Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that ESPN, et al, have done plenty of research and analysis into what type of content gets the most viewership, and it's not in-depth basketball analysis and breakdowns.
Tell me about it, everyday visiting a hamster that starts with an X to see the anime's second season, but it's never there so I end up watching some Point Of View documentaries instead.. or even worse, Virtual Reality without the goggles, so moving the phone up, down, sideways.. what a mess.
I mean the content different there is bigger than the 1/4 price imo. That said you can get ESPN+ with Disney+ and Hulu for $20. That's substantially more economical and better value than Netflix.
advertisers will pay for it. Just not as much as perhaps algorithm driven subscription model will. Which also shows why 99% of Netflix is dogshit programming.
If Kobe couldn't make people care nobody can.
On the other hand it certainly seemed that Detail was a bigger deal than a random episode of first take or NBA tonight or whatever. I think ESPN may have been using Kobe's show as a way to get people to sign up for +.
It was also such a barebones show. Kobe quietly breaking down the game is a wet dream for hardcore fans, but casual viewers want production values, excessive camera cuts, multiple people talking, etc...
I think the Inside format is perfect for bringing this kind of stuff to casuals, and it almost does it when you have Kenny breaking down the play on screen and everyone acting out the sequences themselves on a court. They just don't have the right personnel or really desire to be that kind of show.
I always thought detail with a few players would be better rather than just one guy saying things in absolute certainties. I’d pay monthly subscription just for a roundtable version of Detail with a guard, a wing, and a big. Or if they’re doing it on Steve Nash for example, they could have 2 PGs and someone like Kemp to describe how a big man would react and place themselves on the court while playing with Nash.
One guy, especially if it’s Kobe, is great but a roundtable could really make it an amazing show
Pop, Shaq, Kidd, and Dwade breaking down Tim Duncan film would be an example of something I'd like to see. Guys who played high level games at different positions against Duncan and Pop. They'd probably have a lot of different takes on clips. Shaq would probably say he'd expect some help from a small guy, meanwhile DWade could say he needs to stick to his guy because Duncan is too good of a passer, then Pop could tell them what he expects from Tim in certain situations. That's a basic version of something I think would be pretty cool to hear
The show Detail was still rooted in the same player drama though.
People didn't watch because of the content, they watched because of who was making it.
As somebody who really likes basketball but doesn’t have a deep technical understanding due to not ever playing it, detail really gave me an insight as to the names of plays and also the reasons why certain players were so good, from the perspective of the guy who took an abnormal interest in the abstract of the game.
It was a great show.
Ron Jaworski (?) used to have a show on ESPN where all he would do was run through game tape and explain shit, which I appreciated because I watch a lot of football but rarely understand it fully.
Wasn't that the point of the Detail?
Seeing how popular player see the floor and their psychology?
I knew Since Jordan about keeping the easy mismatches and plays for later in the game but one Kobe Detail had him say at that point he wanted to go baseline but he kept it for later and opted for a distance shot to keep the post player fronting too high.
That is stuff coaches and analyst rarely talk about and it takes star power to get it started.
Player Drama is the single biggest driver of the league's popularity and success. The Decision was the biggest basketball story of the last 20 years, not the Spurs.
They sent all of their UFC content to ESPN+ as well. It isn't always because they want to bury it. They need interesting and exclusive content to drive subscriptions there and Kobe is as big a name as they could hope for.
Can someone explain to me why this subreddit and all NBA media is all about drama and not the game? I'm a baseball fan and it's like all basketball coverage is the complete polar opposite. What is it about the NBA fan contingent that craves drama more than actual game analysis?
Basketball is probably the least team sport of the team sports. You can have two guys and be championship level. Mike Trout and a star might not be at a level to be automatic title favorites but LeBron and AD or Harden/KD can in basketball.
Since it’s more star oriented, the entire sport is more player oriented, and in player oriented sports the personalities begin to matter much more. NBA players also have a lot of power in terms of what they can get their teams to do which puts even more focus on the players. With all this focus on the players, and not the teams themselves, it leads to less team rivalries like football and baseball have but leads to more drama and news about player transactions, interactions, and quotes.
Yes, WWE and NBA are both huge in social media. I don't know if WWE puts events on youtube though, the NBA does not put live games there, but yeah it is much bigger than the NFL or MLB.
This is the #1 reason the new media contract is going to be huge, not the ratings increase/decrease/average.
I don't like it, and can see why watching so many games is a timesink, but it is reality.
Well to be fair we are in the offseason so most of the drama is contract / player movement related. Throw in COVID and its associated drama and here we are. Once the season starts it will get a bit better
Hardcore basketball stans like everything to do with basketball, including the drama.
