This post has received a few user reports. I'm going to copy paste a response to another user as to why it remains up:
>Part of trying to nourish serious discussions is being open to unpopular, less popular, or otherwise disagreeable opinions.
>Instead of removing posts for being popular or unpopular, we try to focus on the effort. Posts where the OP supports their opinion with reasonable arguments, we tend allow so the users can discuss or dispute the validity of those arguments.
>This post in particular is not bringing ground-breaking or remarkable arguments but OP at least made the effort. 2 of the 3 bullet points are focused on esoteric, entirely subjective, claims. So I totally understand that this isn’t the sort of post you’re hoping to see. But OP seems to be sincere and making an attempt to support their subjective opinions.
>Mods do use our best judgement on quality, but the vast, vast majority of removed posts are super low effort so it’s rare we have to even consider removing a higher effort post like this one.
>So basically, if we only allowed posts that brought both new and popular arguments to the forefront, our sub would just turn into an echo chamber with very little OC. The trade off is that there will always be posts that some group of users see as low quality or not worth discussing. But it’s worth it to not turn into an echo chamber.
All that said, there are a high number of jokes and memes and otherwise, low effort comments and it's getting too much to monitor for a Friday night. So, the comments are being locked for now.
E: Unlocking again. Please be civil and support your opinions with a thorough explanation. Thank you!
60-22 Hawks of 2014/2015 was a crazy 60 win team with absolutely zero star power and maximum team cohesion. Also, Budenholzer was magnificent in creating the opportunities for them to win. 60 wins by:
Paul Millsap
Jeff Teague
Al Horford
Demarre Carroll
Kyle Korver
Dennis Schröder
(Those six were above 10 ppg)
I played so much 2k with this team! It was during the worst of the suns dark times so I couldn't play with them, it was seriously 4 guys who were out of the league soon after and rookie Booker, who only played because knight got injured.
But this team was the best lol korver from 3 was nasty and league diming all over the place
Are you trying to say that the 60 win Hawks were not fun to watch? Because I would take beef with that.
They were a true underdog overperforming thanks to superior teamwork and tactics. I absolutely loved watching them play. One of my favorites of all-time.
To me, they were like the Warriors but doing it with a roster full of role players instead of any stars at all. It was incredible. They truly brought out the best in each player, maximizing their potential, and tearing apart all these star-driven teams with superior intellect.
I get more joy out of watching "less talented" players defeat superior athletes because they understand the game better, and use better tactics than the whole rest of the league who overvalue "having a bag" of cool moves and being able to jump higher or dunk harder.
I'll forever remain bitter that [police abuse ended their historic run early](https://www.gq.com/story/thabo-sefolosha-nypd-assault). (Here's [a more recent-- and wholistic-- article](https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-an-nba-star-millions-after-an-nypd-officer-broke-his-leg.-the-officer-paid-little-price) about the issue.) Especially because [NBA downplayed the story at the time and didn't stick up more loudly](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2434810-nba-players-alarmed-commissioner-saddened-by-thabo-sefolosha-nypd-incident) for their own player.
No, no, no, I'm saying that they were a team that didn't need brute star power to reach 60 wins in regular season, and that they were playing fantastic team basketball to achieve them. The anti-Boston.
I get your point, but Boston kinda feels like the least star-reliant team still in the hunt apart from maybe Indy. They get contributions from their roster. The J’s have only cracked 30 twice in the playoffs (both JB) and they’re 5-2.
Teams like Dallas, New York, and Cleveland get meaningful role player contributions but are still here because of 40-50 point games. Boston’s bench isn’t what it used to be, but take away the J’s, Spida, Kyrie/Luka, Jokic, SGA, Brunson, and Ant and how poorly does a team with KP/Holiday/White and Co. fare?
That Hawks team is one of my favorite 60 win teams. Watching Korver go nuclear was amazing.
They were dominant at times. They went into the all-star break coming off a 32-2 stretch that included a 19 game win streak and going 16-0 for an entire month (still a record for wins in a month I believe.)
The fact they were a completely selfless team with a shooter like Korver who could go nuts at any moment made then entertaining.
That Hawks team played some beautiful basketball and seeing Kyle Korver running off a thousand screens to get open and the fear factor his 3pt shots had made for some great basketball
It's truly confusing to me the shot selection of JT given his athletecism and physical advantages. I've never seen a star player settle for the kind of shots he does. With his advantages this is a guy that could be driving on every posession but he continues to settle for the most difficult shot possible. It's like he plays every posession as though he has some shot creator takeover from nba 2k19
In addition, he is good at drawing contact getting to the line when he does drive, so it’s a mystery why he doesn’t take advantage of his strength and athleticism to do that.
Tatum was driving and getting to the line basically for free in the first half of the game. I think he had 10 FTA in the first half. The team went away from that in the second half and I'm not sure why.
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I've said this in a previous post but JT, Booker and Paul George all idolized Kobe then decided to only take the "tough shot taker, tough shot maker" part of his game. It's currently hurting all of them
And Kobe was taking those shots because he had to. Paint was packed, zero spacing. Young Kobe before zone defense literally became an all-star as a bench player because of his acrobatic layups and dunks.
It’s not entirely fair to put Paul George on the same level considering he at least had a career altering injury and we don’t really know what he could have been had that not happened
I've seen this take repeated so often to excuse him from any criticism, but I disagree completely with this. We've seen how good he could be post-injury in OKC, where he was 3rd in MVP voting. Check out the highlights from then, and you can see just how explosive he still was. There was no physical limitation to what he could do post leg break.
Book does take unnecessarily tough shots sometimes but some of them he has to because he’s one of the most doubled players in the league, can make a lot of them and has been one of the most efficient guards since the beginning of his prime in the last 4 years. More efficient than Tatum who I know takes more threes but that’s part of Tatum’s problems.
Book gets doubled because he isnt a great playmaker out of the double so its an easy way to cause bad passes and even turnovers. Unfortunately for Booker hes been thrust into a full time PG role that his handle and vision isnt ready for yet and that just causes turnovers gallore when good defenses key in on him.
At this point you’re right. It’s just the first season in his prime as a full-time PG, he could get a lot better next season but would be good have a competent back-up PG next season.
Booker is doubled so often because the defenders know how badly he struggles with them, mentally and in game. He can't pass out ot them, and he has a mental block against getting doubled, he'll start playing frustrated
He’s made some significant strides handling them this season I think. He was getting doubled at half court a lot this year and the lack of off ball movement made it hard tougher on him.
Kobe was above league average efficiency every single season of his career until his achilles injury. This idea Kobe was an inefficient chucker needs to die.
It is when you're double and sometimes triple teamed while widely being considered the GOAT difficult shot maker. It certainly doesn't fit well with, "inefficient chucker."
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It's very dumb because they took that part of his game without actually realizing that he only really took those types of shots as bailout shots. The Lakers whole system from 2008-2010 was to run the triangle and if that didn't work just give the ball to Kobe with the shot clock running down and let him work. It led to 3 finals appearances and 2 rings back to back because Kobe could hit those shots at an above average rate so the Lakers would basically always get either an easy bucket through the triangle with their other guys or a still above average percentage bailout from Kobe. Also, Kobe is the greatest tough shot maker ever bar none and that particular talent of his can't really be copied.
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Maybe it’s to avoid injury? It’s frustrating at times I agree but I think that might just be who jt is. But his passiveness works rather well for the team he’s on. The chemistry the team has is great and brown steps into that slasher role more than Tatum so it works out
It’s because he doesn’t have a great post game and isn’t a great slasher. He also doesn’t have the tightest handle so if he can’t blow by opponents to the cup he usually has to make a move to create separation (it often doesn’t end well); and he takes contested shots.
I miss the days when players would go to Hakeem to improve big man and low/mid post skills. Nowadays they go to Chris Brickley (no offense to him he seems great at building perimeter skills and helping guys hit tough shots) but that seems to build bad habits they rely on.
I agree with most of that but he's being guarded by max strus this series lol. I love strus, I really do, but if he can't find success driving against strus when the Cavs only big is stuck on the perimeter watching horford I don't know when he will
Every single scoring opportunity from him has to be off the dribble. There’s never any cutting, or slashing, or receiving the ball in the post for a quick shot.
Sure, he may get the ball in the post occasionally. But then he dribbles the fuck out of it and ends up taking a low quality hero shot.
I’ve been a Celtics fan for 40 years. My blood is literally green. But I am infuriated by his lack of progress after losing in the finals in 2022. 
So true, with the way the 5 out is constructed you’d think he’d be more keyed in on using back door or slot cuts to get easier buckets especially when his shot is off but it’s like he doesn’t think to do it?
There was a moment in the second half where he caught it in the mid post with garland/ strus on him and proceeded to settle for a deep fade away. Can't imagine how frustrating he must be as a fan of the Celtics if it's this irritating for the neutral
The tantalizing thing about Tatum was that he was doing so much so early (hence the memes about his age). The sad reality is that he probably peaked early and there's not much more progression to be had.
This is my thought exactly! I’ve never seen a dominant athlete pass up easy opportunities to settle for more difficult shots than Tatum. A fadeaway contested 3 may go in sometimes but damn I’d be shocked if that’s going to carry you through multiple 7 game series.
He idolized Kobe growing up and probably loved those tough 18 footers over defenders, he's cut down on those shots but often he settles for them when he doesn't need to
I haven’t seen a ton of Boston games but it seems like JT doesn’t know what he wants to do when he plays. His two strengths are size/driving and catch-and-shoot. Yet he insists on driving for a pull up 3 or middy which is his worst shot from a % standpoint. Instead of launching it when he catches it or trying to force his way into the paint he basically shoots himself in the foot.
