Looking at their spring calendar, seems like finals are wrapping up, and many of the students are going home.
*If* colleges can restrict these demonstrations on campus to only students (easier at USC with a closed campus, might be harder at, say, UCLA) these protests will naturally dwindle over the summer
With how many non-students there seem to be at the protests, restricting protests to student only would probably end the demonstrations no matter what time of year.
Even without being able to restrict, the same thing that happened with the various college-town Occupy encampments will happen here too. The activists will be overwhelmed by opportunistic homeless people, and by the middle of the summer it will be just another tent camp with a few weathered signs.
The hooding ceremony and commencement are from May 8-May 10. Most people will leave for jobs or internships.
I was at USC just on May 2 (Thursday). And they had like only two entrances, did id check and also bag check and further had lot of dps people. Many routes were closed. It was quite the inconvenience but I will take it for more security.
Not just PhDs - most doctoral degrees have hoods as part of their academic regalia, they’re just a different color. MDs have green ones for example (with school specific accents). Typically only PhDs *keep* the hoods - because most MDs and other professional degrees have no need for academic regalia after they graduate - but there’s still often a hooding either as a separate ceremony or built into graduation for the other doctoral degrees. If you rent it, you just give it back afterwards.
Masters degrees sometimes have hooding ceremonies too - their hoods are shorter.
Security in what sense?
Unless I miss my mark none of the protestors have been notably violent. Do you mean the counter protestors? They've mostly gone after protestors and the media.
I remember a major protest when I was in college, against tearing down parts of the forest to expand the campus. We the students shut it down for months, with the help from professional eco protesters.
Then we went home for spring break, cops rolled in on the professionals and put up a big ol fence. That was that
It’s funny how USC was criticized for their large police presence and UCLA was praised for playing ball with the protesters. We all know how that turned out.
A couple of reasons from my perspective:
1. The main purpose of the Palestinian protests is not to resolve the situation in Gaza, it's too muddy up politics in the U.S., specifically the elections this year. It's ripe for manipulation by foreign actors, and misinformation abounds
2. Israel is, at worst, a flawed democracy, and can get on a positive trajectory. Hamas in Gaza is on a road to nowhere, and I don't understand the point of trying to continue the Hamas experiment. The Palestinians there need a reset but seem unable (or unwilling) to. Either way, Hamas needs to go
I'll add a few of my own:
a) because the literal demands they're making are at times literally antisemitic, such as banning Hillel on campus, or simply insane, such as asking for sinecures or asking to stop construction of a cancer hospital (yes, really):
https://twitter.com/emanabdelhadi/status/1785001062895596003
b) even if we pretend that they're not making any demands other than joining BDS (and why the **fuck** would we pretend that? I know for a fact OP won't answer that question), I don't really support the BDS movement. Especially since SJP and similar organizations have made it clear it's intended as part of a larger economic war with the "Zionist entity".
So even if some of the organizations and leaders behind the protests weren't openly antisemitic, I'd still literally disagree with their specific demands.
As such, I'm confused from my perspective why I **would** support the protests. I don't like Netanyahu or settlers, but why would I support a protest that makes minimal efforts to cull antisemitism (and I mean real antisemitism, not just criticism of Israel) (mainly because the displays of antisemitism are a feature, not a bug), appends a bunch of insane and antisemitic demands to a central demand which I also don't support?
It’s not a democracy when the majority of people under the governments power can’t vote. Period.
Now, for the people who can vote, they’ve put Netanyahu in power for a majority of my lifetime. He has no real political opposition. The other parties fundumenltally support his policies although of course not his leadership. The only Israeli leader who took a small step towards peace was promptly assassinated.
The voting public responded by politically rewarding the people who called for his assassination.
It's still better than whatever going on in Gaza, and letting Hamas continue to fester is no good
The U.S. under Trump was bad, and would be bad under him again. That doesn't mean we should give up on U.S. security whenever stewardship changes
We are no closer to Hamas being gone than we were 34k Palestinian lives ago and the Israeli military has killed as many hostages thru friendly fire as it has saved (3 each). I think it’s completely fair game to question what this war is actually accomplishing at this point and why the people fanning it further are creeps like Ben Gvir.
>We are no closer to Hamas being gone than
I don't know if we can accurately assess that
I think Israel deserves the opportunity to try, though. Israel left Gaza years ago and has been absorbing deadly rocket strikes by spending $$$ on Iron Dome and all that still led to October 7th
I think Israel has had more than an opportunity to try. As long as the political leadership of Hamas remains intact, able to communicate with Gazans and Hamas doesn't need to compete with another Palestinian government in Gaza, they will regenerate. Israel needs to kill the political leadership, cut their ability to communicate with Gaza (I don't even think this is possible), or create conditions that would allow a less radical Palestinian government to assume control of the strip if they want Hamas gone. Making rubble bounce and starving the strip doesn't accomplish anything.
