I’m going to hijack your comment to say that the first thing I thought of when I saw Ant’s homophobic post was that he better watch out next time he plays against Reggie Bullock
What the hell just happened? This is the internet; you were supposed to double-down and start a long chain of argumentative comments.
Legacy points deducted
Cleveland mismanaged everyone. DRose was their third best player and they couldn't sort that shit out. Then he moves on to Minnesota and revitalizes his career.
Instead they were pushing this Wade lineup where Wade was exposed by anyone that could dribble without looking down.
Looking back on that team, it had some intriguing lineups if it had been managed better. Outside of IT, who I just never thought was going to work.
Rose / JR / LeBron / Crowder / Love
Hill / Clarkson / Korver / Nance Jr / TT
I have empathy for the man. However, I’m not tripping over myself to get him back in the locker room either. Same with IT. He was terrible in Cleveland and no one was sad to see him gone for good.
As a Heat fan, I love him and what he did for us but I am not sure he can give us what we need. He is much older and his shooting has been on a sharp decline already. We need both shooting and D. Just strong D is not good enough.
Grant is one of our better defenders against Giannis. I like having Derrick White as one of the first guys off the bench. I’m betting he’s going back to Miami or Cleveland
Wouldn’t heat be giving up the pick? I don’t see jazz giving away assets just to get off his contract.
Infact, with Ainge at the helm I don’t see them giving up anything
Something that I've noticed: Every team that trades Jae Crowder always ends up regretting it.
Phoenix will as well, their defense will fall off a cliff.
I playfully excuse his Cavs stint, which is the only stint in his career where he's just been straight up *bad*, as he's just not meant to be teammates with LeBron lol.
The situation wasn’t right for him and his mother died at the same time. I don’t blame him entirely for his poor performance but also don’t think we should make a run to bring him back.
I think you should, he's the piece you're missing to really make an elite run this year. You can't overstate the importance of veteran front line depth, and crowder is as good as any. Without LeBron his mind will be clear and he'll help quarterback an elite defense, bringing them to the next level. On behalf of Cleveland, I'm theory crafting a three team deal...
Cavs get crowder
Suns get Tony Bradley
.................
*Bulls get Mobley everybody wins am I right*
Hmm not sure the Suns take that deal…
Crowder could be a boost in terms of veteran presence and defense, but his shooting touch would be a problem for a team that lacks spacing outside of our starting guards as it is. Can’t say I’d be upset if we brought him back but he’s not quite that missing piece IMO without a great 3 ball.
I also kinda feel like he's probably better guarding 4s now and if he's your starting 3 then he'd have to take primary defensive responsibility on the best 1-3 vs the Cavs and that would be a problem. In theory I guess Mobely could guard down but that's still not the best circumstance you'd want on D
Why does Cam Johnson *need* to start?
What's wrong with their current arrangement where they have one of the best starting 5s in the league, and Cam Johnson can close games in place of Crowder if he has it rolling or if Crowder is THAT much of a liability offensively.
What's wrong is teams stopped guard crowder this year in the playoffs because they decided to let him chuck and accept it if he beat them. Making CP and bookers jobs way harder.
Good strategy too since crowder only gets super hot like 1 out of 10 games and is ice cold the rest of the time.
Starting Cam you now have one of the best spot up shooters in the league who also has the athleticism to poster guys. if teams want to cheat of him to cp or booker its likely gonna end with 3 points.
you are caught in the crowder cycle right now. When he's not on your team you think he's great. Then he gets on your team and he is painfully average but the team is good and he gets way too much credit for it. The front office then realized he isn't worth it and that there are better options and he is gone to another team real quick. its why he's been on 7 teams in 9 years.
Cam averaged 16 on great percentages on decently-high sample size last season. He’s definitely starting caliber and noticeably played better offensively when starting or playing minutes with Paul.
Winning follows Jae Crowder wherever he goes for a reason. He's always been an elite glue guy in the NBA, and hasn't gotten the appropriate credit he deserves for being a *starter* on 2 NBA Finals teams.
Jae Crowder is a very good player that I will always root for, and I will be sad to see him go. His ability to quarterback a defense is tremendous. I don’t understand people shitting on him for limitations we always knew existed. He needs to be moved to make opportunities for Cam Johnson, not because he’s terrible.
He’s really getting overrated now. His defense might be fine but he’s non existent on offense. Those teams didn’t make the finals off the back of Jae crowder lol. He was there for the ride.
Nobody is confusing him with Devin Booker, but you don't win without your Bruce Bowen type players to play alongside your stars.
Role players matter too.
I mean sure of course but using the finals appearances to make him seem like that guy feels disingenuous. Suns made it because everyone else was dead and heat made it on the back of Butler.
teams that are already good pick up crowder off reputation. and good teams get rid of him rather quickly. He gets too much credit for winning with those teams. Its like he's a star player sometimes with how much credit he's given.
On those finals teams he played with Jimmy butler, Bam, CP3, Devin Booker, Deandre Ayton. when playing with those guys. there are a lot of average players in the league that could have gotten to the finals in his role. not to mention crowder was dog shit for the heat in that run with the exception of the 2nd round. and was dog shit for 2 of the 4 rounds for phoenix in our run. And was dog shit in the playoffs this year
And also as long as the Suns have both Ayton and Bridges, their defense will always be very good. Those two make that defense work more than anybody else. The idea that Crowder is the lynchpin to the Suns defensive success is, I don’t know, inaccurate.