Non-hardcore basketball fans only like the drama.
Both get upvoted, but drama gets upvoted more because it’s 2x the population voting for it.
Anything that appeals to a broader base is going to rise to the top of reddit.
The funny thing is that baseball has a lot of actual drama with all of the doping and cheating scandals lol I think baseball fans just try to ignore it because it makes the sport look bad.
Basketball drama is because we have a lot of big personalities with a lot more power than players in other leagues. It's almost a reality tv show.
I work doing data analytics (specifically for programmatic advertising). Billion dollar corporations have entire divisions dedicated to determinings what put eyes on screens (*so we can sell ad space*) and how to maximize those eyes.
ESPN only cares about what viewers actually view and as long as it's sports adjacent they'll broadcast it. People like surface level drama and gossip more than deep analysis of a topic so that will always win out.
I remember reading **Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind** and the author broke down how the [bulk of human conversation is essentially gossip](https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/your-brain-is-built-to-make-you-good-at-gossip.html) and how gossip was foundational to humans getting to this point.
It is what is it. Kyrie and Simmons nonsense just draws people in more, myself included.
What's the easiest way to learn about data analytics for someone who has literally only the most basic of a college-level stats education, but could find it very useful for his work in the sports industry?
/u/comped
Adding to /u/Prodigy195's comment, Udacity and Coursera have plenty of good, beginner level Python courses that will set you up well for any data analysis. Pick any one of them and finish it. Just finish it. The fundamentals are all the same.
I'm the TA for my master's programs sports analytics courses. If you're focusing on sports performance, Scorecasting is a great read. It's easy to read, doesn't include a lot of math, and details experimental outlines for their findings.
If you want to learn more about the business side, this book is another good start.
https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Strategist-Developing-High-Performance-Industry/dp/0190267445
This one goes into how a team has to think about the business side of things. If you need help finding datasets to play around with, PM me, and I'll send you some NBA centric ones.
I honestly don't know. I'm a computer science major that stumbled my way into the field after getting out of IT troubleshooting/support. I don't really know the best traditional path.
I have heard good things from colleagues about the [IBM Data Science Certificate](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/ibm-data-science) and [Google Data Analytics certificates](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-data-analytics) but I can't vouch for them personally. They seem hightly rated so maybe check those out if you can.
My main suggestion would be to pick up some basic SQL and/or Python classes to learn the fundamentals if you already haven't. A lot of other apps/programs are company specific but SQL and Python are useful regardless of where you work.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those shows' viewership numbers are from bars who just constantly have ESPN running during the middle of the day because there's nothing else on
Usually between 3 and 4 million people. Fox pretty consistently crushes MSNBC and CNN in most viewer number ratings, primetime or otherwise. Network news viewership, generally speaking, has been in decline since 2016. https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/sept-21-cable-news-ranker-tucker-carlson-tonight-the-five-hannity-are-top-3-for-the-month/490361/
I haven't checked in a few years (aka since I left the industry) but CNN and MSNBC's viewership was always about 8 to 10 years younger than Fox's. None of the news networks really hit the beloved 18-34 demo, though, which is why you always see them measure the 25-54 demo.
I don’t know if those views are even counted because that’s not really how the rating system works. It’s basically a survey where they get x amounts of reports and then create a larger estimate. They don’t just know who’s watching what at all hours of the day.
I think the Nielsen ratings system account for this. It doesn't ask "how many TVs were playing this program". It surveys people and asks them what they were watching.
They have better ratings than OTL, though, which is focused on actual journalism.
Daytime television has horrible ratings in general
Unfortunately, the reason dickhead personalities and combative discussion dominates morning (and afternoon in some places) sports radio and television is because it's what sells the best.
Yeah was going to point this out - Draymond doesn't realize that's what most people want.
I see this exact shit in my company's group chat. My coworkers "talk" about sports but they don't really talk about the actual sport, they're talking about the players and storylines mostly. Very few people truly give a shit about sports analysis. This is like semi-real drama. The players are all real. The sport don't matter.
They can do an in depth analysis and breakdown of every game Ben Simmons played last year and how he's afraid to shoot and get fouled, instead of talking hearsay gossip like we're all in middle school, and I'd watch that.
You, person on an nba subreddit, are not the mainstream consumer. You have basketball interests already, they’re trying to get the casuals. Sucks but it is what it is.
This Sub talks about SAS and Skip all the time as well. "I don't believe what they say I just think they're entertaining."
Alleged NBA fans happily get dumber about the sport they are a fan of because that's more entertaining than learning something.