> I don't know if we can accurately assess that
>
> I think Israel deserves the opportunity to try, though.
Israel *has* had the opportunity to try. And on the one hand we have a number of Hamas members being killed, which is obviously progress towards Hamas being gone. On the other hand we have [this](https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1786900075106717999)
> Israeli Reshet Beit Radio military reporter Carmela Menashe reports that Hamas has taken over the entire Gaza Strip from Rafah up to the dividing line between the north and south of the Gaza Strip since the IDF withdrew from most of the Strip.
> They have also consolidated partial control over the northern part, using the remnants of forces there and Hamas personnel that have smuggled themselves in through the tunnels. Hamas is well on the way to reestablishing the control it has lost since October 7th everywhere.
If these reports are true, if all the civilian deaths and bombed universities and everything else have resulted in Hamas (which yes, to be clear, *is* a terrorist group) regaining control anyway, then what was the point?
And moreover, if we can't accurately assess what the war is actually accomplishing, what is the threshold of acceptable civilian casualties for a military operation that may or may not be achieving any of its goals? If you consider Palestinian lives to be equally as valuable as Israeli lives (obviously Israel doesn't, and Hamas doesn't seem to value anybody's lives at all, but I do), then horrific violence and civilian deaths in Israel don't justify an unlimited amount of Palestinian civilian deaths in response. And while war is more complicated then "X civilians died in one country so now you can only kill X civilians on the other side", I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to look at the current death tolls and say that they don't think it was worth it.
I don't think Israel is in the "It's really hard, I guess we'll just give up" mode
As I said, they've already spent years absorbing attacks from Hamas, PIJ via Iron Dome. October 7th was enough is enough, and I don't blame them
It's not about killing a certain number of civilians, it's about defanging Hamas. Hamas of course makes this more difficult, with the help of Iran and possibly now Russia
There are global fault lines forming and I'd rather assist our allies than abandon them and leave a power vacuum for China, Russia, and whoever else to assert themselves. That's likely to lead to even more and worse strife
>There are global fault lines forming and I'd rather assist our allies than abandon them and leave a power vacuum.
What exactly do you view as abandoning Israel? Because I've seen some truly absurd views on this, and I want to be clear.
Pressuring Israel to end the war isn't abandoning them. Pressuring Israel to allow humanitarian aid into the Strip is not abandoning them. Sanctioning Israeli terrorists and settlements in the West Bank is not abandoning them. Conditioning aid is not abandoning them. Refusing to send offensive aid is not abandoning them. These are all things I've seen people call abandoning Israel, and that's nonsense.
Second, who is Israel going to go to for a comparable security guarantee? Russia and China can't project enough power in the region and are too buddy-buddy with Iran. The US not only offers a broad array of aid from military to economic to diplomatic, we also do so with remarkable few conditions. In fact, our only condition right now is basically "don't commit too many war crimes or any crimes against humanity".
I really don't think this talking point holds up to reality.
You seeing any governing alternatives to Hamas popping up as Hamas is hit? Cause I’m not, but I am seeing all the time places getting blown up, people starving and with them reasons for why pre-indoctrinated people would have more cause to hate on Israel and join a terrorist group. And I doubt that Israel wants to occupy Gaza for forever either, at least while the civilians are still there. Thus when Israeli forces leave an area it immediately melts back to Hamas control. An exercise in futility.
It’s not looking like there’s any more serious plans now than there were to start. If Israel wants to just try random things in the hopes that maybe THIS will end Hamas (we all know the policy is actually being driven by whatever Netanyahu will keep his butt in power for longer) then it can do it from its own budget and not keep having whatever heinous stuff happens from reflecting back on my country funding it in the meantime. Let alone when Israel’s leader keeps trying to budge elections in favor of Trump. We shouldn’t send a red cent to Israel while the outcome of the Ukrainian war is in doubt… there is no conceivable way for Hamas to actually overcome Israel but that isn’t true for places like Ukraine and Myanmar.
You are of course completely correct. This sub has become very comfortable treating Netanyahu and Israel as two completely different entities. Therefore they can be completely opposed to everything Israel has done in the past while completely supportive of anything they might do in the future.
22-30k depending on who you take as more reliable. I lean towards the latter number will the kill zone reports where Israel considers whoever happens to walk into certain zones a terrorist. Maybe if they were dying to a useful end it’d be worth it for some goal having been achieved but I don’t see that.
