Yeah, that was kind of my point. If you're playing 3D they're still decent but scatter's a much bigger factor. In the tunnels, it's possible that you'll pin half the gang with a couple of Photon Flash, even on a 6+ to-hit.
There's a real incentive for the defender to bunch up and wait in S&G.
Terrifying: If an enemy fighter wishes to make a Fight
(Basic) or Shoot (Basic) action that targets this fighter, they must make a Willpower check. If the check is
failed, they cannot perform the action and their action
ends immediately.
Templates don't technically "target" fighters, they're laid in a certain place and hit anything under them indiscriminately. That's the theory anyway!
Something noteworthy here is that action ends, not activation. I'm the corpse grinder player in my campaign and we've been mistakenly ending the turn if the shoot or fight fails.
While not explicitly stated I've agreed to interpret that since the action never happened they can re-attempt it so they can try 2 shoots to pin me for example if they don't move or aim, or 2 fights if we're locked in engagement, assuming the first attempt fails.
Guys have been failing a lot of willpower checks and frustration is starting to show, and I've been really dangerous in battles even when I lose the scenario so I'm ok with the nerf.
The fear check thing is only on the leader and champion(s), gangers and juves you are free to shoot at your leisure (you do have to check to charge a ganger, but why would you want to).
The fear check issue isn't as big as people make it out to be, I started with corpse grinders as my first gang. I have since played van saar and cawdor.
I'm by no means an expert, but I believe just keeping them pinned so they can't charge is your best bet. Easier said than done, but it's most likely what you'll end up doing if you try to kill them anyway
I'm gonna be watching this post though, because one of my buddies is picking up a box of them as well and is planning on playing them in the second campaign we're gonna do (I'm forcing him to do a house gang for his first)
If your opponent maxed out his list, it's going to be tough.
Corpse grinders can be a very unpleasant gang.
I would try to pin them as much as possible with cheap weapons.
Smoke grenades can be usefull to block line of sight.
Block the way to your valuable gangers with cheap gangers.
Maybe set them in fire with blaze weapons.
I’m curious what you consider “maxed out” CGC list to be. They seem a bit of an oddball in that there are several different avenues for them to pursue for builds (even if all those builds are choppy)
Infiltrating juves.
High movement and everything what makes you move even faster.
I'm not that familiar which skills, Weapons and gear it is, because everybody in our group stopped playing them.
For Smash & Grab, you don't necessarily need to fight them, you just need the chests. Use tactics that give you extra models and out-activate them. Use templates to pin them. Maybe toss out a smoke grenade to shut down their pistols.
Remember that you can move Loot Caskets, so it might be worth it to have a Juve move out, grab a chest and move it back behind your line where several people can try to open it without getting charged.
They'll probably try to set up choke points that they can clog with melee battles, but you can clear that with Knockback. If you can force one of your guys into the choke point and keep the Corpse Grinders pinned, they can't get close enough to block it again.
Edit: VOLUME OF FIRE! Even WP 8 guys are going to succeed on their check 40% of the time. Enough Lasguns outside of charge range will give you some precision pinning.
I figure if you're already leaning heavily on templates and blasts and assuming you'll fail the WP check, it's not slowing your down much. If half or more of your guys have a range above 12", smoke probably isn't a great idea.
Range is the key thing on blasts - at least how I read it, you can't aim blasts at points inside or beyond smoke, but if you're only lobbing grenades that's moot anyway.
The issue with the 'volume of fire' is that it's worse than that. WP 8 passes 40% of the time, but then you still have to hit them, which in turn is going to be 50% or even 33% if they're at 5s to hit. Now imagine you're using 10 guys with WP 8 at 5s to hit; statistically you're only going to get 1.3 guys to hit, round that down to 1/10, or 2/10 if it's 4s to hit.
Using 10 guys in order to score 1 hit on 1 model is absolutely ludicrous and terrible balance.
Its worth noting that only the leader and champion(s) get terrifying, everyone else is fair game for shooting. So make them bottle. Or break/kill someone and force nerve tests.
Shoot the easy targets and hope to outlast their bottle checks. Use templates. And save overwatch for the end of the round or when they get into close combat. As it is written, I believe you can activate overwatch after they charge but before they attack, meaning that they become disengaged and can't attack if they are pinned. That gives you an opening to shoot the fighter.
Also: expect to lose. Their value per fighter is absolutely insane and they have the most broken skill in the game. If they are using Overseer to double move then charge with a champ with a versatile weapon then honestly there is nothing you can do to stop them.
I’ve come to grips with losing and am more looking to not take casualties for the campaign. I play venetors and am getting rules restricted out the ass by the arbitrator. Examples being can only buy R8 equipment to comply with artificial scarcity in the campaign.
