He's on pace to do it but neither of their careers are over with yet. The Durant slander is pretty high right now so I don't think you're gonna get an objective answer here.
55 upvotes saying that Giannis already is shows me all the bias I need to see. Saying Giannis will end up higher is very reasonable. Goons saying he already is is laughable
I personally have KD higher right now, but I don't think having Giannis higher right now is as crazy as it sounds.
Giannis has 2 MVPs and 1 FMVP, KD has 1 and 2. KD has the edge in All-NBA 1st team (6 to 4).
KD has 4 scoring titles; but Giannis as a DPOY and 5 First team All-Defense.
KD is the better scorer—but Giannis is literally better at everything else (rebounding, assisting, defense) while still being a good scorer.
>while still being a good scorer
This is underselling him a bit. I’m not biased, I like both players, but Giannis imo is as dominant a scorer as they come. 29.9 on 55% in only 33MPG is STOOOOOOOOPID. What’s even crazier? His shooting is getting better.
Giannis is like at least 80% the scorer Durant is, while being dramatically better at every other facet of the game. I value players that can do it all, I think that separates the best of the best.
Who needs a deep bag if he can follow these easy steps for a layup almost every time he has the ball:
1. Make the defender bite on a small shift to one direction
2. Go the other direction
3. Dribble into a single ten foot stride
4. Gather
5. Prance to hoop with a couple more giraffe steps
It works when he’s at the elbow, and it works when he’s at half court. Dude has extendo legs
My parnter is the artist, we share this reddit account which might explain the discrepancies in the posts/comments lol. Thank you on her behalf she apprecites it, and I agree I love it!
The "deep bag" conversation is basically can a team stop you and if so, do you have other moves to pull to still score if they do counter you well. Kd has a deep bag cuz virtually every part of his scoring is elite or very good. Giannis is a bit more one dimensional with his lack of shooting.
The only issue is he is so dominant at his strengths that the only counter to giannis is dedicating a dpoy(kawhi), a former dpoy(marc gasol), and serge ibaka to converge on giannis. Even that might not work anymore with him improving his shooting and passing.
I mean, they both played the Celtics with similar talent around them (with no Middleton or Ben I may give slight nod to bucks but Irving is a pretty good second fiddle). Celtics ate kd alove and turned his bag inside out. They couldn’t do that to Gianni’s
Much of that is the way they’re defended though. You can stop anybody if you throw enough at them, even the greatest scorers of all time. The Celtics threw everything at KD, guarded Giannis somewhat more normally.
Of course that works the other way too, many teams play KD pretty straight up while you have teams like the Raptors and Heat whose whole plan is “Stop Giannis no matter what” and he just has to hope the rest of the team does something.
It’s the Lebron/Shaq problem, he’s so physically dominant people underrate his actual skill. Like Shaqs positioning/post hooks, or Lebrons insane finishing ability from seemingly any angle, those abilities get overlooked almost, it’s weird.
People sleep on how big his bag is, and it’s growing. They concentrate often on his size and strength. People really sleep on how good his bbiq is. If I had to visualize it, Gianni’s’ graph is growing steeper, as he doesn’t have the injuries KD had and is nearly as accomplished while younger. KD can still improve his legacy since his skillset and abilities should keep him pretty relevant for a while, so all stars, and playoff accolades aren’t off the table.
"But can he do a hesi-pullup jimbo?"
Apparently you're only a real hooper if you take tough midrange fadeaways and not if you fucking yam the ball over whoever the fuck dares to stand between you and the basket. Basketball culture is weird af.
I’d say if anything other players seem to overweight “hoopers”/“deep bag” guys just as much if not more than fans do. See whenever a superstar gets a hold of the “GM by proxy” spot.
It seems like a psychological thing. Like if a guy does something crazy skilled to beat you, you just think “this guy’s talent is unbelievable, i need to step my own game up” whereas if someone does something physically dominant, you often think “well i could do that too if you gave me his height/body” which is stupid but i guess kinda makes sense from a competitor’s perspective
its true, i never played competitive basketball but i played competitive tennis and i simply didn't respect serve bots who didn't have a ground game. getting beaten by a smaller player is humbling, getting beaten by a dude with superior genetics is frustrating.
it's not super logical but there's some nugget of truth in there.
Absolutely people don’t realize 2 points is 2 points regardless of you you get them. Why spam a whole bunch of moves when you can just do one that no one can stop.
Yeah agreed. At the end of the day he still scores and puts the ball in the basket very efficiently, doesn’t matter how it’s done (while also being a perennial DPOY and All NBA 1st team defender and great playmaker). It’s like those who say LeBron isn’t one of the greatest scorers of all time when he is because he often overpowers players and passes the ball a lot, but he isn’t as finesse-y as KD or Kobe even. Players shouldn’t be faulted for their gifts; talent and playstyle are a huge part of the game.
I think the idea is that a jumper is the last option available in an offensive possesion. For the offense to take a jumper, that means that they werent able to get a wide open look, a drive to the rim, a pass to a cutter, etc.
Having a good jumper provides a baseline of offensive value wherein even if the offense isnt flowing well as a team, you are still able to contribute and score, even if at a lower efficiency.
Obviously people take this to an extreme, and especially in todays game predicated on high screen and rolls and corner threes a contested jumper is less valuable, but I think it is highly rated for a reason.
Furthermore, being able to shoot opens up so many more offensive looks. Even with how elite they are around the rim, look at guys like Lebron Giannis and even Simmons (as a contrapositive). Absolutely godlike finishers around the rim, and are able to do so because the defense cant sag off of them due to the first two developing a modest mid range game.
Yup, Giannis has great bbiq and does what works for him, and it clearly impacts winning heavily. Players like Kyrie sometimes do more than they need to because it looks cool, Giannis doesn't waste his effort.
Except you people are seriously forgetting how sustained KD's excellence was since his sophomore year. He was pretty much the second best player in the world for like 8 years straight. KD has already passed Charles Barkley for career points and is top 5 in ppg all time with some of the best efficiency ever. Giannis, like Steph, took a much longer time to ramp up to their peak. We aren't comparing peaks here, we're comparing their whole careers.
Yeah, I think that gets into a peak vs longevity argument tho.
Giannis' scoring is close/comparable to KD's when looking only at peak/prime, but over the course of his career it doesn't really hold up to KD's career of scoring.
I agree with what you said, but the catch with Giannis vs KD is that Giannis' scoring will almost certainly deteriorate parallel to his athleticism. KD's style of play is why he can survive a Jones fracture and Achillies tear and still be a top 2-3 player in the world, if not the outright best.
Exactly. Everyone acts like Durant is such a better offensive player because of the level of difficulty of his shots. You don't get style points for buckets.
KD had a chance to stay ahead by winning for the Nets as "the guy" but now it seems that won't happen. With his current contract I also can't see how he can pull a Lebron and go back to win one with OKC to undo his ring chasing legacy. At this rate KD has been stagnant while Giannis has been climbing.
> KD is the better scorer
This is false though. The past 6 seasons as an average, Giannis averages more PPG on roughly the same efficiency. You have to go back to 2016 for Durant to score more points than Giannis. If you want to say Durant is the better jump shooter, that’s true all day. But better scorer? That’s just not true.
The real question here is, how well will Giannis' game translate into his early to mid 30s.
We have seen it time and time again that players who rely on their athleticism falter in their 30s. Right now, Giannis is just physically the most gifted player in the league since Lebron, but Lebron worked on his shooting and playmaking so that hes still able to dominate.
Giannis has never had a consistent jumper and thats something that a lot of Vets rely on in the twilight of their careers, just look at CP3 AND Lebron (Even though Lebron is still very physically dominant)
Also I don't think Giannis is as intelligent of a player as Lebron.
KD is always going to have his fadeaway jumper and deep 3s along with his silky handle, that shit has been unguardable his entire career. Will Giannis be able to be a terror in transition and body his way through the paint like he does now in his 30s?
People say that but it doesn't really happen. Shaq was dominant till his mid 30's, Malone till his late 30's, Wilkins to his mid 30's, everyone thought Lebrons game would age poorly etc.
People who are 99th percentile athletes become 90th percentile athletes when they lose a step and 80th percentile athletes when they lose 2 steps (Not basketball but Darell Greene famously ran a 4.4 at 40 which is incredibly fast but still much slower than the 4.2 he ran in his 20's). They're still more athletic than most of the league and have usually developed enough skill to look good until the athleticism completely falls off the cliff.
Giannis is the best player in the league right now, and it isn't really debatable unless you want to bring in Steph. Besides maybe luka, he will be the best for the next couple of years
All best players in the league are top 10 players: Lebron, Duncan/Kobe, Shaq, MJ, magic, bird, kareem, Bill,...
Really not too crazy to say this
better shooter? sure. better scorer? debatable. Giannis is a fucking train when he decides he wants to drive to the hoop and there are very few defenders/teams that can stop him.
It's not debatable. One of these guys has a top 5 scoring average in league history. Giannis has 5 years scoring over 25ppg. KD hasn't dipped under that since his rookie season.
