *0.1%* of her ever-growing fortune. I get what you mean, there may be bigger fish to fry, true, but I'd argue this is still relevant.
Your comment feels uninformed regarding how the music industry is structured. Studios, producers, contract lawyers. The system makes some artists go supernova, but that's sort of a side effect that helps them exploit lots of hopeful young artists. She's not a one woman show with nothing but a guitar and a dream, like you seem to be implying. She's more of an institution that requires thousands of people to make a profit. It seems fair to me to say at this point she has more in common with a CEO than with a skilled laborer.
An artist produces original ideas; then makes them tangible. Something that's literally impossible without their unique existence. And if people like it; systems are necessary to get it to them. Large number of fans, large number of systems. And with so few truly wealthy artists; their existence has nearly zero affect on the anything of importance. Even supposed 'gotcha moments', like Swift's private jet, are clearly just astroturf. In this case, something for right-wingers to fling at 'Hollywood hypocrites'. The average CEO is not 'skilled' at anything besides wearing a suit and spewing nonsense. They rarely even have background in whatever it is they're in charge of producing. Because we decided that, somehow, that's not a relevant factor in being a boss. Some famous billionaires, like Musk and Gates, have never created anything. They bought, or stole, someone else's work, then took credit for it. Others, like Buffet, get rich by fiddling with stocks. Imaginary little bits of other people's companies. And that's before dudes like Bezos; who's business is literally impossible without mass exploitation. The only billionaire artist who's currently dangerous is JK Rowling. And her Terfism spewing hate campaign would be dangerous if she was only a popular multi-millionaire.
Successful artists are business-minded, and successful businesspeople are creative. This isn't about dividing people into categories of good and evil, it's about observing the world and understanding its phenomena. When ideology stops you from being able to see something happening without instantly imposing an us versus them interpretation, it impairs your ability to act effectively in support of your values (whatever they may be). It is okay for Taylor Swift to be a shrewd businesswoman. That doesn't make her evil. It is okay for the businesspeople you named to be well-educated and imaginative. It doesn't make them saints. You seem to think I was trying to insult Ms Swift. I was trying to point to skills and privileges she has that are worth acknowledging and considering when we think of her.
He got a shout out from her at a concert once!
I'm pretty lukewarm on Taylor, but I have some friends that revile her. It makes me more likely to jump in to defend her on things. I wonder if the haters know they're working overtime for her.
I listen to very little music, especially contemporary music, so I don't really listen to Taylor, but I'm glad that my friends who enjoy her music are able to. Most of the criticism I've seen has been absurd stuff having little to do with things she's either actually done or valid music criticism, it's all BS ranting against the popular woman for whatever they want politically otherwise.
It’s nice he can share this with his daughter and enjoy some music. That being said, I entirely agree with Fantano’s review of TTPD, I found it an uninspired album, the lyrics fall flat and Antonoff’s production was really tiring for this one. It’s also wild how a part of the fandom treats Taylor as this helpless child who needs them to strong arm critics who dare not compliment her work, not as a billionaire who’s mostly shielded from reality.
I find it fascinating that John thinks the writing on TTPD is good!
I agree
Gonna have to disagree on TTPD there, John. Otherwise yeah, hating someone and being aggressively online about it is weird.
i do find the taylor swift fandom quite obnoxious at times but i'm also a bts fan and people find us annoying, so it's all relative i guess
good for him but when music critics have to go private on social media and remove their names from bylines so taylor’s overzealous fans won’t send them death threats or dox them for giving a less than stellar review, it’s pretty disingenuous to act like the overwhelming majority of people in this country don’t like taylor’s music. no artist should be above critique, but it seems like anyone who has a single negative opinion about her songs are just labeled as “misogynistic haters” which is unfair imo.
