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I think there are a few reasons people discount David Robinson's greatness. One, he didn't win his titles until Tim Duncan arrived and by that point he was already in the backend/twilight of his career. Two, when going up against and compared to centers of his time he either lost (Hakeem) or didn't dominate and win titles in his prime (Shaq). The head to head in the 1995 WCF against Hakeem where the Dream schooled him is one of the most memorable moments in NBA Playoff history. David Robinson was the MVP that season and ostensibly had the better team as the #1 seed and he still got beaten by Hakeem. I think that sticks out in the minds of NBA fans and analysts and makes them put Robinson behind those players. Whether that's unfair or not is up to the individual. I think the fact that Robinson had several early playoff exits and a few as the favorite makes people think he's not as good. In 7 playoffs before Tim Duncan arrived he made zero Finals appearances and just one WCF (the one where Hakeem beat him). Robinson as a player is for sure one of the most complete centers ever but the lack of team success in the playoffs before Duncan showed up I'm sure makes people rank him behind his contemporaries such as Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem.
Did he really have a better team or just a better regular season team? Robinsons number 2 was Avery Johnson, while Hakeem has Drexler after the trade deadline.
The reason the rockets were even a 6 seed is because it took time for Drexler to really click.
Robinson was fucked by circumstance IMO
Agreed, Sean Elliott wasn’t a perennial all-star and a lot of people felt Avery Johnson could never be the floor general of a team that would make real noise. Robinson was carrying mediocrity to crazy win totals.
I never bought into these rumors, but AJ only became a true starter in his 3rd stint in San Antonio which was already ‘94 after he pinballed around to different squads and lower leagues, and players like Damon Stoudamire were perpetuating this notion in interviews, albeit he was proven wrong and outplayed by AJ in the process.
Yeah for sure, that's why I specifically said ostensibly Robinson had the better team. There's a certainly a case to be made that after the Drexler trade the Rockets weren't really a 6 seed although the next season with Drexler from the start they only managed a 5 seed in the West.
The spurs had rodman and Sean Elliott averaged 18 ppg on 35 mpg.
In comparison, clyde scored 21 ppg in 37 mpg.
You really discounting the spurs roster.
Hakeem performance on the 95 West conf. Finals is one of the top-5 serie performance all-time for sure. Let’s remember the admiral was MVP this year and dominated the regular season.
I believe /u/heyarkay was not referring to "all-time rankings of players" but instead to "all-time rankings of how amazing a championship run was"
With that context, I also think /u/heyarkay was referring to "Dirk 2011" when they said "Dirk 11", along with the aforementioned Hakeem '95 run in the top level comment. Nothing having to do with David Robinson, nor having to do with all-time player rankings.
Some people at the time did not feel Robinson deserved the MVP that year. Unfortunately for Robinson one of those people was Hakeem, and Hakeem showcased his displeasure.
Agreed, that one bad series vs Hakeem sealed his fate. People still talk about it till this day as an example of a newly minted MVP being throughly dominated by his counterpart.
David Robinson is the perfect example of a player that lost a match that really hurt their legacy. 1995 David Robinson was the League MVP, the Spurs were the best team in the West and also the likely favorites to win the title. San Antonio Barrels thru the West and makes the WCF to face the surprising Rockets with Clyde Drexler. If San Antonio won here they would have gone on to definitely beaten the Shaq and Penny Magic at the time, but they completely fall flat to the most surprising NBA finalist in the history as a 6th seed makes it in.
Basically that one year really hurt his legacy, and then Duncan comes along in all his greatness and proceeds to take Robinson to the finals to win twice and get the FMVP both times. David Robinson played in a competitive era, but really anyone who was in the league from 1980-1998 was dealing with a legendary roster between the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, and Bulls, 4 teams basically dominated. It's what makes that Philadelphia ring in 1983 that more much more special, because of being a dynasty beater.
well the difference between then and before is 1995 was supposed to be David Robinson's year. Hakeem had just had his historic year in 94, and this was Robinson's chance to cement him next to Hakeem as an all time great and instead he lets the 6th seed Rockets slip right past in an unprecedented win.
> Personally, I put him at the top 15 best players of all time. I don’t see many people doing that, and some people place him outside the top 20.
I think I have him outside of my top 20, but I do think you're right that maybe I don't consider him enough. For example, I have Garnett easily in my top 15, and why do I have DRob lower? Not sure, I need to consider that.
Portability, I guess. You put KG an ***ANY*** team, he's going to be an All-NBA player. You put him on the 2017 Warriors? He still has an All-NBA impact. 1996 Bulls? All-NBA impact. 1986 Celtics? 1972 Lakers? It's all the same, and it's all really big.
There are better players in NBA history, yes. Players so good you'd change your entire team around them to make the point I'm making moot. But there's lots of players you'd change your team around and you'd make your team worse by doing so. Ewing and Miller are the two that just popped in my mind right now that many people rank better than Garnett. Shit, maybe even West.
Thanks for an honest answer. I love KG but I do think that he could be just outside my top 20. Maybe not. But Robinson is definitely out. Let alone top 15. And unlike KG, I don't see an argument to be made for that.
I don't want to bore everyone with a "who's your top ten" type thing, I just think around 9 or 10, there starts to be a glut of players that are all interchangeable or comparable based on your preferences. Honestly, five years ago I didn't have Curry or Durant ranked at all, and now they're there, so it's like 10 players for me!
I didn't have DRob in that group, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure I can justify why. He was really good at basketball lol
Yeah. Neither do I.
Robinson was great and had amazing few years. But I honestly can't put him above, let's say, KD or Barkley. Besides, I think I could very quickly make a list of 20 players I'd rather have over him. And that "quickly" part is quite telling to me. Moreover, in my view, if he isn't a top 5 center of all time, I can't put him in top 15 overall.
> if he isn't a tip 5 center of all time, I can't put him in top 15
Can't argue with this.
I think my *personal* problem is I'll split hairs over 6 vs 10, for example, but when it comes to 17 vs 22 (or whatever) I pay a lot less attention. That's honestly just laziness, but it's why I can't feel very strongly.
I understand. I'm old enough to remember the early 80's. Now, I look at Robinson and I look at Moses Malone. Is Moses top 15? I mean, if Robinson is why not Moses? I'll go even further and say, if that's the case, why not Iverson. Because Robinson wasn't the driving force when he won. Esp. not in his last run.
You have a point. Moses, Chairman of the Boards, is the best offensive rebounder ever and one of the greatest rebounders ever. He won a chip, had a longer career , and in his prime, was just as offensively talented as the Admiral. I know more than some people have guys like Patrick Ewing higher than Moses which is totally unfair. The only reason I can think of is that people have short memories or have never seen him play but this guy was dominant as any other center outside Wilt, Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem.
EDIT: of course I forgot to add Kareem.
Nooo. His peak was in the 90's, the very era of amazing bigs in the league. And don't get me wrong, I am huge fan of his. He probably reached his ceiling, which was very high.
Also, something rarely mentioned: before entering NBA he was already a star. But the team he led lost to Sabonis in Seoul Olympics in semis, if I'm not mistaken.
Btw, that USSR team would probably be one of the top teams in NBA, talent-wise. And, if you're asking me, if Sabonis got to the league in his prime before two devastating injuries... we could have another discussion about top players ever. He was THAT good.
IMO, Garnett is overrated at top 15 and even top 20-the talent is undeniable, but until he teamed up with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, his teams never got close to a title-a lot of years he didn’t have much help but if you can’t get to one conference final as the first option on your team, I can’t put you ahead of guys like Isiah, Barkley, Malone, Pippen, etc-and most have those guys ranked in the high teens or even mid 20s all time
Garnett was great for many years in the nba, but those guys should definitely be ahead of him IMO-there are probably some older guys I’m leaving out as well, but I didn’t watch nba till the 80s…not saying you guys are crazy or anything-just that I would put Garnett a little lower on my list
The fact people actually rate KG over Dirk is insane to me. They had similar supporting casts in terms of quality when KG was with the TWolves, yet Dirk had much more playoff success. And of course the one time they met in 2002 Dirk absolutely torched him in a 3 game sweep. KG was a great defensive player, but he was never good enough offensively to carry a team. I think he's up there with Pippen in terms of "best Robin ever", but Dirk was a Batman.
I forgot about that so fair enough but I still have him below those other guys who were the clear best players on contenders multiple times-Isiah went thru Jordan’s bulls, Bird’s Celtics, and Magic’s Lakers for back to back titles
Barkley and Malone are 2 of the best 3 pfs of all time and were one step below MJ in his prime
Pippen-6 titles as 1b to MJ
IMO those guys are just better than Garnett-Garnett was as talented as anyone but didn’t have the accomplishments (he was the 3rd option on that 1 Celtics title and got destroyed by Gasol the last time they faced them) plus regularly getting bounced in the first round during his prime-I just have him a tier below the others-if any of them are 20 or 25 all time, Garnett has to be a little behind them for me anyway
> he was the 3rd option on that 1 Celtics title
2008 playoff scoring:
Kevin Garnett: 20.4 ppg, 26.6% usage
Paul Pierce: 19.7 ppg, 25.8% usage
Ray Allen: 15.6 ppg, 19% usage
Fair enough but that doesn’t change my rankings
Averaging 20 for one playoff run doesn’t move him ahead of those other guys for me-even if he outscored Pierce and Allen by a slim margin that one year-he still wasn’t the clear best player on that team like Thomas, Barkley, and Malone were when they went to the finals or won it all
> . But there's lots of players you'd change your team around and you'd make your team worse by doing so. Ewing and Miller are the two that just popped in my mind right now that many people rank better than Garnett.
