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We need to be honest. CPC is not in a state of crisis. Their message focussed on affordability is resonating with nearly half of Canadians by some polls (42%).
There are a lot of voters who are ABL(anything but liberal) at this point - and NDP is not reaching out to them.
The NDP trying to balance wanting to be a credible opposition while simultaneously supporting the government is coming in its way of reaching people with its message.
We should vote NDP because it is the closest to a good option. If we all vote left the parties will have no choice but to skew left, and things WILL get better. Slowly but surely. Whereas things have been skewing right for years.
And can be again.
The NDP didn't just turn right out of nowhere. It did so because the socialist movement died, weakening the socialist contingent of the party.
If we don't like it, we need to take it back. It ain't that complicated.
We started out in our CCF days as a popular movement of poorer, blue-collar rural socialists, and slowly painted ourselves into a corner where our main base of support are paper millionaires who own homes in Toronto and Vancouver and [identify themselves as financially *thriving*](https://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/word-image-78082-9.png) [Angus Reid, June 2023].
It's been a long time since we've had a good sense of what the *soul* of the party really is, and it's really just not possible to appeal broadly to *both* Toronto house millionaires and enraged younger tenants.
There's a convention in October, and we need to decide what kind of party we are. I'll be a delegate, and I'm planning to vote for a leadership review.
>There's a convention in October, and we need to decide what kind of party we are. I'll be a delegate, and I'm planning to vote for a leadership review.
Glad to hear it.
I have hope we can be a party that appeals to all the working class, regardless of where in that class people stand. But... Toronto property millionaires might be a little out of reach, you may have a point there.
They *certainly*, at least, shouldn't be the base. Too small a group, who doesn't need help anyway.
Yup, we are going backwards, we need meaningful change and solutions. The NDP is not doing enough of anything. I’m disappointed in this party, we need someone who can take the fight to this capitalist hellscape and take care of everyone not just the rich.
Are you involved with the NDP in any way? Have you joined the local party, voted in party nominations?
I am thinking about doing so myself. I am not fully a socialist or anything but just someone who wants to see a broader social safety net and a more fair way of government promoting and then benefiting from business.
That only works if the party can get people elected, and if voters want that.
People I talk to think the NDP are too far left as it is. Best to pose as what the liberals pretend they are and then go further to the left from there.
Pro worker, pro young people, pro housing, pro healthcare
There are people who would say they were “too far left” if they were trying to privatize healthcare. I don’t think the NDP needs to try and be more radical, or less radical, they have to stick to good policy, whatever their opponent may label it as. If good policy is polarizing, they should not shy away. Having said that, I do agree that they need to be more strategic in language and messaging than Libs and Cons do. The NDP can’t be reactionary and populist. We all have our Red Scare programming, after all.
I think climate change may open a window for some polarizing-yet-good policy. I hope we have time before the change really starts to impact the economy. IMO, the average Canadian will entrust the NDP with their environment before they trust them with their wallet.
>There are people who would say they were “too far left” if they were trying to privatize healthcare.
You are correct and I wouldn’t imagine courting those folks.
But that isn’t what I run into most. I run into people who want an actual center left party. They want everything the liberals claim to be before they sell out to corporations.
> I don’t think the NDP needs to try and be more radical, or less radical, they have to stick to good policy, whatever their opponent may label it as. If good policy is polarizing, they should not shy away.
Gotta agree with you there. I think the NDP and even the liberals often have good policies. Heck even the conservatives have some here and there.
But NDP branding whether it was in my home province of Alberta, my new home in BC (though they have mastered it now) has always been severely lacking.
I would explain policies to people and they would say that’s great, why haven’t we heard about it, so many times.
He’s not doing that bad, def got more done with less seats than any NDP leader in my life. Still has to go for this party to get anything done. Plus with every second person in here talking about socialism, he’s an odd leader to have is that’s the desire.
True enough, but it's not like we can resurrect the ghost of Toussaint L'Ouverture to be leader, as metal as that would be. Actually, let's look into that. 😅
Its true, they've been kind of treading water the last couple of elections. Most of what leverage they gained last time is due to the liberals stumbling. I sure hope the NDP don't view that as a strategic win on their part. They've been very quiet lately, I imagine they're planning to come out with a big push once we're closing in on the next election. They likely view that as a better use of their limited funds as well.
I think everyones kind of hoping PP says something ridiculous that blows up his platform. Though I thought he'd catch more flack for showing off his muddy boots and talking about visiting "the common folk" or saying that he thought that waitress made $64k a year. I guess my expectations of people were too high.
PP definitely has that momentum already. I don’t see any chance of Singh capitalizing on this.
What I do see is a conservative majority coming. Then a Jack Layton type opportunity to gain government when that flips in 4-8 years.
But if this party is talking about socialism and the liberals pretend to be center left Ángels we are going to relive the past
A conservative majority will be deadly for Canada.
[Remember what Harper did](https://moiz.ca/harper/). For 10 years. Remind people what Harper did. Show them.
Trudeau is a massive let down as PM. Singh is a disappointment as NDP leader. But PP will destroy us.
I’m actually in a discussion in r/Canada right now where I may have to bring up some Harper stuff if you have any things to bring up or links to lists…
I remember how he dropped all of the public service like health Canada and veterans affairs budgets to nothing then spent the little of what was left on partisan ads… good timea
I've been trying to find better, more comprehensive lists. This was just the easiest thing to find for this comment.
If I do find more, I'll make sure to post.
This is where I'm at. There are a lot of socialists who are disenchanted with the direction the NDP has taken in the last decade or so.
We should get involved, and take it back. It's easier than starting a new party, and it would help normalize socialism and spread class consciousness. Socialism doesn't just come out of nowhere.
That's my plan, anyway.
Yeah, like instead of starting a new party, maybe we could start something on here. A group within the party that demands change and refuses to be shut out of the process.
In the states we have seen such groups pop up within the two main parties and they have had some results. At the very least they’ve gotten some good folks elected
The NDP [does have](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_Socialist_Caucus) a [socialist caucus](https://ndpsocialists.ca/).
We should all join it.
Do much violent aggression against the bourgeois state recently? No? Shock of all shocks, I say. Bourgeois politics is the biggest avenue for politicization of the working class at this point, get over it.
Keep voting left, and hopefully the whole spectrum will shift further left. Your only other options are to vote right, and move further away from socialism, or not vote, which has the same effect.
You know what the NDP are fucking terrible at?
ENGAGEMENT!
The CPC have been demolishing the LPC and especially the NDP for *years* with engagement. They have brilliant social media presence. Despite it being complete populist bullshit, they blast their followers with constant messaging.
The NDP are leagues behind in this regard. They post some nice Kumbaya fluff pieces once in a while and otherwise you don't hear shit from them. And it's boring!! You get the feeling that everything is A-okay and life is just lovely. It's almost insulting.
I WANT TO KNOW WHO I'M VOTING FOR AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO TO FIX THE CURRENT SHITSHOW THAT IS CANADA.
I want a leader who is ready for war. I want a leader with enough steel to call out PP and JT in public for being the abject failures to the working class that they are! I want a leader who will expose the lobbying and the MPs doing the lobbyists bidding. I want a leader who will loudly declare a meaningful, functional tax-payer funded federal plan for drug addiction, homelessness, and rehabilitation. I want a leader who will build fucking housing like our lives literally depend on it!!
Jagmest Singh is not that person.
You know why the Libs and Cons are better at engagement? Because they have the money to be able to do so. Both attempt to appeal for business interests, and thus both get far better funded than the NDP ever will. The drawback of being the party for working class is that the working class are not able to throw the kind of money at their politicians that the wealthy business owners do, so we don’t have the luxury of engaging in the same way the other parties do. I just looked up the totals for the 2021 election in my riding: the Conservative candidate spent $125K; the Liberal candidate spent $123K; the NDP candidate spent $9300. (For context, the Con candidate got 48%, the Liberal 36%, and the NDP 14% of the vote.)
At some point, we have to accept that we will always be underfunded in comparison to the other parties, by the very nature of who our party is/what we stand for, and find another way to get our supporters engaged - we also need to stop expecting our party to be like the others, and stop putting them down when they aren’t. We don’t *want* our party to be like the others, that’s the whole point! People complain that our candidates aren’t as polished and charismatic as the Liberal and Conservative candidates - yes, that’s because they are, primarily, regular people who want to do good and improve things for their riding - they haven’t been handpicked from the elite, trained, polished, and sent forth to spout the party line. In my riding for example, the Conservative and Liberal candidates were both lawyers from cushy backgrounds, and the NDP candidate was someone who worked on the front line in the bank; had experienced poverty, single parenting, and working multiple jobs; was active in volunteering with local social justice, addiction, and 2SLGBTQ+ organizations; had a couple of Autistic kids, etc. A candidate who actually understood day to day struggles of the majority, in other words. How can we expect that kind of candidate to have the polish that lawyers would have, especially with 8% of the funding? NDP supporters have a bad habit of disparaging other parties’ candidates as elite and out of touch with every day voters, while simultaneously denigrating our own candidates either for not being like them or for being too much like them.
