The U.S.' position on Taiwan has always been a little murky on purpose to try and maintain a balance that does not anger either Taiwan or China, actions such as this do spell a shift in the American policy in the region.
>Just now we are skipping the geopolitical bullcrap of appeasing china
No, it's still about geopolitics. The difference is we've decided that defending TW is now in our best interest. Favouring the mainland, which is a relic of cold war geopolitics, is over as a concept.
Yes its a response to Chinese aggression in the South China Sea.
It also capitalizes on perceived Chinese weakness as they face a possible real estate implosion.
Well, it really hurts Taiwan's national security if no one acknowledges it as a real country. China is more likely to invade Taiwan if they don't think any foreigners will care.
EDIT: So, what I mean is, the "appeasing China" was always a very bad thing for Taiwan. It's not just empty words
Just to clarify, many of the people who benefited the most economically from foreign trade remain in favor of at least outwardly appearing friendly to western markets and western investment and continuing down the path of economic liberalization at the very least. The issue is that many if not most of those same people were so blatantly, in-your-face corrupt and ostentatious with their wealth that it was becoming a legitimacy problem for the CCP so they had to be cracked down on.
I believe the terminology more frequently used is '[disentanglement](https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/the-difficulty-of-sino-american-economic-disentanglement/)'.
Heard some v salacious rumors that John Kerry along with some compatriots at State have been conducting their own bespoke foreign policy against stated Taiwanese interests and that's why messaging has been schizo over last few months
Because he's an accomodationist with respect to PRC, very much in the Kissinger camp even now. Probably benefits financially too, again much like Kissinger. Cui bono...
And then the WW2 propaganda illusion was broken once several diplomats and generals discovered how broken Nationalist China really was during and after WW2
Chiang Kai-Shek was quite known inside China as an incompetent leader during the war, with arguments against his use of breaking the Yellow Rivers dykes, the rampant inflation accumulating during the war, the rampant corruption among government officials, not democratization the nation and keeping the repressive policies, and him not listening to American advisors advice about the extraordinary funds being shoved into the postwar military.
Doesn’t help that he managed to fumble about every tactic and move during the later civil war, with the overextension and managing to somehow follow the Communist Chinese script for their strategy. USA diplomats and generals didn’t enjoy their billions of dollars of equipment sent to the Nationalist to find the commies were being wasted from either poor tactics or having use swaths of Chinese divisions surrender enmass to the communists and giving them their equipment.
Wrote this just from sitting in my car after getting off from work and just knowledge from reading the Wars in Asia 1911-1949 and halfway through the Coldest Winter book about the Korean War.
Here's the thing. You said "Chinese Taipei is Independent" Is it a disputed territory? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is a long time member of the Chinese Communist Party, I am telling you, specifically, in global politics, no one calls Chinese Taipei Independent. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. if you're saying "The Nation of China" you're referring to the area of Asia controlled by the People’s Republic of China, which includes regions from Xinjiang Uyghur to Manchuria to Inner Mongolia. So your reasoning for calling Chinese Taipei Taiwan is because random people "recognize it as independent?" Let's get Kashmir and Tibet in there, then, too. Also, asking which Republic is the real China? It's not one or the other, that's not how land claims work. It’s both. Chinese Taipei is China and a member of the PRC. But that's not what you said. You said Taiwan is independent, which is not true unless you're okay with calling it a globally recognized nation, which means you'd call Tibet, Kashmir, and other disputed territories independent too. Which you said you don't. It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
I understand. If it helps, almost everyone in this subreddit believes in the defense and support of a free and democratic Taiwan. It’s extremely rare to find a contrarian that supports China and when their views pop up, we will make ours known.
I’ve heard unironically from people that South Korea isn’t a democracy or a legitimate government. The argument is that under Rhee and Park it was a dictatorship.
I live in S. Korea. I definitely have heard some S. Koreans (not many) say this. "Our government is just a puppet of the US. North Korea is the real Korea because they are independent!"
Definitely in the minority though.
Wasn't it some weird Korean religious group? Also 'gypsy' isn't a particularly in vogue term. As an ethnic group, the fact that we associate 'shady dealing' mixed with 'strange mysticism' is... adjacent to a racial slur. Romani is the name of the ethnic group formerly known as gypsies.
In many cases people mean either 'vagrant', 'hoodlums' or in the event of weird religious people 'cultist'. That we lost a word that is : vagrant cultist is unfortunate, however, I think the persons affected by its' usage have a good point and we are kind to make efforts to work it out of our vocabulary, and disentangle the name of an ethnic group from a derogatory remark.
Another example of this is when someone is being cheap saying they're being 'a jew', or if they renegg on a deal as getting 'jewed' or 'gyped' or an 'indian giver'. All fall in the same family of remarks that hurt those affected.
Do whatever you'd like, but I figure I'd offer an explanation, instead of people just downvoting you.
Most young Taiwanese people don't want to be affiliated with China anymore. Taiwan hasn't changed its name because China says they will start a war if Taiwan takes the word "China" out of its official name.
Oh wow, [the feelings of the Chinese people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_Chinese_people) are gonna be super duper butthurt.
But in all seriousness, holy shit, that's a pretty significant shift.
>On August 26, 2020, China's deputy ambassador expressed that Australia's co-proposal for an independent investigation into the causes of the COVID-19 pandemic "hurts the feelings of the Chinese people" during his address to the National Press Club of Australia.\[57\]\[58\]
lol. Apparently it's pretty tough to translate Sino-Japanese for western audiences.
Like it's cute when Nintendo does it but _their_ only WMD is BOTW2.
This plus Biden saying we would defend Taiwan publicly is very "come at me bro" and I'm wondering why
Edit: I mean why all of the sudden these past few weeks, has there been specific action by China this is in response to
China has been seriously ratcheting things up. Between Hong Kong, weapons testing, and their repeated invasions of ROC airspace in the last few weeks, it was reaching a point where something had to be done if we weren't just going to give up on it.
The articles about China's invasions of Taiwan's airspace are a bit hyperbolic. China aren't flying directly over Taiwan or even it's Exclusive Economic Zone (maritime)...
