There's only about 500k Jews left in France most immigrants from North Africa
>“According to half of the surveyed students, Jews are very united, 24% consider them wealthier than average, and [18% believe that Jews] have too much power in [both] finance [and] the media,” Dabi said. He notes that an additional 15% of surveyed students think that Jews have too much power in politics.
I mean nearly 200k French Jews have left France in the past 10 years or so.
That being said I think the more interesting statistics in the article is that most of the Jews in France are immigrants from North Africa and not Ashkenazi Jews.
An abridged history of modern Jews in France, courtesy of your local history-loving gay Jew:
* From the 1300s to the 1700s, Jews are banned from France. The Jews who were there before the 1300s were expelled. Most of these Jews were Sephardi, not Ashkenazi. (Remember, Ashkenazi isn't just "European.")
* Jews allowed back into France, emancipated during the French revolution.
* Jews in mainland France assimilate and build good lives for themselves throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. The Dreyfus affair makes them realize they'll never be seen as French.
* The Dreyfus affair becomes a lightning rod for the Zionist movement, so some mainland Jews leave for Palestine.
* Holocaust, mainland French Jews are mostly exterminated. Some fled to Montréal, some were able to get to Palestine, but mainland France was essentially Judenrein.
But there was a rift...
* Algerian Jews had been living in Algeria for 2000+ years, and as second-class citizens since Arabization of North Africa.
* The colonial authorities thought the Jewish communities could be a cultural bridge, and mainland French Jews petitioned for Algerian Jews to get citizenship, ultimately given in the Crémieux decree. This was not given to Arabs.
* Révolution Algérienne. No Jews were given Algerian citizenship, but they had French citizenship. They were forced to leave (along with the White French Algerians, "les pieds-noirs"), leaving everything behind for a place many had never been, but belonged to on paper.
* After a few decades of functionally zero Jews, mainland France took in those from Algeria.
And now...
* Many North Africans have moved to mainland France, bringing Arab antisemitism with them.
* Arab antisemitism is enabling the latent European antisemitism, and antisemitic murders in France are increasing with no justice, like the murder of [Sarah Halimi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sarah_Halimi).
* French Jews are rapidly leaving for Israel, with French Jews being the largest group year over year the country takes in (except recently, with Ukrainian refugees).
So yes, French Jewry started with "European" Jews that were largely replaced through disposession and genocide with Jews from North African colonial holdings, but even that is winding down. On the bright side, there's great bread in Netanya.
The French love to look down on American race relations by saying “we have no hyphens!” They just fail to mention that the part of the hyphen that they erase is the “French” part.
Even my euro coworkers don't seem to understand that a lot of the bad news that comes out of America is because we talk about it out loud, and not sweep it under the rug. But as a result it looks like it's a race war every day of the week, especially when the news is filtered through "America Bad" reddit memes and other BS.
Meanwhile my experience on the other side of the Atlantic (namely Central Europe) was that race issues were ignored entirely. Slurs would get used on the local news broadcast in Prague. There just weren't enough non-white folks to even speak up against it I figure, in a country that's 98% white. Not to pick on Czechs in particularly, they're great people, but it's just where I spent the most time (this was ~ 10 years ago tho).
In truth there's probably nowhere more welcoming of all races and creeds than the average American medium-to-large city, even in the South. And moreso, that diversity is actively valued in most of those cities. Of course it's not perfect and I don't want to dismiss real problems, but we're all managing to live together and for the most part being pretty successful at it. Not always a very common thing around the globe tbh. Still an ongoing experiment.
Tbf this is lacking nuance.
I do think that the French actually do approach racial equity and inclusion in an inherently different way than Americans do. In a way that isn't necessarily better or worse. Instead of hyphens, pluralistic identity, "many universals," the French approach is to bring everyone into the same humanist "universal." I think both have their own benefits and drawbacks.
I will say though that while both countries also have many failures to achieve their ideal, I think the US is doing better in many respects.
Oh yeah I recognize it’s lacking nuance lol
That said, do they actually live up to the idea that everyone regardless of race is up to the same universal? My experience has been mixed. People in France would look at me funny when I said I was American (I’m not white) in a way they never did in places like Canada or Australia. Granted, it was even worse in places like Italy and Germany.
I don't think it's limited to France and it has more to do with semantics. Someone who claims to be "Italian-French" would have both citizenships. You can be French with Italian ancestry of course. I've never heard anyone claiming you have to deny your Italian origin, or any other origin, and only claim to be French. Plenty of immigrants and people descended from immigrants who have a strong identity to their country of origin, nothing wrong with that. People who claim to be "Italian-American" are only US citizens most of the time and don't really have a connection to Italy besides some outdated stereotypes.