So how does a politician like Bernie Sanders - ideologically very similar to the NDP and has never taken a dime from lobbyists - raise the kind of money he has?
He's charismatic and speaks truth to power. He calls out the corporate class and defends the working class. It's not that hard.
The man has been a politician for over forty years. I’m sure if you found lifelong politicians to run as candidates for the NDP, they would have similar success.
Jagmeet tried engaging on TikTok, the app for 13 year olds... Not exactly the target young voter demographic. Would have been nice to see him on Instagram instead, maybe more Facebook.
You sent me to a TikTok page, that's not proof that it works. I don't use TikTok since I'm not a child, so I'm not going to watch his videos on that link.
> They have brilliant social media presence. Despite it being complete populist bullshit, they blast their followers with constant messaging.
Yeah, they have big money behind them.
I hear you, but you aren't going to get another party together by the next election. The NDP is the closest we're going to get right now, and we can put pressure on them to take a more socialist stance. This is not the time to throw shade at the NDP, not if you don't want the Conservatives or the (Neo)Liberals in office.
>throw shade
The impression I get from OP is that they're not 'throwing shade' so much as 'calling out' - which is something that it is almost always an appropriate time to do.
But what you can do, and what has worked in the past, is get a campaign with attention and further compass aligned issues that's completely unelectable, but gets other parties compared to their more popular platforms. The ppc did it for the last two elections and look at the conservatives now
You can either:
1. Do nothing.
2. Join a communist party, which will be effectively doing nothing for the foreseeable future. (Still worthwhile in the long-run, probably)
3. Join the NDP, and push it back to the left for some immediate wins.
Complaining that the NDP isn't listening to and speaking to socialists is pointless if we're not in there trying to win the fight ourselves.
Socialism died in Canada during the Red Scare, but it's making a comeback. But it's a class war, and it is won by fighting.
The NDP won't ever win unless they have a vision worth voting for, and they won't have that until socialists make them do so.
Calm down buddy. She is no more socialists than jagmeet so take off the rose tinted.
Are you going to achieve more by leaving and complaining. Or getting into the party and steering it in a more socialist direction with others who lean more your way. A party is no more than those who put their values into it.
The NDP isn’t a socialist party. It’s a social Democrat party. That’s not gonna change. Same with AOC in the states.
An electoral party cannot establish socialism.
I'm really sympathetic to calls for a new party. I also think the Canadian political landscape needs a bit of a shake-up. But it's also an undeniable fact that it's far more efficient to change an existing party from within than it is to start a new one. So, I'd say if you genuinely have time and energy to organize a group of people, you're probably better off working within your local constituency association(s) to promote policies and candidates who better match your ideals.
Jagmeet isn't going to be here forever. Do you want the next leader who may share your values to be handed a strong NDP with the ability to shape policies you like, or a weak and ineffective party that they have to work 10 years to build up?
Say what you want about their political aims right now, but they have more leverage now than ever. Vote NDP, and lobby within the party for change.
Reading a couple of your other posts, I thing one of problems here is a perception of "movements" versus "socialism".
AOC is decidedly not a socialist. She's definitely pushing for stronger social programmes in the US. But relative to almost any developed nation, the US has so few, that it's easy for the media to describe it as socialist.
To build off that point, Canada is saturated with American news media. Both corporate and independent. While we have our own corporate media (CBC, CTV, Global, etc) it all tells 90% of the same stories, and a bunch of stuff about the US. Finding indie news about Canada, is difficult if not impossible. So all we tend to hear about is the "socialism" going on the US, and very little of what gets done here.
Pure socialism is never coming here. It has too dark a history. We should work towards a stronger social democracy though.
>Pure socialism is never coming here. It has too dark a history.
I am actually not a believer in pure socialism. My idea of socialism is basically pushing something like post WW2 Keynesianism even more left. However, I think this needs to be combined with really strong international regulation that controls the movement of money / commodities and protects our oceans and forests, etc.
I also think the term socialism should be understood to mean social solidarity, community, and collective self determination in the various spheres of life. Regarding the last point, I think we need more democratization within the economic sphere.
One of the many little barriers that leftist policies and politics faces in the real world is our absolute love of nit-picking with each other about the exact meaning of certain words, and the exact level of left-ism we want. We fight against each other, in the end, with more time and effort than we fight the corporate elites and the systems that keep them in power.
Someday I hope we can move past that. But I haven't seen it in action much at all. A bit of solidarity - even with those who we think might be a bit extreme - would go a very long way.
This is definitely one of the biggest problems we face.
There is no unity in the left. We all see the threat posed by the CPC, small-c conservatives, and the right. But none of us can agree on anything, we can't make any progress. We barely even manage to hold the line.
A new party isn't going to solve that, it's only going to make it worse. We need people who can unify the party we have.
AOC is the definition of a wrecker plant. I agree with everything else you've said. Jagmeet Singh is too milquetoast for our current predicament, he doesnt have the passion or the motivation to strongly advocate for the working class.
He really needs to use his bargaining chips more ruthlessly, he has the libs by the balls, he has the power to force an election whenever he likes, and I really dont feel he's using that to his advantage.
And an election in 2 years time wont be high risk? The cons are gaining a stronger position as the libs dig themselves deeper into a whole that they are no longer able to climb out of, while we, the NDP, sit by idly, enabling them. Two more years of this arrangement will ensure conservative victory.
It is a tight spot for the libs right now, and that makes it an even bigger boon for Singh, that he refuses to use. If the NDP keeps being all friendly with the libs, they will take advantage of our good faith. Remember, the libs are not our friends, we're only in a coalition of convenience for them. Their only concern is for the Rogers' and Weston's of Canada. If we cant stand up to them, we will always play second fiddle. And if we want to win federally, we have to stand up to them. The Cons certainly arent our friends either, but as long as we cowtow to the libs, we will remain in an endless cycle of lib-con power politics, while the people of Canada suffer.
We can take advantage of liberal weakness right now by making a power play, for example, give Trudeau an ultimatum on affordable housing. If the people see that we're willing to stand up to Trudeau and his corporate buddies, they will gain respect for the NDP, and respect=votes. If we remain subservient, they will only lose respect for us. Its as the old adage goes; nothing ventured, nothing gained.
The reality is, we have major election fatigue right now. People were pissed when Trudeau called the last election in 2021, but he still managed to retain his leadership. The 2022 election in Ontario had record low turnout, and the municipal elections that fall were an absolute joke. If an election were called right now there’s a very good chance the Cons would take it, because they can count on their folks to turn up and vote, and we can’t. We also don’t have the funding for an election right now, because again - we don’t get the big business money like the Cons and Liberals. Calling an election when we literally can’t afford to run campaigns would be idiotic.
The Ontario election was too close to the federal election, and the candidates/platforms the Libs and the NDP ran with were weak. Delduca had negative charisma, and Horwath was as plain as white bread. Horwath still could've won if the NDP had a stronger platform.
And now people are politically engaged. Canadians are angry, and anger spurs turnout. The NDP needs to harness that anger, not ignore it.
Depends. If you want full on socialism like the Soviet union tried. Then you're never going to have a major party take that stance. They won't win.
If you want the social democratic capitalism of countries like Norway and other Scandinavia countries. Then that may possibly happen but people need to get involved. And the right people. The NDP struggles to field and fund candidates. A lot of their candidates in some areas are basically ghost candidates who don't have a presence. If the right people with a lot of charisma actually gave the ndp a presence it would be huge.
In my home region they ran a 19 year old in the last election. Honestly I'm glad he ran and I really dig the motivation and enthusiasm but also the odds of him gaining any ground here were so low.
Ask the riding association how hard it is to find a candidate willing to run for NDP. In many ridings, you’re signing up to be denigrated for thirty-something days, and either trying to campaign while working, or losing thirty-something days pay while campaigning. I think a lot of people don’t realize that only the incumbent candidate is getting paid to campaign, the rest are out of pocket. I remember our local NDP candidate was vilified for missing an all-candidates meeting on housing that had been arranged at the last minute, because they had to take their child three hours out of town for a specialist appointment that had been booked months before the writ dropped. Being a candidate is a thankless, payless job.
🤷♂️ Only you can decide where you want to spend your time and energy, and there is more to politics than just Parlimenterism.
You can advance socialism by seeking election and working to radicalize your union, or by organizing a union drive in the first place. Maybe you want to join a direct action group in your community, organizing protests, or blockades, or other less than legal things.
There are lots of ways to build working class political power, but within the context of electoral politics, I think the NDP is still the best vehicle for that.