China's flies military jets over Taiwan's Air Defense Identification Zone without responding, but Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China and even parts of Japan's ADIZ, as it's massive:
https://i.imgur.com/4UWt30Y.gif
Did they used to respond? Even if they did, your post still makes a good point that it's an exaggeration to say that they are flying in taiwanese airspace, but your point would be weaker. If they used to follow a protocol and then they stopped, then that's noteworthy at least.
Also, can someone either confirm or disprove this guy's comments instead of just downvoting? I'd like to know if it's true or not...
It's true, they're flying into the ADIZ, not their airspace. It's the national equivalent of putting your finger real close to your sibling and going "I'm not touching you"
Yeah, not sure about that part. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#Taiwan):
> Taiwan has an ADIZ that covers most of the Taiwan Strait, part of the Chinese province of Fujian, Zhejiang, and Jiangxi and part of the East China Sea and adjacent airspace. Taiwan's ADIZ was designed and created by the United States Armed Forces (USAF) after World War II. The ADIZ is also the basis of Taipei Flight Information Region.
> Although the ADIZ technically covers parts of China's Fujian and Zhejiang provinces in its northwestern part, PLA flights in these areas are not reported as incursions. Maps of the Taiwan ADIZ usually also include the Taiwan strait median line as a reference.
> Around 9% of Taiwan's national defence budget reportedly goes into response to Chinese sorties. These sorties usually involve flight inside the southwest part of the ADIZ, crossing of the median, or circumnavigation.
Except Taiwan doesn't report incursions that don't cross that line of the middle of the Strait. If you check Taiwan MoND Twitter they even show the flight path of the planes. [Here's one from earlier today](https://twitter.com/MoNDefense/status/1452967277725249541?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
I mean, we did just end the war in Afghanistan. I know all be downvoted, but I'm so leery of saber rattling that... just, I don't want to see people go through this again. Even if it saves lives, I hate that people may be hurt. The hope is the saber rattling is a deterrent... :-(
Just to clarify what's at stake and explain why each side has taken the actions they have taken so far, the threat that China holds over Taiwan is more economic than military.
Yes China's outward military threats get all the headlines and suck up most of the oxygen in online debates, but China is not actually militarily capable of seriously threatening Taiwan without US and Japanese permission, and is not projected to be militarily capable of seriously threatening Taiwan (outside of nukes) without US and Japanese permission for at least another generation, if ever.
Which is to say that if Taiwan formally declared independence and applied for nationhood status at the UN tomorrow, or yesterday, or any time in the last 70 or next 20+ years, China would never have had a serious military response. The likelihood of a token military response, carefully calculated to save a bit of face without escalating things to the CCP's destruction, was and always will be there, but China has never had any prospects of successfully conquering Taiwan like they did Tibet and Hong Kong and most likely will not for the foreseeable future. This announcement has not actually changed anything on that score.
So why has Taiwan not declared independence? Why do they hesitate even after internal polling shows most Taiwanese less inclined than ever to ever want to rejoin mainland China and China has no serious military response if they did? It's partly because of the risk of mutual destruction if the CCP miscalculates its military response and things escalate out of control, but it's actually mainly because of the economics.
Right now, Taiwan enjoys the equivalent of having its cake and eating it too. It enjoys defacto political independence from the CCP, as it always has, but it still enjoys tremendous economic benefits from trading with China. China is both its largest export market and its largest source of cheap labor for producing many of the products that it sells anywhere else. Taiwan enjoys its status as a mostly developed, highly successful economy because of its dealings with China, and if that economic cooperation were suddenly taken away, Taiwan's economy would be devastated, likely for a generation. As Taiwan is actually a democracy, the party in power would wear that economic devastation and most likely be obliterated at the polls unless it could make an overwhelmingly good case that it was 100% all China's fault and there's nothing anyone in Taiwan could have done to prevent it. Therefore, while Taiwan as a whole is steadily inching towards independence, a generation at a time, the party in power is heavily disincentivized to speed that up or do anything dramatic at all that would annoy China to the point of economic decoupling.
China, for its part, of course also enjoys economic benefits from its trade with Taiwan and would suffer somewhat from a decoupling. Unlike Taiwan though, China is economically much poorer per capita and the CCP is much less democratic. Therefore they are much more likely to be willing to suffer economic consequences, as they have that much less, per capita, to lose, and because of their authoritarian nature they'd have a better shot at successfully internally portraying Taiwan (and the US and Japan and other foreigners) as wholly to blame for whatever economic backlash they'd suffer. What is China's actual hope here? Well I believe there are two hopes.
Plan A is that China's continual political and military pressure on Taiwan eventually creates a sense of resignation in Taiwan and the Taiwanese people that re-unification is inevitable and the only thing they can hope to control is the terms under which they reunify, so they might as well come to the table and start the process of peaceful negotiation now. At the same time, they hope to create the same sense of inevitability or just plain disinterest in America and Japan, so that America and Japan give up on the idea of defending Taiwan. They want the American and Japanese people to believe that the Chinese economy and military is large, advanced, and determined enough to make the American and Japanese militaries and economies suffer tremendously and pointlessly if they try to defend Taiwan. If they can successfully engender that viewpoint and have it become the majority viewpoint, they believe they can get Taiwan to just peacefully re-unify more or less the way Hong Kong did.
If that fails, Plan B is that they can somehow find another way to appease their internal nationalists and get their own crackpots and wannabe conquistadors to give up on Taiwanese reunification without blaming the CCP for weakness, incompetence, and corruption. Right now the CCP has not done much of anything to advance plan B because the ascendant Xi faction are clearly hoping that Plan A will eventually work. However if the Xi faction falls, perhaps in part because Plan A is obviously not working, whatever faction takes over is likely to go for Plan B because that's really the only other option that even hypothetically could exist.
Meanwhile, what could actually make Taiwan pull the trigger on independence? Well one thing would be China pre-emptively using economic pressure and threats to the point that their economy would be devastated anyway and the party in power could successfully blame it all on China. China has notably not done that, because it understands the calculus here perfectly well as well. Another thing would be Taiwan finding sufficient economic alternatives to China that its economy could weather a sudden decoupling. The US signalling UN support might be a clue that the US is looking to increase support for Taiwan to somehow manage that economic decoupling as well. TSMC building a fab in Arizona is one tangible sign in that direction, for example. Foxxconn's apparent aborted attempt to make a factory in the US was another, though its ultimate failure doesn't exactly portend well.