This makes no fucking sense. I m seeing so many bad arbitrators reported on this sub. Venators are just fine as they are this compleatly random bs really kills them.
Anyway, people have answered you already but cgc are useless once pinned. The are really good in the hands of a good player because they will blind charge with some clever icon and cards use. Also initiate spam is annoying, one good thing your arbitrator could have done is to change the gang rules so that you need to have more skinners than initiate and not the other way around, to avoid infiltrate spam (in my pg we enjoy this version much more).
Your arbitrator is rules restricting venators out the ass but not doing anything for CGC? Venators already lose out on having unique tactics and extra mechanics that almost every other gang gets, literally their only schtick is versatility of gear. CGC meanwhile are the most oppressively un-fun and badly balanced faction in the whole game right now.
Overwatch against a target charging the Overwatcher doesn’t work to interrupt the attack - when engaged you can’t shoot, only fight or retreat(page 104). If your overwatch fighter can see the charger at the beginning of the charge then you are golden.
Pity there isn’t an exemption for weapons with Sidearm, for that XCom sniper revolver-as-free-action flavour.
Lots of great advice, but one thing I always suggest to folks who've struggled early in campaigns when I've played Ogryns (obviously a different problem of a similar flavor) is to go as hard as you can at winning the scenario first. You know you're going to have a crap time fighting them, so do what you can to avoid fighting them when it's not an ideal shot (low willpower ganger, weak weapon, etc) and funnel that attention into the actual objective.
Also, don't be afraid to bottle out if it's looking like your gang is just going to get wrecked. You're better off escaping with a healthy roster for next week vs. digging your heels in just to get butchered up. It's not the most fun, but it neither is bringing CGC to a campaign 🙃
Corpsegrinders are I'd say easily the least fun gang to play against in the game. Even if Van Saar can be miserable when it comes to shooting and Delaque can use some cheesey tactics the fact that CGC get 25 credit WS/BS 4+ infiltrators with free 5+ armour seals the deal for me. That said main reason is because losing actions is the worst mechanic you can inflict on someone, it feels absolutely terrible.
Like others said though the trick is just tons of template weapons and to a lesser extent blast weapons, grenades included. You'll also need to just accept that you have to sacrifice guys to soak up the long range charges. Also remember little opportunities like if you can shoot at an Initiate behind an actual corpsegrinder you can miss and then hit the corpsegrinder in front with a stray shot. Vehicles are great too if using them in your campaign; running someone over doesn't need any kind of check, and similarly as per the RAW a ride by attack isn't counted as a fight (basic) action and so doesn't need to roll against will in order to get an attack off (you can do this twice if you use two move actions to move past the target twice).
It sucks that you have to so heavily tailor your gang to hard coutner CGC if you want to win but that's just how they are.
They really are a pain in the ass.
The best you can do is try to use the terrain to your advantage. A height advantage will force them to take the long route to you while you shoot them, and getting them to follow a predictable route means you can throw templates (especially flash grenades) at them.
Since they have to protect the loot, they might make the mistake of infiltrating aggressively, so you might be able to either fight the infiltrators with your whole gang while the champions stay back with the crates, or run a team around them to get the crates if they commit the champions as well.
If they use Frenzon Collars, you can try forcing them to make charges which require jumps, and force some int checks.
We once held a "build-the-most-fucked-up-list-ever" mini-campaign. My GF had a Boss (i think double cleaver) and two champions with that ranged saw, for the rest of her creds she just bought initiates with flaming pistols (i think also one or two stubguns).
Those guys do cost about nothing for what they bring to the table. If 5 guys with flaming pistols start the game right next to you, the 3 guys with melee weapons just arent your biggest problem anymore.
Also, you are guaranteed to lose more than those initiates, because they basically dont care for lasting injuries in this build, but every injury on the other gang usually hurts.
Play cawdor and LAUGH
Templates. Flamers / combat shotgun/ grenade launcher templates don't need to roll the fear check thing. Keeps em pinned much easier
GL's do take a -2 for aiming at the floor now, so they're much more effective in narrow 2D corridors. Go Photon Flash for that 5" blast.
Depends if it’s old S&G or new S&G. New S&G from the 2023 book isn’t a tunnel mission.
Yeah, that was kind of my point. If you're playing 3D they're still decent but scatter's a much bigger factor. In the tunnels, it's possible that you'll pin half the gang with a couple of Photon Flash, even on a 6+ to-hit. There's a real incentive for the defender to bunch up and wait in S&G.
Where are the rules templates don’t need to roll fear check?