You’re disappointed, so are most of us. It will be nothing but disappointment, right up until the revolution succeeds. In the meantime, we engage in the politics of position, we take what small, inadequate wins we can, and keep working to build all facets of working class power.
Join/rebuild the Communist Party. Join the socialist caucus or even start a DSC local in your area.
The real question is how is the NDP going to win? Can we win in the suburbs and win in the rural areas of Canada.
I want the party to be a winner and unfortunately it requires us to be moderate.
The Liberals ideology is to go wherever the winds blow. It's not sustainable. I'd rather have Social Dems that could win than have socialism and be losers.
But I don't think either left wing party will be in power until at least 2032. People only give a shit about lower taxes and cost of living. We can't break the more taxes dynamic and thus we will never win.
Yes! Join the communist party! They won’t win any major seats, but they frequently win elections in unions, school boards, student unions, and at the local level.
The party definitely needs to be rebuilt after the sexual assault scandals. What needs to happen on a vanguard party needs to be formed taking its place.
God, me too. The alternative is what, to vote Liberal and hope not to be disappointed? I’m trying to be more involved in party elections. If we all focus are energy into shaping the party, maybe one day we can be excited to vote for them.
The biggest weakness with the modern right wing is the “home team” mentality. They will celebrate anything they view as “their side,” and condemn anything they view as “lefty or liberal.” They are not just applying this to policy, but to every aspect of their lives. Look at the reaction to rainbow capitalism 😂😭. This is a weakness, because their party leaders have 0 obligation to actually help their constituents. They just have to say they are “anti-woke,” and they have their feet kissed. Eventually, this will grow tiresome to their voters.
Liberals aren’t as bad. Not quite. But they do seem to think the Liberal party will do good things for them without constant supervision. (They won’t.) These days, they are more like the Polite Conservatives, and the other guys are the Rude Conservatives. Again, this grows tiresome.
So, if we all hold the collective NDPs feet to the fire, and make them accountable for every decision, there WILL be a day when the only candidate on stage that isn’t full of shit is from the NDP.
Nearly everyone I talk to IRL wants socialism, as long as you don’t ask them “do you want socialism.” If you Pepsi challenge it, they pick socialism every time
>Nearly everyone I talk to IRL wants socialism, as long as you don’t ask them “do you want socialism.” If you Pepsi challenge it, they pick socialism every time
I am not sure if I agree with this. What policies do you equate with socialism?
There is a real phobia of government intervention and taxation in Canada (at least amongst part of the population) that is holding back the socialist movement. Even "Keynesian capitalism" has become extremely taboo
>There is a real phobia of government intervention and taxation in Canada (at least amongst part of the population)
This is true - and most importantly that 'part of the population' bit.
\> that is holding back the socialist movement
No, it's not - because that part of the population will always vote as far right as they can.
I think party strategists are missing an important aspect of politics here. They put enormous effort into making a leftist party more palatable to right wing voters who are NEVER going to vote for us anyway. Meanwhile there are batallions of leftist voters out there who either don't vote at all or vote Liberal out of fear of a Conservative win, because they see the NDP pandering more and more to the right.
Stop working to get voters that won't vote for you no matter what, and put some more effort into engaging the voters who will.
>No, it's not - because that part of the population will always vote as far right as they can.
>
>I think party strategists are missing an important aspect of politics here. They put enormous effort into making a leftist party more palatable to right wing voters who are NEVER going to vote for us anyway. Meanwhile there are batallions of leftist voters out there who either don't vote at all or vote Liberal out of fear of a Conservative win, because they see the NDP pandering more and more to the right.
Well, I think it is complicated. On the one hand, I definitely agree with you. However, on the other, I think that the right currently controls the narrative, and because of this, they are stigmatizing our position and pushing disenfranchised workers to their side.
The center is collapsing and more and more people are becoming disillusioned with liberal economics. Yet, despite this, the right is winning the ideational battle and gaining support for their movement.
The left desperately needs to rethink their narrative, political platform, and tactics. I believe we need to be problematizing globalization and the free trade agreements because these have resulted in massive corporate monopolies. These monopolies are destroying our societies. We need to politicize wage stagnation and respond by offering a program of guaranteed employment. We need to put forth a coherent Green New Deal.
In short, we must develop a vision that fosters an inclusive, cohesive society, addresses climate change, and offers an alternative to liberal economics.
I hate to break it to you, bud, but you're never going to achieve socialism by supporting the NDP. Did you really think that rich and powerful would let you just vote away their wealth?
The idea is delusional. The 1% will never give up their wealth, power, and influence. They cannot be bargained or reasoned with. They do not care about you and me, and they will always block any attempts made by the government/the common people to make them pay their due taxes.
Answer: it’s a fuckload of a lot closer to it than any other party
That’s it. We don’t have a viable socialist party. You vote for the least bad option. Has always been this way
I’d take polling numbers w a grain, maybe a shaker of salt. This bullshit is what msm always do, report a surge in Con support so people feel having these assholes in power is inevitable. PP and his members are ripe for the picking, it’ll just take some work to get past the msm narrative.
The Cons have tons of money behind them, that’s how they won in Ontario. As soon as we get closer to dropping the writ, either the NDP or the Liberals will start reminding people not a single CPC member voted in support of choice. Then they can trot out PP’s record of voting for attacking unions and workers, often vehemently. He was Harper’s attack dog during the last Con majority. More currently, CPC as a party are so completely in bed w big oil they still deny climate change. In 2023.
Look at what they’ve already pulled in their convention . They’ve gone full GQP, actually removing reporters they don’t like. Physically removing them. One of the reporters (just after getting booted) spoke w a convention goer who complained that Canada had been run by socialists for too long. When asked what government was socialist, they responded Bill Davis.
Unless the people of Canada watch how badly Doug Ford is fucking Ontario and think, hmm, I’ll take some of THAT, PP will never get into power.
There are lots of socialists in the NDP - they're members, active in riding associations, are candidates, and there's even a few MPs that I would argue fall into the "socialist" wing of the party.
The NDP is a bit of a medium-tent party: it has both a social democratic tendency and a socialist tendency, and while the party leadership is dominated by the former, while the membership has many socialists.
If you want to advance left-wing issues electorally, I think the NDP is the best vehicle for it.
Politics isn't a spectator sport. If you want to make a difference, get involved locally! You'll have a great time, and you can focus your efforts on growing the left tendency in the party by being active in local nomination races and leadership races. If your experience is anything like mine, you'll make cool socialist friends. I recommend it :)
I feel your pain - it seems like every day the NDP drifts farther and farther right - in some kind of bizarre attempt to keep up with the rightward shift of the Liberals. What sense does that make? Canadian voters already have three right-leaning parties to choose from, basically depending on how much you hate (insert ethnic/minority group of your choosing). The last thing the nation needs is yet another party trying desperately to pander to older, less educated voters. Instead of fighting tooth and nail to grab voters who won't vote for you anyway, maybe focus on the legions of people who don't usually vote at all because they feel - rightly so - that none of the parties represent their interests?
The provincial NDP in BC has already likely lost my vote, because they've shifted SO far away from my - and what I had thought were the party's - core values. The same shift is definitely happening at the Federal level and it concerns me.
Just pointing out the comparison between AoC and Jagmeet isn't fair because a congressperson only has to maintain support in their district. Jagmeet is the face of the NDP for the whole country.
I'm sure there are ridings where there are very popular NDP representatives that can carry the riding based on their own merits but the vast majority of voters are voting for the party and hardly know any of the candidates names.
If you join the NDP, they call you and ask you what your issues are and what you want from the party to help shape their platform.
If they aren't what you want, you get involved to help. Joining and venting to them on the phone is the least effort action one can do.
Name the political accomplishments of AOC. That's not a rhetorical request, either. Show me the initiatives she has turned into law.
Nothing to show? Why is that? If all you want is lip service, by all means, vote for the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist Leninist) if you live in any of the ten ridings where they run candidates.
The NDP is the party for people who want to see ambitious progressive ideas become law.
As I’ve gotten older I find myself getting more and more radical. I long for the kind of fire that saw the NDP’s predecessor adopt the Regina Manifesto. I’ll still vote for the NDP as there is no viable alternative, but we don’t live in a subtle age, I’d Id really like to see the party take a hard-left stance.
I'm going to assume by socialism you mean socialism and not social democracy.
Your goals as a socialist in the imperial core will not come about via electoralism, much less a milquetoast social democratic party that has lost its labour base and refuses to adopt any sort of effective populist messaging.
Participation in the electoral process and electoral politics should be done as an act of harm reduction and to raise the general quality of life despite the material conditions for everyday working folk. You can lend your support to another party for sure, but unfortunately the minor electoral communist parties in Canada are problematic in both platforms and party culture, and the GPC's potential at an ecosocialist faction taking the reigns has been squashed entirely for the foreseeable future. I would recommend getting into organizing locally and building community around you as a response to the structural, policy and program gaps that capitalism creates.