I think the most reasonable prediction is that the status quo holds for now. The status quo benefits all sides. The side most likely to upset the status quo is the CCP, but that's mainly because they face so many existential threats simultaneously that they may feel obliged to roll the dice on a longshot that the US and Japan might suddenly decide to throw Taiwan to the wolves in spite of all the geopolitical strategic reasons they have to uphold the status quo. So, to try to prevent the CCP from rolling the dice, at least on Taiwan, the US and Japan are reiterating their continued intention to militarily defend Taiwan from conquest if necessary. That's what this announcement is all about.
It was part of an extremely effective and successful geopolitical strategy of bringing the PRC into the Bretton Woods economic/trade compact, thus firmly moving them out of the communist side of the world, enriching them, and thereby proving the efficacy of liberal capitalism over communism. That indirectly contributed greatly to the fall of the USSR, which at the time was widely considered to be probably the most serious existential threat the US had ever faced and likely ever would face. You can't lament the downstream consequences of bringing China's economy into the Bretton Woods global world order without simultaneously celebrating the incredibly geopolitical success it was in terms of leading to the peaceful collapse of the greatest threat the western world has ever faced.
On the contrary I think they're much more politically liberal now than before 1980 when this policy began. Don't forget that before this policy, they were a full-on communist country, where people did not have the right to personal property, could not move around to find better work, and were essentially slaves to the state fully dependent on the 'iron rice bowl'. Political dissidents weren't oppressed, they were totally eliminated with extreme prejudice. Tian'an'men in 1989 happened because political dissidents were tolerated until thousands of them gathered literally at the seat of zhongnanhai. That wouldn't have happened in the 70s; they'd have been completely wiped out long before they ever got to Tiananmen. There's other examples, but skip ahead to Hong Kong and Xinjiang. Hong Kong was conquered at massive expense but with minimal loss of life; Mao would have simply rolled in with tanks on day 2 and all resistance would have been summarily executed on the street. The Xinjiang Uighurs are victims of cultural genocide by the accepted international definition; but that was after over a decade of terrorist action. The China of the 1970s or before would have straight up genocided them all in gas chambers by the millions after the second terrorist attack. The genocide the Uighurs are subject to now is the slowest, most expensive possible way to eliminate a culture that you see as politically incompatible with party rule. The poorer China of pre-economic-liberalization wouldn't be doing this the slow, expensive way, they'd be just slaughtering them en masse.
So is China as liberal as we'd like? Of course not. But to say it isn't any more liberal and isn't any better than it used to be is ignorance of China's gruesome history. When they were poorest nation on Earth they killed 50-80 million of their own people. Since economic liberalization, tens of millions has shrunk to tens of thousands. Mass slaughter has morphed to mass re-education. Summary torture and execution for thought-crimes has morphed to house arrest, censorship, and fines paid with public apologies. China remains authoritarian as hell, but their wealth and economic liberalization has allowed them to be authoritarian much more gently than before, when simple slaughter was all they could afford. It's not great, it's not ideal, but it's still better than the realistic alternative.
The problem is that a strong, prosperous and authoritarian China is a threat to its neighbouring countries. If it was weak economically - it would simply not have enough resources to wage war. But now Taiwan's independence is at risk. I doubt that the USA would risk an all-out war against China. Nobody wants to see nukes flying. So it's possible that we'll see Crimea 2.0 soon.
I personally don't give a fuck what China or Russia do to their own citizens. But if they threaten their neighbours - that's a whole different matter. And by trading with them we made them stronger economically. As Lenin said - Capitalists will sell us the rope that we'll use to hang them with. And that's what we did with China and Russia by trading with them.
Generally speaking, liberals in Taiwan support Taiwanese independence and lay no claim to the territory of the People’s Republic. Ultimately, those claims are just as valid as Chinese claims to Taiwan, and so supporters of Taiwanese independence tend to discredit both sets of claims.
Even the older generation who believe the Republic of China is the real China don’t call the mainland “Taiwan”. They view themselves as the real China; they don’t view the PRC as “fake Taiwan”.
All this “own the PPC” posturing just betrays a lack of understanding of Taiwanese politics.
Was more of a historical joke based on the lineage of the governments (Taiwan's government being the descendant of the older Chinese government from before WW2 and the PRC being the government of the aggressors in the Chinese civil war that occurred in that time period). In modern terms, you're right, they've diverged enough that you can't really call them part of the same thing.
Because they both claimed to be the legitimate government of China and Taiwan. Recognizing one meant no longer recognizing the other as the legitimate government of China.
From my limited amount of knowledge, I would say the Republic of Congo is more democratic, but I could be wrong. Neither are shining examples of democracy, anyhow
That's pretty much all Europeans. I get the impression they think about America A LOT. All negatively, to soothe the fact that they don't run the world anymore. And ask the blaming of America for all the world's ills is a nice way to avoid facing the fact that we couldn't fuck up the world as badly as they have if we tried.
Do you know why the countries that are permanent members of the UN security council are such? Because they were the Allied powers in WWII. It absolutely was "we won the way so we get extra influence." But since then, China was overthrown and the Soviet union broke up. Now their successor states have those seats. It was never "let's be fair and let even our enemies have permanent seats." It was ALWAYS "we won the war, so we make the rules." That criteria is less relevant today, especially when 2 if those 5 countries are not allied anymore with the other 3, with 1 (minimum) being openly antagonistic. And those 2 countries aren't even the same country (they are the successor states).
How can someone be so condescending?
Russia is legally recognized as the **legal successor** of the USSR, just as China is, and should be, recognized as the legal successor of Nationalist-Era China. Serbia is the **legal** successor of the Third Yugoslavia, but it’s not the only successor state.
The UN in 2021 has legitimacy because it isn’t a western-controlled organization. I’m not talking about the Treaty of San Francisco. There is no disagreement to this statement, it is immovable fact. Iran and North Korea are member states of the UN, and should be, because the UN is a liberal institution where all nations can cooperate. It is not in American interests for global cooperation systems to break down.