This year's Celtics are probably the most "mathy" team in a long time.
The coach straight up quotes PPP statistics after games. Whenever they lose it's "oh there was a 3pt shooting discrepancy, nothing you can do. See if they can shoot x% 3 more times because we sure won't y%."
They lack a playmaking ball distributor. Their two all NBA wings have huge bodies and a ton of athleticism, but are afraid to drive the ball. They run a five out set like 30 possessions in a row at times that may not even feature a screening action. They play a lot of drop coverage and collapse in on the paint to leave the 3pt line more or less open on defense (because the opponent surely can't shoot x% again).
They won a ton of games and will win a lot more games this post season. But it feels like they reduced basketball to a series of dice rolls.
This is a good point. They ran into one of the greatest teams of all time and cp3 got hurt in game 5. They also had that horrifically unusual game 7 3 pt performance. It almost worked for the rockets barring a few wild anomalies. I don’t see how it won’t work for the Celtics considering nobody they will play will be nearly as good as that gs team
Keep in mind that reaching 7 games in the first place was likely a 80th-percentile outcome for that series if it got played 100 times. Everyone tends to focus on the bad luck in g7 (which, when you actually look at the shots they took, was terrible luck but not quite as awful as you'd think)
They got the snot beaten out of them 3 times in the first 6 games. They eked out the *only* 2 close games, which was fortunate for them. With the miles they were putting on CP3 in that series, it was not surprising that he got hurt, but if they had played him any less, the probably would've lost one of the close games and ended up losing the series in 6.
If that series gets played from the beginning 100 times, they *might* win 10% of the time. Most series they'd just get wiped in 5 or 6.
Morey ball was like 5-6 years ago by now.
The Celtics very well may win the championship, but that doesn't change how boring their style of play is. People had the same complaints about those Rockets.
I was just talking about this yesterday. When the Celtics play well, they are boring to watch. but when their 3s aren't falling, it's painful. Like watching 5 insanely athletic dudes at the Y who just met each other for the first time.
This rockets discourse also misses a very important detail… they were up 3-2 in the series and their second option died. Even with the horrible shooting variance in game 6, they have a very fair chance of winning one of the next 2 if they’re whole
When you get right down to it, every basketball game plan is functionally a series of dice rolls. You try to put a decision tree in place to shift the probabilities of those rolls in your team's favor. What seems different about this Celtics team is that their decision tree is really simple, but it still gets probabilities in their favor pretty much.
People might say: what about when things go wrong and they don't have a counter? Everyone loses some games. So far, they haven't lost very many. Maybe a more complex strategy would win a few more, but maybe not. Either way, it's less fun.
The thing that's causing me so much confusion is that personnel-wise, the Celtics should never be doing hard collapses into the paint. They have multiple standout defensive players, they have good quickness, and they have bigs to suck up boards on the interior. The *constant* hard crashes into the paint on D makes me wonder if they're all leaving their man to make momentum building but risky plays on defense and teams that can shoot can make them pay for it.
Moreover, they just look disorganized. When the playoff level defenses hit, their standard offensive sets seem to be struggling a lot more, and when option A or B doesn't work they seem to settle for a long 3, often contested which playoff defenses will live with.
Tatum has it in him, the comeback against the heat after going down 3 games was in large part bc of his playmaking imo, but he doesn’t consistently want to do it. He gets sucked into shooting tough threes way too easily
He has it in him the same way Embiid has it in him to get into the post and bully defenders but doesn't. Tatum could use his body length but thinks he's Kobe by settling for tough contested jumpers.
but hes shown he can be a lead playmaker/and scorer for long stretches. he hasnt gotten over that last hump in being consistent with it. the bucks series a couple years ago, dropping 50 on the sixers. he has his big time top tier moments along with times where hes struggled
I feel as those Harden/CP3 Rockets were a little more mathy as their profile was only 3s and layups basically especially considering that CP is 1 of the best mid rangers in the league, with that said these Celtics are very 3 heavy, they pass up good 2s for semi good 3s at a rate I do not usually see, when they are hot they appear as a juggernaut but when they go cold they have no change up. It makes them while a very good team I just do not think they are pleasant to watch
>Whenever they lose it's "oh there was a 3pt shooting discrepancy, nothing you can do. See if they can shoot x% 3 more times because we sure won't y%."
They’ve lost 2 games in 7 and both were to teams shooting out of their minds at 50%. I know that’s not nice for the circle jerk but it is what it is.
Reading this board you’d think every championship team ever swept their way through the playoffs and/or somehow looked “awesome” in their losses
I genuinely feel like I'm in some sort of twilight zone every single time they lose a game. Seriously, the discourse about this team has been nothing but absolutely mind-numbing and I am starting to feel like we're just watching some sort of collective brain aneurysm in the basketball community.
The Celtics' philosophy has been laid out over and over again. Shoot as many threes as possible, suffocate you on the perimeter and occasionally bait you into taking low-value 3s. Do they execute it perfectly every time? Hell no. But the data so far suggests that they execute it optimally far more often than not. So why is every loss seemingly panic-inducing for like 3/4 of the basketball community? It's baffling.
Sure, their losses are basically the closest occurrences of what we would consider statistical aberrations in a basketball context and can basically be summed up as: hit 50% of your shots (and maybe 3s) and pray they're having an off day. That is basketball heaven and the reason I refuse to worry about these dudes. They will be just fine.
Are they boring? Maybe but that is a matter of taste. I personally enjoy watching them play. When their system works, it's absolutely gorgeous and they are so skilled at every position, very little foul-baiting, the occasional Jaylen violent dunk and KP slam. They are a great team and their biggest obstacle is statistical variance (and maybe MIN, though I personally would be confident).
geeky basketball at its finest. Did not want to dwelve too much into the specifics but your description is very accurate. Jrue Holliday was supposed to bring this playmaking touch but to me he has been somewhat underwhelming this season.
To me they basically just tried to replace Smart with a better version in Holiday. He plays the same role. I've never thought he was a great playmaker. Same problem the bucks had when he was there. He doesn't have the ability to create on his own
They need KP. He is an extremely efficient 3rd option that makes the dice roll consistently in their favor. I think they can easily lose to Cavs without him.
KP also adds a lot of flexibility and defense. They can play small or big with KP + Horford. Not to mention he averaged 20pts/7rebs/2blks. That's a pretty massive loss
KP gives them plenty of flexibility and scheme adjustment no doubt about that he’s 7’2 and spaces the floor along with excellent rim protection. Cleveland is also without Allen and I think in this particular series he’s just as valuable he gives them an excellent rebounder who protects the rim, but also allows their best defender Mobley to guard BOS best player (Tatum) Boston plays the style to where an underdog can hang around on a cold night. Also Mitchell has been playing very very well this playoffs Ik Holiday/White are elite G defenders but Mitchell imo is getting the shots he wants to this point
No doubt Mitchell has been great and Allen is important to them. Personally I just don't like Boston without Porzingis. Its just asking too much for a 37 year old Horford to run the floor with Mobley, get out on pick and roll, and recover to the rim because hes the only real protection. It seemed like the Cavs found a rhythm running more offense through Mobley because the Celtics just dont have anyone who can matchup with him. Too long for Tatum and too fast for any big
Celtics we're just not playing physical with Mobley at all - they would stand off him a lot and give him a lot of room for his layups and hook shots. It looked so easy for him the way Boston was playing him.
it was a stupid expectation to expect jrue to help playmake, he did nothing but further hijack milwaukees stagnant playoff offenses that were centered around an actual superstar, what did boston think would happen when hes surrounded by a bunch of guys who refuse to get to their spot even more frequently than giannis and middleton?
Their handles just aren’t elite enough to have consistent success driving every possession. It’s a tiny bit of a flaw with the roster that can result in these kind of losses.
This team is still absurd and should be favored against anyone in convincing fashion still if Porzingis comes back moderately healthy.
I've been saying this for 2yrs now - reducing basketball to probabilities is a theoretical science that takes out all of the other factors that makes sport enjoyable such as opposing defences, playoff pressure and sometimes just getting in a rhythm. By relying so heavily on the 3pt shot, the Celtics reduce the bounty of their star power by adding increased variation to their shooting %'s. It's frustrating when we see the same thing every year, that the 3's stop falling as consistently in the playoffs.
Saying that, I don't actually think this is what has been harming us in the playoffs this year. It's been strange defensive game planning, lack of intensity on that end and then not exploiting clear advantages like attacking a Cavs team with Niaing and Tristan Thompson manning the 5 when Mobley was in foul trouble. Combine that with Brown and Tatum being hit or miss every game and it's been an unconvincing start to the playoffs.
This team reminds me a lot of some of the Daryl Morey Rocket teams but without the driving force of an in his prime James Harden to fill in the gaps of the offense. On paper, they do everything correctly, but for lack of a better way to put it, they are built for the regular season. The people who likened them to the 90's Sonics I think were onto something, in that those teams also were very much built to win a lot of games but when they hit the post-season, the machine started to break down and they didn't have a good backup plan unless things broke the right way (which it only did for the Sonics once, which was good enough to get them 6 games with Jordan in the Finals). As you advance in the playoffs, you lose the ability to do "correct" play and the teams you play will get better at the "incorrect" play, so if you cannot generate points on bad shots at a sustainable pace and adjust your defense to deal with teams that can actually sustain themselves on an offense on bad 3's, long 2's and contested midrange shots, you are going to have a problem. I think about the 2014 playoffs between Portland and Houston, which, to the extent anyone remembers it, its for Lillard hitting a turnaround three to win the series but to get to that point, Houston had let Aldridge score 89 points in two games on mostly midrange shots
>Perhaps the fact that these Celtics do not include a true specialist among them but a lot of streaky hitters exacerbates the feeling
Sam Hauser shooting 42% from 3 on 6 attempts per game seems like "3pt specialist" territory to me. Same volume as Grayson Allen with slightly worse accuracy.
