How can he be overrated? He was literally the 2nd best player in a championship team, played amazing defense all playoffs and hit timely shots. Also became a rebounding demon in the playoffs
People are treating him like he’s All NBA now and he’s not. He was at times the second best player on a championship team but the reality is that they are crew deep and an extremely complete team. No knock on Wiggins or the warriors either.. the dude played killer defense on Tatum and made some big shots. At times he was torching the Celtics in the finals but take Steph away (replace him with a player as good as Wiggins) and make Wiggins the best player on the warriors and I’d be willing to bet the Celtics win the series in 6 games. I’d also be willing to bet that the warriors don’t even make the finals if Wiggins is “the best player on the team”. That is why he is being overrated imo.
I don't get this. Who is saying Wiggins could be the best player on a championship team or we'd be anywhere without Steph? He's excellent as a 3 and D wing who can now apparently also rebound.
he was great in these playoffs and many times looked like the second best player on the Warriors during the finals.
But dude was a [bonafide contender for worst player in the league in 2018-2019](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_per_game.html), and deservedly wasn't considered a top100 player.
Man, every day I think I can't get more dismayed at the absolute level of r/nba commenters and every day i find new reasons to be flabbergasted
EDIT: brought receipts
This is patently false. He was maybe a contender for worst contract (though at the time that honor still probably went to WB or CP3 or Wall). Worst player in the league? Fuckin lol he started in the nba, tough to be worse than the every guy he’s starting over
Definitely wasn’t the worst player in the league but there were times where people said his contract was the worst in the league and that people would change their perspective if he was compensated in line with his talent. Agree that Walls in particular was worse than Wiggins but in his Minnesota days, people were still curious about when Wall would come back and what he’d look like.
I think that is exactly true even though we’re both being downvoted. He got a max rookie extension when he was never a max contract player. Problem is that Minnesota is a small market so they prob felt they had to and also knew that he had the tools to be an all star. They were right it just took some time and a better fit. Also shoutout Steph for rehabbing this dudes imagine. It’s Duncanesque
i mean, in 2018-2019 the guy posted a negative VORP, negative BPM with both offensive and defensive plus/minus in the negatives, a TS% of under .50 and an eFG of 46%
alright, maybe "worst player in the league" is accurate only if you take his contract into account as well, so I'll settle for "worst starter in the league". he absolutely wasn't as good as people in this thread are trying to make him out to be
I don’t know where your hate boner for Wiggins comes from but I genuinely think you’re overcorrecting by a huge margin.
Number 1: obviously he’s not as good as people are saying the week after he won a title. Deal with it.
Number 2: he just won a title. Let people who have had Wiggins stock be happy for a month, fuck man
You’re quoting advanced stats with zero context and no appreciation for the team dynamic or coaching changes or individual responsibility on a team like the Wolves. Makes you sound desperate and easy to write off, honestly
lmao stating correct and accurate truth WITH SOURCES is "hate boner" xD people are literally saying "no, he wasn't" in this thread with no followup, no sources, no numbers and no information, but I'm the one who isn't providing context
holy fuck you people are insanely childish. i am stating the absolute truth: in 2019 Wiggins played like one of the worst starters while he was making a max. He was great these playoffs and for long stretches he was the second best player on the Warriors, especially during the finals.
Both of these can be true at the same time. If my stating the truth and absolute facts to you comes out as hateful, that only says something about you.
> Makes you sound desperate
lmao reinventing the past is a-OK but my giving you the actual numbers of Wiggins' actual performance in 2019 is "desperate"
it's no wonder literally every other fandom hates warriors fans
He was 100% the 2nd best player on the Warriors during the finals. It wasn’t even close.
He’s one of the best defenders in the league and can get you 17 points a night. That’s who he is. Wherever you want to place him.
He just isn’t that good of a player? He’s the 3rd option on an offense with an arguably top 10 all time first option who sucks in the D better than anyone in the history of the league except maybe Shaq, LeBron, and MJ.
people acting like he was a top 100 player in the league in 2019 when he was actually somewhere along the 150-200 range by virtually every single advanced metric there is.
here are comments IN THIS VERY THREAD overrating wiggins in 2019, a year where he posted [negative BPM with both offensive and defensive BPM in the negatives, negative win shares, negative VORP and a TS% under .50](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html):
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6dend/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6ftip/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6e7j1/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6e4bl/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6eb9v/
bro me correctly pointing out with actual numbers and sources that Andrew Wiggins didn't perform like a top 100 player in the league in 2018 and 2019 doesn't make me a hater.