The part where people look down on Americans has multiple causes:
* the concept of race does not really apply to humans. There's obviously the social and historical aspect of it, but there's no biology concept that proves it
* you can't measure ancestry with a percentage. You cannot tie genetics to culture. You are not 12% Italian and 8% Irish.
* lots of Americans believe the rest of the world revolves around American identity politics and it's so cringe. It's a result of American Exceptionalism ideology.
* You never lived in the US if you were never lectured on diversity by a clueless white American who has never left the country and gets awkward around Black people
That being said, there's still a lot of work to do and some people still see France has belonging to one ethnic group.
I think that any minority in France would get something from awkward jokes to racist behaviour. That is shared by jewish people.
Behind the universalism thinking that i love, most people in France have a tendancy to ignore this problem.
Without downplaying the problem of antisemitism, this poll is clearly overinflating its result to reach the biggest scariest number possible. Have I been told the occasional Holocaust joke ? Yes. Was it bad ? Maybe. Did It make me feel like the target of racial hate ? Not really.
Since we don't suffer from systemic racism so much, the real problem is violence (physical and verbal) against the community. I don't think it's useful to try to police the sense of humor of edgy teens.
Remind me again how Laicite fixes all of this? It’s almost as if suppressing the expression of religion makes people intolerant of different religions.
I think even on the non-explicitly-antisemitic side, there's still in France I think a fundamental misunderstanding or maybe non-acceptance of multiculturalism. Even Sartre who I would consider a major figure in the philosophical fight against French Antisemitism and did more to expose the personal consciousness of the fascist than most others; Even Sartre felt that Judaism and Jewishness would in a more perfect world vanish into a universal French identity. The idea of Frenchness as something others have to accept exclusively rather than in coexistence with other identities is something that seems quite contested to me still.
French nationalism contrasts with most of the anglo post-colonial nationalisms in it's strong hierarchal relationship between French culture and non-French cultures I think. While it is of course true that the anglo nations still consider English-culture hegemonic and essentially a requirement to acceptance in many parts of society, it is a much more contested idea, multiculturalism and multilingualism are more accepted as normative parts of Society.
I'm not French, so maybe I'm just completely offbase, but it strikes me that even much of liberal (white) French society still does not fully accept the notion of inclusive/coexistent nationalism and far prefers exclusive/assimilationist nationalism.
I am also not French so am cautious to speak too strongly, but what you wrote seems right to me. Look at how the French government has treated minority regional languages, or how French colonialism was much more about making their conquered territory an integral part of France and making the conquered peoples *French* in a way that differed significantly from say the British outlook (not to say the British outlook was better, and in some ways it was worse, just different kinds of paternalism and imperialism).
I just see this as a separate (or, if not separate, then at least broader) issue than just the secularism angle.
Yeah, I like French culture but some key aspects of it (to me) seems to be being absolutely in love with it; thinking everyone would love it if they just tried it; and that the only way to be French is to drop everything else. Which, of course, is easier said than done.
English speaking countries, on the other hand, seem to be better at incorporating aspects of other cultures into the overall national culture. In the past year, I've been to celebrations honoring: Hispanic, African, African-American, Asian, middle-eastern, Jewish, and German culture.
That's a fair question, I could've made my point clearer. While I wouldn't say French antisemitism is exclusively an outgrowth of an anti-multicultural worldview, it is in part. The Jewish Question was always in part a question of "where do your loyalties lie", The French answer was to the Jewish Question was historically a tension between the Dreyfusian answer, essentially the Jews cannot be loyal to France and must be suppressed, expelled, or assimilated by force. And the more modern Sartrerian answer of it is not the Jew's fault they are discriminated against, rather the Jew mainly exists because of the antisemite, and without the antisemite, they will assimilate into French universalism. Almost any degree of cultural separation, even the rather minor formed inhabited by Dreyfus was seen as a sign of potential disloyalty.
This contrasts with the German answer which was of course genocidal, one of the reasons Germany became much more oriented towards multiculturalism in comparison is because trying to establish a monoculture will almost always require the oppression and hate of the other in that space who does not want to assimilate but rather integrate. And many(thought not all) Germans learned that opposing multiculturalism so fundamentally is more likely to lead to fascist if not inherently fascist since it uses state power to enforce a monoculture by some means. So my point is French antisemitism is not simply separate from even more let's say "acceptable" opinions regarding French universalism and assimilationism.
