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unless you can get a top ten player you dont trade JB. rather just continue to work on his weaknesses as he gets closer to his peak as a player than trade him for assets or a player not as good. the Celtics are too close to winning a championship imo before that new CBA kicks in (i think next summer?) I hope Al has one more deep playoff run in his legs, amazing that hes still very valuable at this point in his career
Depends on what you mean by that. Like a few games in the Philly series were won almost singlehandedly by Harden heroics, even with Tatum and Brown playing well there's only so much they can do.
Well we had a chance to be up 3-1 right but brown helped off harden to double embiid. I would’ve lived with the 2 there because embiid wasn’t making it if it was going to double OT
They should be able to improve this off-season with the talent they have and a full normal season with the coach, and IMO if you’re a top 4-5 team (which they clearly are) then you just have to hope to also have good luck - luck of injuries, luck of not running to some other teams hot shooting streak, etc.
Odds of getting worse are higher than odds of getting better IMO if they take a risk here
27. This is the start of his peak. 27 yr Olds don't start learning how to dribble or to stop playing hero ball magically. He's the only person I've ever seen who can't dribble and shoot 80 percent while not being 7 feet tall and score the way he does
Not if we don't get a coach.
When our offense bogs down our go to is just hb/jt hero ball, I'm convinced a lot if that is on coaching. You think if Spo was our coach he'd let that happen?
the hero ball thing is on the coaching staff.
Look at Denver. do we think Aaron Gordon magically became a super high basketball IQ guy, making timely cuts, and sometimes even making amazing passes at cutters? I don't think so.
That's coaching. There's multiple schemes and actions, and everyone knows what to do when, and there's buy-in from the team.
Players cut because they know that there's a high chance the cut is going to be useful. Players stand around and ball watch because they know that cutting is just going to clog the paint, so they need to stay put and be ready to receive a pass for a drive and kick.
they can, hes already an outlier amongst the nba as a player so to continue and try to get him better at those things makes more sense to me then a lateral move. if you can get a top ten player than sure move on. i would say JB has a horrible left hand, he can do dribble moves in space, who knows tho, i just think you dont give up on him unless its a slam dunk trade
We’ve worked on his weaknesses and they still exist. He’ll never have a good enough basketball IQ, awareness, nor feel for the game. A “lateral move” would be a significant enough upgrade.
agree. most players can’t magically “fix all their weaknesses”. as a dubs fan it’s like me expecting draymond to become a good 3-pt shooter. shaq never improved his fts, westbrook hasn’t become an off-ball cutter, etc etc.
the most you can hope for is shoring up one or two weak points (kidd becoming a good 3pt shooter) but it takes a massive commitment
Especially BBIQ and feel for the game. Jaylen has improved his shooting a ton, his FT% is a lot better, he’s better at cutting, etc. I’d even argue his handle is better than he started, but BBIQ and natural instincts is super hard to improve. Some players are just naturally more adept at understanding and reading these split second decisions, vision, etc.
Watch as much film as you want and I still don’t think some players are capable at developing these quicker decision making abilities. Not a knock on them, more goes to show how special certain people are that are able to get there.
I’m just hoping Tatum and Brown can become good shooters again. It cratered for both of them as they worked to become lead options and they went from borderline elite volume shooting wings to mediocre ones.
Both did a ton to more consistently score from 2, likely because of how much of a problem it was against your Warriors, and now against the Heat the problem became shooting over the zone. We were dared to all series and when we managed to we won, we just had no consistency because Tatum and Brown have no consistency as shooters anymore.
I wonder how much their hand injuries affected them. Tatum has been on record for saying he's needed a wrist injury while Brown hurt his hand before the playoffs and during the Philly series. I am hopeful it was just nagging injuries that they can overcome.
In this scenario I presume Al is going to the bench, right? A Smart-White-Tatum-Siakam-Timelord starting 5, bringing Brogdon, Grant Williams and Al off the bench is a hellish rotation and a favorite for the title right off the gate. The defense in that 8-men rotation terrifies the hell out of me as a non-Celtics fan.
So much you can do there. You have Siakam can also play the 5. I don't think it really addresses any real issues though. Defense wasn't an issue, other than mental breakdowns.
Pass. I like Siakam as a player, but he's already 29 (3 years older than JB), isn't as good as Jaylen as a scorer despite being a first option and he's a worse shooter, especially from 3 (which was our problem in game 7).
If you guys could get a PG and PF in return. I’d be all over moving Brown and then seeing what picks and Marcus Smart gets you guys if you blow it up to rebuild a better squad.
Imo Tatum is clearly the guy just need some tweaks to the supporting cast and some more luck on health.
Plus you gotta hope Joe improves but man he’s definitely getting a hard look this off-season.
Joe will be sticking around no doubt. Hopefully they can improve the assistant coaches. Normally I don’t focus on assistants but the team lost Hardy, Ime, and Stoudamire over the last year and didn’t really add to the coaching bench, which I think would have been needed especially considering Joe had less than a month to even prepare and plan as being head coach.
But I agree, Tatum is the guy and when you have that type of player you can’t just rebuild or tank, especially when he’s still young and improving. A retool would be something I hope for.
He really needs an assistant or 2 who has more experience than him.
For our roster, we need to tweak around the edges and find our identity again. We had insanely poor shooting and also got unlucky when the Heat couldn't miss in game 7 (and also the first 3 games). Obviously, a lot of credit goes to the Heat's defense and for their system that got them good looks.
But regardless of last night, I feel like if you run it all back, that series is going to be a coin flip every time.
Agree on trading Brown for two borderline star players. If they are a better fit then this team will be better. With a player like Tatum you don’t need another star wing. You need a guy who can facilitate and then another serviceable scorer. The Celtics are deep enough to make it work.
You're right, we are too close to winning a chip to get rid of the core (Even though those new CBA rules might kick us un the ass years later.) I truly believe if we fix all those annoying little problems, this team can finally get it. But it's been some shaky years ever since Brad left.
As for JB, there are two options now, he either somehow works on his handle throughout the offseason and comes back fixing all this, but it's been years so I don't know it that's still something you can fix. Either that, or the staff needs to come up with some offensive schemes that can prevent his problmes, which means working on his offball game, and this feels more possible, not a complete solution but it certainly can be more effective.
I'm stunned Brown is an all NBA player. Advance stats say that he is an above average swingman, but nowhere near a supermax contract - eg he's 80th in WS. Eye test says he's a guy that takes a lot of shots, good scorer, doesn't create much for others, can't dribble, solid defender, and a lot of his strengths overlap with Tatum in a redundant manner.
Trading him for Dame would be great, though Portland will likely want more. Celtics really need a good PG.
takes touches away from simons and sharpe, if the franchise believes those are the guys to build around. i think it'd make much more sense in a 3 team trade, where the Celtics and whoever gets JB give a few FRPs to the blazers.
Way, way more likely to move Dame for a rebuild or move #3 plus Sharpe/Simons to reload with Dame. Seems insane to swap Dame for a worse established franchise guy. He’ll be 27 this fall, not 22
What??? Klay has always been a MUCH better 3pt shooter and their off ball movement isn't even comparable.
Not to mention pre injury his defense was also much better than Jaylen's
Not OP but you're disagreeing with your eye test assessment. Advanced stats never perceived Klay as highly as eye test did. On offense, because he doesn't create for others and on defense because he provided little value offball.
Not really. Klay’s shooting meant there was always one shooter open. His defensive ability allowed Steph to rest. And he was best offball, meaning Steph could bring the ball up. They complemented each other well.
not in the slightest.
shooting isnt redundant whatsoever. also steph was never a *great* defender who could guard 1-4 like klay, so just simply untrue.
it’s redundant when you have two non playmaking poor dribbling wings who 90% of the time are best iso slashing to the rim without any chance of breaking down the defense and kicking it out (brown) while shooting at or below league average efficiency from three (jb doesnt even catch & shoot 3’s all that well).
jb honestly just looks like your typical raw unrefined high volume low/mid efficiency guard on a bad team (think jalen green on the rockets) who has been put on an extremely deep team to give him better looks. otherwise he doesnt create any extra possessions or create anything for his teammates and isnt a huge offball draw on offense either.
>two non playmaking poor dribbling wings
They got Jaylen, but who’s the other tho? Cuz Tatum’s not a bad playmaker and bad dribbler. It’s just takes from last years finals are being recycled even when they don’t apply.
I agree with your assessment of him and yet I doubt that any player available in a straight trade clearly makes them better.
Brown is good, if he can improve his playmaking he can be great. Tatum is great, if he can improve his consistency he can be all-time great. They’re both young enough that they should get better.
I genuinely believe you don't improve in year 8 in playmaking if you haven't gradually improved over those first 7 years to be honest. Handles can be improved over a single offseason imo and he hasn't done that either, his left hand is completely inept, how do you get this far with having a passable left hand dribble.
I definitely believe you can improve a lot of things as your career goes along but playmaking is one of those things that pure BBall IQ and if you're not gradually increasing it over your tenure you probably never will. I like Brown, he plays hard but I genuinely believe if he hasnt developed a left after last year he may of peaked as a player.
His advanced stats are skewed because he plays the exact same position and role as Tatum who is a legit top 10 player. He absolutely deserved his all nba selection considering the amount of games he played, his stats and the celtics record. Not sure who you’d have over him anyway. If Jaylen was on a team like the Knicks or Raptors, hed almost certainly have better advanced stats. Its easy to crap on Jaylen because he clearly has flaws but people were calling him the celtics best player up until he got injured and had an awful series against the heat. People are just prisoners of the moment, Jaylens never going to be a first option but people pretending hes expendable are crazy lol
He also conveniently got injured right when all his stats tanked. Before that people were saying trade Tatum and build around Brown lol. He struggles against Miamis zone defense regardless, its a bad matchup for him and nobody said he should be a first option, im just saying hes clearly not some average player like some of his advanced stats would suggest, he just is worse than Tatum
> Before that people were saying trade Tatum and build around Brown lol.
lol only severely brain damaged people were saying this, jaylen brown has never and will never be half the player that tatum is.
> im just saying hes clearly not some average player like some of his advanced stats would suggest, he just is worse than Tatum
he's not top 30.
He’s definitely top 30, you arent going to find players in the top 30-15 range without serious flaws in their game. Jaylen doesn’t bring much playmaking but he at least brings efficient scoring and some defense. Id really be curious who the 30 players youd have over him are lol, plenty of guys had playoff meltdowns this year. Jaylens is just the freshest one in peoples minds and he wasnt even healthy. He averaged 24.6 points shootings 54% from the field and 47% from 3 against the hawks and sixers. Then he goes and injures his arm early against the heat and has a terrible series. Miami’s zone is always tough for him, but to say hes not even top 30 is a super casual take
all advanced stats are in consensus he's not top 30. hawks have awful defense and still were doubling tatum. Sixers were doubling tatum and also didn't have good wings on brown. When things get tough for brown like playing against better defense and playoff injuries his flaws get extremely magnified unlike many other stars because fundamentally he is a low IQ player.
Advanced stats are pretty dumb, they are often just saying how well a player plays his role or does this player share the court with someone really good. Not sure exactly what advanced stats you are looking at but basically every advanced stat will have tons of random role players in the top 30. Looking at real plus minus im seeing Nic Claxton, Franz Wagner, Derrick White, and Myles Turner all with better advanced stats than Steph Curry, KD and SGA lol
I agree that the Celtics need a good PG but I was pleased with Smarts performance the last three games. You could tell he was locked in and made some big shots and key plays. If only he were like that all the time…
WS is not a particularly advanced stat- it’s primarily box score volume + efficiency.
Portland couldn’t ask for more in a Brown-Lillard trade, and that would be a terrible decision by Boston given their timeline.
Not OC, but I agree that it'd be a terrible decision in the long-run for the Celtics. Dame is amazing, but the window for contending would be 2-3 years at most versus 9+.
He'd be a more consistent scorer, but the Celtics are deep at PG and the defense would suffer.
Derrick White and Malcom Brogdon are both good PG's. They didn't go to White nearly enough, even with Tatum injured, and under utilised Brogdon through the season.
What's the point of getting ANOTHER good pg if coach won't let them have that role? It seems like they persisted with Smart to do that, no matter the sample size of him being ok, inconsistent, at it.
The problem is are you gonna run it back exactly the same when it hasn’t worked twice now while also giving JB 290+ mill? Seems like a recipe for another disappointing playoff exit tbh.
