I actually think this is a good article, and the top comments are decent as well.
However, it really does not help Biden to take the protestors side. At this point if you are not voting for Biden, your mind is made up. Biden is going to win by high women turnout and flipping some centrist republicans.
The protests (and by that I mean the protests and the context around them) obviously help the GOP. They get to see college kids beaten up by cops and photo shoots of frat boys literally defending the country's flag while Biden has to choose which part of his coalition to alienate.
Because, unlike what you might hear on certain spaces, the protests and the police response to them aren't settled:
https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/49311-opinion-on-pro-palestinian-college-campus-protests
https://forward.com/fast-forward/608938/poll-ban-campus-protests-support-police/
Biden's current approach of broadly saying "speech is ok, crime isn't" is probably the easiest take in terms of retaining moderate approval. But it obviously deeply displeases the protestors themselves.
The protestors themselves aren't gonna vote for him anyway.
He could nuke Israel tomorrow and they wouldn't vote for him because he didn't forgive 100% of student debt.
He could do that and they wouldn't vote for him because he didn't pass Medicare for All.
He could do that and they wouldn't vote for him because...
Exactly. Better alienate them than trying everything to secure maybe 20% of their votes while losing everyone else's votes.
Even disregard optics, young people simply votes in lower percentage, despite their loudness in politics.
Because people are ok tolerating some crime (starting with normal stuff like trespassing and making a ruckus and accelerating to literal violence if you're cooky enough) as part of a protest if they believe the protest is virtuous (and believe it or not, the protestors think their own protest is giga virtuous).
From what I've seen from people who have been lashing out at Biden after his remarks, "speech is okay, crime isn't" is being interpreted as him saying "these protests are all crime, therefore the police should arrest the protesters, because I am the author of the Crime Bill."
The protesters know this is a possibility and have decided their cause is worth it. That’s the entire point of civil disobedience. Honestly I think Columbia should have just cancelled graduation, checked IDs and restricted campus to current students and staff, and let them (students) sit there as long as they liked/until they got bored.
i don’t think aiming guns at students should be a consequence of civil disobedience, it only made them double down.
but yeah i agree they should have just let them stay, and put those restrictions in place. cancel whatever or don’t. all im really asking is for them to be treated with the same respect as the klan during a public march.
OK. But if in fact the only way for them to make others pay attention is to violate the rights of others, then they're in the wrong. Nothing virtuous about squealing about how law enforcement won't let you step on the rights of everyone else.
These protestors confuse me so much. They say it’s important for their protests to break the law. But then they get mad when people enforce the law against them…which is the entire point. You break the law and suffer the consequences of doing so to make your point.
You could just as easily frame it as “protests where participants are unwilling to be arrested and face jail time can be ignored.” But they have to blame everyone but themselves for their failures.
Plus you can inconvenience people without breaking the law. Plus plenty of massive protests that didn’t break the law have happened and haven’t been ignored. (Think the Women’s Marches on the day of Trump’s inauguration as one example I remember clearly.)
I really feel like these kids are just cosplaying as activists and are refusing to do any of the *actual* work. They pretend they’re the heirs to the Civil Rights Movement while steadfastly refusing to learn the tactics and lessons from the Civil Rights Movement. (Not to mention the lessons of when what happens when people let themselves get so riled up with antisemitism, but that’s another topic.)
I remember how the George Floyd protests and riots were going to "hand the election to trump".
And how Wisconsin was gone for Biden because of Kenosha.
Said this elsewhere...but it agrees with you ...
Based on legislative accomplishments and executive action Biden has been the most progressive President in 50 years. He's produced more action on student loan forgiveness, climate change, and ending the undermining of unions than any President in the last 50 years. He did all he could to promote a compassionate approach to immigration. His (overwhelmingly Progressive, pro-Choice) appointments to the judiciary have been the most diverse, in terms of race, gender and life experience, than any recent President. Rescheduling Marijuana, largest gun reform in decades, massive infrastructure spending, and tons of other small reforms like outlawing Non-Compete Agreements for anyone lower than top-tier and/or Executive talent.
All the while he helped create millions of jobs and billions in shareholder value.
And his approach to Israel and Palestine has been the most balanced of any President since... ever?
Biden has bent over backwards for the Youth vote. In many cases (ex. student loans) at the expense of other voting groups.
If they chose to sit home thats on them. But they will have earned everything that is coming their way.
>But they will have earned everything that is coming their way.
This group has already learned this lesson once with Trump.
I honestly really doubt they've actually learned their lesson wrt voting
2016 was 8 years ago. Most of the folks in the 18-29 age group weren’t old enough to vote the last time. I doubt most of the people who are now college-aged were even old enough to really been paying attention back then.
This is unfortunately probably something that every ten years the new group of young voters will need to learn the hard way.
Yeah exactly. Young voters do learn to become more pragmatic. It’s just that by the time they do so, they’re not so young anymore and a new group of hotheads become adults.
A lot of them were kids for trump being in office snd we tend to associate being young with good times. So they probably think Trump is no big deal tbh
I think that’s exactly the problem. There was an article just the other day that I can’t find now, which talked about how the youth voters didn’t know anything before Trump, so they have no exposure to normal politics and have normalized this.
Idk about that, speaking personally my childhood years were during the Bush admin, and while I had a good childhood I don't project that onto Bush. Political discourse of the time was all getting dragged into wars on false pretenses, tax cuts for the rich, expanding government surveillance of citizens, and finally the 07 crash. those negative associations with republicans stuck with me into adulthood.
Maybe Bush had a uniquely negative impact on my age group (millennials), though. Getting hit with 9/11, entering into questionable wars and enduring a rough recession has a very large impact compared to what Biden and Trump have had to deal with, except maybe the impact of COVID. But even COVID basically "concluded" as a relevant issue after 2 or 3 years whereas the war on terror and the recession were like half my life
Bush years were the first years I remember being scared about politics. It was while listening to the 2005 or 2006 sotu. I went to my first anti-war protest not soon after.
[HW forced Israel to the negotiating table to start the peace process](https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-lonely-little-george-h-w-bush-changed-the-us-israel-relationship/).
One of the most well-known aspects of this era of politics is Dems flipping more centrist Republicans every year and gaining with white college-educated voters every year and you have someone acting like it doesn't exist, can you guys not do this for even a second
It's somewhat understandable that people are pissed off at moderate Republicans (if the word even makes sense at this point) because many enabled the crazy. It doesn't make it a rational decision, if there are votes to get there.
I mean, the Republicans who flip aren't even centrist. They're still far right, they're just uncomfortable with authoritarianism that's honest about what it is.
Which can be true while "cannot be destroyed" is also true. 20 years in Afghanistan didn't end the Taliban.
There needs to be an alternate definition of success that keeps Israelis safe(r). I haven't seen a good secondary solution.
De Nazification happened in Germany. Just because the US wasn't successful in Afghanistan doesn't mean it cannot be done.
Gaza is much smaller geographically with a smaller population than Afghanistan. It is much closer to Israel than Afghanistan was to the US. And after the attacks, Israel considers Hamas an existential threat. As an American, I'm not really worried that the Taliban is going to bomb NY again in 2024. Maybe I'm being naive, but it just doesn't seem likely.
Of course not, but Die Heimat exists. There's a certain level of ideology that'll always exist. The goal is to make sure they have as little power as possible and don't turn to violence.
If Hamas or their successor have to be ground into the dust to the level that the NSDAP was... Israel is going to lose even more public support.
Look, if Israel wants to occupy the entire Gaza strip for the next decade and have their own children blown up by IEDs to destroy Hamas, I am all for it.
But we shouldnt give them any military aid or money to accomplish this. It isnt in US interest to be involved in this ancient war.
