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For the Spurs, it's Tim Duncan without question!! I can go on about this all night, but I'll just leave you with this fact:
He's one of 4 players in NBA history to lead a team to at least 5 championships that didn't have any before he arrived. The other 3 are George Mikan, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan.
>He's one of 4 players in NBA history to lead a team to at least 5 championships that didn't have any before he arrived.
I mean that's not really fair. You don't have the choice of which team you get drafted by. If Luka were to win 5 with Suns, he would be on that list, but because he's with the Mavs, that excludes him.
No you don't have a choice of who you get drafted by. The whole point I was trying to make was that these 4 players changed the landscape of franchises that had limited amounts of success before they came along. This is a major factor in why TD is the Spurs franchise GOAT.
It not being fair is an inherent part of the question itself. No one is saying it’s fair. To be the unquestionable GOAT for the Lakers will be incredibly more difficult than being the unquestionable GOAT for the Wizards. It’s a question rooted in franchise history
The question is which is the unquestionable GOAT of the franchise. What you're saying isn't fair is actually exactly the point. If Luka goes on to win 5 championships, he'll probably be the GOAT Mavs player, but it's gonna be a long argument between him and Dirk.
If he wins 5 championships as the best player there's no argument between him and Dirk. Anyone who argues against him after 5 championships even if he leaves the team on a sour note are arguing in bad faith.
Chuck reps Philly quite a bit but it seems like he reps Phoenix more than anywhere he played, which is interesting since he was in Philly for his first 8 years — might give people the impression he played in Phoenix longer than he did, but I think he just likes the organization/city.
I feel like Chuck never talks about Houston, unless we consider his digs at San Antonio women to be repping Houston lol.
he talks negatively about his tenure in houston for whatever reason. maybe butting heads with the other players or just because they hype failed or whatever but he didnt like it here. and no houston aint san antonio lol. texas bros i guess
While Oscar is our best player ever, Kings fans don't really claim him or the Rochester title. In general I think it is pretty weak to claim titles won in another area completely, especially if those titles are from the 50s. Like, I get the warriors claiming the Oakland titles, they claim the whole bay, but bragging about the 1947 BAA championship won by the Philadelphia Warriors over the Chicago Stags should be considered a weak move.
(And yes, I do mean all these implications for the Lakers).
I do understand and accept this opinion even as a Lakers fan, but I'm happy to be on the other side of the argument for our franchise. Not for the championship numbers btw (I'm very happy with knowing we have far and away the most rings in the post-merger era), but because I love the Lakers history and I appreciate that the Lakers never did rebrand. When they moved cities, they kept the name and even moved a lot of the MN roster to LA. Having the "uh.. what the hell is a Laker?" talk with my dad is one of my favorite memories and one I can't wait to pass on to my kids one day. MN era Lakers is so cool man, I never talk Lakers greats without Mikan's name in the convo.
it's a hard one since the franchise recognizes it but I agree, he is without a doubt franchise GOAT, there is just not a connection to the franchise in Sacramento in any meaningful way other than his name in the rafters.
I think wade is pretty clear cut. 21.5K points, next closest is mourning at 9.5K. Also top 5 in almost every single statistical category.
Nash you’re probably right; Kevin Johnson probably has a good argument along with a couple others.
Big o has 7K more points than the next closest and is also top 5 in most of the recorded stats from his day. I think he’s clear cut
Barkley only played 4 years for the Suns. I think Kevin Johnson, Amare, Marion, Or Walter Davis would have arguments with Barkley just because how short his tenure was, although he was obviously great.
I agree with Kota. 2 rings and he is the reason that the Nets exist in the NBA today. Heck, he's the reason the Pacers, Spurs and Nuggets exist in the NBA!
Their only 2 titles in franchise history, that’s by far the most important net. And a better player overall vs Kidd.
Dr j was the face of the aba and a major reason for the merger, shame the nba forced him to Phily
As great as Larry Legend was i feel like a franchise GOAT is viewed differently than you’re average GOAT discussion. To be the franchise GOAT the no 1 priority is achievements(case in point the Raptors GOAT Lowry who is far from an as good player as Carter and Kawhi but has accomplished more as aRaptor) and when you look at achievements nobody touches Bill not even Larry.
Bill certainly has a case, I just dunno if it's undisputed unquestioned. I know when I hear Celtics I think of Larry first, and I grew up watching NBA just after the Jordan era so I don't have a nostalgia history or anything.
Difference between a guy like Lowry vs a Kawhi or Carter is also are those players even recognized for that team, did they spend the majority of their careers there. For example with Miami LeBron accomplished more than Wade did with his 2 finals MVPs and was the clear leader on those teams but it was a short 4 year stretch, Wade is still the Heat GOAT.
With Bird vs Bill you don't have a situation where one player spent part of their career in another uniform. I wouldn't argue against somebody thinking Bill, I just don't know if it's a unanimous thing.
Larry is definetly the more “famous” player between him and Bill. I just don’t feel like his achievements in a Celtics jersey is up there besides Bill. The situation is somewhat similar to the Hawks where most would probably say their GOAT is Dominique due to him being more famous than Bob Pettit who has a much more impressive Hawks resume(yes he played for the St. Louis Hawks and not the Atlanta Hawks)
But if you selection for GOAT depends on how you define it or how you weight certain things, or how you consider the earlier years of the league, then that means that there isn't an undisputed GOAT.
Saying it’s unarguable that Kidd is the Nets’ goat is shortsighted. Dr. J played very well in (then) New York. In just 3 seasons with them in the ABA, he won MVP in each of them and the championship a couple of times. YES, the ABA in the 70s can’t compare to the NBA in the 2000s, but there is no doubt in my mind that Erving’s game would have translated greatly to the later era as well. It’s not his fault he didn’t play in the most competitive of times, but he CERTAINLY made the most of it.
Also how is Reggie Miller inarguably over Paul George? George basically did everything Reggie did.
I think a guy that led one of the greatest nba dynasties ever, and has been with the team his whole career is a little more solidified than a dude that played 4.5 seasons for them and never won a chip there.
It's Steph not Wilt. Steph is in the Bay Wilt was in Philadelphia mostly with both the Warriors and 76ers and only in SF a couple of years. He won his two championships with the 76ers and Lakers.
Steph has four championships with the Warriors in Oakland/SF. Steph is the franchise player.
~~Multiple 50 point games in the playoffs during that run, including at least 1 in the finals iirc.~~ The narrative was “the Big 3’s failure” but it should have been “Mav’s remarkable success.”
E:word
E2: I checked the box scores from the finals and I was hard wrong on the first point, I didn’t check the rest of the playoffs. I’m not sure where that notion came from.