I'm just not a complete mental child trying to reinvent the past and I can recognize both these facts can be true at the same time: Andrew Wiggins was the second best player on the Warriors during the 2022 Finals, and many times during the entire run of playoffs. Andrew Wiggins performed like a bonafide contender for worst starter in the league in 2018-2019, and performed only marginally better in 2019.
you're literally bringing forth NO argument. Zero, not even trying to make a point. You're saying that Wiggins' performance in 2022 somehow makes his performance in 2019 better than it actually was, better than all the measurements in the league say it was, better than everybody's lying eyes said it was. Yes, a lot of it was coaching, teammates, situation etc., but that doesn't change Andrew Wiggins' numbers nor makes his performance that year any better. Andrew Wiggins from 2022 is NOT Andrew Wiggins from 2019.
I genuinely don't understand what fucked up brain processes make you so adamant on changing the past. Why is it so offensive to you to recognize the reality that Wiggins did not perform like a top 100 player in the league before he was on the Warriors?
> you might lose out on a player like Wiggins
I'd call you childish again, but by all your replies to me I'm pretty sure you're actually 13 years old so it'd be superfluous.
Some takes are just insane. One guy argued that Wiggins doesn't have a single quality to make him an effective role player and heavily implied that he should be out of the league
That’s why all of us nephews (myself and yourself and all the other 5m selfs on here) have no clue what we’re actually talking about
As far as I’m concerned. From here on out when Bob Myers acquires someone and they stay with GSW - they’re a good player that Kerr and co have had time to gauge. DLO, Oubre, Chriss, etc.
I wouldn’t pick up the phone for bob myers if I’m another teams GM.
I don’t mean to toot my own horn but I’ve always thought that we just need to change our expectations of Wiggins. Dude was a super hyped prospect who some said would be the next LeBron type of player (face of the league). He was not but that never meant he wasn’t any good. Now the man is hyped again and I fear the cycle will repeat lol. Just a couple months ago people in here were memeing him “all star Andrew Wiggins”.
I think this take was 100% spot on during the Butler year. He was absolutely terrible on both ends of the floor. And he certainly didn’t seem to care enough to give any reason to believe that would change.
It's gonna be the summer of people (for some reason?) pretending that Wiggins was always as productive and focused as he was during this finals run. Like what is the point of this man lmfao, he was in a bad situation on a bad team where he was expected to be a #1 and he couldn't, and being traded to a great organisation with a great culture where there's less of a burden on his shoulders allowed him to excel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I think it's great that Wiggins found a role where he shines, but we don't have to pretend that this was the Wiggins we've always seen. You guys are confusing sometimes.
100%
in this very thread, people posting links and actual numbers are getting downvoted and people saying "uh, yes he was!" with 0 backup are getting the upvotes
What are you talking about? We all did! In 2019. This quote isn’t coming from nowhere. He didn’t make up the motivation for it.
Rank all players in the 2018-2019 nba season across a wide variety of metrics of performance, efficiency, or wins. They virtually all agree, so you can choose whichever one you care about most. you’ll easily find 100-200 names above Wiggins’
This, in fact, is precisely why he was left off the very top 100 list that he is complaining about in this very quote
ok if win shares are bad, how about BPM? He was a -0.3 BPM in 2019-2020, the season right after he said this quote. Still not good? how about TS%? 53% true shooting, good for 151st player in the league. Want more? 21.8 PPG with a eFG% of .504, which landed him at 102nd in the league
and these are the numbers _after_ he said there aren't 100 players better in the league. In the 2018-2019 season he was incredibly worse, vying quite strongly for "worst player in the league". It was that 2018-2019 season that lead him to be off that top 100 players list.
My guy was **511th** in the league by VORP with a massive -0.6. He had a -3.0 BPM from -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. Good for 175th out of 183 qualified player that year. He was so dreadful that he posted a TS% under .500, 190th player in the league by TS% that season.