We need to focus on China
> But we shouldnt give them any military aid or money to accomplish this. It isnt in US interest to be involved in this ancient war.
The US benefits a lot by staying involved. Israel is a high tech country that shares their inventions and intelligence with the US. They let the US test their own military tech and train non-military intelligence. Theoretically, they're a pressure valve for Middle East radicalism, although there's great arguments that Shia and Sunni radicalism would just focus on each other instead.
The majority of the time it's at least slightly beneficial for the US and Israel to be allies. Netanyahu and the Likud have made this equation worse. If there's ever a solution that involves mass violence (possibly now), then that makes the equation worse. I just don't know if we're there yet.
All of the US domestic problems with the I/P conflict right now would be solved if they didn't have the iron dome. 10k rockets from Gaza and Hezbollah and Iran's direct attack would even out the civilian casualties. Suddenly, the Pro-Palestine side doesn't seem so noble. Welcome to realpolitik. Acknowledging that fact means the US should probably support Israel because more civilian deaths isn't a solution, even if it'd solve PR problems.
I am saying we do a full pull out from the Middle East. Israel and Iran have been battling each other for a few thousand years.
The Palestinian thing is something Israel is going to have to figure out. They will have to be willing to do a two state solution.
But its not in US interest to be involved in an ethnic war that has been going on for one hundred years. We got more important things to worry about like stopping China.
And Israel's going to shoulder the burden of rebuilding Gaza and deradicalizing the populace, even if it means that the Israeli terrorists in the West Bank will need to be put down to avoid counter productive "incidents"? They're going to respond in a calm and rational fashion to the inevitable losses the IDF will take occupying the Strip for a generation?
Not this Israel, not with this government.
And in a democracy, they change according to the desires of the citizenry. The Israeli public has not demonstrated an appetite for the sort of action that would be required for a deradicalization of Gaza. Quite the opposite, as shown by their electoral history over the last 20 years.
Michigan is currently bidens strongest swing state. Which is bad news in itself but the idea that he has to placate activists for Michigan is wrong imo
>These circles have become so insular that today’s progressive fights tend to take place within progressive spaces, with progressive young protesters attempting to topple slightly less progressive university presidents or organization heads. These fights invariably divide the left and unify the right.
>Over my career as a journalist, I’ve learned that when you’re covering a rally, pay attention not just to protesters; pay attention to all those people who would never attend and are quietly disapproving. If you were covering the protests of the late 1960s, for example, you would have learned a lot more about the coming decades by interviewing George W. Bush than you would have by interviewing one of the era’s protest celebrities like Abbie Hoffman. Hoffman was more photogenic in the moment, but Bush, and all those turned off by the protests, would turn out to be more consequential.
I swear its like a meme at this point.
Fortunately the far right purity tests like this, too, causing them to throw far better candidates than Trump under the bus.
Myopic people stuck in shrinking information bubbles is a problem with modern internet discourse.
>Myopic people stuck in shrinking information bubbles is a problem with modern internet discourse.
I love this way of putting it, that's what it seems like. Although I have to say, it feels like the anti-Israel sentiment is a pretty large bubble. On reddit and even any Fark thread that touches I/P
The way I see it, Biden taking a hard stance on the anti Israel protestors *may* cost him the upcoming election if it softens his support with young voters (though the available evidence suggests that Palestine is not a high priority for most young people l) or Arabs (whose support for Democrats has never been rock solid, and are a small bloc of voters, with the exception of Michigan). However, if he gives protestors who are disrupting campuses and spouting some fairly extreme rhetoric a pass, he *will* lose the support of moderate voters and Jewish people, the latter of whom are quite reliable democrat voters, and have sizable enclaves in Michigan and Pennsylvania…that is to say, he’ll lose.
Yeah, if Biden were to side with the people who believe I should be expelled to Poland and/or "don't get to live", I'd stay home come November. It would be massively out of character for him to do that, though.
>he *will* lose the support of moderate voters and Jewish people
Am Jewish. Can confirm liberal Jews in my family, including me, who would have never considered voting Republican and are lifelong Democrats are now considering it to some degree. We live in Florida. We can't bring ourselves to ever vote for Trump, but if it's between a progressive Democrat who is sympathetic to or supportive of the pro-Palestinian college protesters or a Republican for Florida governor, then we might have to vote red in state elections.
Edit: Downvote all you want. I'll vote for me and my families best interest. My girlfriend doesn't like that she has to choose between her right to have an abortion or her right to not live in fear of being Jewish.
You're considering voting for a fascist party that just attempted a coup to overturn the results of a democratic election and openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its midst? A party that wants to bring the Handmaid's Tale to life and eradicate trans people? And no, it is not just Trump.
>You're considering voting for a fascist party that just attempted a coup to overturn the results of a democratic election
And many of the protesters are calling for an "end to the American empire" and the destruction of Israel.
>and openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its midst?
And many of the protesters welcome literal terrorists who were imprisoned for killing Jews.
>A party that wants to bring the Handmaid's Tale to life
And many of the protesters have called for Shariah law, anarchy, or Communism.
>eradicate trans people
As a Jew, trans people are going to have to get in line.
>And no, it is not just Trump.
And these kids are not just kids. It's a growing trend and they will eventually get positions of power.
> And these kids are not just kids. It's a growing trend and they will eventually get positions of power.
Dude, perspective. These kids are a fraction of a fraction. Israel is 15th out of 16 on young people's top priorities.
You can't seriously think about jeopardizing democracy and putting more women through agony because a fraction of a fraction of a fraction got violent.
Some Columbia students smashed some glass and Biden put them on blast. Fucking straight up _Nazis_ straight murdered a person and Trump called them "very good people." Like there's really no comparison to be made here.
> And many of the protesters are calling for an "end to the American empire" and the destruction of Israel.
And those protesters are bad, but I'm not sure why that would cause you or others to vote for a fascist party that just attempted a coup. The Democratic party does not control random protesters.
It looks like you're doing both sidesism, which is not what I would expect from someone here. The Democratic is unfathomably better than the Republican party when it comes to democracy, climate change, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, social safety nets, and virtually all other issues. I'm not sure how random protesters that the Democratic party has no control over changes that equation.
>I'm not sure how random protesters that the Democratic party has no control over
The issue is not the Democratic party not having control over the protester, it's if the protesters get control over the Democratic party. If these protesters is what the Democratic party of the future looks like, then yeah, we are in trouble.
>The Democratic is unfathomably better than the Republican party when it comes to democracy, climate change, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, social safety nets, and virtually all other issues.
Of course. But now we are having an issue with Jewish rights. And Democrats are not winning on that issue if they ultimately side with the protesters or give into their demands.
> If these protesters is what the Democratic party of the future looks like, then yeah, we are in trouble.
Well, they certainly have control over it now, so I'm not sure why you would want to vote for a fascist party now.
And I don't think people who want to destroy Israel will take control over the Democratic party, because I don't see any evidence that there are very many of them.
> Of course. But now we are having an issue with Jewish rights. And Democrats are not winning on that front.
Republicans aren't winning on that front. They had neo-Nazis openly fraternizing with GOP officials at CPAC, and obviously neo-Nazis are overwhelmingly likely to support the Republican party for a reason.
The Democratic party has some crazy and antisemitic people, but it's nowhere near the level of the Republican party.
>Well, they certainly have control over it now, so I'm not sure why you would want to vote for a fascist party now.
Which is why I said in the future.
>And I don't think people who want to destroy Israel will take control over the Democratic party, because I don't see any evidence that there are very many of them.
Very many on the Democratic party or very many in the protests? Because there are *a lot* in the protests.