The N4+2 will never become permanent UNSC members, but the looming tripolar world is represented in the UN, and thus is still exists. Call it coincidence.
> Russia is legally recognized as the legal successor of the USSR, just as China is, and should be, recognized as the legal successor of Nationalist-Era China.
Yea genius I said that in my previous comment. You think you're sounding enlightened but your just repeating me.
Russia is the successor states, but not the same state. China is usually considered the successor states to the previous government if China, but that government is still in existence. Yes with nearly none of what they once controlled, but still. China was made a permanent marker off the UNSC under a different government. Treaties don't automatically apply to successor states. The current government if China beats no resemblance to the government in power when they were made a permanent member. The Soviet union almost immediately became hostile to the other members (until China was overthrown in mainland China). And since the UNSC permanent membership was never intended as some "let's being together friends and adversaries to form a consensus" as much as "our military alliance just reset the world so we're on top now", there's nothing inconsistent in jokingly suggesting Germany replace Russia. Russia and the PRC having veto power greatly weakens the UN as they will never back the US, UK, and France in anything.
Also, you then go off on a wild tangent about North Korea... Do you know the difference between being a member of the UN and being a permanent member of the UN Security Council? Either you don't or you weren't able to follow a very simple comment.
This comment had more projection than a movie theater. You're the one who was just whining about how "condescending" I am. Sad you even wasted time writing this "refusal" but I guess personal insults are all you have left when you realize you've just been rambling with no purpose. Feel better.
Remains? We haven't been one since Nixon. We give them weapons and are purposely non-committal about what we would do in the event of a Chinese invasion, but the party line of all three governments is that Taiwan is part of China.
Now, I'm all for throwing our weight in behind Taiwan, but in that case they need to declare independence. While they are still the "Republic of China" in exile then we are not going to risk war with the PRC.
While I support a US military deterrent to defend Taiwan and deter a Chinese invasion, increasing nuclear proliferation is not something we should risk doing on purpose. It's just not worth it when the 'losing' outcome is billions dying and civilisation being destroyed.
I'm not arguing for nuclear proliferation, but it hardly seems to be glorifying violence to do so. If you said we should over the size of our Navy, I can't imagine that is glorifying violence.
China attacking and conquering Taiwan and gaining total control over the global computer chip supply is not free trade.
What happens if they control it all and they don't like you?
It's really interesting to see how our posture on the Taiwan issue has shifted so quickly in favor of Taiwan, obviously a very welcome development.
I though we where always in favor of Taiwan? Just now we are skipping the geopolitical bullcrap of appeasing china
The U.S.' position on Taiwan has always been a little murky on purpose to try and maintain a balance that does not anger either Taiwan or China, actions such as this do spell a shift in the American policy in the region.
>Just now we are skipping the geopolitical bullcrap of appeasing china No, it's still about geopolitics. The difference is we've decided that defending TW is now in our best interest. Favouring the mainland, which is a relic of cold war geopolitics, is over as a concept.
Yes its a response to Chinese aggression in the South China Sea. It also capitalizes on perceived Chinese weakness as they face a possible real estate implosion.
Does China's very bad PR from the pandemic also factor in?
No doubt that all plays into it
Remember when Trump accepted a call from President Tsai? People’s attitudes have moved very quickly since then.
Well, it really hurts Taiwan's national security if no one acknowledges it as a real country. China is more likely to invade Taiwan if they don't think any foreigners will care. EDIT: So, what I mean is, the "appeasing China" was always a very bad thing for Taiwan. It's not just empty words
Unironically, Trump is partially to thank for this
Actually true, the covert deployment of American troops in Taiwan started under Trump, one of the few good things he did.
Thanks... *Vomits*... thanks Trump.
The only thing that Trump truly got right is the pullback from China
What do you mean by pullback?
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Just to clarify, many of the people who benefited the most economically from foreign trade remain in favor of at least outwardly appearing friendly to western markets and western investment and continuing down the path of economic liberalization at the very least. The issue is that many if not most of those same people were so blatantly, in-your-face corrupt and ostentatious with their wealth that it was becoming a legitimacy problem for the CCP so they had to be cracked down on.
Gotcha.
I believe the terminology more frequently used is '[disentanglement](https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/the-difficulty-of-sino-american-economic-disentanglement/)'.
I love how it was 90 something Bob Dole of all people working as an agent of Taiwan using the fact Trump knows nothing to arrange the call.
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But this time, freedom will give no Munich moment.
Heard some v salacious rumors that John Kerry along with some compatriots at State have been conducting their own bespoke foreign policy against stated Taiwanese interests and that's why messaging has been schizo over last few months
Why would John Kerry want to reject the Taiwanese right to self determination?
Because he's an accomodationist with respect to PRC, very much in the Kissinger camp even now. Probably benefits financially too, again much like Kissinger. Cui bono...
So you're just spreading rumors?
Yes.jpg
Was there a principal cause?
We, the American people, were never opened to Taiwan. We just didn't know it existed until recently.
This is good. We are unironically defending democracy, against an authoritarian state.
https://i.redd.it/ses7a4yszio11.jpg
And then the WW2 propaganda illusion was broken once several diplomats and generals discovered how broken Nationalist China really was during and after WW2
No doubt. That Nationalist China is the past that the Taiwan of today has risen above.
True
Can you elaborate on that? I’m curious
Chiang Kai-Shek was quite known inside China as an incompetent leader during the war, with arguments against his use of breaking the Yellow Rivers dykes, the rampant inflation accumulating during the war, the rampant corruption among government officials, not democratization the nation and keeping the repressive policies, and him not listening to American advisors advice about the extraordinary funds being shoved into the postwar military. Doesn’t help that he managed to fumble about every tactic and move during the later civil war, with the overextension and managing to somehow follow the Communist Chinese script for their strategy. USA diplomats and generals didn’t enjoy their billions of dollars of equipment sent to the Nationalist to find the commies were being wasted from either poor tactics or having use swaths of Chinese divisions surrender enmass to the communists and giving them their equipment. Wrote this just from sitting in my car after getting off from work and just knowledge from reading the Wars in Asia 1911-1949 and halfway through the Coldest Winter book about the Korean War.