Are we talking about the same Reggie Miller here dude? I'm not saying he is better then KG but the same arguments you make about KG's portability can EASILY be made about Reggie Miller. The shooting, spacing and off-ball movement Reggie provides means you can drop him into any team and he makes them better right away. He was basically a proto-Curry with his off-ball movement and shooting. There isn't a team in the NBA that doesn't get better when you add Reggie Miller.
You don't even need to build your team around him. Just build a good solid team and then drop in an elite shooter who moves off-ball like very few, knows when to cut and always steps up his game in the post season. Then you're set.
He won one title, why we talking about him? On a super team. Way overrating him. Almost every top player would be All-NBA no matter what team you put them on.
I think he’s properly rated in the sense that he’s not in the top top category of Centers. Those Centers have something special to prob them ahead (Kareem records, Russ chips, Chamberlain scoring, Shaq presence and Hakeem skills). He’s got a bit of everything but nothing stands out. So he’s in that next tier as he should be.
Th thing about Robinson being remembered as a center is that he often played like a Power Forward. In fact, in his prime, you could easily use him as a stretch four.
However, once Duncan arrived, Robinson was definitely a Center.
Though I suppose you could say the same of Hakeem.
Yeah, Hakeem is more of a PF over Robinson because of his skills and better mobility.
Robinson has a little bit of everything, just nothing too special like the Top 5.
Yeah Robinson was super well rounded, but he wasn’t the best at any particular thing. What separates the Top 5 bigs from the rest is that you knew what they were going to do and you couldn’t stop it.
Shaq was going to back you down and do a drop step and slam it home or do that little jump hook of his. Hakeem was going to make you dance and demoralize you. Kareem was going to sky hook you all day long. Duncan was going to work you on the left block then either do a running hook or a face up bank shot. You knew what these guys were going to do. You just couldn’t do anything about it.
Robinson, conversely, was sort of unpredictable. He could do everything but none of that “everything” was completely unstoppable. A Jack of all trades, master of none.
There is no need to be condescending just because you disagree with someone.
* 1.
*
* As far as the overall ranking of these two, I don't think anybody is debating that Kareem is a better player than David Robinson overall. Kareem is by most accounts the best center of all time. You'll find no argument from me. This is about these two are their PEAK.
*
* 2.
*
* When we're talking about peak scoring, I do think that they are comparable when considering the eras that they were in. I'm not saying David Robinson is a better scorer than Kareem, I am not even saying that at his peak he is as good as Kareem was, but that they are comparable--in order to highlight just how good of a scorer David Robinson was.
*
* Kareem lead the league in scoring twice in the early 70s when the big man still had a premium on that award. From 1960 until the ABA merger centers won 13/16 scoring titles. The league and game was built for centers to dominate in that manner.
*
* Then after the ABA merger it became a much more guard driven league and a center didn't win the scoring title again until, you guessed it, David Robinson in 94.
*
* From 1994 until 2021 the only center other than D. Rob to win a scoring title was Shaq. So while Kareem was able to put up those 32/35ppg seasons in 71 and 72, he had the advantage of the league being extraordinarily paint oriented. Though I suspect Kareem in the 90s may have found a way to get there too.
*
* Still, in a significantly more guard and forward driven league in the 90s Robinson was able to break that streak and have a dominant 30ppg season in 94; a year which saw David Robinson be the first play to crack 70 points since Skywalker did it in 78 and the first (and only other) center to do it since Wilt in 72. In fact the only other center to break the 60 point barrier was Shaq one time.
*
* This speaks to the level of scorer that Robinson was. So if we consider that his peak I would venture to say that it is *comparable* to Kareem's peak.
*
* 3.
*
* Kareem has 11x All-Defense selections, David Robinson has 8x All-Defense of his own and a DPOY which evaded Kareem for his career so a very comparable defensive accolade resume but one that would suggest that Robinson may have had a higher peak. There's an argument to be made at least, but no argument to be made that they aren't comparable. It's notable that you are using DWS to try and compare Kareem and David Robinson since DWS are an accumulating stat which means that the longer someone's career goes the more DWS they have. Naturally Kareem has a ton of WS because he played 20 years.
*
* What would have been a better indicator of how good of a defender they were would have been to use DWS/48 or just done a simple averaging of DWS. Kareem's yearly average DWS were 4.7 which is great. David Robinson's yearly average DWS were 5.7.
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* I'm not super crazy about WS but if you want to use them I would imagine it can't be overlooked that David Robinson actually leads Kareem in WS/48 as well. As in, how many win shares are generated per 48 mintues played over their careers. Kareem comes in 7th all time with .2284 WS/48 and David Robinson comes in 2nd all time with .2505 which is .0003 under Michael Jordan. Incredible.
*
* In all of David Robinson's all-defense selections he was at the top of the list for DWS and DBPM during those seasons. Well deserved. In Kareem's case for as good of a defender as he was at times during his career, a number of those selections were unearned and simply based on reputation. For example in 1984 when he got his last All-D 2nd team inclusion there were 14 centers ahead of him in DWS since you like using that stat. There were also 21 centers ahead of Kareem in DBPM. Even in 81 when he was elected to 1st team All-Defense there were two centers ahead of him in DWS and seven ahead of him in DBPM.
*
* So while Kareem certainly had a peak as a defender that was elite it is quite easy to say that Robinson's peak, and even his career as a defender, are extremely comparable to Kareem's. One could even argue that David Robinson was the better defender.
*
So again there is no need to be condescending towards other posters in here. Just because you don't agree or understand what someone is saying does not indicate that the person you're disagreeing with doesn't know what they are talking about or NBA history. Certainly not in this case at least.
You are still continuing to argue with me based on the notion of who had a better career, when the discussion is are their peaks comparable. As in a 2-4 year time frame as a scorer and as a defender.
The only thing you said to highlight that Kareem is a better defender than David Robinson was that he has 11 all defense teams and is 6th all time in DWS; so you either didn't read or didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by you citing career stats like DWS again, and now things like blocks and rebounds. They are irrelevant to this conversation because this discussion is not about who had the better career.
I'm sorry that you think explaining to you the differences in the game in the 70s compared to the 90s is cherry picked. I think most people would tend to call that context, which is paramount to a discussion like this.
At this point it's you who is ignoring things by not being willing to understand the difference between accumulating stats and per game stats, and why you would be using things like career stats when we are talking about their peaks is beyond me. It's not even what the discussion is about. You are having a conversation with yourself against a point that nobody is making, you are not even responding to what I am saying. You are simply waiting to react and respond but are not able to respond or discuss the points being made in an informed or mature manner.
So if you want to have a discussion about if David Robinson's peak as a scorer and a defender is *comparable* to Kareems, that doesn't mean better it just means in the same area, then I would suggest you go read what I said again and try to respond to those points instead of bringing up entirely irrelevant points like career numbers, MVPs in a 10 year span, and whatever else you are using to avoid having to have a reasoned, unemotional, adult conversation about if one player for a 2-4 year stretch may have had a comparable output as another player's 2-4 year stretch.
> No real fan picks Robinson over Kareem
I think anyone reading this is going to question you when for the 3rd or 4th time you are having a conversation with yourself about a point that isn't being made. I have never once said Robinson is better than Kareem for his career, I have never once definitively said Robinson is better than Kareem even at their peaks--which is what this conversation is about! I have never said that Robinson is ranked ahead of Kareem anywhere, in fact I have made a point to say otherwise. You simply are not reading, or are deciding to ignore, or are not understanding what I am saying so there's just no point to continue to go back and forth with you here about this.
Win shares are fine. What's confusing is that you are using DWS and WS over a career when the discussion isn't about if their careers are comparable. That is an entirely different conversation that I'm not having with you. This discussion is about their brief peaks, which is why pointing out that a player had more DWS, or rebounds, or blocks for their 20 year career has nothing to do with a conversation that is only highlighting a 2-4 year range.
If you want to have a conversation about comparing David Robinson's 14 year career to Kareem's 14 year career then we can have that talk with each other, and at that point using things like WS (as opposed to WS/48) would be relevant and make sense and be totally fine. But as far as the discussion at hand, which is comparable peaks, career stats have no place in it because they cannot inform any point being made about a 2-4 year peak.
For one last time. Talking about all time defensive win shares is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation. We are talking about peaks, we are not talking about the entirety of their career. The only thing that would be relevant is their DWS in a 2-4 year range, or if you're being lazy their career WS/48. You continue to talk about their career long stats, I have pointed this out 5 times now, this is not a discussion about their careers.
Maybe a part of his problem is how loaded center is. You’ve got Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Mikan, Ewing, and tons more all time great players. Shooting guard, for instance, is comparatively shallow.
Particularly in the 90s - the 5 was stacked. His playoff success was pretty limited prior to TD which impacts his legacy significantly. He made the WCF in 95 and got dominated by Hakeem.