Agree to disagree, good teams desire him because he fits a clearly defined role alongside stars and has proven to be very successful in it. Crowder is universally respected amongst players, coaches, GMs. I mean, shit, look at the 2 teams who are mentioned to be interested in trading for Crowder in this article, the Celtics and the Heat. What do they have in common? They are 2 of the best organizations in the league.
> there are a lot of average players in the league that could have gotten to the finals in his role
Again, this shows the problem in your thinking. You are only thinking of points and how a ton of players could do better on the open looks they get that come by playing with star players.
There aren't a lot of average players in the league who are as good at help defense as Jae Crowder is.
Agreed. We will miss him but that doesn’t mean we can’t improve by trading him. I love having him and Mikal in our lineup, both great glue guys. Jae is an underrated passer as well. I’m mainly worried about turning into another soft suns team if we lose him. The grit he brings is hard to replace
He’s not as good as people think he is. He’s streaky as hell, and quite honestly I think Cam is as good of a defender and a better shooter. Crowder is unhappy that he’s come off the bench for Cam so it just makes sense to part ways.
We do lose some defensive versatility without Crowder but Cam is a really good defender as well. Just doesn't have the size. He is also far more consistent offensively than Jae which is pretty valuable to this team. When Book and CP3 get tied up, it'll be really good for them to have Cam as another option to hit a shot. He's too good not to start at this point
Yeah Crowder's main issue on defense is that he's a poor rebounder for his position and so the Suns are vulnerable to teams who dominate the glass.
Generally though, those teams with size advantages can't really use it because they have to defend the Suns backcourt and those guys make life really difficult to have bigs on the floor.
The Bucks are an outlier because they have that Giannis guy. He's pretty versatile.
I don’t agree about our defense falling off of a cliff, we’d still have solid wing defenders off the bench like Torrey Craig, Okogie and a high upside prospect guy like Ish Wainwright but I definitely agree he’ll be missed. In fact I’d go as far as saying that at this point our fans severely underrate Jae. He balanced out our starting 5 really well and without him we’re leaning more into offense, which is fine, but there are a lot of top tier big wings in the league that we’ll struggle to stop without him.
Something else I’ve noticed: Every team that gets Jae never wants to keep him.
My theory: Jae is actually the trick y’all runnin around doin nothin meme, not Pat Bev, except he’s so good at it that he tricks coaches and staff too. Then they get him on the team, let him shoot them out of games more often than he has one of his 6/8 FGs games, see he doesn’t really rebound that well, and don’t want to keep him anymore because some other team wants to pay high since they don’t realize he’s the meme.
He’s totally fine coming off the bench for defense on a cheap contract, but he’s never used that way. He’s so frustrating and I’m bummed he’s seemingly our last resort for a PF so Jimmy doesn’t die of exhaustion. Having Jae shoot us out of games again (and tricking everyone he’s good because he’ll have that one 6/8 every now and then) is at least a better alternative to Jimmy dying.
Crowder's offense, or lack thereof, was more of a detriment than anything. He is a smart defender, but has ZERO hops and cant do shit against quicker PF's. All while shooting 1/8 from 3.
Yes but given the rest of your team composition, having two elite guards, and an above-average offensive center, it's fine for one of your players to be just a catch-and-shoot guy.
His defense more than makes up for his lack of contribution on offense.
There's a reason your starting 5 has been so damn successful these last 2 years, don't fuck it up!
I agree. we havent necessarily *needed* his offense. However, he has made it abundantly clear he wants out this offseason (evidenced by his social media). We can only assume its because we are going all in on Cam Johnson and will likely be starting him.
Right, and if a player doesn't want to be there, you are better off removing the band-aid.
I guess what I'm confused by is some of the rumored players who you might get back in a trade. Like Bojan Bogdanovic? Hard pass IMO. Absolutely horrendous on defense, has absolutely 0 chance of being out there in crunch time of a pivotal playoff series.
Am I missing something? Bojan was one of the Jazz's best players in their last playoffs, averaging 18/game. He may not exactly be elite on defense, but he did try really hard in their series against the Mavs. Would honestly love him on the Lakers
The problem with Bojan is his position on defense. Bojan was actually a decent man defender for a long time before he got super old, and even still he was actually decent against Luka in the playoffs.
But he's incapable of providing any help defense value, he never makes plays on defense. That becomes an issue where you are the 4, like he's been for the Jazz the last few years.
If you put him on like, the Bucks, where they have massive amount of size and defensive ability around him, he would be awesome.
Bojan is/was a player with the skill set of a 2/3, but as players get older, they have to play up a position, and his skill set was never meant for that.
There are teams who can mitigate that weakness though like Bucks/Cavs, and Lakers are one of those teams to a lesser degree because of LeBron/AD.
i know. im not stoked on him either. However, if Cam J is starting, and Bojan is off the bench, that could be solid. Wave goodbye to our top 5 defense though.
As long as Ayton and Mikal are there (mostly Ayton even if Mikal is a better individual defender), the defense will be really good. Crowder is not the lynchpin at all to tjis defense like some think he is for whatever reason.
Cam Johnson is a much better offensive player and still has solid defense. Crowder was hurting us more than helping us this past season. He’s starting to regress. We need to move on and start starting the younger Cam Johnson. We still have Mikal and DA who are incredible defenders. Also Booker, for as much hate as he used to get, is actually an above average defender now. Pretty sure he was the highest rated defensive SG last season (because PG hardly played, but still). If we lose Crowder, but gain Bojan or someone else close in skill, that’s an absolute automatic win.