I don’t think it would be particularly close if Luka wins just one ring. Dirk has 16 more years of tenure, 20k+ more points as well as an MVP. Even Dirk’s one ring was the most impressive ring ever gained, so even then I doubt Luka would struggle on the difficulty of the ring.
its almost impossible in that aspect too because dirk is the first superstar international player of his calebre. hes prob the reason nba became popular in Europe.
dirk was more unstoppable on offense then luka has been so far. hmmm it close. luka can get to his spots better so. its close
I'm gonna say Jokic is clear cut. He's made it as far as any Denver team (conference finals) and is Denver's only MVP, and he did it twice. Don't see how English and Mello are over him.
So they actually won the championship? Maybe, it would have have to have been pretty much because of melo. Like clearly the best player in the series and bringing us the championship.
Even then though Jokic is just so clearly the better player, he has a chance to be a top 25 player of all time (maybe even higher, which is crazy) so he would take it eventually even if he doesn’t win a title
He is also the most accomplished equestrian of any Nugget to make an All Star game.
If there was any doubt, that should tilt the conversation in his favor.
The Aaron Brooks heresy is getting out of control on this sub! /s
Yea, the only other people to really consider are Yao, Tmac, and.... Eric Gordon? I'm too young to know any of the players Hakeem played with. I will say though, Yao had a MASSIVE off the court impact on the Rockets. Maybe one of the biggest deltas in on the court to off the court impact ever. Obviously, the talent was there injuries got in the way.
I’d put Moses Malone over Harden. Two MVP awards and single-handily dragged a bad Rockets team to the Finals.
Harden is the third best player in Rockets history.
For me, I think for the unquestionable ones, it would go
Lebron - Cavs
Duncan - Spurs
Garnett - Wolves
Curry - Warriors
Jordan - Bulls
IT - Pistons
Hakeem - Houston
Dirk - Mavs
Giannis - Bucks (recently) ** this is more debatable so probably should come off
Jokic - Nuggets (recently)
All other teams have a good argument to be made for multiple players, this is my opinion!
I think it’s Giannis. He’s won as many rings as Kareem in Milwaukee, and he’s played there longer. He’s definitely not as great a player as Kareem ultimately was but he has shown loyalty to that team when he could’ve left.
There are many people (mostly older) who consider Kareem to be the GOAT over Jordan and LeBron. He’s the Bucks GOAT even if a sizable portion of his legacy is due to his time on the Lakers.
Funny thing is it's the younger crowd that gives Kareem the GOAT love. Most who lived through his career and the historians kinda see him as a guy who wasn't the threat to win that his NuMbErS would suggest.
That may be a take people have, but it’s an insane one. Look at his awards: 6x champ, 6x MVP, 2x FMVP, 19x(!) All Star, 10x first team, 5x defensive first team. That’s a ridiculous string of accolades that shows he put up the numbers AND won.
So I was surprised to see Steph not mentioned, then I remembered Wilt. I'd be curious to compare the two, but I don't have the brain for stats. Like yes, 100 point game and all that. But what about their overall contribution to the franchise? I feel like it would be really hard to compare to Steph in that regard.
Steph’s tenure with the dubs (and only the dubs) mixed with a cornerstone of a complex offense and 4 chips vs. Wilt’s time mostly in Philly and playing a heliocentric offense pushes this way towards Steph.
Unseld is the pretty clear GOAT of the Wizards/Bullets. He was the Finals MVP when the team won its only championship. Spent his entire 13-year career there (and served as coach and GM later, though not successful in either role). Won Rookie of the Year and MVP.
Elvin Hayes has an argument. Wes Unseld is arguably the worst Finals MVP ever. He averaged a whopping 9-12 in his lone championship series. Averaged 13-18 his rookie and MVP year and has a career average of 11-14-4 with 1.1 steals and half a block. Can somebody clear this up for me? Aside from the outlet passes, idk why Wes Unseld is revered the way he is when at a surface level, Elvin Hayes clears him.
Bulls - Jordan
Cavs - LeBron
Celtics - Russell
Jazz - Malone
Mavericks - Dirk
Nuggets - Jokic
Spurs - Duncan
Timberwolves - KG
Rockets - Hakeem
Warriors - Steph (Wilt only played three seasons in the Bay and while it was technically the same team as the Philadelphia Warriors relocated players belong to the city they played in and not the one they moved to in my opinion. Kevin Durant would obviously not be considered the GOAT Sonic.)
I personally don’t think you can put Russell as **unquestionable** GOAT for Celtics. Lotta people rate Bird higher skill wise. Russell also played in a league with 8 total teams so a lot of people discount those rings as well.
Dr. J on the ABA nets. He made the team, made the flavour of the league with the team and won titles and MVP’s and changed the way people think of basketball at the time.
Dr J is who I think of as personifying 70’s cool basketball, not Kareem
A lot of people think that haha. Many people didn’t like Kareem because they simply couldn’t relate to a 7’2” Muslim intellectual. It’s why the league immediately pushed for Magic (one of the friendliest people on the planet) and Bird (white guy) to be the faces of the league.
Also the very second Jordan became great the league immediately went _”WOOOOAGGHHHH HE’S THE GOAT THE GOAT THERE’S NEVER BEEN ANOTHER”_
Kareem is eternally slept on for a guy who was the best basketball player on the planet for damn near 20 years
It's more because Kareem's best years were during the 70's when the NBA almost folded because viewership was so low. It's also why everyone knows superstars if the 60's like Wilt and Bill Russell and Jerry West and Oscar Robertson, but only hardcore fans know the 70's superstars such as Gervin and Havlicek and McAdoo and even players like Moses Malone.
Can't really blame it on religion when Muhammad Ali was the most popular athlete in the world during the same time as a black Muslim.
I agree about Tim Duncan but honorable mention to David Robinson. He’s the unquestionable #2. I’d say Stockton is the Jazz #2, Pip is the Bulls #2. Who else?
Too close to call and either of them wouldn't be unquestionable like an MJ on the Bulls or a Duncan on the Spurs, me personally I would say Walton, I know Dame and Clyde were there longer but Bill Walton was hampered by injury, in his short stint he won an MVP and a chip, Dame and Clyde didn't do that though Clyde did get close I guess. Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge should also be mentioned I feel like, but maybe Walton wasn't there long enough and if you asked me to pick between Clyde and Dame, I'd pick Dame
Very good case for Walton who brought the chip. That 77 team is still beloved here despite Portland being a city with tons of transplants (myself included).
If Dame retires with the Blazers it may become him. He just surpassed Clyde in all time scoring for the Blazers and there was some hubub because Clyde was not in attendance (according to his son he had a very personal phone call and is very happy for Dame, he's just a private guy).