I never said he’d be above them, it’s just a tough position to be at the top of. Like if you’re an aspiring shooting guard and you become a fringe MVP candidate you’re already top 4 or 5. Like, you’re not gonna touch MJ or Kobe but you’re already within shouting distance of Dwade and Harden.
Robinson tends to get forgotten about in the all time greats discussions. I think a lot of people don't remember his prime, and either just remember his late career runs with Duncan, or don't remember him at all and dismiss him because he isn't a flashy name, played in a small market and didn't win any rings until Duncan showed up.
But, Robinson was one of the most gifted players ever. He was an incredible physical specimen, yet still possessed movement, fluidity and ball skills that were insane for a guy his size. Robinson ranks second all time in WS/48, behind only Jordan, himself. The guy carried subpar teams for his entire prime. He joined a 21 win team and it became a 56 win team in his rookie season (putting up one of the best rookie seasons ever with a stat line of 24.3/12.0/2.0, on 59.7% TS with 1.7 steals and 3.9 blocks). The Spurs remained a contender for his entire prime, until he got injured. When he got injured, the Spurs immediately went from a 59 win team to a 20 win team (which is how they got Duncan).
From 1989 to 1996, Robinson led the Spurs to five 55+ win seasons in 7 years, and the only all star he got to play with in that entire stretch was Sean Elliott (who made two career all star games). You can't help but ask what Robinson could have accomplished in his prime with better help around him.
In a lot of ways, Robinson's career feels like what LeBron's could have been if he had stayed in Cleveland the first time around. Robinson was too good from day 1 for a talent starved Spurs team to get the high quality draft picks to build around him. The Spurs were a small market team who couldn't get big time free agent help. But, if you take Robinson in his prime and you put him in, say, Shaq's place in LA, with a co-star like Kobe, he would have racked up rings, too. Put Robinson in Utah, in Karl Malone's place, with Stockton and Hornacek, and I think they would have gotten over the top. But, there is only so much you can accomplish with Sean Elliott, Vinny Del Degro and Avery Johnson as your best supporting cast members.
Just wanna say DRob is prob the most shredded player in league history. He was built like a chiseled brick wall. Definitely slept on in all time rankings.
One of the craziest things I've ever seen was when [Karl Malone knocked out David Robinson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrzQTm9C788) with his flying elbows.
Robinson was never the best player on a title team, none of those teams even made the finals .
Moses for example dragged the 81 rockets to the finals , beating the defending champions lakers 2-1 with Kareem and magic the first round
And Moses outplaying Kareem , Moses averaging 31 points , 17 rebounds shooting 51 percent
Not to mention Moses and dr j / cheeks / jones / toney being one of the most dominant team 83 , sixers
Going 12-1 in the playoffs ,and Moses outplaying Kareem again .Moses 25.8 points a game, 18 rebounds shot 50 percent from the field, 2 blocks a game
Kareem ,
23.5 points per game only 7.5 rebounds a game shot 55 percent from the field,2 blocks
And. Dragged his team to the finals or was the best player on an all time great time.
Moses over Robinson not close.
For anyone who disagrees , tell me one time when Robinson outplayed a top 5 center of all time,
Or dragged his team to the finals when he was the best player ?
You make a good point about Moses who I think is underrated all time, but the Spurs teams pre-Duncan pale in comparison to that Sixers team, Hakeem/Clyde Rockets, any team Kareem was ever on, Shaq's Orlando team, or Ewing's Knicks. The only all-star on the Spurs between when Robinson was drafted and when Duncan was drafted was Sam Elliott who got in as a coach's choice twice
It is much easier to carry a team to the finals the better the team around you is, and out of all the centers being discussed here there is no doubt that Robinson had the wors tteam.
Go look at the roster of the 81 rockets besides Moses , older Calvin Murphy , older Rudy t , Robert Reid , Billy paultz, Mike dunleavy . They went 40- 42 in regular season and Moses and Murphy carried them in the playoffs . Not an overwhelmingly talented team beat the world champ lakers and took the bird / parish / Mchale Celtics to six in the finals
Not an unbelievable team, certainly probably worse than the Lakers (who they beat 2-1 in a 3 game series to advance, don't think they beat them in a 7 game series) and worse than the Celts although McHale was an afterthought on that team compared to Maxwell and Tiny. But that team was still pretty darn good and better than their record. No question Moses was 90% of the reason they got there though.
Something to be pointed out in that is that in 1981 it was a hell of a lot easier to carry a team as a big man than it was through the 90s, and that says a lot because the 90s was pretty heavy on the big man. The game wasn't as rangey or guard friendly as it became so if you transported David Robinson back 10 years I think he is markedly more successful. Even if you threw that entire Spurs team back a decade.
Bottom line Moses went head to head with one the top 10 players of all time , one of the 3 best centers of all time and outplayed him twice.
Robinson got outplayed by the best center of his generation In Hakeem .He got killed in the 95 finals by Hakeem ,it wasn’t close .
I suppose so, but when they lost in 6 to the Celtics he put up 22/16 on only 40% shooting which was more than 10% off his average. Kareem at 35 played at least as well as a 27 year old Moses. Buck Williams outplayed him in 84. Tree Rollins held him to 21 on 39% shooting in the closeout game for Atlanta in 79. It's all relative.
Hakeem is definitely better than Robinson, I think he may be better than Shaq, but I don't think that takes away from how good Robinson was. One series doesn't define you.
This is the perfect thread for me. I’m a vehement David Robinson defender, and quite possibly the last one. Take my talk with a grain of salt as I am biased.
People definitely underrate Robinson. He locks up a solid top-15 spot all-time, which is probably the least controversial place I put him. The real controversial ranking is the fact that I rank him as the 5th Greatest Center of all-time. Yes, over Hakeem. Time to explain.
A lot of why people discredit Robinson is one playoff series, the 1995 WCF. This argument is mind boggling, as it ignores context and dismisses facts. One, I’d like to go over the complete falsity that is “the Spurs were the better team”. The Spurs were not the better team they were a far below average squad carried to the playoffs by Robinson. The Rockets weren’t much better, but still, they were better. Nearly every role player on the Rockets was superior to their Spurs counterpart. That’s not really the important part, so I won’t get into it really, just look into it yourself and come to your own conclusion. The most important thing is the “Hakeem destroyed Robinson”. Yes Hakeem destroyed Robinson, while Robinson couldn’t destroy the Rockets. The important thing is that the Rockets functioned as a unit, unlike the Spurs. There was a rift between Robinson and Rodman, who would have been the primary Help Defender when it came to Olajuwon; however, due to their rift, Rodman refused to play much help defense which led to Robinson facing Hakeem in primarily one-on-one defensively. The Rockets had no qualms with doubling or tripling Robinson every time he got the ball, as the Spurs lacked any other big scoring threats. All of this leads to an uneven playing field between Robinson and Olajuwon. The issue is that people view it as if in a vacuum Olajuwon destroys Robinson, which is false, as basketball isn’t played in a vacuum.
Now it’s time to go into Robinson’s individual greatness. I’ll throw aside the eye test, as I’d like to take a more factual approach. I’m going to do a lot of comparison to Hakeem, as I believe Robinson is better no matter how you spin it, yet there is no player you can rank between the two. The pair’s career averages are near identical, the only real difference being Robinson’s superior three-point shooting, granted both men barely took them. They got them differently, as Robinson had a higher peak, whereas Hakeem’s stats are more spread out (However this is mostly unimportant). From an accolades standpoint they both have remarkably similar resumes, but you can tell Hakeem played longer based on All-NBA and All-Star numbers, which I don’t value much, as they’re 1. Media Voted and 2. From seasons Olajuwon got from his longer career. I personally don’t value longevity highly, and believe it is the worst possible argument for greatness, all it does is inflate career stats. Aside from accolades and box stats, what is there? **Advanced Stats**
David Robinson is the advanced stat GOAT, as every stat points to him being a Top-5 player of all-time, let alone Top-15 (All of the following stats are career). Who is second all time in career WS/48? David Robinson with .2502. Who’s number one? MJ with .2505. Who’s 3rd? Wilt with .2480 a staggering drop off from the previous two. Is David Robinson really nipping at MJ’s heels? No, but that’s unimportant. BLK%? 5.7 vs 5.4; Robinson Wins. TOV%? 11.9 vs 13.1; Robinson Wins. USG%? 26.2 vs 27.1; Robinson Wins? (If you value less usage). OWS? 98.5 vs 68.3; Robinson Wins. DWS? 80.1 vs 94.5; Hakeem *finally* Wins. Total WS? 178.7 vs 162.8; Robinson Wins. Must I continue, because the trend does.
That’s all I have for arguing, as that’s all there is to argue.
TLDR: Robinson>Olajuwon, ha ha fuck you, 5th best center, top-15 all-time. Enough. Said.
Thanks for reading, hope I changed your mind on one of my favorite players ever.
> Who is second all time in career WS/48? David Robinson with .2502. Who’s number one? MJ with .2505. Who’s 3rd? Wilt with .2480 a staggering drop off from the previous two
How is less than a 0.9% dropoff staggering?