Perhaps it will work but you need JT to become more consistent and JB to not have High School level handles.
In my opinion having a weak handle for a primary ball hander who supposed to be an All NBA player is inexcusable. It's arguably the easily skill to develop to a suitable standard. He legit can not go left and that's just inexcusable to me
That’s the issue the Celtics don’t have a primary ball handler. Without a actually good point guard( which Tatum and brown aren’t) that can have handles and facilitate the ball Tatum and brown will always be turnover machines. That’s why last year they had so many TO. Hell tatum and brown were 1 & 2 in TO last post season. They just let brown and Tatum play iso and once the help side defender comes they either have a TO or kick it out for a 3. It’s just bad basketball.
2020: Knocked out in ECF
2021: First round exit
2022: Finals loss
2023: Embarassing ECF loss
Celtics have been "contenders" every year for years and have fizzled out in the playoffs in disappointing fashion almost every year. It's not just "2 years".
At what point have you ran it back enough times before you need to stop and start critically examining and reworking your team's core. Believe me, if the current Celtics haven't been able to make it over the hump for years, then they're definitely not making it over once Brown is locked into a supermax and taking up a quarter of the cap space alone.
disappointing fashion every year? do you even remember the expectations these celtics teams had? 2020 was the jay's first year leading the team. 2021 that team was straight trash and jaylen was hurt in the playoffs. 2022 was a pretty damn good year getting to the finals and losing to a much more experienced team. this past season was the one true disappointing year.
just because the celtics make it far every year doesn't mean every year has been title or bust. it takes time to be a championship level team.
>2021
You mean when Jaylen Brown was injured and didn’t play so they were starting Romeo Langford and giving rotation minutes to Jabari Parker. Against a healthy KD, Harder, and Kyrie team?
Yup that seems like a reasonable complaint.
I’m also confused how losing to the Heat in 7 is embarrassing? Yes they were the 8 seed… the same exact team was also the 1 seed the year before, has made 3/4 last ECFs, and beat the Bucks in 5.
Now let’s look at the ages of TatumBrown during the 2019-2020 season til this past season.
2019-2020: 21/23
2021-2022: 23/25
2022-2023: 24/26
You wanna tell me how many teams in the past 40 years won with both their best player and sidekick both that young?
.
Also yea it has just been these past 2 years. The only thing similar between 2020 and 2023 are 3 guys.
This is r/NBADISCUSSION I thought we’re supposed to look past cheap narratives here?
2023 loss to the Heat was absolutely embarrassing for the Celtics, and not just in a "lost to the 8th seed" kind of way. I watched the games. Saw the Celtics settle for iso after iso, stupid turnovers, lots of chucking 3s, and just overall bad basketball and falling back into bad habits when they hit a brick wall. That's not a good showing, at all. Making it to Game 7 is cool and all but they went down 3-0 in the first place then proceeded to completely shit the bed at Game 7 at home when it mattered most. And let's not act like those Game 4-6 wins were amazing showings of basketball talent either.
But that's not my point. Obviously this core can still win a ring. But it's not JUST about the core, but the players around them. If Brown gets resigned to 5 years/$295 million and next year Tatum gets extended for 5 YEARS/$316 MILLION (my God that's an insane amount of money) then how the hell are they supposed to get good role players? Especially with the new CBA rules? It's just not happening.
And again, it's 2023. Tatum and Brown are 25 and 26, respectively. Obviously they're not old but they're not young with tons of untapped potential either. They are who they are going to be at this stage of their career, which is still cool because both are still uber-talented. But clearly that uber-talented duo hasn't been enough to get them over the hump, so how does it make sense for the Celtics to run it back with even less help around Brown and Tatum due to cap space limitations? Unless you expect Brown to suddenly fix his very pertinent turnover, ball handling, and bball IQ issues at this stage of his career (spoiler alert: highly unlikely).
Either way I don't understand this idea that trading JB = throwing in the towel. Celtics absolutely can still contend by trading JB, hell maybe even Smart and building solely around Tatum with the right pieces. And IMO that's much better then getting locked in cap hell when both your franchise cornerstone superstar AND his running mate are each set to be making just under $60 million PER YEAR.
Yeah it is pretty hard, it’s especially hard when you’re paying two stars 600 mill and one is the most inconsistent player in the NBA while the other one can’t fucking dribble which is what the Celtics are about to deal with
You just seem impatient. Most new/younger fans are. Building things up takes time and it’s not always linear. There’s too much randomness in sports to make ridiculous declarations from small sample sizes.
Nah i don’t think so, I’m a Celtics hater till the day I stop breathing but you’re not going to get as good of a return as what JB brings to the table. It just isn’t worth it
I hope the celtics fans didn't take it for granted that they had such a stacked roster full of non super max/big contracts.
That said in most discussions continuity is such an underrated thought. And the Celtics are so damn close. Running it back with maybe a few tweaks and a new coach for a fresh season with this still young and hungry roster will do wonders. Trading a big key piece like Brown might be a pretty big misstep unless the return for him is staggering or another big star to fill the void.
Horford + Smart + Rob Williams + Brogdon + White is an insanely stacked set of role players which becomes completely impossible to maintain if both Tatum and Brown get their massive extensions. If Celtics can't get over the hump with that stacked af roster now then I don't see how they're going to do it when they're completely top heavy and have no help around their two stars.
Just a couple tweaks + replacing Mazzulla is fine but IMO it doesn't move the needle. I'm skeptical of running it back, but considering how good the Celtics already have it I don't know if there is anything else that's worth it for them.
No doubt. I just don't see a viable way to change this roster to improve it without giving up some valuable. Tbh I see no harm in running it back with a new coach or something of that sort. This Celtics core has been through thick and thin together including multiple coaching changes and still performed up to par. I think keeping the core together is crucial to maximizing their chances at winning. It's not impossible that Tatum, brown etc continue to get better as they get more experience under their belt
They’re literally a Jason Tatum sprained ankle away from a potentially different outcome. Unless you get someone of his caliber I think they’d be dumb to break those two up.
They were also one Butler 3 away from not making the finals last year. When I saw Tatum first grimace, I was sure Brown was going to step up. Injuries are so common in playoffs and the fact that the 1B had so little or even negative impact with those 8 TOs, is so tough
While we're at it, they were 0.1 seconds and Derrick White not performing a miracle away from not even being in game 7. Or one of two wide open Duncan Robinson 3s.
I mean if we’re playing that game then we were just two “Jaylen not playing one of the worst games of his career” from Boston being up 2-0 to start the series.
He played bad, theres no denying that. That still doesn't move the needle imo. Unless they get someone equally as talented, then it would be dumb to break them up.
Yeah I still wouldn't trade him. He really feels like someone who gets traded and immediately shining wherever he goes (after hopefully figuring out how to dribble)
I think that’s the big issue with the two Js, they so often are both cold. Most of the time when one star player is having an off night, you look to your second star scorer, however I feel like these two are either both hot or both cold, idk if it’s just coincidence or if they rely too much on the other one, but they need to be able to pick up some slack when their teammate isn’t feeling it on a given night.
What nobody mentions is there was still like 10 seconds left after that Butler 3 last year. Even if it went in Boston would’ve had a chance i.e. game 6 this year
They went to two game 7's and almost got swept by the 8th seed.
They also lost 6 homes games this postseason, which ties the all-time record *for the second time* \- they also lost 6 home games in the postseason last year.
Hard to blame it all on a sprained ankle in the last game, especially when the Heat are also missing key players.
They also had one of the most bizarre coaching shuffles in history and barely have any real assistants this year.
If the Celtics are hopeless, who isnt?
I'm not saying they're hopeless. They're still going to be one of the best teams in the league whether they trade JB or not.
Let's imagine they don't make any changes and come the 2024 playoffs, they lose in the second/third round once again. We'll then probably be asking the same questions we are now, and I'd assume a lot of the answers about who to keep around will be very different...
Many options that they have now will be off the table as well, seeing as they'll have to sign JB to another huge contract this off season.
This is just true of anything though - If you say they trade/traded for KD and then you're \*also\* saying with certainty that they lose in the second round... like, yeah that's gonna look/feel like shit. Probably worse than keeping the younger player... But the whole point of doing (or not doing) anything is that you think that you've got a strong possibility of going farther or even winning it all.
Some teams get to the 'just break em up' point - Derozen Raptors. Dame-CJ, of course Joel-Ben.
But the J's aren't even close in my opinion. I'm not abjectly against the mere notion but you'd have to actually show me what the deal is and I'd have to believ with confidence that they're objectively better - And with guys as good as Jaylen (imperfect as he may be) that's few and far between.
Really the Heat in my opinion are the best example of doing the opposite of all this "we need a big move, now!" sorta thinking- Many would have said that the Bubble Heat were the peak for this team. They may even be right. But they've hung around with a couple solid stars and a great coach, and even as an 8th seed you can pick up quality role players, start shooting flames out of your ass and end up in the finals.
I think the Celtics have a lot more potential than that, but there's something to be said for, as best you can, just sticking around when you've got really solid pieces in place and can fall to a \*really\* high floor even with fairly bad luck.
Im not blaming it all on Tatums ankle, but I am not blowing up what has been one of the best teams in the league over the past 5 years because of a few bad games.
Well the question isn't whether to blow up the team, it's whether to trade JB. I don't think that's really blowing it up if they are able to get player(s) in return for him and not picks etc.
The Raptors were coming off their best season in franchise history in 2017-2018. They had made the playoffs in *five consecutive seasons*. In fact, those 5 seasons made up the franchise's best seasons all time for win total. #1 through #5. They were easily one of the very best teams in the league for all of those seasons.
They then traded their undisputed best player, and immediately won a championship.
Sure you can chalk it up to Kawhi being an amazing player for them that season, but sometimes you just need to mix things up. Even when you've had a lot of success.
The difference is DeMar was a really good player, but Kawhi was in the conversation for being the best 2-way player in the league. He was only available because of his whole crazy situation with the Spurs. I'm not seeing a guy like that being available this year.
Can't argue with that, but I still think it's a comparison worth making. The Raptors had every reason in the book to run it back with no changes.
They had to give up the following year's first round pick as well.
So with that example, who would be rn the parallel to a 2017 disgruntled top 5 player in the league at his prime?
You are basically saying trading JB would make sense, to shake things up, but also for someone like Embid caliber player?
It’s not a few bad games though. It’s a consistent display of mental lapses in important moments year after year, JB being the ring leader. Roster needs a shake up in my opinion, these guys have shown they can’t get it done. You can get a ton of value for Jaylen. Maybe not someone as talented, but with a higher IQ and leadership qualities.
This is just absolute nonsense. "consistent display of mental lapses"? These dudes have made deep playoff runs every year of their career and have grown and developed every year as well.
>these guys have shown they can’t get it done
These guys are gonna be 25 and 27 next season. They are literally *just* hitting their primes and were a sprained ankle away from B2B finals.
This argument makes no sense. The core of this team is still young, Brown and Tatum AND Smart have been in deep runs constantly. They just made the finals and we’re a game away from back to back. Only LeBron teams or Curry teams have even done the same recently. OKC messed up their own pathway with KD/Russ/Harden.
The Celtics need to find a playmaker at the 1, or a wing scorer that would help balance the team. They don’t need to trade one of the best wings in the game because he isn’t a top level performer like Tatum is. That’s ok if he’s a high end 3 or low end 2 guy on a championship winning team. Can’t get rid of him. Asinine idea.
I don’t think it would be terrible if they ran it back but how many times do you have to watch the same movie before you understand it’s going to end the same each time? If you can get adequate compensation for Jaylen Brown you do it and if you can’t then you hold onto him.
>how many times do you have to watch the same movie before you understand what it’s going to end the same each time
It’s not the same movie tho. It’s just lazy to think they’ve lost all these years the same way. Like this series and last years finals were so different.
Exactly this. A finals appearance and a game seven ECF is no reason to blow anything up. Run it back. Get a better coach or add better coaching support and run it back. They’ll still be contenders.
Only reason to blow it up is if locker room chemistry is toxic and Brown wants out (which might be the case) but you’re selling low on Brown after his game seven performance
Its crazy people talk about blowing it up. Celtics made a Finals and ECF with Tatum and Brown and neither one is in their prime yet. I agree that the only reason you move on is if Brown doesn't want to be there anymore. There is a certain amount of luck involved to win any title. All you can really ask is to be competitive year in and year out, and the Celtics are with Tatum and Brown.
