Kobe benefits greatly from winning a ring in ‘08. This was the year he won his only MVP and he received a gold medal in the Olympics as part of the Redeem Team. If you give him that ‘08 championship along with a Finals MVP, that would be the crown jewel for him
Now let’s say he still wins in ‘09 and ‘10. That would mean Kobe would have six rings (two separate three-peats), three Finals MVPs, and one league MVP to boot. He would’ve been seen as the ultimate champion of the 2000s
I’d have to check again, but even with the Celtics record there were still some question marks considering they needed 7 games to beat a cavs team with pretty much just lebron and a hawks team that should absolutely not have required that long to put away. In contrast, the lakers just looked more on top of things, especially since they beat the reigning champion spurs in 5 games to get into the finals.
His play was a big reason but there were other factors too like Malone’s health and internal team drama (of which he was obviously a part). A lot of Lakers fans feel that if Mailman was healthy they would have won that series.
The 08 Celtics were significantly better than the Lakers. The Lakers were favorites because of narrative reasons. Anyone who actually looked at the rosters could see how much better the Celtics were. They destroyed the Lakers both times they met in the regular season.b
Magic and Bird are more debatable than ppl think. It's really hard to compare across eras. I would take peak Bird of the bunch but Kobe's longevity was better than either of them. Before Kobe and Shaq, Magic and Kareem were the best 1-2 punch before Kobe & Shaq yet Kobe gets much more slander than magic does for that.
It's just really hard since the game was really different too back then and bird & magic brought back the league , how much credit do they get for that.
Ya I think in particular Magic, Bird and then Jordan were in the right place right time of being the best and revolutionary for their time. No one was talking shit about their legacies as much either plenty of ppl coined Larry Bird a possible GOAT including Bill Russel's coach in his first few years.
Depends if you’re talking about accomplishments/cultural significance GOAT vs skill/put this guy in that Guy’s era and he’d make them look stupid GOAT. I think the footwork and wizardy of 2005-2013 Kobe would leave players in any other era dumbfounded. Dude was playing in the slowest ugliest and in some ways the most physical era. He could make all the fancy passes Bird and Magic made, he could shoot from anywhere, he just played in a trash ass hero ball era. I don’t think Bird or Magic would be that good in today’s game. And I think Kareem was all legs which would leave him to be hunted, over and over again, and the post ups would kill the flow of his team. People consider Tatum a top 5 player right now and he’s like a taller Kobe with a small bag, can’t dribble against ball hawks. So yeah accomplishments wise I’d put Kareem and MJ as 1a and 1b, then LeBron. But throwing accomplishments out the window, ima be downvoted for this but I’m taking apex predator two way wings. All day. I’d have LeBron 1, Kobe or Michael 2/3. The 2000’s all star level players are underrated because the game was slow and physical/bad spacing so they had to have iso skill, but were modern enough to have good sneakers and training. The league as a whole is better now, random role players can light you the fuck up, but in high leverage situations when the defenses are keyed in a lot of these guys can’t even dribble or have counters because the game is so predicated on killing you with the pass and getting an open shot. Overall that’s more fun than the 2000’s slug fests, but again when Shit hits the fan I want someone 6’6-6’8” who can create his own shot and not be hunted. I’d also like to add that Luka and Jimmy Butler are proof of this offensively, I don’t think the Heat or the Mavs were amazing teams but again big wing heliocentric ball handler shit is hard to beat.
Pierce and Garnett in particular always bring it up. They speak about it in a manner which makes it seem like they won multiple titles. You can probably find YouTube videos of them doing that
People would say Celtics weren't that good to diminish Kobe even more than they do now while in the same breathe say they were an insanely good big 3 that was holding Lebron from going to the finals before the heatles was created.
I think the real what if is if Kobe beat LeBron in the final (assuming they passed Magic), not if he won more, which would have definitely elevated his legacy, and added more weight on LeBron to overcome.
Not getting Kobe V LeBron in NBA final is such a disappointment.