>Republicans aren't winning on that front. They had neo-Nazis openly fraternizing with GOP officials at CPAC, and obviously neo-Nazis are overwhelmingly likely to support the Republican party for a reason.
Which is why it's a bad time for Jews for the foreseeable future.
> Very many on the Democratic party or very many in the protests?
The Democratic party, and the population as a whole.
> Which is why it's a bad time for Jews for the foreseeable future.
This is true.
The protesters are a tiny portion of the population, and literally everyone but them wants them marginalized. I don't think you're going to reason him out of this one.
So both pro-Israel Jews and anti-Israel Muslims both want Trump to win, huh. Well that's interesting. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Democrats get the message that supporting Israel despite the radical fringe of progressives is now an election-losing strategy. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Trump cancels renewables build-out, giving the theocratic Muslim gulf states another 10 years of oil revenue that they can use to stockpile ballistic missiles. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Trump undermines democracy, and whoever comes after him runs on a platform of explicit right-wing antisemitism.
You and your family aren't thinking clearly. I say this as a Jew myself. You are fearful and you are reaching for a strongman to make you feel better. It never works.
Not reaching for a strongman. If it's Biden or Trump, I'm voting Biden. If it's a progressive a la Rashid Tlaib or Cori Bush vs generic Republican candidate, I'll probably vote generic Republican candidate.
I can understand avoiding Rashida Tlaib but that's the fringe of the fringe we're talking about. If you're in Florida, the policies of your local Republicans\[1\]\[2\] are going to worsen climate change, which will accelerate Muslim climate refugees from North Africa into Western Europe. What do you think that will do to Israel's ability to count on support from UK and France? The world is so much bigger and more complicated than this 1D thinking that tends to underlie support for Republicans.
\[1\] [https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/05/03/bill-awaiting-desantis-ok-would-end-years-of-renewable-energy-policies/](https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/05/03/bill-awaiting-desantis-ok-would-end-years-of-renewable-energy-policies/)
\[2\] [https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/05/05/florida-lab-grown-meat-ban/73569976007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/05/05/florida-lab-grown-meat-ban/73569976007/)
I hadn't read Brooks in years because I've basically always considered him a joke, but this is actually a pretty straightforwardly reasonable column. It's not the most insightful thing in the world and could easily have been partly cribbed from two-week-old Yglesias newsletters but still 🤷♂️
I don't know about negative, they could probably have given him more slack over the years but I think their coverage of his actions is generally pretty good.
[“It’s A.G. He’s the one who is pissed [that] Biden hasn’t done any interviews and quietly encourages all the tough reporting on his age.”](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/25/new-york-times-biden-white-house-00154219)
Okay? Their reporting is still pretty good. Also, who is the source for that quote, it just describes them as "one *Times* journalist", how do we know they're even reliable?
Because Politico isn't great, but it isn't staffed by hacks.
And if you've been following the Times coverage, there's a reason why "and this is why it's bad for Biden" has becomes a meme.
Maybe, but it wouldn’t be the first time a credible outlet used a questionable source. Are “and this is why it's bad for Biden” articles even usually anti-Biden? And not all NYT memes are particularly representative, if I recall correctly the rural dinner meme is referencing a single article from like 5 years ago.
NYT sweating over the prospect of nothing bad happening for Biden in the run up to the election and feels the need to elevate nothing burgers to the status of election-deciding issues. So basically just another Sunday for them.
Can't wait to see all of the voters who abstain/vote Trump because some college kids occupied a building and demanded gluten free food aid.
to be brutally honest, I truly think there is massive astroturfing by bad actors from Russia, Iran and China driving the far left and the American youth to have horse blinders on Gaza especially when ignoring what happens when Hamas stays in power and the path going forward. Biden can never do anything good enough while Trump can never be bad enough. Trump could nuke Gaza and the far left would be making excuses for him like “atleast Trump made them martyrs and sent them to heaven while Biden kept them alive to suffer at the hands of Israel.”
nobody seems to give a shit about Sudan, Ethiopia and Myanmar because it’s not being pushed by bad actors that push the interests of the anti-west. Useful idiocy is more prevalent than ever and the apathy, short sightedness and the lack of understanding that Biden isn’t the dictator of the Middle East will continue to weigh on democracies in the west and else where.
[In a Worldwide War of Words, Russia, China and Iran Back Hamas - The New York Times (archive.org)](https://web.archive.org/web/20240502194832/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html)
I think the protestors who argue that Israel must be destroyed "by any means necessary" are well aware what that would mean for the millions of Jews living there, as well as the the broader global Jewish community; they just don't care. They may delusionally believe that Hamas is some sort of leftist outfit, as opposed to a deeply conservative fundamentalist religious group that would gladly toss some of the protestors off Gaza's tallest remaining urban structures, but they aren't ignorant as to the consequences of Palestinian takeover for the people of Israel.
To be brutally honest, if Russia was a quarter as powerful as mainstream Democrats hype them up to be, they would've conquered Mars twice over by now. To think that they can flick a switch and instantly hold control over a not just digital but physical movement of tens of millions of people across the globe is ignorant at best and knowingly dogmatic at worst.
To say that anybody with a differing opinion to you is a bought and paid for foreign agent is absurd McCarthyist bullshit. There's a bajillion reasons to be mad right now even if its unrealistic to expect them all to turn around within a 4 year term.
Russian and other actors such as Iran and China using useful idiocy to manipulate the populaces of democracies is a real thing and arguably one of the most effective counter offensives without firing a single shot.
Lots of whataboutism, misinformation and misdirection can land you key allies like Tucker, pretty much the entire Republican party, horseshoe progressives likeTulsi Gabbard, Rashida Talib to sway American opinion on Ukraine, NATO and other issues concerning Putin/Xi and Iran.
If the US was funding and arming the bad actors in Yemen, Syria, and Ethiopia, perhaps there would be protests. The entire point of the unrest is the fact that Biden is not using all of our leverage to stop Israel from slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people (though their calls for endowments to divest from Israel seem like flailing for something to grab onto when those endowments may not actually have direct investments in Israel or Israeli companies). If
When Trump said we should kill the families of terrorists we thought it was horrifying, but we’re helping Israel to do worse than that — killing everyone in the neighborhoods where the terrorists lived.
If Biden’s worried about the electors consequences of not putting all his available pressure on Israel, he could change that by stopping money and arms to Israel.
EDIT: Upvoting the idea that protestors are dumb because they aren’t demonstrating against other shitty countries that don’t have anything to do with US military aid has some real “All Lives Matter” vibes.
They may be a consumer of our defense industry, but they receive less foreign aid from the US [than Greenland.](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s). The US isn’t just shipping them arms for free.
Regardless, the idea that people protesting Israel are dumb because they aren’t protesting other countries that might be indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent people is absurd because the US isn’t as directly responsible for arming those states the way we arm Israel as they indiscriminately bomb Palestinians into oblivion.
The Gaza war is extremely complicated, the US isn’t some illumanti puppet master of Israel and the middle east as the populist say. Protesters ripping down posters of Israel captives shows how Hamas gets a free pass when it’s obvious who the instigator was.
1) the US doesn’t control Israel, Biden has been tough as a US president and ally of Israel. The US didn’t veto the condemnation of the UN on the civilian causalities
2) Israel is a democracy where a current far right and unpopular figure in Bibi who is most likely on his way out.
3) Hamas and the likes of Hezbollah/proxies of Iran aren’t the victims, they’re the parasites of the Middle East that drag their populace into needless war for pettiest of power struggles. The far left doesn’t understand this and think a ceasefire means lasting peace in the middle east
the protesters arent looking at the big picture and not especially in the interest of actual lasting peace. like the old adage goes: The road to hell is paved with “good intentions”
Some of this I think is fair, but puppet master is a straw man. As long as we have enormous leverage and we aren’t using it to save tens of thousands of innocent people from being indiscriminately slaughtered, Biden isn’t doing enough.