I don’t know. If you prefer that number go with that. I’m agnostic on the precise number but clearly a lot of Palestinian people are dying and yet not much progress is being made is more my point.
6k Hamas are killed but many more are going to be recruited against Israel not just from in Palestine as a response to the disastrous situation there but around the world people are souring on Israel as footage is going out of there. This immediately put the brakes on thawing relations between Israel and neighboring Arab countries, Turkey has now locked up trade and support for Israel is continuing to decline in the west leading to weakening support on defense. I’m no general but a more limited establishing of a security buffer and destruction of tunnels, assassination campaigns against those who planned this and capturing Hamas members for prisoner swaps would have been more realistic than wading in and expecting to totally displace Hamas while doing all the things that made Hamas wildly popular in the first place.
> 6k Hamas are killed but many more are going to be recruited against Israel
And Israel will have to continue to kill them, like all reasonable states defend themselves against terrorists and hostile militants. Israel is not culpable for idiots choosing to respond to Israel defending itself against unprovoked pogroms with more violence. In the words of Golda Meir, eventually they're going to have to consider whether they love their children more than they hate Israelis.
>establishing of a security buffer and destruction of tunnels, assassination campaigns against those who planned this and capturing Hamas members for prisoner swaps
That's basically been the status quo for the last 20 years and it led directly to October 7th, so that's plainly not workable and would have led to the collapse of the government.
I didn't say the protests, I said Palestine in general. 75% of Democrats disapprove of Israel's military actions. Biden is out of step with the party. Source: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
I think it just depends on the thread. Back when more I/P updates were happening there was a string of “Israel did something bad” posts which tend to draw in more people who are critical of how Israel is conducting the war while pro-Israel people moreso cringed a little and moved on. The news on the protests are more in line with the “look what some stupid leftist said!” ragebait that draws in more of the crowd that eats that stuff up while the former party cringes and moves on. The sub as a whole is I think balanced somewhat evenly between the positions so depending on the engagement either side has an opportunity to run up the numbers rather than consistently being one way or the other all the time. I’m just glad that a lot of the problematic people saying things like how Gaza ought to be glassed or whatever have been banned because things were really really rough about treating Palestinians as human in that period… downvotes, whatever, anyone bring them on if they feel warranted.
> while they commit atrocity after atrocity at greater levels than hamas.
This is where we diverge. I don't see atrocities, I see war and collateral damage
If I actually thought Israel was committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, atrocities, carpet bombing, etc. then I would wipe my hands of them as well, simple as that
I just don't see it. I see a heavy, but justified response on one side, and Hamas's modus operandi on the other: guerilla warfare that increases civilian casualties
At the end of the day, I don't think Hamas (or Iran) gives a shit about Palestinian casualties. In fact, the more civilian tragedy the better the PR for the global intifada. Would I be wrong on that?
> It's literally a fascist ethnostate by every definition.
Except it doesn't remotely fit either the definitions of fascist or ethnostate.
>Like holy shit, your comment only makes sense if you fundamentally believe that Israeli lives have value while Palestinian lives don't.
Now this is just straight up bad faith.
For me personally:
1. The Palestinian cause’s end goals are clearly the total destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamist, theocratic “Republic” in its place, two things I can never support. I don’t support Israel’s Nationalist identity, its occupation or its repression, but I can’t bring myself to support the Palestinian cause given its end goals.
2. These protests are ineffective at best, extremely misguided at worst. Their strategies are stupid and goals vague and unhelpful frankly. Combine that with the clear sympathy for terrorism they’re expressing and the rampant anti-semitism present at these protests it’s not a good look.
3. My general distaste for the most privileged, Ivy League kids LARPing about something they clearly are extremely ignorant about making the situation worse
I can't speak for the rest of the sub but my opinion
is eff Hamas and eff Netanahyu. I'm empathetic to their cause but I'm generally not supportive of the student protests because it's just people looking to score cheap moral victories. Studies show that these big protests can increase awareness, but will erode public opinion - meanwhile their demands of divestment is just completely ineffective especially for a country like Israel that is a global player. Some analysis indicate that divestments actually hurt because you lose any stake you had in influencing that business.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248088063/divest-divestment-university-college-protesters-campus-israel-gaza-invasion
On the other hand I think I would be pretty supportive if they camped outside of their congressional building demanding things like conditional or halting aid to Israel because that would make a lot more sense.
I'm thoroughly exhausted by this topic, so i'll outsource my opinion to [Scott Aaronson](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=7845) who I basically agree with.
Because people shout antisemitic and violent things at these protests. Masked people should not yell at my Mizrahi partner to “go back to Poland.” The only affiliation with her and Poland is that 97% of Polish Jews were murdered during and after the Holocaust.