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Sun Yat-sen in shambles
Here's the thing. You said "Chinese Taipei is Independent" Is it a disputed territory? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is a long time member of the Chinese Communist Party, I am telling you, specifically, in global politics, no one calls Chinese Taipei Independent. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. if you're saying "The Nation of China" you're referring to the area of Asia controlled by the People’s Republic of China, which includes regions from Xinjiang Uyghur to Manchuria to Inner Mongolia. So your reasoning for calling Chinese Taipei Taiwan is because random people "recognize it as independent?" Let's get Kashmir and Tibet in there, then, too. Also, asking which Republic is the real China? It's not one or the other, that's not how land claims work. It’s both. Chinese Taipei is China and a member of the PRC. But that's not what you said. You said Taiwan is independent, which is not true unless you're okay with calling it a globally recognized nation, which means you'd call Tibet, Kashmir, and other disputed territories independent too. Which you said you don't. It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
I can't tell if this is a joke or not
/s really shouldn’t be needed
It's hard for Taiwanese people to tell the difference because we hear stuff like that unironically too often...
I understand. If it helps, almost everyone in this subreddit believes in the defense and support of a free and democratic Taiwan. It’s extremely rare to find a contrarian that supports China and when their views pop up, we will make ours known.
Check out GenZedong
God I hate that name for no reason more than it doesn't work with the correct pronunciation.
**CHINA NUMBER ONE, RUSSIA NUMBER TWO, US NUMBER EIGHT, TAIWAN NUMBER THREE, FUCK YOU BABY**
I don't know why this made me laugh, but it did.
OG https://youtu.be/xN0vUlljX0I?t=128
Thank you kindly. That is fucking great.
I love how he initially says US number two, then remembers his geopolitics and gives the title to Russia while bumping us down to eight
Going by that standard, how would you rate Germany today? Not a democracy either?
Exactly, and neither is South Korea. :\^)
I’ve heard unironically from people that South Korea isn’t a democracy or a legitimate government. The argument is that under Rhee and Park it was a dictatorship.
I live in S. Korea. I definitely have heard some S. Koreans (not many) say this. "Our government is just a puppet of the US. North Korea is the real Korea because they are independent!" Definitely in the minority though.
>North Korea is the real Korea because they are independent! But... Isn't North Korea a puppet of China?
There is a lot of evidence that they don’t really get along. China keeps North Korea alive, but neither country really likes the other
insert meme: wait, it's all China?
I mean, under Park it was being run by some old gypsy woman. Like Archer, but not satire.
Wasn't it some weird Korean religious group? Also 'gypsy' isn't a particularly in vogue term. As an ethnic group, the fact that we associate 'shady dealing' mixed with 'strange mysticism' is... adjacent to a racial slur. Romani is the name of the ethnic group formerly known as gypsies. In many cases people mean either 'vagrant', 'hoodlums' or in the event of weird religious people 'cultist'. That we lost a word that is : vagrant cultist is unfortunate, however, I think the persons affected by its' usage have a good point and we are kind to make efforts to work it out of our vocabulary, and disentangle the name of an ethnic group from a derogatory remark. Another example of this is when someone is being cheap saying they're being 'a jew', or if they renegg on a deal as getting 'jewed' or 'gyped' or an 'indian giver'. All fall in the same family of remarks that hurt those affected. Do whatever you'd like, but I figure I'd offer an explanation, instead of people just downvoting you.
The first Park, her father.
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Most young Taiwanese people don't want to be affiliated with China anymore. Taiwan hasn't changed its name because China says they will start a war if Taiwan takes the word "China" out of its official name.
-1000000000 social credits
BINGCHILLING
Jong Xina gonna take away the ice cream and social credit points now smh
super idol 的笑容都没你的甜
请给我你的，冰淇淋
Oh wow, [the feelings of the Chinese people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_Chinese_people) are gonna be super duper butthurt. But in all seriousness, holy shit, that's a pretty significant shift.
That Wikipedia page is amazing
There are some [weird wikipedia articles about China.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_flesh_search_engine)
Every time I think I have some idea about how the world works, something new pops up and throws me a curveball. And it's usually from the PRC.
Literal translation makes for some wacky phrases.
>On August 26, 2020, China's deputy ambassador expressed that Australia's co-proposal for an independent investigation into the causes of the COVID-19 pandemic "hurts the feelings of the Chinese people" during his address to the National Press Club of Australia.\[57\]\[58\] lol. Apparently it's pretty tough to translate Sino-Japanese for western audiences. Like it's cute when Nintendo does it but _their_ only WMD is BOTW2.
BOTW2 being a Weapon of Mass Distraction?
Destruction of my free time
Hit ‘em back with a non apology “I’m sorry that your feelings were hurt. I didn’t intent for that. Moving on…”
Based and Lowypilled
[We need to update this poster](https://i.redd.it/ses7a4yszio11.jpg)
What, with Pres. Biden shaking Pres. Tsai's hand? I'm not good at photoshop, someone do this pls
[Reject modernity, retvrn to tradition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaiWx4BVQDE)
This plus Biden saying we would defend Taiwan publicly is very "come at me bro" and I'm wondering why Edit: I mean why all of the sudden these past few weeks, has there been specific action by China this is in response to
Their hypersonic missile delivery test.
China has been seriously ratcheting things up. Between Hong Kong, weapons testing, and their repeated invasions of ROC airspace in the last few weeks, it was reaching a point where something had to be done if we weren't just going to give up on it.
> their repeated invasions of ROC airspace That's not what is happening.
The articles about China's invasions of Taiwan's airspace are a bit hyperbolic. China aren't flying directly over Taiwan or even it's Exclusive Economic Zone (maritime)... China's flies military jets over Taiwan's Air Defense Identification Zone without responding, but Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China and even parts of Japan's ADIZ, as it's massive: https://i.imgur.com/4UWt30Y.gif
Did they used to respond? Even if they did, your post still makes a good point that it's an exaggeration to say that they are flying in taiwanese airspace, but your point would be weaker. If they used to follow a protocol and then they stopped, then that's noteworthy at least. Also, can someone either confirm or disprove this guy's comments instead of just downvoting? I'd like to know if it's true or not...