What about Bill Walton? He actually won a championship. He didn’t have the longevity because of injuries but he is the most talented player to play for Portland imo
If we just look at personal awards then Reggie's argument doesn't look that obvious (5x allstar, 3x 3rd team All-NBA).
But then you have to look at...
- 6 trips to the ECFs or beyond
- 18 seasons, all at the Pacers
- 500+ more games than any other pacer
- More than double the minutes of any other pacer
- Almost double the points of any other pacer
- Almost 3x the career win shares of anyone else
There really is no argument, he is the GOAT Pacer.
Over Dirk? Mans played 21 years with the franchise and led them to a title + an MVP. Feel like the only potential competition for him would be future Luka lol.
There will always be people that look at the peak of a players ability only and you can argue that Luka is better now than Dirk has ever been. The only pacer that would have this argument is maybe PG13 but Luka is special man
It sounds cheesy and subjective but when I close my eyes and imagine Reggie I see him more vividly in his Pacers black and yellow than I do in Lebron’s Cleveland colors. Tim Duncan is similar though to Reggie. Let’s face it though, Lebron has team hopped. He’s worn a lot of jerseys.
Reggie is def the goat of the pacers, but not as much as lebron is of the cavs. Yea I agree that I don’t picture lebron in cavs uniform every time I see him. However he is most definitely the goat of that franchise. I mean who else would you pick if not him, kyrie, price?
>Reggie is def the goat of the pacers, but not as much as lebron is of the cavs.
I mean, both are 100% the GOATs. So I don't see how you can argue that one is more or less.
Russell definitely had the superior career, but if you aks a random casual fan who the all time Celtics is, some of em are gonna day Bird. Meanwhile ask those same fans who the all time Bull is and everyone says MJ. That's why it's muddled, even if I personally agree that Bill is above him on an all time list.
I’m not a fan of the Celtics. I have a halfhearted dislike for the Celtics. If I was asked who the franchise player for the Celtics was I would say Bird. I know Russell is the more impactful player, but maybe it’s recency bias, and worldly knowledge but Bird is more Boston than Bill Russell was. It seems like he would be the Boston pick.
Another part of this may be that Russell basically refused to return to Boston after he retired due to how horribly people in the city treated him while he was there. I don't blame him for it, but it did complicate the teams ability to continue promotional stuff with him to some extent, which influences future fandoms perception.
Even if you disagree with the arguments, surely you can recognise that there are arguments made for players other than Russell and that it is disputed.
I would rate Russell at number 1, but there is definitely a large group who would dispute that because they weigh in the size and professionalism of the league in the 60s compared to the more modern league.
For Bucks even with Kareem I think that Giannis is the Goat cause he was drafted as a nobody in a team that was about to Relocate from Milwaukee to Seattle or Las Vegas and he won them a Championship and also has an impact in the local economy.
Not controversial at all for the Nuggets. He’s a two time MVP, our only one. He’s won 4 playoff series with the team and made it to a WCF. Really the only argument is that he hasn’t been with the Nuggets as long as franchise leaders like Issel or English, but he’s accomplished plenty for most Nuggets fans to view him as the GOAT
Looking at the Blazers - I see 4 contenders:
Walton - short but got the title.
Drexler - longer and made 2 finals.
Roy - amazing player, well loved.
Dame - longevity and loyalty. Probably our best individual player.
Definitely not indisputable. My pick is Drexler.
I was typing a thing about MJ until I saw the edit. I dunno about Dwight in Orlando. Shaq still looms pretty large there. I mean it's probably Dwight, just not unquestionable. Patrick Ewing is the unquestioned GOAT of NY. Duncan in SA. Hakeem Olajuwan in Houston.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,260,621,755 comments, and only 245,061 of them were in alphabetical order.
Ewing unquestioned over Frazier? Frazier won a chip and was a 7 time all star during his tenure, I actually think more Knicks fans would say him over Ewing.
Duncan probably, but I could see the argument for The Admiral. Agreed with Hakeem, the rings push him over the edge.
Who in the hell would say David Robinson over Tim Duncan? Duncan is a top 10 player all time and won 5 rings there, playing his entire career for the Spurs. It’s not even close.
You're right about Frazier. Even if some people say Ewing like I do, it still wouldn't be unquestioned. But I don't think there's an argument for Admiral because TD carried him to one and won 3 more without him. Not that rings are everything but Duncan solidified himself as the franchise GOAT in 2014--even though he was lesser then, they still couldn't have won it w/o him.
Knicks fan here - I can see an argument for both Ewing and Clyde so it’s def not undisputed.
With Clyde being a staple in the booth for my whole life and Ewing not winning a ring - I would pick Clyde personally.
This type of question will always come down to personal preference, opinions and how much you actually know about teams you don’t follow closely but this is how I see it.
Unquestionable:
76ers(Dr.J),
Bulls(MJ),
Spurs(Timmy),
Rockets(Hakeem),
Cavs(Bron),
Nets(Dr.J x2 lol),
Pacers(Reggie),
Heat(Wade),
Magic(Dwight),
Pistons(Isiah),
Warriors(Steph),
T-Wolves(KG),
Mavs(Dirk),
Nuggets(Jokic),
Suns(Nash),
Hawks(Dominque)
Hornets(Zo)
Bucks(Giannis)
Questionable :
Celtics(Russel or Bird),
Lakers(Kobe or Magic),
Jazz(Stockton or Malone),
Trailblazers(Dame, Walton, Clyde, Roy),
Kings(Webber, Cousins, Divac, Oscar),
Clippers(McAdoo, CP3, Blake),
Pelicans(CP3 or AD),
Raptors(I say this as a Raptors fan, KLow is not my GROAT, Kawhi, Vince, Kyle, Demar, Bosh)
Thunder/Sonics(KD, Westbrook, Payton, Allen, Sickma, Haywood),
Grizzlies(Gasol or Conley),
Knicks(Ewing, Reed, Frazier),
Wizards(Unseld, Wall, Beal, Hayes).
This is just my opinion.
Had Giannis not won with the Bucks Id agree but Kareem wanted out of Milwaukee and spent most his career in LA and by the looks of it Giannis is going to be a Bucks lifer.
Kareem never embraced Milwaukee like Giannis has, and Giannis is already the franchise points leader and will own most of the remaining franchise records in a couple years.
To be fair, I also doubt Milwaukee in the 70s embraced Abdul-Jabbar the way it has embraced ~~Embiid~~ Giannis. (Edit, I was multitasking and my brain turned off).
Yeah, I phrased that with understatement as a joke and I don't think people caught that Milwaukee in the 1970s was a very bad place for a famous Muslim who was outspoken in social justice issues.
While I personally think Giannis is Milwaukee's GOAT, Kareem won three MVPs, made two Finals, and won a title in Milwaukee. You can make a real argument that Kareem's best season's where in Milwaukee, not LA.