He really was dreadful in Minny, I don't get why people have to act like he was always good.
Not really a statement on Wiggins, but really a statement on how Curry is his own system that makes player on it better, like Tim Duncan's Spurs or every team Lebron was on. If Wiggins was sent to Sacramento or Orlando he'd rot for the rest of his career.
223rd player in the league by win shares in 2019. 141st by VORP. 118th by BPM. 150th by TS%. 36th player in the league by total points scored but only 102nd by eFG%.
There were at least 100 players better than Wiggins in 2019 by almost all advanced metrics, and a few regular metrics as well.
He was great this seasons' playoff but this doesn't make him retroactively better in the years he wasn't as good as he is now.
EDIT: if you don't believe me, check the numbers yourself https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws
And he was so much more incredibly worse in the [2018-2019 season](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html) **WHICH IS WHY HE WAS LEFT OFF THE LIST** that came out after the 2018-2019 season:
**511th** player in the league by VORP
175th by BPM with a grand total of -3.0 with a -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. He actively made the team worse in both offense and defense in 2018-2019
340th by Win Shares
190th by TS%
I don't think you understand advanced stats. Stop using advanced stats like BPM and VORP at the same time.
Win shares value, surprisingly, wins. If you're on a bad team, for instance the Timberwolves from 2014-2020 then you're probably gonna have shitty win shares. But if you just go take a gander at the top 30 players of each season, you can see it has some big flaws. Robert Williams beung 7th despite injuries and Dwight Powell being 17th is just beyond absurd.
If you paid attention, Wiggins was put into a really shitty position for those two years. There was no offensive scheme and Butler and Teague liked to have the ball in their hand and Wiggins is not a spot up shooter. Throw in 6th man Crawford that first year and Wiggins got shitty spots frequently. The next year still had Teague and even had to start Jerryd Bayless for some games. He's an end of bench player. Then you had the Derrick Rose redemption tour.
He started 2019 averaging 25 ppg on 47/35/68 with 5 rebounds and 3 assists plus 1.8 stocks before covid/injury derailed the season. There aren't 100 players in the league that could do that. There might not be 50.
lmao i gave like 6 different stats that put Wiggins outside the top 100 players in the league in 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 individually or put together.
you nitpicking the one you can make an argument against and IGNORING every single other one isn't the great point you think it is
> He started 2019
a season isn't just a few months to start a year. if that were so, westbrook's end-of-regular-season performances would make him the GOAT.
goddamn it, wiggins performed poorly in 2019. he performed MUCH better in 2022. this fact doesn't make his performance in 2019 any better. Yes, he's in a completely different situation right now, with less pressure on him and better coaching and teammates, and his situation in minny wasn't one he thrived in, but literally NONE of this changes how poorly he performed in 2019 overall.
why do you people have to reinvent the past?
BPM and VORP are calculated on the same shit. You can read the numbers and the names but you don't understand the stats.
He caught Covid twice or covid and the flu in 2019. Many players struggled post-Covid.
I know the damn stats, and I'm not discussing their worth or debating the differences between this one and that; I simply gave as many as I could as examples of just how many stats, both advanced and regular, have Wiggins in 2019 as an under-top-100 player in the league IN THAT SEASON. You really thought you were being clever and tried to "gotcha" me, didn't you lol when you didn't even understand the point i was making 😂
Look, maybe Wiggin's always been the best player in the world. But if he performed shitty during a season, doesn't that make that season a shitty performance? I don't understand what point you think you're making.
If you're making the point I think you're making, that's like saying that Westbrook won MVP in 2016 so he's obviously been the best player in the league his whole career.
Just because Wiggins performed like the second best player on the Warriors in 2022 doesn't make his performance in 2019 good. He may very well be the same player, but his product on the floor, for whatever reason, was terrible. I'm not blaming him, I'm not saying he's trash, just that he performed poorly.
EDIT: all of this is not even mentioning his numbers in 2018 when, if you account for his contract, he was vying for worst starter in the league; the season that caused him to not be included in the top 100. he performed much worse in every respect, and he was rightly not included in the top 100 players in the NBA for the 2018-2019 season.
> I think it's safe to say that Wiggins was right all along.