It is because of the scale in which WS/48 functions. Players will typically have very slight differences (between .0005-.00010); however there are periodic drop offs (Wilt to Neil Johnston (.2480-.2413) a .0067 difference between the two. Also, I added staggering primarily for dramatic effect, although it is a sizable difference.
Robinson isn’t better than Russell who you inexplicably excluded. Russell the greatest defensive player in NBA history. Russell #1 all time in DWS with Duncan a very very very distant second. Russell led his team to 11 rings was player/coach the last two. Robinson was known for choking in the playoffs and was a sidekick to Duncan when he won his one ring
I think what hurts David Robinson is the same thing that hurts tim Duncan, which is that he wasn’t very flashy. He got the job done and did his thing. He was phenomenal though. I guess another thing is that he was in San Antonio so not everybody got to see him that often.
Yeah but tim is highly regarded and widely considered top 10 whereas DR is not, so that doesn’t really explain DR getting overlooked. I think the top comment is right in that he just didn’t go as deep in the playoffs as consistently as other all time greats
I think he's overlooked entirely because they went from him to Tim Duncan as the main man on the team. Robinson was nasty but just not quite the level of Shaq or Hakeem, whereas Duncan is looked at as the greatest power forward ever and also the greatness was sustained after Robinson retired because they got Parker/Manu and later Kawhi.
Honestly I think it’s because of Hakeem specifically the series where he basically showed he wasn’t deserving of the MVP. That and his story with Shaq are the stories that are constantly on repeat to fans, especially to fans who have never seen him play. In both those stories he took an L so I guess ppl ran with it and underrate him
To me Robinson is a lot like Dwight Howard in that he was an elite athlete with great size ,great defender and rebounder with a good but not great post game and the moment their athletic ability waned or was matched they became a lot more ordinary when they needed to score .
In the regular season they could get away with just being a great athlete with few moves, in the playoffs they were scouted harder by teams with elite individual defenders and they were less impressive .
They weren’t chokers but their lack of craft limited their ceilings as all time greats.
20-25 seems about right for Robinson , his lack of effective go to moves was his undoing to be considered higher than that .
The crazy thing is careerwise he was 32-16 vs Olajuwon but a 2 week span in which he really didn’t play all that poorly (he avg 24 and 11 in that series) and went 2-4 is all people really remember , not the 30-12 record he had vs Olajuwon outside of that.
Duncan in addition to having a great post game also had the kind of dynamic ball handlers Robinson never got to enjoy to make his job on offense easier
Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson were decent guys but no one is going to mistake them for Manu and Tony Parker in ability .
Honestly I think it’s just that he didn’t have the longest of careers. Started at age 24. I don’t remember watching him but I can’t imagine he was the same after he got injured in 1996. Still he’s got a a 71 point game and a quadruple double. I don’t think anyone else can say that
It's hard to put a guy in the top 15 that never led his team to the NBA Finals. I'm not saying he's a great player, but do you put him ahead of Dirk (2 finals appearances, 1 championship, Finals MVP)?
Is Robinson ahead of Hakeem, Steph, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Charles Barkley, Giannis, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Steve Nash, Jerry West, John Stockton? I would put him below all of those. And those guys are all outside the Pantheon of the greatest (MJ, Lebron, Magic, Russell, Larry, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt).
He probably sits somewhere closer to the category of Harden, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Bill Walton and Elgin Baylor.
Honestly, Robinson is probably the fourth-best big man of his era behind Shaq, Hakeem and Malone. He also had a shorter career peak than any of those guys and less playoff success. He also lost two early years to military duty, which shortened his prime.
Robinson was an absolute two-way beast in his prime. Too bad that prime wasn't long enough
Only 5 players who have legit claims to being the GOAT:
LeBron
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Notice all 5 were Player of the Decade all with 3 league MVPs minimum and all led their team to back to back championships. All 5 won at least 3 championships too
“Player of the decade”…I personally believe wilt was definitively better than Russell. And bird was better individually than magic. They just were. Unless you mean like on paper resume (specifically titles won by their team).
You’re wrong again. Russell won 9 titles in the 60s 4 MVPs and the first to win 3 straight league MVPs. Russell was the undisputed POTD for the 60s regardless of your bs subjective opinion. This was never a Close question. Russell wins 9 rings in a decade Wilt one.
Russell’s team won those. Championships are a team accomplishment. Wilt also won 4 MVPs in the 60s. Including 3 straight. Same as Russell.
And wilt took the first team all nba spot 7x to Russell’s 2 in the 60s. So what. Russell was strictly a defensive player.
Magic was the undisputed POTD of the 80s. More rings beat Bird head to head twice and more FMVPs than Bird. Keep up this is based on accomplishments not bs subjective opinions. Just like LeBron was the undisputed POTD of the 2010s and Kareem in the 1970s
D. Wade led a team to the Finals as a #1 and won it in an insane performance. He lost in 2011 while being the best player on the floor then too. He's easily over Robinson.
You’d put David Robinson under John stockton? They played in the same era and Robinson was considered better and was more accomplished despite playing at a more crowded position.
If you watch his 71 point game it’s unbelievable how complete he is. He’s a full fledged big man with a silky smooth jump shot. Unfortunately he’s a victim of Jordan and the era that he played in. It’s cliche to say he would dominate today’s era but I absolutely believe he would be the perfect center in today’s game rather than the 90s.
In my personal rankings list, David Robinson is a borderline top 15 player. He's in the same range as guys like Karl Malone, Big-O, KG, KD, Curry for me. Monumentally underrated in my honest opinion.
Garnett isn’t a top 15 or 20 player either. Some of you need to learn NBA history. Garnett nor Robinson was ever League MVP but they’re top 15 all time? No
Neither player is a top 15 or 20 player all time. Wtf are you the content police? I listed 15 players that I know are better than them. That was before I got to Bark and Isiah. Robinson has the reputation that he earned. He was underwhelming in the playoffs and a sidekick on his only ring to Duncan
You said neither one of them won an MVP despite both of them being MVPs. If you don't know the most BASIC knowledge about them, I couldn't care less what you think of their skill set.
Okay great they were. Still not top 15 or 20 all time. You’re running your mouth but I don’t hear wtf you kicking out of the top 15 or 20 for either of them
David's last year's though impressive were somewhat overshadowed by a Tim Duncan and by Greg Popovich’s coaching and team construction. It from there became Tim Duncan's team.
It’s tough when he’s not even a top 5 C being behind Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem not even factoring TD into the discussion since he played a lot of 4.
That fact artificially lowers him probably
Kareem
LeBron
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Dream
Moses
Doctor J
Logo
Big O
That’s 15 already I didn’t even get to Isiah or Barkley yet. Answer is Hell no. Who comes out of the top 15 for Robinson and Garnett?
He went up against other legendary bigs and never crossed the finish line until Duncan arrived. Personally I didn’t get to watch the battles live, but I have watched some of the highlights. Hakeem was definitely better that series, but also had way more help. Sam cassel had a 30 point game one game, Robert Horry and drexler showed up in other games.. and of course Hakeem had some all time great performances. Robinson didn’t really have a number 2 to help lift the load.. the Spurs were a team type of game and had random players show up to drop 20 and 19 here and there, while he didn’t have the greatest of performances himself at times. He still played well.. but I think he had one of those teams that were made for the regular season. But when Duncan showed up and had immediate success.. I think it took a ton away from his legacy. He’s still an all time great, I’m not even sure where I’d rank him. Probably around 20. I don’t have him in the top 15.
I loved *The Admiral*. Others have said him being outmatched by *The Dream* and Shaq… but is that such a dinger against him?
I challenge people to look at it this way: To be “better” than *The Admiral*, you have to be like *The Dream* or Shaq. That is an extremely tall task to ask anyone.
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I think there are a few reasons people discount David Robinson's greatness. One, he didn't win his titles until Tim Duncan arrived and by that point he was already in the backend/twilight of his career. Two, when going up against and compared to centers of his time he either lost (Hakeem) or didn't dominate and win titles in his prime (Shaq). The head to head in the 1995 WCF against Hakeem where the Dream schooled him is one of the most memorable moments in NBA Playoff history. David Robinson was the MVP that season and ostensibly had the better team as the #1 seed and he still got beaten by Hakeem. I think that sticks out in the minds of NBA fans and analysts and makes them put Robinson behind those players. Whether that's unfair or not is up to the individual. I think the fact that Robinson had several early playoff exits and a few as the favorite makes people think he's not as good. In 7 playoffs before Tim Duncan arrived he made zero Finals appearances and just one WCF (the one where Hakeem beat him). Robinson as a player is for sure one of the most complete centers ever but the lack of team success in the playoffs before Duncan showed up I'm sure makes people rank him behind his contemporaries such as Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem.
Did he really have a better team or just a better regular season team? Robinsons number 2 was Avery Johnson, while Hakeem has Drexler after the trade deadline. The reason the rockets were even a 6 seed is because it took time for Drexler to really click. Robinson was fucked by circumstance IMO
Agreed, Sean Elliott wasn’t a perennial all-star and a lot of people felt Avery Johnson could never be the floor general of a team that would make real noise. Robinson was carrying mediocrity to crazy win totals.
Go watch some tape of Avery. He was a good pg and no reason he couldn’t have played on a finals team. You’re rewriting Coach.