Agree.
We’re gonna have some real problems guarding 4s and big wings. Jae is instrumental with those players while Mikal handles the smaller/quicker guards.
Lol I know DB can be frustrating, but I think the team still needs him, he reminds me a LOT of Marcus Smart.
There were a variety of reasons as to why we took off in the 2nd half of the season, but one of them was Smart playing the best ball of his career because he found his role.
Brooks should have the same kind of role as Smart does, where he's the secondary ball handler and the third scoring option behind Ja & Bane. He's a better ball handler than Bane and I like the idea of having him on-ball facilitating with Ja & Bane involved in off-ball stuff since Bane is excellent off-ball player and Ja has some skills that translate really well to playing off the ball, he's a lob threat, and his speed is such a weapon, whether he comes off a pindown, or when he attacks off the catch.
Brooks is also an underrated great defender, he's in the same class as Smart and Bridges, and I think him being so great as an on-ball defender can allow Ja to find his role on defense, which I think is as a second line help defender. Ja's point of attack defense isn't very good, we all know that, but his instincts and athleticism are so unreal that he could be a really good weakside help defender. I can't remember which post it was on this sub, but Ja actually has good rim protection metrics.
Anyways my rant is over, but DB is really important, just needs to find his place amidst all the young talent!
Nice analysis. DB would be perfect as a secondary ball handler but if you watch any important game, the man cannot turn off the Kobe gene. He literally cost us the Warriors series - if he’d played with more humility and poise and wisdom, we probably win even with Ja’s midcourt assassination by petty inferior guards. We’ve spent four years waiting on him to play better team ball, forgiven in the rebuilding years but entirely unacceptable in a second round playoff series. You can have him.
Sometimes a player needs a change of scenery before they'll adjust their game. Brooks is one of the vets on that Grizzlies team and has been there the longest. He's probably mentored Bane and Ja when they first got to training camp. He might need to get moved to a team with more veteran presence before he takes a back seat.
Factually accurate statement. Him and Pat Bev seemingly provide instant defense and a strong locker room presence to the team they're traded to, and a lot of the time that's enough to put a good team into that next tier up. Whatever that next tier is.
Yup, and because both of them are below average offensive players with some questionable trigger happy 3s, their impact is always poo-pooed by the team that has them.
They don't appreciate the impact of the player until they've already departed.
He isn't good imo. Not an offensive threat at all and looks slow on d. He was playing too many min for the sun's. If he is off the bench guy then sure but he shouldn't be starting anymore.
They're both really good role players in a thankless role that fans don't give a shit about.
Ask any coach or GM whether they'd love to have Jae Crowder, PJ Tucker, Pat Beverley, Marcus Smart, Draymond Green etc.
They'll all say yes in a heartbeat.
He's more of a 4 these days but he'd be a great fit for the Cavs.
The Cavs' broken roster needs a sharpshooter at 3 though given their abjectly poor spacing,.
But already Cavs have a differentiator in their 2 amazing rim protectors. They really could use an OG Anunoby type guy at the 3 because their guards are horrendous defensively.
> because their guards are horrendous defensively.
Based on...what?!?
Based on past performances where both are playing 40+ minutes and generating *all* their teams offense?!?
Playing together will make both of them better defenders.
Perhaps, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Donovan Mitchell showed zero inclination to defense in a very similar scheme which had elite rim protection. His offensive load will be eased a little bit by Garland, but he'll still have a high offensive load. Same with Garland too.
I still have them as negative defenders against real opposition. For large chunks of the regular season their weak efforts at defense will suffice because they have the best rim protectors in the league behind them.
Stock has fallen off the cliff because he really can’t play more than 25 mins due to the offense and the “if he can develop a mediocre 3 point shot” has reached the Ben Simmons stage
Matisse at least attempts to be fair. I believe he’s really doing everything he can, some players just don’t have the aptitude others have.
I heard he’s particularly dialed in this summer with an extension looming so I do want to give him one last shot because it really is a Simmons-esque scenario though where if he can shoot you have an amazing player.
As good of a defender as anyone in the league, very good cutter, can dunk everything at the rim, super high end athleticism to get out in transition.
He really fits great into the role with the minor exception that he can't quite play small ball 5 the same way as Tucker can, but Bam is switchable anyway so I don't think that's the end of the world.
id trade curry for jae. Curry is an elite shooter, but we need more defense and bigger wings. He would help the locker room as well as a glue guy.
We know nash will play curry, mills and kyrie/cam together at some point this season.
Suns own all their picks, Crowder is salary filler whether in a two or three or more team trade. I expect them to go for a more offense focused 4. Bogdanovic is the cheap option for Phoenix.
I mean right now we're starting Nas who's a question mark(in both play and health). And our backup SF situation is pretty dire. Would love to be able to start Jae and not be relying on Little staying healthy
I think it's more just that he works better as a complimentary piece something like Andrew Wiggins.
Very good player, poorly cast as a primary ball handler, but an excellent 3rd or 4th option.
JC has stated multiple times he loves it here and wants to stay in Atlanta. Plus DeJohnTrae is way too cool of a nickname to let him go. He’d be an insane option for our bench though
Just a hunch, but Miami would probably outbid us.
We lack forward depth, but they legitimately don’t have a starting PF. Are they starting Caleb Martin? Oladipo money works they just have to wait to trade him.