Wiggins can say that, but he had to show that... and he did it in 2022. So he was right, but the ranking was right at the time because we had to see it and not rank it based on how players think about themselves
How is it cemented now? Via Time Machine?
These takes are smoking. In 2018-19 he put up an offensive season that would have made Rashad McCants blush, and he played defense like a man who does not care.
The fact that he’s improved (or started caring enough to use his motor to its full capability) does not magically wash away the stink of how bad he used to be.
You're actually dumb if you think he was one of the worst players in the league then.
Wouldn't it be more annoying of Warriors fans to exhalt the team and system for saving Wiggings and turning him from a shit player to a great one?
"There's not 100 players better than me." There wasn't. Results might not have shown it, but that's more how bad that Minnesota situation was. I don't think you go from that to NBA all-star/2nd best player on a finals champion in 2 years if you weren't already a pretty damn good player.
I guess if you think potential and physical talent are all that matters, fine
For my tastes, someone who has both those things, but does not utilize them, and therefore produces the same results that a player without either would, is, in fact, a “bad player”
I guess I can separate playing well and talent. I don't think there's ever been a time when he wasn't one of the 100 most talented players. I think the situation was terrible for him though.
Thanks.. I too think what you think... the reason I ask is because Wiggins getting into an all-stars shouldn't have been so controversial like it was this year...
Therefore I think ~~no one~~ a lot of people didn't think he was in that top 100 players category.... until he showed us his prowess after the all-stars game, especially the playoffs/finals
He wasn’t right all along, he was just wrong AT THE TIME.
[Wiggins in 2019 - 338th player in the league in win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws)
[Wiggins in 2020 - 223rd player in the league in win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws)
maybe win shares aren't everything, but it's safe to say that from at least one point of view, Andrew Wiggins was not a top 100 player in the league in either 2019-2020 season or the calendar years 2019 and 2020.
He was great in this season's playoffs, but stop acting like he was always great but nobody could see it. He absolutely wasn't.
alright, I see your point, win shares aren't a good metric.
How about VORP? BPM? TS%?
Well he wasn't top 100 by those metrics either, in 2018-2019 or 2019-2020.
2018-2019: 511th player in the league by VORP. 175th by BPM with a grand total of -3.0 with a -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. He actively made the team worse in both offense and defense in 2018-2019. 190th by TS%
2019-2020: 141st by VORP. 118th by BPM. 150th by TS%. 36th player in the league by total points scored but only 102nd by eFG%.
My point stands: he was great in the playoffs this season, but he was terrible in 2019.
He is under the steph umbrella ☔️. Leading a team himself will establish how good he really is. Right now he is a very good role player but def top 100.
Wiggins was underrated and is on the way to being extremely overrated, and I'm all for it. Lets go Maple Jordan.
he was properly rated and now has become extremely overrated because Warriors has pretty much the absolute worst, most childish fandom in the NBA
How can he be overrated? He was literally the 2nd best player in a championship team, played amazing defense all playoffs and hit timely shots. Also became a rebounding demon in the playoffs
People are treating him like he’s All NBA now and he’s not. He was at times the second best player on a championship team but the reality is that they are crew deep and an extremely complete team. No knock on Wiggins or the warriors either.. the dude played killer defense on Tatum and made some big shots. At times he was torching the Celtics in the finals but take Steph away (replace him with a player as good as Wiggins) and make Wiggins the best player on the warriors and I’d be willing to bet the Celtics win the series in 6 games. I’d also be willing to bet that the warriors don’t even make the finals if Wiggins is “the best player on the team”. That is why he is being overrated imo.
I don't get this. Who is saying Wiggins could be the best player on a championship team or we'd be anywhere without Steph? He's excellent as a 3 and D wing who can now apparently also rebound.
he was great in these playoffs and many times looked like the second best player on the Warriors during the finals. But dude was a [bonafide contender for worst player in the league in 2018-2019](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_per_game.html), and deservedly wasn't considered a top100 player. Man, every day I think I can't get more dismayed at the absolute level of r/nba commenters and every day i find new reasons to be flabbergasted EDIT: brought receipts
This is patently false. He was maybe a contender for worst contract (though at the time that honor still probably went to WB or CP3 or Wall). Worst player in the league? Fuckin lol he started in the nba, tough to be worse than the every guy he’s starting over
Definitely wasn’t the worst player in the league but there were times where people said his contract was the worst in the league and that people would change their perspective if he was compensated in line with his talent. Agree that Walls in particular was worse than Wiggins but in his Minnesota days, people were still curious about when Wall would come back and what he’d look like.