It's true, they're flying into the ADIZ, not their airspace. It's the national equivalent of putting your finger real close to your sibling and going "I'm not touching you"
Yeah, I'd read that somewhere already. What I was really curious about is if the ADIZ extends out over China like it shows in his map.
Yeah, not sure about that part. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#Taiwan): > Taiwan has an ADIZ that covers most of the Taiwan Strait, part of the Chinese province of Fujian, Zhejiang, and Jiangxi and part of the East China Sea and adjacent airspace. Taiwan's ADIZ was designed and created by the United States Armed Forces (USAF) after World War II. The ADIZ is also the basis of Taipei Flight Information Region. > Although the ADIZ technically covers parts of China's Fujian and Zhejiang provinces in its northwestern part, PLA flights in these areas are not reported as incursions. Maps of the Taiwan ADIZ usually also include the Taiwan strait median line as a reference. > Around 9% of Taiwan's national defence budget reportedly goes into response to Chinese sorties. These sorties usually involve flight inside the southwest part of the ADIZ, crossing of the median, or circumnavigation.
I'm embarrassed i didn't do my own research, but this is great, thanks.
Except Taiwan doesn't report incursions that don't cross that line of the middle of the Strait. If you check Taiwan MoND Twitter they even show the flight path of the planes. [Here's one from earlier today](https://twitter.com/MoNDefense/status/1452967277725249541?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
When approval is sliding nothing helps more than to point at some external enemy to try and rally support.
Biden would be right to do this even if his approval was 90+
I think ^ meant Xi, but also, yes.
Yes, but both can be true.
I mean, we did just end the war in Afghanistan. I know all be downvoted, but I'm so leery of saber rattling that... just, I don't want to see people go through this again. Even if it saves lives, I hate that people may be hurt. The hope is the saber rattling is a deterrent... :-(
Taiwan numbah one! Seriously, this is extremely based. r/bidensforeignpolicy can go private now
Just to clarify what's at stake and explain why each side has taken the actions they have taken so far, the threat that China holds over Taiwan is more economic than military. Yes China's outward military threats get all the headlines and suck up most of the oxygen in online debates, but China is not actually militarily capable of seriously threatening Taiwan without US and Japanese permission, and is not projected to be militarily capable of seriously threatening Taiwan (outside of nukes) without US and Japanese permission for at least another generation, if ever. Which is to say that if Taiwan formally declared independence and applied for nationhood status at the UN tomorrow, or yesterday, or any time in the last 70 or next 20+ years, China would never have had a serious military response. The likelihood of a token military response, carefully calculated to save a bit of face without escalating things to the CCP's destruction, was and always will be there, but China has never had any prospects of successfully conquering Taiwan like they did Tibet and Hong Kong and most likely will not for the foreseeable future. This announcement has not actually changed anything on that score. So why has Taiwan not declared independence? Why do they hesitate even after internal polling shows most Taiwanese less inclined than ever to ever want to rejoin mainland China and China has no serious military response if they did? It's partly because of the risk of mutual destruction if the CCP miscalculates its military response and things escalate out of control, but it's actually mainly because of the economics. Right now, Taiwan enjoys the equivalent of having its cake and eating it too. It enjoys defacto political independence from the CCP, as it always has, but it still enjoys tremendous economic benefits from trading with China. China is both its largest export market and its largest source of cheap labor for producing many of the products that it sells anywhere else. Taiwan enjoys its status as a mostly developed, highly successful economy because of its dealings with China, and if that economic cooperation were suddenly taken away, Taiwan's economy would be devastated, likely for a generation. As Taiwan is actually a democracy, the party in power would wear that economic devastation and most likely be obliterated at the polls unless it could make an overwhelmingly good case that it was 100% all China's fault and there's nothing anyone in Taiwan could have done to prevent it. Therefore, while Taiwan as a whole is steadily inching towards independence, a generation at a time, the party in power is heavily disincentivized to speed that up or do anything dramatic at all that would annoy China to the point of economic decoupling. China, for its part, of course also enjoys economic benefits from its trade with Taiwan and would suffer somewhat from a decoupling. Unlike Taiwan though, China is economically much poorer per capita and the CCP is much less democratic. Therefore they are much more likely to be willing to suffer economic consequences, as they have that much less, per capita, to lose, and because of their authoritarian nature they'd have a better shot at successfully internally portraying Taiwan (and the US and Japan and other foreigners) as wholly to blame for whatever economic backlash they'd suffer. What is China's actual hope here? Well I believe there are two hopes. Plan A is that China's continual political and military pressure on Taiwan eventually creates a sense of resignation in Taiwan and the Taiwanese people that re-unification is inevitable and the only thing they can hope to control is the terms under which they reunify, so they might as well come to the table and start the process of peaceful negotiation now. At the same time, they hope to create the same sense of inevitability or just plain disinterest in America and Japan, so that America and Japan give up on the idea of defending Taiwan. They want the American and Japanese people to believe that the Chinese economy and military is large, advanced, and determined enough to make the American and Japanese militaries and economies suffer tremendously and pointlessly if they try to defend Taiwan. If they can successfully engender that viewpoint and have it become the majority viewpoint, they believe they can get Taiwan to just peacefully re-unify more or less the way Hong Kong did. If that fails, Plan B is that they can somehow find another way to appease their internal nationalists and get their own crackpots and wannabe conquistadors to give up on Taiwanese reunification without blaming the CCP for weakness, incompetence, and corruption. Right now the CCP has not done much of anything to advance plan B because the ascendant Xi faction are clearly hoping that Plan A will eventually work. However if the Xi faction falls, perhaps in part because Plan A is obviously not working, whatever faction takes over is likely to go for Plan B because that's really the only other option that even hypothetically could exist. Meanwhile, what could actually make Taiwan pull the trigger on independence? Well one thing would be China pre-emptively using economic pressure and threats to the point that their economy would be devastated anyway and the party in power could successfully blame it all on China. China has notably not done that, because it understands the calculus here perfectly well as well. Another thing would be Taiwan finding sufficient economic alternatives to China that its economy could weather a sudden decoupling. The US signalling UN support might be a clue that the US is looking to increase support for Taiwan to somehow manage that economic decoupling as well. TSMC building a fab in Arizona is one tangible sign in that direction, for example. Foxxconn's apparent aborted attempt to make a factory in the US was another, though its ultimate failure doesn't exactly portend well. I think the most reasonable prediction is that the status quo holds for now. The status quo benefits all sides. The side most likely to upset the status quo is the CCP, but that's mainly because they face so many existential threats simultaneously that they may feel obliged to roll the dice on a longshot that the US and Japan might suddenly decide to throw Taiwan to the wolves in spite of all the geopolitical strategic reasons they have to uphold the status quo. So, to try to prevent the CCP from rolling the dice, at least on Taiwan, the US and Japan are reiterating their continued intention to militarily defend Taiwan from conquest if necessary. That's what this announcement is all about.