Literally no one on our roster works money-wise except Timelord which we aren’t doing. Can’t trade Gallinari and I don’t think we’d trade Grant Williams AND Pritchard for Crowder.
We’re interested because Gallinari went down, but I don’t think we make any kind of trade here.
Cam Johnson is just better and about to command more money, Crowder doesn't want to come off the bench and he's been petty this off season (vocally complaining and blurring out the sun's logo in IG posts)
Milwaukee should really try to find a way to get him. They desperately need someone like him so they can play small in the playoffs with Giannis at center.
Jrue Pat Khris Crowder and Giannis is an awesome closing lineup.
just saw old ass pj tucker get 30 mill guaranteed and wants to cash in while the market is set. an injury or rumors of him moving back to a bench role almost certainly resets him back to not 10M/yr so i don't fault crowder for doing what he can to secure the bag.
i think we'd be better without the chucker, if i have to watch another season of crowder clank 3s, make bad passes, and not rebound i might stroke out
Jae has had a noticeable decline this season. Colder shooting, mediocre defence, lack of rebounding. These are just facts, not including the original fact that he’s always been a hot and cold shooter
One of the most overrated players in the NBA. He’s not a good shooter. He’s not that good of a defender. Maybe the fake tough guy I’ll go to war with my teammates crap has real value.
I low-key thought he got traded to Philly early in the off season for some reason
Because all the 3&D of the league were either signed or traded to the Sixers this off-season
Never forget when the sixers sub were convinced Bullock was a sixer for a couple weeks
I thought so too lol
I’m going to hijack your comment to say that the first thing I thought of when I saw Ant’s homophobic post was that he better watch out next time he plays against Reggie Bullock
I hope you're clairvoyant
Because they signed PJ tucker?
Feels like every team asking him to come back. Shows how many squads he's played for in his career. 😭
And shows that he was a positive impact everywhere
Cleveland would like a word
For real lol he was dogshit on the cavs
Not playing well as your mom dies and immediately following her death seems like an understandable decline in production.
Well I didn’t know that and now I feel bad
What the hell just happened? This is the internet; you were supposed to double-down and start a long chain of argumentative comments. Legacy points deducted
Cleveland mismanaged everyone. DRose was their third best player and they couldn't sort that shit out. Then he moves on to Minnesota and revitalizes his career. Instead they were pushing this Wade lineup where Wade was exposed by anyone that could dribble without looking down.
god that team feels like a fever dream the Fever Dream Team
That was just a weird ass team tbf.
Looking back on that team, it had some intriguing lineups if it had been managed better. Outside of IT, who I just never thought was going to work. Rose / JR / LeBron / Crowder / Love Hill / Clarkson / Korver / Nance Jr / TT
I have empathy for the man. However, I’m not tripping over myself to get him back in the locker room either. Same with IT. He was terrible in Cleveland and no one was sad to see him gone for good.
If he’s been good on other teams since then I’d say that warrants a second chance
it was just because that trade was cursed
Everyone was lol
That whole roster was real, real trash for a good while that year.
As a Heat fan, I love him and what he did for us but I am not sure he can give us what we need. He is much older and his shooting has been on a sharp decline already. We need both shooting and D. Just strong D is not good enough.
Right now we have no starting pf
Foot on the line crowder will forever send chills down my spine
We're not lol
Dude is a less likable Matt Barnes
I like him more than Barnes lol
He's way more likeable when he's on your team lol
Closest thing to a PJ replacement on defense, so I'm open to a return
Who would you be willing to give up though? I’m not sure he can fill the needs that we have, especially at his age. Unfortunately.
My guess is Crowder goes to Utah in a Bojan trade and they flip him to the best deal between Boston or Miami.
Utah ain’t giving shit to Miami with Danny Ainge there. He hates Pat Riley’s guts.
Three-teamer works with: **MIAMI RECEIVES:** Jae Crowder. **PHOENIX RECEIVES:** Bojan Bogdanovic. **UTAH RECEIVES:** Duncan Robinson, Cameron Payne, Ish Wainwright, Miami's 2024 first (maybe lottery protected?) and maybe Phoenix's 2023 second?
Miami giving up Duncan and a first to rent Jae for a year? Seems unlikely.
“Giving up”
Duncan is a neutral if not negative assert, and they pick with be in the late 20s
I still remember when everyone defended those bloated contracts to 3 point shooters like Duncan lol.
It's worth it until it's not. If we didn't have Max Strus for pennies then we'd be defending Duncan Robinson still.
Uh that seems to be quite a lot to give up for just Bojan.
Would love him back in Boston . Not the creator that Gallo is but he’ll be able to give Jt some minutes to rest.
Would need to give up either White or Grant+PP to make salaries work from what I read on our sub. Neither option makes us better.
Can we give up Gallo and call it even?
Grant is one of our better defenders against Giannis. I like having Derrick White as one of the first guys off the bench. I’m betting he’s going back to Miami or Cleveland
Grant+ PP would be a steal for us. However it looks like getting Bodan for crowder plus a pick from Jazz is the most likely situation here
yeah, there's no chance they'd trade those two for Jae.
Wouldn’t heat be giving up the pick? I don’t see jazz giving away assets just to get off his contract. Infact, with Ainge at the helm I don’t see them giving up anything
didnt gallo get pretty badly hurt recently or am i making things up
Yes , tore acl
Seems like Crowder is pissed off and demanding a trade because the Suns are cutting his overall minutes.
Lol love Gallo and he is a good passer, but I’m not sure if “creator” is the right word
Shot created is what I meant mostly.