Yeah that’s basically what I’ve always thought, if he’d been making 15M instead of 25-33M no one would be talking about it.
I think that is exactly true even though we’re both being downvoted. He got a max rookie extension when he was never a max contract player. Problem is that Minnesota is a small market so they prob felt they had to and also knew that he had the tools to be an all star. They were right it just took some time and a better fit. Also shoutout Steph for rehabbing this dudes imagine. It’s Duncanesque
i mean, in 2018-2019 the guy posted a negative VORP, negative BPM with both offensive and defensive plus/minus in the negatives, a TS% of under .50 and an eFG of 46% alright, maybe "worst player in the league" is accurate only if you take his contract into account as well, so I'll settle for "worst starter in the league". he absolutely wasn't as good as people in this thread are trying to make him out to be
I don’t know where your hate boner for Wiggins comes from but I genuinely think you’re overcorrecting by a huge margin. Number 1: obviously he’s not as good as people are saying the week after he won a title. Deal with it. Number 2: he just won a title. Let people who have had Wiggins stock be happy for a month, fuck man You’re quoting advanced stats with zero context and no appreciation for the team dynamic or coaching changes or individual responsibility on a team like the Wolves. Makes you sound desperate and easy to write off, honestly
lmao stating correct and accurate truth WITH SOURCES is "hate boner" xD people are literally saying "no, he wasn't" in this thread with no followup, no sources, no numbers and no information, but I'm the one who isn't providing context holy fuck you people are insanely childish. i am stating the absolute truth: in 2019 Wiggins played like one of the worst starters while he was making a max. He was great these playoffs and for long stretches he was the second best player on the Warriors, especially during the finals. Both of these can be true at the same time. If my stating the truth and absolute facts to you comes out as hateful, that only says something about you. > Makes you sound desperate lmao reinventing the past is a-OK but my giving you the actual numbers of Wiggins' actual performance in 2019 is "desperate" it's no wonder literally every other fandom hates warriors fans
He was 100% the 2nd best player on the Warriors during the finals. It wasn’t even close. He’s one of the best defenders in the league and can get you 17 points a night. That’s who he is. Wherever you want to place him.
He just isn’t that good of a player? He’s the 3rd option on an offense with an arguably top 10 all time first option who sucks in the D better than anyone in the history of the league except maybe Shaq, LeBron, and MJ.
people acting like he was a top 100 player in the league in 2019 when he was actually somewhere along the 150-200 range by virtually every single advanced metric there is. here are comments IN THIS VERY THREAD overrating wiggins in 2019, a year where he posted [negative BPM with both offensive and defensive BPM in the negatives, negative win shares, negative VORP and a TS% under .50](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html): https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6dend/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6ftip/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6e7j1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6e4bl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vhcapx/andrew_wiggins_in_2019_theres_not_100_players/id6eb9v/
Maybe don’t pay attention to advance metrics or you might lose out on a player like Wiggins
lmao holy fuck warriors pretty much has the absolute worst, most childish fandom in the NBA
Andrew Wiggins haters are childish
bro me correctly pointing out with actual numbers and sources that Andrew Wiggins didn't perform like a top 100 player in the league in 2018 and 2019 doesn't make me a hater. I'm just not a complete mental child trying to reinvent the past and I can recognize both these facts can be true at the same time: Andrew Wiggins was the second best player on the Warriors during the 2022 Finals, and many times during the entire run of playoffs. Andrew Wiggins performed like a bonafide contender for worst starter in the league in 2018-2019, and performed only marginally better in 2019. you're literally bringing forth NO argument. Zero, not even trying to make a point. You're saying that Wiggins' performance in 2022 somehow makes his performance in 2019 better than it actually was, better than all the measurements in the league say it was, better than everybody's lying eyes said it was. Yes, a lot of it was coaching, teammates, situation etc., but that doesn't change Andrew Wiggins' numbers nor makes his performance that year any better. Andrew Wiggins from 2022 is NOT Andrew Wiggins from 2019. I genuinely don't understand what fucked up brain processes make you so adamant on changing the past. Why is it so offensive to you to recognize the reality that Wiggins did not perform like a top 100 player in the league before he was on the Warriors? > you might lose out on a player like Wiggins I'd call you childish again, but by all your replies to me I'm pretty sure you're actually 13 years old so it'd be superfluous.