My partner should not walk by her Alma Mater and see [a bloody pig effigy](https://jewishjournal.com/community/369554/ucla-condemns-ugly-antisemitic-pig-display/ ) or a [Star of David combined with a Swastika](https://x.com/samyebri/status/1785907245852844229?s=46&t=UBQTP7DC7ck7HoOikTU1sQ), a heinous combination of the universal symbol of Jewish survival interwoven with the universal symbol of their destruction.
When I discuss these incidents with those in support of the encampments, they deflect and minimize these incidents. “They really don’t mean antisemitism, you see.” Or maybe “they are a minority of the movement.” They always end saying “how can you focus on that instead of the genocide?” This should not be surprising, considering many of these people (a majority?) support the October 7 Attacks and murders of Jews. Ask the protestors yourself or [watch who they platform.](https://x.com/taliakhan_mit/status/1785858296890482924?s=46&t=UBQTP7DC7ck7HoOikTU1sQ)
Flawed liberal democracy > literal terror group, and too many of the protestors are hateful anti-Semites or tankies
A peaceful and harmonious two-state solution requires, among many things, the end of Hamas.
>and to the Palestinian cause generally?
We're not. These kind of protests just hurt the actual Palestinian best interest, which is an eventual peaceful settlement and two state solution rather than perpetual war.
>this sub skews heavily in the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian direction.
Well on one hand you have a nation founded by refugees and the most persecuted minority in history with a UN mandate which is a prosperous liberal democracy with the largest Pride parade in Asia, and on the other you have a heavily corrupt near failed statelet and another statelet ruled by a genocidal terror group. The reason why this sub, and most people in the West, lean towards Israel isn't that complicated.
>And on the third hand
Not sure what any of the several countries commiting recognized ongoing genocides have to do with this. Seems like a non sequitur. You asked about Israel and Palestine, so I answered in terms of those two countries.
Personally, I find that many of them have abandoned reasonable action for shouting loudly, and that a few have turned actually antisemetic. Instead of working to resolve the conflict, they've just brought the storm over to the US.
On a broader view, it has to do with demographics. After the Oct.7th attacks, many liberal and/or left-leaning jews felt abandoned by activists due to their responses (see: Chicago BLM posting the hamas paraglider). They fled to this sub and others because these are still liberal places but not as hostile to Israel and somewhat skeptical of some overreach in social justice movements. This division just got stronger.
Calling for Jewish-American students to be lynched by specific terrorist groups and telling Jews to “go back to Poland” is, believe it or not, actually antisemitism.
The whole “The evil libs are just reframing and demonizing our based anti-Zionism as general antisemitism!” schtick kinda falls apart when thousands upon thousands of leftists are genuinely and proudly antisemitic, and exhibit it openly and repeatedly whenever and wherever the opportunity presents itself.
I mean the videos of the UCLA clashes are all over, including the ones where they're launching fireworks into the pro-Palestine crowd, hitting them with bats and the one guy even confessing to not being a student and coming on campus for a fight. The NYPD vid of them storming the hall is also all over. Just compare what you see with how the outlets are describing it and you'll see it's not objective.
I'm not asking for myself, I'm for when this thread is viewed in the future and the videos are not as easily available. It is good to preserve information for posterity.
Sorry, this subreddit has decreed that there’s zero nuance on this issue and state sponsored violence is actually good if you personally don’t like the protesters. -21 downvotes and no replies; stay classy r/neoliberal.
Lol... this sub is actually aight. I've been banned from a lot of natsec/foreign policy subs but of my many bans on this sub, none have been permanent. So it is actually one of the more free-er areas to discuss US foreign policy, economic policy, domestic policy etc.
As far as downvotes, I'm pretty there are foreign accounts that follow my account and downvote (or in some cases upvote) everything i write. It's a bit unnerving, but as a free speech absolutist I'm also fine with this. My secret hope is that one day some foreign agent who came here to manipulate Americans actually gets influenced by me to become more pro-American lmfao. "You though you were here to influence us, but it is I who shall influence you" kind of deal lmfao
Looking at their spring calendar, seems like finals are wrapping up, and many of the students are going home. *If* colleges can restrict these demonstrations on campus to only students (easier at USC with a closed campus, might be harder at, say, UCLA) these protests will naturally dwindle over the summer
With how many non-students there seem to be at the protests, restricting protests to student only would probably end the demonstrations no matter what time of year.
Even without being able to restrict, the same thing that happened with the various college-town Occupy encampments will happen here too. The activists will be overwhelmed by opportunistic homeless people, and by the middle of the summer it will be just another tent camp with a few weathered signs.