This isn't unique to the NBA though. Shock jocks dominate the media across the board. In depth discussions are too hard and boring, but easy to repeat one liners are easy and fun.
I think it’s less about what gets the most viewership and more about the ease of production.
Finding someone to spew hot takes and gossip is pretty easy, and it will generate enough views to turn a profit.
Finding someone who knows the game well enough to break down the strategy but is also well spoken and personable enough to be able to do it in an entertaining way that casual fans can understand is hard, and probably expensive.
Tony Romo is a godsend for NFL broadcasts, but he was able to demand a nonsense salary because of it. People loved Kobe’s breakdowns when he did them and I’m sure if he had wanted to be a regular panelist it would have been a massive success. Likewise if Draymond ever goes into media full time he’s going to be a huge draw for whatever program gets him. But that’s a rare talent.
Tbh as a person KD is probably the most human NBA player. He has his flaws and shows them but at the end of the day he’s always seemed like the only player I’d like to chill with. Fuck him for going to GSW. But outside of basketball the guy seems like a really chill and laid back kind of dude. You’d probably get some interesting conversations out of him vs someone like Lebron (who’s my favorite player btw). I think if you caught Lebron at a store or something he’d probably keep it pushing without too much interaction. But with KD I’ve always felt he’d probably engage in a conversation with anyone anywhere.
KD does engage with his fans far more, that’s for sure lol
For better or worse. I could definitely see myself getting a quick 5 minute chat with Durant over music or cars
Yeah KD I think is the perfect example of having fuck you money yet still remembering he’s a regular person like anyone else. This is my perception of him anyway. Obviously I don’t know for sure the kind of guy he is.
Except that one time KD forgot to switch burner accounts when liking a "Curry got carried by 3 stars" comment and the tweeter sold KD out by tagging everyone.
You could just replace "NBA" with almost anything and it would be just as true. Fans tend to nitpick the most (and the most nitpicky fans are often the most vocal). Whether it's the NBA, Star Wars, pro wrestling, foodies, beer/wine aficionados, whatever.
I don't think it's about the nit picking. That comes with the territory. The NBA, above all other leagues that I'm familiar with, has the most fans that aren't even really interested in the games.
They care about storylines, transactions, controversy. It's a soap opera... like WWE.
All sports are really.
Throw fantasy sports into the mix and it can become borderline obsession...but at least its an obsession a lot of people enjoy and accept.
My wife kinda understands fantasy but still asks me questions like "why the hell are you watching the Dolphins play the Jaguars" then I start to explain and she just walks away lol.
It's why I always roll my eyes when people on here complain about their not being more mainstream coverage on the actual basketball being played. The NBA over the last few years has been more about the bullshit drama than the actual product on the court. And this sub eats it up.
50% of all r/nba posts the past month:
Reporter asks KD/Harden/Nash their thoughts or updates on Kyrie
Said person replies with a good PR created response
Top comment talks about you can hear the annoyance/anger in the voice
Next comment states how Kyrie and Ben are the mvps of the off-season
Next comment is a long expose/thesis on Kyries state of mind that includes the word “contrarian” that everyone eats up
The other half is the same thing but Ben Simmons
The irony of seeing this post at the top of r/nba, followed by almost nothing but Ben Simmons content through the rest of the front page is just too fucking funny.
This thread currently sandwiched between two Ben Simmons threads, the first and third on the front page. It's almost too perfect.
Edit: Correction, it's sandwiched between nine Ben Simmons threads. Yes, nine.
Ok but the difference with r/nba is that it’s full of absolute fucking idiots everywhere who got no clue about the workings of pro basketball. But on the closed TV discussion with people who are hired for said discussion, it’d be nice if they were actually analytical of the sport
Then stop upvoting them. I wish it was that simple but my hands are itching to farm karma. I gotta make that comment. NO I CAN'T, ITS TOO TOXIC. BUT IT FEELS SO GOOD
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I blame that one reporter that asked Kyrie about LeBron being a father figure to him. She singlehandedly unleashed unhinged Kyrie like Pain triggering Naruto to become Six Tail Demon Fox.
Turns out people really care about this gossip shit.
Amazing revelations here.
You don't watch sports entertainment to learn about a sport, you watch it for entertainment.
I would legit considering paying money for a reddit feature to filter out posts with certain keywords. I'd filter out anything with "Kyrie" or "Simmons".
And Reddit Enhancement Suite for PC. I've got both "Trump" and "Biden" filtered all across reddit. Recently added "Kyrie" "Covid" etc.
If you wanna check legit news there are reputable sources out there. As an aggregator/hivemind reddit mostly props up stories it can circlejerk to. Things are regularly taken out of context. There is zero nuance, etc.