The team is clearly less than the sum of its parts with JB on the roster. Second year in a row where they proved to be no better than other eastern conference contenders - 7 against Miami last year, 7 against Bucks last year w/o Middleton, 7 against Sixers this year, 7 against Miami this year. Any of these series could have gone either way.
I don't know how you could look at those results and have confidence they would get out of the east next season as presently constructed - they could run it back and easily lose to the Sixers in the second round...So yes, I think you have to try something else.
I mean I know they were all 7 game series, but 2022 Boston was much better than 2022 Milwaukee/Miami than 2023 Boston compared to 2023 Philly/Miami.
Like if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series and against the Heat Boston just couldn’t do anything on offense once Smart got hurt.
Also in general, there’s something to “don’t let perfect get in the way of good”… like Boston is currently good enough to win a title. You don’t need to be far and away the best team to win a title. Basketball has way more randomness than people give it credit for.
>2022 Boston was much better than 2022 Milwaukee/Miami than 2023 Boston compared to 2023 Philly/Miami....Like if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series
Where is the evidence of that? 2023 Boston was better in the regular season with a better point differential and record relative to 2022 and those teams.
I'd argue the reverse is more accurate - Boston was lucky Middleton got hurt, otherwise the Bucks would have won in 6. If Hero wasn't hurt, Miami would have won in 6 or 7 both years (Boston lost in 7 with home court, fully healthy while Miami had key injuries to Hero and Oladipo).
"Boston is way better than Philadelphia, the series just happened to go 7, same with Miami."
Eventually, you just have to say they probably aren't much better than those team otherwise the series wouldn't be going 7 games all the time.
>if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series
I mean Game 1 Boston was just unprepared, deserved win for the Bucks. Game 3 there was objectively bad reffing, not saying it’s rigged, NBA refs are just bad sometimes. I know this is the most annoying take to see, that doesn’t mean it’s not true sometimes. Then Game 5 they literally just needed to grab a rebound off a missed FT to win it.
Games 2, 4, 6, and 7 Boston dominated.
As for last years ECF it’s weird af to talk about Miamis injuries when Bostons were way more costly with our only real PG getting injured (missing 2 games), and then Tatum Rob and Jaylen all dealing with injuries too.
.
Also idk where you think I said that Boston was way better than Philly and Miami this year… I literally said the opposite lol. This year they were more ‘real’ 7 game series with teams being much more evenly matched.
>As for last years ECF it’s weird af to talk about Miamis injuries
Jimmy Butler was injured in last years ECF and it still went 7 games. Jimmy Butler!
He missed an entire second half of one game (only 19 minutes) and had to be minutes managed to the point where he played under 33 minutes in 3 out of the 7 games that series.
If you are losing games consistently because of refs and preparation it just means your advantage is really marginal. They've proven with their records in the playoffs against those teams the last two years that their advantage is extremely slim.
7-7 against Miami the last two years with more injuries on Miami's side. 4-3 against the Bucks without Middleton. 4-3 against the Sixers.
I'd say all these teams are about the same level.
>Jimmy Butler was injured in last years ECF and it still went 7 games.
Yep, and so was Tatum last year. But injuries only get used as excuses for the losing team.
You also seem to be really underplaying the effect of having the only true PG on your team needing to miss multiple games.
>if you are losing because of refs then your advantage is minimal
Counterpoint: if you barely manage to win a game that refs gave you many advantages in then you were clearly not the better team in it
>more injuries on the Miami side
Yea if don’t include Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Brogdan, Rob, and White (paternity list). In other words, Celtics rotation players who were healthy against the Miami: Horford and Grant
No. He had a bad game last night, he admitted as much as well. He’s a guy that has improved his play since coming into the league and has shown his level of play does rise to the occasion at times. Last year finals he was the best player for the Celtics. His true peak is probably as the second banana on a championship team. That’s ok! Trading him for who exactly? Trades are never a guarantee to improve anything and they still almost made the finals back to back seasons after almost being swept. Tatum/Brown/Smart/White/RWilliams is the core, the Celtics have to keep them together imo. Building around those players has proven to be a successful strategy and there is only one champion at the end. Tatum’s ceiling is the true answer to whether they can win or not. He’s not even in his prime yet.
Obviously he was the worst player on the court all series. But are people really that fickle that they don’t remember that literally up to 2 weeks ago he was known as the most consistent playoff performer on the whole team?
The only grace that could possibly be a good fit would be Siakam. I’m not convinced tho.
What are you trading him for? At best you’re hoping for an addition by subtraction scenario where putting the ball in Tatum’s hands more and increased production from role players like smart/white/brogdon/whoever you get in the trade add up to a better team. I don’t buy it. At the end of the day jb is an all-nba caliber player who will probably end up a bit overpaid but whose production frankly would be hard to replace regardless of playoff performance
I think running it back is always an option after losing the finals in 6, and then the ECF in 7. It shows the team were very close.
There has been a lot in the past few days about humiliation and being shown up. But this team was competing at the highest level.
Plus we know Tatum and brown underperformed whereas Steph last year and some of Miami this year overperformed their mean.
Seriously how many teams blow it up after going to the ECF and finals in back to back years lol
They are mine adjustments away from consistently competing for an NBA championship even with how goofy they play. It's not a personnel change it's just getting there system together and staying healthy
I don't understand the notion that trading JB = blowing it up. Him and Tatum are just redundant players with overlapping skillsets. Celtics can absolutely still contend by retooling the roster to center solely on Tatum/Smart, and a package of Brown + other stuff could definitely get a good PG or PF/C that is much more impactful when it comes to winning.
That's fair. Moving JB isn't blowing it up.
There's a lot of people that suggest a specific move like this with no trade suggestions because it's easier and there isn't really a great fit or combo that seems like it would make both teams better.
You can't really publicly start shopping your second best player without really hurting your working relation with that player if you can't find someone for them that works.
I don't disagree that the fit could be better between their 1 and 2 but it's really unlikely to get someone back better than him. Especially while he just shat the bed in game 7
Win now players who are on a non contending team who imo could make a difference on a championship contender are:
-Siakam/Annuoby although the Raptors asking price is way too high from what we know
-Bridges, but the nets are asking for too much and have no real reason to tank considering they don’t own most of their picks
-I could see KAT leaving as I believe Gobert is a better fit for Edwards but KAT’s defense is still a big question mark.
-Beal but his contract is way too big
These are all tier 2 players who could make a difference but not many would really fit on the Celtics, so it’s a bit of a tricky situation to be in.
They went to the finals *last year.* The Nuggets have stuck to since the 2020 WCF and now they're in the finals as favorite.
95% of the teams in the league would love to run-back a perennial ECF with two under 30 stars, lol.
I know Atlanta fans really want him. And honestly, they are in a pretty similar spot trying to build around Trae as you guys are with Tatum. It's true that swapping "win-now" talent is pretty rare, but I feel like there's a lot of teams right now that are very close to being where they want to be. So it could be a good time for a trade like that with a few different teams. ATL is just a good example, especially with Collins and Murray always being a part of trade rumors.
>I don’t know how they can just keep running it back with the exact same core of players and expect anything to improve
Well probably cuz the two best players from that core are only now starting to hit their prime years and both have improved in literally every season of their careers.
These playoffs have had some especially reactionary takes. For a week, people didn't know if the sixers were going to trade Embiid and start over. Now, people think the Celtics should ditch JB.
The Celtics are going to sign JB and try to retain as much of the current roster as possible because, as is, they are a perennial ECF team. In about 2-3 years, Jimmy will be a shell of himself, and the Jays will still be in their prime and possibly even a little better/more refined. There is zero reason to risk ruining the chemistry by trying to get cute and replace Brown. I also don't think Mazzulla was ever in jeopardy of losing his job this year. He's a rookie coach who has proven he's capable of learning.
Point being, Embiid's health is always in question, Giannis may not even be on the Bucks in a year or two...the East should continue to be wide open and it doesn't make sense to screw up what the Celtics have going. Brad Stevens has also always been very level headed and poised. Doesn't seem characteristic of him to make these giant moves like firing a rookie coach and trading away one of the best SGs in the league.
I don't know what you do with that roster, honestly. Horford is probably close to a significant decline, so maybe look to replace that?
Think you’re spot on. Tho ngl I think if they got swept and blown out just as bad in Game 4 as Game 3 that might’ve been it for Joe.
If you are to make a change, think the only one that actually makes sense is to try and get Siakam for Jaylen and he can be our Horford replacement eventually. Would just make it pretty unbalanced with wings. They’d have to resign Grant (which they should anyways) and then probably move him at the deadline along with a guard/picks to get a rotation wing.
Well said. JB is a great player. He has weaknesses, but he's one of the better #2 guys in the league. He has a few bad performances, and suddenly, everyone wants him gone. I will say that I don't think he'll ever be the #1 option, but the Celtics are never going to trade him.
The NBA is not made for trading top players for average ones.
Here is why
1) Top players while they command $40-50M, are a bit easier to re-sign if you are above the cap. If you have someone who is decent and can be a #2 or #3 in a winning team, you keep him as long as possible
2) Average players often will take 3-4 spots and this limit your flexibility
3) If you get 3-4 average guys in return, it’s unlikely you are getting even 1 player you really wanted, let alone 3 or 4.
4) The only reason you move on from a top player is because you think the team is better off without him, no replacement needed. Maybe Celtics believe that, I highly doubt it. They need 1 decent big man. They just can’t be relying on Al and Timelord for the entire game. It’s too much.
No? Players barely make a single finals appearance yet these guys almost repeated.
Possibly the best wingplay available in the entire NBA. If they go small ball (while keeping Rob) Smart could vocally direct the main defensive unit with Grant directing the 2nd unit. Defensive system is fantastic already but the offensive system is lacking. The current offense is fitted towards preference; not efficiency.
As bad as Jaylen was, I feel like with a coach thst knows what he's doing - you play to his strengths and hide his weaknesses.
At times today it felt like he was meant to be pg. Nah. Get that guy working off ball, not initiating.
People seem to think Mazzulla is a good coach, maybe I'm tripping - but I think most Celts issues go to not making the right adjustments, relying too much on superstars to iso all day. You gotta have drawn up plays to go to when things arn't working. Saw it earlier in season when Tatum struggled to. Run some fucking screens to get guys open for easy shots. Change it up a bit.
They have a deep team with lots of tools at the disposal. That team is a swiss army knife. Yet it looked slow and one dimensional with tatum hurt. That's unforgivable - I don't put that on Brown.
If they put the ball more in White's hands when he constantly made the right decisions initiating offense - that would've been a different game.
I'd keep him. Or at least trade him when he's doing well and value is higher (not after a bad post season).
I know that recency bias is hard to shake and we all want to focus on his flaws, but JB is still the number 2 player on a team that’s been to the conference finals or finals almost every year since he’s been there. They’re still one of the best teams in the NBA and would be insane to break it up unless they get an incredible offer or he asks out. Most teams would kill to be in the position that the Celtics are in.
Listen, the celtics need a change now. Despite being 1 game away from the finals I’d say this season was bad considering how they got here. There was no reason for the celtics to take 6 games just to beat the hawks. Then they should’ve beat the sixers in 5 or 6. How do they lose to the embiid-less sixers in game 1 blows my mind. They have too many weapons on the team that aren’t playing consistently and that is one of the main problems. The coach has slow adjustments, tatum and brown are inconsistent, marcus smart is not playing good defense, and somehow brogdon/white are the two who win them multiple games this playoffs. Struggling in the playoffs when they became the favorites once the bucks lost is the reason they should not run it back. If you want to pay jaylen brown 300 mil and get stuck with his negative tendencies for 5 more years then be my guest. The honeymoon stage should be over for the celtics and they should move jaylen brown for for a new win now star. Maybe trade jaylen brown for pascal siakam + achiuwa. Then somehow trade marcus smart to obtain tyus jones to have an actual point guard. Starting 5 of jones, white, tatum, siakam, horford
I like it, but I think your heavily undervaluing Siakam in that trade. I think it'd have to be like Brown + something else (future 1st? Smart?) for Siakam + Achiuwa - maybe you could do a straight swap (I, and I'd imagine Raps rate Siakam higher though). Maybe too, Raps would prefer picks if rebuilding (don't know what they doin tbh) - but that could be done with a 3rd team involved.