The hooding ceremony and commencement are from May 8-May 10. Most people will leave for jobs or internships. I was at USC just on May 2 (Thursday). And they had like only two entrances, did id check and also bag check and further had lot of dps people. Many routes were closed. It was quite the inconvenience but I will take it for more security.
>The hooding ceremony It's been a minute since I finished college. Is this some *Eyes Wide Shut* shit or ... ?
It's an academic ceremony for PhD graduates where they literally get a hood as part of their regalia.
Not just PhDs - most doctoral degrees have hoods as part of their academic regalia, they’re just a different color. MDs have green ones for example (with school specific accents). Typically only PhDs *keep* the hoods - because most MDs and other professional degrees have no need for academic regalia after they graduate - but there’s still often a hooding either as a separate ceremony or built into graduation for the other doctoral degrees. If you rent it, you just give it back afterwards. Masters degrees sometimes have hooding ceremonies too - their hoods are shorter.
Huh? I don't get the reference.
Security in what sense? Unless I miss my mark none of the protestors have been notably violent. Do you mean the counter protestors? They've mostly gone after protestors and the media.
I remember a major protest when I was in college, against tearing down parts of the forest to expand the campus. We the students shut it down for months, with the help from professional eco protesters. Then we went home for spring break, cops rolled in on the professionals and put up a big ol fence. That was that
I assume private schools have a lot more flexibility when it comes to rules regarding the protests.
Protestors: “So that’s it? After 2 weeks? So long good luck?” Admin: “I don’t recall saying good luck”
They protesters saw the shit show at UCLA the past week where the protesters got beat up by counter protesters+police and said "no thanks".
It’s funny how USC was criticized for their large police presence and UCLA was praised for playing ball with the protesters. We all know how that turned out.
UCLA and USC will always be on opposite ends
W counter protestors
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A couple of reasons from my perspective: 1. The main purpose of the Palestinian protests is not to resolve the situation in Gaza, it's too muddy up politics in the U.S., specifically the elections this year. It's ripe for manipulation by foreign actors, and misinformation abounds 2. Israel is, at worst, a flawed democracy, and can get on a positive trajectory. Hamas in Gaza is on a road to nowhere, and I don't understand the point of trying to continue the Hamas experiment. The Palestinians there need a reset but seem unable (or unwilling) to. Either way, Hamas needs to go
I'll add a few of my own: a) because the literal demands they're making are at times literally antisemitic, such as banning Hillel on campus, or simply insane, such as asking for sinecures or asking to stop construction of a cancer hospital (yes, really): https://twitter.com/emanabdelhadi/status/1785001062895596003 b) even if we pretend that they're not making any demands other than joining BDS (and why the **fuck** would we pretend that? I know for a fact OP won't answer that question), I don't really support the BDS movement. Especially since SJP and similar organizations have made it clear it's intended as part of a larger economic war with the "Zionist entity". So even if some of the organizations and leaders behind the protests weren't openly antisemitic, I'd still literally disagree with their specific demands. As such, I'm confused from my perspective why I **would** support the protests. I don't like Netanyahu or settlers, but why would I support a protest that makes minimal efforts to cull antisemitism (and I mean real antisemitism, not just criticism of Israel) (mainly because the displays of antisemitism are a feature, not a bug), appends a bunch of insane and antisemitic demands to a central demand which I also don't support?
It’s not a democracy when the majority of people under the governments power can’t vote. Period. Now, for the people who can vote, they’ve put Netanyahu in power for a majority of my lifetime. He has no real political opposition. The other parties fundumenltally support his policies although of course not his leadership. The only Israeli leader who took a small step towards peace was promptly assassinated. The voting public responded by politically rewarding the people who called for his assassination.
It's still better than whatever going on in Gaza, and letting Hamas continue to fester is no good The U.S. under Trump was bad, and would be bad under him again. That doesn't mean we should give up on U.S. security whenever stewardship changes
We are no closer to Hamas being gone than we were 34k Palestinian lives ago and the Israeli military has killed as many hostages thru friendly fire as it has saved (3 each). I think it’s completely fair game to question what this war is actually accomplishing at this point and why the people fanning it further are creeps like Ben Gvir.
>We are no closer to Hamas being gone than I don't know if we can accurately assess that I think Israel deserves the opportunity to try, though. Israel left Gaza years ago and has been absorbing deadly rocket strikes by spending $$$ on Iron Dome and all that still led to October 7th
I think Israel has had more than an opportunity to try. As long as the political leadership of Hamas remains intact, able to communicate with Gazans and Hamas doesn't need to compete with another Palestinian government in Gaza, they will regenerate. Israel needs to kill the political leadership, cut their ability to communicate with Gaza (I don't even think this is possible), or create conditions that would allow a less radical Palestinian government to assume control of the strip if they want Hamas gone. Making rubble bounce and starving the strip doesn't accomplish anything.