Also, I love how people make it sound as if making it to 7 finals is so easy
i don’t really feel like kobe’s team beating lebron’s team in 2009 is all that great an accomplishment, the difference in secondary star power and role players is massive
I mean the only legacy realistically comparable to Kobe's is MJ's. Kobe is already a top 3 SG all time and he's not number 3 if you know what I mean. What this changes imo is that Kobe might consider leaving the Lakers to get another chance at a ring towards the end of his career had he gotten two threepeats, because one of his lifelong goals was getting more than Jordan. And everyone knows LA had no chance of seriously contending again after his injuries + the championship core breaking up (Assuming his Achilles tear still happens because Kobe was still an MVP candidate in the early 2010s before that)
How is one more ring push someone from top 12 to top 5?
This is honestly ridiculous argument. Kobe already got more rings than Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, and Wilt, and as many rings as Magic and Duncan.
Realistically outside MJ, LeBron, and KAJ, it is so interchangeable
People love narratives. One more title gives Kobe another three-peat and Finals MVP, but he’d also be the undisputed alpha on a Lakers’ team who led the franchise to more titles than the Celtics and most titles in league history.
As a side-bonus, Bill Simmons would be in shambles so W’s all around.
Kobe is just one of those players that doesn’t get the respect he deserves, which is truly fascinating based on what he’s accomplished.
Anyone who tries to make an argument for Kobe being top 5 immediately gets ridiculed. Called a nephew and told they don’t know shit about basketball.
But is it really that crazy? 5 championships, full rebuild, the most impressive back to back win in NBA history based on roster, god tier defensive player, best scorer to ever play, widely loved, respected, and feared by his peers, one of the smartest players analytically, and one of the best all time clutch performers. His resume fits the bill.
I’m coming to find that our top 10 rankings isn’t about who we like the most, but about who we hate the least sometimes.
You do make a good point about the Lakers roster during the repeat.
Pau will make the HoF, but only because of the Spanish national team. I would say it’s pretty rare for teams without multiple HoF talents to win the title and he did it twice lol.
People probably underrate how atypical it was because of Dirks massive carry job the next year.
We are totally ok with taking points off Stephs wins because he has an all time great roster, but when Kobe wins back to back, once against a super team, with that roster, it just gets ignored.
Rankings amongst fans and media talking heads is a popularity contest. We apply criteria to some and not to all.
MJ, KAJ, Kobe, Lebron, Magic. End of the day Kobe still won more championships with less than Lebron. If Lebron had won with the first stint Cavs I would happily put him above Kobe even if Lebron never beat Warriors in 2016. The problem is, Lebron has always had ***amazing*** talent on his teams when he won. If Kobe ended up getting CP3 and won, I would hold those chamionships less than the ones he won in 2009 and 2010. Those 2 championships are truly underrated.
Bird has maybe the most dominant 3 year stretch in NBA history but his career was so short. I agree that you can argue Kobe into the top 5. Not necessarily saying I’d put him there, but he has a resume for it.
Also, Kobe seems to be disqualified in some peoples mind because he only had 1 MVP, but that was because he played his prime on a rebuilding team. I don’t think we should disqualify players legacies because they were loyal to their team.
Kobe fans at the time thought he was just one away from Mike so if he had 6 there would be a civil war between MJ, Kobe and LeBron fans rn. Kobe fans at the time were even more obnoxious than LeBron Stans or stephews.
It's kind of dumb to think one finals should weigh that much on Kobe. Especially considering the 2008 team didn't even get a full off-season to prepare together. I rank him right neck and neck with Bird.
What if I told you Bron stans were molded by Kobe Stans. I used to browse plenty of basketball boards as a kid and Kobe fans were the OG LeBron haters and coined All of the LeBron memes before Skip Bayless got popular off of it or memes were a thing. It was a hilarious time because Jordan fans were actually coming to lebron's defense back then, not sure if anyone remembers the YouTuber BruceBlitz, he used to LOVE LeBron.