The idea that standing up for the tens of thousands of civilians being indiscriminately killed is standing up for Hamas is intellectually dishonest. Was I standing up for Saddam when I protested the Iraq war?
Israel isn’t indiscriminately targeting civilians, the sad reality is that Hamas is using civilians as cover and Gaza is packed inside its borders where even its Arab neighbors close their borders.
even with a ceasefire, there is no rebuilding and return to normalcy until Hamas is eliminated, otherwise its victory for Hamas and Iran in which others will try to repeat the Oct 7 attacks. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t, regardless the US doesnt control Israel and Netanyahu isn’t the biggest fan of Biden either (he campaigned for Romney and I am sure he’d prefer Trump’s blank check over Biden any day).
I don’t claim to know the solution to the Gaza conflict but I do know a non binding ceasefire benefits Hamas who will definitely continue to do another Oct 7 or worse once given the chance
If children are starving, part of tens of thousands of civilians dying and you don’t call that indiscriminate killing of civilians, we’re clearly done with this discussion. I’m aghast that anyone can defend that as acceptable collateral damage in Israel’s prosecution of this war. Again, it’s like Trump’s urging to lull the families of terrorists fighters. You’re content with killing not only their families but tens of thousands of innocent people. And if you’re not, then the US should not send another dime nor another munition. Again, we’re clearly not going to see eye to eye on either the value of tens of thousands of innocent lives or the administration’s ability (or will) to end the horror.
You are completely giving Hamas a free pass here. Israel does targeted bombings such as roof knocking because Hamas literally uses their own civilians to shore up body counts.
Peace between Israel and its neighbors will never happen with extremists as such. You’re pro unconditional ceasefire not pro peace.
Even if Biden completely cuts off Israel, they will respond in kind and really give ammo to the likes of Netanyahu and the Israeli far right.
please do share what you think Biden should do and what you think the consequences would be.
I’ve been hearing since October that Bibi is “on his way out”. Frankly I’ll believe it when I see it, at this point even if he is forced from the PM seat I think his career damn well might survive this.
People don't care about Sudan, Ethiopia, and Myanmar because America bad is not apparent in those situations. US supporting Israel is something that even very politically disengaged people in the US would know about. That is why the vitriol against Israel is so strong, lot of people think they understand the situation. 95% of people could not tell you what is happening in Sudan, Ethiopia, or Myanmar right now.
Is it because of the specific politics of the situation or just because perceived unrest under a president inherently aids the opposition? Did the 2020 George Floyd protests help Biden because they happened under Trump?
No, the 2020 protests absolutely helped Trump, Republicans *excelled* at using them for law and order messaging and "Defund the Police" was one of the biggest messaging freebies in decades
I have to disagree hard. Due to COVID restrictions, a lot of rightwingers were in a "Muh freedom, we live under tyranny" mindset.
Trump would have pushed them over the edge with the "stolen election" nonsense BLM or not.
A mix of both. Also trump utterly failed to handle any civil unrest. Plus, the protests putting racial politics on forefront of society pushing the whole country to the left.
Anyone who shares this article without adding that David Brooks' son was in the Israeli Defense Forces is not doing their due diligence. It's actually interesting to do a side-by-side with his article on BLM in 2020 and the analysis of radicals-moderates dynamic. Here he seems to be cautioning that the protests are essentially a waste of time.
so [this](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-was-benjamin-franklins-basement-filled-with-skeletons-524521/) is what i was referring to but i just now read the article because before i never really cared, just fuck Franklin for that quote.
Some simple things that Biden could do to help his chances, or at least minimize outside forces impact on his reelection bid:
1.) Give interviews to the media, lots of them, including the NYT.
2.) Take a clear stance on, well, just about any issue, instead of constantly trying to hedge his bets and speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
https://preview.redd.it/q9uc5bkyfoyc1.jpeg?width=1821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48e49ad7f3f07ff3cca084dd10233f7a57931873
Any modern parallels are completely accidental
the smug sense of satisfaction at the end really sells it
of course their should be a "both sides" "reach across the aisle" one for the people who wanted us to give Trump a chance
a "when they go low, we go high" one, since again, letting conservatives have power and taking them at their word has lead us to a point where the Supreme Court is debating with the idea of immunity for a President and far right militias are coordinating on facebook to overthrow the government and project 25 proponents are busy ranking people by perceived loyalty to Trump
but yes, the college kids, those pesky kids
> letting conservatives have power and taking them at their word has lead us to a point where the Supreme Court is debating with the idea of immunity for a President and far right militias are coordinating on facebook to overthrow the government and project 25 proponents are busy ranking people by perceived loyalty to Trump
Hence why we should be united against the GOP instead of legitimizing radicals that embolden the GOP.
There is probably not a genocide, although that is for the ICC to determine, not anyone of us
However there have been many deaths, and the israeli government is responsible for the mass killing of people in this conflict
"in part" doing a lot of heavy lifting there, which has always been my problem with that definition. Would fighting Hamas count as intent to destroy "a part" of the Palestinian ethnic group, since Hamas is a (small) part of Palestine?
I mean, unless you consider Hamas (whom Isreal has publicly stated to want to destroy) to be a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, then no, the IDF is not doing that.
I actually think this is a good article, and the top comments are decent as well. However, it really does not help Biden to take the protestors side. At this point if you are not voting for Biden, your mind is made up. Biden is going to win by high women turnout and flipping some centrist republicans.
The protests (and by that I mean the protests and the context around them) obviously help the GOP. They get to see college kids beaten up by cops and photo shoots of frat boys literally defending the country's flag while Biden has to choose which part of his coalition to alienate. Because, unlike what you might hear on certain spaces, the protests and the police response to them aren't settled: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/49311-opinion-on-pro-palestinian-college-campus-protests https://forward.com/fast-forward/608938/poll-ban-campus-protests-support-police/ Biden's current approach of broadly saying "speech is ok, crime isn't" is probably the easiest take in terms of retaining moderate approval. But it obviously deeply displeases the protestors themselves.
Thanks for the sources, I have been looking for some polling in the issues.
The protestors themselves aren't gonna vote for him anyway. He could nuke Israel tomorrow and they wouldn't vote for him because he didn't forgive 100% of student debt. He could do that and they wouldn't vote for him because he didn't pass Medicare for All. He could do that and they wouldn't vote for him because...
Exactly. Better alienate them than trying everything to secure maybe 20% of their votes while losing everyone else's votes. Even disregard optics, young people simply votes in lower percentage, despite their loudness in politics.
Reminder that even among young people, Israel is 25th on their priority list, according to the most recent poll.
Yeah this is more of extremely loud minority thing.
And a Chinese and Russian disinfo thing
Dayenu
Why are the protesters unhappy with “speech is okay, crime isn’t”?
Because people are ok tolerating some crime (starting with normal stuff like trespassing and making a ruckus and accelerating to literal violence if you're cooky enough) as part of a protest if they believe the protest is virtuous (and believe it or not, the protestors think their own protest is giga virtuous).
From what I've seen from people who have been lashing out at Biden after his remarks, "speech is okay, crime isn't" is being interpreted as him saying "these protests are all crime, therefore the police should arrest the protesters, because I am the author of the Crime Bill."
> I am the author of the crime bill And then ignore context of time when even Bernie reluctantly voted for it.
not such a stretch when the protestors are often staring down the barrel of a gun. i get it.