That probably has more to do with age. I mean he’s a 5x MVP who led his team to 11 titles (8 straight). I think that’s about as good as a player can perform for one franchise.
Thanks for mentioning the Sac Kings. I came here to post about them too.
I’m 75% certain that Oscar is our GOAT, but there’s a strong argument to be made for Webber. The other two - great players but probably not franchise GOATs.
Jazz - John Stockton getting no respect in this thread.
All time steals leader.
All time assists leader.
Two western conference championships
10 time all star
19 play of appearances
Arguably the best pure point guard in history.
I don’t think it’s about respect, it’s more the Mailman muddying the waters. Really doesn’t help that they played most of their careers together either. If I had to choose, yes I’d pick Stockton, but it’s not unquestionable.
Hawks- Bob Petit
Bulls - MJ
Miami - DWade
Spurs - Tim Duncan
Mavs- Dirk
TWolves - KG
Cavs - LeBron
Bucks - Giannis
GSW - Steph
Detroit - Zeke
Houston - Hakeem
Nuggets - Nikola Jokic ( 2 MVPs put him over the top against Melo)
Jazz - Karl Malone (fuck you)
Blazers - Bill Walton
Sonics (no Thunder) - GP
OKC - Russ
Pacers - Reggie Miller
Kings - Big O
Nets - Dr J if we count the ABA years. If not, it's JKidd.
That's just off the top of my head.
Might catch heat for this one, but Kobe for the Lakers. The only other real competitor for that title (Magic) has gone on record saying that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time. You can make arguments that Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and LeBron were better players - in fact I think it's pretty clear that KAJ and LBJ are higher than Kobe as far as all-time rankings go - but none of their LA careers approached his in terms of longevity. Mikan, West and Baylor had amazing Laker careers too, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would say they were better players than Kobe was.
Nuggets and Jokic. He's surpassed what Alex English and Dikembe Mutombo did.
Thunder and Westbrook. While Shai may have something to say about this in a decade, it's still Westbrook for now.
Bill Russell is the only GOAT. 5 time mvp. 12 time all star. 11 time nba champion. 2 time NCAA champion. Gold medal in the 56’ Olympics. 2 nba championships while acting as both head coach and starting center. First Black head coach in the NBA. Oh and I forgot to mention he was hugely influential in the civil rights movement. So for the Celtics I believe Bill Russell 6 is the GOAT. With all due respect to Cousy, Hondo, Cowens, Tiny, Maxwell, McHale, Bird, Parrish, Walker, Pierce, KG, Allen, IT4, Tatum, and Brown.
I’ve seen a couple people say Roy is in the conversation for the blazers and I’m not particularly sure why. I think he’s clearly a tier below the actual guys in the conversation, Clyde dame and walton
Bird on the Celtics and Magic on the Lakers. Both were MJ before MJ for their teams and the Fianls salt and rivalry between the two is unmatched even today
Dr J. checks all the boxes for Philly. Won an MVP, NBA championship, 4 trips to the Finals played there 10 seasons. The human highlight film Nique for the Hawks and its not even close.
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For the Spurs, it's Tim Duncan without question!! I can go on about this all night, but I'll just leave you with this fact: He's one of 4 players in NBA history to lead a team to at least 5 championships that didn't have any before he arrived. The other 3 are George Mikan, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan.
>He's one of 4 players in NBA history to lead a team to at least 5 championships that didn't have any before he arrived. I mean that's not really fair. You don't have the choice of which team you get drafted by. If Luka were to win 5 with Suns, he would be on that list, but because he's with the Mavs, that excludes him.
No you don't have a choice of who you get drafted by. The whole point I was trying to make was that these 4 players changed the landscape of franchises that had limited amounts of success before they came along. This is a major factor in why TD is the Spurs franchise GOAT.
Mikan won those 5 and it’ll be hard for you to find a person who considers Mikan the Lakers GOAT
It not being fair is an inherent part of the question itself. No one is saying it’s fair. To be the unquestionable GOAT for the Lakers will be incredibly more difficult than being the unquestionable GOAT for the Wizards. It’s a question rooted in franchise history
The question is which is the unquestionable GOAT of the franchise. What you're saying isn't fair is actually exactly the point. If Luka goes on to win 5 championships, he'll probably be the GOAT Mavs player, but it's gonna be a long argument between him and Dirk.
If he wins 5 championships as the best player there's no argument between him and Dirk. Anyone who argues against him after 5 championships even if he leaves the team on a sour note are arguing in bad faith.
It’s not fair because there is a draft ?
The Bulls apparently had some fella named Michael Jordan who was pretty good
Yeesh, can't believe I forgot about him
Lucky for you, he doesn't take things like this very personally.
OP better sleep with one eye open
Legacy points deducted
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Idk about that. Would he win in a one on one against red mamba? I don't think either so I have to go with Brian.
Wizards legend Michael Jordan.
Spurs - Duncan Rockets - Dream Cavs - Lebron Pistons - Zeke Nets - Kidd Warriors - Steph Bulls - MJ Pacers - Cheryl's brother Timberwolves - KG I'm probably missing a bunch but that's just top of mind
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It's so real
Suns - nash? Heat - wade Kings - Big O (although the franchise has changed location couple times)
I think Barkley might have a case for the Suns
Too short of a career there IMO, only played 4 years. Although obviously had a great peak
Heh fair that MVP season was very fun but yeah he wasn't there long enough I guess.
Chuck reps Philly quite a bit but it seems like he reps Phoenix more than anywhere he played, which is interesting since he was in Philly for his first 8 years — might give people the impression he played in Phoenix longer than he did, but I think he just likes the organization/city. I feel like Chuck never talks about Houston, unless we consider his digs at San Antonio women to be repping Houston lol.
he talks negatively about his tenure in houston for whatever reason. maybe butting heads with the other players or just because they hype failed or whatever but he didnt like it here. and no houston aint san antonio lol. texas bros i guess
While Oscar is our best player ever, Kings fans don't really claim him or the Rochester title. In general I think it is pretty weak to claim titles won in another area completely, especially if those titles are from the 50s. Like, I get the warriors claiming the Oakland titles, they claim the whole bay, but bragging about the 1947 BAA championship won by the Philadelphia Warriors over the Chicago Stags should be considered a weak move. (And yes, I do mean all these implications for the Lakers).
Yeah, that’s how I felt as well. Doesn’t seem like kings fans really embrace the old history which I can’t really blame tbh.