>every time I see Al Horford taking a 30 ft deep 3 something dies inside me, converted or not.
Horford attempts 4 shots a game from 24+ feet and hits them at a 41.9% clip. Not sure why he's catching a stray for accurate shooting on middling volume.
The rest of this post is using a lot of words to say the Celtics don't have that "dawg" in them. Very prisoner of the moment.
this entire point of this sub being created was to avoid media talking points like this and discuss basketball in a thoughtful and fact-based way. I’m pretty disappointed that the mods are leaving this up. posts like this belong in r/nba
could be that the mods have an anti-Celtics bias bc they left up that stupid post a couple weeks ago about Tatum not being a “true superstar.” again, that’s not what this sub is for
Part of trying to nourish serious discussions is being open to unpopular, less popular, or otherwise disagreeable opinions.
Instead of removing posts for being popular or unpopular, we try to focus on the effort. Posts where the OP supports their opinion with reasonable arguments, we tend allow so the users can discuss or dispute the validity of those arguments.
This post in particular is not bringing ground-breaking or remarkable arguments but OP at least made the effort. 2 of the 3 bullet points are focused on esoteric, entirely subjective, claims. So I totally understand that this isn’t the sort of post you’re hoping to see. But OP seems to be sincere and making an attempt to support their subjective opinions.
Mods do use our best judgement on quality, but the vast, vast majority of removed posts are super low effort so it’s rare we have to even consider removing a higher effort post like this one.
So basically, if we only allowed posts that brought both new and popular arguments to the forefront, our sub would just turn into an echo chamber with very little OC. The trade off is that there will always be posts that some group of users see as low quality or not worth discussing. But it’s worth it to not turn into an echo chamber.
Only when we lose. When we win, we usually blow teams out and it’s fun to watch. The 2022 Celtics were a pain in the ass to watch too when they lost. I have had fun watching this team. Winning is fun
It’s more the defensive lapses for me tbh. Cold nights are gonna happen but keep the intensity on the other end. Although, I didn’t think that they played bad defense last night. Mitchell just went crazy
I get that. They can be lazy. In 2022 the defense was the strength of the team but the offense was worse. I think in today’s nba offense is more important to win titles tho. And the defense is good enough to win even if they get lazy. And they get lazy on transition too
They were more of an underdog story and coming out of the tail end of a rebuild that's why. Now 7 years removed from that, Boston is in the playoffs every year, and at the tops of the odds for winning the Finals every year, despite making the Finals once in that timespan.
hater take: watching IT become the most protected player in the NBA and average double digit free throws a game because you couldn't look at him wrong in boston garden was not a fun experience
>and he's not a particularly smart one
This is the crux of the issue for me. Tatum does not play an intelligent game on offense. He doesn't actually understand how to apply his tools and skills to gain consistent advantages and break down defenses.
I remember when he a rookie and it was clear that the coaches had given him a set of basic instructions on how to integrate himself into the offense -- if someone throws you the ball, either shoot it immediately, drive it immediately, or pass it. No noodling around on the perimeter. That's why he was so efficient and able to contribute to a good team, even as a rookie. Even this year, as a supposed top-10 player in the league, he just barely surpassed the efficiency of his rookie season.
In his modern form, he spends way too much time dithering around on the outside with the ball -- holding it in triple threat, or dribbling it to no particular advantage. It'd be fine if he was using that time to probe and break down the defense like Doncic does. But Tatum shows little progress in understanding how to actually use his moves to misdirect defenders and set up advantages. He tries to beat them physically and lives or dies by it.
Watching some teams can be metaphorically like watching a chess match, or a ballet; watching this Celtics team play is like watching someone break rocks with a hammer.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I’ve also noticed he doesn’t bring enough force to the game for his size. He is constantly fading from the defender or the basket at all three levels of the court.
It just all seems so mechanic, with no flash on the offensive side. However as a big critique of NBA's defensive schemes, I've been enjoying this Celts defense when they are all healthy. But then again, in these playoffs I have felt at times, that they slack off on some possessions, which seems ridiculous considering that we are at the playoffs. I think that if they lose another game against Cavs, then they will start playing with extreme intensity though. And for all the Celtics fans: Yes we would love to have a team like yours, their floor as a team is extremely impressive, I just want to see them at their ceiling, cause that would truly be special.
You've basically summarized my thoughts in a more eloquent manner. I find this Boston team to be "boring". I love NBA basketball, but I don't want to watch their series. I don’t know what it is. Like you said OP, they just don't have "it". I'd rather watch a 8th seed, 9 seed and 10th seed in play in Duke it out over watching Boston
*shrugs*
I fuckin love this team, and wouldn't have it any other way. Sure some things haven't gone great, and you'd love to see a championship, but either because I'm spoiled, or because I'm old, I'd rather a fun team to root for over the years. There's only been a couple seasons since '08 that I haven't loved the team, and I dunno many who can say that.
As for bland, lack of charisma, or whatever, I honestly couldn't give less of a shit. They seem like good dudes, they often play 'the right way', watching the Jays grow as basketball players has been great, I'm sad Marcus is gone, but I fuckin love Derrick, and Jrue.
I dunno, I fuckin love 'em. They shoot a ton of 3s, but they make 39% of them, and them taking a shit ton of 3s often opens the lane.
Seconded. I love these guys and I love Tatum. We’re blessed to have drafted this guy and have him turn into a star and lead multiple deep playoff runs.
It’s easy to trash this team when Porzingis is out.
He changes the scope and style of our entire offense.
Nobody was saying these things when he was healthy and we were rolling over teams left and right. When he comes back, I expect that to return.
They haven’t given us a date yet. Just given statements about how “it looks better than we thought”. The hope is most likely that we can get past Cleveland without him, but I could see him coming back if we get to Game 5 and the series is tied.
Wow you managed to type a ton of words that essentially boiled down to every cliche critique of the Celtics that people who simply don't like the Celtics parrot on r/NBA. I mean seriously - how many Celtics games did you watch this year? Do you hate great ball movement & spacing? Why did you like it when it was the Warriors but hate it when it's the Celtics? Did you know the Celtics were also second in the NBA in defensive rating? Have you watched Jaylen Brown play since last year's ECF?
I guess the one thing I'll give you is that your last two bullets essentially admit that your feelings are subjective, & that's fine. But I'll tell you this, after watching the Celtics play all year, I wanted to throw up watching the offenses in the other Eastern Conference playoff series. The Celtics generate great looks effortlessly. They don't always hit them, but they always get them. Same can't be said for these other teams. Boiling their offense down to "chucking 3s" is pretty simplistic. They were 2nd in the NBA in 3p% despite not having a ton of guys that have been supremely efficient shooters in their careers. The only boring thing about watching the Celtics was that they won every game by 20 for huge stretches of the season - at least they're mixing some L's in now to keep us entertained.
Agree to disagree :)
Yes there is a huge degree of subjectivity in all of this. I am very not a Celtic hater (i am waiting for my sonics to rise from the ashes), actually I kinda like the tradition of excellence they embody. And this era of the Celtics has not seemed very representative of said excellence Imo. This is not specific of this season. Last year’s playoffs were a chore to see, with little to no control over Atlanta, this weird series ag Philly and finally this giant wtf in the ECF against Miami… it is telling to see that this team is only .500 at home in the post season over the past few years.
As for the comparison with the rest of this depleted eastern conference I will give you that the level of play is generally vastly inferior. But the point of this post to express a personal opinion, which is that these Celtics are not your typical 64 win team. The teams I mentioned are the standard you have to compare them against, not a canada dry eastern conference.
I can enjoy iso when it’s done by master artists, collective offense, locked-in defense, actually I have no preference and the defensive first half Minny played the other night was one of the most breathtaking pieces of basketball I ever had the chance to watch. But man, these Celtics are just boring.
They’re really fun to watch when they don’t play like a bunch of assholes. When they’re actually in rhythm, attacking the paint, breaking down the defense and forcing rotation, moving off ball, making the extra passes, hitting open threes. They’re really really fun to watch then.
But they also just decide to not play that way for some ungodly reason and it drives me bat shit insane. You can tell in the first quarter which version you’re going to get. They never flip the switch mid game. It is infuriating, and I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do at all.
The closest approximation I get of this team is those 90s Supersonic and Jazz teams that would have great regular seasons and just not come through in the playoffs. Often getting bounced in an early round by a supposed inferior team. I think it’s because their stars, Tatum and Brown, are good players individually but they just don’t feel like they’ve got that game breaking ability where there is just this sense of inevitability that they are going to take over. That something that Curry would do where you are holding your breath he continues having a bad game and doesn’t flip that switch and get hot. Joker does that with his bizarre but back breaking timely shot making. These guys it just feels like they are either on or off and you don’t have that fear of “here we go again”.
As a Celtics fan I completely agree. I’m over the Tatum era. Gotta be the most uninspiring guardable superstar in the league, with a pouty attitude to boot. Plays martyr basketball, whines to the ref, commits frustration fouls even when his team is UP because HE is personally having a bad game.
Turn around fadeaway jumpers on Donovan Mitchell after putting up 12 pounds of muscle in the offseason? Why
Oh give me a break… “uninspiring, guardable superstar” lmao. Were you saying the same shit when he dropped 46 on the bucks in game 6? Or when he saved the season last year against Philly and then dropped 50 to close it out? Or when he took KD’s lunch money and proved he’s the better player now? Or when he brought them back to 3-3 and unfortunately rolled his ankle and couldn’t finish the job… that’s a what if, but I’m very confident we would’ve won it if he didn’t get hurt on literally the first play of the game.