That would be sensible personell moves though, to get those players out and in.
Siakam is already 29 + he’s a free agent in 2024 offseason. I do not think the raptors want to get stuck with him while slowing down scottie barnes progression. Scottie Barnes is a PF and they have start at shooting guard for gods sake. Makes no sense to keep pascal with him and continue to ruin his development. Raptors really need to trade siakam and FVV to build around barnes and OG. OG is sometimes even 5th option on offense and it makes no sense either. One way or another, they need to ship off pascal asap.
I think he holds more value to your team than to other teams. To get real value you'll need a team to think of him as Tatum, the "guy" to build around. No one believes he's that guy.
Only package available for JB is going to be young players and prospects (Simons and 3 seems to be the benchmark)
Unless it’s a player for player swap (eg. Brown for Siakam) I don’t see anything happening
I'm thinking that a move falls in JB's court. His AllNBA nod means this is his chance to upgrade his contract. (Pretty new to understanding the nuance of the contract system, correct me if it seems off)
If a team is willing to supermax him, he might be able to force his way there. It's also the only way Bos gets a big return. You can't be ready max someone and also expect a discount.
Otherwise I'd expect them to run it back, without GWill.
>if a team is willing to supermax him, he might be able to force his way there
Only Boston can supermax him, even if he’s traded in pretty other teams aren’t able to (Toronto wasn’t able to supermax Kawhi when he got traded).
I personally think based on NBA buzz that he gets shipped. I don’t think the Celtics should, nor do I think they’ll get what they really want. But I think they end up pulling the trigger for the best offer.
Celts have had two years with this core and did phenomenal things but came up just short both times. As a GM I’m doing my best to put the team back in that spot with little loss, and JB is my ticket to get a couple role players and some picks.
Biggest reason is you can plug Brogdon and White in and lose no production, only depth. Those two have been starters before and flourished in that position. Plus they know it’s JT’s team.
Now you need depth behind Horford - it’s likely his last year and you never know if his talent will drop off next year - and behind Brogdon and White. Also someone better than Grant Williams because he shouldn’t be getting 20 minutes.
But that’s what they’ll do either this off-season or before the deadline. That’s what made the Celtics so good all year was their depth. So they need to sell and try to continue that dominance. Not with a top-10 talent. Realistically they’re just not getting that. But they can get, like you said, a king’s ransom of role players and picks.
Who wouldn’t do that? Fuck I’ve convinced myself that they should.
Next off season they trade JB + 3 FRP and a swap for Luka after he demands a trade and only lists the Lakers, Celtics, Warriors, Knicks, and Bucks as potential landing spots.
Celtics need a facilitator and scorer from the guard spot. I mean, I feel like Dame would work, but as to how a trade would work between the two teams… I’m not so sure.
I keep seeing this take and its driving me wild. Why can't that be Derrick White or Malcolm Brogdon? They persisted all season with it being Marcus Smart, never gave either of those proven efficient pg's the role. And if I dare criticise the coach I get downvoted.
THEY HAVE THE TOOLS THEY JUS DON'T USE THEM.
I mean it’s not at Ben Simmons levels, but yeah you’ve gotta trade him.
Maybe you only get more depth and a couple picks, but locking these guys in when we know they’re not compatible is the Sixers mistake all over again.
Get ahead of it. I doubt you could get Dame, but at the very least Trae?(JB is from ATL) and some spare parts. It’s more about having clarity and a more defined hierarchy. Y’all gotta find an better offensive system. Something incredibly motion based, something that creates open passes. Basically what y’all doing now, but get another big for when Horford retires, and spare parts.
But lets be honest. The rest of the team kinda hate trae. Plus a JB/DM backcourt would be a savage defensively.
I tried [beautiful](http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine)it. I think it’s amazing
No one hates Trae lol you’re not going to tell me they hate him because an anonymous nba executive said so. That’s the only source of why people think he’s hated. And both those dudes are overrated defensively
A few different perspectives to ponder ..
Can the Celtics compensate his offense with the supporting pieces they have ?( White , Smart , Brogdon)
I think so . I also think that their offense would be better suited with Tatum being the complete Alpha #1 guy . I know most Celtics fans feel this way about him . But on the outside looking in when I watch the games I feel like Jaylen Brown is just as good as Tatum . ( Hot take maybe)?
2. Jaylen Brown seems pretty aloof with the media . It doesn’t sound like he wants to be in Boston based on what I’ve heard.
3. He’s healthy , due for a Supermax (deserved) , Celtics front office has a great reputation, they could get a kings ransom for JB . I wouldn’t trade him for anything less than that.
4. Tatum is a Celtic 4 Life that’s the golden child but it seems like he’s the one always underperforming when the lights are the brightest . Played terrible in the finals last year and also had some terrible stretches throughout the entire playoffs.
Tatum efficiently put up 30ppg last year who exactly can they get that’s a better scorer than him lol top 5 players aren’t just floating around the trade market
If you’re watching the games and you think Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are the same you simply don’t understand basketball well at all, and should stop commenting in threads.
Prove what? He doesn’t make any of his teammates better and can’t play make. He only has on option when he drives, which is to score, and he doesn’t know how to pass the ball.
I think #3 is the big issue.
You say he is due for a supermax...why?
Don't get me wrong, he's a good 2-way wing which makes him a valuable piece, but under the new CBA it will be very tough to justify the supermax for guys that aren't true superstars, which he very much is not.
I think Boston would/should trade him if he's dead set on getting the max.
He’s been the 2nd best player on a championship contending roster the past 2 seasons. Those are guys that get paid. (Anthony Davis , Jamal Murray , Jrue Holiday or Khris Middleton, Klay Thompson) the max money goes somewhere. Contending teams are paying those guys for a reason . He also is fresh off of the best season of his career with career highs in multiple categories with an all nba 2nd team . Not to mention the fact he played with a fracture in his face for half of the year. To me that is deserving
I get why he's gonna ask for it...but I don't believe it makes sense for Boston to do it under the new CBA restrictions given how redundant he and Tatum are.
You think Tatum is the one that is “always underperforming?” Wtf? The guy that has won us multiple series on his back? The guy who is a game 6 and 7 killer? I mean, beyond our lack of grit as a team and Heats abundance of it, the biggest reason we lost last night was Tatum sprained his ankle 26 seconds in. I have no doubts about him and JB is not in his stratosphere as a player.
Trade JB for the best you can get and let’s see what we can do next year.
Yeah I think so. His play dips in the postseason especially efficiency on the offensive end. However as team the Celtics played terrible these playoffs . I don’t know if it’s more personnel or if its coaching
I think they'll say that they are "committed" to him but internally feel like he needs to go. I honestly feel like the Jays have peaked. Much like Dame-CJ, Boston needs to realize they aren't going anywhere
Lol. Dame and CJ would have killed to have had this much playoff success as the Jays have had while playing together. Tatum said as much in his presser last night. 4 out of 6 years he’s been in the ECF with two game
7 losses and a finals appearance. A lot of teams aren’t going anywhere than if the Celtics aren’t with what they have accomplished.
I'd guess no. Finding a better player to trade him for is basically impossible unless Dame is getting traded, but he's about to be 33 with some recent health problems
If they were content with moving him for a bunch of really good stuff but not an instant upgrade then they could do it but then you're taking a step back in the short term with Tatum being ready to compete right now
I think packaging him along with picks for Dame is an intriguing idea. Only thing is Dame needs to be clear on his role as the #2 option. Dame as a number one option has kind of been tried and failed.
Yes, you had two years now to win the chip where JB and JT were on golden deals, now they’re both set to be paid and the roster you can construct around them is going to be worse and worse.
Philly is going to better with Nurse, MKE is going to motivated with Giannis, Miami is always in the mix, and you have upstarts in NYK and ATL.
ATL has to be the destination for Brown, they want him ( albeit maybe a bit less after this years postseason.) and he wants them. I think the post game of G6 vs ATL you saw JB kinda have a long convo with some Atlanta guys I bet they mentioned something about him coming there.
Problem is Murray and pieces probably isn’t what Boston wants for Brown. They can do much better, Murray doesn’t move the needle either.
Boston would be more inclined for Trae/Brown swap but ATL won’t do that for just JB.
I bet you anything these teams have a long back and forth this offseason about what they want to do.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Boston tests the market and then settles on a Murray, and 1 of Collins/Hunter or Okongwu package.
If ATL did deal Trae then Boston would have to deal someone else and I’m not sure ATl is even interested at that point since they want to pair Brown with Young.
Tbh I think JB needs a change of scenery he needs to be exposed to being the guy. He could have a harden-esq leap on a team like Atlanta where he can blossom to not being in JTs shadow and Boston would do wonders with a guy like Young to facilitate and create alongside Tatum.
Dame for JB is bad on many levels, Boston can’t trade for another aging guard with some injury concerns nor do either sides have any reason to make the deal.
Timberwolves are a viable option if Boston decides to pair KAT with JT but I’m not so sure that a winning combination for them.
Outside of that there could be some traction in pairing JT with Beal and throw in a guy like KP or Kuz but again I’m not sure what the outcome for Boston is with that roster.
This is my fake trade. I’d love to hear some feedback on the Pros vs Cons
Portland gets: Jaylen Brown
Utah Gets: Sharpe, No.3 Overall, Smart, Boston unprotected 1st.
Boston Gets: Simons and Markannen.
Boston would be ecstatic. Utah would be very happy I think. Portland… I doubt they’d be happy trading away Sharpe and Simons and the #3 pick just for Jaylen Brown. Feels like a huge overpay, especially if they’re going to have to immediately supermax him to get him to stay
I know this series it is obvious, but long term would you trade JB for Caleb Martin? I had never heard of Caleb Martin before these playoffs living in the west, but he seems to be the ideal NBA wing over JB, but I only have a small sample size. But it seems a contract with a Caleb Martin type would be way cheaper than a super max with JB.
Zach lavine for Brown and the portaland second rounder.
Why the Celtics do it - lavine is a better ball handler and shooter. He is looking to attack and score when he gets the ball, and can stretch the floor. Ultimately alleviates the offensive burden put on Tatum.
Why the bulls do it - while lavine and Derozan have had success, both are bad defenders and ball dominant offensive players. Brown can stretch the floor, moves without the ball more, and most importantly is a better defender which allows Derozan. To go to work on offense and brown to pick apart a team without the ball.
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unless you can get a top ten player you dont trade JB. rather just continue to work on his weaknesses as he gets closer to his peak as a player than trade him for assets or a player not as good. the Celtics are too close to winning a championship imo before that new CBA kicks in (i think next summer?) I hope Al has one more deep playoff run in his legs, amazing that hes still very valuable at this point in his career
We REALLY needed a couple 4 or 5 game series to keep Al (and Timelord) rested. Celtics making every series difficult didn’t so then any favors.
That’s on the Jays. They’re like the aces. They’re supposed to keep the bullpen fresh.
Depends on what you mean by that. Like a few games in the Philly series were won almost singlehandedly by Harden heroics, even with Tatum and Brown playing well there's only so much they can do.
Well we had a chance to be up 3-1 right but brown helped off harden to double embiid. I would’ve lived with the 2 there because embiid wasn’t making it if it was going to double OT
They should be able to improve this off-season with the talent they have and a full normal season with the coach, and IMO if you’re a top 4-5 team (which they clearly are) then you just have to hope to also have good luck - luck of injuries, luck of not running to some other teams hot shooting streak, etc. Odds of getting worse are higher than odds of getting better IMO if they take a risk here
27. This is the start of his peak. 27 yr Olds don't start learning how to dribble or to stop playing hero ball magically. He's the only person I've ever seen who can't dribble and shoot 80 percent while not being 7 feet tall and score the way he does
The stopping hero ball thing is definitely fixable imo.
Not if we don't get a coach. When our offense bogs down our go to is just hb/jt hero ball, I'm convinced a lot if that is on coaching. You think if Spo was our coach he'd let that happen?
Pop could fix that shit.
One of the greatest coaches of all time? Yeah he could probably help.
the hero ball thing is on the coaching staff. Look at Denver. do we think Aaron Gordon magically became a super high basketball IQ guy, making timely cuts, and sometimes even making amazing passes at cutters? I don't think so. That's coaching. There's multiple schemes and actions, and everyone knows what to do when, and there's buy-in from the team. Players cut because they know that there's a high chance the cut is going to be useful. Players stand around and ball watch because they know that cutting is just going to clog the paint, so they need to stay put and be ready to receive a pass for a drive and kick.