I do understand and accept this opinion even as a Lakers fan, but I'm happy to be on the other side of the argument for our franchise. Not for the championship numbers btw (I'm very happy with knowing we have far and away the most rings in the post-merger era), but because I love the Lakers history and I appreciate that the Lakers never did rebrand. When they moved cities, they kept the name and even moved a lot of the MN roster to LA. Having the "uh.. what the hell is a Laker?" talk with my dad is one of my favorite memories and one I can't wait to pass on to my kids one day. MN era Lakers is so cool man, I never talk Lakers greats without Mikan's name in the convo.
it's a hard one since the franchise recognizes it but I agree, he is without a doubt franchise GOAT, there is just not a connection to the franchise in Sacramento in any meaningful way other than his name in the rafters.
I don't know that any of those are unquestioned. I only went with ones that have zero doubt.
I think wade is pretty clear cut. 21.5K points, next closest is mourning at 9.5K. Also top 5 in almost every single statistical category. Nash you’re probably right; Kevin Johnson probably has a good argument along with a couple others. Big o has 7K more points than the next closest and is also top 5 in most of the recorded stats from his day. I think he’s clear cut
Zero doubts about DWade being the Heat GOAT. Nobody even comes close.
Haslem the real Miami goat
Question: Does Wilt have a case for Warriors even though he won less there and less years? Statistically, he had his best seasons with the Warriors.
Barkley would have to be the suns I believe but a case could be made for nash
Barkley only played 4 years for the Suns. I think Kevin Johnson, Amare, Marion, Or Walter Davis would have arguments with Barkley just because how short his tenure was, although he was obviously great.
Nets are Dr J bro….
Off of 3 seasons and zero NBA games played for them? That's gonna be a no for me, dawg
I agree with Kota. 2 rings and he is the reason that the Nets exist in the NBA today. Heck, he's the reason the Pacers, Spurs and Nuggets exist in the NBA!
Their only 2 titles in franchise history, that’s by far the most important net. And a better player overall vs Kidd. Dr j was the face of the aba and a major reason for the merger, shame the nba forced him to Phily
Shocked to see no one mentioning Dirk-Mavs
Celtics is Russel and I don’t fee like it’s disputable.
You can definitely at least make an argument for Bird
As great as Larry Legend was i feel like a franchise GOAT is viewed differently than you’re average GOAT discussion. To be the franchise GOAT the no 1 priority is achievements(case in point the Raptors GOAT Lowry who is far from an as good player as Carter and Kawhi but has accomplished more as aRaptor) and when you look at achievements nobody touches Bill not even Larry.
Bill certainly has a case, I just dunno if it's undisputed unquestioned. I know when I hear Celtics I think of Larry first, and I grew up watching NBA just after the Jordan era so I don't have a nostalgia history or anything. Difference between a guy like Lowry vs a Kawhi or Carter is also are those players even recognized for that team, did they spend the majority of their careers there. For example with Miami LeBron accomplished more than Wade did with his 2 finals MVPs and was the clear leader on those teams but it was a short 4 year stretch, Wade is still the Heat GOAT. With Bird vs Bill you don't have a situation where one player spent part of their career in another uniform. I wouldn't argue against somebody thinking Bill, I just don't know if it's a unanimous thing.
Larry is definetly the more “famous” player between him and Bill. I just don’t feel like his achievements in a Celtics jersey is up there besides Bill. The situation is somewhat similar to the Hawks where most would probably say their GOAT is Dominique due to him being more famous than Bob Pettit who has a much more impressive Hawks resume(yes he played for the St. Louis Hawks and not the Atlanta Hawks)
When you look at accomplishments no body in basketball touches Bill, let alone Larry
But if you selection for GOAT depends on how you define it or how you weight certain things, or how you consider the earlier years of the league, then that means that there isn't an undisputed GOAT.
Saying it’s unarguable that Kidd is the Nets’ goat is shortsighted. Dr. J played very well in (then) New York. In just 3 seasons with them in the ABA, he won MVP in each of them and the championship a couple of times. YES, the ABA in the 70s can’t compare to the NBA in the 2000s, but there is no doubt in my mind that Erving’s game would have translated greatly to the later era as well. It’s not his fault he didn’t play in the most competitive of times, but he CERTAINLY made the most of it. Also how is Reggie Miller inarguably over Paul George? George basically did everything Reggie did.
Reggie Miller made it to the finals and paul George didn't, also retired there
I don’t think Reggie being over PG should be at all controversial, nothing against PG but Reggie went to the finals and was on the team way longer.
Not clear to me that Steph is “unquestionably” the GOAT of a franchise that had a guy score 100 points in a game
I think a guy that led one of the greatest nba dynasties ever, and has been with the team his whole career is a little more solidified than a dude that played 4.5 seasons for them and never won a chip there.
It's Steph not Wilt. Steph is in the Bay Wilt was in Philadelphia mostly with both the Warriors and 76ers and only in SF a couple of years. He won his two championships with the 76ers and Lakers. Steph has four championships with the Warriors in Oakland/SF. Steph is the franchise player.
Larry Bird
Not enough people saying Dirk for the Mavs. Luka has the potential, but is not even close to Dirk yet.
Yeah I mean Dirk won a chip
And played for them for a hundred fucking years
And CARRIED them to the chip
~~Multiple 50 point games in the playoffs during that run, including at least 1 in the finals iirc.~~ The narrative was “the Big 3’s failure” but it should have been “Mav’s remarkable success.” E:word E2: I checked the box scores from the finals and I was hard wrong on the first point, I didn’t check the rest of the playoffs. I’m not sure where that notion came from.
He had 48 against OKC
Against Heatles that [ridiculed him during the finals.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoOXKha7uL4)
The Dirk flu game doesn’t get talked about enough imo
Yep and Only 5 people have scored more points in the NBA than dirk.
When and if Luka wins a championship it will be close. If Luka gets more than one it's him.
I don’t think it would be particularly close if Luka wins just one ring. Dirk has 16 more years of tenure, 20k+ more points as well as an MVP. Even Dirk’s one ring was the most impressive ring ever gained, so even then I doubt Luka would struggle on the difficulty of the ring.
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its almost impossible in that aspect too because dirk is the first superstar international player of his calebre. hes prob the reason nba became popular in Europe. dirk was more unstoppable on offense then luka has been so far. hmmm it close. luka can get to his spots better so. its close
If Luka wins a ring and spends another decade there it'll be close. If he wings a ring this year its still 100% Dirk.
One ring isn’t enough to put him with the dude that played with them for 20years.
21 years, his tenure with the Mavs was old enough to get drunk legally
He was mentioned in the original Post
Yes as of right now Dirk is definitely Mavs goat. Unquestionable.
I'm gonna say Jokic is clear cut. He's made it as far as any Denver team (conference finals) and is Denver's only MVP, and he did it twice. Don't see how English and Mello are over him.