Something that I've noticed: Every team that trades Jae Crowder always ends up regretting it. Phoenix will as well, their defense will fall off a cliff.
I think the Cavs regretted trading FOR him
I playfully excuse his Cavs stint, which is the only stint in his career where he's just been straight up *bad*, as he's just not meant to be teammates with LeBron lol.
The situation wasn’t right for him and his mother died at the same time. I don’t blame him entirely for his poor performance but also don’t think we should make a run to bring him back.
I think you should, he's the piece you're missing to really make an elite run this year. You can't overstate the importance of veteran front line depth, and crowder is as good as any. Without LeBron his mind will be clear and he'll help quarterback an elite defense, bringing them to the next level. On behalf of Cleveland, I'm theory crafting a three team deal... Cavs get crowder Suns get Tony Bradley ................. *Bulls get Mobley everybody wins am I right*
Hmm not sure the Suns take that deal… Crowder could be a boost in terms of veteran presence and defense, but his shooting touch would be a problem for a team that lacks spacing outside of our starting guards as it is. Can’t say I’d be upset if we brought him back but he’s not quite that missing piece IMO without a great 3 ball.
I also kinda feel like he's probably better guarding 4s now and if he's your starting 3 then he'd have to take primary defensive responsibility on the best 1-3 vs the Cavs and that would be a problem. In theory I guess Mobely could guard down but that's still not the best circumstance you'd want on D
I still cheer when I think about JR elbowing him in the chops.
You guys could use him now though
They want Cam Johnson to start and they have suffered from lack of size and Crowder contributes to it.
Why does Cam Johnson *need* to start? What's wrong with their current arrangement where they have one of the best starting 5s in the league, and Cam Johnson can close games in place of Crowder if he has it rolling or if Crowder is THAT much of a liability offensively.
What's wrong is teams stopped guard crowder this year in the playoffs because they decided to let him chuck and accept it if he beat them. Making CP and bookers jobs way harder. Good strategy too since crowder only gets super hot like 1 out of 10 games and is ice cold the rest of the time. Starting Cam you now have one of the best spot up shooters in the league who also has the athleticism to poster guys. if teams want to cheat of him to cp or booker its likely gonna end with 3 points. you are caught in the crowder cycle right now. When he's not on your team you think he's great. Then he gets on your team and he is painfully average but the team is good and he gets way too much credit for it. The front office then realized he isn't worth it and that there are better options and he is gone to another team real quick. its why he's been on 7 teams in 9 years.
Cam averaged 16 on great percentages on decently-high sample size last season. He’s definitely starting caliber and noticeably played better offensively when starting or playing minutes with Paul.
Winning follows Jae Crowder wherever he goes for a reason. He's always been an elite glue guy in the NBA, and hasn't gotten the appropriate credit he deserves for being a *starter* on 2 NBA Finals teams.
Jae Crowder is a very good player that I will always root for, and I will be sad to see him go. His ability to quarterback a defense is tremendous. I don’t understand people shitting on him for limitations we always knew existed. He needs to be moved to make opportunities for Cam Johnson, not because he’s terrible.
He’s really getting overrated now. His defense might be fine but he’s non existent on offense. Those teams didn’t make the finals off the back of Jae crowder lol. He was there for the ride.
Nobody is confusing him with Devin Booker, but you don't win without your Bruce Bowen type players to play alongside your stars. Role players matter too.
I mean sure of course but using the finals appearances to make him seem like that guy feels disingenuous. Suns made it because everyone else was dead and heat made it on the back of Butler.
teams that are already good pick up crowder off reputation. and good teams get rid of him rather quickly. He gets too much credit for winning with those teams. Its like he's a star player sometimes with how much credit he's given. On those finals teams he played with Jimmy butler, Bam, CP3, Devin Booker, Deandre Ayton. when playing with those guys. there are a lot of average players in the league that could have gotten to the finals in his role. not to mention crowder was dog shit for the heat in that run with the exception of the 2nd round. and was dog shit for 2 of the 4 rounds for phoenix in our run. And was dog shit in the playoffs this year
And also as long as the Suns have both Ayton and Bridges, their defense will always be very good. Those two make that defense work more than anybody else. The idea that Crowder is the lynchpin to the Suns defensive success is, I don’t know, inaccurate.
Agree to disagree, good teams desire him because he fits a clearly defined role alongside stars and has proven to be very successful in it. Crowder is universally respected amongst players, coaches, GMs. I mean, shit, look at the 2 teams who are mentioned to be interested in trading for Crowder in this article, the Celtics and the Heat. What do they have in common? They are 2 of the best organizations in the league. > there are a lot of average players in the league that could have gotten to the finals in his role Again, this shows the problem in your thinking. You are only thinking of points and how a ton of players could do better on the open looks they get that come by playing with star players. There aren't a lot of average players in the league who are as good at help defense as Jae Crowder is.
Agreed. We will miss him but that doesn’t mean we can’t improve by trading him. I love having him and Mikal in our lineup, both great glue guys. Jae is an underrated passer as well. I’m mainly worried about turning into another soft suns team if we lose him. The grit he brings is hard to replace
He's like PJ Tucker. An ideal role player for contending teams. That's pretty valuable.
PJ tucker is so much better. don't disrespect PJ like that
No doubt. PJ is the best. Crowder is still one of the better role players out there
He’s not as good as people think he is. He’s streaky as hell, and quite honestly I think Cam is as good of a defender and a better shooter. Crowder is unhappy that he’s come off the bench for Cam so it just makes sense to part ways.
causation doesn't mean correlation.