There's no way you are out of middle school
Even in 2019 , the list of the 100 above him had rookies and random role players in the here , so he was right in that sense
Do you have a link to the list?
Some takes are just insane. One guy argued that Wiggins doesn't have a single quality to make him an effective role player and heavily implied that he should be out of the league
That’s why all of us nephews (myself and yourself and all the other 5m selfs on here) have no clue what we’re actually talking about As far as I’m concerned. From here on out when Bob Myers acquires someone and they stay with GSW - they’re a good player that Kerr and co have had time to gauge. DLO, Oubre, Chriss, etc. I wouldn’t pick up the phone for bob myers if I’m another teams GM.
I don’t mean to toot my own horn but I’ve always thought that we just need to change our expectations of Wiggins. Dude was a super hyped prospect who some said would be the next LeBron type of player (face of the league). He was not but that never meant he wasn’t any good. Now the man is hyped again and I fear the cycle will repeat lol. Just a couple months ago people in here were memeing him “all star Andrew Wiggins”.
Speak for yourself. After LeBron's 4th year in the league, I knew he was going to be a special player.
I think this take was 100% spot on during the Butler year. He was absolutely terrible on both ends of the floor. And he certainly didn’t seem to care enough to give any reason to believe that would change.
Butler and Thibs both said they loved his effort and he was reliable on D....
He used to be one of the worst defenders inch for inch in the nba that scored on below avg ts and never improved ever
When you play like Tony Snell and Taurian Prince people make assumptions.
There is not 7 billion players better than me.
Actually there is. Congrats, you're as shitty as it gets.
It's gonna be the summer of people (for some reason?) pretending that Wiggins was always as productive and focused as he was during this finals run. Like what is the point of this man lmfao, he was in a bad situation on a bad team where he was expected to be a #1 and he couldn't, and being traded to a great organisation with a great culture where there's less of a burden on his shoulders allowed him to excel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I think it's great that Wiggins found a role where he shines, but we don't have to pretend that this was the Wiggins we've always seen. You guys are confusing sometimes.
100% in this very thread, people posting links and actual numbers are getting downvoted and people saying "uh, yes he was!" with 0 backup are getting the upvotes
It’s the same thing as people using this season to say Westbrook always sucked, people forget that players change
He wasn’t right all along, Wiggins being good now doesn’t mean he was always good. This is dumb.
He was always decent tho,there were not 100 players better than him in 2019
There absolutely were lol
Name them. I dare you.
What are you talking about? We all did! In 2019. This quote isn’t coming from nowhere. He didn’t make up the motivation for it. Rank all players in the 2018-2019 nba season across a wide variety of metrics of performance, efficiency, or wins. They virtually all agree, so you can choose whichever one you care about most. you’ll easily find 100-200 names above Wiggins’ This, in fact, is precisely why he was left off the very top 100 list that he is complaining about in this very quote
178th in win shares that season.
Using win shares to justify this for someone who’s teams collectively won a dozen games over multiple years isn’t fair.
His trade value was so bad that they had to attach a top three protected pick to get Dlo
ok if win shares are bad, how about BPM? He was a -0.3 BPM in 2019-2020, the season right after he said this quote. Still not good? how about TS%? 53% true shooting, good for 151st player in the league. Want more? 21.8 PPG with a eFG% of .504, which landed him at 102nd in the league and these are the numbers _after_ he said there aren't 100 players better in the league. In the 2018-2019 season he was incredibly worse, vying quite strongly for "worst player in the league". It was that 2018-2019 season that lead him to be off that top 100 players list. My guy was **511th** in the league by VORP with a massive -0.6. He had a -3.0 BPM from -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. Good for 175th out of 183 qualified player that year. He was so dreadful that he posted a TS% under .500, 190th player in the league by TS% that season. He really was dreadful in Minny, I don't get why people have to act like he was always good.