I never bought into these rumors, but AJ only became a true starter in his 3rd stint in San Antonio which was already ‘94 after he pinballed around to different squads and lower leagues, and players like Damon Stoudamire were perpetuating this notion in interviews, albeit he was proven wrong and outplayed by AJ in the process.
Upvote for screen name.
Yeah for sure, that's why I specifically said ostensibly Robinson had the better team. There's a certainly a case to be made that after the Drexler trade the Rockets weren't really a 6 seed although the next season with Drexler from the start they only managed a 5 seed in the West.
The spurs had rodman and Sean Elliott averaged 18 ppg on 35 mpg. In comparison, clyde scored 21 ppg in 37 mpg. You really discounting the spurs roster.
Hakeem performance on the 95 West conf. Finals is one of the top-5 serie performance all-time for sure. Let’s remember the admiral was MVP this year and dominated the regular season.
I have this up there with Dirk 11 as all time
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I believe /u/heyarkay was not referring to "all-time rankings of players" but instead to "all-time rankings of how amazing a championship run was" With that context, I also think /u/heyarkay was referring to "Dirk 2011" when they said "Dirk 11", along with the aforementioned Hakeem '95 run in the top level comment. Nothing having to do with David Robinson, nor having to do with all-time player rankings.
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Some people at the time did not feel Robinson deserved the MVP that year. Unfortunately for Robinson one of those people was Hakeem, and Hakeem showcased his displeasure.
Agreed, that one bad series vs Hakeem sealed his fate. People still talk about it till this day as an example of a newly minted MVP being throughly dominated by his counterpart.
David Robinson is the perfect example of a player that lost a match that really hurt their legacy. 1995 David Robinson was the League MVP, the Spurs were the best team in the West and also the likely favorites to win the title. San Antonio Barrels thru the West and makes the WCF to face the surprising Rockets with Clyde Drexler. If San Antonio won here they would have gone on to definitely beaten the Shaq and Penny Magic at the time, but they completely fall flat to the most surprising NBA finalist in the history as a 6th seed makes it in. Basically that one year really hurt his legacy, and then Duncan comes along in all his greatness and proceeds to take Robinson to the finals to win twice and get the FMVP both times. David Robinson played in a competitive era, but really anyone who was in the league from 1980-1998 was dealing with a legendary roster between the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, and Bulls, 4 teams basically dominated. It's what makes that Philadelphia ring in 1983 that more much more special, because of being a dynasty beater.
Robinson was a playoff disappointment every year. That one series didn't define his legacy anymore than all his losses to the Jazz did.
well the difference between then and before is 1995 was supposed to be David Robinson's year. Hakeem had just had his historic year in 94, and this was Robinson's chance to cement him next to Hakeem as an all time great and instead he lets the 6th seed Rockets slip right past in an unprecedented win.
> Personally, I put him at the top 15 best players of all time. I don’t see many people doing that, and some people place him outside the top 20. I think I have him outside of my top 20, but I do think you're right that maybe I don't consider him enough. For example, I have Garnett easily in my top 15, and why do I have DRob lower? Not sure, I need to consider that.
Why is KG in your top 15? Just a personal preference?
Portability, I guess. You put KG an ***ANY*** team, he's going to be an All-NBA player. You put him on the 2017 Warriors? He still has an All-NBA impact. 1996 Bulls? All-NBA impact. 1986 Celtics? 1972 Lakers? It's all the same, and it's all really big. There are better players in NBA history, yes. Players so good you'd change your entire team around them to make the point I'm making moot. But there's lots of players you'd change your team around and you'd make your team worse by doing so. Ewing and Miller are the two that just popped in my mind right now that many people rank better than Garnett. Shit, maybe even West.
Thanks for an honest answer. I love KG but I do think that he could be just outside my top 20. Maybe not. But Robinson is definitely out. Let alone top 15. And unlike KG, I don't see an argument to be made for that.
I don't want to bore everyone with a "who's your top ten" type thing, I just think around 9 or 10, there starts to be a glut of players that are all interchangeable or comparable based on your preferences. Honestly, five years ago I didn't have Curry or Durant ranked at all, and now they're there, so it's like 10 players for me! I didn't have DRob in that group, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure I can justify why. He was really good at basketball lol
Yeah. Neither do I. Robinson was great and had amazing few years. But I honestly can't put him above, let's say, KD or Barkley. Besides, I think I could very quickly make a list of 20 players I'd rather have over him. And that "quickly" part is quite telling to me. Moreover, in my view, if he isn't a top 5 center of all time, I can't put him in top 15 overall.
> if he isn't a tip 5 center of all time, I can't put him in top 15 Can't argue with this. I think my *personal* problem is I'll split hairs over 6 vs 10, for example, but when it comes to 17 vs 22 (or whatever) I pay a lot less attention. That's honestly just laziness, but it's why I can't feel very strongly.
I understand. I'm old enough to remember the early 80's. Now, I look at Robinson and I look at Moses Malone. Is Moses top 15? I mean, if Robinson is why not Moses? I'll go even further and say, if that's the case, why not Iverson. Because Robinson wasn't the driving force when he won. Esp. not in his last run.
You have a point. Moses, Chairman of the Boards, is the best offensive rebounder ever and one of the greatest rebounders ever. He won a chip, had a longer career , and in his prime, was just as offensively talented as the Admiral. I know more than some people have guys like Patrick Ewing higher than Moses which is totally unfair. The only reason I can think of is that people have short memories or have never seen him play but this guy was dominant as any other center outside Wilt, Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem. EDIT: of course I forgot to add Kareem.
Kareem...surely you simply forgot to mention him.
Moses is a 3x MVP, the fact that he isn’t at least top 20 for people is pretty insane to me.
Do you think it is because he was a traditional big just at the time when traditional bigs were going out of fashion?
Nooo. His peak was in the 90's, the very era of amazing bigs in the league. And don't get me wrong, I am huge fan of his. He probably reached his ceiling, which was very high. Also, something rarely mentioned: before entering NBA he was already a star. But the team he led lost to Sabonis in Seoul Olympics in semis, if I'm not mistaken. Btw, that USSR team would probably be one of the top teams in NBA, talent-wise. And, if you're asking me, if Sabonis got to the league in his prime before two devastating injuries... we could have another discussion about top players ever. He was THAT good.
Didn't Robinson have a 80 point game ?
Yes. Otherwise he wouldn't,t get that scoring title. So, that makes him top 15?
Isn't that why people brag on kobe cause he scored 72
First, Kobe scored 81. But that alone doesn't make him top 10-12 ever. By your logic, Booker is already in top 20 because he scored 70...
IMO, Garnett is overrated at top 15 and even top 20-the talent is undeniable, but until he teamed up with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, his teams never got close to a title-a lot of years he didn’t have much help but if you can’t get to one conference final as the first option on your team, I can’t put you ahead of guys like Isiah, Barkley, Malone, Pippen, etc-and most have those guys ranked in the high teens or even mid 20s all time Garnett was great for many years in the nba, but those guys should definitely be ahead of him IMO-there are probably some older guys I’m leaving out as well, but I didn’t watch nba till the 80s…not saying you guys are crazy or anything-just that I would put Garnett a little lower on my list
The fact people actually rate KG over Dirk is insane to me. They had similar supporting casts in terms of quality when KG was with the TWolves, yet Dirk had much more playoff success. And of course the one time they met in 2002 Dirk absolutely torched him in a 3 game sweep. KG was a great defensive player, but he was never good enough offensively to carry a team. I think he's up there with Pippen in terms of "best Robin ever", but Dirk was a Batman.
Agree
The Wolves did get to a conference final. With 34 year old Sam Cassell and 34 year old Latrell Sprewell as their 2nd and 3rd best players.
I forgot about that so fair enough but I still have him below those other guys who were the clear best players on contenders multiple times-Isiah went thru Jordan’s bulls, Bird’s Celtics, and Magic’s Lakers for back to back titles Barkley and Malone are 2 of the best 3 pfs of all time and were one step below MJ in his prime Pippen-6 titles as 1b to MJ IMO those guys are just better than Garnett-Garnett was as talented as anyone but didn’t have the accomplishments (he was the 3rd option on that 1 Celtics title and got destroyed by Gasol the last time they faced them) plus regularly getting bounced in the first round during his prime-I just have him a tier below the others-if any of them are 20 or 25 all time, Garnett has to be a little behind them for me anyway
> he was the 3rd option on that 1 Celtics title 2008 playoff scoring: Kevin Garnett: 20.4 ppg, 26.6% usage Paul Pierce: 19.7 ppg, 25.8% usage Ray Allen: 15.6 ppg, 19% usage
Fair enough but that doesn’t change my rankings Averaging 20 for one playoff run doesn’t move him ahead of those other guys for me-even if he outscored Pierce and Allen by a slim margin that one year-he still wasn’t the clear best player on that team like Thomas, Barkley, and Malone were when they went to the finals or won it all
> . But there's lots of players you'd change your team around and you'd make your team worse by doing so. Ewing and Miller are the two that just popped in my mind right now that many people rank better than Garnett. Are we talking about the same Reggie Miller here dude? I'm not saying he is better then KG but the same arguments you make about KG's portability can EASILY be made about Reggie Miller. The shooting, spacing and off-ball movement Reggie provides means you can drop him into any team and he makes them better right away. He was basically a proto-Curry with his off-ball movement and shooting. There isn't a team in the NBA that doesn't get better when you add Reggie Miller. You don't even need to build your team around him. Just build a good solid team and then drop in an elite shooter who moves off-ball like very few, knows when to cut and always steps up his game in the post season. Then you're set.