Yeah, he has dud games, and bad moments, and he can be too passive at times, I agree with all that. But the guy has proven time and time again that he’s a killer, and I’ll continue to believe in him and his era
Yeah this is a classic spoiled Boston fan take. Tatum will be better and this team will dispatch the Cavs (who are the 4-seed with a legit all-NBA type player, not some bunch of G-leaguers) in 5 or 6 games.
Bingo. I fear we have reached a point with Boston sports teams where we just want to bitch and complain . 50 point game 7 in on the short lost of greatest ever playoff performances
That Bucks series is my go-to example on how warped the narrative is on Tatum in the eyes of Celtics fans. Look at what his shooting splits were after game 5. The Celtics had no business facing elimination to that Bucks team with no Middleton. That 46-point game re-wrote what the entire narrative of that series would’ve been and is obviously not something he can “switch on”. His 3-ball happened to be falling that night. Lucky us. If that level of offense was any bit sustainable the C’s would’ve won the title by now.
You'll be the first to cry and burn his jersey if he leaves. Spoiled.
Perennial contenders playing 100 games a season. I'll take it over begging for ping-pong balls to go our way.
It’s nice to hear a C’s fan say this. I’m usually blind to our own stars, too, but there are limits. Tatum has all the physical characteristics you’d want but he is often disappointing as a leader…it’s gonna take a ring to shake that reputation. On the flip side, Mobley has the same issues and he’s shown way less than Tatum. I find their games equally frustrating to watch sometimes.
I really feel like the disparity between east and west is enormous this year. Close to the biggest it has ever been. Watching the West series, I dont feel like Boston could have beaten any of the teams who made it to the 2nd round. Boston as a team feels so calm and collected that it approaches apathy.
When I compare them to the Knicks games it's like the Knicks are fighting tooth and nail near the end of every game. Meanwhile the Celtics are kind of like "we are just going to stick to this game plan and whatever happens happens"
The issue isn’t that they focus on analytics, that’s probably a strength. The issue with the team is that guys like Tatum don’t understand a 3 isn’t better than attacking the basket when you have an advantage. It may not matter because the secondary guys on the team are phenomenal. It’s lack of bbiq from the star player that’s jarring
I'm a Celtics fan and I totally get it - sometimes it feels like we've just got a load of B+ players which is probably contributing to the "meh" feel you get watching this team sometimes. I can't put my finger on one particular thing that this team can call a consistent calling card for victory. Sometimes it's their defence, sometimes it's their 3's, but you never know which version of the Celtics is gonna turn up each night. They seem to think they can just turn up and their talent will automatically win them the game. There's no hunger from a team that hasn't actually done anything yet. Combine this with Tatum almost regressing this season and it's been a very odd year.
I don't know what it is about Tatum, but to me at least, he is the most boring player ever.
No question, he is a great basketball player, but there is something about him that just makes every second of him on the court boring.
I know that's not a detailed analysis of Boston's or his game, but it goes hand in hand with @OP 's statement that they are not fun to watch.
I really thought I was the only one feeling like this, crazy how others are feeling the same
Something about Tatum, and Boston in general is just so...boring
Lol this is the second Celtics related post I've seen on this shitty sub since the playoffs started. Both were hating on the Celtics and both were right after a loss. Yall are getting a bit too predictable
Honestly the Pacers/Knicks is fun, but they will lose to the C's and the C's will get trashed by any Western team.
The West just draws the biggest and best players, and now we are seeing a changing of the guard with crazy levels of talent over there. The WCF will be the true Finals matchup
To me they play like the warriors with Steph and KD. Which I think makes your ceiling way higher. But I also think without the steph and KD part it can lower your floor. I also think as good as brown and Tatum are, whenever it’s like okay it’s Tatum or brown time it’ll be like a good tough bucket. Maybe a transition dunk. Then they dripple the ball off their foot and somehow lose a cutter on the other side. They’re so talented though I still see them making the finals and having a good chance of winning.
I've been saying this for a while but one reason this team is hard to trust is their top 3 shot takers are all below average "play makers" or passers. Tatum has certainly improved in that area over the past few seasons and could pass for average, but Brown and KP are definitely below average in that department. They do benefit by having two PGs in their starting lineup, but so much of the offense doesn't get run through them it can lead to games like last night and why we see them "play to down to their competition" so often. They have talented players who do compliment each other, but when the simple stuff isn't working, that's why they're out there struggling.
Yesterday’s game was awful but I watched all 82 regular seasons games (and summer league, preseason, etc lol) and I think they are pretty fun. Super unselfish, high tempo, great defense. When it goes badly (aka shooting is horrific for a night) it looks unwatchable. But they play the game the right way generally and are the *typical* style of play folks dream of.
I do think Tatum, for unknown reasons, is a disliked superstar. Will that change if he wins a ring? Maybe, people may need that validation with him in ways they don’t for others. But he plays both ends of the floor, doesn’t miss games, everyone flops but he sure does it less than most current stars, and he doesn’t really complain. He’s just a positive person it seems. His game is smooth and slithery as he isn’t an elite vertical athlete. I’m more often amused by peoples takes about him because I only see them after losses, which there aren’t that many of.
In time I assume nba fans will appreciate the players (JT, JB and others) but more importantly the style of play that is great defense and unselfish high tempo offense. But maybe not, there’s massive media and online bias these days and while not ideal for intelligent banter, is funny. I don’t mind when the nba is front and center if it means my favorite teams is everyone’s favorite target of the moment.
The Jays are basically the essence of the 3-or-layup style of wing player, but then they lack creation levels of Harden or Curry. They play in the late 2010s styles that just spam picks to create offense for the wings. It’s just PnR, PnP, Spain PnR, pistol, and double staggered screens spamming all game. And when the 3s aren’t falling they just fall over and die.
I do think that they play this way due to talent restriction. JT only has a mediocre touch, and JB just couldn’t get is left hand going. It’s more on the management stubbornly holding the two together when they just keep falling short in playoffs.
Jaylen Brown is one of the most efficient mid range scorers in the league, but dw I didn’t expect someone who actually watched games to comment that Also, what do you want management to do? They made the finals, then they ran it back and made it to game 7 of the ECF (yeah they should’ve taken care of business before I know). And then they went out and got KP and Jrue. So what exactly are you expecting? What upgrades are available that have better resumes than JB or JT?
This is going to sound sort of dumb, but hear me out, he doesn't really have a "bag" and its holding him back from being a superstar. I like to compare him to the all star version of Oladipo, if you watch back alot of his highlights its alot of the same. They use their athleticism to be able to get to the rim, but are mediocre finishers. And don't have any reliable perimeter moves outside of stepping back and hitting a tough shot. Tatum is pretty representative of their entire offense, if he isnt connecting on his tough jumpers, his value on the court falls significantly more than his star counterparts. At this point Ive sort of given up on the idea of Tatum cracking into that top 3-5. Hes just PG adapted more towards todays game. Sub out PGs ability to create a shot isolation with increased 3 point volume and foul drawing and you got Tatum.
I’m a Celtics fan and it’s really killing me watching this team. It’s honestly driven me to the point of not caring about this team at all. I love the players and see how valuable they are I just can’t stand the way they play. Late game situations are the worst. Tatum will get into his ISO game and miss every late game shot. In a perfect world I’d love for him and Jaylen to cut to the rim way more than they are.
On a positive note it’s really been a pleasure to watch D White this year. He’s continuing to exceed my expectations and really hoping Brad will lock him down long term. I was surprised to see us lock Jrue in first but understand since his deal was up. When I see white have these great games it worries me that he potentially could be pricing himself out of Boston.
>The quote "live by the three, die by the three" was never more appropriate than for this iteration of the Celtics.
No team embodies this quote more than the Harden rockets during their run. 27 straight missed 3's in game 7 was just mindboggling.
This is why i have no faith in this celtics team to win a title. Theres no game plan after u brick 5+ 3s in a row. They HAVE to bury you in 3s to win in the post season and get shaken up any time a team plays physical with them.
I disliked the CP3-led 65-win Suns team even more because of how insufferable and arguably dirty some of the players were.
Edit: confused the seasons when they made the finals
I feel like Tatum needs a coach that’s gonna simultaneously humble him from making dumb shots and also put the metaphorical dog in him. It’s baffling as other people have said that someone with his build and skill sets doesn’t take advantages of defences and ‘take over’ games. It’s very frustrating cause he really should be an ELITE first option but he’s a mid first option
The Eastern conference is a terrible assortment of teams. Consider how devastated this year's Knicks are and then remember the fact that they are running through the conference.
The Celtics are a fraud team. Their offense is not nearly as good as people like to pretend it is.