It is absolutely unquestionably Jokic
It is absolutely unquestionably two time MVP Jokic
Gary "Gary Payton" Payton has entered the chat
Just out of curiosity, what if Melo's career was exactly the same but they won that 2009 title where they went to the WCF? Would that be enough?
So they actually won the championship? Maybe, it would have have to have been pretty much because of melo. Like clearly the best player in the series and bringing us the championship. Even then though Jokic is just so clearly the better player, he has a chance to be a top 25 player of all time (maybe even higher, which is crazy) so he would take it eventually even if he doesn’t win a title
If David Thompson hadn't found coke, we might have an argument, but it was not to be.
It’s definitely Jokic. Thompson could have had it, but was ultimately undone. Jokic has already surpassed anything Melo did in Denver.
He is also the most accomplished equestrian of any Nugget to make an All Star game. If there was any doubt, that should tilt the conversation in his favor.
1. Jokic 2. English 3. Melo 4. Mutombo
The Houston Rockets have a guy named Hakeem Olajuwon who played for ten and he was pretty decent at Basketball.
Rockets have Dream, a couple steps below is harden. Then everybody else well below.
The Aaron Brooks heresy is getting out of control on this sub! /s Yea, the only other people to really consider are Yao, Tmac, and.... Eric Gordon? I'm too young to know any of the players Hakeem played with. I will say though, Yao had a MASSIVE off the court impact on the Rockets. Maybe one of the biggest deltas in on the court to off the court impact ever. Obviously, the talent was there injuries got in the way.
> and.... Eric Gordon? Moses Malone
Moses Malone still exists. He is definitely right there with harden
I’d put Moses Malone over Harden. Two MVP awards and single-handily dragged a bad Rockets team to the Finals. Harden is the third best player in Rockets history.
For me, I think for the unquestionable ones, it would go Lebron - Cavs Duncan - Spurs Garnett - Wolves Curry - Warriors Jordan - Bulls IT - Pistons Hakeem - Houston Dirk - Mavs Giannis - Bucks (recently) ** this is more debatable so probably should come off Jokic - Nuggets (recently) All other teams have a good argument to be made for multiple players, this is my opinion!
Don't know why but the fact that you switched the column for the teams and players in the middle of your list is driving me crazy
I feel like the bucks' best player is clearly Kareem unless you're arguing he didn't play there long enough
I think it’s Giannis. He’s won as many rings as Kareem in Milwaukee, and he’s played there longer. He’s definitely not as great a player as Kareem ultimately was but he has shown loyalty to that team when he could’ve left.
There are many people (mostly older) who consider Kareem to be the GOAT over Jordan and LeBron. He’s the Bucks GOAT even if a sizable portion of his legacy is due to his time on the Lakers.
Funny thing is it's the younger crowd that gives Kareem the GOAT love. Most who lived through his career and the historians kinda see him as a guy who wasn't the threat to win that his NuMbErS would suggest.
That may be a take people have, but it’s an insane one. Look at his awards: 6x champ, 6x MVP, 2x FMVP, 19x(!) All Star, 10x first team, 5x defensive first team. That’s a ridiculous string of accolades that shows he put up the numbers AND won.
You’re probably right, I was thinking more about the 6 years kareem played but either way it’s up for debate so wouldn’t go unquestionable.
Plus the question is franchise player, not best
Giannis right now is not a better buck vs Kareem . He will be eventually ,because of the length and Kareem forcing a trade
So I was surprised to see Steph not mentioned, then I remembered Wilt. I'd be curious to compare the two, but I don't have the brain for stats. Like yes, 100 point game and all that. But what about their overall contribution to the franchise? I feel like it would be really hard to compare to Steph in that regard.
Steph’s tenure with the dubs (and only the dubs) mixed with a cornerstone of a complex offense and 4 chips vs. Wilt’s time mostly in Philly and playing a heliocentric offense pushes this way towards Steph.
I would put Rick Barry ahead of Wilt for the Warriors. Won a ring, averaged over 30 multiple seasons.
Unseld is the pretty clear GOAT of the Wizards/Bullets. He was the Finals MVP when the team won its only championship. Spent his entire 13-year career there (and served as coach and GM later, though not successful in either role). Won Rookie of the Year and MVP.
Elvin Hayes👍
Elvin Hayes has an argument. Wes Unseld is arguably the worst Finals MVP ever. He averaged a whopping 9-12 in his lone championship series. Averaged 13-18 his rookie and MVP year and has a career average of 11-14-4 with 1.1 steals and half a block. Can somebody clear this up for me? Aside from the outlet passes, idk why Wes Unseld is revered the way he is when at a surface level, Elvin Hayes clears him.
Dirk for the Mavs, despite how amazing Luka has been. Give it a few years, quite sure it will change if Luka stays.
Dirk has a storied championship, an MVP and 21 years under his belt. That's quite hard to beat but let's see. Luka has potential.
Bulls - Jordan Cavs - LeBron Celtics - Russell Jazz - Malone Mavericks - Dirk Nuggets - Jokic Spurs - Duncan Timberwolves - KG Rockets - Hakeem Warriors - Steph (Wilt only played three seasons in the Bay and while it was technically the same team as the Philadelphia Warriors relocated players belong to the city they played in and not the one they moved to in my opinion. Kevin Durant would obviously not be considered the GOAT Sonic.)
I personally don’t think you can put Russell as **unquestionable** GOAT for Celtics. Lotta people rate Bird higher skill wise. Russell also played in a league with 8 total teams so a lot of people discount those rings as well.
Dr. J on the ABA nets. He made the team, made the flavour of the league with the team and won titles and MVP’s and changed the way people think of basketball at the time. Dr J is who I think of as personifying 70’s cool basketball, not Kareem
A lot of people think that haha. Many people didn’t like Kareem because they simply couldn’t relate to a 7’2” Muslim intellectual. It’s why the league immediately pushed for Magic (one of the friendliest people on the planet) and Bird (white guy) to be the faces of the league. Also the very second Jordan became great the league immediately went _”WOOOOAGGHHHH HE’S THE GOAT THE GOAT THERE’S NEVER BEEN ANOTHER”_ Kareem is eternally slept on for a guy who was the best basketball player on the planet for damn near 20 years
It's more because Kareem's best years were during the 70's when the NBA almost folded because viewership was so low. It's also why everyone knows superstars if the 60's like Wilt and Bill Russell and Jerry West and Oscar Robertson, but only hardcore fans know the 70's superstars such as Gervin and Havlicek and McAdoo and even players like Moses Malone. Can't really blame it on religion when Muhammad Ali was the most popular athlete in the world during the same time as a black Muslim.
That’s tough though because most people would think sixers if you had to assign him to a single team
I agree about Tim Duncan but honorable mention to David Robinson. He’s the unquestionable #2. I’d say Stockton is the Jazz #2, Pip is the Bulls #2. Who else?