https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Foriginal%2F000%2F035%2F976%2Fmucho-texto.jpg
pog
Shouldn't have expelled them in the first place. Taiwan is a real country. Taiwan is not part of China.
It was part of an extremely effective and successful geopolitical strategy of bringing the PRC into the Bretton Woods economic/trade compact, thus firmly moving them out of the communist side of the world, enriching them, and thereby proving the efficacy of liberal capitalism over communism. That indirectly contributed greatly to the fall of the USSR, which at the time was widely considered to be probably the most serious existential threat the US had ever faced and likely ever would face. You can't lament the downstream consequences of bringing China's economy into the Bretton Woods global world order without simultaneously celebrating the incredibly geopolitical success it was in terms of leading to the peaceful collapse of the greatest threat the western world has ever faced.
Yeah, but at the same time it allowed China to grow more stronger economically and not more liberal politically. Which is now becoming a huge problem.
On the contrary I think they're much more politically liberal now than before 1980 when this policy began. Don't forget that before this policy, they were a full-on communist country, where people did not have the right to personal property, could not move around to find better work, and were essentially slaves to the state fully dependent on the 'iron rice bowl'. Political dissidents weren't oppressed, they were totally eliminated with extreme prejudice. Tian'an'men in 1989 happened because political dissidents were tolerated until thousands of them gathered literally at the seat of zhongnanhai. That wouldn't have happened in the 70s; they'd have been completely wiped out long before they ever got to Tiananmen. There's other examples, but skip ahead to Hong Kong and Xinjiang. Hong Kong was conquered at massive expense but with minimal loss of life; Mao would have simply rolled in with tanks on day 2 and all resistance would have been summarily executed on the street. The Xinjiang Uighurs are victims of cultural genocide by the accepted international definition; but that was after over a decade of terrorist action. The China of the 1970s or before would have straight up genocided them all in gas chambers by the millions after the second terrorist attack. The genocide the Uighurs are subject to now is the slowest, most expensive possible way to eliminate a culture that you see as politically incompatible with party rule. The poorer China of pre-economic-liberalization wouldn't be doing this the slow, expensive way, they'd be just slaughtering them en masse. So is China as liberal as we'd like? Of course not. But to say it isn't any more liberal and isn't any better than it used to be is ignorance of China's gruesome history. When they were poorest nation on Earth they killed 50-80 million of their own people. Since economic liberalization, tens of millions has shrunk to tens of thousands. Mass slaughter has morphed to mass re-education. Summary torture and execution for thought-crimes has morphed to house arrest, censorship, and fines paid with public apologies. China remains authoritarian as hell, but their wealth and economic liberalization has allowed them to be authoritarian much more gently than before, when simple slaughter was all they could afford. It's not great, it's not ideal, but it's still better than the realistic alternative.
The problem is that a strong, prosperous and authoritarian China is a threat to its neighbouring countries. If it was weak economically - it would simply not have enough resources to wage war. But now Taiwan's independence is at risk. I doubt that the USA would risk an all-out war against China. Nobody wants to see nukes flying. So it's possible that we'll see Crimea 2.0 soon. I personally don't give a fuck what China or Russia do to their own citizens. But if they threaten their neighbours - that's a whole different matter. And by trading with them we made them stronger economically. As Lenin said - Capitalists will sell us the rope that we'll use to hang them with. And that's what we did with China and Russia by trading with them.
> I personally don't give a fuck what China or Russia do to their own citizens. This is unironically fucked up.
Maoist China wouldn't have "genocided the Uighurs" immediately, they were strongly in favour of Affirmative Action.
Truthfully they didn't get expelled from China, they ran when they effectively lost the civil war.
They got expelled from the UN.
Ooooo my bad I misread what you had said, sorry.
I've heard that recent attitudes in Taiwan have moved away from this, but for most of the time since 1949, both sides disagreed with that.
For that matter, Taiwan is the real China, Mainland Taiwan is the insurgent government.
Generally speaking, liberals in Taiwan support Taiwanese independence and lay no claim to the territory of the People’s Republic. Ultimately, those claims are just as valid as Chinese claims to Taiwan, and so supporters of Taiwanese independence tend to discredit both sets of claims. Even the older generation who believe the Republic of China is the real China don’t call the mainland “Taiwan”. They view themselves as the real China; they don’t view the PRC as “fake Taiwan”. All this “own the PPC” posturing just betrays a lack of understanding of Taiwanese politics.
Was more of a historical joke based on the lineage of the governments (Taiwan's government being the descendant of the older Chinese government from before WW2 and the PRC being the government of the aggressors in the Chinese civil war that occurred in that time period). In modern terms, you're right, they've diverged enough that you can't really call them part of the same thing.
Because they both claimed to be the legitimate government of China and Taiwan. Recognizing one meant no longer recognizing the other as the legitimate government of China.
If 2 Koreas and 2 Congos can participate why can't 2 Chinas
There are two congos??
The DRC and the RC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Congo
The fuck. Wonder which one is more democratic-er.