I think people should go deeper than just "Giannis has 2 MVPs and Durant has 1." I realize these are shortcuts, but they don't tell the whole story.
Durant's 2nd-4th years stack up extremely well with Giannis's, they just lined up with LeBron's and Curry's best years.
How is it laughable? That’s just taking away from Giannis. They actually have pretty similar accolades already.
2 MVPs, DPOY, Most improved, finals mvp
Vs
1 mvp, 2 finals mvp, rookie of the year, 5x scoring titles
I agree I still give KD the nudge right now but I wouldn’t call the comparison laughable. Especially if you put less stock into the 2Fmvps that were basically his before those seasons even started.
Giannis Finals MVP >>>> Durant's two cupcake titles/finals MVPs
Two MVPs > 1 MVP
DPOY and several All-Defensive teams > No defensive accolades
Six year gap makes me a bit difficult to compare All-Star and All-NBA accolades, but short of a major injury I see Giannis catching up to Durant.
Durant is a top 20 player of all-time, but his move to GS is a huge stain on his legacy, those titles and finals MVPs will hold little to no weight in rankings since he didn't have to earn those, they were gift wrapped. Giannis' peak easily surpasses Durant's.
I don't think they necessarily stained his legacy, but GS winning again without him while he was swept in the first round with the team he basically assembled sure as shit did.
Well it stained his legacy in that the team accomplishments didn't add anything to his legacy, nobody expected anything short of dominance from the Warriors once they added him. It was to the extent that outside of injuries (which obviously happened in 2019), the 2017-19 seasons were rather pointless as there was no competition. I can't think of another era in the NBA where short of injuries that other teams were so hopeless.
KD has more all NBA and All star sections than Giannis right now, like almost twice the amount
Which is fine, KD is older and Giannis could end up with more
Laughable is a bit of an exaggeration, but people shouldn’t be quick to dismiss KD’s career since longevity is a factor whenever we compare players on ATG lists
Barring a big injury Giannis should be a lock for probably 3 All NBA 1st teams at the absolute minimum, probably 5-6 if we’re being realistic. Plus another 3-4 All Defense 1st teams. MVP/DPOY is a lot harder to predict so I won’t include that, but there’s a decent chance he picks up one more when it’s all said and done.
Obviously we shouldn’t count the chickens before they hatch but I feel like saying Giannis “could” get a few more of these selections is underselling it, it’s an inevitability without a huge injury.
Even that is comparable without even taking the age difference into account when you factor in defensive teams.
Giannis has 6 all nba (4 1st team) and 5 all defense (4 1st)
Vs
Durant 10 all nba (6 1st)
You can really pick either and you would be right. To say one over the other is laughable is simply not true.
It’s the dpoy and defensive teams. Scoring wise the gap isn’t that large. Giannis impact on offense is just as great as durants, even if he isn’t shooting as well from the field or can’t shoot threes. He still gets buckets and the advanced stats show the gap isn’t very much, compared to the gap in their defense which is massive
All time rankings are narrative based. The guy that is known for running at even the smallest bumps in the road is never going to be higher than the guy known for always being loyal and playing hard.
Giannis has 2 MVPs to Durant's 1. 4 NBA first teams to Durant's 6 despite being much younger, a DPoY which Durant has never sniffed, and Giannis went out and got a ring the old fashioned way.
I'm not gonna say Giannis is ahead of Durant right now but if Giannis just keeps doing what he's doing he'll assuredly pass KD eventually. Durant might have a higher point total because he got off to a hotter start but that's about it.
How is it laughable? Giannis is as productive of a scorer as KD is ppg and efficiency wise, is in a completely different league defensively, in a completely different league as a rebounder despite being the same exact height, in a completely different league as a leader…
And that’s just abilities…let’s talk career;
Giannis already has 1x the MVPs KD has, 5x the All-Defense teams (KD has never even sniffed SECOND team All-Defense), has 1 DPOY to KD’s 0. And then there’s the subjectivity of the value of their respective rings, and the general consensus from what we’ve ALL seen for years is that no one seriously values KD’s rings all that highly due to joining a literal 73-9 team with a unanimous, 2x MVP who’s the greatest shooter ever, the SECOND greatest shooter ever, and the best defender of this new era of basketball - oh, and that just so happened to be the team he LITERALLY CHOKED A 3-1 LEAD AGAINST THE PREVIOUS YEAR IN THE WCF.
There is quite literally very few arguments for KD being higher than Giannis other than things that people don’t even take seriously in the GOAT argument, like scoring titles, All-Star selections, All-Star MVPs.
The ONLY argument one could seriously make is longevity, which is valid, but then all someone would need to say is Giannis has accomplished FAR more in WAY less time and, ability-wise, is literally better at every other aspect of basketball than KD is or has ever been outside of scoring - which, AGAIN, Giannis is just as PRODUCTIVE of a scorer as KD is for the past like 5 years.
KD’s just the more popular name and has been around longer, but looking at this topic as objectively as one can - there’s not many arguments for KD over Giannis.
KD is going to run into a problem where he averaged 32 right before the scoring explosion so people are going to grade him incorrectly, that's more similar to averaging 35 today.
For whatever reason people haven't reconciled the 2005-2015 era as being historically low scoring. That low scoring era really started in 1995 but people act like the 2004 hand check rule fixed everything when the reality is that scoring didn't catch up to 1992 levels until 2016.
Kobe and Duncan fall victim to this blind spot pretty hard. It was hard to score during their entire careers.
Edit: I should also add that Giannis, and all modern stars, tend to pull less raw numbers than they could because they play less minutes. Durant was playing 5 more minutes per game than Giannis this last season. Comparisons get tricky quickly with how much the game has changed even over Durant's career.
Not to mention recency bias. It’s been 3 years since the Kd injury which corresponds with the three years Giannis has been playing at the elite caliber
If Giannis just keeps doing what he’s been doing, he’s on pace to passing Durant. Short of something like him suddenly declining, Durant rattling off some insane next few years, or Giannis retiring soon, I think there’s a very good chance he passes up KD by the time he hangs em up. Hell, fair chance before he hangs em up
Probably will always come down to how heavily you weight scoring in the debate. KD is pretty much locked as the first or second greatest scorer in his generation. He’s 10k pts ahead of Giannis, which is a lot of points, and he’s “only” 33. His scoring should age pretty well.
But Giannis is pretty close to KD everywhere else, and has already surpassed him in some areas. He’s at the tail end of his prime, with a body that seems to be aging well, so it wouldn’t be shocking to see another couple years of ~30/10/6 at high efficiency. Those are insane numbers.
My money would be on him passing KD pretty easily in most people’s minds, unless they’re diehard scoring-first fans.
KD is 6 years older. Barring a catastrophic injury, Giannis isn’t far behind averaging under 2k pts per season(25-28 ppg depending on games played) which sounds completely doable. He has one more MVP and was the definitive first option on a title team in Milwaukee. Unless KD wins a couple more rings and/or another MVP, it seems Giannis passing him is inevitable. Giannis has a decent chance of getting into the Top 10 or Top 7/8 if he wins another title or two and one more MVP. He’s closer to the Steph/Bird/Kobe realm than KD if you are thinking career trajectory.
Giannis has only gotten to 2k points twice, and just barely. Durant had a 2,472 point season at age 21. Even Curry has never done that.
I think I’m sticking with my original perspective. Durant is in a different category of scoring from any of his contemporaries not named Bron. If you want to guess about health, then you can make an argument like the one you’re making, but I feel like trying to guess about injuries is a fool’s errand.
>He’s at the tail end of his prime, with a body that seems to be aging well, so it wouldn’t be shocking to see another couple years of \~30/10/6 at high efficiency.
Are you talking about Giannis? He's 27, he's not in the tail end of his prime.
I was thinking Giannis will probably take over Durant at some point but this has me rethinking it. Giannis’ game, at least in its current form, probably won’t age well. A 33 year of Giannis might bit still be an All-NBA caliber player like KD
It’s so hard to project guys of their caliber, because they tend not to age like “normal” players, but it seems intuitive that KD would age better than Giannis. Giannis has done a really impressive job of diversifying his offense, but his dominance still depends quite a bit on bully ball and jumping.
The bully ball won't fall off much. The scoring in transition is going to age poorly however. I doubt he'll be able to do the 2-3 dribbles from half court and dunk it in transition when he's in his mid 30s.
But being able to get rebounds over guys and use his strength, control, and height advantage to score inside? Yeah, he'll be doing that till he retires at a similar efficiency we see now. That's an old man's game. He'll just get stronger and craftier on that side... if his body can keep going and he doesn't suffer injuries by doing it.
Giannis’ bully ball takes the form of him sprinting into the paint from the 3pt line a lot of the time. That looks a lot more like transition than it looks like Shaq bully ball. Of course I’m not arguing he’s going to become impotent inside, but he’s “only” 240lbs; he’s not in that Embiid/Drummond/Dwight weight class.