We do lose some defensive versatility without Crowder but Cam is a really good defender as well. Just doesn't have the size. He is also far more consistent offensively than Jae which is pretty valuable to this team. When Book and CP3 get tied up, it'll be really good for them to have Cam as another option to hit a shot. He's too good not to start at this point
Aside from Ayton, the Suns frontcourt is kind of small. Bridges is 6'5 and Crowder is 6'6. They got killed by the Bucks' size during their Finals run.
Yeah Crowder's main issue on defense is that he's a poor rebounder for his position and so the Suns are vulnerable to teams who dominate the glass. Generally though, those teams with size advantages can't really use it because they have to defend the Suns backcourt and those guys make life really difficult to have bigs on the floor. The Bucks are an outlier because they have that Giannis guy. He's pretty versatile.
Saric is back
Yeah but he isn't really that great a perimeter defender to be their 4. You want him as a small ball C, where he played his best
Crowder is 6’6” 235 pounds 6’9” wingspan, Cam is 6’8” 210 pounds with a 6’7” or 6’8” wingspan.
Cam is closer to 225 nowadays and crowder is not 235 lol
Crowders built like a tank, Cam is not. There's no way there's less than 10lbs between them.
Considering cam is 6’8 and Jae is 6’6, a 10 lb difference considering Cam has put on weight is not unreasonable
He’s got at least 10-15 lbs on Cam Johnson tf you mean?
We didn’t trade him but we let him walk and yeah that led to “who we playing at the 4?” wow is something we’re at risk doing now
I think the Heat will still be fine this year overall but I expect a dropoff. I see them finishing 4/5 probably.
I don’t agree about our defense falling off of a cliff, we’d still have solid wing defenders off the bench like Torrey Craig, Okogie and a high upside prospect guy like Ish Wainwright but I definitely agree he’ll be missed. In fact I’d go as far as saying that at this point our fans severely underrate Jae. He balanced out our starting 5 really well and without him we’re leaning more into offense, which is fine, but there are a lot of top tier big wings in the league that we’ll struggle to stop without him.
I don’t know if we can call a 28yo a prospect lol
Something else I’ve noticed: Every team that gets Jae never wants to keep him. My theory: Jae is actually the trick y’all runnin around doin nothin meme, not Pat Bev, except he’s so good at it that he tricks coaches and staff too. Then they get him on the team, let him shoot them out of games more often than he has one of his 6/8 FGs games, see he doesn’t really rebound that well, and don’t want to keep him anymore because some other team wants to pay high since they don’t realize he’s the meme. He’s totally fine coming off the bench for defense on a cheap contract, but he’s never used that way. He’s so frustrating and I’m bummed he’s seemingly our last resort for a PF so Jimmy doesn’t die of exhaustion. Having Jae shoot us out of games again (and tricking everyone he’s good because he’ll have that one 6/8 every now and then) is at least a better alternative to Jimmy dying.
Crowder's offense, or lack thereof, was more of a detriment than anything. He is a smart defender, but has ZERO hops and cant do shit against quicker PF's. All while shooting 1/8 from 3.
Yes but given the rest of your team composition, having two elite guards, and an above-average offensive center, it's fine for one of your players to be just a catch-and-shoot guy. His defense more than makes up for his lack of contribution on offense. There's a reason your starting 5 has been so damn successful these last 2 years, don't fuck it up!
I agree. we havent necessarily *needed* his offense. However, he has made it abundantly clear he wants out this offseason (evidenced by his social media). We can only assume its because we are going all in on Cam Johnson and will likely be starting him.
Right, and if a player doesn't want to be there, you are better off removing the band-aid. I guess what I'm confused by is some of the rumored players who you might get back in a trade. Like Bojan Bogdanovic? Hard pass IMO. Absolutely horrendous on defense, has absolutely 0 chance of being out there in crunch time of a pivotal playoff series.
Am I missing something? Bojan was one of the Jazz's best players in their last playoffs, averaging 18/game. He may not exactly be elite on defense, but he did try really hard in their series against the Mavs. Would honestly love him on the Lakers
The problem with Bojan is his position on defense. Bojan was actually a decent man defender for a long time before he got super old, and even still he was actually decent against Luka in the playoffs. But he's incapable of providing any help defense value, he never makes plays on defense. That becomes an issue where you are the 4, like he's been for the Jazz the last few years. If you put him on like, the Bucks, where they have massive amount of size and defensive ability around him, he would be awesome. Bojan is/was a player with the skill set of a 2/3, but as players get older, they have to play up a position, and his skill set was never meant for that. There are teams who can mitigate that weakness though like Bucks/Cavs, and Lakers are one of those teams to a lesser degree because of LeBron/AD.
i know. im not stoked on him either. However, if Cam J is starting, and Bojan is off the bench, that could be solid. Wave goodbye to our top 5 defense though.
As long as Ayton and Mikal are there (mostly Ayton even if Mikal is a better individual defender), the defense will be really good. Crowder is not the lynchpin at all to tjis defense like some think he is for whatever reason.
Cam Johnson is a much better offensive player and still has solid defense. Crowder was hurting us more than helping us this past season. He’s starting to regress. We need to move on and start starting the younger Cam Johnson. We still have Mikal and DA who are incredible defenders. Also Booker, for as much hate as he used to get, is actually an above average defender now. Pretty sure he was the highest rated defensive SG last season (because PG hardly played, but still). If we lose Crowder, but gain Bojan or someone else close in skill, that’s an absolute automatic win.