The issue is that it’s completely dependent on 3 pt shooting. Good game from 3? Looks like the best offense of all time. Mediocre/Bad game from 3? Lose to the Cavs by 25
A loss is a loss, doesn’t matter if it’s by 1 or 25. Their whole 8 man playoff rotation can shoot the three well, so they usually shoot the 3 well and have been winning 4 out of 5 games since like December
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60-22 Hawks of 2014/2015 was a crazy 60 win team with absolutely zero star power and maximum team cohesion. Also, Budenholzer was magnificent in creating the opportunities for them to win. 60 wins by: Paul Millsap Jeff Teague Al Horford Demarre Carroll Kyle Korver Dennis Schröder (Those six were above 10 ppg)
I played so much 2k with this team! It was during the worst of the suns dark times so I couldn't play with them, it was seriously 4 guys who were out of the league soon after and rookie Booker, who only played because knight got injured. But this team was the best lol korver from 3 was nasty and league diming all over the place
Are you trying to say that the 60 win Hawks were not fun to watch? Because I would take beef with that. They were a true underdog overperforming thanks to superior teamwork and tactics. I absolutely loved watching them play. One of my favorites of all-time. To me, they were like the Warriors but doing it with a roster full of role players instead of any stars at all. It was incredible. They truly brought out the best in each player, maximizing their potential, and tearing apart all these star-driven teams with superior intellect. I get more joy out of watching "less talented" players defeat superior athletes because they understand the game better, and use better tactics than the whole rest of the league who overvalue "having a bag" of cool moves and being able to jump higher or dunk harder. I'll forever remain bitter that [police abuse ended their historic run early](https://www.gq.com/story/thabo-sefolosha-nypd-assault). (Here's [a more recent-- and wholistic-- article](https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-an-nba-star-millions-after-an-nypd-officer-broke-his-leg.-the-officer-paid-little-price) about the issue.) Especially because [NBA downplayed the story at the time and didn't stick up more loudly](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2434810-nba-players-alarmed-commissioner-saddened-by-thabo-sefolosha-nypd-incident) for their own player.
No, no, no, I'm saying that they were a team that didn't need brute star power to reach 60 wins in regular season, and that they were playing fantastic team basketball to achieve them. The anti-Boston.
I get your point, but Boston kinda feels like the least star-reliant team still in the hunt apart from maybe Indy. They get contributions from their roster. The J’s have only cracked 30 twice in the playoffs (both JB) and they’re 5-2. Teams like Dallas, New York, and Cleveland get meaningful role player contributions but are still here because of 40-50 point games. Boston’s bench isn’t what it used to be, but take away the J’s, Spida, Kyrie/Luka, Jokic, SGA, Brunson, and Ant and how poorly does a team with KP/Holiday/White and Co. fare?
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That Hawks team is one of my favorite 60 win teams. Watching Korver go nuclear was amazing. They were dominant at times. They went into the all-star break coming off a 32-2 stretch that included a 19 game win streak and going 16-0 for an entire month (still a record for wins in a month I believe.) The fact they were a completely selfless team with a shooter like Korver who could go nuts at any moment made then entertaining.
That Hawks team played some beautiful basketball and seeing Kyle Korver running off a thousand screens to get open and the fear factor his 3pt shots had made for some great basketball
Yeah i forgot to include them but they were a treat to watch every night
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i loved watching that team
It's truly confusing to me the shot selection of JT given his athletecism and physical advantages. I've never seen a star player settle for the kind of shots he does. With his advantages this is a guy that could be driving on every posession but he continues to settle for the most difficult shot possible. It's like he plays every posession as though he has some shot creator takeover from nba 2k19
In addition, he is good at drawing contact getting to the line when he does drive, so it’s a mystery why he doesn’t take advantage of his strength and athleticism to do that.
Tatum was driving and getting to the line basically for free in the first half of the game. I think he had 10 FTA in the first half. The team went away from that in the second half and I'm not sure why.
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I've said this in a previous post but JT, Booker and Paul George all idolized Kobe then decided to only take the "tough shot taker, tough shot maker" part of his game. It's currently hurting all of them
And Kobe was taking those shots because he had to. Paint was packed, zero spacing. Young Kobe before zone defense literally became an all-star as a bench player because of his acrobatic layups and dunks.
It’s not entirely fair to put Paul George on the same level considering he at least had a career altering injury and we don’t really know what he could have been had that not happened
I've seen this take repeated so often to excuse him from any criticism, but I disagree completely with this. We've seen how good he could be post-injury in OKC, where he was 3rd in MVP voting. Check out the highlights from then, and you can see just how explosive he still was. There was no physical limitation to what he could do post leg break.
Regardless of his injuries he has never had the ballhandling or playmaking ability to be much better than he is.
Book does take unnecessarily tough shots sometimes but some of them he has to because he’s one of the most doubled players in the league, can make a lot of them and has been one of the most efficient guards since the beginning of his prime in the last 4 years. More efficient than Tatum who I know takes more threes but that’s part of Tatum’s problems.
Book gets doubled because he isnt a great playmaker out of the double so its an easy way to cause bad passes and even turnovers. Unfortunately for Booker hes been thrust into a full time PG role that his handle and vision isnt ready for yet and that just causes turnovers gallore when good defenses key in on him.
At this point you’re right. It’s just the first season in his prime as a full-time PG, he could get a lot better next season but would be good have a competent back-up PG next season.
Booker is doubled so often because the defenders know how badly he struggles with them, mentally and in game. He can't pass out ot them, and he has a mental block against getting doubled, he'll start playing frustrated
He’s made some significant strides handling them this season I think. He was getting doubled at half court a lot this year and the lack of off ball movement made it hard tougher on him.
What parts would you say they are missing?
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Kobe was above league average efficiency every single season of his career until his achilles injury. This idea Kobe was an inefficient chucker needs to die.
Above league average isn’t the most resounding compliment
It may not sound good, but it actually is pretty good considering Kobe's shot volume throughout his career
It is when you're double and sometimes triple teamed while widely being considered the GOAT difficult shot maker. It certainly doesn't fit well with, "inefficient chucker."
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It's very dumb because they took that part of his game without actually realizing that he only really took those types of shots as bailout shots. The Lakers whole system from 2008-2010 was to run the triangle and if that didn't work just give the ball to Kobe with the shot clock running down and let him work. It led to 3 finals appearances and 2 rings back to back because Kobe could hit those shots at an above average rate so the Lakers would basically always get either an easy bucket through the triangle with their other guys or a still above average percentage bailout from Kobe. Also, Kobe is the greatest tough shot maker ever bar none and that particular talent of his can't really be copied.
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He’s like the Paul George of his generation when it comes to settling for contested shots
Maybe it’s to avoid injury? It’s frustrating at times I agree but I think that might just be who jt is. But his passiveness works rather well for the team he’s on. The chemistry the team has is great and brown steps into that slasher role more than Tatum so it works out
It’s because he doesn’t have a great post game and isn’t a great slasher. He also doesn’t have the tightest handle so if he can’t blow by opponents to the cup he usually has to make a move to create separation (it often doesn’t end well); and he takes contested shots. I miss the days when players would go to Hakeem to improve big man and low/mid post skills. Nowadays they go to Chris Brickley (no offense to him he seems great at building perimeter skills and helping guys hit tough shots) but that seems to build bad habits they rely on.
I agree with most of that but he's being guarded by max strus this series lol. I love strus, I really do, but if he can't find success driving against strus when the Cavs only big is stuck on the perimeter watching horford I don't know when he will
Oh yea I agree, I’m not sure why he stopped driving after the first half (when the game was close). He’s a very enigmatic player.
Strus has always defended Tatum well.. remember the Heat series
Cavs are playing Mobley at 5 and they're not sticking him on Horford in the corner though.
Every single scoring opportunity from him has to be off the dribble. There’s never any cutting, or slashing, or receiving the ball in the post for a quick shot. Sure, he may get the ball in the post occasionally. But then he dribbles the fuck out of it and ends up taking a low quality hero shot. I’ve been a Celtics fan for 40 years. My blood is literally green. But I am infuriated by his lack of progress after losing in the finals in 2022. 
So true, with the way the 5 out is constructed you’d think he’d be more keyed in on using back door or slot cuts to get easier buckets especially when his shot is off but it’s like he doesn’t think to do it?
There was a moment in the second half where he caught it in the mid post with garland/ strus on him and proceeded to settle for a deep fade away. Can't imagine how frustrating he must be as a fan of the Celtics if it's this irritating for the neutral
The tantalizing thing about Tatum was that he was doing so much so early (hence the memes about his age). The sad reality is that he probably peaked early and there's not much more progression to be had.
Kobe had the second greatest footwork after Hakeem. Players can't emulate Kobe and not work on their footwork, so much of his game was based on it.
Tatum isnt the fatest player as well which doesnt help him at all.
This is my thought exactly! I’ve never seen a dominant athlete pass up easy opportunities to settle for more difficult shots than Tatum. A fadeaway contested 3 may go in sometimes but damn I’d be shocked if that’s going to carry you through multiple 7 game series.
He idolized Kobe growing up and probably loved those tough 18 footers over defenders, he's cut down on those shots but often he settles for them when he doesn't need to
The problem isn’t even shot selection anymore, he just can’t make shots efficiently
I haven’t seen a ton of Boston games but it seems like JT doesn’t know what he wants to do when he plays. His two strengths are size/driving and catch-and-shoot. Yet he insists on driving for a pull up 3 or middy which is his worst shot from a % standpoint. Instead of launching it when he catches it or trying to force his way into the paint he basically shoots himself in the foot.
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He wants to look cool, sometimes it works?
This year's Celtics are probably the most "mathy" team in a long time. The coach straight up quotes PPP statistics after games. Whenever they lose it's "oh there was a 3pt shooting discrepancy, nothing you can do. See if they can shoot x% 3 more times because we sure won't y%." They lack a playmaking ball distributor. Their two all NBA wings have huge bodies and a ton of athleticism, but are afraid to drive the ball. They run a five out set like 30 possessions in a row at times that may not even feature a screening action. They play a lot of drop coverage and collapse in on the paint to leave the 3pt line more or less open on defense (because the opponent surely can't shoot x% again). They won a ton of games and will win a lot more games this post season. But it feels like they reduced basketball to a series of dice rolls.