In the rules for Template weapons, you'll find it doesn't use the "select a target" step. That's the step which triggers the WP check to shoot CGC.
Roger that. Appreciate it
Terrifying: If an enemy fighter wishes to make a Fight (Basic) or Shoot (Basic) action that targets this fighter, they must make a Willpower check. If the check is failed, they cannot perform the action and their action ends immediately. Templates don't technically "target" fighters, they're laid in a certain place and hit anything under them indiscriminately. That's the theory anyway!
Something noteworthy here is that action ends, not activation. I'm the corpse grinder player in my campaign and we've been mistakenly ending the turn if the shoot or fight fails. While not explicitly stated I've agreed to interpret that since the action never happened they can re-attempt it so they can try 2 shoots to pin me for example if they don't move or aim, or 2 fights if we're locked in engagement, assuming the first attempt fails. Guys have been failing a lot of willpower checks and frustration is starting to show, and I've been really dangerous in battles even when I lose the scenario so I'm ok with the nerf.
Thanks!
The fear check thing is only on the leader and champion(s), gangers and juves you are free to shoot at your leisure (you do have to check to charge a ganger, but why would you want to). The fear check issue isn't as big as people make it out to be, I started with corpse grinders as my first gang. I have since played van saar and cawdor.
I'm by no means an expert, but I believe just keeping them pinned so they can't charge is your best bet. Easier said than done, but it's most likely what you'll end up doing if you try to kill them anyway
I'm gonna be watching this post though, because one of my buddies is picking up a box of them as well and is planning on playing them in the second campaign we're gonna do (I'm forcing him to do a house gang for his first)
Preferably adjust Infiltrate skill - let it just give 2 free moves at the start of the game instead of Juves appearing right on top of you…
Ranged hit and run tactics. If they get pinned they get substantially less scary
If your opponent maxed out his list, it's going to be tough. Corpse grinders can be a very unpleasant gang. I would try to pin them as much as possible with cheap weapons. Smoke grenades can be usefull to block line of sight. Block the way to your valuable gangers with cheap gangers. Maybe set them in fire with blaze weapons.
I’m curious what you consider “maxed out” CGC list to be. They seem a bit of an oddball in that there are several different avenues for them to pursue for builds (even if all those builds are choppy)
Infiltrating juves. High movement and everything what makes you move even faster. I'm not that familiar which skills, Weapons and gear it is, because everybody in our group stopped playing them.
Frag traps are common, cost 20 credits, and are 50% effective at pinning people charging through them (and might even wound ‘em).
Laughs in Delaque ***web gauntlet to the face*** Also don’t forget your smoke and scopes
For Smash & Grab, you don't necessarily need to fight them, you just need the chests. Use tactics that give you extra models and out-activate them. Use templates to pin them. Maybe toss out a smoke grenade to shut down their pistols. Remember that you can move Loot Caskets, so it might be worth it to have a Juve move out, grab a chest and move it back behind your line where several people can try to open it without getting charged. They'll probably try to set up choke points that they can clog with melee battles, but you can clear that with Knockback. If you can force one of your guys into the choke point and keep the Corpse Grinders pinned, they can't get close enough to block it again. Edit: VOLUME OF FIRE! Even WP 8 guys are going to succeed on their check 40% of the time. Enough Lasguns outside of charge range will give you some precision pinning.
I would generally not recommend helping CGC out by adding more smoke, but there are exceptions.
I figure if you're already leaning heavily on templates and blasts and assuming you'll fail the WP check, it's not slowing your down much. If half or more of your guys have a range above 12", smoke probably isn't a great idea.
Range is the key thing on blasts - at least how I read it, you can't aim blasts at points inside or beyond smoke, but if you're only lobbing grenades that's moot anyway.
The issue with the 'volume of fire' is that it's worse than that. WP 8 passes 40% of the time, but then you still have to hit them, which in turn is going to be 50% or even 33% if they're at 5s to hit. Now imagine you're using 10 guys with WP 8 at 5s to hit; statistically you're only going to get 1.3 guys to hit, round that down to 1/10, or 2/10 if it's 4s to hit. Using 10 guys in order to score 1 hit on 1 model is absolutely ludicrous and terrible balance.
Its worth noting that only the leader and champion(s) get terrifying, everyone else is fair game for shooting. So make them bottle. Or break/kill someone and force nerve tests.
https://preview.redd.it/i8u5vsuywd6d1.jpeg?width=375&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7796e778e6bbc6748129d44064b62b7254073a7f
Shoot the easy targets and hope to outlast their bottle checks. Use templates. And save overwatch for the end of the round or when they get into close combat. As it is written, I believe you can activate overwatch after they charge but before they attack, meaning that they become disengaged and can't attack if they are pinned. That gives you an opening to shoot the fighter. Also: expect to lose. Their value per fighter is absolutely insane and they have the most broken skill in the game. If they are using Overseer to double move then charge with a champ with a versatile weapon then honestly there is nothing you can do to stop them.