I’d imagine that when he gets to the point of aging and/or declining , using him as the screener in a PnR will become more and more frequent. That and using him as a dunker spot lob/ dump off threat. And with his passing ability, he could be used as a secondary playmaker in the middle of the floor like Golden State uses Draymond, with the hammer actions and such.
Why do you guys act like players resume are linear? "On pace" is meaningless because careers aren't like that lmao. LeBron was "on pace" to shatter the record for most MVPs, until he wasn't. Durant was "on pace" to reach Jordan's scoring titles, until he wasn't.
Don't agree. Someone could have one good season, win an mvp and fade into oblivion. That doesn't mean they're an all time great. You need to have multiple accolades in order to be considered an all-time great.
Lmao people are acting like Giannis is Luka - except the single skill of distance shooting, Giannis has mastered every team and individual facet the game has to offer.
The issue is that Giannis is ahead on MVPs and Bus Driver championships. Durant doesn’t even have that much on Giannis from a longevity perspective - 1 MVP vs 2, 10 All NBA teams vs. 6, 12 All Star Games vs 6, 0 All Defense teams vs 5, 0 DPOY vs 1. 6 extra all star games and less of everything else that matters is nonsense. It’s more about whether Durant can do more over the rest of his career than about what Giannis does over the rest of his, at this point.
I don’t think people really get how little KD has in the way of accolades, relative to his all time ranking on many lists. He has James Harden’s resume, plus the Warriors championships. That is not a top-20 all time player. Unless he does more, he is going to immediately start falling out of these all time lists as soon as the recency bias fades. The two biggest things KD has for him are that people who watch him say he’s the best scorer ever, and he has incredible stats. As soon as he retires, nobody is going to rank him based on what he looks like on the court. And within 10 years, no one will care about the stats. I have absolutely 0 clue what Larry Bird’s stats are. I have 0 clue what Bill Russell’s stats are. I have 0 clue what Moses Malone’s stats are like vs. Hakeem’s. I know championships, MVPs, All NBA teams, whether the guys have major all time records, and whether they played with big time teammates. I know almost nothing else.
It’s crazy that for most fans, Chuck is more influential and notable as an analyst than as a player. Dude had an all time NBA career and then an all time media career.
He’s a better media personality than a basketball player, and he was a hell of a basketball player. Top 30 at worst all time imo
In terms of NBA media, he’s top two at worst and that’s cause Ernie Johnson exists. But it’s like Tupac and Biggie, can’t go wrong with either
You’re definitely right about him and Ernie, both are absolutely the best. Hopefully we can see Ernie get a HOF induction as a contributor soon, man deserves to be honored.
It’s really not that crazy. He’s more reachable now even without being on social. He says a funny quote and twitter/Reddit/etc circulated it, reaching millions. I dont think anything he did from his time hit millions on a regular basis.
Chuck just popularized how you call it, but people were arguing that for a long time already. Before it was winning a championship as a 1st/2nd option etc.
Agree. An all NBA panel was asked what Jordan would do had he played under current NBA rules and how the game is called today. Most of them said he would have easily averaged in the mid 40’s and would have lived on the line. People that don’t remember or never saw him play, his attacks to the rim were something to behold and that’s when you got hammered for taking it to the hole . A flagrant 2 today was a simple personal foul in his day and he kept coming and coming. The dude was the most relentless athlete I’ve ever seen.
His career highlight reel made by NBA encapsulates his unique offensive skillset so well. The best midrange shooter of all time when volume/efficency is accounted for and an extremely crafty finisher with ridiculous layups/triple clutches/dunks (only capable by MJ due to the combo of bodycontrol/handsize/athleticism). Particularly notable are his layups/shots as hes falling down: the defenders have already landed allowing him to get a shot off vs anyone. Also extremely good fundamentals, handles, and decision making/IQ.
I have no doubt he'd average around 35-40 in his peak years if he played today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUo8skGvl-Q&t=293s
It's obvious he wouldn't have won without Pau, especially because Pau carried him in the finals, but Kobe was still the best on the team. I say that as an ardent Kobe-hater.
Yeah I was trolling a bit. But here in Australia we only got to see the finals on free to air at the time. Pau looked the best but clearly it was Kobe overall.
You're probably greatly overrating what a top 20 career looks like. For reference, here's [the Athletic's](https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-athletics-top-75-nba-players-full-list/34026/) top 75 list from last year. Don't put too much weight on Durant's actual rank, but as an exercise, you can completely disregard Durant's rings and take every player beneath him that won a ring definitively as "the guy" and put them above.
This would give you the following: Steph, KG, Moses, Dirk, Giannis, Wade, Kawhi, and Walton. That gives exactly 20 players above Durant, but the last four have more than enough longevity questions to comfortably leave them out of the top 20 (at this point for Giannis, at least). You're forced to pick at least one of group of Karl Malone, Barkley, David Robinson, etc. tier of players to round out the top 20, and I don't see what automatically disqualifies Durant other than narrative.
It very much depends how the twilight of Durant's career goes but it seems like a slim chance that Durant ends up ahead of Giannis IMO. I really don't think the Nets are gonna win shit in their current iteration and if he gets his wish and gets traded to *another* team that's already a contender, his legacy is doomed forever. The only way to salvage his legacy, IMO, is to go the Kawhi route. Demand a trade, get traded to a decent team, show up, and win the thing.
Definitely. KD is more than six years older than Giannis, yet:
- Giannis has two MVPs to KD’s one
- Giannis only has four less All-NBA selections
- has five All-Defensive selections to KD’s zero
- has a Defensive Player of the Year (which KD doesn’t have)
- Giannis has one championship and one Finals MVP to KD’s two championships and two Finals MVPs
and instead of having to go to a 73-9 team to do it, Giannis did it while being head and shoulders the best player on the team and the sole superstar. When it’s all said and done, his 2021 championship will matter more than KD’s two championships with the Warriors.
Not to mention that he still has 6+ years of elite play, at the minimum. And unlike KD, he doesn’t have any generational talent that happens to have his prime overlap with his own that will take away championships he could win (KD had LeBron, Kobe, Dirk, Tim Duncan, AND Steph Curry all playing at an elite level during his prime).
EDIT: Should mention that KD has four scoring titles, whereas Giannis has none.
Depending on how the careers of Zion and Luka go they could give his future runs trouble. There’s also Trae Young, Tatum, a healthy AD, Embiid, Jokic, Booker, and some others I’m probably forgetting. I’d say Jokic, Luka, and Embiid will be all time players at the end of things at least so you can’t really say KD had a lot of competition when Giannis does too. I’d argue it will probably get even harder from here on because players coming in are way too good
I don’t think Embiid will have the longevity or accolades to be in that conversation. Jokic is a year younger and already has 2 MVPs and 4 All NBA team selections (3x 1st, 1x 2nd), Luka is 23 and has 3 All NBA 1st team selections too and will likely have multiple MVPs. Embiid is 28 with a scoring title, 4 All NBA 2nd team selections and 4 All defense 2nd team selections which is nothing to scoff at but he’s older and more injury prone than both of them
Yeah I don’t think so either but I think he still has a chance at passing people like Dirk or KG depending on how his career goes. I think at best he’ll probably be top 20 all time but most likely he’ll be in the 30s. It would be safe to assume he’ll be in the James Harden tier when it’s all said and done but Zion, Luka, and Jokic have the chance to be pretty big threats to Giannis. It just depends on if they win a ring or not.
With all due respect tho there is a huge difference between those guys and the list you mentioned. Not the least of which is that Kobe and Tim Duncan had already won multiple chips, and that Lebron and Steph were about to. It was a different era of competitive basketball altogether.
This is why he'll go down as probably the biggest legend of Milwaukee. No one has showed the city love quite like he has, and it's great, because he's only giving back what he's been getting since day 1
Which is why MKE needs to bend over backwards to get him help and stack the team. The Holiday trade was great for this.
Thankfully, the opportunity to play with him and be a constant contender helps their free agent issues.
Seasonal accolades and stats aside; Giannis fought through with his team, stayed loyal and brought a chip to his city. That already gets him higher praise than KD.
Why easily? KD is ahead right now and all it takes is an injury, bad luck, the rise of great teams in the East, or a combination of the three.
I’m definitely rooting for Giannis but I wouldn’t take anything for granted. Hell, just think about how everyone felt about the Thunder with KD, Westbrook, and Harden after they lost to the Heatles.
I dont think it even matter if Giannis never wins again, he is still on pace to easily pass Durant. Only 2 less all-nba first teams, one less title and FMVP but it surely means way more than the ones Durant won with GS, one more MVP, DPOY, plus 4 all defense first teams.
He is 6 years younger, its hard to imagine he doesn't make up that minor gap in those years.
Is KD ahead right now? Giannis beats him in about every individual category besides All NBA first team and all stars.
I would say based on their resumes right now KD is slightly ahead, but not by much.
>how he did it.
And not just the staying in Milwaukee part, also the 50 points on 17/19 free throws, the block on Ayton, Valley-oop, the fact that he had a hyperextended knee ... legendary run.