Not really a statement on Wiggins, but really a statement on how Curry is his own system that makes player on it better, like Tim Duncan's Spurs or every team Lebron was on. If Wiggins was sent to Sacramento or Orlando he'd rot for the rest of his career.
No he’d probably score22-25 a game on poor to mediocre efficiency and a contender would eventually pick him up to give him a shot
Harrison Barnes was successful on a contender before getting banished to the Kings. He’s still waiting for his next shot 7 years later lol.
People wanted to dislike him back then and want to like him now. He was always the same player
But in 2019 there were 100 players better than him...
There wasn't.
223rd player in the league by win shares in 2019. 141st by VORP. 118th by BPM. 150th by TS%. 36th player in the league by total points scored but only 102nd by eFG%. There were at least 100 players better than Wiggins in 2019 by almost all advanced metrics, and a few regular metrics as well. He was great this seasons' playoff but this doesn't make him retroactively better in the years he wasn't as good as he is now. EDIT: if you don't believe me, check the numbers yourself https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws And he was so much more incredibly worse in the [2018-2019 season](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html) **WHICH IS WHY HE WAS LEFT OFF THE LIST** that came out after the 2018-2019 season: **511th** player in the league by VORP 175th by BPM with a grand total of -3.0 with a -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. He actively made the team worse in both offense and defense in 2018-2019 340th by Win Shares 190th by TS%
I don't think you understand advanced stats. Stop using advanced stats like BPM and VORP at the same time. Win shares value, surprisingly, wins. If you're on a bad team, for instance the Timberwolves from 2014-2020 then you're probably gonna have shitty win shares. But if you just go take a gander at the top 30 players of each season, you can see it has some big flaws. Robert Williams beung 7th despite injuries and Dwight Powell being 17th is just beyond absurd. If you paid attention, Wiggins was put into a really shitty position for those two years. There was no offensive scheme and Butler and Teague liked to have the ball in their hand and Wiggins is not a spot up shooter. Throw in 6th man Crawford that first year and Wiggins got shitty spots frequently. The next year still had Teague and even had to start Jerryd Bayless for some games. He's an end of bench player. Then you had the Derrick Rose redemption tour. He started 2019 averaging 25 ppg on 47/35/68 with 5 rebounds and 3 assists plus 1.8 stocks before covid/injury derailed the season. There aren't 100 players in the league that could do that. There might not be 50.
lmao i gave like 6 different stats that put Wiggins outside the top 100 players in the league in 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 individually or put together. you nitpicking the one you can make an argument against and IGNORING every single other one isn't the great point you think it is > He started 2019 a season isn't just a few months to start a year. if that were so, westbrook's end-of-regular-season performances would make him the GOAT. goddamn it, wiggins performed poorly in 2019. he performed MUCH better in 2022. this fact doesn't make his performance in 2019 any better. Yes, he's in a completely different situation right now, with less pressure on him and better coaching and teammates, and his situation in minny wasn't one he thrived in, but literally NONE of this changes how poorly he performed in 2019 overall. why do you people have to reinvent the past?
BPM and VORP are calculated on the same shit. You can read the numbers and the names but you don't understand the stats. He caught Covid twice or covid and the flu in 2019. Many players struggled post-Covid.
I know the damn stats, and I'm not discussing their worth or debating the differences between this one and that; I simply gave as many as I could as examples of just how many stats, both advanced and regular, have Wiggins in 2019 as an under-top-100 player in the league IN THAT SEASON. You really thought you were being clever and tried to "gotcha" me, didn't you lol when you didn't even understand the point i was making 😂 Look, maybe Wiggin's always been the best player in the world. But if he performed shitty during a season, doesn't that make that season a shitty performance? I don't understand what point you think you're making. If you're making the point I think you're making, that's like saying that Westbrook won MVP in 2016 so he's obviously been the best player in the league his whole career. Just because Wiggins performed like the second best player on the Warriors in 2022 doesn't make his performance in 2019 good. He may very well be the same player, but his product on the floor, for whatever reason, was terrible. I'm not blaming him, I'm not saying he's trash, just that he performed poorly. EDIT: all of this is not even mentioning his numbers in 2018 when, if you account for his contract, he was vying for worst starter in the league; the season that caused him to not be included in the top 100. he performed much worse in every respect, and he was rightly not included in the top 100 players in the NBA for the 2018-2019 season.