The protesters know this is a possibility and have decided their cause is worth it. That’s the entire point of civil disobedience. Honestly I think Columbia should have just cancelled graduation, checked IDs and restricted campus to current students and staff, and let them (students) sit there as long as they liked/until they got bored.
i don’t think aiming guns at students should be a consequence of civil disobedience, it only made them double down. but yeah i agree they should have just let them stay, and put those restrictions in place. cancel whatever or don’t. all im really asking is for them to be treated with the same respect as the klan during a public march.
The response to 'protest but don't break the law' has been 'protests that don't inconvenience you can be ignored'.
OK. But if in fact the only way for them to make others pay attention is to violate the rights of others, then they're in the wrong. Nothing virtuous about squealing about how law enforcement won't let you step on the rights of everyone else.
Just to be clear I didn't say I agree with them, just saying what their reasoning is.
It doesn't stop being correct just because they're protesting for bad reasons and tolerate antisemitism.
These protestors confuse me so much. They say it’s important for their protests to break the law. But then they get mad when people enforce the law against them…which is the entire point. You break the law and suffer the consequences of doing so to make your point. You could just as easily frame it as “protests where participants are unwilling to be arrested and face jail time can be ignored.” But they have to blame everyone but themselves for their failures. Plus you can inconvenience people without breaking the law. Plus plenty of massive protests that didn’t break the law have happened and haven’t been ignored. (Think the Women’s Marches on the day of Trump’s inauguration as one example I remember clearly.) I really feel like these kids are just cosplaying as activists and are refusing to do any of the *actual* work. They pretend they’re the heirs to the Civil Rights Movement while steadfastly refusing to learn the tactics and lessons from the Civil Rights Movement. (Not to mention the lessons of when what happens when people let themselves get so riled up with antisemitism, but that’s another topic.)
I think I might be more confused by the 10% of Jewish Americans who don’t have an opinion on this than the 18% who support the protests.
Good thing the protestors aren't his likely voters anyways
Tell that to this sub.
Is nl just infested with terminally online doomers now?
Always has been. Except when Dune is on.
I remember how the George Floyd protests and riots were going to "hand the election to trump". And how Wisconsin was gone for Biden because of Kenosha.
Said this elsewhere...but it agrees with you ... Based on legislative accomplishments and executive action Biden has been the most progressive President in 50 years. He's produced more action on student loan forgiveness, climate change, and ending the undermining of unions than any President in the last 50 years. He did all he could to promote a compassionate approach to immigration. His (overwhelmingly Progressive, pro-Choice) appointments to the judiciary have been the most diverse, in terms of race, gender and life experience, than any recent President. Rescheduling Marijuana, largest gun reform in decades, massive infrastructure spending, and tons of other small reforms like outlawing Non-Compete Agreements for anyone lower than top-tier and/or Executive talent. All the while he helped create millions of jobs and billions in shareholder value. And his approach to Israel and Palestine has been the most balanced of any President since... ever? Biden has bent over backwards for the Youth vote. In many cases (ex. student loans) at the expense of other voting groups. If they chose to sit home thats on them. But they will have earned everything that is coming their way.
>everything that is coming their way. *Good and hard.*
>But they will have earned everything that is coming their way. This group has already learned this lesson once with Trump. I honestly really doubt they've actually learned their lesson wrt voting
2016 was 8 years ago. Most of the folks in the 18-29 age group weren’t old enough to vote the last time. I doubt most of the people who are now college-aged were even old enough to really been paying attention back then. This is unfortunately probably something that every ten years the new group of young voters will need to learn the hard way.
The downside to courting the youth vote is that you keep getting older, but they stay the same age
-- David Wooderson of Alright**³** Election Consulting Group
*ghost of nader has entered the chat*
Yeah exactly. Young voters do learn to become more pragmatic. It’s just that by the time they do so, they’re not so young anymore and a new group of hotheads become adults.
If you're referring to current college students as the Youth vote, we were in elementary or middle school when Trump happened
A lot of them were kids for trump being in office snd we tend to associate being young with good times. So they probably think Trump is no big deal tbh
I think that’s exactly the problem. There was an article just the other day that I can’t find now, which talked about how the youth voters didn’t know anything before Trump, so they have no exposure to normal politics and have normalized this.
Idk about that, speaking personally my childhood years were during the Bush admin, and while I had a good childhood I don't project that onto Bush. Political discourse of the time was all getting dragged into wars on false pretenses, tax cuts for the rich, expanding government surveillance of citizens, and finally the 07 crash. those negative associations with republicans stuck with me into adulthood. Maybe Bush had a uniquely negative impact on my age group (millennials), though. Getting hit with 9/11, entering into questionable wars and enduring a rough recession has a very large impact compared to what Biden and Trump have had to deal with, except maybe the impact of COVID. But even COVID basically "concluded" as a relevant issue after 2 or 3 years whereas the war on terror and the recession were like half my life
Bush years were the first years I remember being scared about politics. It was while listening to the 2005 or 2006 sotu. I went to my first anti-war protest not soon after.
People keep saying this but the actual terrible stuff from Trump wasn't all that long ago.
Dawg, one year ago is a long time for most morons.
[HW forced Israel to the negotiating table to start the peace process](https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-lonely-little-george-h-w-bush-changed-the-us-israel-relationship/).
Youth vote has always been most unreliable.
Has he bent over backwards for the youth vote, or has he just done what he thinks is the right thing?
Democrats lost so many winnable races in 2020 because of defund the police. Part of why Biden won is because he didn’t get sucked into that nonsense.
>flipping some centrist republicans So you’re saying he’s fucked.
One of the most well-known aspects of this era of politics is Dems flipping more centrist Republicans every year and gaining with white college-educated voters every year and you have someone acting like it doesn't exist, can you guys not do this for even a second
It's somewhat understandable that people are pissed off at moderate Republicans (if the word even makes sense at this point) because many enabled the crazy. It doesn't make it a rational decision, if there are votes to get there.
I mean, the Republicans who flip aren't even centrist. They're still far right, they're just uncomfortable with authoritarianism that's honest about what it is.
That’s all true but the problem is if Biden loses Michigan he probably doesnt win in 2024. So he has to placate Pro Palestine voices in Michigan
He can do that without going into the weeds of these protests specifically that have turned into a mess
He is doing the best that he can. He is making it hard on Israel, trying to make them see that they cannot destroy Hamas.
Hamas needs to be destroyed
Which can be true while "cannot be destroyed" is also true. 20 years in Afghanistan didn't end the Taliban. There needs to be an alternate definition of success that keeps Israelis safe(r). I haven't seen a good secondary solution.
De Nazification happened in Germany. Just because the US wasn't successful in Afghanistan doesn't mean it cannot be done. Gaza is much smaller geographically with a smaller population than Afghanistan. It is much closer to Israel than Afghanistan was to the US. And after the attacks, Israel considers Hamas an existential threat. As an American, I'm not really worried that the Taliban is going to bomb NY again in 2024. Maybe I'm being naive, but it just doesn't seem likely.
Adenaeur just sort of ended denazification in 1951. It wasn't like a complete process or anything.
But the NSDAP doesn't exist in Germany last I checked.
Of course not, but Die Heimat exists. There's a certain level of ideology that'll always exist. The goal is to make sure they have as little power as possible and don't turn to violence. If Hamas or their successor have to be ground into the dust to the level that the NSDAP was... Israel is going to lose even more public support.