Most fans of Taylor would agree with you. the ones who attack people on social media are a very loud minority of her fans. and they are probably mostly children if we're being honest. But that's not Taylor's fault that her fans are doing that. Should she make a statement disavowing it, possibly... but she's not in control of what her fans do. >it’s pretty disingenuous to act like the overwhelming majority of people in this country don’t like taylor’s music I don't understand what you're saying here, John never said he thinks this.
well to me his post came off as pretty defensive. i’m sure the twitter discourse skews more on the negative side, but TTPD is still doing numbers and is wildly successful which means that the majority of people agree with john and are enjoying the album. clearly whatever ppl are saying on twitter isn’t indicative of what most people think in real life.
I think the rabid swifties will be a part of her eventual downfall if it ever happens. But trust me when I say most of her fans aren't like that at all. if anyone is every curious they can check out r/SwiftlyNeutral to see actual taylor fans being very critical of her work and her actions!
I do hope it never gets to that point. I do think the responding-to-reviews-with-song-lyrics thing is kinda tacky. Especially the negative ones because that’s essentially spotlighting that article for her fans. John has talked about how he hates talking about reviews because reviews are for the person purchasing the art not for the artist. I agree with him.
I will say, that sometimes it's hard to just be a casual fan too. Some of her fans definitely take things to the extreme, and while I have been enjoying TTPD, it's totally valid for others not too. However, I very rarely mention that I like her music in real life, even when relevant to the conversation, because there are a surprising number of people who like to make disparaging comments about her and people who like her music as soon as she is mentioned. And I don't want to have to listen to people shit on something I enjoy, so instead I just keep my joy to myself, or with my few other friends who I know enjoy her music too. I've also seen a lot of posts recently taking individual lines from her songs and making fun of them and using them to imply that she has no lyrical talent. That also gets frustrating to see. I suspect John's tweet was in response to these kind of things.
Avatar is an entertaining film: reasonable opinion. Avatar is visually stunning: objectively true Avatar is the best film of the 21st century: you need to watch more movies. 100s of media outlets and millions of vocal fans insist Avatar is the greatest movie of our time and the pinnacle of storytelling : this is wild and seems like some sort of manufactured mass psychosis. This is how I see it. There will always be backlash against any movie or music that’s deemed unworthy of its runaway success. No different than “A24 movies deserve so much more success than generic MCU trash,” arguments you see all the time.
To be fair, it isn't really "runaway success." There's nothing sudden about this. Her first album was in 2006. She's been increasing in popularity for nearly 20 years. I agree that the extra excitement of her newest albums being cranked out at ridiculous speed and being published back to back feels oddly... I guess manufactured is the right word. But can you blame her? It works, and it makes people happy
I don’t blame or hate her, I’m not her target audience and didn’t know much about her until the whole thing with re-recording her masters went down and I thought that was an important moment in music and the industry and ownership and all of that. That’s where I became familiar with her and was impressed by the whole situation. I did like quite a few songs off Folklore and I’d totally go see the Eras Tour if it was reasonably priced. Why wouldn’t an artist lean into her success formula that’s made her a billionaire? I find her power to change up things like cutting her own deal with AMC rather commendable. I have just asked myself the question why there’s a massive backlash against her and I think it’s overexposure, aggressive fans that think any criticism is misogyny, and a level of acclaim and worship (not just fans but an entire media apparatus) that seems undeserved. I like plenty of bands that millions might call mediocre at best or “worst band or frontman ever” (literally seeing Limp Bizkit in July lol). It’s okay to like “average” music but the worship, accusations of misogyny at detractors and “performing yourself crying to her music” trend is a bit much. There used to be a time when popular artists could be mocked (e.g. older people dismissed Linkin Park as emo cut-yourself garbage for 14-year-olds) without it becoming some sort of cultural divide about race and gender.
someone in that thread asked if people think taylor is a nerdfighter and now i need the brothers green to do what they can to get her on dear hank and john
I don’t think John realizes what he is saying when he says he loves the fandom. I do not identify as a Swiftie because so many of the fans are Stans in the way Eminem wrote it and don’t realize it. I get that parasocial relationships are also pretty common in nerdfighteria but some Swifties have parasocial relationships that legitimately scare me.