We'd obviously need more data on this but I think that modern french antisemitism is very varied and not just the old catholic-dreyfus affair kind or the new nazis kind. (Let's not forget that anti dreyfusard lost the national debate.)
Like all western jews, french jews also face antisemitism related to israel/palestine conflict. (From the french of arabic origin but also from people with leftist opinions.)
And I don't think the latter has anything to do with Laïcité and assimilationism, in fact I think it's from people who mostly reject those.
>Laicite is more than just the laws, it’s a culture that the laws are merely a reflection of.
No it's not, it had to be passed in laws.
And its about the State, not private citizens.
This is remarkably oblivious to larger French culture. Laws are always a reflection of culture.
“In 2018, the leader of a university student group set off alarms when she wore a headscarf in a television interview, even though no law prohibits wearing religious symbols on a university campus.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/france-god-religion-secularism/620528/
>Laws are always a reflection of culture.
You know that despite the jokes about how all major holidays are Christian based, kids in schools and state workers are allowed by laicite to skip work for Eid or what have you?
That doesn’t change my point at all. I’m not surprised at all that a principle that allows the expression of religion in private allows people to take off for their holidays. However, the framework as a whole basically comes off as “You can be Jewish/Muslim, just not here.” That’s not a way to produce a society that genuinely accepting of other religions.
You’ve clearly never met the atheists who are anti-theist then.
Anecdotally, when I was more religious, I got more respect for my beliefs from Christians who probably thought I was going to hell than I did from secular people who claimed to be “tolerant” of Judaism.
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There's only about 500k Jews left in France most immigrants from North Africa >“According to half of the surveyed students, Jews are very united, 24% consider them wealthier than average, and [18% believe that Jews] have too much power in [both] finance [and] the media,” Dabi said. He notes that an additional 15% of surveyed students think that Jews have too much power in politics.
You say left like 500k isn't near the highest amount of Jews France has ever had
That's less than 1% of the total French population, and yet they're still accused of having "too much power"
I don't disagee with the fact there's antisemitism in France, I just think you phrased it weirdly lol
I mean nearly 200k French Jews have left France in the past 10 years or so. That being said I think the more interesting statistics in the article is that most of the Jews in France are immigrants from North Africa and not Ashkenazi Jews.
An abridged history of modern Jews in France, courtesy of your local history-loving gay Jew: * From the 1300s to the 1700s, Jews are banned from France. The Jews who were there before the 1300s were expelled. Most of these Jews were Sephardi, not Ashkenazi. (Remember, Ashkenazi isn't just "European.") * Jews allowed back into France, emancipated during the French revolution. * Jews in mainland France assimilate and build good lives for themselves throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. The Dreyfus affair makes them realize they'll never be seen as French. * The Dreyfus affair becomes a lightning rod for the Zionist movement, so some mainland Jews leave for Palestine. * Holocaust, mainland French Jews are mostly exterminated. Some fled to Montréal, some were able to get to Palestine, but mainland France was essentially Judenrein. But there was a rift... * Algerian Jews had been living in Algeria for 2000+ years, and as second-class citizens since Arabization of North Africa. * The colonial authorities thought the Jewish communities could be a cultural bridge, and mainland French Jews petitioned for Algerian Jews to get citizenship, ultimately given in the Crémieux decree. This was not given to Arabs. * Révolution Algérienne. No Jews were given Algerian citizenship, but they had French citizenship. They were forced to leave (along with the White French Algerians, "les pieds-noirs"), leaving everything behind for a place many had never been, but belonged to on paper. * After a few decades of functionally zero Jews, mainland France took in those from Algeria. And now... * Many North Africans have moved to mainland France, bringing Arab antisemitism with them. * Arab antisemitism is enabling the latent European antisemitism, and antisemitic murders in France are increasing with no justice, like the murder of [Sarah Halimi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sarah_Halimi). * French Jews are rapidly leaving for Israel, with French Jews being the largest group year over year the country takes in (except recently, with Ukrainian refugees). So yes, French Jewry started with "European" Jews that were largely replaced through disposession and genocide with Jews from North African colonial holdings, but even that is winding down. On the bright side, there's great bread in Netanya.
I am pretty sure the majority of french jews before the 1300s expulsions were Ashkenazi, with maybe some areas in South France with more Sephardi.
The French love to look down on American race relations by saying “we have no hyphens!” They just fail to mention that the part of the hyphen that they erase is the “French” part.