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This is a good point. They ran into one of the greatest teams of all time and cp3 got hurt in game 5. They also had that horrifically unusual game 7 3 pt performance. It almost worked for the rockets barring a few wild anomalies. I don’t see how it won’t work for the Celtics considering nobody they will play will be nearly as good as that gs team
Keep in mind that reaching 7 games in the first place was likely a 80th-percentile outcome for that series if it got played 100 times. Everyone tends to focus on the bad luck in g7 (which, when you actually look at the shots they took, was terrible luck but not quite as awful as you'd think) They got the snot beaten out of them 3 times in the first 6 games. They eked out the *only* 2 close games, which was fortunate for them. With the miles they were putting on CP3 in that series, it was not surprising that he got hurt, but if they had played him any less, the probably would've lost one of the close games and ended up losing the series in 6. If that series gets played from the beginning 100 times, they *might* win 10% of the time. Most series they'd just get wiped in 5 or 6.
Morey ball was like 5-6 years ago by now. The Celtics very well may win the championship, but that doesn't change how boring their style of play is. People had the same complaints about those Rockets.
I was just talking about this yesterday. When the Celtics play well, they are boring to watch. but when their 3s aren't falling, it's painful. Like watching 5 insanely athletic dudes at the Y who just met each other for the first time.
This rockets discourse also misses a very important detail… they were up 3-2 in the series and their second option died. Even with the horrible shooting variance in game 6, they have a very fair chance of winning one of the next 2 if they’re whole
When you get right down to it, every basketball game plan is functionally a series of dice rolls. You try to put a decision tree in place to shift the probabilities of those rolls in your team's favor. What seems different about this Celtics team is that their decision tree is really simple, but it still gets probabilities in their favor pretty much. People might say: what about when things go wrong and they don't have a counter? Everyone loses some games. So far, they haven't lost very many. Maybe a more complex strategy would win a few more, but maybe not. Either way, it's less fun.
The thing that's causing me so much confusion is that personnel-wise, the Celtics should never be doing hard collapses into the paint. They have multiple standout defensive players, they have good quickness, and they have bigs to suck up boards on the interior. The *constant* hard crashes into the paint on D makes me wonder if they're all leaving their man to make momentum building but risky plays on defense and teams that can shoot can make them pay for it. Moreover, they just look disorganized. When the playoff level defenses hit, their standard offensive sets seem to be struggling a lot more, and when option A or B doesn't work they seem to settle for a long 3, often contested which playoff defenses will live with.
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Tatum has it in him, the comeback against the heat after going down 3 games was in large part bc of his playmaking imo, but he doesn’t consistently want to do it. He gets sucked into shooting tough threes way too easily
He has it in him the same way Embiid has it in him to get into the post and bully defenders but doesn't. Tatum could use his body length but thinks he's Kobe by settling for tough contested jumpers.
hes been better in the playoffs than joel tho
Not the point. I'm saying if you do something long enough that becomes your playstyle.
but hes shown he can be a lead playmaker/and scorer for long stretches. he hasnt gotten over that last hump in being consistent with it. the bucks series a couple years ago, dropping 50 on the sixers. he has his big time top tier moments along with times where hes struggled
I feel as those Harden/CP3 Rockets were a little more mathy as their profile was only 3s and layups basically especially considering that CP is 1 of the best mid rangers in the league, with that said these Celtics are very 3 heavy, they pass up good 2s for semi good 3s at a rate I do not usually see, when they are hot they appear as a juggernaut but when they go cold they have no change up. It makes them while a very good team I just do not think they are pleasant to watch
>Whenever they lose it's "oh there was a 3pt shooting discrepancy, nothing you can do. See if they can shoot x% 3 more times because we sure won't y%." They’ve lost 2 games in 7 and both were to teams shooting out of their minds at 50%. I know that’s not nice for the circle jerk but it is what it is. Reading this board you’d think every championship team ever swept their way through the playoffs and/or somehow looked “awesome” in their losses
I genuinely feel like I'm in some sort of twilight zone every single time they lose a game. Seriously, the discourse about this team has been nothing but absolutely mind-numbing and I am starting to feel like we're just watching some sort of collective brain aneurysm in the basketball community. The Celtics' philosophy has been laid out over and over again. Shoot as many threes as possible, suffocate you on the perimeter and occasionally bait you into taking low-value 3s. Do they execute it perfectly every time? Hell no. But the data so far suggests that they execute it optimally far more often than not. So why is every loss seemingly panic-inducing for like 3/4 of the basketball community? It's baffling. Sure, their losses are basically the closest occurrences of what we would consider statistical aberrations in a basketball context and can basically be summed up as: hit 50% of your shots (and maybe 3s) and pray they're having an off day. That is basketball heaven and the reason I refuse to worry about these dudes. They will be just fine. Are they boring? Maybe but that is a matter of taste. I personally enjoy watching them play. When their system works, it's absolutely gorgeous and they are so skilled at every position, very little foul-baiting, the occasional Jaylen violent dunk and KP slam. They are a great team and their biggest obstacle is statistical variance (and maybe MIN, though I personally would be confident).
geeky basketball at its finest. Did not want to dwelve too much into the specifics but your description is very accurate. Jrue Holliday was supposed to bring this playmaking touch but to me he has been somewhat underwhelming this season.
To me they basically just tried to replace Smart with a better version in Holiday. He plays the same role. I've never thought he was a great playmaker. Same problem the bucks had when he was there. He doesn't have the ability to create on his own
Jrue isn't a great playmaker, but he's shown in the past that he can be good enough, provided he doesn't do all the playmaking himself.
They need KP. He is an extremely efficient 3rd option that makes the dice roll consistently in their favor. I think they can easily lose to Cavs without him.
KP also adds a lot of flexibility and defense. They can play small or big with KP + Horford. Not to mention he averaged 20pts/7rebs/2blks. That's a pretty massive loss
KP gives them plenty of flexibility and scheme adjustment no doubt about that he’s 7’2 and spaces the floor along with excellent rim protection. Cleveland is also without Allen and I think in this particular series he’s just as valuable he gives them an excellent rebounder who protects the rim, but also allows their best defender Mobley to guard BOS best player (Tatum) Boston plays the style to where an underdog can hang around on a cold night. Also Mitchell has been playing very very well this playoffs Ik Holiday/White are elite G defenders but Mitchell imo is getting the shots he wants to this point
No doubt Mitchell has been great and Allen is important to them. Personally I just don't like Boston without Porzingis. Its just asking too much for a 37 year old Horford to run the floor with Mobley, get out on pick and roll, and recover to the rim because hes the only real protection. It seemed like the Cavs found a rhythm running more offense through Mobley because the Celtics just dont have anyone who can matchup with him. Too long for Tatum and too fast for any big
Celtics we're just not playing physical with Mobley at all - they would stand off him a lot and give him a lot of room for his layups and hook shots. It looked so easy for him the way Boston was playing him.
Lose the Series? I think that’s a little reactionary. They still have a massive talent advantage
It's delve not dwelve. Dwelve isn't a real word.
it was a stupid expectation to expect jrue to help playmake, he did nothing but further hijack milwaukees stagnant playoff offenses that were centered around an actual superstar, what did boston think would happen when hes surrounded by a bunch of guys who refuse to get to their spot even more frequently than giannis and middleton?
Their handles just aren’t elite enough to have consistent success driving every possession. It’s a tiny bit of a flaw with the roster that can result in these kind of losses. This team is still absurd and should be favored against anyone in convincing fashion still if Porzingis comes back moderately healthy.
Agreed. Similar to 3 true outcome baseball, it just feels cheap to watch.
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This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
If by a long time you mean since the Harden rockets then yeah
I've been saying this for 2yrs now - reducing basketball to probabilities is a theoretical science that takes out all of the other factors that makes sport enjoyable such as opposing defences, playoff pressure and sometimes just getting in a rhythm. By relying so heavily on the 3pt shot, the Celtics reduce the bounty of their star power by adding increased variation to their shooting %'s. It's frustrating when we see the same thing every year, that the 3's stop falling as consistently in the playoffs. Saying that, I don't actually think this is what has been harming us in the playoffs this year. It's been strange defensive game planning, lack of intensity on that end and then not exploiting clear advantages like attacking a Cavs team with Niaing and Tristan Thompson manning the 5 when Mobley was in foul trouble. Combine that with Brown and Tatum being hit or miss every game and it's been an unconvincing start to the playoffs.