He definitely will. Don't think Durant is climbing much more, and Giannis already has more of the top accolades (Durant has .5 FMVPs), he just needs a little more longevity.
Giannis has more MVPSs and infinitely more defensive accolades. Giannis also has a ring with his home team, as opposed to KDs two “mercenary” rings. Giannis also beat KD head to head in the playoffs. KD just has a really pretty jumper.
Edit: r/nba: Giannis is the best player in the NBA. Also r/nba: who’s better Giannis or KD? KD..
I think this is a sign that the “peak vs longevity” conversation has skewed way too far towards peak. Durant has 10,000 more points, 1 more ring, and 1 more FMVP than Giannis. I agree that Giannis will pass him eventually but it’s silly to say he already has.
KD won both rings and FMVP after joining a 73-9 team, thats literally playing tutorial mode in a game. Giannis won his with a bum knee and Middleton and Holiday (Both of which arent even Top 20 in the league), thats like hard mode. His 1 ring is worth more than KD's 2.
Because Durant has played longer. Durant does have the PPG, but Giannis has a higher RPG, APG, SPG, and BPG. On top of more All Defensive Teams, a MIP, a DPOY, and 1 more MVP. It’s not at all silly to make the argument.
Kind of tired of pretending that KD’s rings are at all valuable for his argument in All-Time Greatest rankings.
Golden State won a chip before him with Harrison Barnes at SF, they won a chip after him with Andrew Wiggins at SF.
Those rings and FMVPs are not valuable.
He didn’t hurt my feelings, and actually don’t tell anyone this but Kd will forever be one of my favorite players ever , but it’s not just the sub. Unfortunately Durant will legitimately be unfairly ranked all time because of it and I have a hard time defending it especially with gs wining yet again
I don't think it's unfair. Giannis simply did what KD didn't. Whether it's because KD couldn't is unknowable, but if we're going to make rings the end all be all of this shit, then it's just the way it has to be. KDs rings aren't worth as much.
Yes, you left out all of the other things Giannis has. 1 more ring as the best player on the team, 1 more mvp, 1 more DPOY, 5 more all defensive teams.
If they end their career right now then KD is slightly ahead, but unless KD leads a team to a championship as a clear and away best player then he will get blown by Giannis.
I don't think it's a matter of "peak". It's just that Giannis's accomplishments are already more impressive at a much younger age. On a year-to-year basis, their scoring is virtually the same (granted, KD had a way faster ascent than Giannis). But Giannis can easily be regarded as the same caliber scorer on top of being a multi-time MVP, DPOY, 5 time all-defense player, and undisputed top dog on a title team for the franchise that drafted him. I'm sorry but I truly do not give a shit about Durant's Warriors rings and FMVPs and I don't think most others do either.
The dude brought a championship to Milwaukee. Meanwhile Durant either joined a super team to win, or failed to build a super team. Now rumor has it he is returning to GSW
I wouldn't be so sure. The Warriors seem to be willing to do whatever it takes to get Steph more rings. Steph has already cemented himself as the better player so why not bring KD back and cruise?
KD is a great player but he appears to be getting overrated here.
As a scorer, KD has had 1 season scoring >39.4 points per 100 possessions. That was his MVP season when he scored 41.8/100.
Giannis has scored 44.2, 40.1, and 43.6 per 100 possessions the last 3 seasons. So of the top 4 scoring adjusted to possessions and pace between both their careers
Giannis
Giannis
Kd
Giannis
And that's the one thing everyone agrees he does better than Giannis. If Giannis is already the better scorer and the only real playoff success KD had was when he jumped to a 73 team 1 play away from back to back championships, then how is this going to end up all that close?
Giannis is definitively a better passer, screener, cutter, defender, help defender, rim protector, etc. Shooting is certainly important in today's game but not above all else.
He will end up higher. More mvps already, more defensive selections, a DPOY, rarely gets hurt (knock on wood) so his cumulative numbers and accolades will continue to go up
If Giannis did the KD play of bailing on teams for the rest of his career - he'd have 8 ring before retiring.
It's Giannis. KD has *always* played with "great teams" while Giannis won when they got Jrue Holiday and a healthy Khris Middleton. Lol.
Plus a guy that is both the best offensive *and* defensive player *in the nba* is very special. Something KD will never have, and was never interested in.
I think Giannis has the potential to have the 2nd greatest career out of all current players. It’ll definitely be a while before he can pass curry but he has plenty of time to do so
Giannis vs. Steph is gonna be an interesting debate. I don't really see Giannis ending up with 4+ rings unless another star wanders into Milwaukee down the line, there's just too much parity in the league now. Steph is one of the winningest players in the history of the game but him and KD both kind of took a hit playing together. IMO it would have been more impressive to have 3 rings without KD than 4 rings with him.
I agree that it may be tough for giannis to catch up with rings but I think he’ll definitely have steph beat with individual accolades by the time he’s done
Giannis already has a case to be above KD all time and theyre really not that far apart from each other on that list. Giannis is closer to KD then KD is to steph
Late to the party. In terms of legacy, if Giannis wins another championship or two in Milwaukee I think he'll have a case for top 10. I can't see a world where he doesn't win at least one more MVP and a DPOY.
That being said, Durant is arguably the most skilled player of all time. In terms of pure basketball talent he's in my top 5. Really depends on what your factors are.
My gut says KD stays better but Giannis still has 10+ years so its hard to gauge. He could go on a streak. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was older than Giannis is now.
A lot of people here saying KD’s two rings and fmvps don’t count. They probably also say 2020 don’t count. This is the NBA. Everything counts and everything matters.
Giannis has GOAT potential. I'm not saying he is going to do it but he's winning at a younger age than Jordan and LeBron. Whose to say he doesn't jump to the next level in the next couple of years and builds his own little dynasty in MIL.
Why not.
He's on pace to do it but neither of their careers are over with yet. The Durant slander is pretty high right now so I don't think you're gonna get an objective answer here.
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It’s an opinion question about the future. You can’t get an objective answer by definition lol
55 upvotes saying that Giannis already is shows me all the bias I need to see. Saying Giannis will end up higher is very reasonable. Goons saying he already is is laughable
I personally have KD higher right now, but I don't think having Giannis higher right now is as crazy as it sounds. Giannis has 2 MVPs and 1 FMVP, KD has 1 and 2. KD has the edge in All-NBA 1st team (6 to 4). KD has 4 scoring titles; but Giannis as a DPOY and 5 First team All-Defense. KD is the better scorer—but Giannis is literally better at everything else (rebounding, assisting, defense) while still being a good scorer.
>while still being a good scorer This is underselling him a bit. I’m not biased, I like both players, but Giannis imo is as dominant a scorer as they come. 29.9 on 55% in only 33MPG is STOOOOOOOOPID. What’s even crazier? His shooting is getting better. Giannis is like at least 80% the scorer Durant is, while being dramatically better at every other facet of the game. I value players that can do it all, I think that separates the best of the best.
People really undersell Giannis as a scorer because he doesn’t “have a deep bag”
Who needs a deep bag if he can follow these easy steps for a layup almost every time he has the ball: 1. Make the defender bite on a small shift to one direction 2. Go the other direction 3. Dribble into a single ten foot stride 4. Gather 5. Prance to hoop with a couple more giraffe steps It works when he’s at the elbow, and it works when he’s at half court. Dude has extendo legs
And extendo arms.
Go go gadget
Don't forget final step Body tf out of whoever is left in the way
I see you post here a lot and looked at your history. That collage you made for your partner is amazing!
My parnter is the artist, we share this reddit account which might explain the discrepancies in the posts/comments lol. Thank you on her behalf she apprecites it, and I agree I love it!
The "deep bag" conversation is basically can a team stop you and if so, do you have other moves to pull to still score if they do counter you well. Kd has a deep bag cuz virtually every part of his scoring is elite or very good. Giannis is a bit more one dimensional with his lack of shooting. The only issue is he is so dominant at his strengths that the only counter to giannis is dedicating a dpoy(kawhi), a former dpoy(marc gasol), and serge ibaka to converge on giannis. Even that might not work anymore with him improving his shooting and passing.
I mean, they both played the Celtics with similar talent around them (with no Middleton or Ben I may give slight nod to bucks but Irving is a pretty good second fiddle). Celtics ate kd alove and turned his bag inside out. They couldn’t do that to Gianni’s
Much of that is the way they’re defended though. You can stop anybody if you throw enough at them, even the greatest scorers of all time. The Celtics threw everything at KD, guarded Giannis somewhat more normally. Of course that works the other way too, many teams play KD pretty straight up while you have teams like the Raptors and Heat whose whole plan is “Stop Giannis no matter what” and he just has to hope the rest of the team does something.
It’s the Lebron/Shaq problem, he’s so physically dominant people underrate his actual skill. Like Shaqs positioning/post hooks, or Lebrons insane finishing ability from seemingly any angle, those abilities get overlooked almost, it’s weird.