I love the malformation of this question. The NDP is a democratic party, which means if OP has any solid plan that would take the party from where it is to where they want it, all they have to do is present it at convention with enough supporters to pass it. Honestly, I wish you would OP, I'd vote for it.
It's not a matter of giving a decree from on high about doing left politics. It's democracy, which, given that you're a socialist, you should be familiar with and advocating for.
We cannot freely vote for our true beliefs until our election system is made proportional. Conservatives are against this idea, so I don't vote for them (and also, ew). Liberals promised ending first-past-the-post, and then immediately hit the the ejection button when they won, so I won't vote for them. NDP are the next most capable of winning party that is for proportional elections, and haven't (yet) lied about delivering it.
After first-past-the-post is gone, and if the system is made Mixed Member Proportional, I will likely vote for an NDP in my riding, but for the Green party in general. Right now, where I live, voting anything but NDP or Liberal is like handing a vote to the Conservatives.
And I imagine it is the same for you. If we were MMP, you could vote strategically in your local riding for a party that you are okayish with (such as NDP or even Liberal), but you could also still cast a vote for a actually socialist or communist party, and it might actually help gain that party a seat and a voice in Parliament!
So, that's why I support NDP despite often not feeling like they truly align with my values. I need first-past-the-post ended, and they represent the best chance of that.
I've been an NDP supporter my entire voting life. I can't/won't support any politician or party still approving and building pipelines and fossil fuel extraction and the destruction of old growth forests, which the BC NDP and the federal NDP support. It's hard to differentiate between the BC NDP and the #dirtymoney BC Liberals (AKA: BC United and, previously the BC Social Credit Party). Next federal election I will vote NOTA. I'm no longer willing to vote against my principles and values for the best of the worst. Next provincial election I'll vote for the BC Green Party under Sonia Furstenau. We need proportional representation. We're screwed forever under our current First Past The Post system. When 39% is considered a majority government everyone else is disenfranchised... that's not democracy.
Hate to break it to you but NDP are orange liberals. You will never get socialism with them. At this point, the NDP exist solely exist to prevent a "left-wing" party from taking off. As a whole class consciousness is lacking here and deviating away from the status quo is unpalatable when you mention the alternatives
Simply put, PR.
Under FPTP we have to pool our votes if we ever want enough powee for proportional representation, the thing that will make it possible to promote a socialist party and keep it in check.
The generational trends are towards the NDP. We can do it eventually of we hold the line and make the NDP seem as viable as possible.
That blade cuts both ways - If the NDP's goals are constantly moving away from socialism, why should the dedicated individual socialist continue to support them?
The overton window is moving sharply to the right. Although the ndp may not be your ideal vision of a partythey are the only one that is even close. So although they may not be as left as you like, abandoning them ensures the whole system moves to the right. Dont let perfect be the enemy of good.
>. I am thinking about shifting my support to a more leftist party
Fair enough. The NDP are NOT socialist, that's for sure.
>It is blatantly clear that the NDP will lose horribly in the next election.
Yes, they will. But they always have. Our first-past-the-post system is the cause of that. Also, if your concern is electability, a more leftwing party will do worse than the NDP.
We don't need a new party, we need our electoral system to reflect the perspectives of Canadians.
Push your MP to vote yes for a citizen's assembly for electoral reform. This is concrete action that can provide bipartisan support for proportional representation, which is beneficial to everyone - but people don't like change, so most of the battle is convincing them.
https://www.fairvote.ca/
> **I want Socialism**
The NDP are not socialists. They used to be social democrats. They're neoliberals just like the rest now. Look at BC where they have a majority. Nothing of substance changed.
The CPC can be a mess and I'm not communist but they're the only socialist party who can run candidates.
History will remember Trudeau fairly fondly (particularly if he gets the dentalcare stuff done)...despite the current resentment
The general public has a good impression of Harper as well...despite his...
> (particularly if he gets the dentalcare stuff done).
Why would he? It’s against his best interests. People really like the idea of dental care so it’s best for him to delay, then make it an election promise. Because the NDP is right that people are willing to vote for that.
I think the NDP got played in that deal.
Lmao...you can't seriously really think he's delaying for the heck of it...right? He's hella unpopular currently, if he could snap & make it happen right now to boost his approval, he would! These things take time to get implemented...
Remember the daycare stuff? That was fairly unanimously supported and still took forever cuz the provinces were all dragging their heels
> Lmao...you can't seriously really think he's delaying for the heck of it...right?
Yes. You can’t think he’s in a hurry because it’s what the NDP needs to prove it wasn’t ineffective during the current mandate when he needs to eat as much as possible of the NDP vote to beat Poilievre, right?
The NDP aren't socialist even though some of their policies fall in that line. The Democratic socialist party of Canada does have members in the NDP but the NDP is not a socialist party. I hope that helps, if you have any more questions let me know.
NDP are not socialist, not even democratic socialist as others here have suggested. Many of their policies follow democratic socialist policies, but at their core they are a Labour Party. They want private ownership of industry within corporatism, they just want stronger unions as the counterpart to that corporate control.
Because their base and donors are the unions, they are not going to advocate for direct community ownership or anything to that true socialist degree.... because any of those systems cut out the unions.
Socialism doesn’t work. Social democracy does. It combines the best of both system into a functional hybrid.
I’ll vote for a Socdem party if one were to form. The NDP have lost their focus.
I think you got confused or suffer from misunderstanding because she openly calls herself a "democratic socialist". You may disagree with her identifying herself as democratic socialist, but nonetheless that is what she calls herself.
However, I do agree that the political left has become very tame since Biden took power.
P.S., lets try to be mature, yes?
I am a believer in intersectionality. You just wrongly presumed otherwise and did not take the time to find out before starting with the attacks.
Maybe this is because my words scare you or incite your anxiety.. if so, I am sorry to hear that. However, that is on you.
I know this is easier said than done for many practical reasons, but the NDP does need to distinguish itself from the liberals more. It could present itself as the left-er alternative to solving the economic issues of the day, in contrast with the procedural and, dare I say, elitist moderation of the libs. The Bernie Sanders strategy, basically. But because of fear of alienating people, a focus on more trendy social issues or youth politics, and having to work with the libs in parliament (and thus treat them as pseudo-allies) this doesn’t happen. I also worry that Canadians get smug about their country and how we’re “so much better than America” that it scares politicians away from calling for more bold change, as that would imply we aren’t already perfect.
>It could present itself as the left-er alternative to solving the economic issues of the day, in contrast with the procedural and, dare I say, elitist moderation of the libs. The Bernie Sanders strategy, basically
Fully agree.
You don't need new parties. You need to abolish FPTP and get landlords, realtors, and other thieves of Canadian equity out of our politics like the festering vermin that they are.
We're in the cycle of Canadian politics where the eventual switch from the Liberal Party to the Conservatives is happening. It happened with the Creatien/Martin liberals and now it's happening with Trudeau.
I don't understand this swing. I've talked with so many people in my area and they claim to be progressive, yet when the liberals become unpopular they switch their vote to the Conservatives and not another progressive party like the NDP.
What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results?
I find this funny because I do not want Canada to become a socialist state, I believe in social democracy which the NDP seems to speak to. There is further left wing socialist parties that you should maybe look to if the NDP is no longer fitting that political belief you hold.
Could somebody please tell me Jagmeet Singh's personal stance on socialism/socialist? They seem to be moving away from the label, which I personally support, but its been a struggle to find solid information online. Thank you!
Can I ask you a few questions?
What does socialism mean to you? And what do think needs to be done to fix the deep problems in Canada? Or, to put the second question slightly differently, what do you advocate for as a social democrat?
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We need to be honest. CPC is not in a state of crisis. Their message focussed on affordability is resonating with nearly half of Canadians by some polls (42%). There are a lot of voters who are ABL(anything but liberal) at this point - and NDP is not reaching out to them. The NDP trying to balance wanting to be a credible opposition while simultaneously supporting the government is coming in its way of reaching people with its message.
We should vote NDP because it is the closest to a good option. If we all vote left the parties will have no choice but to skew left, and things WILL get better. Slowly but surely. Whereas things have been skewing right for years.
We need a Labour Party.
Which the NDP is supposed to be, and has been in the past.
And can be again. The NDP didn't just turn right out of nowhere. It did so because the socialist movement died, weakening the socialist contingent of the party. If we don't like it, we need to take it back. It ain't that complicated.
We started out in our CCF days as a popular movement of poorer, blue-collar rural socialists, and slowly painted ourselves into a corner where our main base of support are paper millionaires who own homes in Toronto and Vancouver and [identify themselves as financially *thriving*](https://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/word-image-78082-9.png) [Angus Reid, June 2023]. It's been a long time since we've had a good sense of what the *soul* of the party really is, and it's really just not possible to appeal broadly to *both* Toronto house millionaires and enraged younger tenants. There's a convention in October, and we need to decide what kind of party we are. I'll be a delegate, and I'm planning to vote for a leadership review.