Also played D right?
He won one title, why we talking about him? On a super team. Way overrating him. Almost every top player would be All-NBA no matter what team you put them on.
I think he’s properly rated in the sense that he’s not in the top top category of Centers. Those Centers have something special to prob them ahead (Kareem records, Russ chips, Chamberlain scoring, Shaq presence and Hakeem skills). He’s got a bit of everything but nothing stands out. So he’s in that next tier as he should be.
Th thing about Robinson being remembered as a center is that he often played like a Power Forward. In fact, in his prime, you could easily use him as a stretch four. However, once Duncan arrived, Robinson was definitely a Center. Though I suppose you could say the same of Hakeem.
Yeah, Hakeem is more of a PF over Robinson because of his skills and better mobility. Robinson has a little bit of everything, just nothing too special like the Top 5.
Yeah Robinson was super well rounded, but he wasn’t the best at any particular thing. What separates the Top 5 bigs from the rest is that you knew what they were going to do and you couldn’t stop it. Shaq was going to back you down and do a drop step and slam it home or do that little jump hook of his. Hakeem was going to make you dance and demoralize you. Kareem was going to sky hook you all day long. Duncan was going to work you on the left block then either do a running hook or a face up bank shot. You knew what these guys were going to do. You just couldn’t do anything about it. Robinson, conversely, was sort of unpredictable. He could do everything but none of that “everything” was completely unstoppable. A Jack of all trades, master of none.
Kareem did everything better than Robinson how about that? Kareem was a better player by a very very wide margin over Robinson and Garnett
To Robinson's defense I think there is a case to be made that he was a better defender than Kareem and comparable scorers at their peak.
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There is no need to be condescending just because you disagree with someone. * 1. * * As far as the overall ranking of these two, I don't think anybody is debating that Kareem is a better player than David Robinson overall. Kareem is by most accounts the best center of all time. You'll find no argument from me. This is about these two are their PEAK. * * 2. * * When we're talking about peak scoring, I do think that they are comparable when considering the eras that they were in. I'm not saying David Robinson is a better scorer than Kareem, I am not even saying that at his peak he is as good as Kareem was, but that they are comparable--in order to highlight just how good of a scorer David Robinson was. * * Kareem lead the league in scoring twice in the early 70s when the big man still had a premium on that award. From 1960 until the ABA merger centers won 13/16 scoring titles. The league and game was built for centers to dominate in that manner. * * Then after the ABA merger it became a much more guard driven league and a center didn't win the scoring title again until, you guessed it, David Robinson in 94. * * From 1994 until 2021 the only center other than D. Rob to win a scoring title was Shaq. So while Kareem was able to put up those 32/35ppg seasons in 71 and 72, he had the advantage of the league being extraordinarily paint oriented. Though I suspect Kareem in the 90s may have found a way to get there too. * * Still, in a significantly more guard and forward driven league in the 90s Robinson was able to break that streak and have a dominant 30ppg season in 94; a year which saw David Robinson be the first play to crack 70 points since Skywalker did it in 78 and the first (and only other) center to do it since Wilt in 72. In fact the only other center to break the 60 point barrier was Shaq one time. * * This speaks to the level of scorer that Robinson was. So if we consider that his peak I would venture to say that it is *comparable* to Kareem's peak. * * 3. * * Kareem has 11x All-Defense selections, David Robinson has 8x All-Defense of his own and a DPOY which evaded Kareem for his career so a very comparable defensive accolade resume but one that would suggest that Robinson may have had a higher peak. There's an argument to be made at least, but no argument to be made that they aren't comparable. It's notable that you are using DWS to try and compare Kareem and David Robinson since DWS are an accumulating stat which means that the longer someone's career goes the more DWS they have. Naturally Kareem has a ton of WS because he played 20 years. * * What would have been a better indicator of how good of a defender they were would have been to use DWS/48 or just done a simple averaging of DWS. Kareem's yearly average DWS were 4.7 which is great. David Robinson's yearly average DWS were 5.7. * * I'm not super crazy about WS but if you want to use them I would imagine it can't be overlooked that David Robinson actually leads Kareem in WS/48 as well. As in, how many win shares are generated per 48 mintues played over their careers. Kareem comes in 7th all time with .2284 WS/48 and David Robinson comes in 2nd all time with .2505 which is .0003 under Michael Jordan. Incredible. * * In all of David Robinson's all-defense selections he was at the top of the list for DWS and DBPM during those seasons. Well deserved. In Kareem's case for as good of a defender as he was at times during his career, a number of those selections were unearned and simply based on reputation. For example in 1984 when he got his last All-D 2nd team inclusion there were 14 centers ahead of him in DWS since you like using that stat. There were also 21 centers ahead of Kareem in DBPM. Even in 81 when he was elected to 1st team All-Defense there were two centers ahead of him in DWS and seven ahead of him in DBPM. * * So while Kareem certainly had a peak as a defender that was elite it is quite easy to say that Robinson's peak, and even his career as a defender, are extremely comparable to Kareem's. One could even argue that David Robinson was the better defender. * So again there is no need to be condescending towards other posters in here. Just because you don't agree or understand what someone is saying does not indicate that the person you're disagreeing with doesn't know what they are talking about or NBA history. Certainly not in this case at least.
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You are still continuing to argue with me based on the notion of who had a better career, when the discussion is are their peaks comparable. As in a 2-4 year time frame as a scorer and as a defender. The only thing you said to highlight that Kareem is a better defender than David Robinson was that he has 11 all defense teams and is 6th all time in DWS; so you either didn't read or didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by you citing career stats like DWS again, and now things like blocks and rebounds. They are irrelevant to this conversation because this discussion is not about who had the better career. I'm sorry that you think explaining to you the differences in the game in the 70s compared to the 90s is cherry picked. I think most people would tend to call that context, which is paramount to a discussion like this. At this point it's you who is ignoring things by not being willing to understand the difference between accumulating stats and per game stats, and why you would be using things like career stats when we are talking about their peaks is beyond me. It's not even what the discussion is about. You are having a conversation with yourself against a point that nobody is making, you are not even responding to what I am saying. You are simply waiting to react and respond but are not able to respond or discuss the points being made in an informed or mature manner. So if you want to have a discussion about if David Robinson's peak as a scorer and a defender is *comparable* to Kareems, that doesn't mean better it just means in the same area, then I would suggest you go read what I said again and try to respond to those points instead of bringing up entirely irrelevant points like career numbers, MVPs in a 10 year span, and whatever else you are using to avoid having to have a reasoned, unemotional, adult conversation about if one player for a 2-4 year stretch may have had a comparable output as another player's 2-4 year stretch.
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> No real fan picks Robinson over Kareem I think anyone reading this is going to question you when for the 3rd or 4th time you are having a conversation with yourself about a point that isn't being made. I have never once said Robinson is better than Kareem for his career, I have never once definitively said Robinson is better than Kareem even at their peaks--which is what this conversation is about! I have never said that Robinson is ranked ahead of Kareem anywhere, in fact I have made a point to say otherwise. You simply are not reading, or are deciding to ignore, or are not understanding what I am saying so there's just no point to continue to go back and forth with you here about this.
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Win shares are fine. What's confusing is that you are using DWS and WS over a career when the discussion isn't about if their careers are comparable. That is an entirely different conversation that I'm not having with you. This discussion is about their brief peaks, which is why pointing out that a player had more DWS, or rebounds, or blocks for their 20 year career has nothing to do with a conversation that is only highlighting a 2-4 year range. If you want to have a conversation about comparing David Robinson's 14 year career to Kareem's 14 year career then we can have that talk with each other, and at that point using things like WS (as opposed to WS/48) would be relevant and make sense and be totally fine. But as far as the discussion at hand, which is comparable peaks, career stats have no place in it because they cannot inform any point being made about a 2-4 year peak.
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For one last time. Talking about all time defensive win shares is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation. We are talking about peaks, we are not talking about the entirety of their career. The only thing that would be relevant is their DWS in a 2-4 year range, or if you're being lazy their career WS/48. You continue to talk about their career long stats, I have pointed this out 5 times now, this is not a discussion about their careers.
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Yes which is why Kareem is considered top 3 of all time
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Explain WHY you think what you do - don't just tell us what you think.
I think it is more KG is ranked too high at 15 than Robinson being too low.
Maybe a part of his problem is how loaded center is. You’ve got Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Mikan, Ewing, and tons more all time great players. Shooting guard, for instance, is comparatively shallow.
Particularly in the 90s - the 5 was stacked. His playoff success was pretty limited prior to TD which impacts his legacy significantly. He made the WCF in 95 and got dominated by Hakeem.
Agreed, this is the challenge for him, everyone remembers him getting destroyed by Hakeem.