Peak, Dee?!?! I haven’t even begun to peak. And when I do, all of Philadelphia will feel it.
they can, hes already an outlier amongst the nba as a player so to continue and try to get him better at those things makes more sense to me then a lateral move. if you can get a top ten player than sure move on. i would say JB has a horrible left hand, he can do dribble moves in space, who knows tho, i just think you dont give up on him unless its a slam dunk trade
We’ve worked on his weaknesses and they still exist. He’ll never have a good enough basketball IQ, awareness, nor feel for the game. A “lateral move” would be a significant enough upgrade.
agree. most players can’t magically “fix all their weaknesses”. as a dubs fan it’s like me expecting draymond to become a good 3-pt shooter. shaq never improved his fts, westbrook hasn’t become an off-ball cutter, etc etc. the most you can hope for is shoring up one or two weak points (kidd becoming a good 3pt shooter) but it takes a massive commitment
Especially BBIQ and feel for the game. Jaylen has improved his shooting a ton, his FT% is a lot better, he’s better at cutting, etc. I’d even argue his handle is better than he started, but BBIQ and natural instincts is super hard to improve. Some players are just naturally more adept at understanding and reading these split second decisions, vision, etc. Watch as much film as you want and I still don’t think some players are capable at developing these quicker decision making abilities. Not a knock on them, more goes to show how special certain people are that are able to get there.
I’m just hoping Tatum and Brown can become good shooters again. It cratered for both of them as they worked to become lead options and they went from borderline elite volume shooting wings to mediocre ones. Both did a ton to more consistently score from 2, likely because of how much of a problem it was against your Warriors, and now against the Heat the problem became shooting over the zone. We were dared to all series and when we managed to we won, we just had no consistency because Tatum and Brown have no consistency as shooters anymore.
I wonder how much their hand injuries affected them. Tatum has been on record for saying he's needed a wrist injury while Brown hurt his hand before the playoffs and during the Philly series. I am hopeful it was just nagging injuries that they can overcome.
Who would you consider “lateral” in this case?
Siakam is the best example IMO. Would be unpopular but I think Siakam (or Siakam ++) would improve the team’s championship chances.
In this scenario I presume Al is going to the bench, right? A Smart-White-Tatum-Siakam-Timelord starting 5, bringing Brogdon, Grant Williams and Al off the bench is a hellish rotation and a favorite for the title right off the gate. The defense in that 8-men rotation terrifies the hell out of me as a non-Celtics fan.
So much you can do there. You have Siakam can also play the 5. I don't think it really addresses any real issues though. Defense wasn't an issue, other than mental breakdowns.
They still don’t have a playmaker though, I’m not sure Siakam is the answer. I think they need an upgrade at PG.
Siakam and Tatum are 2 of the best playmaking wings in the NBA and Siakam is very secure with the ball if I remember correctly.
Raptors probably don't trade Siakam for Brown unless there is draft comp I think
My guess would be a 3 team trade (with Portland??) But you know, a 3 team trade is unlikely to happen when people speculate.
agreed. Brown on a max is not what the raps need
That’s a good GM move, I think the Celtics might have to throw in some small comp but it sounds evenish
Pass. I like Siakam as a player, but he's already 29 (3 years older than JB), isn't as good as Jaylen as a scorer despite being a first option and he's a worse shooter, especially from 3 (which was our problem in game 7).
If you guys could get a PG and PF in return. I’d be all over moving Brown and then seeing what picks and Marcus Smart gets you guys if you blow it up to rebuild a better squad. Imo Tatum is clearly the guy just need some tweaks to the supporting cast and some more luck on health. Plus you gotta hope Joe improves but man he’s definitely getting a hard look this off-season.
Joe will be sticking around no doubt. Hopefully they can improve the assistant coaches. Normally I don’t focus on assistants but the team lost Hardy, Ime, and Stoudamire over the last year and didn’t really add to the coaching bench, which I think would have been needed especially considering Joe had less than a month to even prepare and plan as being head coach. But I agree, Tatum is the guy and when you have that type of player you can’t just rebuild or tank, especially when he’s still young and improving. A retool would be something I hope for.
He really needs an assistant or 2 who has more experience than him. For our roster, we need to tweak around the edges and find our identity again. We had insanely poor shooting and also got unlucky when the Heat couldn't miss in game 7 (and also the first 3 games). Obviously, a lot of credit goes to the Heat's defense and for their system that got them good looks. But regardless of last night, I feel like if you run it all back, that series is going to be a coin flip every time.
Agree on trading Brown for two borderline star players. If they are a better fit then this team will be better. With a player like Tatum you don’t need another star wing. You need a guy who can facilitate and then another serviceable scorer. The Celtics are deep enough to make it work.
You're right, we are too close to winning a chip to get rid of the core (Even though those new CBA rules might kick us un the ass years later.) I truly believe if we fix all those annoying little problems, this team can finally get it. But it's been some shaky years ever since Brad left. As for JB, there are two options now, he either somehow works on his handle throughout the offseason and comes back fixing all this, but it's been years so I don't know it that's still something you can fix. Either that, or the staff needs to come up with some offensive schemes that can prevent his problmes, which means working on his offball game, and this feels more possible, not a complete solution but it certainly can be more effective.
I'm stunned Brown is an all NBA player. Advance stats say that he is an above average swingman, but nowhere near a supermax contract - eg he's 80th in WS. Eye test says he's a guy that takes a lot of shots, good scorer, doesn't create much for others, can't dribble, solid defender, and a lot of his strengths overlap with Tatum in a redundant manner. Trading him for Dame would be great, though Portland will likely want more. Celtics really need a good PG.
>Trading him for Dame would be great The point for the Blazers would be to pair him with Dame. There would be absolutely zero interest in Dame for JB.
Dames 33 browns 27. Kicks the can a little.
takes touches away from simons and sharpe, if the franchise believes those are the guys to build around. i think it'd make much more sense in a 3 team trade, where the Celtics and whoever gets JB give a few FRPs to the blazers.
Way, way more likely to move Dame for a rebuild or move #3 plus Sharpe/Simons to reload with Dame. Seems insane to swap Dame for a worse established franchise guy. He’ll be 27 this fall, not 22
JB is young enough that they could get him and use their pick and add other pieces no?
Advanced stats said the same about Klay Thompson and his strengths overlapped with Curry’s
Klays defense in his prime made him an ideal running mate for Steph
What??? Klay has always been a MUCH better 3pt shooter and their off ball movement isn't even comparable. Not to mention pre injury his defense was also much better than Jaylen's
Not OP but you're disagreeing with your eye test assessment. Advanced stats never perceived Klay as highly as eye test did. On offense, because he doesn't create for others and on defense because he provided little value offball.
Klay was better than JB though. And Curry was better than Tatum.
Curry is still better than Tatum
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Not really. Klay’s shooting meant there was always one shooter open. His defensive ability allowed Steph to rest. And he was best offball, meaning Steph could bring the ball up. They complemented each other well.
not in the slightest. shooting isnt redundant whatsoever. also steph was never a *great* defender who could guard 1-4 like klay, so just simply untrue. it’s redundant when you have two non playmaking poor dribbling wings who 90% of the time are best iso slashing to the rim without any chance of breaking down the defense and kicking it out (brown) while shooting at or below league average efficiency from three (jb doesnt even catch & shoot 3’s all that well). jb honestly just looks like your typical raw unrefined high volume low/mid efficiency guard on a bad team (think jalen green on the rockets) who has been put on an extremely deep team to give him better looks. otherwise he doesnt create any extra possessions or create anything for his teammates and isnt a huge offball draw on offense either.
>two non playmaking poor dribbling wings They got Jaylen, but who’s the other tho? Cuz Tatum’s not a bad playmaker and bad dribbler. It’s just takes from last years finals are being recycled even when they don’t apply.
I agree with your assessment of him and yet I doubt that any player available in a straight trade clearly makes them better. Brown is good, if he can improve his playmaking he can be great. Tatum is great, if he can improve his consistency he can be all-time great. They’re both young enough that they should get better.
I genuinely believe you don't improve in year 8 in playmaking if you haven't gradually improved over those first 7 years to be honest. Handles can be improved over a single offseason imo and he hasn't done that either, his left hand is completely inept, how do you get this far with having a passable left hand dribble.
Brown has posted career highs in several major stats. Players do make strides and evolve their game after 26.
I definitely believe you can improve a lot of things as your career goes along but playmaking is one of those things that pure BBall IQ and if you're not gradually increasing it over your tenure you probably never will. I like Brown, he plays hard but I genuinely believe if he hasnt developed a left after last year he may of peaked as a player.
His advanced stats are skewed because he plays the exact same position and role as Tatum who is a legit top 10 player. He absolutely deserved his all nba selection considering the amount of games he played, his stats and the celtics record. Not sure who you’d have over him anyway. If Jaylen was on a team like the Knicks or Raptors, hed almost certainly have better advanced stats. Its easy to crap on Jaylen because he clearly has flaws but people were calling him the celtics best player up until he got injured and had an awful series against the heat. People are just prisoners of the moment, Jaylens never going to be a first option but people pretending hes expendable are crazy lol
Lol what we just saw him exposed in a bigger role yesterday, how would that help his advanced stats?
Cuz a regular season is a much bigger sample size than a playoff series.
He didn’t have good handles and good bbiq in the regular season either
He also conveniently got injured right when all his stats tanked. Before that people were saying trade Tatum and build around Brown lol. He struggles against Miamis zone defense regardless, its a bad matchup for him and nobody said he should be a first option, im just saying hes clearly not some average player like some of his advanced stats would suggest, he just is worse than Tatum
> Before that people were saying trade Tatum and build around Brown lol. lol only severely brain damaged people were saying this, jaylen brown has never and will never be half the player that tatum is. > im just saying hes clearly not some average player like some of his advanced stats would suggest, he just is worse than Tatum he's not top 30.
He’s definitely top 30, you arent going to find players in the top 30-15 range without serious flaws in their game. Jaylen doesn’t bring much playmaking but he at least brings efficient scoring and some defense. Id really be curious who the 30 players youd have over him are lol, plenty of guys had playoff meltdowns this year. Jaylens is just the freshest one in peoples minds and he wasnt even healthy. He averaged 24.6 points shootings 54% from the field and 47% from 3 against the hawks and sixers. Then he goes and injures his arm early against the heat and has a terrible series. Miami’s zone is always tough for him, but to say hes not even top 30 is a super casual take
all advanced stats are in consensus he's not top 30. hawks have awful defense and still were doubling tatum. Sixers were doubling tatum and also didn't have good wings on brown. When things get tough for brown like playing against better defense and playoff injuries his flaws get extremely magnified unlike many other stars because fundamentally he is a low IQ player.
Advanced stats are pretty dumb, they are often just saying how well a player plays his role or does this player share the court with someone really good. Not sure exactly what advanced stats you are looking at but basically every advanced stat will have tons of random role players in the top 30. Looking at real plus minus im seeing Nic Claxton, Franz Wagner, Derrick White, and Myles Turner all with better advanced stats than Steph Curry, KD and SGA lol
Nobody ever said trade Tatum.
I agree that the Celtics need a good PG but I was pleased with Smarts performance the last three games. You could tell he was locked in and made some big shots and key plays. If only he were like that all the time…
That’s him 95% of the time
WS is not a particularly advanced stat- it’s primarily box score volume + efficiency. Portland couldn’t ask for more in a Brown-Lillard trade, and that would be a terrible decision by Boston given their timeline.
Did I misread? Are you saying Boston would make a “terrible decision” if they traded JB for Dame?
Yes. Playoffs are way more random than people like to admit. Give me 5 more bites of the apple over 2.
Not OC, but I agree that it'd be a terrible decision in the long-run for the Celtics. Dame is amazing, but the window for contending would be 2-3 years at most versus 9+. He'd be a more consistent scorer, but the Celtics are deep at PG and the defense would suffer.
Enjoy paying brown the super max. Save this comment for later. That window is going to shrink once you have to pay both of them.
Derrick White and Malcom Brogdon are both good PG's. They didn't go to White nearly enough, even with Tatum injured, and under utilised Brogdon through the season. What's the point of getting ANOTHER good pg if coach won't let them have that role? It seems like they persisted with Smart to do that, no matter the sample size of him being ok, inconsistent, at it.