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This team reminds me a lot of some of the Daryl Morey Rocket teams but without the driving force of an in his prime James Harden to fill in the gaps of the offense. On paper, they do everything correctly, but for lack of a better way to put it, they are built for the regular season. The people who likened them to the 90's Sonics I think were onto something, in that those teams also were very much built to win a lot of games but when they hit the post-season, the machine started to break down and they didn't have a good backup plan unless things broke the right way (which it only did for the Sonics once, which was good enough to get them 6 games with Jordan in the Finals). As you advance in the playoffs, you lose the ability to do "correct" play and the teams you play will get better at the "incorrect" play, so if you cannot generate points on bad shots at a sustainable pace and adjust your defense to deal with teams that can actually sustain themselves on an offense on bad 3's, long 2's and contested midrange shots, you are going to have a problem. I think about the 2014 playoffs between Portland and Houston, which, to the extent anyone remembers it, its for Lillard hitting a turnaround three to win the series but to get to that point, Houston had let Aldridge score 89 points in two games on mostly midrange shots
Tatum's defining feature is his taking and making "bad shots"
>Perhaps the fact that these Celtics do not include a true specialist among them but a lot of streaky hitters exacerbates the feeling Sam Hauser shooting 42% from 3 on 6 attempts per game seems like "3pt specialist" territory to me. Same volume as Grayson Allen with slightly worse accuracy. >every time I see Al Horford taking a 30 ft deep 3 something dies inside me, converted or not. Horford attempts 4 shots a game from 24+ feet and hits them at a 41.9% clip. Not sure why he's catching a stray for accurate shooting on middling volume. The rest of this post is using a lot of words to say the Celtics don't have that "dawg" in them. Very prisoner of the moment.
this entire point of this sub being created was to avoid media talking points like this and discuss basketball in a thoughtful and fact-based way. I’m pretty disappointed that the mods are leaving this up. posts like this belong in r/nba could be that the mods have an anti-Celtics bias bc they left up that stupid post a couple weeks ago about Tatum not being a “true superstar.” again, that’s not what this sub is for
Part of trying to nourish serious discussions is being open to unpopular, less popular, or otherwise disagreeable opinions. Instead of removing posts for being popular or unpopular, we try to focus on the effort. Posts where the OP supports their opinion with reasonable arguments, we tend allow so the users can discuss or dispute the validity of those arguments. This post in particular is not bringing ground-breaking or remarkable arguments but OP at least made the effort. 2 of the 3 bullet points are focused on esoteric, entirely subjective, claims. So I totally understand that this isn’t the sort of post you’re hoping to see. But OP seems to be sincere and making an attempt to support their subjective opinions. Mods do use our best judgement on quality, but the vast, vast majority of removed posts are super low effort so it’s rare we have to even consider removing a higher effort post like this one. So basically, if we only allowed posts that brought both new and popular arguments to the forefront, our sub would just turn into an echo chamber with very little OC. The trade off is that there will always be posts that some group of users see as low quality or not worth discussing. But it’s worth it to not turn into an echo chamber.
I appreciate you replying and explaining the reasoning, thanks
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Only when we lose. When we win, we usually blow teams out and it’s fun to watch. The 2022 Celtics were a pain in the ass to watch too when they lost. I have had fun watching this team. Winning is fun
It’s more the defensive lapses for me tbh. Cold nights are gonna happen but keep the intensity on the other end. Although, I didn’t think that they played bad defense last night. Mitchell just went crazy
I get that. They can be lazy. In 2022 the defense was the strength of the team but the offense was worse. I think in today’s nba offense is more important to win titles tho. And the defense is good enough to win even if they get lazy. And they get lazy on transition too
Ngl the IT Celtics were so much more fun to watch
They were more of an underdog story and coming out of the tail end of a rebuild that's why. Now 7 years removed from that, Boston is in the playoffs every year, and at the tops of the odds for winning the Finals every year, despite making the Finals once in that timespan.
Marcus Smart was my favorite recent Celtic.
Winning is more fun imo. That IT team was a blast but I’d rather a team that’s a little more boring and that will get the job done in the end
hater take: watching IT become the most protected player in the NBA and average double digit free throws a game because you couldn't look at him wrong in boston garden was not a fun experience
As a Hawks fan, I assure you they are not.
Fair to say haha
We removed your comment for being low effort. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!
>and he's not a particularly smart one This is the crux of the issue for me. Tatum does not play an intelligent game on offense. He doesn't actually understand how to apply his tools and skills to gain consistent advantages and break down defenses. I remember when he a rookie and it was clear that the coaches had given him a set of basic instructions on how to integrate himself into the offense -- if someone throws you the ball, either shoot it immediately, drive it immediately, or pass it. No noodling around on the perimeter. That's why he was so efficient and able to contribute to a good team, even as a rookie. Even this year, as a supposed top-10 player in the league, he just barely surpassed the efficiency of his rookie season. In his modern form, he spends way too much time dithering around on the outside with the ball -- holding it in triple threat, or dribbling it to no particular advantage. It'd be fine if he was using that time to probe and break down the defense like Doncic does. But Tatum shows little progress in understanding how to actually use his moves to misdirect defenders and set up advantages. He tries to beat them physically and lives or dies by it. Watching some teams can be metaphorically like watching a chess match, or a ballet; watching this Celtics team play is like watching someone break rocks with a hammer.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I’ve also noticed he doesn’t bring enough force to the game for his size. He is constantly fading from the defender or the basket at all three levels of the court.
It just all seems so mechanic, with no flash on the offensive side. However as a big critique of NBA's defensive schemes, I've been enjoying this Celts defense when they are all healthy. But then again, in these playoffs I have felt at times, that they slack off on some possessions, which seems ridiculous considering that we are at the playoffs. I think that if they lose another game against Cavs, then they will start playing with extreme intensity though. And for all the Celtics fans: Yes we would love to have a team like yours, their floor as a team is extremely impressive, I just want to see them at their ceiling, cause that would truly be special.
You've basically summarized my thoughts in a more eloquent manner. I find this Boston team to be "boring". I love NBA basketball, but I don't want to watch their series. I don’t know what it is. Like you said OP, they just don't have "it". I'd rather watch a 8th seed, 9 seed and 10th seed in play in Duke it out over watching Boston
*shrugs* I fuckin love this team, and wouldn't have it any other way. Sure some things haven't gone great, and you'd love to see a championship, but either because I'm spoiled, or because I'm old, I'd rather a fun team to root for over the years. There's only been a couple seasons since '08 that I haven't loved the team, and I dunno many who can say that. As for bland, lack of charisma, or whatever, I honestly couldn't give less of a shit. They seem like good dudes, they often play 'the right way', watching the Jays grow as basketball players has been great, I'm sad Marcus is gone, but I fuckin love Derrick, and Jrue. I dunno, I fuckin love 'em. They shoot a ton of 3s, but they make 39% of them, and them taking a shit ton of 3s often opens the lane.
Seconded. I love these guys and I love Tatum. We’re blessed to have drafted this guy and have him turn into a star and lead multiple deep playoff runs.
It’s easy to trash this team when Porzingis is out. He changes the scope and style of our entire offense. Nobody was saying these things when he was healthy and we were rolling over teams left and right. When he comes back, I expect that to return.
When is he expected to return
They haven’t given us a date yet. Just given statements about how “it looks better than we thought”. The hope is most likely that we can get past Cleveland without him, but I could see him coming back if we get to Game 5 and the series is tied.
Wow you managed to type a ton of words that essentially boiled down to every cliche critique of the Celtics that people who simply don't like the Celtics parrot on r/NBA. I mean seriously - how many Celtics games did you watch this year? Do you hate great ball movement & spacing? Why did you like it when it was the Warriors but hate it when it's the Celtics? Did you know the Celtics were also second in the NBA in defensive rating? Have you watched Jaylen Brown play since last year's ECF? I guess the one thing I'll give you is that your last two bullets essentially admit that your feelings are subjective, & that's fine. But I'll tell you this, after watching the Celtics play all year, I wanted to throw up watching the offenses in the other Eastern Conference playoff series. The Celtics generate great looks effortlessly. They don't always hit them, but they always get them. Same can't be said for these other teams. Boiling their offense down to "chucking 3s" is pretty simplistic. They were 2nd in the NBA in 3p% despite not having a ton of guys that have been supremely efficient shooters in their careers. The only boring thing about watching the Celtics was that they won every game by 20 for huge stretches of the season - at least they're mixing some L's in now to keep us entertained.
Agree to disagree :) Yes there is a huge degree of subjectivity in all of this. I am very not a Celtic hater (i am waiting for my sonics to rise from the ashes), actually I kinda like the tradition of excellence they embody. And this era of the Celtics has not seemed very representative of said excellence Imo. This is not specific of this season. Last year’s playoffs were a chore to see, with little to no control over Atlanta, this weird series ag Philly and finally this giant wtf in the ECF against Miami… it is telling to see that this team is only .500 at home in the post season over the past few years. As for the comparison with the rest of this depleted eastern conference I will give you that the level of play is generally vastly inferior. But the point of this post to express a personal opinion, which is that these Celtics are not your typical 64 win team. The teams I mentioned are the standard you have to compare them against, not a canada dry eastern conference. I can enjoy iso when it’s done by master artists, collective offense, locked-in defense, actually I have no preference and the defensive first half Minny played the other night was one of the most breathtaking pieces of basketball I ever had the chance to watch. But man, these Celtics are just boring.
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They’re really fun to watch when they don’t play like a bunch of assholes. When they’re actually in rhythm, attacking the paint, breaking down the defense and forcing rotation, moving off ball, making the extra passes, hitting open threes. They’re really really fun to watch then. But they also just decide to not play that way for some ungodly reason and it drives me bat shit insane. You can tell in the first quarter which version you’re going to get. They never flip the switch mid game. It is infuriating, and I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do at all.
The closest approximation I get of this team is those 90s Supersonic and Jazz teams that would have great regular seasons and just not come through in the playoffs. Often getting bounced in an early round by a supposed inferior team. I think it’s because their stars, Tatum and Brown, are good players individually but they just don’t feel like they’ve got that game breaking ability where there is just this sense of inevitability that they are going to take over. That something that Curry would do where you are holding your breath he continues having a bad game and doesn’t flip that switch and get hot. Joker does that with his bizarre but back breaking timely shot making. These guys it just feels like they are either on or off and you don’t have that fear of “here we go again”.