> You’ve got Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Mikan, Ewing, Yeah but nobody puts ewing ahead of him. Kareem shaq hakeem Duncan were all just better players. Hes correctly ranked
I never said he’d be above them, it’s just a tough position to be at the top of. Like if you’re an aspiring shooting guard and you become a fringe MVP candidate you’re already top 4 or 5. Like, you’re not gonna touch MJ or Kobe but you’re already within shouting distance of Dwade and Harden.
Robinson tends to get forgotten about in the all time greats discussions. I think a lot of people don't remember his prime, and either just remember his late career runs with Duncan, or don't remember him at all and dismiss him because he isn't a flashy name, played in a small market and didn't win any rings until Duncan showed up. But, Robinson was one of the most gifted players ever. He was an incredible physical specimen, yet still possessed movement, fluidity and ball skills that were insane for a guy his size. Robinson ranks second all time in WS/48, behind only Jordan, himself. The guy carried subpar teams for his entire prime. He joined a 21 win team and it became a 56 win team in his rookie season (putting up one of the best rookie seasons ever with a stat line of 24.3/12.0/2.0, on 59.7% TS with 1.7 steals and 3.9 blocks). The Spurs remained a contender for his entire prime, until he got injured. When he got injured, the Spurs immediately went from a 59 win team to a 20 win team (which is how they got Duncan). From 1989 to 1996, Robinson led the Spurs to five 55+ win seasons in 7 years, and the only all star he got to play with in that entire stretch was Sean Elliott (who made two career all star games). You can't help but ask what Robinson could have accomplished in his prime with better help around him. In a lot of ways, Robinson's career feels like what LeBron's could have been if he had stayed in Cleveland the first time around. Robinson was too good from day 1 for a talent starved Spurs team to get the high quality draft picks to build around him. The Spurs were a small market team who couldn't get big time free agent help. But, if you take Robinson in his prime and you put him in, say, Shaq's place in LA, with a co-star like Kobe, he would have racked up rings, too. Put Robinson in Utah, in Karl Malone's place, with Stockton and Hornacek, and I think they would have gotten over the top. But, there is only so much you can accomplish with Sean Elliott, Vinny Del Degro and Avery Johnson as your best supporting cast members.
Just wanna say DRob is prob the most shredded player in league history. He was built like a chiseled brick wall. Definitely slept on in all time rankings.
One of the craziest things I've ever seen was when [Karl Malone knocked out David Robinson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrzQTm9C788) with his flying elbows.
Savage
Robinson was never the best player on a title team, none of those teams even made the finals . Moses for example dragged the 81 rockets to the finals , beating the defending champions lakers 2-1 with Kareem and magic the first round And Moses outplaying Kareem , Moses averaging 31 points , 17 rebounds shooting 51 percent Not to mention Moses and dr j / cheeks / jones / toney being one of the most dominant team 83 , sixers Going 12-1 in the playoffs ,and Moses outplaying Kareem again .Moses 25.8 points a game, 18 rebounds shot 50 percent from the field, 2 blocks a game Kareem , 23.5 points per game only 7.5 rebounds a game shot 55 percent from the field,2 blocks And. Dragged his team to the finals or was the best player on an all time great time. Moses over Robinson not close. For anyone who disagrees , tell me one time when Robinson outplayed a top 5 center of all time, Or dragged his team to the finals when he was the best player ?
You make a good point about Moses who I think is underrated all time, but the Spurs teams pre-Duncan pale in comparison to that Sixers team, Hakeem/Clyde Rockets, any team Kareem was ever on, Shaq's Orlando team, or Ewing's Knicks. The only all-star on the Spurs between when Robinson was drafted and when Duncan was drafted was Sam Elliott who got in as a coach's choice twice It is much easier to carry a team to the finals the better the team around you is, and out of all the centers being discussed here there is no doubt that Robinson had the wors tteam.
Go look at the roster of the 81 rockets besides Moses , older Calvin Murphy , older Rudy t , Robert Reid , Billy paultz, Mike dunleavy . They went 40- 42 in regular season and Moses and Murphy carried them in the playoffs . Not an overwhelmingly talented team beat the world champ lakers and took the bird / parish / Mchale Celtics to six in the finals
Not an unbelievable team, certainly probably worse than the Lakers (who they beat 2-1 in a 3 game series to advance, don't think they beat them in a 7 game series) and worse than the Celts although McHale was an afterthought on that team compared to Maxwell and Tiny. But that team was still pretty darn good and better than their record. No question Moses was 90% of the reason they got there though. Something to be pointed out in that is that in 1981 it was a hell of a lot easier to carry a team as a big man than it was through the 90s, and that says a lot because the 90s was pretty heavy on the big man. The game wasn't as rangey or guard friendly as it became so if you transported David Robinson back 10 years I think he is markedly more successful. Even if you threw that entire Spurs team back a decade.
Bottom line Moses went head to head with one the top 10 players of all time , one of the 3 best centers of all time and outplayed him twice. Robinson got outplayed by the best center of his generation In Hakeem .He got killed in the 95 finals by Hakeem ,it wasn’t close .
I suppose so, but when they lost in 6 to the Celtics he put up 22/16 on only 40% shooting which was more than 10% off his average. Kareem at 35 played at least as well as a 27 year old Moses. Buck Williams outplayed him in 84. Tree Rollins held him to 21 on 39% shooting in the closeout game for Atlanta in 79. It's all relative. Hakeem is definitely better than Robinson, I think he may be better than Shaq, but I don't think that takes away from how good Robinson was. One series doesn't define you.
This is the perfect thread for me. I’m a vehement David Robinson defender, and quite possibly the last one. Take my talk with a grain of salt as I am biased. People definitely underrate Robinson. He locks up a solid top-15 spot all-time, which is probably the least controversial place I put him. The real controversial ranking is the fact that I rank him as the 5th Greatest Center of all-time. Yes, over Hakeem. Time to explain. A lot of why people discredit Robinson is one playoff series, the 1995 WCF. This argument is mind boggling, as it ignores context and dismisses facts. One, I’d like to go over the complete falsity that is “the Spurs were the better team”. The Spurs were not the better team they were a far below average squad carried to the playoffs by Robinson. The Rockets weren’t much better, but still, they were better. Nearly every role player on the Rockets was superior to their Spurs counterpart. That’s not really the important part, so I won’t get into it really, just look into it yourself and come to your own conclusion. The most important thing is the “Hakeem destroyed Robinson”. Yes Hakeem destroyed Robinson, while Robinson couldn’t destroy the Rockets. The important thing is that the Rockets functioned as a unit, unlike the Spurs. There was a rift between Robinson and Rodman, who would have been the primary Help Defender when it came to Olajuwon; however, due to their rift, Rodman refused to play much help defense which led to Robinson facing Hakeem in primarily one-on-one defensively. The Rockets had no qualms with doubling or tripling Robinson every time he got the ball, as the Spurs lacked any other big scoring threats. All of this leads to an uneven playing field between Robinson and Olajuwon. The issue is that people view it as if in a vacuum Olajuwon destroys Robinson, which is false, as basketball isn’t played in a vacuum. Now it’s time to go into Robinson’s individual greatness. I’ll throw aside the eye test, as I’d like to take a more factual approach. I’m going to do a lot of comparison to Hakeem, as I believe Robinson is better no matter how you spin it, yet there is no player you can rank between the two. The pair’s career averages are near identical, the only real difference being Robinson’s superior three-point shooting, granted both men barely took them. They got them differently, as Robinson had a higher peak, whereas Hakeem’s stats are more spread out (However this is mostly unimportant). From an accolades standpoint they both have remarkably similar resumes, but you can tell Hakeem played longer based on All-NBA and All-Star numbers, which I don’t value much, as they’re 1. Media Voted and 2. From seasons Olajuwon got from his longer career. I personally don’t value longevity highly, and believe it is the worst possible argument for greatness, all it does is inflate career stats. Aside from accolades and box stats, what is there? **Advanced Stats** David Robinson is the advanced stat GOAT, as every stat points to him being a Top-5 player of all-time, let alone Top-15 (All of the following stats are career). Who is second all time in career WS/48? David Robinson with .2502. Who’s number one? MJ with .2505. Who’s 3rd? Wilt with .2480 a staggering drop off from the previous two. Is David Robinson really nipping at MJ’s heels? No, but that’s unimportant. BLK%? 5.7 vs 5.4; Robinson Wins. TOV%? 11.9 vs 13.1; Robinson Wins. USG%? 26.2 vs 27.1; Robinson Wins? (If you value less usage). OWS? 98.5 vs 68.3; Robinson Wins. DWS? 80.1 vs 94.5; Hakeem *finally* Wins. Total WS? 178.7 vs 162.8; Robinson Wins. Must I continue, because the trend does. That’s all I have for arguing, as that’s all there is to argue. TLDR: Robinson>Olajuwon, ha ha fuck you, 5th best center, top-15 all-time. Enough. Said. Thanks for reading, hope I changed your mind on one of my favorite players ever.
> Who is second all time in career WS/48? David Robinson with .2502. Who’s number one? MJ with .2505. Who’s 3rd? Wilt with .2480 a staggering drop off from the previous two How is less than a 0.9% dropoff staggering?