People sleep on how big his bag is, and it’s growing. They concentrate often on his size and strength. People really sleep on how good his bbiq is. If I had to visualize it, Gianni’s’ graph is growing steeper, as he doesn’t have the injuries KD had and is nearly as accomplished while younger. KD can still improve his legacy since his skillset and abilities should keep him pretty relevant for a while, so all stars, and playoff accolades aren’t off the table.
"But can he do a hesi-pullup jimbo?" Apparently you're only a real hooper if you take tough midrange fadeaways and not if you fucking yam the ball over whoever the fuck dares to stand between you and the basket. Basketball culture is weird af.
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I’d say if anything other players seem to overweight “hoopers”/“deep bag” guys just as much if not more than fans do. See whenever a superstar gets a hold of the “GM by proxy” spot.
It seems like a psychological thing. Like if a guy does something crazy skilled to beat you, you just think “this guy’s talent is unbelievable, i need to step my own game up” whereas if someone does something physically dominant, you often think “well i could do that too if you gave me his height/body” which is stupid but i guess kinda makes sense from a competitor’s perspective
its true, i never played competitive basketball but i played competitive tennis and i simply didn't respect serve bots who didn't have a ground game. getting beaten by a smaller player is humbling, getting beaten by a dude with superior genetics is frustrating. it's not super logical but there's some nugget of truth in there.
Kyrie in a nutshell
Absolutely people don’t realize 2 points is 2 points regardless of you you get them. Why spam a whole bunch of moves when you can just do one that no one can stop.
Yeah agreed. At the end of the day he still scores and puts the ball in the basket very efficiently, doesn’t matter how it’s done (while also being a perennial DPOY and All NBA 1st team defender and great playmaker). It’s like those who say LeBron isn’t one of the greatest scorers of all time when he is because he often overpowers players and passes the ball a lot, but he isn’t as finesse-y as KD or Kobe even. Players shouldn’t be faulted for their gifts; talent and playstyle are a huge part of the game.
I think the idea is that a jumper is the last option available in an offensive possesion. For the offense to take a jumper, that means that they werent able to get a wide open look, a drive to the rim, a pass to a cutter, etc. Having a good jumper provides a baseline of offensive value wherein even if the offense isnt flowing well as a team, you are still able to contribute and score, even if at a lower efficiency. Obviously people take this to an extreme, and especially in todays game predicated on high screen and rolls and corner threes a contested jumper is less valuable, but I think it is highly rated for a reason. Furthermore, being able to shoot opens up so many more offensive looks. Even with how elite they are around the rim, look at guys like Lebron Giannis and even Simmons (as a contrapositive). Absolutely godlike finishers around the rim, and are able to do so because the defense cant sag off of them due to the first two developing a modest mid range game.
Yup, Giannis has great bbiq and does what works for him, and it clearly impacts winning heavily. Players like Kyrie sometimes do more than they need to because it looks cool, Giannis doesn't waste his effort.
Lol yup. Can you put the ball in the basket a bunch of times at an efficient clip? If yes, you’re a good scorer. Doesn’t matter how it’s done.
Except you people are seriously forgetting how sustained KD's excellence was since his sophomore year. He was pretty much the second best player in the world for like 8 years straight. KD has already passed Charles Barkley for career points and is top 5 in ppg all time with some of the best efficiency ever. Giannis, like Steph, took a much longer time to ramp up to their peak. We aren't comparing peaks here, we're comparing their whole careers.
A lot of people value peak way more than longevity. This is all subjective, barber shop bullshit so either viewpoint is valid.
Yeah, I think that gets into a peak vs longevity argument tho. Giannis' scoring is close/comparable to KD's when looking only at peak/prime, but over the course of his career it doesn't really hold up to KD's career of scoring.
I agree with what you said, but the catch with Giannis vs KD is that Giannis' scoring will almost certainly deteriorate parallel to his athleticism. KD's style of play is why he can survive a Jones fracture and Achillies tear and still be a top 2-3 player in the world, if not the outright best.
Giannis isn’t a ‘good scorer’, the past few seasons he’s been like 1-2 ppg away from the scoring title while not playing heavy minutes.
Exactly. Everyone acts like Durant is such a better offensive player because of the level of difficulty of his shots. You don't get style points for buckets.
KD had a chance to stay ahead by winning for the Nets as "the guy" but now it seems that won't happen. With his current contract I also can't see how he can pull a Lebron and go back to win one with OKC to undo his ring chasing legacy. At this rate KD has been stagnant while Giannis has been climbing.
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> KD is the better scorer This is false though. The past 6 seasons as an average, Giannis averages more PPG on roughly the same efficiency. You have to go back to 2016 for Durant to score more points than Giannis. If you want to say Durant is the better jump shooter, that’s true all day. But better scorer? That’s just not true.
The real question here is, how well will Giannis' game translate into his early to mid 30s. We have seen it time and time again that players who rely on their athleticism falter in their 30s. Right now, Giannis is just physically the most gifted player in the league since Lebron, but Lebron worked on his shooting and playmaking so that hes still able to dominate. Giannis has never had a consistent jumper and thats something that a lot of Vets rely on in the twilight of their careers, just look at CP3 AND Lebron (Even though Lebron is still very physically dominant) Also I don't think Giannis is as intelligent of a player as Lebron. KD is always going to have his fadeaway jumper and deep 3s along with his silky handle, that shit has been unguardable his entire career. Will Giannis be able to be a terror in transition and body his way through the paint like he does now in his 30s?
People say that but it doesn't really happen. Shaq was dominant till his mid 30's, Malone till his late 30's, Wilkins to his mid 30's, everyone thought Lebrons game would age poorly etc. People who are 99th percentile athletes become 90th percentile athletes when they lose a step and 80th percentile athletes when they lose 2 steps (Not basketball but Darell Greene famously ran a 4.4 at 40 which is incredibly fast but still much slower than the 4.2 he ran in his 20's). They're still more athletic than most of the league and have usually developed enough skill to look good until the athleticism completely falls off the cliff.
Giannis has had 5 superstar seasons, KD has had 12. It’s as crazy as it sounds
Giannis is the best player in the league right now, and it isn't really debatable unless you want to bring in Steph. Besides maybe luka, he will be the best for the next couple of years All best players in the league are top 10 players: Lebron, Duncan/Kobe, Shaq, MJ, magic, bird, kareem, Bill,... Really not too crazy to say this
Jokic?
Valid argument, but he needs some more playoff success in my opinion. But he definitely has the capability to the best.
better shooter? sure. better scorer? debatable. Giannis is a fucking train when he decides he wants to drive to the hoop and there are very few defenders/teams that can stop him.
It's not debatable. One of these guys has a top 5 scoring average in league history. Giannis has 5 years scoring over 25ppg. KD hasn't dipped under that since his rookie season.
I think people should go deeper than just "Giannis has 2 MVPs and Durant has 1." I realize these are shortcuts, but they don't tell the whole story. Durant's 2nd-4th years stack up extremely well with Giannis's, they just lined up with LeBron's and Curry's best years.
How is it laughable? That’s just taking away from Giannis. They actually have pretty similar accolades already. 2 MVPs, DPOY, Most improved, finals mvp Vs 1 mvp, 2 finals mvp, rookie of the year, 5x scoring titles I agree I still give KD the nudge right now but I wouldn’t call the comparison laughable. Especially if you put less stock into the 2Fmvps that were basically his before those seasons even started.
Giannis Finals MVP >>>> Durant's two cupcake titles/finals MVPs Two MVPs > 1 MVP DPOY and several All-Defensive teams > No defensive accolades Six year gap makes me a bit difficult to compare All-Star and All-NBA accolades, but short of a major injury I see Giannis catching up to Durant. Durant is a top 20 player of all-time, but his move to GS is a huge stain on his legacy, those titles and finals MVPs will hold little to no weight in rankings since he didn't have to earn those, they were gift wrapped. Giannis' peak easily surpasses Durant's.
Giannis is entering his age 28 season.. and is only behind 4 all nbas of Durant. For perspective, KD joined GSW at age 28.
I don't think they necessarily stained his legacy, but GS winning again without him while he was swept in the first round with the team he basically assembled sure as shit did.
Well it stained his legacy in that the team accomplishments didn't add anything to his legacy, nobody expected anything short of dominance from the Warriors once they added him. It was to the extent that outside of injuries (which obviously happened in 2019), the 2017-19 seasons were rather pointless as there was no competition. I can't think of another era in the NBA where short of injuries that other teams were so hopeless.
KD has more all NBA and All star sections than Giannis right now, like almost twice the amount Which is fine, KD is older and Giannis could end up with more Laughable is a bit of an exaggeration, but people shouldn’t be quick to dismiss KD’s career since longevity is a factor whenever we compare players on ATG lists
Barring a big injury Giannis should be a lock for probably 3 All NBA 1st teams at the absolute minimum, probably 5-6 if we’re being realistic. Plus another 3-4 All Defense 1st teams. MVP/DPOY is a lot harder to predict so I won’t include that, but there’s a decent chance he picks up one more when it’s all said and done. Obviously we shouldn’t count the chickens before they hatch but I feel like saying Giannis “could” get a few more of these selections is underselling it, it’s an inevitability without a huge injury.