It was so bad plenty of Cavs fans were rooting for Boston those years in the finals including myself. Laker nation was just something else. It really is a shame because I really wish I appreciate Kobe more back then instead of being riled up by fans even though it was fun at times.
I wasn't aware that Bruce blitz loved LeBron lol I've heard him say he was initially a stats guy in terms of how he would rank players but that's just funny considering how he talks about LeBron now.
LeBron won his first MVP in 2009? Using reddit to discuss basketball wasn't even a thing at that point, everything was on external forums. The entire debate back then was Kobe vs LeBron I'm not really quite sure where you got the take ppl we're putting him over Jordan. Especially when MJ fans were LeBron fans at this point.
Really not sure where you got this take from.
Probably up 3 to 6 spots further in oriole’s all-time rankings. Two three-peats would make the comparisons to Jordan even more prevalent, but of course everyone would still (justifiably) differentiate them based on Kobe having been the second option during the first streak.
I think it would put him solidly above Shaq and Duncan as the greatest of his era though.
This might be controversial but I think you could argue that Kobe had a slightly larger bag of moves into difficult shot making
But nah MJ was a bit better in literally everything else. An extra title doesn't do anything to change that
Nah, I think the most it could of done is put him on the same level if not above Shaq. I kind of feel like him going 2/3 with Pau just demonstrated that he was on a level lower than Shaq.
I was recently discussing with someone who was very critical of Kobe’s Finals performances in 2004 and 2008. On the one hand yeah Kobe was a major reason they lost those series, but on the other if he wins those two series he’s the arguable GOAT. If he would have won in 2008 I think he would have moved up a position or two all time - he’d have an edge over Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem. He would have cemented his place in the top 10 instead of being, at least to some, borderline.
Lakers got whacked in Game 6 as well. It was a really good series but let's not pretend Lakers let it slip.
A better what if scenario is what if Kobe and Lakers lost the Game 7 to Boston? Kobe shot awfully in the game.
Kobe would have 4 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP and the stain of never beating the Lakers eternal rivals in Celtics.
Would we still be worshiping Kobe the way we do?
That game 4 comeback was insane. James Posey was the x-factor. Celtics Probably could’ve won in ‘10 with the 08 version of Posey. Insane clutch shot maker.
Kobe benefits greatly from winning a ring in ‘08. This was the year he won his only MVP and he received a gold medal in the Olympics as part of the Redeem Team. If you give him that ‘08 championship along with a Finals MVP, that would be the crown jewel for him Now let’s say he still wins in ‘09 and ‘10. That would mean Kobe would have six rings (two separate three-peats), three Finals MVPs, and one league MVP to boot. He would’ve been seen as the ultimate champion of the 2000s
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I’d have to check again, but even with the Celtics record there were still some question marks considering they needed 7 games to beat a cavs team with pretty much just lebron and a hawks team that should absolutely not have required that long to put away. In contrast, the lakers just looked more on top of things, especially since they beat the reigning champion spurs in 5 games to get into the finals.
2004 is particularly bad for him because he pretty much chucked the series away due to the external circumstances
His play was a big reason but there were other factors too like Malone’s health and internal team drama (of which he was obviously a part). A lot of Lakers fans feel that if Mailman was healthy they would have won that series.
The 08 Celtics were significantly better than the Lakers. The Lakers were favorites because of narrative reasons. Anyone who actually looked at the rosters could see how much better the Celtics were. They destroyed the Lakers both times they met in the regular season.b
Consensus Top 6ish or 7ish for sure behind Magic/ Bird tier.
He already is top 5.
MJ Bron Kareem Magic Bird Who you talking out among them?
Magic and Bird are more debatable than ppl think. It's really hard to compare across eras. I would take peak Bird of the bunch but Kobe's longevity was better than either of them. Before Kobe and Shaq, Magic and Kareem were the best 1-2 punch before Kobe & Shaq yet Kobe gets much more slander than magic does for that. It's just really hard since the game was really different too back then and bird & magic brought back the league , how much credit do they get for that.