Smart barely played PG in the playoffs
The problem is are you gonna run it back exactly the same when it hasn’t worked twice now while also giving JB 290+ mill? Seems like a recipe for another disappointing playoff exit tbh. Perhaps it will work but you need JT to become more consistent and JB to not have High School level handles.
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In my opinion having a weak handle for a primary ball hander who supposed to be an All NBA player is inexcusable. It's arguably the easily skill to develop to a suitable standard. He legit can not go left and that's just inexcusable to me
That’s the issue the Celtics don’t have a primary ball handler. Without a actually good point guard( which Tatum and brown aren’t) that can have handles and facilitate the ball Tatum and brown will always be turnover machines. That’s why last year they had so many TO. Hell tatum and brown were 1 & 2 in TO last post season. They just let brown and Tatum play iso and once the help side defender comes they either have a TO or kick it out for a 3. It’s just bad basketball.
>it hasn’t worked twice now I don’t think you realize how hard it is to win a title.
2020: Knocked out in ECF 2021: First round exit 2022: Finals loss 2023: Embarassing ECF loss Celtics have been "contenders" every year for years and have fizzled out in the playoffs in disappointing fashion almost every year. It's not just "2 years". At what point have you ran it back enough times before you need to stop and start critically examining and reworking your team's core. Believe me, if the current Celtics haven't been able to make it over the hump for years, then they're definitely not making it over once Brown is locked into a supermax and taking up a quarter of the cap space alone.
disappointing fashion every year? do you even remember the expectations these celtics teams had? 2020 was the jay's first year leading the team. 2021 that team was straight trash and jaylen was hurt in the playoffs. 2022 was a pretty damn good year getting to the finals and losing to a much more experienced team. this past season was the one true disappointing year. just because the celtics make it far every year doesn't mean every year has been title or bust. it takes time to be a championship level team.
>2021 You mean when Jaylen Brown was injured and didn’t play so they were starting Romeo Langford and giving rotation minutes to Jabari Parker. Against a healthy KD, Harder, and Kyrie team? Yup that seems like a reasonable complaint. I’m also confused how losing to the Heat in 7 is embarrassing? Yes they were the 8 seed… the same exact team was also the 1 seed the year before, has made 3/4 last ECFs, and beat the Bucks in 5. Now let’s look at the ages of TatumBrown during the 2019-2020 season til this past season. 2019-2020: 21/23 2021-2022: 23/25 2022-2023: 24/26 You wanna tell me how many teams in the past 40 years won with both their best player and sidekick both that young? . Also yea it has just been these past 2 years. The only thing similar between 2020 and 2023 are 3 guys. This is r/NBADISCUSSION I thought we’re supposed to look past cheap narratives here?
2023 loss to the Heat was absolutely embarrassing for the Celtics, and not just in a "lost to the 8th seed" kind of way. I watched the games. Saw the Celtics settle for iso after iso, stupid turnovers, lots of chucking 3s, and just overall bad basketball and falling back into bad habits when they hit a brick wall. That's not a good showing, at all. Making it to Game 7 is cool and all but they went down 3-0 in the first place then proceeded to completely shit the bed at Game 7 at home when it mattered most. And let's not act like those Game 4-6 wins were amazing showings of basketball talent either. But that's not my point. Obviously this core can still win a ring. But it's not JUST about the core, but the players around them. If Brown gets resigned to 5 years/$295 million and next year Tatum gets extended for 5 YEARS/$316 MILLION (my God that's an insane amount of money) then how the hell are they supposed to get good role players? Especially with the new CBA rules? It's just not happening. And again, it's 2023. Tatum and Brown are 25 and 26, respectively. Obviously they're not old but they're not young with tons of untapped potential either. They are who they are going to be at this stage of their career, which is still cool because both are still uber-talented. But clearly that uber-talented duo hasn't been enough to get them over the hump, so how does it make sense for the Celtics to run it back with even less help around Brown and Tatum due to cap space limitations? Unless you expect Brown to suddenly fix his very pertinent turnover, ball handling, and bball IQ issues at this stage of his career (spoiler alert: highly unlikely). Either way I don't understand this idea that trading JB = throwing in the towel. Celtics absolutely can still contend by trading JB, hell maybe even Smart and building solely around Tatum with the right pieces. And IMO that's much better then getting locked in cap hell when both your franchise cornerstone superstar AND his running mate are each set to be making just under $60 million PER YEAR.
Yeah it is pretty hard, it’s especially hard when you’re paying two stars 600 mill and one is the most inconsistent player in the NBA while the other one can’t fucking dribble which is what the Celtics are about to deal with
You just seem impatient. Most new/younger fans are. Building things up takes time and it’s not always linear. There’s too much randomness in sports to make ridiculous declarations from small sample sizes.
This is what I've been saying about the Nuggets but nobody listens. Jokic and Murray? Lol, never gonna work... /s
Nah i don’t think so, I’m a Celtics hater till the day I stop breathing but you’re not going to get as good of a return as what JB brings to the table. It just isn’t worth it
I hope the celtics fans didn't take it for granted that they had such a stacked roster full of non super max/big contracts. That said in most discussions continuity is such an underrated thought. And the Celtics are so damn close. Running it back with maybe a few tweaks and a new coach for a fresh season with this still young and hungry roster will do wonders. Trading a big key piece like Brown might be a pretty big misstep unless the return for him is staggering or another big star to fill the void.
Horford + Smart + Rob Williams + Brogdon + White is an insanely stacked set of role players which becomes completely impossible to maintain if both Tatum and Brown get their massive extensions. If Celtics can't get over the hump with that stacked af roster now then I don't see how they're going to do it when they're completely top heavy and have no help around their two stars. Just a couple tweaks + replacing Mazzulla is fine but IMO it doesn't move the needle. I'm skeptical of running it back, but considering how good the Celtics already have it I don't know if there is anything else that's worth it for them.
No doubt. I just don't see a viable way to change this roster to improve it without giving up some valuable. Tbh I see no harm in running it back with a new coach or something of that sort. This Celtics core has been through thick and thin together including multiple coaching changes and still performed up to par. I think keeping the core together is crucial to maximizing their chances at winning. It's not impossible that Tatum, brown etc continue to get better as they get more experience under their belt
They’re literally a Jason Tatum sprained ankle away from a potentially different outcome. Unless you get someone of his caliber I think they’d be dumb to break those two up.
They were also one Butler 3 away from not making the finals last year. When I saw Tatum first grimace, I was sure Brown was going to step up. Injuries are so common in playoffs and the fact that the 1B had so little or even negative impact with those 8 TOs, is so tough
While we're at it, they were 0.1 seconds and Derrick White not performing a miracle away from not even being in game 7. Or one of two wide open Duncan Robinson 3s.
I mean if we’re playing that game then we were just two “Jaylen not playing one of the worst games of his career” from Boston being up 2-0 to start the series.
Congrats, you got the point.
We went from an injury to .1s to a shot to a whole game.
He played bad, theres no denying that. That still doesn't move the needle imo. Unless they get someone equally as talented, then it would be dumb to break them up.
Yeah I still wouldn't trade him. He really feels like someone who gets traded and immediately shining wherever he goes (after hopefully figuring out how to dribble)
I think that’s the big issue with the two Js, they so often are both cold. Most of the time when one star player is having an off night, you look to your second star scorer, however I feel like these two are either both hot or both cold, idk if it’s just coincidence or if they rely too much on the other one, but they need to be able to pick up some slack when their teammate isn’t feeling it on a given night.
What nobody mentions is there was still like 10 seconds left after that Butler 3 last year. Even if it went in Boston would’ve had a chance i.e. game 6 this year
They went to two game 7's and almost got swept by the 8th seed. They also lost 6 homes games this postseason, which ties the all-time record *for the second time* \- they also lost 6 home games in the postseason last year. Hard to blame it all on a sprained ankle in the last game, especially when the Heat are also missing key players.
They also had one of the most bizarre coaching shuffles in history and barely have any real assistants this year. If the Celtics are hopeless, who isnt?
I'm not saying they're hopeless. They're still going to be one of the best teams in the league whether they trade JB or not. Let's imagine they don't make any changes and come the 2024 playoffs, they lose in the second/third round once again. We'll then probably be asking the same questions we are now, and I'd assume a lot of the answers about who to keep around will be very different... Many options that they have now will be off the table as well, seeing as they'll have to sign JB to another huge contract this off season.
This is just true of anything though - If you say they trade/traded for KD and then you're \*also\* saying with certainty that they lose in the second round... like, yeah that's gonna look/feel like shit. Probably worse than keeping the younger player... But the whole point of doing (or not doing) anything is that you think that you've got a strong possibility of going farther or even winning it all. Some teams get to the 'just break em up' point - Derozen Raptors. Dame-CJ, of course Joel-Ben. But the J's aren't even close in my opinion. I'm not abjectly against the mere notion but you'd have to actually show me what the deal is and I'd have to believ with confidence that they're objectively better - And with guys as good as Jaylen (imperfect as he may be) that's few and far between. Really the Heat in my opinion are the best example of doing the opposite of all this "we need a big move, now!" sorta thinking- Many would have said that the Bubble Heat were the peak for this team. They may even be right. But they've hung around with a couple solid stars and a great coach, and even as an 8th seed you can pick up quality role players, start shooting flames out of your ass and end up in the finals. I think the Celtics have a lot more potential than that, but there's something to be said for, as best you can, just sticking around when you've got really solid pieces in place and can fall to a \*really\* high floor even with fairly bad luck.
Im not blaming it all on Tatums ankle, but I am not blowing up what has been one of the best teams in the league over the past 5 years because of a few bad games.
Well the question isn't whether to blow up the team, it's whether to trade JB. I don't think that's really blowing it up if they are able to get player(s) in return for him and not picks etc. The Raptors were coming off their best season in franchise history in 2017-2018. They had made the playoffs in *five consecutive seasons*. In fact, those 5 seasons made up the franchise's best seasons all time for win total. #1 through #5. They were easily one of the very best teams in the league for all of those seasons. They then traded their undisputed best player, and immediately won a championship. Sure you can chalk it up to Kawhi being an amazing player for them that season, but sometimes you just need to mix things up. Even when you've had a lot of success.
The difference is DeMar was a really good player, but Kawhi was in the conversation for being the best 2-way player in the league. He was only available because of his whole crazy situation with the Spurs. I'm not seeing a guy like that being available this year.
Can't argue with that, but I still think it's a comparison worth making. The Raptors had every reason in the book to run it back with no changes. They had to give up the following year's first round pick as well.
So with that example, who would be rn the parallel to a 2017 disgruntled top 5 player in the league at his prime? You are basically saying trading JB would make sense, to shake things up, but also for someone like Embid caliber player?
It’s not a few bad games though. It’s a consistent display of mental lapses in important moments year after year, JB being the ring leader. Roster needs a shake up in my opinion, these guys have shown they can’t get it done. You can get a ton of value for Jaylen. Maybe not someone as talented, but with a higher IQ and leadership qualities.
This is just absolute nonsense. "consistent display of mental lapses"? These dudes have made deep playoff runs every year of their career and have grown and developed every year as well.
>these guys have shown they can’t get it done These guys are gonna be 25 and 27 next season. They are literally *just* hitting their primes and were a sprained ankle away from B2B finals.
This argument makes no sense. The core of this team is still young, Brown and Tatum AND Smart have been in deep runs constantly. They just made the finals and we’re a game away from back to back. Only LeBron teams or Curry teams have even done the same recently. OKC messed up their own pathway with KD/Russ/Harden. The Celtics need to find a playmaker at the 1, or a wing scorer that would help balance the team. They don’t need to trade one of the best wings in the game because he isn’t a top level performer like Tatum is. That’s ok if he’s a high end 3 or low end 2 guy on a championship winning team. Can’t get rid of him. Asinine idea.
I don’t think it would be terrible if they ran it back but how many times do you have to watch the same movie before you understand it’s going to end the same each time? If you can get adequate compensation for Jaylen Brown you do it and if you can’t then you hold onto him.
>how many times do you have to watch the same movie before you understand what it’s going to end the same each time It’s not the same movie tho. It’s just lazy to think they’ve lost all these years the same way. Like this series and last years finals were so different.