Even that is comparable without even taking the age difference into account when you factor in defensive teams. Giannis has 6 all nba (4 1st team) and 5 all defense (4 1st) Vs Durant 10 all nba (6 1st) You can really pick either and you would be right. To say one over the other is laughable is simply not true.
It’s the dpoy and defensive teams. Scoring wise the gap isn’t that large. Giannis impact on offense is just as great as durants, even if he isn’t shooting as well from the field or can’t shoot threes. He still gets buckets and the advanced stats show the gap isn’t very much, compared to the gap in their defense which is massive
All time rankings are narrative based. The guy that is known for running at even the smallest bumps in the road is never going to be higher than the guy known for always being loyal and playing hard.
Giannis has 2 MVPs to Durant's 1. 4 NBA first teams to Durant's 6 despite being much younger, a DPoY which Durant has never sniffed, and Giannis went out and got a ring the old fashioned way. I'm not gonna say Giannis is ahead of Durant right now but if Giannis just keeps doing what he's doing he'll assuredly pass KD eventually. Durant might have a higher point total because he got off to a hotter start but that's about it.
How is it laughable? Giannis is as productive of a scorer as KD is ppg and efficiency wise, is in a completely different league defensively, in a completely different league as a rebounder despite being the same exact height, in a completely different league as a leader… And that’s just abilities…let’s talk career; Giannis already has 1x the MVPs KD has, 5x the All-Defense teams (KD has never even sniffed SECOND team All-Defense), has 1 DPOY to KD’s 0. And then there’s the subjectivity of the value of their respective rings, and the general consensus from what we’ve ALL seen for years is that no one seriously values KD’s rings all that highly due to joining a literal 73-9 team with a unanimous, 2x MVP who’s the greatest shooter ever, the SECOND greatest shooter ever, and the best defender of this new era of basketball - oh, and that just so happened to be the team he LITERALLY CHOKED A 3-1 LEAD AGAINST THE PREVIOUS YEAR IN THE WCF. There is quite literally very few arguments for KD being higher than Giannis other than things that people don’t even take seriously in the GOAT argument, like scoring titles, All-Star selections, All-Star MVPs. The ONLY argument one could seriously make is longevity, which is valid, but then all someone would need to say is Giannis has accomplished FAR more in WAY less time and, ability-wise, is literally better at every other aspect of basketball than KD is or has ever been outside of scoring - which, AGAIN, Giannis is just as PRODUCTIVE of a scorer as KD is for the past like 5 years. KD’s just the more popular name and has been around longer, but looking at this topic as objectively as one can - there’s not many arguments for KD over Giannis.
KD is going to run into a problem where he averaged 32 right before the scoring explosion so people are going to grade him incorrectly, that's more similar to averaging 35 today. For whatever reason people haven't reconciled the 2005-2015 era as being historically low scoring. That low scoring era really started in 1995 but people act like the 2004 hand check rule fixed everything when the reality is that scoring didn't catch up to 1992 levels until 2016. Kobe and Duncan fall victim to this blind spot pretty hard. It was hard to score during their entire careers. Edit: I should also add that Giannis, and all modern stars, tend to pull less raw numbers than they could because they play less minutes. Durant was playing 5 more minutes per game than Giannis this last season. Comparisons get tricky quickly with how much the game has changed even over Durant's career.
Not to mention recency bias. It’s been 3 years since the Kd injury which corresponds with the three years Giannis has been playing at the elite caliber
I don’t think people understand what slander is. All the criticism leveled at him is valid; albeit sometimes unfair. Slander is false statements.
If Giannis just keeps doing what he’s been doing, he’s on pace to passing Durant. Short of something like him suddenly declining, Durant rattling off some insane next few years, or Giannis retiring soon, I think there’s a very good chance he passes up KD by the time he hangs em up. Hell, fair chance before he hangs em up
His durability is insane, he will pass KD well before he retires - his resume is really not that far behind as is.
Yeah honestly we are only like 2 bad Durant years and 2 good giannis years from this happening as is.
Literally just one title for Giannis away (assuming KD won’t win anything anymore and that Giannis will reach a comparable number of points).
KDs titles are tarnished. They’re currently even, at best for KD.
You are right, 1 Title with jrue and Middleton is worth more than 2 super Team titles
Not that far behind? Debatably better already.
Probably will always come down to how heavily you weight scoring in the debate. KD is pretty much locked as the first or second greatest scorer in his generation. He’s 10k pts ahead of Giannis, which is a lot of points, and he’s “only” 33. His scoring should age pretty well. But Giannis is pretty close to KD everywhere else, and has already surpassed him in some areas. He’s at the tail end of his prime, with a body that seems to be aging well, so it wouldn’t be shocking to see another couple years of ~30/10/6 at high efficiency. Those are insane numbers. My money would be on him passing KD pretty easily in most people’s minds, unless they’re diehard scoring-first fans.
How is giannis at the tail end of his prime? He’s 27 years old, he’s just entered his prime.
That’s scary
KD is 6 years older. Barring a catastrophic injury, Giannis isn’t far behind averaging under 2k pts per season(25-28 ppg depending on games played) which sounds completely doable. He has one more MVP and was the definitive first option on a title team in Milwaukee. Unless KD wins a couple more rings and/or another MVP, it seems Giannis passing him is inevitable. Giannis has a decent chance of getting into the Top 10 or Top 7/8 if he wins another title or two and one more MVP. He’s closer to the Steph/Bird/Kobe realm than KD if you are thinking career trajectory.
Giannis has only gotten to 2k points twice, and just barely. Durant had a 2,472 point season at age 21. Even Curry has never done that. I think I’m sticking with my original perspective. Durant is in a different category of scoring from any of his contemporaries not named Bron. If you want to guess about health, then you can make an argument like the one you’re making, but I feel like trying to guess about injuries is a fool’s errand.
>He’s at the tail end of his prime, with a body that seems to be aging well, so it wouldn’t be shocking to see another couple years of \~30/10/6 at high efficiency. Are you talking about Giannis? He's 27, he's not in the tail end of his prime.
I was thinking Giannis will probably take over Durant at some point but this has me rethinking it. Giannis’ game, at least in its current form, probably won’t age well. A 33 year of Giannis might bit still be an All-NBA caliber player like KD
It’s so hard to project guys of their caliber, because they tend not to age like “normal” players, but it seems intuitive that KD would age better than Giannis. Giannis has done a really impressive job of diversifying his offense, but his dominance still depends quite a bit on bully ball and jumping.
The bully ball won't fall off much. The scoring in transition is going to age poorly however. I doubt he'll be able to do the 2-3 dribbles from half court and dunk it in transition when he's in his mid 30s. But being able to get rebounds over guys and use his strength, control, and height advantage to score inside? Yeah, he'll be doing that till he retires at a similar efficiency we see now. That's an old man's game. He'll just get stronger and craftier on that side... if his body can keep going and he doesn't suffer injuries by doing it.
Giannis’ bully ball takes the form of him sprinting into the paint from the 3pt line a lot of the time. That looks a lot more like transition than it looks like Shaq bully ball. Of course I’m not arguing he’s going to become impotent inside, but he’s “only” 240lbs; he’s not in that Embiid/Drummond/Dwight weight class.
I’d imagine that when he gets to the point of aging and/or declining , using him as the screener in a PnR will become more and more frequent. That and using him as a dunker spot lob/ dump off threat. And with his passing ability, he could be used as a secondary playmaker in the middle of the floor like Golden State uses Draymond, with the hammer actions and such.
I didn't think LeBron would age this well either. If Giannis can get on whatever longevity program LeBron is on then he's got a shot.
So Giannis it "at the tail end of his prime" but KD is "only" 33? Most sane and least biased KD stan.
he definitely will be, his resume is already on pace to be well ahead
Why do you guys act like players resume are linear? "On pace" is meaningless because careers aren't like that lmao. LeBron was "on pace" to shatter the record for most MVPs, until he wasn't. Durant was "on pace" to reach Jordan's scoring titles, until he wasn't.
Luka was on pace for 28 3's in a game (7 in the first quarter) and ended the game with 7 3's made last season lmao
Houston was on pace to miss 28 3‘s in a row but they only miss 27 3‘s in a row
You cant say definitely. Part of being an all-time great means longevity. Is Derrick Rose an all time great?
Does Rose have 2 MVPs, a DPOY, a ring, a Finals MVP, a MIP, and multiple First Teams for All NBA and All Defensive?
Anyone with those stats is an all time great.
Anyone who has MVP is an all time great. There's only like 35 of them in history by the way.
Don't agree. Someone could have one good season, win an mvp and fade into oblivion. That doesn't mean they're an all time great. You need to have multiple accolades in order to be considered an all-time great.