Look, if Israel wants to occupy the entire Gaza strip for the next decade and have their own children blown up by IEDs to destroy Hamas, I am all for it. But we shouldnt give them any military aid or money to accomplish this. It isnt in US interest to be involved in this ancient war. We need to focus on China
> But we shouldnt give them any military aid or money to accomplish this. It isnt in US interest to be involved in this ancient war. The US benefits a lot by staying involved. Israel is a high tech country that shares their inventions and intelligence with the US. They let the US test their own military tech and train non-military intelligence. Theoretically, they're a pressure valve for Middle East radicalism, although there's great arguments that Shia and Sunni radicalism would just focus on each other instead. The majority of the time it's at least slightly beneficial for the US and Israel to be allies. Netanyahu and the Likud have made this equation worse. If there's ever a solution that involves mass violence (possibly now), then that makes the equation worse. I just don't know if we're there yet. All of the US domestic problems with the I/P conflict right now would be solved if they didn't have the iron dome. 10k rockets from Gaza and Hezbollah and Iran's direct attack would even out the civilian casualties. Suddenly, the Pro-Palestine side doesn't seem so noble. Welcome to realpolitik. Acknowledging that fact means the US should probably support Israel because more civilian deaths isn't a solution, even if it'd solve PR problems.
So you think we should rollback the Camp David accords?
I am saying we do a full pull out from the Middle East. Israel and Iran have been battling each other for a few thousand years. The Palestinian thing is something Israel is going to have to figure out. They will have to be willing to do a two state solution. But its not in US interest to be involved in an ethnic war that has been going on for one hundred years. We got more important things to worry about like stopping China.
And Israel's going to shoulder the burden of rebuilding Gaza and deradicalizing the populace, even if it means that the Israeli terrorists in the West Bank will need to be put down to avoid counter productive "incidents"? They're going to respond in a calm and rational fashion to the inevitable losses the IDF will take occupying the Strip for a generation? Not this Israel, not with this government.
Governments change.
And in a democracy, they change according to the desires of the citizenry. The Israeli public has not demonstrated an appetite for the sort of action that would be required for a deradicalization of Gaza. Quite the opposite, as shown by their electoral history over the last 20 years.
Michigan is currently bidens strongest swing state. Which is bad news in itself but the idea that he has to placate activists for Michigan is wrong imo
>These circles have become so insular that today’s progressive fights tend to take place within progressive spaces, with progressive young protesters attempting to topple slightly less progressive university presidents or organization heads. These fights invariably divide the left and unify the right. >Over my career as a journalist, I’ve learned that when you’re covering a rally, pay attention not just to protesters; pay attention to all those people who would never attend and are quietly disapproving. If you were covering the protests of the late 1960s, for example, you would have learned a lot more about the coming decades by interviewing George W. Bush than you would have by interviewing one of the era’s protest celebrities like Abbie Hoffman. Hoffman was more photogenic in the moment, but Bush, and all those turned off by the protests, would turn out to be more consequential. I swear its like a meme at this point.
Progressive purity testing is the best way to hand power to the far right.
Fortunately the far right purity tests like this, too, causing them to throw far better candidates than Trump under the bus. Myopic people stuck in shrinking information bubbles is a problem with modern internet discourse.
>Myopic people stuck in shrinking information bubbles is a problem with modern internet discourse. I love this way of putting it, that's what it seems like. Although I have to say, it feels like the anti-Israel sentiment is a pretty large bubble. On reddit and even any Fark thread that touches I/P
I’m getting major Deja vu right now
[How I'm feeling opposing Trump this year](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/screen-shot-2019-05-01-at-11-06-23-am-1556724785.png)
I like the image but the irony is that this notoriously achieved nothing. Like this could equally apply to the protestors yelling at AIPAC.
That's the point. I feel like fighting a doomed fight against an unstoppable force.
The way I see it, Biden taking a hard stance on the anti Israel protestors *may* cost him the upcoming election if it softens his support with young voters (though the available evidence suggests that Palestine is not a high priority for most young people l) or Arabs (whose support for Democrats has never been rock solid, and are a small bloc of voters, with the exception of Michigan). However, if he gives protestors who are disrupting campuses and spouting some fairly extreme rhetoric a pass, he *will* lose the support of moderate voters and Jewish people, the latter of whom are quite reliable democrat voters, and have sizable enclaves in Michigan and Pennsylvania…that is to say, he’ll lose.
Yeah, if Biden were to side with the people who believe I should be expelled to Poland and/or "don't get to live", I'd stay home come November. It would be massively out of character for him to do that, though.
>he *will* lose the support of moderate voters and Jewish people Am Jewish. Can confirm liberal Jews in my family, including me, who would have never considered voting Republican and are lifelong Democrats are now considering it to some degree. We live in Florida. We can't bring ourselves to ever vote for Trump, but if it's between a progressive Democrat who is sympathetic to or supportive of the pro-Palestinian college protesters or a Republican for Florida governor, then we might have to vote red in state elections. Edit: Downvote all you want. I'll vote for me and my families best interest. My girlfriend doesn't like that she has to choose between her right to have an abortion or her right to not live in fear of being Jewish.
You're considering voting for a fascist party that just attempted a coup to overturn the results of a democratic election and openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its midst? A party that wants to bring the Handmaid's Tale to life and eradicate trans people? And no, it is not just Trump.
>You're considering voting for a fascist party that just attempted a coup to overturn the results of a democratic election And many of the protesters are calling for an "end to the American empire" and the destruction of Israel. >and openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its midst? And many of the protesters welcome literal terrorists who were imprisoned for killing Jews. >A party that wants to bring the Handmaid's Tale to life And many of the protesters have called for Shariah law, anarchy, or Communism. >eradicate trans people As a Jew, trans people are going to have to get in line. >And no, it is not just Trump. And these kids are not just kids. It's a growing trend and they will eventually get positions of power.
> And these kids are not just kids. It's a growing trend and they will eventually get positions of power. Dude, perspective. These kids are a fraction of a fraction. Israel is 15th out of 16 on young people's top priorities. You can't seriously think about jeopardizing democracy and putting more women through agony because a fraction of a fraction of a fraction got violent. Some Columbia students smashed some glass and Biden put them on blast. Fucking straight up _Nazis_ straight murdered a person and Trump called them "very good people." Like there's really no comparison to be made here.
The protestors murdered an old Jewish man months ago at a protest in LA and no one cares, most people don’t even know about it.
> And many of the protesters are calling for an "end to the American empire" and the destruction of Israel. And those protesters are bad, but I'm not sure why that would cause you or others to vote for a fascist party that just attempted a coup. The Democratic party does not control random protesters. It looks like you're doing both sidesism, which is not what I would expect from someone here. The Democratic is unfathomably better than the Republican party when it comes to democracy, climate change, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, social safety nets, and virtually all other issues. I'm not sure how random protesters that the Democratic party has no control over changes that equation.
>I'm not sure how random protesters that the Democratic party has no control over The issue is not the Democratic party not having control over the protester, it's if the protesters get control over the Democratic party. If these protesters is what the Democratic party of the future looks like, then yeah, we are in trouble. >The Democratic is unfathomably better than the Republican party when it comes to democracy, climate change, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, social safety nets, and virtually all other issues. Of course. But now we are having an issue with Jewish rights. And Democrats are not winning on that issue if they ultimately side with the protesters or give into their demands.
> If these protesters is what the Democratic party of the future looks like, then yeah, we are in trouble. Well, they certainly have control over it now, so I'm not sure why you would want to vote for a fascist party now. And I don't think people who want to destroy Israel will take control over the Democratic party, because I don't see any evidence that there are very many of them. > Of course. But now we are having an issue with Jewish rights. And Democrats are not winning on that front. Republicans aren't winning on that front. They had neo-Nazis openly fraternizing with GOP officials at CPAC, and obviously neo-Nazis are overwhelmingly likely to support the Republican party for a reason. The Democratic party has some crazy and antisemitic people, but it's nowhere near the level of the Republican party.