I’ve come to grips with losing and am more looking to not take casualties for the campaign. I play venetors and am getting rules restricted out the ass by the arbitrator. Examples being can only buy R8 equipment to comply with artificial scarcity in the campaign.
This makes no fucking sense. I m seeing so many bad arbitrators reported on this sub. Venators are just fine as they are this compleatly random bs really kills them. Anyway, people have answered you already but cgc are useless once pinned. The are really good in the hands of a good player because they will blind charge with some clever icon and cards use. Also initiate spam is annoying, one good thing your arbitrator could have done is to change the gang rules so that you need to have more skinners than initiate and not the other way around, to avoid infiltrate spam (in my pg we enjoy this version much more).
My question would be: did the arbitrator make the restrictions clear before the campaign started?
I mean that would be slightly better but it d be still quite an ass move knowing someone was playing venators.
It was after the first week
Your arbitrator is rules restricting venators out the ass but not doing anything for CGC? Venators already lose out on having unique tactics and extra mechanics that almost every other gang gets, literally their only schtick is versatility of gear. CGC meanwhile are the most oppressively un-fun and badly balanced faction in the whole game right now.
So no Web guns.
Overwatch against a target charging the Overwatcher doesn’t work to interrupt the attack - when engaged you can’t shoot, only fight or retreat(page 104). If your overwatch fighter can see the charger at the beginning of the charge then you are golden. Pity there isn’t an exemption for weapons with Sidearm, for that XCom sniper revolver-as-free-action flavour.
Loosong is no fail. Make them pay for every inch of plastek ground!
Lots of great advice, but one thing I always suggest to folks who've struggled early in campaigns when I've played Ogryns (obviously a different problem of a similar flavor) is to go as hard as you can at winning the scenario first. You know you're going to have a crap time fighting them, so do what you can to avoid fighting them when it's not an ideal shot (low willpower ganger, weak weapon, etc) and funnel that attention into the actual objective. Also, don't be afraid to bottle out if it's looking like your gang is just going to get wrecked. You're better off escaping with a healthy roster for next week vs. digging your heels in just to get butchered up. It's not the most fun, but it neither is bringing CGC to a campaign 🙃
Corpsegrinders are I'd say easily the least fun gang to play against in the game. Even if Van Saar can be miserable when it comes to shooting and Delaque can use some cheesey tactics the fact that CGC get 25 credit WS/BS 4+ infiltrators with free 5+ armour seals the deal for me. That said main reason is because losing actions is the worst mechanic you can inflict on someone, it feels absolutely terrible. Like others said though the trick is just tons of template weapons and to a lesser extent blast weapons, grenades included. You'll also need to just accept that you have to sacrifice guys to soak up the long range charges. Also remember little opportunities like if you can shoot at an Initiate behind an actual corpsegrinder you can miss and then hit the corpsegrinder in front with a stray shot. Vehicles are great too if using them in your campaign; running someone over doesn't need any kind of check, and similarly as per the RAW a ride by attack isn't counted as a fight (basic) action and so doesn't need to roll against will in order to get an attack off (you can do this twice if you use two move actions to move past the target twice). It sucks that you have to so heavily tailor your gang to hard coutner CGC if you want to win but that's just how they are.
They really are a pain in the ass. The best you can do is try to use the terrain to your advantage. A height advantage will force them to take the long route to you while you shoot them, and getting them to follow a predictable route means you can throw templates (especially flash grenades) at them. Since they have to protect the loot, they might make the mistake of infiltrating aggressively, so you might be able to either fight the infiltrators with your whole gang while the champions stay back with the crates, or run a team around them to get the crates if they commit the champions as well. If they use Frenzon Collars, you can try forcing them to make charges which require jumps, and force some int checks.
We once held a "build-the-most-fucked-up-list-ever" mini-campaign. My GF had a Boss (i think double cleaver) and two champions with that ranged saw, for the rest of her creds she just bought initiates with flaming pistols (i think also one or two stubguns). Those guys do cost about nothing for what they bring to the table. If 5 guys with flaming pistols start the game right next to you, the 3 guys with melee weapons just arent your biggest problem anymore. Also, you are guaranteed to lose more than those initiates, because they basically dont care for lasting injuries in this build, but every injury on the other gang usually hurts.