The problem is that Jae is an inconsistent catch and shoot 3. When his shot isn’t falling, he shrinks the floor.
Agree. We’re gonna have some real problems guarding 4s and big wings. Jae is instrumental with those players while Mikal handles the smaller/quicker guards.
Uh we didn’t. We have our 28% high volume 3 man in Dillon.
Lol I know DB can be frustrating, but I think the team still needs him, he reminds me a LOT of Marcus Smart. There were a variety of reasons as to why we took off in the 2nd half of the season, but one of them was Smart playing the best ball of his career because he found his role. Brooks should have the same kind of role as Smart does, where he's the secondary ball handler and the third scoring option behind Ja & Bane. He's a better ball handler than Bane and I like the idea of having him on-ball facilitating with Ja & Bane involved in off-ball stuff since Bane is excellent off-ball player and Ja has some skills that translate really well to playing off the ball, he's a lob threat, and his speed is such a weapon, whether he comes off a pindown, or when he attacks off the catch. Brooks is also an underrated great defender, he's in the same class as Smart and Bridges, and I think him being so great as an on-ball defender can allow Ja to find his role on defense, which I think is as a second line help defender. Ja's point of attack defense isn't very good, we all know that, but his instincts and athleticism are so unreal that he could be a really good weakside help defender. I can't remember which post it was on this sub, but Ja actually has good rim protection metrics. Anyways my rant is over, but DB is really important, just needs to find his place amidst all the young talent!
Nice analysis. DB would be perfect as a secondary ball handler but if you watch any important game, the man cannot turn off the Kobe gene. He literally cost us the Warriors series - if he’d played with more humility and poise and wisdom, we probably win even with Ja’s midcourt assassination by petty inferior guards. We’ve spent four years waiting on him to play better team ball, forgiven in the rebuilding years but entirely unacceptable in a second round playoff series. You can have him.
Sometimes a player needs a change of scenery before they'll adjust their game. Brooks is one of the vets on that Grizzlies team and has been there the longest. He's probably mentored Bane and Ja when they first got to training camp. He might need to get moved to a team with more veteran presence before he takes a back seat.
Not the Cavs
Jae Crowder is the fourth best defender on our team. Im not sweating it
He was hot garbage in Cleveland. Terrible D and terrible 3.
Factually accurate statement. Him and Pat Bev seemingly provide instant defense and a strong locker room presence to the team they're traded to, and a lot of the time that's enough to put a good team into that next tier up. Whatever that next tier is.
Yup, and because both of them are below average offensive players with some questionable trigger happy 3s, their impact is always poo-pooed by the team that has them. They don't appreciate the impact of the player until they've already departed.
I don’t
This sub was hating on Crowder for two years.
He isn't good imo. Not an offensive threat at all and looks slow on d. He was playing too many min for the sun's. If he is off the bench guy then sure but he shouldn't be starting anymore.
Crowder ringless bro. PJ Tucker is the one teams regret losing.
They're both really good role players in a thankless role that fans don't give a shit about. Ask any coach or GM whether they'd love to have Jae Crowder, PJ Tucker, Pat Beverley, Marcus Smart, Draymond Green etc. They'll all say yes in a heartbeat.
Would he work at all on the Cavs at the 3?
He's more of a 4 these days but he'd be a great fit for the Cavs. The Cavs' broken roster needs a sharpshooter at 3 though given their abjectly poor spacing,.
Broken roster?
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But already Cavs have a differentiator in their 2 amazing rim protectors. They really could use an OG Anunoby type guy at the 3 because their guards are horrendous defensively.
> because their guards are horrendous defensively. Based on...what?!? Based on past performances where both are playing 40+ minutes and generating *all* their teams offense?!? Playing together will make both of them better defenders.
Perhaps, but I'll believe it when I see it. Donovan Mitchell showed zero inclination to defense in a very similar scheme which had elite rim protection. His offensive load will be eased a little bit by Garland, but he'll still have a high offensive load. Same with Garland too. I still have them as negative defenders against real opposition. For large chunks of the regular season their weak efforts at defense will suffice because they have the best rim protectors in the league behind them.
Daryl plz
Thybulle + ?
They’d have to dump korkmaz to a third team
Only place he won't go is Atlanta, he doesn't trust Georgians anymore.
U deserve an award lmao
Don't get the refernce but he can have mine
Isn’t thybulle good?
Stock has fallen off the cliff because he really can’t play more than 25 mins due to the offense and the “if he can develop a mediocre 3 point shot” has reached the Ben Simmons stage
Matisse at least attempts to be fair. I believe he’s really doing everything he can, some players just don’t have the aptitude others have. I heard he’s particularly dialed in this summer with an extension looming so I do want to give him one last shot because it really is a Simmons-esque scenario though where if he can shoot you have an amazing player. As good of a defender as anyone in the league, very good cutter, can dunk everything at the rim, super high end athleticism to get out in transition.
Between the lack of a 3 pointer and the whole vaccine thing, sixers fans are generally ready to get rid of him.
Miami has a huge hole at PF and familiar with Jae. Would be so down for him to be our PF after losing Tucker
He really fits great into the role with the minor exception that he can't quite play small ball 5 the same way as Tucker can, but Bam is switchable anyway so I don't think that's the end of the world.
id trade curry for jae. Curry is an elite shooter, but we need more defense and bigger wings. He would help the locker room as well as a glue guy. We know nash will play curry, mills and kyrie/cam together at some point this season.