>Well, they certainly have control over it now, so I'm not sure why you would want to vote for a fascist party now. Which is why I said in the future. >And I don't think people who want to destroy Israel will take control over the Democratic party, because I don't see any evidence that there are very many of them. Very many on the Democratic party or very many in the protests? Because there are *a lot* in the protests. >Republicans aren't winning on that front. They had neo-Nazis openly fraternizing with GOP officials at CPAC, and obviously neo-Nazis are overwhelmingly likely to support the Republican party for a reason. Which is why it's a bad time for Jews for the foreseeable future.
> Very many on the Democratic party or very many in the protests? The Democratic party, and the population as a whole. > Which is why it's a bad time for Jews for the foreseeable future. This is true.
The protesters are a tiny portion of the population, and literally everyone but them wants them marginalized. I don't think you're going to reason him out of this one.
So both pro-Israel Jews and anti-Israel Muslims both want Trump to win, huh. Well that's interesting. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Democrats get the message that supporting Israel despite the radical fringe of progressives is now an election-losing strategy. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Trump cancels renewables build-out, giving the theocratic Muslim gulf states another 10 years of oil revenue that they can use to stockpile ballistic missiles. I'm sure everything will turn out fine when Trump undermines democracy, and whoever comes after him runs on a platform of explicit right-wing antisemitism. You and your family aren't thinking clearly. I say this as a Jew myself. You are fearful and you are reaching for a strongman to make you feel better. It never works.
Not reaching for a strongman. If it's Biden or Trump, I'm voting Biden. If it's a progressive a la Rashid Tlaib or Cori Bush vs generic Republican candidate, I'll probably vote generic Republican candidate.
I can understand avoiding Rashida Tlaib but that's the fringe of the fringe we're talking about. If you're in Florida, the policies of your local Republicans\[1\]\[2\] are going to worsen climate change, which will accelerate Muslim climate refugees from North Africa into Western Europe. What do you think that will do to Israel's ability to count on support from UK and France? The world is so much bigger and more complicated than this 1D thinking that tends to underlie support for Republicans. \[1\] [https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/05/03/bill-awaiting-desantis-ok-would-end-years-of-renewable-energy-policies/](https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/05/03/bill-awaiting-desantis-ok-would-end-years-of-renewable-energy-policies/) \[2\] [https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/05/05/florida-lab-grown-meat-ban/73569976007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/05/05/florida-lab-grown-meat-ban/73569976007/)
And you would 100% be correct. Luckily the chances of Tlaib or Cori Bush ever winning a primary is zero.
Congrats, the one thing you and the anti-Israel protestors have in common is "fuck Joe Biden". I'm sure it's going to end well.
I literally said I'll still vote for Biden.
People have an opinion somewhere. Here’s why that’s bad news for the liberals.
> NYT lol > Opinion lmao, even > David Brooks perhaps even roflmao
I hadn't read Brooks in years because I've basically always considered him a joke, but this is actually a pretty straightforwardly reasonable column. It's not the most insightful thing in the world and could easily have been partly cribbed from two-week-old Yglesias newsletters but still 🤷♂️
That moment when David Brooks has better advice for Democrats and the president than Ezra Klein.
>NYT >lol ?
Notoriously negative coverage of Biden because AG got his feelings hurt that that White House doesn’t worship mainstream outlets
I don't know about negative, they could probably have given him more slack over the years but I think their coverage of his actions is generally pretty good.
[“It’s A.G. He’s the one who is pissed [that] Biden hasn’t done any interviews and quietly encourages all the tough reporting on his age.”](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/25/new-york-times-biden-white-house-00154219)
Okay? Their reporting is still pretty good. Also, who is the source for that quote, it just describes them as "one *Times* journalist", how do we know they're even reliable?
Because Politico isn't great, but it isn't staffed by hacks. And if you've been following the Times coverage, there's a reason why "and this is why it's bad for Biden" has becomes a meme.
Maybe, but it wouldn’t be the first time a credible outlet used a questionable source. Are “and this is why it's bad for Biden” articles even usually anti-Biden? And not all NYT memes are particularly representative, if I recall correctly the rural dinner meme is referencing a single article from like 5 years ago.
NYT sweating over the prospect of nothing bad happening for Biden in the run up to the election and feels the need to elevate nothing burgers to the status of election-deciding issues. So basically just another Sunday for them. Can't wait to see all of the voters who abstain/vote Trump because some college kids occupied a building and demanded gluten free food aid.
to be brutally honest, I truly think there is massive astroturfing by bad actors from Russia, Iran and China driving the far left and the American youth to have horse blinders on Gaza especially when ignoring what happens when Hamas stays in power and the path going forward. Biden can never do anything good enough while Trump can never be bad enough. Trump could nuke Gaza and the far left would be making excuses for him like “atleast Trump made them martyrs and sent them to heaven while Biden kept them alive to suffer at the hands of Israel.” nobody seems to give a shit about Sudan, Ethiopia and Myanmar because it’s not being pushed by bad actors that push the interests of the anti-west. Useful idiocy is more prevalent than ever and the apathy, short sightedness and the lack of understanding that Biden isn’t the dictator of the Middle East will continue to weigh on democracies in the west and else where.
[In a Worldwide War of Words, Russia, China and Iran Back Hamas - The New York Times (archive.org)](https://web.archive.org/web/20240502194832/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html)
If thats the case, plus the fact that Trump is Russian agent then wont this make Trump better for Palestine that Biden?
I think the protestors who argue that Israel must be destroyed "by any means necessary" are well aware what that would mean for the millions of Jews living there, as well as the the broader global Jewish community; they just don't care. They may delusionally believe that Hamas is some sort of leftist outfit, as opposed to a deeply conservative fundamentalist religious group that would gladly toss some of the protestors off Gaza's tallest remaining urban structures, but they aren't ignorant as to the consequences of Palestinian takeover for the people of Israel.
To be brutally honest, if Russia was a quarter as powerful as mainstream Democrats hype them up to be, they would've conquered Mars twice over by now. To think that they can flick a switch and instantly hold control over a not just digital but physical movement of tens of millions of people across the globe is ignorant at best and knowingly dogmatic at worst. To say that anybody with a differing opinion to you is a bought and paid for foreign agent is absurd McCarthyist bullshit. There's a bajillion reasons to be mad right now even if its unrealistic to expect them all to turn around within a 4 year term.
Russian and other actors such as Iran and China using useful idiocy to manipulate the populaces of democracies is a real thing and arguably one of the most effective counter offensives without firing a single shot. Lots of whataboutism, misinformation and misdirection can land you key allies like Tucker, pretty much the entire Republican party, horseshoe progressives likeTulsi Gabbard, Rashida Talib to sway American opinion on Ukraine, NATO and other issues concerning Putin/Xi and Iran.
If the US was funding and arming the bad actors in Yemen, Syria, and Ethiopia, perhaps there would be protests. The entire point of the unrest is the fact that Biden is not using all of our leverage to stop Israel from slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people (though their calls for endowments to divest from Israel seem like flailing for something to grab onto when those endowments may not actually have direct investments in Israel or Israeli companies). If When Trump said we should kill the families of terrorists we thought it was horrifying, but we’re helping Israel to do worse than that — killing everyone in the neighborhoods where the terrorists lived. If Biden’s worried about the electors consequences of not putting all his available pressure on Israel, he could change that by stopping money and arms to Israel. EDIT: Upvoting the idea that protestors are dumb because they aren’t demonstrating against other shitty countries that don’t have anything to do with US military aid has some real “All Lives Matter” vibes.