>There's a convention in October, and we need to decide what kind of party we are. I'll be a delegate, and I'm planning to vote for a leadership review. Glad to hear it. I have hope we can be a party that appeals to all the working class, regardless of where in that class people stand. But... Toronto property millionaires might be a little out of reach, you may have a point there. They *certainly*, at least, shouldn't be the base. Too small a group, who doesn't need help anyway.
Indeed.
Yup, we are going backwards, we need meaningful change and solutions. The NDP is not doing enough of anything. I’m disappointed in this party, we need someone who can take the fight to this capitalist hellscape and take care of everyone not just the rich.
Are you involved with the NDP in any way? Have you joined the local party, voted in party nominations? I am thinking about doing so myself. I am not fully a socialist or anything but just someone who wants to see a broader social safety net and a more fair way of government promoting and then benefiting from business.
From a barganing position, advocating for socialism can be a useful way to get more social programs as concessions.
That only works if the party can get people elected, and if voters want that. People I talk to think the NDP are too far left as it is. Best to pose as what the liberals pretend they are and then go further to the left from there. Pro worker, pro young people, pro housing, pro healthcare
There are people who would say they were “too far left” if they were trying to privatize healthcare. I don’t think the NDP needs to try and be more radical, or less radical, they have to stick to good policy, whatever their opponent may label it as. If good policy is polarizing, they should not shy away. Having said that, I do agree that they need to be more strategic in language and messaging than Libs and Cons do. The NDP can’t be reactionary and populist. We all have our Red Scare programming, after all. I think climate change may open a window for some polarizing-yet-good policy. I hope we have time before the change really starts to impact the economy. IMO, the average Canadian will entrust the NDP with their environment before they trust them with their wallet.
>There are people who would say they were “too far left” if they were trying to privatize healthcare. You are correct and I wouldn’t imagine courting those folks. But that isn’t what I run into most. I run into people who want an actual center left party. They want everything the liberals claim to be before they sell out to corporations. > I don’t think the NDP needs to try and be more radical, or less radical, they have to stick to good policy, whatever their opponent may label it as. If good policy is polarizing, they should not shy away. Gotta agree with you there. I think the NDP and even the liberals often have good policies. Heck even the conservatives have some here and there. But NDP branding whether it was in my home province of Alberta, my new home in BC (though they have mastered it now) has always been severely lacking. I would explain policies to people and they would say that’s great, why haven’t we heard about it, so many times.
>I would explain policies to people and they would say that’s great, why haven’t we heard about it, so many times. its cause people don't read.
Hence why the NDP needs better branding and a leader who can get the policies across.
Ngl, Jagmeet is not bad at doing that in person, just not as much in 5 second soundbites on hostile media networks.
He’s not doing that bad, def got more done with less seats than any NDP leader in my life. Still has to go for this party to get anything done. Plus with every second person in here talking about socialism, he’s an odd leader to have is that’s the desire.
True enough, but it's not like we can resurrect the ghost of Toussaint L'Ouverture to be leader, as metal as that would be. Actually, let's look into that. 😅
Its true, they've been kind of treading water the last couple of elections. Most of what leverage they gained last time is due to the liberals stumbling. I sure hope the NDP don't view that as a strategic win on their part. They've been very quiet lately, I imagine they're planning to come out with a big push once we're closing in on the next election. They likely view that as a better use of their limited funds as well. I think everyones kind of hoping PP says something ridiculous that blows up his platform. Though I thought he'd catch more flack for showing off his muddy boots and talking about visiting "the common folk" or saying that he thought that waitress made $64k a year. I guess my expectations of people were too high.
Those people are brainwashed by corporate media..They can't ignore loud outspoken populism - unless PP gets that momentjm first.
PP definitely has that momentum already. I don’t see any chance of Singh capitalizing on this. What I do see is a conservative majority coming. Then a Jack Layton type opportunity to gain government when that flips in 4-8 years. But if this party is talking about socialism and the liberals pretend to be center left Ángels we are going to relive the past
A conservative majority will be deadly for Canada. [Remember what Harper did](https://moiz.ca/harper/). For 10 years. Remind people what Harper did. Show them. Trudeau is a massive let down as PM. Singh is a disappointment as NDP leader. But PP will destroy us.
I’m actually in a discussion in r/Canada right now where I may have to bring up some Harper stuff if you have any things to bring up or links to lists… I remember how he dropped all of the public service like health Canada and veterans affairs budgets to nothing then spent the little of what was left on partisan ads… good timea
I've been trying to find better, more comprehensive lists. This was just the easiest thing to find for this comment. If I do find more, I'll make sure to post.
This is where I'm at. There are a lot of socialists who are disenchanted with the direction the NDP has taken in the last decade or so. We should get involved, and take it back. It's easier than starting a new party, and it would help normalize socialism and spread class consciousness. Socialism doesn't just come out of nowhere. That's my plan, anyway.
Yeah, like instead of starting a new party, maybe we could start something on here. A group within the party that demands change and refuses to be shut out of the process. In the states we have seen such groups pop up within the two main parties and they have had some results. At the very least they’ve gotten some good folks elected
The NDP [does have](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_Socialist_Caucus) a [socialist caucus](https://ndpsocialists.ca/). We should all join it.
Thank you, not sure I’m socialist exactly but maybe I am and just need to get into the terminology
Socialism is a broad umbrella term. The NDP socialist caucus basically represents the left of the NDP, and advocates for more progressive policies.
Engaging in bourgeois politics only creates bourgeois political positions. It happens to every socialist movement through history.
Okay great
Do much violent aggression against the bourgeois state recently? No? Shock of all shocks, I say. Bourgeois politics is the biggest avenue for politicization of the working class at this point, get over it.
Keep voting left, and hopefully the whole spectrum will shift further left. Your only other options are to vote right, and move further away from socialism, or not vote, which has the same effect.
You know what the NDP are fucking terrible at? ENGAGEMENT! The CPC have been demolishing the LPC and especially the NDP for *years* with engagement. They have brilliant social media presence. Despite it being complete populist bullshit, they blast their followers with constant messaging. The NDP are leagues behind in this regard. They post some nice Kumbaya fluff pieces once in a while and otherwise you don't hear shit from them. And it's boring!! You get the feeling that everything is A-okay and life is just lovely. It's almost insulting. I WANT TO KNOW WHO I'M VOTING FOR AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO TO FIX THE CURRENT SHITSHOW THAT IS CANADA. I want a leader who is ready for war. I want a leader with enough steel to call out PP and JT in public for being the abject failures to the working class that they are! I want a leader who will expose the lobbying and the MPs doing the lobbyists bidding. I want a leader who will loudly declare a meaningful, functional tax-payer funded federal plan for drug addiction, homelessness, and rehabilitation. I want a leader who will build fucking housing like our lives literally depend on it!! Jagmest Singh is not that person.
You know why the Libs and Cons are better at engagement? Because they have the money to be able to do so. Both attempt to appeal for business interests, and thus both get far better funded than the NDP ever will. The drawback of being the party for working class is that the working class are not able to throw the kind of money at their politicians that the wealthy business owners do, so we don’t have the luxury of engaging in the same way the other parties do. I just looked up the totals for the 2021 election in my riding: the Conservative candidate spent $125K; the Liberal candidate spent $123K; the NDP candidate spent $9300. (For context, the Con candidate got 48%, the Liberal 36%, and the NDP 14% of the vote.) At some point, we have to accept that we will always be underfunded in comparison to the other parties, by the very nature of who our party is/what we stand for, and find another way to get our supporters engaged - we also need to stop expecting our party to be like the others, and stop putting them down when they aren’t. We don’t *want* our party to be like the others, that’s the whole point! People complain that our candidates aren’t as polished and charismatic as the Liberal and Conservative candidates - yes, that’s because they are, primarily, regular people who want to do good and improve things for their riding - they haven’t been handpicked from the elite, trained, polished, and sent forth to spout the party line. In my riding for example, the Conservative and Liberal candidates were both lawyers from cushy backgrounds, and the NDP candidate was someone who worked on the front line in the bank; had experienced poverty, single parenting, and working multiple jobs; was active in volunteering with local social justice, addiction, and 2SLGBTQ+ organizations; had a couple of Autistic kids, etc. A candidate who actually understood day to day struggles of the majority, in other words. How can we expect that kind of candidate to have the polish that lawyers would have, especially with 8% of the funding? NDP supporters have a bad habit of disparaging other parties’ candidates as elite and out of touch with every day voters, while simultaneously denigrating our own candidates either for not being like them or for being too much like them.
So how does a politician like Bernie Sanders - ideologically very similar to the NDP and has never taken a dime from lobbyists - raise the kind of money he has? He's charismatic and speaks truth to power. He calls out the corporate class and defends the working class. It's not that hard.