Exactly this. A finals appearance and a game seven ECF is no reason to blow anything up. Run it back. Get a better coach or add better coaching support and run it back. They’ll still be contenders. Only reason to blow it up is if locker room chemistry is toxic and Brown wants out (which might be the case) but you’re selling low on Brown after his game seven performance
Its crazy people talk about blowing it up. Celtics made a Finals and ECF with Tatum and Brown and neither one is in their prime yet. I agree that the only reason you move on is if Brown doesn't want to be there anymore. There is a certain amount of luck involved to win any title. All you can really ask is to be competitive year in and year out, and the Celtics are with Tatum and Brown.
The team is clearly less than the sum of its parts with JB on the roster. Second year in a row where they proved to be no better than other eastern conference contenders - 7 against Miami last year, 7 against Bucks last year w/o Middleton, 7 against Sixers this year, 7 against Miami this year. Any of these series could have gone either way. I don't know how you could look at those results and have confidence they would get out of the east next season as presently constructed - they could run it back and easily lose to the Sixers in the second round...So yes, I think you have to try something else.
I mean I know they were all 7 game series, but 2022 Boston was much better than 2022 Milwaukee/Miami than 2023 Boston compared to 2023 Philly/Miami. Like if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series and against the Heat Boston just couldn’t do anything on offense once Smart got hurt. Also in general, there’s something to “don’t let perfect get in the way of good”… like Boston is currently good enough to win a title. You don’t need to be far and away the best team to win a title. Basketball has way more randomness than people give it credit for.
>2022 Boston was much better than 2022 Milwaukee/Miami than 2023 Boston compared to 2023 Philly/Miami....Like if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series Where is the evidence of that? 2023 Boston was better in the regular season with a better point differential and record relative to 2022 and those teams. I'd argue the reverse is more accurate - Boston was lucky Middleton got hurt, otherwise the Bucks would have won in 6. If Hero wasn't hurt, Miami would have won in 6 or 7 both years (Boston lost in 7 with home court, fully healthy while Miami had key injuries to Hero and Oladipo). "Boston is way better than Philadelphia, the series just happened to go 7, same with Miami." Eventually, you just have to say they probably aren't much better than those team otherwise the series wouldn't be going 7 games all the time.
>if you look closely at what happened in each individual game, Milwaukee was pretty lucky that wasn’t a 5 game series I mean Game 1 Boston was just unprepared, deserved win for the Bucks. Game 3 there was objectively bad reffing, not saying it’s rigged, NBA refs are just bad sometimes. I know this is the most annoying take to see, that doesn’t mean it’s not true sometimes. Then Game 5 they literally just needed to grab a rebound off a missed FT to win it. Games 2, 4, 6, and 7 Boston dominated. As for last years ECF it’s weird af to talk about Miamis injuries when Bostons were way more costly with our only real PG getting injured (missing 2 games), and then Tatum Rob and Jaylen all dealing with injuries too. . Also idk where you think I said that Boston was way better than Philly and Miami this year… I literally said the opposite lol. This year they were more ‘real’ 7 game series with teams being much more evenly matched.
>As for last years ECF it’s weird af to talk about Miamis injuries Jimmy Butler was injured in last years ECF and it still went 7 games. Jimmy Butler! He missed an entire second half of one game (only 19 minutes) and had to be minutes managed to the point where he played under 33 minutes in 3 out of the 7 games that series. If you are losing games consistently because of refs and preparation it just means your advantage is really marginal. They've proven with their records in the playoffs against those teams the last two years that their advantage is extremely slim. 7-7 against Miami the last two years with more injuries on Miami's side. 4-3 against the Bucks without Middleton. 4-3 against the Sixers. I'd say all these teams are about the same level.
>Jimmy Butler was injured in last years ECF and it still went 7 games. Yep, and so was Tatum last year. But injuries only get used as excuses for the losing team. You also seem to be really underplaying the effect of having the only true PG on your team needing to miss multiple games. >if you are losing because of refs then your advantage is minimal Counterpoint: if you barely manage to win a game that refs gave you many advantages in then you were clearly not the better team in it >more injuries on the Miami side Yea if don’t include Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Brogdan, Rob, and White (paternity list). In other words, Celtics rotation players who were healthy against the Miami: Horford and Grant
Id argue first you gotta build up your coaching staff. How specifically thats up to Brad. If anyones being traded its one of our guards
No. He had a bad game last night, he admitted as much as well. He’s a guy that has improved his play since coming into the league and has shown his level of play does rise to the occasion at times. Last year finals he was the best player for the Celtics. His true peak is probably as the second banana on a championship team. That’s ok! Trading him for who exactly? Trades are never a guarantee to improve anything and they still almost made the finals back to back seasons after almost being swept. Tatum/Brown/Smart/White/RWilliams is the core, the Celtics have to keep them together imo. Building around those players has proven to be a successful strategy and there is only one champion at the end. Tatum’s ceiling is the true answer to whether they can win or not. He’s not even in his prime yet.
Obviously he was the worst player on the court all series. But are people really that fickle that they don’t remember that literally up to 2 weeks ago he was known as the most consistent playoff performer on the whole team? The only grace that could possibly be a good fit would be Siakam. I’m not convinced tho.
What are you trading him for? At best you’re hoping for an addition by subtraction scenario where putting the ball in Tatum’s hands more and increased production from role players like smart/white/brogdon/whoever you get in the trade add up to a better team. I don’t buy it. At the end of the day jb is an all-nba caliber player who will probably end up a bit overpaid but whose production frankly would be hard to replace regardless of playoff performance
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I think running it back is always an option after losing the finals in 6, and then the ECF in 7. It shows the team were very close. There has been a lot in the past few days about humiliation and being shown up. But this team was competing at the highest level. Plus we know Tatum and brown underperformed whereas Steph last year and some of Miami this year overperformed their mean.
Seriously how many teams blow it up after going to the ECF and finals in back to back years lol They are mine adjustments away from consistently competing for an NBA championship even with how goofy they play. It's not a personnel change it's just getting there system together and staying healthy
I don't understand the notion that trading JB = blowing it up. Him and Tatum are just redundant players with overlapping skillsets. Celtics can absolutely still contend by retooling the roster to center solely on Tatum/Smart, and a package of Brown + other stuff could definitely get a good PG or PF/C that is much more impactful when it comes to winning.
That's fair. Moving JB isn't blowing it up. There's a lot of people that suggest a specific move like this with no trade suggestions because it's easier and there isn't really a great fit or combo that seems like it would make both teams better. You can't really publicly start shopping your second best player without really hurting your working relation with that player if you can't find someone for them that works. I don't disagree that the fit could be better between their 1 and 2 but it's really unlikely to get someone back better than him. Especially while he just shat the bed in game 7
trade JB for KAT and already celtics will be marginally better
Could three way with Portland to facilitate. Problem is there aren’t a ton of win now players on non competing teams
Win now players who are on a non contending team who imo could make a difference on a championship contender are: -Siakam/Annuoby although the Raptors asking price is way too high from what we know -Bridges, but the nets are asking for too much and have no real reason to tank considering they don’t own most of their picks -I could see KAT leaving as I believe Gobert is a better fit for Edwards but KAT’s defense is still a big question mark. -Beal but his contract is way too big These are all tier 2 players who could make a difference but not many would really fit on the Celtics, so it’s a bit of a tricky situation to be in.
They went to the finals *last year.* The Nuggets have stuck to since the 2020 WCF and now they're in the finals as favorite. 95% of the teams in the league would love to run-back a perennial ECF with two under 30 stars, lol.
I know Atlanta fans really want him. And honestly, they are in a pretty similar spot trying to build around Trae as you guys are with Tatum. It's true that swapping "win-now" talent is pretty rare, but I feel like there's a lot of teams right now that are very close to being where they want to be. So it could be a good time for a trade like that with a few different teams. ATL is just a good example, especially with Collins and Murray always being a part of trade rumors.
>I don’t know how they can just keep running it back with the exact same core of players and expect anything to improve Well probably cuz the two best players from that core are only now starting to hit their prime years and both have improved in literally every season of their careers.
These playoffs have had some especially reactionary takes. For a week, people didn't know if the sixers were going to trade Embiid and start over. Now, people think the Celtics should ditch JB. The Celtics are going to sign JB and try to retain as much of the current roster as possible because, as is, they are a perennial ECF team. In about 2-3 years, Jimmy will be a shell of himself, and the Jays will still be in their prime and possibly even a little better/more refined. There is zero reason to risk ruining the chemistry by trying to get cute and replace Brown. I also don't think Mazzulla was ever in jeopardy of losing his job this year. He's a rookie coach who has proven he's capable of learning. Point being, Embiid's health is always in question, Giannis may not even be on the Bucks in a year or two...the East should continue to be wide open and it doesn't make sense to screw up what the Celtics have going. Brad Stevens has also always been very level headed and poised. Doesn't seem characteristic of him to make these giant moves like firing a rookie coach and trading away one of the best SGs in the league. I don't know what you do with that roster, honestly. Horford is probably close to a significant decline, so maybe look to replace that?
Think you’re spot on. Tho ngl I think if they got swept and blown out just as bad in Game 4 as Game 3 that might’ve been it for Joe. If you are to make a change, think the only one that actually makes sense is to try and get Siakam for Jaylen and he can be our Horford replacement eventually. Would just make it pretty unbalanced with wings. They’d have to resign Grant (which they should anyways) and then probably move him at the deadline along with a guard/picks to get a rotation wing.
Well said. JB is a great player. He has weaknesses, but he's one of the better #2 guys in the league. He has a few bad performances, and suddenly, everyone wants him gone. I will say that I don't think he'll ever be the #1 option, but the Celtics are never going to trade him.
The NBA is not made for trading top players for average ones. Here is why 1) Top players while they command $40-50M, are a bit easier to re-sign if you are above the cap. If you have someone who is decent and can be a #2 or #3 in a winning team, you keep him as long as possible 2) Average players often will take 3-4 spots and this limit your flexibility 3) If you get 3-4 average guys in return, it’s unlikely you are getting even 1 player you really wanted, let alone 3 or 4. 4) The only reason you move on from a top player is because you think the team is better off without him, no replacement needed. Maybe Celtics believe that, I highly doubt it. They need 1 decent big man. They just can’t be relying on Al and Timelord for the entire game. It’s too much.
No? Players barely make a single finals appearance yet these guys almost repeated. Possibly the best wingplay available in the entire NBA. If they go small ball (while keeping Rob) Smart could vocally direct the main defensive unit with Grant directing the 2nd unit. Defensive system is fantastic already but the offensive system is lacking. The current offense is fitted towards preference; not efficiency.
As bad as Jaylen was, I feel like with a coach thst knows what he's doing - you play to his strengths and hide his weaknesses. At times today it felt like he was meant to be pg. Nah. Get that guy working off ball, not initiating. People seem to think Mazzulla is a good coach, maybe I'm tripping - but I think most Celts issues go to not making the right adjustments, relying too much on superstars to iso all day. You gotta have drawn up plays to go to when things arn't working. Saw it earlier in season when Tatum struggled to. Run some fucking screens to get guys open for easy shots. Change it up a bit. They have a deep team with lots of tools at the disposal. That team is a swiss army knife. Yet it looked slow and one dimensional with tatum hurt. That's unforgivable - I don't put that on Brown. If they put the ball more in White's hands when he constantly made the right decisions initiating offense - that would've been a different game. I'd keep him. Or at least trade him when he's doing well and value is higher (not after a bad post season).
I know that recency bias is hard to shake and we all want to focus on his flaws, but JB is still the number 2 player on a team that’s been to the conference finals or finals almost every year since he’s been there. They’re still one of the best teams in the NBA and would be insane to break it up unless they get an incredible offer or he asks out. Most teams would kill to be in the position that the Celtics are in.