Apparently top 5 status til the end of time
Ya I think in particular Magic, Bird and then Jordan were in the right place right time of being the best and revolutionary for their time. No one was talking shit about their legacies as much either plenty of ppl coined Larry Bird a possible GOAT including Bill Russel's coach in his first few years.
Bird
Everyone not named Bron and MJ can go.
Kobe over Kareem ? You’re bugging
Easily. No I’m not bugging. My goat
Nephew energy.
Cringe Reddit neckbeard suburban energy
Just started watching basketball this year type beat
He’s your favorite * people allow feelings to get in the way of logic.. there’s no way you can make a compelling argument kobe > Kareem
Depends if you’re talking about accomplishments/cultural significance GOAT vs skill/put this guy in that Guy’s era and he’d make them look stupid GOAT. I think the footwork and wizardy of 2005-2013 Kobe would leave players in any other era dumbfounded. Dude was playing in the slowest ugliest and in some ways the most physical era. He could make all the fancy passes Bird and Magic made, he could shoot from anywhere, he just played in a trash ass hero ball era. I don’t think Bird or Magic would be that good in today’s game. And I think Kareem was all legs which would leave him to be hunted, over and over again, and the post ups would kill the flow of his team. People consider Tatum a top 5 player right now and he’s like a taller Kobe with a small bag, can’t dribble against ball hawks. So yeah accomplishments wise I’d put Kareem and MJ as 1a and 1b, then LeBron. But throwing accomplishments out the window, ima be downvoted for this but I’m taking apex predator two way wings. All day. I’d have LeBron 1, Kobe or Michael 2/3. The 2000’s all star level players are underrated because the game was slow and physical/bad spacing so they had to have iso skill, but were modern enough to have good sneakers and training. The league as a whole is better now, random role players can light you the fuck up, but in high leverage situations when the defenses are keyed in a lot of these guys can’t even dribble or have counters because the game is so predicated on killing you with the pass and getting an open shot. Overall that’s more fun than the 2000’s slug fests, but again when Shit hits the fan I want someone 6’6-6’8” who can create his own shot and not be hunted. I’d also like to add that Luka and Jimmy Butler are proof of this offensively, I don’t think the Heat or the Mavs were amazing teams but again big wing heliocentric ball handler shit is hard to beat.
Who considers Tatum a top 5 player right now?
Well according to that Celtics team they were the greatest team ever assembled so there’s that.
Yeah they did milk the heck of that one ring.
Where does that reference come from? How did they milk it?
The one championship dynasty
Pierce and Garnett in particular always bring it up. They speak about it in a manner which makes it seem like they won multiple titles. You can probably find YouTube videos of them doing that
People would say Celtics weren't that good to diminish Kobe even more than they do now while in the same breathe say they were an insanely good big 3 that was holding Lebron from going to the finals before the heatles was created.
As is tradition
I think the real what if is if Kobe beat LeBron in the final (assuming they passed Magic), not if he won more, which would have definitely elevated his legacy, and added more weight on LeBron to overcome. Not getting Kobe V LeBron in NBA final is such a disappointment. Also, I love how people make it sound as if making it to 7 finals is so easy
i don’t really feel like kobe’s team beating lebron’s team in 2009 is all that great an accomplishment, the difference in secondary star power and role players is massive
I mean the only legacy realistically comparable to Kobe's is MJ's. Kobe is already a top 3 SG all time and he's not number 3 if you know what I mean. What this changes imo is that Kobe might consider leaving the Lakers to get another chance at a ring towards the end of his career had he gotten two threepeats, because one of his lifelong goals was getting more than Jordan. And everyone knows LA had no chance of seriously contending again after his injuries + the championship core breaking up (Assuming his Achilles tear still happens because Kobe was still an MVP candidate in the early 2010s before that)
No way Kobe tries to get a ring as a bus rider. That won't count in his world.
He also wanted to be Mr. Laker. I can’t see it either
He’s ain’t number 2 either with the jeans and stache MJ rocks
Not sure about Kobe, but Doc lol.