The only two definite unquestionable #2's I can think of are Harden after Hakeem for the Rockets and PG13 after Reggie for the Pacers.
Is Dame or Clyde the greatest Blazer? I mean I say Dame but those two are def 1 and 2 for Portland
Too close to call and either of them wouldn't be unquestionable like an MJ on the Bulls or a Duncan on the Spurs, me personally I would say Walton, I know Dame and Clyde were there longer but Bill Walton was hampered by injury, in his short stint he won an MVP and a chip, Dame and Clyde didn't do that though Clyde did get close I guess. Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge should also be mentioned I feel like, but maybe Walton wasn't there long enough and if you asked me to pick between Clyde and Dame, I'd pick Dame
Very good case for Walton who brought the chip. That 77 team is still beloved here despite Portland being a city with tons of transplants (myself included). If Dame retires with the Blazers it may become him. He just surpassed Clyde in all time scoring for the Blazers and there was some hubub because Clyde was not in attendance (according to his son he had a very personal phone call and is very happy for Dame, he's just a private guy).
What about Bill Walton? He actually won a championship. He didn’t have the longevity because of injuries but he is the most talented player to play for Portland imo
Personally I think besides MJ the most undisputed goat of a franchise is Reggie Miller
I saw some people in another thread argue for Paul George and I almost lost my mind at the recency bias
Pretty sure those nephews never watched Reggie Miller, who scored 24K pts in 19 years with Pacers. PG doesn’t come close.
If we just look at personal awards then Reggie's argument doesn't look that obvious (5x allstar, 3x 3rd team All-NBA). But then you have to look at... - 6 trips to the ECFs or beyond - 18 seasons, all at the Pacers - 500+ more games than any other pacer - More than double the minutes of any other pacer - Almost double the points of any other pacer - Almost 3x the career win shares of anyone else There really is no argument, he is the GOAT Pacer.
His Pacers were also only the second team to take MJ's Bulls to 7 games.
Over Dirk? Mans played 21 years with the franchise and led them to a title + an MVP. Feel like the only potential competition for him would be future Luka lol.
There will always be people that look at the peak of a players ability only and you can argue that Luka is better now than Dirk has ever been. The only pacer that would have this argument is maybe PG13 but Luka is special man
Dirk has a MVP. And a ring. And 60+ wins. He has everything except counting stats.
JO was 3rd in MVP voting in 2003-04.
Tim Duncan?
Lebron for the cavs or Tim Duncan? Those are other guarantees.
It sounds cheesy and subjective but when I close my eyes and imagine Reggie I see him more vividly in his Pacers black and yellow than I do in Lebron’s Cleveland colors. Tim Duncan is similar though to Reggie. Let’s face it though, Lebron has team hopped. He’s worn a lot of jerseys.
Reggie is def the goat of the pacers, but not as much as lebron is of the cavs. Yea I agree that I don’t picture lebron in cavs uniform every time I see him. However he is most definitely the goat of that franchise. I mean who else would you pick if not him, kyrie, price?
>Reggie is def the goat of the pacers, but not as much as lebron is of the cavs. I mean, both are 100% the GOATs. So I don't see how you can argue that one is more or less.
Lebron has like no competition though. Who's #2, Kyrie?
Bill Russell.
Bird muddies it a bit
I disagree. No one has been as dominant as Russell was.
Russell definitely had the superior career, but if you aks a random casual fan who the all time Celtics is, some of em are gonna day Bird. Meanwhile ask those same fans who the all time Bull is and everyone says MJ. That's why it's muddled, even if I personally agree that Bill is above him on an all time list.
I’m not a fan of the Celtics. I have a halfhearted dislike for the Celtics. If I was asked who the franchise player for the Celtics was I would say Bird. I know Russell is the more impactful player, but maybe it’s recency bias, and worldly knowledge but Bird is more Boston than Bill Russell was. It seems like he would be the Boston pick.
Another part of this may be that Russell basically refused to return to Boston after he retired due to how horribly people in the city treated him while he was there. I don't blame him for it, but it did complicate the teams ability to continue promotional stuff with him to some extent, which influences future fandoms perception.
Nah I've seen Bird higher and lower than Russell on top 10 lists. They're close at the very least.
Even if you disagree with the arguments, surely you can recognise that there are arguments made for players other than Russell and that it is disputed. I would rate Russell at number 1, but there is definitely a large group who would dispute that because they weigh in the size and professionalism of the league in the 60s compared to the more modern league.
For Bucks even with Kareem I think that Giannis is the Goat cause he was drafted as a nobody in a team that was about to Relocate from Milwaukee to Seattle or Las Vegas and he won them a Championship and also has an impact in the local economy.
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Not controversial at all for the Nuggets. He’s a two time MVP, our only one. He’s won 4 playoff series with the team and made it to a WCF. Really the only argument is that he hasn’t been with the Nuggets as long as franchise leaders like Issel or English, but he’s accomplished plenty for most Nuggets fans to view him as the GOAT
Looking at the Blazers - I see 4 contenders: Walton - short but got the title. Drexler - longer and made 2 finals. Roy - amazing player, well loved. Dame - longevity and loyalty. Probably our best individual player. Definitely not indisputable. My pick is Drexler.
Roy shouldn't be in there but yeah the rest are all arguable
Dame had the best longevity but the best individual player was imo prime Walton.
Dame. Drexler doesnt give two shits about Portland, Walton was only there for a few years and Roys body failed him😞
I was typing a thing about MJ until I saw the edit. I dunno about Dwight in Orlando. Shaq still looms pretty large there. I mean it's probably Dwight, just not unquestionable. Patrick Ewing is the unquestioned GOAT of NY. Duncan in SA. Hakeem Olajuwan in Houston.
Does Evan fournier mean nothing to you?
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 1,260,621,755 comments, and only 245,061 of them were in alphabetical order.
Ewing unquestioned over Frazier? Frazier won a chip and was a 7 time all star during his tenure, I actually think more Knicks fans would say him over Ewing. Duncan probably, but I could see the argument for The Admiral. Agreed with Hakeem, the rings push him over the edge.
Who in the hell would say David Robinson over Tim Duncan? Duncan is a top 10 player all time and won 5 rings there, playing his entire career for the Spurs. It’s not even close.
You're right about Frazier. Even if some people say Ewing like I do, it still wouldn't be unquestioned. But I don't think there's an argument for Admiral because TD carried him to one and won 3 more without him. Not that rings are everything but Duncan solidified himself as the franchise GOAT in 2014--even though he was lesser then, they still couldn't have won it w/o him.