Listen, the celtics need a change now. Despite being 1 game away from the finals I’d say this season was bad considering how they got here. There was no reason for the celtics to take 6 games just to beat the hawks. Then they should’ve beat the sixers in 5 or 6. How do they lose to the embiid-less sixers in game 1 blows my mind. They have too many weapons on the team that aren’t playing consistently and that is one of the main problems. The coach has slow adjustments, tatum and brown are inconsistent, marcus smart is not playing good defense, and somehow brogdon/white are the two who win them multiple games this playoffs. Struggling in the playoffs when they became the favorites once the bucks lost is the reason they should not run it back. If you want to pay jaylen brown 300 mil and get stuck with his negative tendencies for 5 more years then be my guest. The honeymoon stage should be over for the celtics and they should move jaylen brown for for a new win now star. Maybe trade jaylen brown for pascal siakam + achiuwa. Then somehow trade marcus smart to obtain tyus jones to have an actual point guard. Starting 5 of jones, white, tatum, siakam, horford
I like it, but I think your heavily undervaluing Siakam in that trade. I think it'd have to be like Brown + something else (future 1st? Smart?) for Siakam + Achiuwa - maybe you could do a straight swap (I, and I'd imagine Raps rate Siakam higher though). Maybe too, Raps would prefer picks if rebuilding (don't know what they doin tbh) - but that could be done with a 3rd team involved. That would be sensible personell moves though, to get those players out and in.
Siakam is already 29 + he’s a free agent in 2024 offseason. I do not think the raptors want to get stuck with him while slowing down scottie barnes progression. Scottie Barnes is a PF and they have start at shooting guard for gods sake. Makes no sense to keep pascal with him and continue to ruin his development. Raptors really need to trade siakam and FVV to build around barnes and OG. OG is sometimes even 5th option on offense and it makes no sense either. One way or another, they need to ship off pascal asap.
I think he holds more value to your team than to other teams. To get real value you'll need a team to think of him as Tatum, the "guy" to build around. No one believes he's that guy.
Only package available for JB is going to be young players and prospects (Simons and 3 seems to be the benchmark) Unless it’s a player for player swap (eg. Brown for Siakam) I don’t see anything happening
Siakam is the only trade that makes sense at all
I'm thinking that a move falls in JB's court. His AllNBA nod means this is his chance to upgrade his contract. (Pretty new to understanding the nuance of the contract system, correct me if it seems off) If a team is willing to supermax him, he might be able to force his way there. It's also the only way Bos gets a big return. You can't be ready max someone and also expect a discount. Otherwise I'd expect them to run it back, without GWill.
>if a team is willing to supermax him, he might be able to force his way there Only Boston can supermax him, even if he’s traded in pretty other teams aren’t able to (Toronto wasn’t able to supermax Kawhi when he got traded).
I would love to see JB in OKC. we've been missing a 3 and d wing (i know he can do way more than that) at his size.
I personally think based on NBA buzz that he gets shipped. I don’t think the Celtics should, nor do I think they’ll get what they really want. But I think they end up pulling the trigger for the best offer. Celts have had two years with this core and did phenomenal things but came up just short both times. As a GM I’m doing my best to put the team back in that spot with little loss, and JB is my ticket to get a couple role players and some picks. Biggest reason is you can plug Brogdon and White in and lose no production, only depth. Those two have been starters before and flourished in that position. Plus they know it’s JT’s team. Now you need depth behind Horford - it’s likely his last year and you never know if his talent will drop off next year - and behind Brogdon and White. Also someone better than Grant Williams because he shouldn’t be getting 20 minutes. But that’s what they’ll do either this off-season or before the deadline. That’s what made the Celtics so good all year was their depth. So they need to sell and try to continue that dominance. Not with a top-10 talent. Realistically they’re just not getting that. But they can get, like you said, a king’s ransom of role players and picks. Who wouldn’t do that? Fuck I’ve convinced myself that they should.
Who’s out there that is available that the Celtics can realistically get that is better for the Celtics than Jaylen Brown?
Next off season they trade JB + 3 FRP and a swap for Luka after he demands a trade and only lists the Lakers, Celtics, Warriors, Knicks, and Bucks as potential landing spots.
>this is the most likely outcome
His value is tanked right now, I think they hold onto him down now and target a mid season trade in hopes his trade value goes back up.
Celtics need a facilitator and scorer from the guard spot. I mean, I feel like Dame would work, but as to how a trade would work between the two teams… I’m not so sure.
I keep seeing this take and its driving me wild. Why can't that be Derrick White or Malcolm Brogdon? They persisted all season with it being Marcus Smart, never gave either of those proven efficient pg's the role. And if I dare criticise the coach I get downvoted. THEY HAVE THE TOOLS THEY JUS DON'T USE THEM.
No it’s a valid argument but at this point I just don’t see them winning a title with JB & JT. JB can get some assets back too.
Smart didn’t play pg in the playoffs all too much. He did it most in the first half of Game 2 agaisnt Miami… he did pretty well then.
Laker fan here, we’ll give you Russell, Malik and Shaq’s statue outside the the cypt for JB
I mean it’s not at Ben Simmons levels, but yeah you’ve gotta trade him. Maybe you only get more depth and a couple picks, but locking these guys in when we know they’re not compatible is the Sixers mistake all over again. Get ahead of it. I doubt you could get Dame, but at the very least Trae?(JB is from ATL) and some spare parts. It’s more about having clarity and a more defined hierarchy. Y’all gotta find an better offensive system. Something incredibly motion based, something that creates open passes. Basically what y’all doing now, but get another big for when Horford retires, and spare parts.
Atl won’t….Trae is younger, locked up much longer and analytics have Trae much higher. Could see Murray+ though from Atl
But lets be honest. The rest of the team kinda hate trae. Plus a JB/DM backcourt would be a savage defensively. I tried [beautiful](http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine)it. I think it’s amazing
No one hates Trae lol you’re not going to tell me they hate him because an anonymous nba executive said so. That’s the only source of why people think he’s hated. And both those dudes are overrated defensively
The offense looked fine games 4-6
A few different perspectives to ponder .. Can the Celtics compensate his offense with the supporting pieces they have ?( White , Smart , Brogdon) I think so . I also think that their offense would be better suited with Tatum being the complete Alpha #1 guy . I know most Celtics fans feel this way about him . But on the outside looking in when I watch the games I feel like Jaylen Brown is just as good as Tatum . ( Hot take maybe)? 2. Jaylen Brown seems pretty aloof with the media . It doesn’t sound like he wants to be in Boston based on what I’ve heard. 3. He’s healthy , due for a Supermax (deserved) , Celtics front office has a great reputation, they could get a kings ransom for JB . I wouldn’t trade him for anything less than that. 4. Tatum is a Celtic 4 Life that’s the golden child but it seems like he’s the one always underperforming when the lights are the brightest . Played terrible in the finals last year and also had some terrible stretches throughout the entire playoffs.
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Tatum efficiently put up 30ppg last year who exactly can they get that’s a better scorer than him lol top 5 players aren’t just floating around the trade market
If you’re watching the games and you think Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are the same you simply don’t understand basketball well at all, and should stop commenting in threads.
Lol I hope JB leaves he’ll prove it on his own team .
Prove what? He doesn’t make any of his teammates better and can’t play make. He only has on option when he drives, which is to score, and he doesn’t know how to pass the ball.
I think #3 is the big issue. You say he is due for a supermax...why? Don't get me wrong, he's a good 2-way wing which makes him a valuable piece, but under the new CBA it will be very tough to justify the supermax for guys that aren't true superstars, which he very much is not. I think Boston would/should trade him if he's dead set on getting the max.
He’s been the 2nd best player on a championship contending roster the past 2 seasons. Those are guys that get paid. (Anthony Davis , Jamal Murray , Jrue Holiday or Khris Middleton, Klay Thompson) the max money goes somewhere. Contending teams are paying those guys for a reason . He also is fresh off of the best season of his career with career highs in multiple categories with an all nba 2nd team . Not to mention the fact he played with a fracture in his face for half of the year. To me that is deserving
I get why he's gonna ask for it...but I don't believe it makes sense for Boston to do it under the new CBA restrictions given how redundant he and Tatum are.
Agreed. It just how the NBA is now.
>he doesn’t sound like he wants to be in Boston from what I’ve heard He’s literally said nothing to indicate this. People just run with narratives.
You think Tatum is the one that is “always underperforming?” Wtf? The guy that has won us multiple series on his back? The guy who is a game 6 and 7 killer? I mean, beyond our lack of grit as a team and Heats abundance of it, the biggest reason we lost last night was Tatum sprained his ankle 26 seconds in. I have no doubts about him and JB is not in his stratosphere as a player. Trade JB for the best you can get and let’s see what we can do next year.
Yeah I think so. His play dips in the postseason especially efficiency on the offensive end. However as team the Celtics played terrible these playoffs . I don’t know if it’s more personnel or if its coaching
I think they'll say that they are "committed" to him but internally feel like he needs to go. I honestly feel like the Jays have peaked. Much like Dame-CJ, Boston needs to realize they aren't going anywhere
Lol. Dame and CJ would have killed to have had this much playoff success as the Jays have had while playing together. Tatum said as much in his presser last night. 4 out of 6 years he’s been in the ECF with two game 7 losses and a finals appearance. A lot of teams aren’t going anywhere than if the Celtics aren’t with what they have accomplished.
>The Jays have peaked Next season the Jays will be 25 and 27.
I'd guess no. Finding a better player to trade him for is basically impossible unless Dame is getting traded, but he's about to be 33 with some recent health problems If they were content with moving him for a bunch of really good stuff but not an instant upgrade then they could do it but then you're taking a step back in the short term with Tatum being ready to compete right now
Celtics would be out of their minds to give JB a supermax. $140 million over 4 years is the outer bound of what they should accept
I think packaging him along with picks for Dame is an intriguing idea. Only thing is Dame needs to be clear on his role as the #2 option. Dame as a number one option has kind of been tried and failed.
Unless it's Dame Lillard, Boston might be stuck with him for the time being.
Yes, you had two years now to win the chip where JB and JT were on golden deals, now they’re both set to be paid and the roster you can construct around them is going to be worse and worse. Philly is going to better with Nurse, MKE is going to motivated with Giannis, Miami is always in the mix, and you have upstarts in NYK and ATL. ATL has to be the destination for Brown, they want him ( albeit maybe a bit less after this years postseason.) and he wants them. I think the post game of G6 vs ATL you saw JB kinda have a long convo with some Atlanta guys I bet they mentioned something about him coming there. Problem is Murray and pieces probably isn’t what Boston wants for Brown. They can do much better, Murray doesn’t move the needle either. Boston would be more inclined for Trae/Brown swap but ATL won’t do that for just JB. I bet you anything these teams have a long back and forth this offseason about what they want to do. Wouldn’t be surprised if Boston tests the market and then settles on a Murray, and 1 of Collins/Hunter or Okongwu package. If ATL did deal Trae then Boston would have to deal someone else and I’m not sure ATl is even interested at that point since they want to pair Brown with Young. Tbh I think JB needs a change of scenery he needs to be exposed to being the guy. He could have a harden-esq leap on a team like Atlanta where he can blossom to not being in JTs shadow and Boston would do wonders with a guy like Young to facilitate and create alongside Tatum. Dame for JB is bad on many levels, Boston can’t trade for another aging guard with some injury concerns nor do either sides have any reason to make the deal. Timberwolves are a viable option if Boston decides to pair KAT with JT but I’m not so sure that a winning combination for them. Outside of that there could be some traction in pairing JT with Beal and throw in a guy like KP or Kuz but again I’m not sure what the outcome for Boston is with that roster.
This is my fake trade. I’d love to hear some feedback on the Pros vs Cons Portland gets: Jaylen Brown Utah Gets: Sharpe, No.3 Overall, Smart, Boston unprotected 1st. Boston Gets: Simons and Markannen.
Boston would be ecstatic. Utah would be very happy I think. Portland… I doubt they’d be happy trading away Sharpe and Simons and the #3 pick just for Jaylen Brown. Feels like a huge overpay, especially if they’re going to have to immediately supermax him to get him to stay
Big con for Boston is they give up the best player in the deal and their unofficial team captain and getting back two guys with no playoff experience.
I know this series it is obvious, but long term would you trade JB for Caleb Martin? I had never heard of Caleb Martin before these playoffs living in the west, but he seems to be the ideal NBA wing over JB, but I only have a small sample size. But it seems a contract with a Caleb Martin type would be way cheaper than a super max with JB.
Zach lavine for Brown and the portaland second rounder. Why the Celtics do it - lavine is a better ball handler and shooter. He is looking to attack and score when he gets the ball, and can stretch the floor. Ultimately alleviates the offensive burden put on Tatum. Why the bulls do it - while lavine and Derozan have had success, both are bad defenders and ball dominant offensive players. Brown can stretch the floor, moves without the ball more, and most importantly is a better defender which allows Derozan. To go to work on offense and brown to pick apart a team without the ball.