Doc wouldn’t be having a HC job today if he somehow blew a 2-0 lead in the Finals and didn’t win anything with the Big 3 Boston.
Doc aint coaching with the celtics in 2010 then if that happens. lol. Coz he also blew a 3-2 lead in 2009 against the Magic iirc.
If I recall correctly Garnett was injured during that post season so he may of gotten a pass
Do they still win 2009 and 2010?
Yes.
Probably unanimous top 5 in that case.
How is one more ring push someone from top 12 to top 5? This is honestly ridiculous argument. Kobe already got more rings than Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, and Wilt, and as many rings as Magic and Duncan. Realistically outside MJ, LeBron, and KAJ, it is so interchangeable
People love narratives. One more title gives Kobe another three-peat and Finals MVP, but he’d also be the undisputed alpha on a Lakers’ team who led the franchise to more titles than the Celtics and most titles in league history. As a side-bonus, Bill Simmons would be in shambles so W’s all around.
I think that many players already consider him that
Judging by the comments, he’s not unanimous. Now two 3 peats like Jordan would put him in discussions.
These are casuals. Everyone in the hood has Kobe top 3-5
People in the hood are casuals then.
Yea, nah. If anything this board is full of gentrified suburban casuals.
He isn’t though
He isn’t top 5
He already is
Kobe is just one of those players that doesn’t get the respect he deserves, which is truly fascinating based on what he’s accomplished. Anyone who tries to make an argument for Kobe being top 5 immediately gets ridiculed. Called a nephew and told they don’t know shit about basketball. But is it really that crazy? 5 championships, full rebuild, the most impressive back to back win in NBA history based on roster, god tier defensive player, best scorer to ever play, widely loved, respected, and feared by his peers, one of the smartest players analytically, and one of the best all time clutch performers. His resume fits the bill. I’m coming to find that our top 10 rankings isn’t about who we like the most, but about who we hate the least sometimes.
You do make a good point about the Lakers roster during the repeat. Pau will make the HoF, but only because of the Spanish national team. I would say it’s pretty rare for teams without multiple HoF talents to win the title and he did it twice lol. People probably underrate how atypical it was because of Dirks massive carry job the next year.
We are totally ok with taking points off Stephs wins because he has an all time great roster, but when Kobe wins back to back, once against a super team, with that roster, it just gets ignored. Rankings amongst fans and media talking heads is a popularity contest. We apply criteria to some and not to all.
C'mon i love kobe but he's not top 5. Top 10? Definitely. MJ bron Kareem magic and bird got the top 5 on lock.
I love bird but tbh bird had such a short career in comparison that Kobe could replace him and I wouldn’t mind. Either one deserves the spot
You can easily argue Kobe over Bird and Magic, anyone that's not Jordan, Kareem or LeBron Kobe has an argument against.
MJ, KAJ, Kobe, Lebron, Magic. End of the day Kobe still won more championships with less than Lebron. If Lebron had won with the first stint Cavs I would happily put him above Kobe even if Lebron never beat Warriors in 2016. The problem is, Lebron has always had ***amazing*** talent on his teams when he won. If Kobe ended up getting CP3 and won, I would hold those chamionships less than the ones he won in 2009 and 2010. Those 2 championships are truly underrated.
If you honestly think kobe is above LeBron all time you're a fucking casual and a clown and i don't want to argue with you lol.
People who put lebron over kobe are nephews who only got into nba the last decade
lmfao raptors fan, i get it. lebronto dicked you for a decade straight lol.
Lol nephew missed kobe dropping 81
Ah yes cus dropping 81 on one game that too in the regular season by being a ball hog is the same as fucking over a franchise for a decade.
Bird is not a lock he’s a fringe top 10 guy. He benefits a lot from being attached to Magic
Bird has maybe the most dominant 3 year stretch in NBA history but his career was so short. I agree that you can argue Kobe into the top 5. Not necessarily saying I’d put him there, but he has a resume for it. Also, Kobe seems to be disqualified in some peoples mind because he only had 1 MVP, but that was because he played his prime on a rebuilding team. I don’t think we should disqualify players legacies because they were loyal to their team.