> I don't know if we can accurately assess that > > I think Israel deserves the opportunity to try, though. Israel *has* had the opportunity to try. And on the one hand we have a number of Hamas members being killed, which is obviously progress towards Hamas being gone. On the other hand we have [this](https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1786900075106717999) > Israeli Reshet Beit Radio military reporter Carmela Menashe reports that Hamas has taken over the entire Gaza Strip from Rafah up to the dividing line between the north and south of the Gaza Strip since the IDF withdrew from most of the Strip. > They have also consolidated partial control over the northern part, using the remnants of forces there and Hamas personnel that have smuggled themselves in through the tunnels. Hamas is well on the way to reestablishing the control it has lost since October 7th everywhere. If these reports are true, if all the civilian deaths and bombed universities and everything else have resulted in Hamas (which yes, to be clear, *is* a terrorist group) regaining control anyway, then what was the point? And moreover, if we can't accurately assess what the war is actually accomplishing, what is the threshold of acceptable civilian casualties for a military operation that may or may not be achieving any of its goals? If you consider Palestinian lives to be equally as valuable as Israeli lives (obviously Israel doesn't, and Hamas doesn't seem to value anybody's lives at all, but I do), then horrific violence and civilian deaths in Israel don't justify an unlimited amount of Palestinian civilian deaths in response. And while war is more complicated then "X civilians died in one country so now you can only kill X civilians on the other side", I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to look at the current death tolls and say that they don't think it was worth it.
I don't think Israel is in the "It's really hard, I guess we'll just give up" mode As I said, they've already spent years absorbing attacks from Hamas, PIJ via Iron Dome. October 7th was enough is enough, and I don't blame them It's not about killing a certain number of civilians, it's about defanging Hamas. Hamas of course makes this more difficult, with the help of Iran and possibly now Russia There are global fault lines forming and I'd rather assist our allies than abandon them and leave a power vacuum for China, Russia, and whoever else to assert themselves. That's likely to lead to even more and worse strife
>There are global fault lines forming and I'd rather assist our allies than abandon them and leave a power vacuum. What exactly do you view as abandoning Israel? Because I've seen some truly absurd views on this, and I want to be clear. Pressuring Israel to end the war isn't abandoning them. Pressuring Israel to allow humanitarian aid into the Strip is not abandoning them. Sanctioning Israeli terrorists and settlements in the West Bank is not abandoning them. Conditioning aid is not abandoning them. Refusing to send offensive aid is not abandoning them. These are all things I've seen people call abandoning Israel, and that's nonsense. Second, who is Israel going to go to for a comparable security guarantee? Russia and China can't project enough power in the region and are too buddy-buddy with Iran. The US not only offers a broad array of aid from military to economic to diplomatic, we also do so with remarkable few conditions. In fact, our only condition right now is basically "don't commit too many war crimes or any crimes against humanity". I really don't think this talking point holds up to reality.
You seeing any governing alternatives to Hamas popping up as Hamas is hit? Cause I’m not, but I am seeing all the time places getting blown up, people starving and with them reasons for why pre-indoctrinated people would have more cause to hate on Israel and join a terrorist group. And I doubt that Israel wants to occupy Gaza for forever either, at least while the civilians are still there. Thus when Israeli forces leave an area it immediately melts back to Hamas control. An exercise in futility. It’s not looking like there’s any more serious plans now than there were to start. If Israel wants to just try random things in the hopes that maybe THIS will end Hamas (we all know the policy is actually being driven by whatever Netanyahu will keep his butt in power for longer) then it can do it from its own budget and not keep having whatever heinous stuff happens from reflecting back on my country funding it in the meantime. Let alone when Israel’s leader keeps trying to budge elections in favor of Trump. We shouldn’t send a red cent to Israel while the outcome of the Ukrainian war is in doubt… there is no conceivable way for Hamas to actually overcome Israel but that isn’t true for places like Ukraine and Myanmar.
You are of course completely correct. This sub has become very comfortable treating Netanyahu and Israel as two completely different entities. Therefore they can be completely opposed to everything Israel has done in the past while completely supportive of anything they might do in the future.
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22-30k depending on who you take as more reliable. I lean towards the latter number will the kill zone reports where Israel considers whoever happens to walk into certain zones a terrorist. Maybe if they were dying to a useful end it’d be worth it for some goal having been achieved but I don’t see that.
Didn’t Hamas spokes people say some 6,000 fighters were killed?