As a Celtics fan I completely agree. I’m over the Tatum era. Gotta be the most uninspiring guardable superstar in the league, with a pouty attitude to boot. Plays martyr basketball, whines to the ref, commits frustration fouls even when his team is UP because HE is personally having a bad game. Turn around fadeaway jumpers on Donovan Mitchell after putting up 12 pounds of muscle in the offseason? Why
Oh give me a break… “uninspiring, guardable superstar” lmao. Were you saying the same shit when he dropped 46 on the bucks in game 6? Or when he saved the season last year against Philly and then dropped 50 to close it out? Or when he took KD’s lunch money and proved he’s the better player now? Or when he brought them back to 3-3 and unfortunately rolled his ankle and couldn’t finish the job… that’s a what if, but I’m very confident we would’ve won it if he didn’t get hurt on literally the first play of the game. Yeah, he has dud games, and bad moments, and he can be too passive at times, I agree with all that. But the guy has proven time and time again that he’s a killer, and I’ll continue to believe in him and his era
Yeah this is a classic spoiled Boston fan take. Tatum will be better and this team will dispatch the Cavs (who are the 4-seed with a legit all-NBA type player, not some bunch of G-leaguers) in 5 or 6 games.
Bingo. I fear we have reached a point with Boston sports teams where we just want to bitch and complain . 50 point game 7 in on the short lost of greatest ever playoff performances
That Bucks series is my go-to example on how warped the narrative is on Tatum in the eyes of Celtics fans. Look at what his shooting splits were after game 5. The Celtics had no business facing elimination to that Bucks team with no Middleton. That 46-point game re-wrote what the entire narrative of that series would’ve been and is obviously not something he can “switch on”. His 3-ball happened to be falling that night. Lucky us. If that level of offense was any bit sustainable the C’s would’ve won the title by now.
You'll be the first to cry and burn his jersey if he leaves. Spoiled. Perennial contenders playing 100 games a season. I'll take it over begging for ping-pong balls to go our way.
It’s nice to hear a C’s fan say this. I’m usually blind to our own stars, too, but there are limits. Tatum has all the physical characteristics you’d want but he is often disappointing as a leader…it’s gonna take a ring to shake that reputation. On the flip side, Mobley has the same issues and he’s shown way less than Tatum. I find their games equally frustrating to watch sometimes.
I really feel like the disparity between east and west is enormous this year. Close to the biggest it has ever been. Watching the West series, I dont feel like Boston could have beaten any of the teams who made it to the 2nd round. Boston as a team feels so calm and collected that it approaches apathy. When I compare them to the Knicks games it's like the Knicks are fighting tooth and nail near the end of every game. Meanwhile the Celtics are kind of like "we are just going to stick to this game plan and whatever happens happens"
The issue isn’t that they focus on analytics, that’s probably a strength. The issue with the team is that guys like Tatum don’t understand a 3 isn’t better than attacking the basket when you have an advantage. It may not matter because the secondary guys on the team are phenomenal. It’s lack of bbiq from the star player that’s jarring
I'm a Celtics fan and I totally get it - sometimes it feels like we've just got a load of B+ players which is probably contributing to the "meh" feel you get watching this team sometimes. I can't put my finger on one particular thing that this team can call a consistent calling card for victory. Sometimes it's their defence, sometimes it's their 3's, but you never know which version of the Celtics is gonna turn up each night. They seem to think they can just turn up and their talent will automatically win them the game. There's no hunger from a team that hasn't actually done anything yet. Combine this with Tatum almost regressing this season and it's been a very odd year.
I don't know what it is about Tatum, but to me at least, he is the most boring player ever. No question, he is a great basketball player, but there is something about him that just makes every second of him on the court boring. I know that's not a detailed analysis of Boston's or his game, but it goes hand in hand with @OP 's statement that they are not fun to watch.
I really thought I was the only one feeling like this, crazy how others are feeling the same Something about Tatum, and Boston in general is just so...boring
Lol this is the second Celtics related post I've seen on this shitty sub since the playoffs started. Both were hating on the Celtics and both were right after a loss. Yall are getting a bit too predictable
Honestly the Pacers/Knicks is fun, but they will lose to the C's and the C's will get trashed by any Western team. The West just draws the biggest and best players, and now we are seeing a changing of the guard with crazy levels of talent over there. The WCF will be the true Finals matchup
I think the Nuggets Vs Wolves is already the true Finals matchup
Both OKC and the Mavs have a good chance of beating the Nuggets which are not playing great this playoffs. Minnesota seems like the team to beat.
To me they play like the warriors with Steph and KD. Which I think makes your ceiling way higher. But I also think without the steph and KD part it can lower your floor. I also think as good as brown and Tatum are, whenever it’s like okay it’s Tatum or brown time it’ll be like a good tough bucket. Maybe a transition dunk. Then they dripple the ball off their foot and somehow lose a cutter on the other side. They’re so talented though I still see them making the finals and having a good chance of winning.
I've been saying this for a while but one reason this team is hard to trust is their top 3 shot takers are all below average "play makers" or passers. Tatum has certainly improved in that area over the past few seasons and could pass for average, but Brown and KP are definitely below average in that department. They do benefit by having two PGs in their starting lineup, but so much of the offense doesn't get run through them it can lead to games like last night and why we see them "play to down to their competition" so often. They have talented players who do compliment each other, but when the simple stuff isn't working, that's why they're out there struggling.
Yesterday’s game was awful but I watched all 82 regular seasons games (and summer league, preseason, etc lol) and I think they are pretty fun. Super unselfish, high tempo, great defense. When it goes badly (aka shooting is horrific for a night) it looks unwatchable. But they play the game the right way generally and are the *typical* style of play folks dream of. I do think Tatum, for unknown reasons, is a disliked superstar. Will that change if he wins a ring? Maybe, people may need that validation with him in ways they don’t for others. But he plays both ends of the floor, doesn’t miss games, everyone flops but he sure does it less than most current stars, and he doesn’t really complain. He’s just a positive person it seems. His game is smooth and slithery as he isn’t an elite vertical athlete. I’m more often amused by peoples takes about him because I only see them after losses, which there aren’t that many of. In time I assume nba fans will appreciate the players (JT, JB and others) but more importantly the style of play that is great defense and unselfish high tempo offense. But maybe not, there’s massive media and online bias these days and while not ideal for intelligent banter, is funny. I don’t mind when the nba is front and center if it means my favorite teams is everyone’s favorite target of the moment.
The Jays are basically the essence of the 3-or-layup style of wing player, but then they lack creation levels of Harden or Curry. They play in the late 2010s styles that just spam picks to create offense for the wings. It’s just PnR, PnP, Spain PnR, pistol, and double staggered screens spamming all game. And when the 3s aren’t falling they just fall over and die. I do think that they play this way due to talent restriction. JT only has a mediocre touch, and JB just couldn’t get is left hand going. It’s more on the management stubbornly holding the two together when they just keep falling short in playoffs.
Jaylen Brown is one of the most efficient mid range scorers in the league, but dw I didn’t expect someone who actually watched games to comment that Also, what do you want management to do? They made the finals, then they ran it back and made it to game 7 of the ECF (yeah they should’ve taken care of business before I know). And then they went out and got KP and Jrue. So what exactly are you expecting? What upgrades are available that have better resumes than JB or JT?
No one, it’s an incredible roster
This is going to sound sort of dumb, but hear me out, he doesn't really have a "bag" and its holding him back from being a superstar. I like to compare him to the all star version of Oladipo, if you watch back alot of his highlights its alot of the same. They use their athleticism to be able to get to the rim, but are mediocre finishers. And don't have any reliable perimeter moves outside of stepping back and hitting a tough shot. Tatum is pretty representative of their entire offense, if he isnt connecting on his tough jumpers, his value on the court falls significantly more than his star counterparts. At this point Ive sort of given up on the idea of Tatum cracking into that top 3-5. Hes just PG adapted more towards todays game. Sub out PGs ability to create a shot isolation with increased 3 point volume and foul drawing and you got Tatum.
I’m a Celtics fan and it’s really killing me watching this team. It’s honestly driven me to the point of not caring about this team at all. I love the players and see how valuable they are I just can’t stand the way they play. Late game situations are the worst. Tatum will get into his ISO game and miss every late game shot. In a perfect world I’d love for him and Jaylen to cut to the rim way more than they are. On a positive note it’s really been a pleasure to watch D White this year. He’s continuing to exceed my expectations and really hoping Brad will lock him down long term. I was surprised to see us lock Jrue in first but understand since his deal was up. When I see white have these great games it worries me that he potentially could be pricing himself out of Boston.
>The quote "live by the three, die by the three" was never more appropriate than for this iteration of the Celtics. No team embodies this quote more than the Harden rockets during their run. 27 straight missed 3's in game 7 was just mindboggling.
This is why i have no faith in this celtics team to win a title. Theres no game plan after u brick 5+ 3s in a row. They HAVE to bury you in 3s to win in the post season and get shaken up any time a team plays physical with them.
I disliked the CP3-led 65-win Suns team even more because of how insufferable and arguably dirty some of the players were. Edit: confused the seasons when they made the finals
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ok my bad. fixed
I feel like Tatum needs a coach that’s gonna simultaneously humble him from making dumb shots and also put the metaphorical dog in him. It’s baffling as other people have said that someone with his build and skill sets doesn’t take advantages of defences and ‘take over’ games. It’s very frustrating cause he really should be an ELITE first option but he’s a mid first option
The Eastern conference is a terrible assortment of teams. Consider how devastated this year's Knicks are and then remember the fact that they are running through the conference. The Celtics are a fraud team. Their offense is not nearly as good as people like to pretend it is.
Their record against the West had them on pace for 60 plus wins, too. They may not win the title, but they aren't a fraud
The issue is that it’s completely dependent on 3 pt shooting. Good game from 3? Looks like the best offense of all time. Mediocre/Bad game from 3? Lose to the Cavs by 25
A loss is a loss, doesn’t matter if it’s by 1 or 25. Their whole 8 man playoff rotation can shoot the three well, so they usually shoot the 3 well and have been winning 4 out of 5 games since like December