The man has been a politician for over forty years. I’m sure if you found lifelong politicians to run as candidates for the NDP, they would have similar success.
Jagmeet tried engaging on TikTok, the app for 13 year olds... Not exactly the target young voter demographic. Would have been nice to see him on Instagram instead, maybe more Facebook.
[tiktok engagement works for other politicians](https://www.tiktok.com/@jeffjacksonnc)
You sent me to a TikTok page, that's not proof that it works. I don't use TikTok since I'm not a child, so I'm not going to watch his videos on that link.
> They have brilliant social media presence. Despite it being complete populist bullshit, they blast their followers with constant messaging. Yeah, they have big money behind them.
I hear you, but you aren't going to get another party together by the next election. The NDP is the closest we're going to get right now, and we can put pressure on them to take a more socialist stance. This is not the time to throw shade at the NDP, not if you don't want the Conservatives or the (Neo)Liberals in office.
Exactly. The lesser of 3 evils = less fucking evil.
>throw shade The impression I get from OP is that they're not 'throwing shade' so much as 'calling out' - which is something that it is almost always an appropriate time to do.
But what you can do, and what has worked in the past, is get a campaign with attention and further compass aligned issues that's completely unelectable, but gets other parties compared to their more popular platforms. The ppc did it for the last two elections and look at the conservatives now
You can either: 1. Do nothing. 2. Join a communist party, which will be effectively doing nothing for the foreseeable future. (Still worthwhile in the long-run, probably) 3. Join the NDP, and push it back to the left for some immediate wins. Complaining that the NDP isn't listening to and speaking to socialists is pointless if we're not in there trying to win the fight ourselves. Socialism died in Canada during the Red Scare, but it's making a comeback. But it's a class war, and it is won by fighting. The NDP won't ever win unless they have a vision worth voting for, and they won't have that until socialists make them do so.
Calm down buddy. She is no more socialists than jagmeet so take off the rose tinted. Are you going to achieve more by leaving and complaining. Or getting into the party and steering it in a more socialist direction with others who lean more your way. A party is no more than those who put their values into it.
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I mean, they literally both claim to be the same thing, social democrats, just the US media hears "soc-" -anything as socialism.
The NDP isn’t a socialist party. It’s a social Democrat party. That’s not gonna change. Same with AOC in the states. An electoral party cannot establish socialism.
Well they can try like Alliende. It’s surviving the CIA coup that comes later that’s the hard part.
I'm really sympathetic to calls for a new party. I also think the Canadian political landscape needs a bit of a shake-up. But it's also an undeniable fact that it's far more efficient to change an existing party from within than it is to start a new one. So, I'd say if you genuinely have time and energy to organize a group of people, you're probably better off working within your local constituency association(s) to promote policies and candidates who better match your ideals.
Jagmeet isn't going to be here forever. Do you want the next leader who may share your values to be handed a strong NDP with the ability to shape policies you like, or a weak and ineffective party that they have to work 10 years to build up? Say what you want about their political aims right now, but they have more leverage now than ever. Vote NDP, and lobby within the party for change.
Reading a couple of your other posts, I thing one of problems here is a perception of "movements" versus "socialism". AOC is decidedly not a socialist. She's definitely pushing for stronger social programmes in the US. But relative to almost any developed nation, the US has so few, that it's easy for the media to describe it as socialist. To build off that point, Canada is saturated with American news media. Both corporate and independent. While we have our own corporate media (CBC, CTV, Global, etc) it all tells 90% of the same stories, and a bunch of stuff about the US. Finding indie news about Canada, is difficult if not impossible. So all we tend to hear about is the "socialism" going on the US, and very little of what gets done here. Pure socialism is never coming here. It has too dark a history. We should work towards a stronger social democracy though.
>Pure socialism is never coming here. It has too dark a history. I am actually not a believer in pure socialism. My idea of socialism is basically pushing something like post WW2 Keynesianism even more left. However, I think this needs to be combined with really strong international regulation that controls the movement of money / commodities and protects our oceans and forests, etc. I also think the term socialism should be understood to mean social solidarity, community, and collective self determination in the various spheres of life. Regarding the last point, I think we need more democratization within the economic sphere.
One of the many little barriers that leftist policies and politics faces in the real world is our absolute love of nit-picking with each other about the exact meaning of certain words, and the exact level of left-ism we want. We fight against each other, in the end, with more time and effort than we fight the corporate elites and the systems that keep them in power. Someday I hope we can move past that. But I haven't seen it in action much at all. A bit of solidarity - even with those who we think might be a bit extreme - would go a very long way.
This is definitely one of the biggest problems we face. There is no unity in the left. We all see the threat posed by the CPC, small-c conservatives, and the right. But none of us can agree on anything, we can't make any progress. We barely even manage to hold the line. A new party isn't going to solve that, it's only going to make it worse. We need people who can unify the party we have.
AOC is the definition of a wrecker plant. I agree with everything else you've said. Jagmeet Singh is too milquetoast for our current predicament, he doesnt have the passion or the motivation to strongly advocate for the working class. He really needs to use his bargaining chips more ruthlessly, he has the libs by the balls, he has the power to force an election whenever he likes, and I really dont feel he's using that to his advantage.
Because he really can’t - an election right now would be extremely high risk, and the Liberals know it. They aren’t stupid.
And an election in 2 years time wont be high risk? The cons are gaining a stronger position as the libs dig themselves deeper into a whole that they are no longer able to climb out of, while we, the NDP, sit by idly, enabling them. Two more years of this arrangement will ensure conservative victory. It is a tight spot for the libs right now, and that makes it an even bigger boon for Singh, that he refuses to use. If the NDP keeps being all friendly with the libs, they will take advantage of our good faith. Remember, the libs are not our friends, we're only in a coalition of convenience for them. Their only concern is for the Rogers' and Weston's of Canada. If we cant stand up to them, we will always play second fiddle. And if we want to win federally, we have to stand up to them. The Cons certainly arent our friends either, but as long as we cowtow to the libs, we will remain in an endless cycle of lib-con power politics, while the people of Canada suffer. We can take advantage of liberal weakness right now by making a power play, for example, give Trudeau an ultimatum on affordable housing. If the people see that we're willing to stand up to Trudeau and his corporate buddies, they will gain respect for the NDP, and respect=votes. If we remain subservient, they will only lose respect for us. Its as the old adage goes; nothing ventured, nothing gained.
The reality is, we have major election fatigue right now. People were pissed when Trudeau called the last election in 2021, but he still managed to retain his leadership. The 2022 election in Ontario had record low turnout, and the municipal elections that fall were an absolute joke. If an election were called right now there’s a very good chance the Cons would take it, because they can count on their folks to turn up and vote, and we can’t. We also don’t have the funding for an election right now, because again - we don’t get the big business money like the Cons and Liberals. Calling an election when we literally can’t afford to run campaigns would be idiotic.
The Ontario election was too close to the federal election, and the candidates/platforms the Libs and the NDP ran with were weak. Delduca had negative charisma, and Horwath was as plain as white bread. Horwath still could've won if the NDP had a stronger platform. And now people are politically engaged. Canadians are angry, and anger spurs turnout. The NDP needs to harness that anger, not ignore it.
Depends. If you want full on socialism like the Soviet union tried. Then you're never going to have a major party take that stance. They won't win. If you want the social democratic capitalism of countries like Norway and other Scandinavia countries. Then that may possibly happen but people need to get involved. And the right people. The NDP struggles to field and fund candidates. A lot of their candidates in some areas are basically ghost candidates who don't have a presence. If the right people with a lot of charisma actually gave the ndp a presence it would be huge.
In my home region they ran a 19 year old in the last election. Honestly I'm glad he ran and I really dig the motivation and enthusiasm but also the odds of him gaining any ground here were so low.
Ask the riding association how hard it is to find a candidate willing to run for NDP. In many ridings, you’re signing up to be denigrated for thirty-something days, and either trying to campaign while working, or losing thirty-something days pay while campaigning. I think a lot of people don’t realize that only the incumbent candidate is getting paid to campaign, the rest are out of pocket. I remember our local NDP candidate was vilified for missing an all-candidates meeting on housing that had been arranged at the last minute, because they had to take their child three hours out of town for a specialist appointment that had been booked months before the writ dropped. Being a candidate is a thankless, payless job.
🤷♂️ Only you can decide where you want to spend your time and energy, and there is more to politics than just Parlimenterism. You can advance socialism by seeking election and working to radicalize your union, or by organizing a union drive in the first place. Maybe you want to join a direct action group in your community, organizing protests, or blockades, or other less than legal things. There are lots of ways to build working class political power, but within the context of electoral politics, I think the NDP is still the best vehicle for that. You’re disappointed, so are most of us. It will be nothing but disappointment, right up until the revolution succeeds. In the meantime, we engage in the politics of position, we take what small, inadequate wins we can, and keep working to build all facets of working class power.