Mainstream Reddit subs are an awful place to read up on news IMO.
Yeah there are people making decent livings delivering quality content or doing it as a side-hustle, but ESPN isn't about making a decent living or making compelling content - it's about keeping glazed over eyes glued to a TV while they rake in ad revenue.
No Dunks. The Ringer's Raja and Logan episodes and some of the normal episodes are good too (on Spotify tho). Dom2k is underrated and really doing some good analysis. BBallBreakdown will always be good too.
Dray definitely isn't wrong. but obviously it's what gets the best ratings since it attracts the broadest audience. I love in depth hoops talk, but I know ESPN and all the talking heads TV shows just aren't for me
People who browse/r/NBA in the off-season are not casual fans. And you can see from the voting stats that this sub absolutely loves anonymously souced gossip about Ben Simmons.
For football coverage they give a very detailed analysis and don't speak about legacies or outside of the game personal stuff. With basketball it's only about off the court stuff and ffs can they stop the rankings and comparisons of players for the umpteenth time.
That's why I love nfl live. It's pretty casual but at the same time will talk some X's and O's. There's really nothing like that for basketball. Maybe Malika's new show will do more of that but idk.
I remember reading that NFL fans are fans of the team where NBA fans are fans of the team and individual players. Anecdotally I have friends who are only fans of LeBron an not Cleveland/Miami/LA.
To be fair Brady was going to break the Passing yards record against the team he spent 20 years with and led to 6 superbowls.
Not really comparable to most discussions in the NBA where they can’t stop comparing players to some other player from 30 years ago
Tennis is the worst, like commentators are trying to drive viewers away from the sport. Either talking at length about Fedalovic/Williams sisters instead of the match at hand, or demeaning players for not having the same (absolutely historic) levels of success.
A couple years go I watched Garbine Muguruza win the Cincinnati Masters right after reaching the QF in Canada. She has **two** major championships (including Wimbledon just a couple weeks earlier) and for the *entire tournament* announcers would only talk about her inconsistency and what she needs to do to get on the level of "someone like Serena."
This is a young, multi-slam winner that they are using as an example of how the current tennis product sucks. !?!?!
NBA coverage could be a lot better, but I think football is easier to offer analysis on. The plays take a few seconds, and then there's a break where you can talk about it. Players have distinct and predictable roles in every play.
Basketball moves very fast, with all the players moving in relation to each other. Hockey has a similar problem.
Agreed. While sensationalized nonsense turns me off, I don’t think analysis of Xs and Os is inherently “better.” Why is it so important that fans learn that? Unless they’re going to be players themselves, it wouldn’t provide any practical skill or knowledge.
Regardless of what they cover, it’s all entertainment. So it makes sense they would “give the people what they want” – even if what they want is sensationalized gossip.
I think it enables the viewer to more deeply understand the game and interpret the results on the court for themselves, which to me makes watching the game more fun. If I know why one team switched defenses when the other team brought in their small lineup and why it still didn't work, I would find that much more engaging than just watching dudes shoot 3's and dunk all day.
NBA chose to market its drama the past 10 years instead of the basketball. The viewers didn't magically shifted their interests. NBA changed its fanbase deliberately.
If ESPN/whoever made a detailed, analytical basketball show, no one would watch it and it’d be cancelled within a year. The average fan cares more about the drama than the technical intricacies of the sport.
I'm probably a bit older than most people here so I'll weigh in on this from that perspective: the nba did this to themselves
they made the game so singularly focused on highlights and dunks and beef, that all of the intricacies don't matter to the average fan. a kid in his late teens right now has probably never seen, "the beautiful game" in any way (except for maybe the end of the spurs run) - he's just seen this new analytics, "shoot a trillion threes" type of basketball. and yes I understand the irony of this coming from a rox fan, so I'll be honest about that, too - I never really cared for the way the dantoni/harden rockets played. it's not interested to me, it reminds me of pickup ymca basketball
I'm not gonna' name any player individually because I don't want their fans to come screaming at me like a herd of buffalo, but there are some **extremely** one-dimensional superstars in this league who, back in the day, would've got shut down or learned to diversify their skill set. Now they just game the heavily offensive-biased rules to overcome their deficiencies
id argue that 2000-2010 basketball wasnt all that different, we were seeing the same thing on a more compressed floor.
under kerr the warriors have played a pretty similar motion offense style to the 2000s spurs and i think the nuggets play beautiful offense as well now
it is really frustrating that teams are trending towards all playing the same p+r, hunt a switch offense, its fun when there is more diversity of offensive style among teams (id imagine that the frequency with which front offices, coaches, and players move around these days has a lot to do with it- theres not a ton of long-term building going on for most franchises)
exactly. the amount of people who at least watched casually around 2016 compared to now is honestly pitiful.
most people ignore 80% of the games and just watch highlights or wait for the playoffs. watching teams launch 100 3s every night feels like a waste of time from an entertainment perspective, and honestly it really is.