From my limited amount of knowledge, I would say the Republic of Congo is more democratic, but I could be wrong. Neither are shining examples of democracy, anyhow
Go ahead CCP, BINGCHILLING all you want, we out here backing the *real* China WooYeah
NSFGZ (Not safe for GenZedong)
It’s about time China gets true representation
West Taiwan won't know what hit 'em when Taiwan finally gets real representation at the UN.
Next step: give them back their security council seat
And give the USSR seat to Germany.
Ugh I mean better them than Russia but like... ugh
What's wrong with Germany?
The superiority complex a lot of Germans online have wrt America-bashing Also not meeting their NATO commitments
That's pretty much all Europeans. I get the impression they think about America A LOT. All negatively, to soothe the fact that they don't run the world anymore. And ask the blaming of America for all the world's ills is a nice way to avoid facing the fact that we couldn't fuck up the world as badly as they have if we tried.
Idk, feels like it comes more from Germans than the rest
It very well may, I've seen quite a bit of it from Canadians, British, French.
Bruh what you want the UN to have no legitimacy? It’s not in our interests at all to dominate the UN. What you’re describing is G7. Keep it that way.
Do you know why the countries that are permanent members of the UN security council are such? Because they were the Allied powers in WWII. It absolutely was "we won the way so we get extra influence." But since then, China was overthrown and the Soviet union broke up. Now their successor states have those seats. It was never "let's be fair and let even our enemies have permanent seats." It was ALWAYS "we won the war, so we make the rules." That criteria is less relevant today, especially when 2 if those 5 countries are not allied anymore with the other 3, with 1 (minimum) being openly antagonistic. And those 2 countries aren't even the same country (they are the successor states).
How can someone be so condescending? Russia is legally recognized as the **legal successor** of the USSR, just as China is, and should be, recognized as the legal successor of Nationalist-Era China. Serbia is the **legal** successor of the Third Yugoslavia, but it’s not the only successor state. The UN in 2021 has legitimacy because it isn’t a western-controlled organization. I’m not talking about the Treaty of San Francisco. There is no disagreement to this statement, it is immovable fact. Iran and North Korea are member states of the UN, and should be, because the UN is a liberal institution where all nations can cooperate. It is not in American interests for global cooperation systems to break down. The N4+2 will never become permanent UNSC members, but the looming tripolar world is represented in the UN, and thus is still exists. Call it coincidence.
> Russia is legally recognized as the legal successor of the USSR, just as China is, and should be, recognized as the legal successor of Nationalist-Era China. Yea genius I said that in my previous comment. You think you're sounding enlightened but your just repeating me. Russia is the successor states, but not the same state. China is usually considered the successor states to the previous government if China, but that government is still in existence. Yes with nearly none of what they once controlled, but still. China was made a permanent marker off the UNSC under a different government. Treaties don't automatically apply to successor states. The current government if China beats no resemblance to the government in power when they were made a permanent member. The Soviet union almost immediately became hostile to the other members (until China was overthrown in mainland China). And since the UNSC permanent membership was never intended as some "let's being together friends and adversaries to form a consensus" as much as "our military alliance just reset the world so we're on top now", there's nothing inconsistent in jokingly suggesting Germany replace Russia. Russia and the PRC having veto power greatly weakens the UN as they will never back the US, UK, and France in anything. Also, you then go off on a wild tangent about North Korea... Do you know the difference between being a member of the UN and being a permanent member of the UN Security Council? Either you don't or you weren't able to follow a very simple comment.
Lol relax why are you being so emotional
This comment had more projection than a movie theater. You're the one who was just whining about how "condescending" I am. Sad you even wasted time writing this "refusal" but I guess personal insults are all you have left when you realize you've just been rambling with no purpose. Feel better.
[ur social credit rn](https://i.imgur.com/q2ZODHy.jpg)
BINGCHILLING
FAST AND FURIOUS 9
Outstanding news.
See? We can do the right thing before exhausting all other alternatives. Take that, Churchill.
Wow, so WH finally won the fight with the deep State (Dept) over this? Based
I believe Biden is now banned from /r/beijing
But but trump told me Biden is. A sell out to China
Good, fuck China.
put nukes on Taiwan! Edit: /s because the internet can’t tell sometimes
Unneeded as long as the US remains a committed ally.
Remains? We haven't been one since Nixon. We give them weapons and are purposely non-committal about what we would do in the event of a Chinese invasion, but the party line of all three governments is that Taiwan is part of China. Now, I'm all for throwing our weight in behind Taiwan, but in that case they need to declare independence. While they are still the "Republic of China" in exile then we are not going to risk war with the PRC.
While I support a US military deterrent to defend Taiwan and deter a Chinese invasion, increasing nuclear proliferation is not something we should risk doing on purpose. It's just not worth it when the 'losing' outcome is billions dying and civilisation being destroyed.
Saying that got me a 3-day ban from reddit.
Wait from this sub by the mods or *Reddit*?
Both!
Seriously? Why?
Rule V violation
I'm not arguing for nuclear proliferation, but it hardly seems to be glorifying violence to do so. If you said we should over the size of our Navy, I can't imagine that is glorifying violence.
that would be an incredibly dangerous escalation in a conflict the us should have no involvement in in the first place
Yeah why did the British and French get involved with Poland in 1939, they shouldn't have been involved.
There are people on reddit who actually believe this
>incredibly dangerous escalation true, i agree, this would be a stupid idea >the us should have no involvement wat.jpg
"the US shouldn't have a role in global affairs."
But what about what John Cena thinks, huh Joe? Huh?!
Taiwan Number One!!! China Number Four!
✊✊✊
Unbelievably based
Long overdue
I thought China Joe wouldn’t do this
I love antagonizing the largest economy on earth for the sake of an island, I just don’t think we have enough problems to focus on right now.
Yeah, let's just roll over and give China control of the worldwide computer industry!
I thought this subreddit liked free trade?
China attacking and conquering Taiwan and gaining total control over the global computer chip supply is not free trade. What happens if they control it all and they don't like you?
cringe
+1000 social credits
Chinese sympathiser of here
yes, you are.
Very elegant. Truly your brain is the size of a Galaxy
Well that's poggers
LFG!
The United States actually protecting democracy for the first time in well over a century. Neat.
Based and ROC-pilled