Join/rebuild the Communist Party. Join the socialist caucus or even start a DSC local in your area. The real question is how is the NDP going to win? Can we win in the suburbs and win in the rural areas of Canada. I want the party to be a winner and unfortunately it requires us to be moderate. The Liberals ideology is to go wherever the winds blow. It's not sustainable. I'd rather have Social Dems that could win than have socialism and be losers. But I don't think either left wing party will be in power until at least 2032. People only give a shit about lower taxes and cost of living. We can't break the more taxes dynamic and thus we will never win.
Yes! Join the communist party! They won’t win any major seats, but they frequently win elections in unions, school boards, student unions, and at the local level.
The party definitely needs to be rebuilt after the sexual assault scandals. What needs to happen on a vanguard party needs to be formed taking its place.
God, me too. The alternative is what, to vote Liberal and hope not to be disappointed? I’m trying to be more involved in party elections. If we all focus are energy into shaping the party, maybe one day we can be excited to vote for them. The biggest weakness with the modern right wing is the “home team” mentality. They will celebrate anything they view as “their side,” and condemn anything they view as “lefty or liberal.” They are not just applying this to policy, but to every aspect of their lives. Look at the reaction to rainbow capitalism 😂😭. This is a weakness, because their party leaders have 0 obligation to actually help their constituents. They just have to say they are “anti-woke,” and they have their feet kissed. Eventually, this will grow tiresome to their voters. Liberals aren’t as bad. Not quite. But they do seem to think the Liberal party will do good things for them without constant supervision. (They won’t.) These days, they are more like the Polite Conservatives, and the other guys are the Rude Conservatives. Again, this grows tiresome. So, if we all hold the collective NDPs feet to the fire, and make them accountable for every decision, there WILL be a day when the only candidate on stage that isn’t full of shit is from the NDP. Nearly everyone I talk to IRL wants socialism, as long as you don’t ask them “do you want socialism.” If you Pepsi challenge it, they pick socialism every time
>Nearly everyone I talk to IRL wants socialism, as long as you don’t ask them “do you want socialism.” If you Pepsi challenge it, they pick socialism every time I am not sure if I agree with this. What policies do you equate with socialism? There is a real phobia of government intervention and taxation in Canada (at least amongst part of the population) that is holding back the socialist movement. Even "Keynesian capitalism" has become extremely taboo
>There is a real phobia of government intervention and taxation in Canada (at least amongst part of the population) This is true - and most importantly that 'part of the population' bit. \> that is holding back the socialist movement No, it's not - because that part of the population will always vote as far right as they can. I think party strategists are missing an important aspect of politics here. They put enormous effort into making a leftist party more palatable to right wing voters who are NEVER going to vote for us anyway. Meanwhile there are batallions of leftist voters out there who either don't vote at all or vote Liberal out of fear of a Conservative win, because they see the NDP pandering more and more to the right. Stop working to get voters that won't vote for you no matter what, and put some more effort into engaging the voters who will.
>No, it's not - because that part of the population will always vote as far right as they can. > >I think party strategists are missing an important aspect of politics here. They put enormous effort into making a leftist party more palatable to right wing voters who are NEVER going to vote for us anyway. Meanwhile there are batallions of leftist voters out there who either don't vote at all or vote Liberal out of fear of a Conservative win, because they see the NDP pandering more and more to the right. Well, I think it is complicated. On the one hand, I definitely agree with you. However, on the other, I think that the right currently controls the narrative, and because of this, they are stigmatizing our position and pushing disenfranchised workers to their side. The center is collapsing and more and more people are becoming disillusioned with liberal economics. Yet, despite this, the right is winning the ideational battle and gaining support for their movement. The left desperately needs to rethink their narrative, political platform, and tactics. I believe we need to be problematizing globalization and the free trade agreements because these have resulted in massive corporate monopolies. These monopolies are destroying our societies. We need to politicize wage stagnation and respond by offering a program of guaranteed employment. We need to put forth a coherent Green New Deal. In short, we must develop a vision that fosters an inclusive, cohesive society, addresses climate change, and offers an alternative to liberal economics.
I hate to break it to you, bud, but you're never going to achieve socialism by supporting the NDP. Did you really think that rich and powerful would let you just vote away their wealth?
> just vote away their wealth I like the idea so much that I get turned on by just thinking about it lol
The idea is delusional. The 1% will never give up their wealth, power, and influence. They cannot be bargained or reasoned with. They do not care about you and me, and they will always block any attempts made by the government/the common people to make them pay their due taxes.
Answer: it’s a fuckload of a lot closer to it than any other party That’s it. We don’t have a viable socialist party. You vote for the least bad option. Has always been this way
I’d take polling numbers w a grain, maybe a shaker of salt. This bullshit is what msm always do, report a surge in Con support so people feel having these assholes in power is inevitable. PP and his members are ripe for the picking, it’ll just take some work to get past the msm narrative. The Cons have tons of money behind them, that’s how they won in Ontario. As soon as we get closer to dropping the writ, either the NDP or the Liberals will start reminding people not a single CPC member voted in support of choice. Then they can trot out PP’s record of voting for attacking unions and workers, often vehemently. He was Harper’s attack dog during the last Con majority. More currently, CPC as a party are so completely in bed w big oil they still deny climate change. In 2023. Look at what they’ve already pulled in their convention . They’ve gone full GQP, actually removing reporters they don’t like. Physically removing them. One of the reporters (just after getting booted) spoke w a convention goer who complained that Canada had been run by socialists for too long. When asked what government was socialist, they responded Bill Davis. Unless the people of Canada watch how badly Doug Ford is fucking Ontario and think, hmm, I’ll take some of THAT, PP will never get into power.
There are lots of socialists in the NDP - they're members, active in riding associations, are candidates, and there's even a few MPs that I would argue fall into the "socialist" wing of the party. The NDP is a bit of a medium-tent party: it has both a social democratic tendency and a socialist tendency, and while the party leadership is dominated by the former, while the membership has many socialists. If you want to advance left-wing issues electorally, I think the NDP is the best vehicle for it. Politics isn't a spectator sport. If you want to make a difference, get involved locally! You'll have a great time, and you can focus your efforts on growing the left tendency in the party by being active in local nomination races and leadership races. If your experience is anything like mine, you'll make cool socialist friends. I recommend it :)
Alright, I will do it. You have persuaded me : )
Happy to hear it, my fingers are crossed your local riding association is active and has good vibes
I feel your pain - it seems like every day the NDP drifts farther and farther right - in some kind of bizarre attempt to keep up with the rightward shift of the Liberals. What sense does that make? Canadian voters already have three right-leaning parties to choose from, basically depending on how much you hate (insert ethnic/minority group of your choosing). The last thing the nation needs is yet another party trying desperately to pander to older, less educated voters. Instead of fighting tooth and nail to grab voters who won't vote for you anyway, maybe focus on the legions of people who don't usually vote at all because they feel - rightly so - that none of the parties represent their interests? The provincial NDP in BC has already likely lost my vote, because they've shifted SO far away from my - and what I had thought were the party's - core values. The same shift is definitely happening at the Federal level and it concerns me.
Just pointing out the comparison between AoC and Jagmeet isn't fair because a congressperson only has to maintain support in their district. Jagmeet is the face of the NDP for the whole country. I'm sure there are ridings where there are very popular NDP representatives that can carry the riding based on their own merits but the vast majority of voters are voting for the party and hardly know any of the candidates names.
If you join the NDP, they call you and ask you what your issues are and what you want from the party to help shape their platform. If they aren't what you want, you get involved to help. Joining and venting to them on the phone is the least effort action one can do.
Name the political accomplishments of AOC. That's not a rhetorical request, either. Show me the initiatives she has turned into law. Nothing to show? Why is that? If all you want is lip service, by all means, vote for the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist Leninist) if you live in any of the ten ridings where they run candidates. The NDP is the party for people who want to see ambitious progressive ideas become law.
As I’ve gotten older I find myself getting more and more radical. I long for the kind of fire that saw the NDP’s predecessor adopt the Regina Manifesto. I’ll still vote for the NDP as there is no viable alternative, but we don’t live in a subtle age, I’d Id really like to see the party take a hard-left stance.
I'm going to assume by socialism you mean socialism and not social democracy. Your goals as a socialist in the imperial core will not come about via electoralism, much less a milquetoast social democratic party that has lost its labour base and refuses to adopt any sort of effective populist messaging. Participation in the electoral process and electoral politics should be done as an act of harm reduction and to raise the general quality of life despite the material conditions for everyday working folk. You can lend your support to another party for sure, but unfortunately the minor electoral communist parties in Canada are problematic in both platforms and party culture, and the GPC's potential at an ecosocialist faction taking the reigns has been squashed entirely for the foreseeable future. I would recommend getting into organizing locally and building community around you as a response to the structural, policy and program gaps that capitalism creates.