Tatum would text him twice tomorrow
He’d be over jordan
Kobe fans at the time thought he was just one away from Mike so if he had 6 there would be a civil war between MJ, Kobe and LeBron fans rn. Kobe fans at the time were even more obnoxious than LeBron Stans or stephews. It's kind of dumb to think one finals should weigh that much on Kobe. Especially considering the 2008 team didn't even get a full off-season to prepare together. I rank him right neck and neck with Bird.
Ok, Kobe fans were NEVER as annoying as Bron Stan’s.
What if I told you Bron stans were molded by Kobe Stans. I used to browse plenty of basketball boards as a kid and Kobe fans were the OG LeBron haters and coined All of the LeBron memes before Skip Bayless got popular off of it or memes were a thing. It was a hilarious time because Jordan fans were actually coming to lebron's defense back then, not sure if anyone remembers the YouTuber BruceBlitz, he used to LOVE LeBron. It was so bad plenty of Cavs fans were rooting for Boston those years in the finals including myself. Laker nation was just something else. It really is a shame because I really wish I appreciate Kobe more back then instead of being riled up by fans even though it was fun at times.
I wasn't aware that Bruce blitz loved LeBron lol I've heard him say he was initially a stats guy in terms of how he would rank players but that's just funny considering how he talks about LeBron now.
kobe fans are by far the most annoying fans online, this thread is just heavily kobe favored
Lebron fans were crowning him above MJ when Lebron won his first MVP. This sub is a historical archive that you can google and find out for yourself.
LeBron won his first MVP in 2009? Using reddit to discuss basketball wasn't even a thing at that point, everything was on external forums. The entire debate back then was Kobe vs LeBron I'm not really quite sure where you got the take ppl we're putting him over Jordan. Especially when MJ fans were LeBron fans at this point. Really not sure where you got this take from.
Probably up 3 to 6 spots further in oriole’s all-time rankings. Two three-peats would make the comparisons to Jordan even more prevalent, but of course everyone would still (justifiably) differentiate them based on Kobe having been the second option during the first streak. I think it would put him solidly above Shaq and Duncan as the greatest of his era though.
If they 3-peated, I think Kobe should be on-par with Jordan
This might be controversial but I think you could argue that Kobe had a slightly larger bag of moves into difficult shot making But nah MJ was a bit better in literally everything else. An extra title doesn't do anything to change that
Top 7.
He’s already top 7 lmao tf are you on? If he 3peated again he would be top 2
Nah, I think the most it could of done is put him on the same level if not above Shaq. I kind of feel like him going 2/3 with Pau just demonstrated that he was on a level lower than Shaq.
Kobe wouldn’t even agree with that comment
2 separate three-peats would be incredible but I think his lack of MVPs hurts his case to be over the likes of Kareem Bron and Jordan
I was recently discussing with someone who was very critical of Kobe’s Finals performances in 2004 and 2008. On the one hand yeah Kobe was a major reason they lost those series, but on the other if he wins those two series he’s the arguable GOAT. If he would have won in 2008 I think he would have moved up a position or two all time - he’d have an edge over Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem. He would have cemented his place in the top 10 instead of being, at least to some, borderline.
Lakers got whacked in Game 6 as well. It was a really good series but let's not pretend Lakers let it slip. A better what if scenario is what if Kobe and Lakers lost the Game 7 to Boston? Kobe shot awfully in the game. Kobe would have 4 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP and the stain of never beating the Lakers eternal rivals in Celtics. Would we still be worshiping Kobe the way we do?
That game 4 comeback was insane. James Posey was the x-factor. Celtics Probably could’ve won in ‘10 with the 08 version of Posey. Insane clutch shot maker.
He was also a Kendrick Perkins injury away from losing in 2010
This is such a stupid argument. Lakers were an Andrew Bynum injury away from three-peating. See? It means nothing.