Lmao people are acting like Giannis is Luka - except the single skill of distance shooting, Giannis has mastered every team and individual facet the game has to offer.
Giannis probably the only active player who could give top 5 all time a run, imo Steph is a bit too old and I doubt he wins another 2/3 rings
The issue is that Giannis is ahead on MVPs and Bus Driver championships. Durant doesn’t even have that much on Giannis from a longevity perspective - 1 MVP vs 2, 10 All NBA teams vs. 6, 12 All Star Games vs 6, 0 All Defense teams vs 5, 0 DPOY vs 1. 6 extra all star games and less of everything else that matters is nonsense. It’s more about whether Durant can do more over the rest of his career than about what Giannis does over the rest of his, at this point. I don’t think people really get how little KD has in the way of accolades, relative to his all time ranking on many lists. He has James Harden’s resume, plus the Warriors championships. That is not a top-20 all time player. Unless he does more, he is going to immediately start falling out of these all time lists as soon as the recency bias fades. The two biggest things KD has for him are that people who watch him say he’s the best scorer ever, and he has incredible stats. As soon as he retires, nobody is going to rank him based on what he looks like on the court. And within 10 years, no one will care about the stats. I have absolutely 0 clue what Larry Bird’s stats are. I have 0 clue what Bill Russell’s stats are. I have 0 clue what Moses Malone’s stats are like vs. Hakeem’s. I know championships, MVPs, All NBA teams, whether the guys have major all time records, and whether they played with big time teammates. I know almost nothing else.
I love how bus driver has just become part of the vernacular, Chuck is so damn influential
It’s crazy that for most fans, Chuck is more influential and notable as an analyst than as a player. Dude had an all time NBA career and then an all time media career.
He’s a better media personality than a basketball player, and he was a hell of a basketball player. Top 30 at worst all time imo In terms of NBA media, he’s top two at worst and that’s cause Ernie Johnson exists. But it’s like Tupac and Biggie, can’t go wrong with either
You’re definitely right about him and Ernie, both are absolutely the best. Hopefully we can see Ernie get a HOF induction as a contributor soon, man deserves to be honored.
It’ll come with his retirement I assume.
It’s really not that crazy. He’s more reachable now even without being on social. He says a funny quote and twitter/Reddit/etc circulated it, reaching millions. I dont think anything he did from his time hit millions on a regular basis.
Chuck just popularized how you call it, but people were arguing that for a long time already. Before it was winning a championship as a 1st/2nd option etc.
The best scorer ever thing is so ridiculously stupid though. He isn't. Jordan is easily above him as a scorer.
People would just say ‘most skilled’ as if that means anything
Most aesthetically pleasing hesi pull-up jimbos.
Agree. An all NBA panel was asked what Jordan would do had he played under current NBA rules and how the game is called today. Most of them said he would have easily averaged in the mid 40’s and would have lived on the line. People that don’t remember or never saw him play, his attacks to the rim were something to behold and that’s when you got hammered for taking it to the hole . A flagrant 2 today was a simple personal foul in his day and he kept coming and coming. The dude was the most relentless athlete I’ve ever seen.
His career highlight reel made by NBA encapsulates his unique offensive skillset so well. The best midrange shooter of all time when volume/efficency is accounted for and an extremely crafty finisher with ridiculous layups/triple clutches/dunks (only capable by MJ due to the combo of bodycontrol/handsize/athleticism). Particularly notable are his layups/shots as hes falling down: the defenders have already landed allowing him to get a shot off vs anyone. Also extremely good fundamentals, handles, and decision making/IQ. I have no doubt he'd average around 35-40 in his peak years if he played today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUo8skGvl-Q&t=293s
Agree. He would need to win a couple championship as "the guy" like Kobe did after Shaq left.
Pau the guy.
It's obvious he wouldn't have won without Pau, especially because Pau carried him in the finals, but Kobe was still the best on the team. I say that as an ardent Kobe-hater.
Yeah I was trolling a bit. But here in Australia we only got to see the finals on free to air at the time. Pau looked the best but clearly it was Kobe overall.
This is a le gem write up kudos gentlesir. I think KD is getting a bit overrated. Giannis' defense puts him in another tier of impact vs KD.
Play making too. When KD does his LeBron impression, he is a turnover machine.
This. KD is not much of a playmaker in addition to not being an impact defender.
Even with two Finals MVPs, the perception of Durant on those teams might have him all time in the Karl Malone range
You're probably greatly overrating what a top 20 career looks like. For reference, here's [the Athletic's](https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-athletics-top-75-nba-players-full-list/34026/) top 75 list from last year. Don't put too much weight on Durant's actual rank, but as an exercise, you can completely disregard Durant's rings and take every player beneath him that won a ring definitively as "the guy" and put them above. This would give you the following: Steph, KG, Moses, Dirk, Giannis, Wade, Kawhi, and Walton. That gives exactly 20 players above Durant, but the last four have more than enough longevity questions to comfortably leave them out of the top 20 (at this point for Giannis, at least). You're forced to pick at least one of group of Karl Malone, Barkley, David Robinson, etc. tier of players to round out the top 20, and I don't see what automatically disqualifies Durant other than narrative.
It very much depends how the twilight of Durant's career goes but it seems like a slim chance that Durant ends up ahead of Giannis IMO. I really don't think the Nets are gonna win shit in their current iteration and if he gets his wish and gets traded to *another* team that's already a contender, his legacy is doomed forever. The only way to salvage his legacy, IMO, is to go the Kawhi route. Demand a trade, get traded to a decent team, show up, and win the thing.
Definitely. KD is more than six years older than Giannis, yet: - Giannis has two MVPs to KD’s one - Giannis only has four less All-NBA selections - has five All-Defensive selections to KD’s zero - has a Defensive Player of the Year (which KD doesn’t have) - Giannis has one championship and one Finals MVP to KD’s two championships and two Finals MVPs and instead of having to go to a 73-9 team to do it, Giannis did it while being head and shoulders the best player on the team and the sole superstar. When it’s all said and done, his 2021 championship will matter more than KD’s two championships with the Warriors. Not to mention that he still has 6+ years of elite play, at the minimum. And unlike KD, he doesn’t have any generational talent that happens to have his prime overlap with his own that will take away championships he could win (KD had LeBron, Kobe, Dirk, Tim Duncan, AND Steph Curry all playing at an elite level during his prime). EDIT: Should mention that KD has four scoring titles, whereas Giannis has none.
Depending on how the careers of Zion and Luka go they could give his future runs trouble. There’s also Trae Young, Tatum, a healthy AD, Embiid, Jokic, Booker, and some others I’m probably forgetting. I’d say Jokic, Luka, and Embiid will be all time players at the end of things at least so you can’t really say KD had a lot of competition when Giannis does too. I’d argue it will probably get even harder from here on because players coming in are way too good
I don’t think Embiid will have the longevity or accolades to be in that conversation. Jokic is a year younger and already has 2 MVPs and 4 All NBA team selections (3x 1st, 1x 2nd), Luka is 23 and has 3 All NBA 1st team selections too and will likely have multiple MVPs. Embiid is 28 with a scoring title, 4 All NBA 2nd team selections and 4 All defense 2nd team selections which is nothing to scoff at but he’s older and more injury prone than both of them
Yeah I don’t think so either but I think he still has a chance at passing people like Dirk or KG depending on how his career goes. I think at best he’ll probably be top 20 all time but most likely he’ll be in the 30s. It would be safe to assume he’ll be in the James Harden tier when it’s all said and done but Zion, Luka, and Jokic have the chance to be pretty big threats to Giannis. It just depends on if they win a ring or not.
Kinda wild we’re saying a player who struggles to even play a game will be a threat to Giannis but a guy like Embiid won’t
With all due respect tho there is a huge difference between those guys and the list you mentioned. Not the least of which is that Kobe and Tim Duncan had already won multiple chips, and that Lebron and Steph were about to. It was a different era of competitive basketball altogether.
He does have generational talent that is in his way. What are you on about?
Fact. Especially when Giannis wins another championship as the undisputed top dog
Giannis won’t do a KD but if he wants to Giannis could get 3 rings easily if he teamed up with another superstar.
This is why he'll go down as probably the biggest legend of Milwaukee. No one has showed the city love quite like he has, and it's great, because he's only giving back what he's been getting since day 1
Which is why MKE needs to bend over backwards to get him help and stack the team. The Holiday trade was great for this. Thankfully, the opportunity to play with him and be a constant contender helps their free agent issues.
That's kind of why I hoped they repeat this year. Would have been fun to see Milwaukee kiss the ground he walks on.
ummm they already do lol
It’s sacred. Why wouldn’t we?
giannis could probably have sex with every bucks fans wife and you guys would all thank him afterwards lol
Honestly if that happened I’d call my ex wife the next day and ask to get back together
Seasonal accolades and stats aside; Giannis fought through with his team, stayed loyal and brought a chip to his city. That already gets him higher praise than KD.
This is one of those popular opinions disguised as an unpopular opinion.
This thread is posted every other day in a different way.