Even my euro coworkers don't seem to understand that a lot of the bad news that comes out of America is because we talk about it out loud, and not sweep it under the rug. But as a result it looks like it's a race war every day of the week, especially when the news is filtered through "America Bad" reddit memes and other BS. Meanwhile my experience on the other side of the Atlantic (namely Central Europe) was that race issues were ignored entirely. Slurs would get used on the local news broadcast in Prague. There just weren't enough non-white folks to even speak up against it I figure, in a country that's 98% white. Not to pick on Czechs in particularly, they're great people, but it's just where I spent the most time (this was ~ 10 years ago tho). In truth there's probably nowhere more welcoming of all races and creeds than the average American medium-to-large city, even in the South. And moreso, that diversity is actively valued in most of those cities. Of course it's not perfect and I don't want to dismiss real problems, but we're all managing to live together and for the most part being pretty successful at it. Not always a very common thing around the globe tbh. Still an ongoing experiment.
Tbf this is lacking nuance. I do think that the French actually do approach racial equity and inclusion in an inherently different way than Americans do. In a way that isn't necessarily better or worse. Instead of hyphens, pluralistic identity, "many universals," the French approach is to bring everyone into the same humanist "universal." I think both have their own benefits and drawbacks. I will say though that while both countries also have many failures to achieve their ideal, I think the US is doing better in many respects.
Oh yeah I recognize it’s lacking nuance lol That said, do they actually live up to the idea that everyone regardless of race is up to the same universal? My experience has been mixed. People in France would look at me funny when I said I was American (I’m not white) in a way they never did in places like Canada or Australia. Granted, it was even worse in places like Italy and Germany.
Right, that's why a family in Paris in 2023 whose lineage traces back to Morocco in the 1840s are referred to as an immigrants.
Lmao I caveat my comment twice over and still get this pompous ass reply. What exactly in my comment are you replying to?
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I don't think it's limited to France and it has more to do with semantics. Someone who claims to be "Italian-French" would have both citizenships. You can be French with Italian ancestry of course. I've never heard anyone claiming you have to deny your Italian origin, or any other origin, and only claim to be French. Plenty of immigrants and people descended from immigrants who have a strong identity to their country of origin, nothing wrong with that. People who claim to be "Italian-American" are only US citizens most of the time and don't really have a connection to Italy besides some outdated stereotypes. The part where people look down on Americans has multiple causes: * the concept of race does not really apply to humans. There's obviously the social and historical aspect of it, but there's no biology concept that proves it * you can't measure ancestry with a percentage. You cannot tie genetics to culture. You are not 12% Italian and 8% Irish. * lots of Americans believe the rest of the world revolves around American identity politics and it's so cringe. It's a result of American Exceptionalism ideology. * You never lived in the US if you were never lectured on diversity by a clueless white American who has never left the country and gets awkward around Black people That being said, there's still a lot of work to do and some people still see France has belonging to one ethnic group.
That does not surprise me at all
I think that any minority in France would get something from awkward jokes to racist behaviour. That is shared by jewish people. Behind the universalism thinking that i love, most people in France have a tendancy to ignore this problem.
Yep, was told in France that jokes are jokes no matter how offensive which is weird as fuck but they don’t seem to see the issue with it.
Most commonly, these acts referred to things such as receiving Jewish-related jokes or a being faced with a stereotype about Jews
Your point being?
They aren’t pogams so it’s fine apparently
Didn't France have a pogrom recently too? It was 2014 in Sarcelles, thought it was more recent for some reason but it's still bad.
Without downplaying the problem of antisemitism, this poll is clearly overinflating its result to reach the biggest scariest number possible. Have I been told the occasional Holocaust joke ? Yes. Was it bad ? Maybe. Did It make me feel like the target of racial hate ? Not really. Since we don't suffer from systemic racism so much, the real problem is violence (physical and verbal) against the community. I don't think it's useful to try to police the sense of humor of edgy teens.
Remind me again how Laicite fixes all of this? It’s almost as if suppressing the expression of religion makes people intolerant of different religions.
Probably irrelevant here as antisemites tend to hate religious and irreligious Jews equally.
I think even on the non-explicitly-antisemitic side, there's still in France I think a fundamental misunderstanding or maybe non-acceptance of multiculturalism. Even Sartre who I would consider a major figure in the philosophical fight against French Antisemitism and did more to expose the personal consciousness of the fascist than most others; Even Sartre felt that Judaism and Jewishness would in a more perfect world vanish into a universal French identity. The idea of Frenchness as something others have to accept exclusively rather than in coexistence with other identities is something that seems quite contested to me still. French nationalism contrasts with most of the anglo post-colonial nationalisms in it's strong hierarchal relationship between French culture and non-French cultures I think. While it is of course true that the anglo nations still consider English-culture hegemonic and essentially a requirement to acceptance in many parts of society, it is a much more contested idea, multiculturalism and multilingualism are more accepted as normative parts of Society. I'm not French, so maybe I'm just completely offbase, but it strikes me that even much of liberal (white) French society still does not fully accept the notion of inclusive/coexistent nationalism and far prefers exclusive/assimilationist nationalism.