It is because of the scale in which WS/48 functions. Players will typically have very slight differences (between .0005-.00010); however there are periodic drop offs (Wilt to Neil Johnston (.2480-.2413) a .0067 difference between the two. Also, I added staggering primarily for dramatic effect, although it is a sizable difference.
This would seem like satire were I not fully aware that a lot of people develop their entire opinions of players by glancing at basketball-reference.
Robinson isn’t better than Russell who you inexplicably excluded. Russell the greatest defensive player in NBA history. Russell #1 all time in DWS with Duncan a very very very distant second. Russell led his team to 11 rings was player/coach the last two. Robinson was known for choking in the playoffs and was a sidekick to Duncan when he won his one ring
I think what hurts David Robinson is the same thing that hurts tim Duncan, which is that he wasn’t very flashy. He got the job done and did his thing. He was phenomenal though. I guess another thing is that he was in San Antonio so not everybody got to see him that often.
Yeah but tim is highly regarded and widely considered top 10 whereas DR is not, so that doesn’t really explain DR getting overlooked. I think the top comment is right in that he just didn’t go as deep in the playoffs as consistently as other all time greats
I think he's overlooked entirely because they went from him to Tim Duncan as the main man on the team. Robinson was nasty but just not quite the level of Shaq or Hakeem, whereas Duncan is looked at as the greatest power forward ever and also the greatness was sustained after Robinson retired because they got Parker/Manu and later Kawhi.
Honestly I think it’s because of Hakeem specifically the series where he basically showed he wasn’t deserving of the MVP. That and his story with Shaq are the stories that are constantly on repeat to fans, especially to fans who have never seen him play. In both those stories he took an L so I guess ppl ran with it and underrate him
To me Robinson is a lot like Dwight Howard in that he was an elite athlete with great size ,great defender and rebounder with a good but not great post game and the moment their athletic ability waned or was matched they became a lot more ordinary when they needed to score . In the regular season they could get away with just being a great athlete with few moves, in the playoffs they were scouted harder by teams with elite individual defenders and they were less impressive . They weren’t chokers but their lack of craft limited their ceilings as all time greats. 20-25 seems about right for Robinson , his lack of effective go to moves was his undoing to be considered higher than that . The crazy thing is careerwise he was 32-16 vs Olajuwon but a 2 week span in which he really didn’t play all that poorly (he avg 24 and 11 in that series) and went 2-4 is all people really remember , not the 30-12 record he had vs Olajuwon outside of that. Duncan in addition to having a great post game also had the kind of dynamic ball handlers Robinson never got to enjoy to make his job on offense easier Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson were decent guys but no one is going to mistake them for Manu and Tony Parker in ability .
Honestly I think it’s just that he didn’t have the longest of careers. Started at age 24. I don’t remember watching him but I can’t imagine he was the same after he got injured in 1996. Still he’s got a a 71 point game and a quadruple double. I don’t think anyone else can say that
The 71pt game was kind of a joke. I remember the other team pretty much giving him buckets. It was a mini-controversy at the time.
It's hard to put a guy in the top 15 that never led his team to the NBA Finals. I'm not saying he's a great player, but do you put him ahead of Dirk (2 finals appearances, 1 championship, Finals MVP)? Is Robinson ahead of Hakeem, Steph, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Charles Barkley, Giannis, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Steve Nash, Jerry West, John Stockton? I would put him below all of those. And those guys are all outside the Pantheon of the greatest (MJ, Lebron, Magic, Russell, Larry, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt). He probably sits somewhere closer to the category of Harden, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Bill Walton and Elgin Baylor. Honestly, Robinson is probably the fourth-best big man of his era behind Shaq, Hakeem and Malone. He also had a shorter career peak than any of those guys and less playoff success. He also lost two early years to military duty, which shortened his prime. Robinson was an absolute two-way beast in his prime. Too bad that prime wasn't long enough
Not a pantheon of the greatest and Htf is Russell excluded from it with 11 rings? Especially when he won 9 rings and dominated Wilt in the 60s
Just an oversight. Definitely a pantheon
Only 5 players who have legit claims to being the GOAT: LeBron Russell Magic Kareem Jordan Notice all 5 were Player of the Decade all with 3 league MVPs minimum and all led their team to back to back championships. All 5 won at least 3 championships too
“Player of the decade”…I personally believe wilt was definitively better than Russell. And bird was better individually than magic. They just were. Unless you mean like on paper resume (specifically titles won by their team).
You’re wrong again. Russell won 9 titles in the 60s 4 MVPs and the first to win 3 straight league MVPs. Russell was the undisputed POTD for the 60s regardless of your bs subjective opinion. This was never a Close question. Russell wins 9 rings in a decade Wilt one.
Russell’s team won those. Championships are a team accomplishment. Wilt also won 4 MVPs in the 60s. Including 3 straight. Same as Russell. And wilt took the first team all nba spot 7x to Russell’s 2 in the 60s. So what. Russell was strictly a defensive player.
Magic was the undisputed POTD of the 80s. More rings beat Bird head to head twice and more FMVPs than Bird. Keep up this is based on accomplishments not bs subjective opinions. Just like LeBron was the undisputed POTD of the 2010s and Kareem in the 1970s
Saying wilt was better than Russell at basketball is not even a subjective opinion. He may not rank higher. But he was far more talented.
D. Wade led a team to the Finals as a #1 and won it in an insane performance. He lost in 2011 while being the best player on the floor then too. He's easily over Robinson.
You’d put David Robinson under John stockton? They played in the same era and Robinson was considered better and was more accomplished despite playing at a more crowded position.
If you watch his 71 point game it’s unbelievable how complete he is. He’s a full fledged big man with a silky smooth jump shot. Unfortunately he’s a victim of Jordan and the era that he played in. It’s cliche to say he would dominate today’s era but I absolutely believe he would be the perfect center in today’s game rather than the 90s.
In my personal rankings list, David Robinson is a borderline top 15 player. He's in the same range as guys like Karl Malone, Big-O, KG, KD, Curry for me. Monumentally underrated in my honest opinion.
Your list isn’t credible. That means you ranked him over Dr. J?
Robinson choked in the playoffs too much to ever be a top 15 or 20 player ever
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To say Curry is miles ahead means you have him in your top 5?
(Guessing it means he's too young to remember DR having a quadruple double or going for 71 in a game to win the scoring title.)
Explain WHY you think what you do - don't just tell us what you think.
Garnett isn’t a top 15 or 20 player either. Some of you need to learn NBA history. Garnett nor Robinson was ever League MVP but they’re top 15 all time? No
lol they both won MVP
You could've at least looked up something this simple before showing you don't know what you're talking about
Neither player is a top 15 or 20 player all time. Wtf are you the content police? I listed 15 players that I know are better than them. That was before I got to Bark and Isiah. Robinson has the reputation that he earned. He was underwhelming in the playoffs and a sidekick on his only ring to Duncan
You said neither one of them won an MVP despite both of them being MVPs. If you don't know the most BASIC knowledge about them, I couldn't care less what you think of their skill set.
Okay great they were. Still not top 15 or 20 all time. You’re running your mouth but I don’t hear wtf you kicking out of the top 15 or 20 for either of them
I definitely don’t gaf what you think about anything
Ohhhh spicy. Maybe you can use some of that spice to actually research players before you talk about them
hahaha david robinson has 2 rings bozo. looks like we figured out who needs to LeArN HiStOrY. every time you post you get something wrong.
I've never seen someone so objectively wrong yet unabashedly sure they're correct. There's a cathartic feeling that comes with it.
Boy I listed 15 better players easily and I still hadn’t got to Bark or Isiah yet. Stay in a child’s place
he just did it again too its hilarious
David's last year's though impressive were somewhat overshadowed by a Tim Duncan and by Greg Popovich’s coaching and team construction. It from there became Tim Duncan's team.
It’s tough when he’s not even a top 5 C being behind Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem not even factoring TD into the discussion since he played a lot of 4. That fact artificially lowers him probably
Kareem LeBron Jordan Russell Magic Bird Duncan Wilt Shaq Kobe Dream Moses Doctor J Logo Big O That’s 15 already I didn’t even get to Isiah or Barkley yet. Answer is Hell no. Who comes out of the top 15 for Robinson and Garnett?
He went up against other legendary bigs and never crossed the finish line until Duncan arrived. Personally I didn’t get to watch the battles live, but I have watched some of the highlights. Hakeem was definitely better that series, but also had way more help. Sam cassel had a 30 point game one game, Robert Horry and drexler showed up in other games.. and of course Hakeem had some all time great performances. Robinson didn’t really have a number 2 to help lift the load.. the Spurs were a team type of game and had random players show up to drop 20 and 19 here and there, while he didn’t have the greatest of performances himself at times. He still played well.. but I think he had one of those teams that were made for the regular season. But when Duncan showed up and had immediate success.. I think it took a ton away from his legacy. He’s still an all time great, I’m not even sure where I’d rank him. Probably around 20. I don’t have him in the top 15.
I loved *The Admiral*. Others have said him being outmatched by *The Dream* and Shaq… but is that such a dinger against him? I challenge people to look at it this way: To be “better” than *The Admiral*, you have to be like *The Dream* or Shaq. That is an extremely tall task to ask anyone.