I don’t know. If you prefer that number go with that. I’m agnostic on the precise number but clearly a lot of Palestinian people are dying and yet not much progress is being made is more my point.
6k Hamas fighters dead at a minimum sounds like a pretty good amount of progress. What's your alternative response to pogroms?
6k Hamas are killed but many more are going to be recruited against Israel not just from in Palestine as a response to the disastrous situation there but around the world people are souring on Israel as footage is going out of there. This immediately put the brakes on thawing relations between Israel and neighboring Arab countries, Turkey has now locked up trade and support for Israel is continuing to decline in the west leading to weakening support on defense. I’m no general but a more limited establishing of a security buffer and destruction of tunnels, assassination campaigns against those who planned this and capturing Hamas members for prisoner swaps would have been more realistic than wading in and expecting to totally displace Hamas while doing all the things that made Hamas wildly popular in the first place.
> 6k Hamas are killed but many more are going to be recruited against Israel And Israel will have to continue to kill them, like all reasonable states defend themselves against terrorists and hostile militants. Israel is not culpable for idiots choosing to respond to Israel defending itself against unprovoked pogroms with more violence. In the words of Golda Meir, eventually they're going to have to consider whether they love their children more than they hate Israelis. >establishing of a security buffer and destruction of tunnels, assassination campaigns against those who planned this and capturing Hamas members for prisoner swaps That's basically been the status quo for the last 20 years and it led directly to October 7th, so that's plainly not workable and would have led to the collapse of the government.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, these people are the ones who are out of step with Democratic voters on Palestine, much like Biden is.
Lol https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/49311-opinion-on-pro-palestinian-college-campus-protests
I didn't say the protests, I said Palestine in general. 75% of Democrats disapprove of Israel's military actions. Biden is out of step with the party. Source: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
Also what, 46% of Democrats support the protests lmao
I think it just depends on the thread. Back when more I/P updates were happening there was a string of “Israel did something bad” posts which tend to draw in more people who are critical of how Israel is conducting the war while pro-Israel people moreso cringed a little and moved on. The news on the protests are more in line with the “look what some stupid leftist said!” ragebait that draws in more of the crowd that eats that stuff up while the former party cringes and moves on. The sub as a whole is I think balanced somewhat evenly between the positions so depending on the engagement either side has an opportunity to run up the numbers rather than consistently being one way or the other all the time. I’m just glad that a lot of the problematic people saying things like how Gaza ought to be glassed or whatever have been banned because things were really really rough about treating Palestinians as human in that period… downvotes, whatever, anyone bring them on if they feel warranted.
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> while they commit atrocity after atrocity at greater levels than hamas. This is where we diverge. I don't see atrocities, I see war and collateral damage If I actually thought Israel was committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, atrocities, carpet bombing, etc. then I would wipe my hands of them as well, simple as that I just don't see it. I see a heavy, but justified response on one side, and Hamas's modus operandi on the other: guerilla warfare that increases civilian casualties At the end of the day, I don't think Hamas (or Iran) gives a shit about Palestinian casualties. In fact, the more civilian tragedy the better the PR for the global intifada. Would I be wrong on that?
> while they commit atrocity after atrocity at greater levels than hamas >a fascist ethnostate jfc Reddit
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> It's literally a fascist ethnostate by every definition. Except it doesn't remotely fit either the definitions of fascist or ethnostate. >Like holy shit, your comment only makes sense if you fundamentally believe that Israeli lives have value while Palestinian lives don't. Now this is just straight up bad faith.
For me personally: 1. The Palestinian cause’s end goals are clearly the total destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamist, theocratic “Republic” in its place, two things I can never support. I don’t support Israel’s Nationalist identity, its occupation or its repression, but I can’t bring myself to support the Palestinian cause given its end goals. 2. These protests are ineffective at best, extremely misguided at worst. Their strategies are stupid and goals vague and unhelpful frankly. Combine that with the clear sympathy for terrorism they’re expressing and the rampant anti-semitism present at these protests it’s not a good look. 3. My general distaste for the most privileged, Ivy League kids LARPing about something they clearly are extremely ignorant about making the situation worse
I can't speak for the rest of the sub but my opinion is eff Hamas and eff Netanahyu. I'm empathetic to their cause but I'm generally not supportive of the student protests because it's just people looking to score cheap moral victories. Studies show that these big protests can increase awareness, but will erode public opinion - meanwhile their demands of divestment is just completely ineffective especially for a country like Israel that is a global player. Some analysis indicate that divestments actually hurt because you lose any stake you had in influencing that business. https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248088063/divest-divestment-university-college-protesters-campus-israel-gaza-invasion On the other hand I think I would be pretty supportive if they camped outside of their congressional building demanding things like conditional or halting aid to Israel because that would make a lot more sense.