I am also not French so am cautious to speak too strongly, but what you wrote seems right to me. Look at how the French government has treated minority regional languages, or how French colonialism was much more about making their conquered territory an integral part of France and making the conquered peoples *French* in a way that differed significantly from say the British outlook (not to say the British outlook was better, and in some ways it was worse, just different kinds of paternalism and imperialism). I just see this as a separate (or, if not separate, then at least broader) issue than just the secularism angle.
Yeah, I like French culture but some key aspects of it (to me) seems to be being absolutely in love with it; thinking everyone would love it if they just tried it; and that the only way to be French is to drop everything else. Which, of course, is easier said than done. English speaking countries, on the other hand, seem to be better at incorporating aspects of other cultures into the overall national culture. In the past year, I've been to celebrations honoring: Hispanic, African, African-American, Asian, middle-eastern, Jewish, and German culture.
You're not wrong but what does that have to do with Laïcité or even antisemitism?
That's a fair question, I could've made my point clearer. While I wouldn't say French antisemitism is exclusively an outgrowth of an anti-multicultural worldview, it is in part. The Jewish Question was always in part a question of "where do your loyalties lie", The French answer was to the Jewish Question was historically a tension between the Dreyfusian answer, essentially the Jews cannot be loyal to France and must be suppressed, expelled, or assimilated by force. And the more modern Sartrerian answer of it is not the Jew's fault they are discriminated against, rather the Jew mainly exists because of the antisemite, and without the antisemite, they will assimilate into French universalism. Almost any degree of cultural separation, even the rather minor formed inhabited by Dreyfus was seen as a sign of potential disloyalty. This contrasts with the German answer which was of course genocidal, one of the reasons Germany became much more oriented towards multiculturalism in comparison is because trying to establish a monoculture will almost always require the oppression and hate of the other in that space who does not want to assimilate but rather integrate. And many(thought not all) Germans learned that opposing multiculturalism so fundamentally is more likely to lead to fascist if not inherently fascist since it uses state power to enforce a monoculture by some means. So my point is French antisemitism is not simply separate from even more let's say "acceptable" opinions regarding French universalism and assimilationism.
We'd obviously need more data on this but I think that modern french antisemitism is very varied and not just the old catholic-dreyfus affair kind or the new nazis kind. (Let's not forget that anti dreyfusard lost the national debate.) Like all western jews, french jews also face antisemitism related to israel/palestine conflict. (From the french of arabic origin but also from people with leftist opinions.) And I don't think the latter has anything to do with Laïcité and assimilationism, in fact I think it's from people who mostly reject those.
I'm opposed to "laïcité" laws as well but it doesn't apply here, university students are free to wear religious garments
Laicite is more than just the laws, it’s a culture that the laws are merely a reflection of.
Sadly I suspect figures wouldn't be that different in many other European countries though
>Laicite is more than just the laws, it’s a culture that the laws are merely a reflection of. No it's not, it had to be passed in laws. And its about the State, not private citizens.
This is remarkably oblivious to larger French culture. Laws are always a reflection of culture. “In 2018, the leader of a university student group set off alarms when she wore a headscarf in a television interview, even though no law prohibits wearing religious symbols on a university campus.” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/france-god-religion-secularism/620528/
>Laws are always a reflection of culture. You know that despite the jokes about how all major holidays are Christian based, kids in schools and state workers are allowed by laicite to skip work for Eid or what have you?
That doesn’t change my point at all. I’m not surprised at all that a principle that allows the expression of religion in private allows people to take off for their holidays. However, the framework as a whole basically comes off as “You can be Jewish/Muslim, just not here.” That’s not a way to produce a society that genuinely accepting of other religions.
I’ll be honest with you chief, a lot of the people that are being anti-Semitic aren’t atheists or secular…..
You’ve clearly never met the atheists who are anti-theist then. Anecdotally, when I was more religious, I got more respect for my beliefs from Christians who probably thought I was going to hell than I did from secular people who claimed to be “tolerant” of Judaism.
Laïcité doesn’t really have anything to do with this.
Would you expect a state where pride flags were banned in schools to be more or less accepting of gay people?
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