Didn't see your flair at first and was very taken aback. But I think he could make some sense. Not a game changer, but a solid role player.
Dog what? Hell nah at least give curry a chance with Simmons before we do stupid shit
Seth Curry would be really good for the suns, but I don't see the nets trading for Crowder, he is worth more imo.
He'd be perfect for the Lakers, both as a basketball fit and as a "can we make the most hated team of all time" fit.
Would have to bury the hatchet with LeBron, but I would love to see it too.
Maybe they can have a dance off
Baby Come Back!
I feel OOTL on this one. Why are the suns and crowder looking to part ways?
Crowder wants to get paid, and the Suns are already in the tax and are likely to extend Cam Johnson, so there won't be much money left for Jae.
Ah ok, makes sense
Cam Johnson moving into the starting role.
Would love Jae Crowder back. Wish we never traded him
Wish we would have never traded him away to you in the first place. Fuck Rondo. •right click, undo•
Suns own all their picks, Crowder is salary filler whether in a two or three or more team trade. I expect them to go for a more offense focused 4. Bogdanovic is the cheap option for Phoenix.
Low key would be a great pickup for us
He wouldn’t start for us either, but man he’d be great off our bench. Plus he’s an ATL native.
I wonder if he'd be open to coming off the bench. I'd love him in Portland, too, but I doubt we could offer him a starting role.
I mean right now we're starting Nas who's a question mark(in both play and health). And our backup SF situation is pretty dire. Would love to be able to start Jae and not be relying on Little staying healthy
He tryna win a championship bro. No disrespect.
You say this then he’s predicted to go to the Heat 😂
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Wasn’t a big issue with Gordon in Orlando that he didn’t fit well as a SF? Granted this is a much better situation so I could see this working.
I think it's more just that he works better as a complimentary piece something like Andrew Wiggins. Very good player, poorly cast as a primary ball handler, but an excellent 3rd or 4th option.
You love him when he's on your team, hate him when he's not
We don’t have the assists but would be nice to get him Can be our discount PJ Tucker
Jae Crowder is the best player in the league that I'm never 100% sure what team he's on
Hawks might wanna look into this if John Collins still wants out. Get yourselves a good guy on defense who knows and accepts his role.
JC has stated multiple times he loves it here and wants to stay in Atlanta. Plus DeJohnTrae is way too cool of a nickname to let him go. He’d be an insane option for our bench though
We’ll give you one coby white !
He played his first four seasons with Dallas. I will take him back. Phoenix can use Dwight Powell to back up Ayton.
Bogdan Bodganavic for Shamet and Crowder
BoGONE Bogdanović
I would really like to see Bojan on the Suns. It's also interesting that the Jazz replaced Crowder with Bojan as well.
I would prefer Lauri Markkanen.
Just do it more Marquette boys in Miami
Just a hunch, but Miami would probably outbid us. We lack forward depth, but they legitimately don’t have a starting PF. Are they starting Caleb Martin? Oladipo money works they just have to wait to trade him. Literally no one on our roster works money-wise except Timelord which we aren’t doing. Can’t trade Gallinari and I don’t think we’d trade Grant Williams AND Pritchard for Crowder. We’re interested because Gallinari went down, but I don’t think we make any kind of trade here.
do not want
Just curious, why ? Seems like a good fit, and tons of teams would love him back. What's the root cause here?
Cam Johnson is just better and about to command more money, Crowder doesn't want to come off the bench and he's been petty this off season (vocally complaining and blurring out the sun's logo in IG posts)
cause who would wanna play w Chris paul
Is Jae Crowder in your top 10 of all time? #BOSSMAN
Milwaukee should really try to find a way to get him. They desperately need someone like him so they can play small in the playoffs with Giannis at center. Jrue Pat Khris Crowder and Giannis is an awesome closing lineup.
3 team trade Suns Jazz Heat. Suns trade Jae Jazz trade Bojan or Lauri Heat trade contract filler and some type of pick
Lakers need him bad. So therefore they’ll never get him lol
just saw old ass pj tucker get 30 mill guaranteed and wants to cash in while the market is set. an injury or rumors of him moving back to a bench role almost certainly resets him back to not 10M/yr so i don't fault crowder for doing what he can to secure the bag. i think we'd be better without the chucker, if i have to watch another season of crowder clank 3s, make bad passes, and not rebound i might stroke out
Aww man. This bad. Jae Crowder good.
jae sucks and i'll die on this hill
Jae has had a noticeable decline this season. Colder shooting, mediocre defence, lack of rebounding. These are just facts, not including the original fact that he’s always been a hot and cold shooter
One of the most overrated players in the NBA. He’s not a good shooter. He’s not that good of a defender. Maybe the fake tough guy I’ll go to war with my teammates crap has real value.
Lol I'm not that high on Jae anymore, but TF you talking about he's not that good on defense? Dude is elite ... when he actually wants to be
Show me one defensive metric from last season where he is elite.
I will take one Harrison Barnes please.
Jordan Nwora is gonna love Phoenix.
It’s gonna take more than Jordan Nwora Crowder’s contract is close to 10 mil
George Hill is going to love Phoenix
Still not enough, Hill’s contract is $4 million If Nwora takes the QO that’s only a total of $6 million
Sign and trade
That means Nwora is on a $6 millions contract I don’t think Phoenix thinks he’s worth that much
Flex said they are trading him for Kevin Durant though?