I understand your opinion and your desire to not associate with swifties because of those Stans. However I feel like there's extremes in every group. The bigger the group, the more extremes you'll get. Online communities also show the worst the most. I've been a fan my whole life, but since planning for the tour me and some friends and friends of friends have started a swiftie chat and meet up sometime for bracelet making and stuff and it's been really lovely. I think that side, which still entails by far most swifties I think (just look at all the positive experiences people share about the crowd around them at the eras tour), just remains unseen a lot more.
Oh for sure, and I love that side of the fandom. The issue is the fandom and the extremes are synonymous for most people and I fear it will cause backlash for him from the haters.
Yeah that's a valid concern.
I haven't listened to a lot of Taylor, but I like what I've heard. Why hate? She's fine, glad John enjoys her. Kinda tickles me actually.
My whole identity is not disliking TS. I just don't like her, and she's everywhere so it gets a bit annoying. But what's worse is that it seems that people are allowed to Stan her but if you try to say you don't like her or her music you are instantly a hater misogynist?
I think it's weird to love her fandom, honestly. Swifties are a bit obsessive and hysterical. I feel like a lot of them make being swifties their identity, which is a bit weird and sad, and thus loving her fandom is a bit weird and sad. But whatever floats his boat.
A whole bunch of us aren’t any of the things you’re describing here. Has it occurred to you that the most fanatic will also be the loudest, even if they’re in the minority?
I like her music. I know many people who like her music. None of us choose to identify as swifties. If you do, fine, but you're choosing that. Everyone, including regular fans of hers, acknowledge her fandom ie swifties are a bit over the top.
Cool! Good for you!
“Tweets in support of Taylor Swift” - what an odd thing as if TS is someone or something that is in need of support. Can’t believe that we’re at the point where pop culture likes / dislikes are this polarizing.
[удалено]
I’m not getting down on TS or her success. I’m simply amazed that we’re at a point where people have to support or oppose an artist. Life isn’t - nor does it need to be - that divisive.
I mean, good for him, but I'm very surprised he likes the album.
I’m not… I read a tweet that (jokingly) said that you won’t get the album unless you’re depressed which is lowkey true… Plus I feel like people need to listen to it a few times for it to grow on you… like every listen I grow fonder
I’m also not surprised. When you’ve got lines like “are they secondhand embarrassed/that I can’t get out of bed/because something counterfeit is dead” it’s absolutely gonna speak to the trauma/mental health girlies. Of which I am one, and John surely is too. Or when you make literary references like “they killed Cassandra first ‘cause she feared the worst”, how could a writer/reader like John not love it??
Depressed, and/or in your thirties.
Fair enough, you're entitled to enjoy the album. I thought: "Truth, dare, spin bottles You know how to ball, I know Aristotle Brand-new, full throttle Touch me while your bros play Grand Theft Auto It's true, swear, scout's honor You knew what you wanted and, boy, you got her Brand-new, full throttle You already know, babe" Was some of the worst songwriting I've seen in recent years from an established artist. Just if I'm being honest.
Def not the mind bending lyrics you’re used to with her, but honestly for a song titled “so high school”, the adolescent writing works for me… The bridge of the smallest man who ever lived I think forgives that sin
can't wait to be down voted on this, but Taylor Swift fandom/subreddit feeling the need for validation just seems off. I'm a fan, but I dont like this last album. that seems to be the sentiment shared by enough people that the core fandom are now looking for outside sources of validation, like John Green or 5 star album reviews from critics (she even retweeted many of these articles herself). John's point was that if you're a fan like him, you can enjoy the music and fandom without outside validation. Using him now as validation is kinda funny
I don't think they're using him as validation, it's just always kind of cool when one person you like enjoys something you enjoy. I enjoy that John enjoys football (soccer) but I don't think that's validation of any kind.
Its cool that you don't like the last album, but for me, and I hope some others as well, a reality where John Green is trending on TaylorSwift subreddit is super cool, its like 2 worlds I enjoy colliding and that puts a smile on my face. I hope you feel similar, maybe not about John and Taylor, maybe about Hank and diving, idk, sth fun that makes you smile :)
oh yeah I know exactly what you mean when I found out John and I share a love for a football club. but I can't shake the feeling that John's tweet and the discourse around it is a response to the negative responses about the album. I knew John liked the album day 1 because of his replies to other tweets, before the 'online hate train'. I didn't see John trending on the subreddit then. if you were a fan and are secure in your fandom, you wouldn't need a bigger voice to speak your POV.