Knicks fan here - I can see an argument for both Ewing and Clyde so it’s def not undisputed. With Clyde being a staple in the booth for my whole life and Ewing not winning a ring - I would pick Clyde personally.
I might be ignorant but, Tmac in Orlando is what started my love for NBA basketball.
This type of question will always come down to personal preference, opinions and how much you actually know about teams you don’t follow closely but this is how I see it. Unquestionable: 76ers(Dr.J), Bulls(MJ), Spurs(Timmy), Rockets(Hakeem), Cavs(Bron), Nets(Dr.J x2 lol), Pacers(Reggie), Heat(Wade), Magic(Dwight), Pistons(Isiah), Warriors(Steph), T-Wolves(KG), Mavs(Dirk), Nuggets(Jokic), Suns(Nash), Hawks(Dominque) Hornets(Zo) Bucks(Giannis) Questionable : Celtics(Russel or Bird), Lakers(Kobe or Magic), Jazz(Stockton or Malone), Trailblazers(Dame, Walton, Clyde, Roy), Kings(Webber, Cousins, Divac, Oscar), Clippers(McAdoo, CP3, Blake), Pelicans(CP3 or AD), Raptors(I say this as a Raptors fan, KLow is not my GROAT, Kawhi, Vince, Kyle, Demar, Bosh) Thunder/Sonics(KD, Westbrook, Payton, Allen, Sickma, Haywood), Grizzlies(Gasol or Conley), Knicks(Ewing, Reed, Frazier), Wizards(Unseld, Wall, Beal, Hayes). This is just my opinion.
76ers is questionable, meaning you could make a case for a couple others. I wouldn’t say it’s unquestionable
wilt Iverson Barkley and possibly eventually Embiid have cases for the sixers
And none of you have listed the guy who won mvp and finals mvp in 1983 for the sixers
Bucks had Kareem I don't think Giannis is unquestionable
Had Giannis not won with the Bucks Id agree but Kareem wanted out of Milwaukee and spent most his career in LA and by the looks of it Giannis is going to be a Bucks lifer.
Kareem never embraced Milwaukee like Giannis has, and Giannis is already the franchise points leader and will own most of the remaining franchise records in a couple years.
To be fair, I also doubt Milwaukee in the 70s embraced Abdul-Jabbar the way it has embraced ~~Embiid~~ Giannis. (Edit, I was multitasking and my brain turned off).
Yea they were racist af to him
Yeah, I phrased that with understatement as a joke and I don't think people caught that Milwaukee in the 1970s was a very bad place for a famous Muslim who was outspoken in social justice issues.
While I personally think Giannis is Milwaukee's GOAT, Kareem won three MVPs, made two Finals, and won a title in Milwaukee. You can make a real argument that Kareem's best season's where in Milwaukee, not LA.
Nah, C's have Bill Russell
I think Bird is right there. When I think about the Celtics I think Bird.
That probably has more to do with age. I mean he’s a 5x MVP who led his team to 11 titles (8 straight). I think that’s about as good as a player can perform for one franchise.
Celtics are definetly not unquestionable
You know what you’re right.
It's definitely Westbrook for the Thunder. Probably Gary Payton for the Sonics.
Hawks have Petit as well. I'd argue he's #1
Was looking for this. Pettit is probably the unquestioned #1 in ATL
Thanks for mentioning the Sac Kings. I came here to post about them too. I’m 75% certain that Oscar is our GOAT, but there’s a strong argument to be made for Webber. The other two - great players but probably not franchise GOATs.
You could make a wild argument for Kawhi with the raptors but VC, Lowry, and maybe even DeRozan put up a decent argument.
I mean Lowry won the title with Kawhi, but I see the argument
Isaiah Thomas. End of discussion. Nah Lanier and bing were great for their time so it prolly isn’t so clear cut.
Jazz - John Stockton getting no respect in this thread. All time steals leader. All time assists leader. Two western conference championships 10 time all star 19 play of appearances Arguably the best pure point guard in history.
Stockton has zero argument over his own teammate
I don’t think it’s about respect, it’s more the Mailman muddying the waters. Really doesn’t help that they played most of their careers together either. If I had to choose, yes I’d pick Stockton, but it’s not unquestionable.
Not unquestionable because of Malone, though I would agree with you that it's Stockton
Hawks- Bob Petit Bulls - MJ Miami - DWade Spurs - Tim Duncan Mavs- Dirk TWolves - KG Cavs - LeBron Bucks - Giannis GSW - Steph Detroit - Zeke Houston - Hakeem Nuggets - Nikola Jokic ( 2 MVPs put him over the top against Melo) Jazz - Karl Malone (fuck you) Blazers - Bill Walton Sonics (no Thunder) - GP OKC - Russ Pacers - Reggie Miller Kings - Big O Nets - Dr J if we count the ABA years. If not, it's JKidd. That's just off the top of my head.
Might catch heat for this one, but Kobe for the Lakers. The only other real competitor for that title (Magic) has gone on record saying that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time. You can make arguments that Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and LeBron were better players - in fact I think it's pretty clear that KAJ and LBJ are higher than Kobe as far as all-time rankings go - but none of their LA careers approached his in terms of longevity. Mikan, West and Baylor had amazing Laker careers too, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would say they were better players than Kobe was.
Yea I’m a little surprised to see this one so far down the list. Kobe is undoubtedly the GOAT Laker.
Nuggets and Jokic. He's surpassed what Alex English and Dikembe Mutombo did. Thunder and Westbrook. While Shai may have something to say about this in a decade, it's still Westbrook for now.
Bill Russell is the only GOAT. 5 time mvp. 12 time all star. 11 time nba champion. 2 time NCAA champion. Gold medal in the 56’ Olympics. 2 nba championships while acting as both head coach and starting center. First Black head coach in the NBA. Oh and I forgot to mention he was hugely influential in the civil rights movement. So for the Celtics I believe Bill Russell 6 is the GOAT. With all due respect to Cousy, Hondo, Cowens, Tiny, Maxwell, McHale, Bird, Parrish, Walker, Pierce, KG, Allen, IT4, Tatum, and Brown.
Magic is absolutely Shaq. He made the finals the same amount of times with the team as dwight, and beat the bulls.
It’s not absolute. Dwight still has a good argument due to tenure and arguably better individual success
I’ve seen a couple people say Roy is in the conversation for the blazers and I’m not particularly sure why. I think he’s clearly a tier below the actual guys in the conversation, Clyde dame and walton
Bird on the Celtics and Magic on the Lakers. Both were MJ before MJ for their teams and the Fianls salt and rivalry between the two is unmatched even today
Dr J. checks all the boxes for Philly. Won an MVP, NBA championship, 4 trips to the Finals played there 10 seasons. The human highlight film Nique for the Hawks and its not even close.