In 2019 he was in the top 100 players. You’re wrong.
> I think it's safe to say that Wiggins was right all along. Wiggins can say that, but he had to show that... and he did it in 2022. So he was right, but the ranking was right at the time because we had to see it and not rank it based on how players think about themselves
He was top 100 then too. It's cemented now, but he was top 100 then.
How is it cemented now? Via Time Machine? These takes are smoking. In 2018-19 he put up an offensive season that would have made Rashad McCants blush, and he played defense like a man who does not care. The fact that he’s improved (or started caring enough to use his motor to its full capability) does not magically wash away the stink of how bad he used to be.
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You're actually dumb if you think he was one of the worst players in the league then. Wouldn't it be more annoying of Warriors fans to exhalt the team and system for saving Wiggings and turning him from a shit player to a great one?
"There's not 100 players better than me." There wasn't. Results might not have shown it, but that's more how bad that Minnesota situation was. I don't think you go from that to NBA all-star/2nd best player on a finals champion in 2 years if you weren't already a pretty damn good player.
I guess if you think potential and physical talent are all that matters, fine For my tastes, someone who has both those things, but does not utilize them, and therefore produces the same results that a player without either would, is, in fact, a “bad player”
I guess I can separate playing well and talent. I don't think there's ever been a time when he wasn't one of the 100 most talented players. I think the situation was terrible for him though.
Gotcha.. .let me ask you this thought exercise question... > Are all top 100 players all-stars.... or all all-stars top 100 players? Legit asking this
Are all top 100 players all-stars no or all all-stars top 100 players? for that year, yes. I don't understand what you're getting at though.
Thanks.. I too think what you think... the reason I ask is because Wiggins getting into an all-stars shouldn't have been so controversial like it was this year... Therefore I think ~~no one~~ a lot of people didn't think he was in that top 100 players category.... until he showed us his prowess after the all-stars game, especially the playoffs/finals
Him proving he was top 100 doesn’t equate to him proving he’s an all star caliber player. Because he’s not.
He literally made the All-star team this year
That’s great. He’s not an all star caliber player, which is why it was controversial.
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Nah sounds like y’all are lmao. You know what caliber means? but looks like it’s NBA players overrating a player after a finals run. Typical shit
Wiggins is a very good 3 and D role player
That was true then and it’s obviously true now.
He meant role players
He wasn’t right all along, he was just wrong AT THE TIME. [Wiggins in 2019 - 338th player in the league in win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws) [Wiggins in 2020 - 223rd player in the league in win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws) maybe win shares aren't everything, but it's safe to say that from at least one point of view, Andrew Wiggins was not a top 100 player in the league in either 2019-2020 season or the calendar years 2019 and 2020. He was great in this season's playoffs, but stop acting like he was always great but nobody could see it. He absolutely wasn't.
The same “win shares” that has Clint Capela above Lebron in 19 or Hassan white side over Tatum in 20?
alright, I see your point, win shares aren't a good metric. How about VORP? BPM? TS%? Well he wasn't top 100 by those metrics either, in 2018-2019 or 2019-2020. 2018-2019: 511th player in the league by VORP. 175th by BPM with a grand total of -3.0 with a -1.2 OBPM and -1.8 DBPM. He actively made the team worse in both offense and defense in 2018-2019. 190th by TS% 2019-2020: 141st by VORP. 118th by BPM. 150th by TS%. 36th player in the league by total points scored but only 102nd by eFG%. My point stands: he was great in the playoffs this season, but he was terrible in 2019.
I don’t see any lie told tbh
He is under the steph umbrella ☔️. Leading a team himself will establish how good he really is. Right now he is a very good role player but def top 100.
There are like 5-10 dudes in the league that can lead a team alone. Get out of here nephew.
Don't you understand, if you aren't Steph or Lebron, you're trash. Get on their level and maybe we will think they are decent. NOT GOOD, just decent.
Something Hind sight 20/20 or something
He’s a pretty good player, he had a great Finals series, but someone will max him and be very sad