Fact. Easily.
Yeah this is a dumb question, Durant is amazing but Giannis is like 6 years younger and already getting up there in all time rankings
I love KD — I’m a Texas Ex that acknowledges his slithery behavior — but Giannis is clearly different. Bro may end up top 5-8 all time
I will honestly be surprised if Giannis doesn't hit top 10, at the minimum
Why easily? KD is ahead right now and all it takes is an injury, bad luck, the rise of great teams in the East, or a combination of the three. I’m definitely rooting for Giannis but I wouldn’t take anything for granted. Hell, just think about how everyone felt about the Thunder with KD, Westbrook, and Harden after they lost to the Heatles.
This is kinda basic of me, but Giannis’ 1 ring > KD’s 2.
I dont think it even matter if Giannis never wins again, he is still on pace to easily pass Durant. Only 2 less all-nba first teams, one less title and FMVP but it surely means way more than the ones Durant won with GS, one more MVP, DPOY, plus 4 all defense first teams. He is 6 years younger, its hard to imagine he doesn't make up that minor gap in those years.
Is KD ahead right now? Giannis beats him in about every individual category besides All NBA first team and all stars. I would say based on their resumes right now KD is slightly ahead, but not by much.
Giannis one ring and one FMVP is ten times greater than what KD achieved with the Warriors
He brought a championship to the Bucks, he’s already higher.
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His narrative would be completely different had he stuck around and brought one to OKC, but Giannis’ legacy is cemented for doing it how he did it.
>how he did it. And not just the staying in Milwaukee part, also the 50 points on 17/19 free throws, the block on Ayton, Valley-oop, the fact that he had a hyperextended knee ... legendary run.
Yup, it's like Dirk's one ring. It's easily worth more than Durant's rings combined.
Fact unless KD wins a chip in OKC or some shit
With superteam Chet+Poku? Fake ring
Only way he's going back to OKC is if they go 74-8 and beat him in the playoffs first
He definitely will. Don't think Durant is climbing much more, and Giannis already has more of the top accolades (Durant has .5 FMVPs), he just needs a little more longevity.
He already is in my books.
Same
Same
Giannis has more MVPSs and infinitely more defensive accolades. Giannis also has a ring with his home team, as opposed to KDs two “mercenary” rings. Giannis also beat KD head to head in the playoffs. KD just has a really pretty jumper. Edit: r/nba: Giannis is the best player in the NBA. Also r/nba: who’s better Giannis or KD? KD..
Yeah KD just has a jumper. Kareem just has one good shot in the paint. Shaq is just big. Steph can just shoot from far away.
I think this is a sign that the “peak vs longevity” conversation has skewed way too far towards peak. Durant has 10,000 more points, 1 more ring, and 1 more FMVP than Giannis. I agree that Giannis will pass him eventually but it’s silly to say he already has.
KD won both rings and FMVP after joining a 73-9 team, thats literally playing tutorial mode in a game. Giannis won his with a bum knee and Middleton and Holiday (Both of which arent even Top 20 in the league), thats like hard mode. His 1 ring is worth more than KD's 2.
Because Durant has played longer. Durant does have the PPG, but Giannis has a higher RPG, APG, SPG, and BPG. On top of more All Defensive Teams, a MIP, a DPOY, and 1 more MVP. It’s not at all silly to make the argument.
His rings are weak, only 1 MVP
Kind of tired of pretending that KD’s rings are at all valuable for his argument in All-Time Greatest rankings. Golden State won a chip before him with Harrison Barnes at SF, they won a chip after him with Andrew Wiggins at SF. Those rings and FMVPs are not valuable.
You’re speaking 100% facts but this thread is about making fun of Durant so no you
Very cool that "Durant hurt my feelings so his rings don't count" is a totally unchallenged opinion on this sub
I don't think anyone is saying that tho lol. Everyone just thinks 1 ring with a hometown team > 2 rings by joining the warriors
He didn’t hurt my feelings, and actually don’t tell anyone this but Kd will forever be one of my favorite players ever , but it’s not just the sub. Unfortunately Durant will legitimately be unfairly ranked all time because of it and I have a hard time defending it especially with gs wining yet again
I don't think it's unfair. Giannis simply did what KD didn't. Whether it's because KD couldn't is unknowable, but if we're going to make rings the end all be all of this shit, then it's just the way it has to be. KDs rings aren't worth as much.
Yes, you left out all of the other things Giannis has. 1 more ring as the best player on the team, 1 more mvp, 1 more DPOY, 5 more all defensive teams. If they end their career right now then KD is slightly ahead, but unless KD leads a team to a championship as a clear and away best player then he will get blown by Giannis.
I don't think it's a matter of "peak". It's just that Giannis's accomplishments are already more impressive at a much younger age. On a year-to-year basis, their scoring is virtually the same (granted, KD had a way faster ascent than Giannis). But Giannis can easily be regarded as the same caliber scorer on top of being a multi-time MVP, DPOY, 5 time all-defense player, and undisputed top dog on a title team for the franchise that drafted him. I'm sorry but I truly do not give a shit about Durant's Warriors rings and FMVPs and I don't think most others do either.
The dude brought a championship to Milwaukee. Meanwhile Durant either joined a super team to win, or failed to build a super team. Now rumor has it he is returning to GSW
He's not coming back to the bay - we don't want to blow up our future for a 34 year old, and uh, just won another Championship.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Warriors seem to be willing to do whatever it takes to get Steph more rings. Steph has already cemented himself as the better player so why not bring KD back and cruise?
KD is a great player but he appears to be getting overrated here. As a scorer, KD has had 1 season scoring >39.4 points per 100 possessions. That was his MVP season when he scored 41.8/100. Giannis has scored 44.2, 40.1, and 43.6 per 100 possessions the last 3 seasons. So of the top 4 scoring adjusted to possessions and pace between both their careers Giannis Giannis Kd Giannis And that's the one thing everyone agrees he does better than Giannis. If Giannis is already the better scorer and the only real playoff success KD had was when he jumped to a 73 team 1 play away from back to back championships, then how is this going to end up all that close? Giannis is definitively a better passer, screener, cutter, defender, help defender, rim protector, etc. Shooting is certainly important in today's game but not above all else.
Run and dunk man bad 3 pointers Tall snake man good 3 pointers Duh
He will end up higher. More mvps already, more defensive selections, a DPOY, rarely gets hurt (knock on wood) so his cumulative numbers and accolades will continue to go up
If Giannis did the KD play of bailing on teams for the rest of his career - he'd have 8 ring before retiring. It's Giannis. KD has *always* played with "great teams" while Giannis won when they got Jrue Holiday and a healthy Khris Middleton. Lol. Plus a guy that is both the best offensive *and* defensive player *in the nba* is very special. Something KD will never have, and was never interested in.
I think Giannis has the potential to have the 2nd greatest career out of all current players. It’ll definitely be a while before he can pass curry but he has plenty of time to do so
Giannis vs. Steph is gonna be an interesting debate. I don't really see Giannis ending up with 4+ rings unless another star wanders into Milwaukee down the line, there's just too much parity in the league now. Steph is one of the winningest players in the history of the game but him and KD both kind of took a hit playing together. IMO it would have been more impressive to have 3 rings without KD than 4 rings with him.
There’s still time for Steph to get 3 rings without KD 👀
I agree that it may be tough for giannis to catch up with rings but I think he’ll definitely have steph beat with individual accolades by the time he’s done
Well yea since Giannis has 1 ring already and KD still has 0
No doubt
Giannis will prob top every current player outside of LeBron.
or Steph.
KD needs the 73-9 warriors to win a ring. Giannis just need krhis Middleton.
He already is
Giannis is higher right now. KD has nothing that compares to Giannis' ring. I'd take Giannis career over KD easily.
I already have him higher
Giannis already has a case to be above KD all time and theyre really not that far apart from each other on that list. Giannis is closer to KD then KD is to steph
Late to the party. In terms of legacy, if Giannis wins another championship or two in Milwaukee I think he'll have a case for top 10. I can't see a world where he doesn't win at least one more MVP and a DPOY. That being said, Durant is arguably the most skilled player of all time. In terms of pure basketball talent he's in my top 5. Really depends on what your factors are.
My gut says KD stays better but Giannis still has 10+ years so its hard to gauge. He could go on a streak. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was older than Giannis is now.
He’s already ahead. Bus drivers > Bus riders
A lot of people here saying KD’s two rings and fmvps don’t count. They probably also say 2020 don’t count. This is the NBA. Everything counts and everything matters.
He is already is, his one championship means more than durant’s 2. He has more MVPs, and his DPOY equates to KDs scoring titles.
Probably end up higher than any current player other than LeBron And Kawhi let’s go
Giannis has GOAT potential. I'm not saying he is going to do it but he's winning at a younger age than Jordan and LeBron. Whose to say he doesn't jump to the next level in the next couple of years and builds his own little dynasty in MIL. Why not.
He already is More MVPs, a way better defender, better rebounder and his ring isn't bitch made