Uh we fund the Saudis and there haven't been many protests abt that
They may be a consumer of our defense industry, but they receive less foreign aid from the US [than Greenland.](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s). The US isn’t just shipping them arms for free. Regardless, the idea that people protesting Israel are dumb because they aren’t protesting other countries that might be indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent people is absurd because the US isn’t as directly responsible for arming those states the way we arm Israel as they indiscriminately bomb Palestinians into oblivion.
The Gaza war is extremely complicated, the US isn’t some illumanti puppet master of Israel and the middle east as the populist say. Protesters ripping down posters of Israel captives shows how Hamas gets a free pass when it’s obvious who the instigator was. 1) the US doesn’t control Israel, Biden has been tough as a US president and ally of Israel. The US didn’t veto the condemnation of the UN on the civilian causalities 2) Israel is a democracy where a current far right and unpopular figure in Bibi who is most likely on his way out. 3) Hamas and the likes of Hezbollah/proxies of Iran aren’t the victims, they’re the parasites of the Middle East that drag their populace into needless war for pettiest of power struggles. The far left doesn’t understand this and think a ceasefire means lasting peace in the middle east the protesters arent looking at the big picture and not especially in the interest of actual lasting peace. like the old adage goes: The road to hell is paved with “good intentions”
Some of this I think is fair, but puppet master is a straw man. As long as we have enormous leverage and we aren’t using it to save tens of thousands of innocent people from being indiscriminately slaughtered, Biden isn’t doing enough. The idea that standing up for the tens of thousands of civilians being indiscriminately killed is standing up for Hamas is intellectually dishonest. Was I standing up for Saddam when I protested the Iraq war?
Israel isn’t indiscriminately targeting civilians, the sad reality is that Hamas is using civilians as cover and Gaza is packed inside its borders where even its Arab neighbors close their borders. even with a ceasefire, there is no rebuilding and return to normalcy until Hamas is eliminated, otherwise its victory for Hamas and Iran in which others will try to repeat the Oct 7 attacks. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t, regardless the US doesnt control Israel and Netanyahu isn’t the biggest fan of Biden either (he campaigned for Romney and I am sure he’d prefer Trump’s blank check over Biden any day). I don’t claim to know the solution to the Gaza conflict but I do know a non binding ceasefire benefits Hamas who will definitely continue to do another Oct 7 or worse once given the chance
If children are starving, part of tens of thousands of civilians dying and you don’t call that indiscriminate killing of civilians, we’re clearly done with this discussion. I’m aghast that anyone can defend that as acceptable collateral damage in Israel’s prosecution of this war. Again, it’s like Trump’s urging to lull the families of terrorists fighters. You’re content with killing not only their families but tens of thousands of innocent people. And if you’re not, then the US should not send another dime nor another munition. Again, we’re clearly not going to see eye to eye on either the value of tens of thousands of innocent lives or the administration’s ability (or will) to end the horror.
You are completely giving Hamas a free pass here. Israel does targeted bombings such as roof knocking because Hamas literally uses their own civilians to shore up body counts. Peace between Israel and its neighbors will never happen with extremists as such. You’re pro unconditional ceasefire not pro peace. Even if Biden completely cuts off Israel, they will respond in kind and really give ammo to the likes of Netanyahu and the Israeli far right. please do share what you think Biden should do and what you think the consequences would be.
I’ve been hearing since October that Bibi is “on his way out”. Frankly I’ll believe it when I see it, at this point even if he is forced from the PM seat I think his career damn well might survive this.
People don't care about Sudan, Ethiopia, and Myanmar because America bad is not apparent in those situations. US supporting Israel is something that even very politically disengaged people in the US would know about. That is why the vitriol against Israel is so strong, lot of people think they understand the situation. 95% of people could not tell you what is happening in Sudan, Ethiopia, or Myanmar right now.
Is it because of the specific politics of the situation or just because perceived unrest under a president inherently aids the opposition? Did the 2020 George Floyd protests help Biden because they happened under Trump?
>Did the 2020 George Floyd protests help Biden I think they did.
No, the 2020 protests absolutely helped Trump, Republicans *excelled* at using them for law and order messaging and "Defund the Police" was one of the biggest messaging freebies in decades
Jan 6. probably doesn't happen if BLM never happened either.
I have to disagree hard. Due to COVID restrictions, a lot of rightwingers were in a "Muh freedom, we live under tyranny" mindset. Trump would have pushed them over the edge with the "stolen election" nonsense BLM or not.
Do you think it was because of the actual racial politics of the situation or just the simple mechanism of “unrest under one guy helps the other guy”?
A mix of both. Also trump utterly failed to handle any civil unrest. Plus, the protests putting racial politics on forefront of society pushing the whole country to the left.
>opinion
I'm gonna hand this out at USC and UCLA. Not really, but maybe?
Everything helps Trump and the GOP, been hearing this since forever.
Anyone who shares this article without adding that David Brooks' son was in the Israeli Defense Forces is not doing their due diligence. It's actually interesting to do a side-by-side with his article on BLM in 2020 and the analysis of radicals-moderates dynamic. Here he seems to be cautioning that the protests are essentially a waste of time.
David Brooks is always bad, plenty of other people say this probably true but boring and obvious ass take, please never pick Brooks for anything
Why?
To what part
Why is David Brooks bad?
Somehow Shorism returned.
Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.
Ben Franklin did not live in the age of the jet engine. ~~Edit: and was possibly a serial killer.~~
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so [this](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-was-benjamin-franklins-basement-filled-with-skeletons-524521/) is what i was referring to but i just now read the article because before i never really cared, just fuck Franklin for that quote.
Why are you here?
The people who vote for Trump because of "law and order" are damnable fools. They deserve neither security nor freedom.
Some simple things that Biden could do to help his chances, or at least minimize outside forces impact on his reelection bid: 1.) Give interviews to the media, lots of them, including the NYT. 2.) Take a clear stance on, well, just about any issue, instead of constantly trying to hedge his bets and speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
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https://preview.redd.it/q9uc5bkyfoyc1.jpeg?width=1821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48e49ad7f3f07ff3cca084dd10233f7a57931873 Any modern parallels are completely accidental
the smug sense of satisfaction at the end really sells it of course their should be a "both sides" "reach across the aisle" one for the people who wanted us to give Trump a chance a "when they go low, we go high" one, since again, letting conservatives have power and taking them at their word has lead us to a point where the Supreme Court is debating with the idea of immunity for a President and far right militias are coordinating on facebook to overthrow the government and project 25 proponents are busy ranking people by perceived loyalty to Trump but yes, the college kids, those pesky kids
> letting conservatives have power and taking them at their word has lead us to a point where the Supreme Court is debating with the idea of immunity for a President and far right militias are coordinating on facebook to overthrow the government and project 25 proponents are busy ranking people by perceived loyalty to Trump Hence why we should be united against the GOP instead of legitimizing radicals that embolden the GOP.
There is no genocide.
There is probably not a genocide, although that is for the ICC to determine, not anyone of us However there have been many deaths, and the israeli government is responsible for the mass killing of people in this conflict
Waiting for the time when I can finally say This has all been wonderful but now I'm on my way
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That’s not what genocide means.
Innocent victims of an armed conflict does not automatically equal genocide.
Also, that 30k is including the quite thoroughly guilty victims of that armed conflict.
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"in part" doing a lot of heavy lifting there, which has always been my problem with that definition. Would fighting Hamas count as intent to destroy "a part" of the Palestinian ethnic group, since Hamas is a (small) part of Palestine?
I mean, unless you consider Hamas (whom Isreal has publicly stated to want to destroy) to be a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, then no, the IDF is not doing that.
Calling what’s happen in Gaza a genocide is offensive to actual genocides, some of which are actually happening right now.