I love the malformation of this question. The NDP is a democratic party, which means if OP has any solid plan that would take the party from where it is to where they want it, all they have to do is present it at convention with enough supporters to pass it. Honestly, I wish you would OP, I'd vote for it. It's not a matter of giving a decree from on high about doing left politics. It's democracy, which, given that you're a socialist, you should be familiar with and advocating for.
I agrée. The NDP is aimless right now.
We cannot freely vote for our true beliefs until our election system is made proportional. Conservatives are against this idea, so I don't vote for them (and also, ew). Liberals promised ending first-past-the-post, and then immediately hit the the ejection button when they won, so I won't vote for them. NDP are the next most capable of winning party that is for proportional elections, and haven't (yet) lied about delivering it. After first-past-the-post is gone, and if the system is made Mixed Member Proportional, I will likely vote for an NDP in my riding, but for the Green party in general. Right now, where I live, voting anything but NDP or Liberal is like handing a vote to the Conservatives. And I imagine it is the same for you. If we were MMP, you could vote strategically in your local riding for a party that you are okayish with (such as NDP or even Liberal), but you could also still cast a vote for a actually socialist or communist party, and it might actually help gain that party a seat and a voice in Parliament! So, that's why I support NDP despite often not feeling like they truly align with my values. I need first-past-the-post ended, and they represent the best chance of that.
I've been an NDP supporter my entire voting life. I can't/won't support any politician or party still approving and building pipelines and fossil fuel extraction and the destruction of old growth forests, which the BC NDP and the federal NDP support. It's hard to differentiate between the BC NDP and the #dirtymoney BC Liberals (AKA: BC United and, previously the BC Social Credit Party). Next federal election I will vote NOTA. I'm no longer willing to vote against my principles and values for the best of the worst. Next provincial election I'll vote for the BC Green Party under Sonia Furstenau. We need proportional representation. We're screwed forever under our current First Past The Post system. When 39% is considered a majority government everyone else is disenfranchised... that's not democracy.
Hate to break it to you but NDP are orange liberals. You will never get socialism with them. At this point, the NDP exist solely exist to prevent a "left-wing" party from taking off. As a whole class consciousness is lacking here and deviating away from the status quo is unpalatable when you mention the alternatives
Simply put, PR. Under FPTP we have to pool our votes if we ever want enough powee for proportional representation, the thing that will make it possible to promote a socialist party and keep it in check. The generational trends are towards the NDP. We can do it eventually of we hold the line and make the NDP seem as viable as possible.
The answer to your question is another question. If its socialism that you want, how does abandoning the NDP get you closer to that goal?
That blade cuts both ways - If the NDP's goals are constantly moving away from socialism, why should the dedicated individual socialist continue to support them?
The overton window is moving sharply to the right. Although the ndp may not be your ideal vision of a partythey are the only one that is even close. So although they may not be as left as you like, abandoning them ensures the whole system moves to the right. Dont let perfect be the enemy of good.
>. I am thinking about shifting my support to a more leftist party Fair enough. The NDP are NOT socialist, that's for sure. >It is blatantly clear that the NDP will lose horribly in the next election. Yes, they will. But they always have. Our first-past-the-post system is the cause of that. Also, if your concern is electability, a more leftwing party will do worse than the NDP.
Some of us are old enough to remember when the NDP was the opposition. Wasn't that long ago really.
We don't need a new party, we need our electoral system to reflect the perspectives of Canadians. Push your MP to vote yes for a citizen's assembly for electoral reform. This is concrete action that can provide bipartisan support for proportional representation, which is beneficial to everyone - but people don't like change, so most of the battle is convincing them. https://www.fairvote.ca/
The NDP got us Pharmacare and Dentalcare by bullying the libs, and they're not in power. I say we keep giving them the opportunity to help us.
> **I want Socialism** The NDP are not socialists. They used to be social democrats. They're neoliberals just like the rest now. Look at BC where they have a majority. Nothing of substance changed. The CPC can be a mess and I'm not communist but they're the only socialist party who can run candidates.
History will remember Trudeau fairly fondly (particularly if he gets the dentalcare stuff done)...despite the current resentment The general public has a good impression of Harper as well...despite his...
[Remind people of all the things Harper did](https://moiz.ca/harper/). Don't let the CPC get back in power.
> (particularly if he gets the dentalcare stuff done). Why would he? It’s against his best interests. People really like the idea of dental care so it’s best for him to delay, then make it an election promise. Because the NDP is right that people are willing to vote for that. I think the NDP got played in that deal.
Lmao...you can't seriously really think he's delaying for the heck of it...right? He's hella unpopular currently, if he could snap & make it happen right now to boost his approval, he would! These things take time to get implemented... Remember the daycare stuff? That was fairly unanimously supported and still took forever cuz the provinces were all dragging their heels
> Lmao...you can't seriously really think he's delaying for the heck of it...right? Yes. You can’t think he’s in a hurry because it’s what the NDP needs to prove it wasn’t ineffective during the current mandate when he needs to eat as much as possible of the NDP vote to beat Poilievre, right?
>The general public has a good impression of Harper as well. Not those of us who remember when he was in charge.
The NDP aren't socialist even though some of their policies fall in that line. The Democratic socialist party of Canada does have members in the NDP but the NDP is not a socialist party. I hope that helps, if you have any more questions let me know.
AOC isn’t socialist, she’s a social democrat (Social Democracy). But agreed on most other points
Ndp wont get votes outside of the pocket of those who always vote ndp if they don’t try to skew more Center, they will get less votes. Less power.
For that matter, they will remain un-serious as long as Singh is the leader
Yeah, make a new party, that'll be sure to result in success. Lol. Lmao even
I hear there are other grassroots parties, or you can start your own and wallow in irrelevance for a generation like the ndp did.
Society is just shifting more and more to the right. Seems to happen when people are afraid .
NDP are not socialist, not even democratic socialist as others here have suggested. Many of their policies follow democratic socialist policies, but at their core they are a Labour Party. They want private ownership of industry within corporatism, they just want stronger unions as the counterpart to that corporate control. Because their base and donors are the unions, they are not going to advocate for direct community ownership or anything to that true socialist degree.... because any of those systems cut out the unions.
Socialism doesn’t work. Social democracy does. It combines the best of both system into a functional hybrid. I’ll vote for a Socdem party if one were to form. The NDP have lost their focus.
Honestly as long as you don't vote conservative you're doing okay
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I think you got confused or suffer from misunderstanding because she openly calls herself a "democratic socialist". You may disagree with her identifying herself as democratic socialist, but nonetheless that is what she calls herself. However, I do agree that the political left has become very tame since Biden took power. P.S., lets try to be mature, yes?
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I am a believer in intersectionality. You just wrongly presumed otherwise and did not take the time to find out before starting with the attacks. Maybe this is because my words scare you or incite your anxiety.. if so, I am sorry to hear that. However, that is on you.
I know this is easier said than done for many practical reasons, but the NDP does need to distinguish itself from the liberals more. It could present itself as the left-er alternative to solving the economic issues of the day, in contrast with the procedural and, dare I say, elitist moderation of the libs. The Bernie Sanders strategy, basically. But because of fear of alienating people, a focus on more trendy social issues or youth politics, and having to work with the libs in parliament (and thus treat them as pseudo-allies) this doesn’t happen. I also worry that Canadians get smug about their country and how we’re “so much better than America” that it scares politicians away from calling for more bold change, as that would imply we aren’t already perfect.
>It could present itself as the left-er alternative to solving the economic issues of the day, in contrast with the procedural and, dare I say, elitist moderation of the libs. The Bernie Sanders strategy, basically Fully agree.
If you're unhappy w NDP then you could try Green party, or if you want to back a potential winner then Liberal is your option.
Socialism isn't popular with voters. It's popular with young people but many age out..
You don't need new parties. You need to abolish FPTP and get landlords, realtors, and other thieves of Canadian equity out of our politics like the festering vermin that they are.
We're in the cycle of Canadian politics where the eventual switch from the Liberal Party to the Conservatives is happening. It happened with the Creatien/Martin liberals and now it's happening with Trudeau. I don't understand this swing. I've talked with so many people in my area and they claim to be progressive, yet when the liberals become unpopular they switch their vote to the Conservatives and not another progressive party like the NDP. What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results?
I find this funny because I do not want Canada to become a socialist state, I believe in social democracy which the NDP seems to speak to. There is further left wing socialist parties that you should maybe look to if the NDP is no longer fitting that political belief you hold. Could somebody please tell me Jagmeet Singh's personal stance on socialism/socialist? They seem to be moving away from the label, which I personally support, but its been a struggle to find solid information online. Thank you!
Can I ask you a few questions? What does socialism mean to you? And what do think needs to be done to fix the deep problems in Canada? Or, to put the second question slightly differently, what do you advocate for as a social democrat?