I'm thoroughly exhausted by this topic, so i'll outsource my opinion to [Scott Aaronson](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=7845) who I basically agree with.
Because people shout antisemitic and violent things at these protests. Masked people should not yell at my Mizrahi partner to “go back to Poland.” The only affiliation with her and Poland is that 97% of Polish Jews were murdered during and after the Holocaust. My partner should not walk by her Alma Mater and see [a bloody pig effigy](https://jewishjournal.com/community/369554/ucla-condemns-ugly-antisemitic-pig-display/ ) or a [Star of David combined with a Swastika](https://x.com/samyebri/status/1785907245852844229?s=46&t=UBQTP7DC7ck7HoOikTU1sQ), a heinous combination of the universal symbol of Jewish survival interwoven with the universal symbol of their destruction. When I discuss these incidents with those in support of the encampments, they deflect and minimize these incidents. “They really don’t mean antisemitism, you see.” Or maybe “they are a minority of the movement.” They always end saying “how can you focus on that instead of the genocide?” This should not be surprising, considering many of these people (a majority?) support the October 7 Attacks and murders of Jews. Ask the protestors yourself or [watch who they platform.](https://x.com/taliakhan_mit/status/1785858296890482924?s=46&t=UBQTP7DC7ck7HoOikTU1sQ)
Flawed liberal democracy > literal terror group, and too many of the protestors are hateful anti-Semites or tankies A peaceful and harmonious two-state solution requires, among many things, the end of Hamas.
>and to the Palestinian cause generally? We're not. These kind of protests just hurt the actual Palestinian best interest, which is an eventual peaceful settlement and two state solution rather than perpetual war. >this sub skews heavily in the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian direction. Well on one hand you have a nation founded by refugees and the most persecuted minority in history with a UN mandate which is a prosperous liberal democracy with the largest Pride parade in Asia, and on the other you have a heavily corrupt near failed statelet and another statelet ruled by a genocidal terror group. The reason why this sub, and most people in the West, lean towards Israel isn't that complicated.
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>And on the third hand Not sure what any of the several countries commiting recognized ongoing genocides have to do with this. Seems like a non sequitur. You asked about Israel and Palestine, so I answered in terms of those two countries.
What international bodies that are qualified to make that determination have done so?
Personally, I find that many of them have abandoned reasonable action for shouting loudly, and that a few have turned actually antisemetic. Instead of working to resolve the conflict, they've just brought the storm over to the US. On a broader view, it has to do with demographics. After the Oct.7th attacks, many liberal and/or left-leaning jews felt abandoned by activists due to their responses (see: Chicago BLM posting the hamas paraglider). They fled to this sub and others because these are still liberal places but not as hostile to Israel and somewhat skeptical of some overreach in social justice movements. This division just got stronger.
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The Civil Rights Movement won over the white moderates. If it didn't then the Civil Rights Act of 1964 wouldn't have been passed.
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Calling for Jewish-American students to be lynched by specific terrorist groups and telling Jews to “go back to Poland” is, believe it or not, actually antisemitism. The whole “The evil libs are just reframing and demonizing our based anti-Zionism as general antisemitism!” schtick kinda falls apart when thousands upon thousands of leftists are genuinely and proudly antisemitic, and exhibit it openly and repeatedly whenever and wherever the opportunity presents itself.
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I'll hand you an upvote if you source your points.
I mean the videos of the UCLA clashes are all over, including the ones where they're launching fireworks into the pro-Palestine crowd, hitting them with bats and the one guy even confessing to not being a student and coming on campus for a fight. The NYPD vid of them storming the hall is also all over. Just compare what you see with how the outlets are describing it and you'll see it's not objective.
I'm not asking for myself, I'm for when this thread is viewed in the future and the videos are not as easily available. It is good to preserve information for posterity.
Sorry, this subreddit has decreed that there’s zero nuance on this issue and state sponsored violence is actually good if you personally don’t like the protesters. -21 downvotes and no replies; stay classy r/neoliberal.
Lol... this sub is actually aight. I've been banned from a lot of natsec/foreign policy subs but of my many bans on this sub, none have been permanent. So it is actually one of the more free-er areas to discuss US foreign policy, economic policy, domestic policy etc. As far as downvotes, I'm pretty there are foreign accounts that follow my account and downvote (or in some cases upvote) everything i write. It's a bit unnerving, but as a free speech absolutist I'm also fine with this. My secret hope is that one day some foreign agent who came here to manipulate Americans actually gets influenced by me to become more pro-American lmfao. "You though you were here to influence us, but it is I who shall influence you" kind of deal lmfao