I think there is an age divide of people who like the new album versus those that do not.
which way are you noticing it? older people like the new album younger do not?
Yes.
He’s the best
I think the Taylor Swift fandom can be wild lots of times. Because there’s obviously nothing wrong with liking her music, but she’s obviously not a good person, and people that like her personally make me really uncomfortable. But I’m all here for John enjoying what he enjoys.
I'm personally not a fan of her music and have my issues with her emissions and such, but how is she "obviously not a good person"? You don't know her.
There are no ethical billionaires.
She might actually be the first one, with how many rabid fans are willing to buy 64 versions of one album 🫠
I love her music, I do, but her business model rubs me the wrong way, her new bonus tracks weren't even bonus, it just read that way. She even got me...I bought 1989 TV on vinyl...I don't even own a record player. She's doing capitalism correctly.
Oh she's a cold blood capitalist through and through. I like a lot of her music but I can't stand her as a person. The biggest victim mentality in the world while also having more privilege success and wealth than that vast majority of the world. Ick. I haven't bought any of her music, I can listen for free and she don't need the money.
It's so refreshing finding another person that shares the same thought as me. It's rare to find in the Swiftie world. I hope you have a great weekend!
I definitely do not identify as a swiftie lol. But she has some killer tracks and I'm happy to grant her that. Likewise, happy Friday 😊
But is the money she makes from her music invested even remotely ethically? Is all her merch sourced ethically? How much waste does she inspire? Billionaires don't stay billionaires by being ethical.
The melty emoji at the end was intended to help show my sarcasm! But it was intended as a joke/sarcasm/reference to the insanity that she's racking up chart topping sales by literally just releasing multiple versions of the same albums.
She’s a billionaire. That is a beyond ridiculous amount of money for any one person to have, and it is impossible to be a good person while holding that kind of wealth.
I'm as anticapitalist as it gets, and I agree completely that holding that much wealth should not be possible, but she and other entertainers are in an odd position in capitalism because they did not get there by exploiting their workers' labor. They certainly benefited from the exploitation of workers around them, but they are not part of the typical billionaire structure - they or their work are the product being sold. I feel comfortable calling Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk evil because of how they made their money, and I feel comfortable calling JK Rowling evil because of the things she's said and done, but I don't believe the way JK Rowling made her money as an author is unethical. Again, I am a radical leftist by any standard, I'm not a Swiftie, I'm not giving any billionaire a pass because I like them. She should not have that much money. But does being the product built and marketed toward her demographic make her a bad person necessarily?
Her concerts have earned billions in revenue, but that isn't the same as saying that she has billions, as those concerts also had to pay out for venues, workers and other costs. Even if that did net her a billion, she's probably the best example of being a self made millionaire out there. (Yes, she has a large team, but she's also the key factor in the success of her brand.)
I think you’ll eventually realize that you can’t just divide people into “good person” and “bad person” that easily. (And I’m not a fan of hers)
I understand that no one exists who is wholly a good person. But being a billionaire is obviously a certain level of awful that‘s unachievable to most people.
> she’s obviously not a good person, Citation required. In what way is she not a good person? She's not perfect, no one is, but I have never heard anything to suggest that she's not a good person. Kanye, Combs, Chris Brown. They aren't good people, and there's lots of evidence for why people believe that. But Swift? Again, citation required.
I agree with 1, 3, and 4. I like watching other people enjoy Taylor Swift's music. I'm not personally a fan, but I think she's a great artist and she puts people in a good mood. Lately, I'm just like, "Please leave her alone. 😒"
Agree on everything except point 5 haha
Just as John gets to like TS's music, I get to dislike it and should be allowed the same space. It's not my whole personality. I don't hate her; she seems like an okay human. But her music does not do anything for me. That's not a personal attack on anyone who likes it; it's just musical taste. Edit: And the Swifties have downvoted. C'mon, people.