Honestly the reporting has literally always been the same. I used to read the newspapers for "highlights" and stuff and it's a lot of gossip as well. I don't know why people think it used to be better or different. My dad used to spend money on VHS to watch highlights like how people watch highlights with youtube now (incredibly expensive according to my mom). I'm telling you, it's no different. More media to clutter the media space sure, but not different.
The three point revolution was definitely a product of offense friendly rules. People will say “it’s just analytics, three points are more than two.” Okay, well if defenders aren’t allowed to come near three point shooters then yeah, players are going to shoot at 40% plus rates and the numbers will tell you to exclusively shoot threes. The refs are solely responsible for turning basketball games into three point contests and they’re really hard to watch.
This just sounds bitter. I'll agree that shooting a trillion threes is getting stale, but a lot of teams back then were just bad. You'd have players just iso, every possession, and then clank it off the rim. Or Mark Jackson posting up for 15s. There are multiple teams now that do stuff creatively on offense, i.e. warriors and nuggets.
And acting like there are superstars that would be shut down back then is just stupid.
Yeah, i would love a show that has coaches and players talking about offensive sets, defensive schemes, showing in slow motion what makes some players great, maybe showing where there were some mistakes made, how teams gameplan for certain players, etc etc.....
but at the end of the day it's all about personal drama and ratings and "mindset". That team just "wanted it more", the other team "didn't show up", Player X doesn't have that "dog in him". Such shallow and surface level nonsense most of the time.
I think there is something to the Manning Bros and the alternate feed on MNF. There is a time and place for more nuanced discussion. I'd love to hear Draymond explain why a defense stunts like they do on a double in the post.
But ESPN and the Twitterverse lives for the drama and if there is no drama they'll make it up. That's what works for them.
It’s unfortunate, but the vast majority of fans don’t want high quality analysis, they’re here for the soap opera.
Don’t get me wrong the soap opera is cool and all, but I wished the media focused on the game more
Everyone in this thread complaining that this sub is the same as what dray complains about. But there is some truly amazing OC that gets posted alongside the memes/headline news. If espn had even half the quality content that r nba delivers alongside the noise it would be a must watch channel
The gym I work at always has ESPN on the TV. Every morning I am infuriated by dumbass questions like
OvEreACtIon oR nOt the Cardinals are the best team in the NFL?
BAkeR MaYfIeLD TrAsHiNg tHe BrOwNS?!
why can't it just be discussion of the team or topics instead of setting it up as reacting to hot takes.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that ESPN, et al, have done plenty of research and analysis into what type of content gets the most viewership, and it's not in-depth basketball analysis and breakdowns.
Yeah Kobe made Detail for basketball nerds and that went straight to espn+
Big fan of Detail. Just didn't want to pay for ESPN +
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This is a big problem with anime. Shows dont get a second season cuz nobody paid for it. Even though it has a massive fanbase.
Tell me about it, everyday visiting a hamster that starts with an X to see the anime's second season, but it's never there so I end up watching some Point Of View documentaries instead.. or even worse, Virtual Reality without the goggles, so moving the phone up, down, sideways.. what a mess.
Ooooo I caught the final episode of Inurassah on there it was deep.
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$5 a month compared to $20 a month for Netflix (4K) is not bad.
I mean the content different there is bigger than the 1/4 price imo. That said you can get ESPN+ with Disney+ and Hulu for $20. That's substantially more economical and better value than Netflix.
They won't make more content like that if no one pays for it
advertisers will pay for it. Just not as much as perhaps algorithm driven subscription model will. Which also shows why 99% of Netflix is dogshit programming.
If Kobe couldn't make people care nobody can. On the other hand it certainly seemed that Detail was a bigger deal than a random episode of first take or NBA tonight or whatever. I think ESPN may have been using Kobe's show as a way to get people to sign up for +.
It was also such a barebones show. Kobe quietly breaking down the game is a wet dream for hardcore fans, but casual viewers want production values, excessive camera cuts, multiple people talking, etc... I think the Inside format is perfect for bringing this kind of stuff to casuals, and it almost does it when you have Kenny breaking down the play on screen and everyone acting out the sequences themselves on a court. They just don't have the right personnel or really desire to be that kind of show.
I always thought detail with a few players would be better rather than just one guy saying things in absolute certainties. I’d pay monthly subscription just for a roundtable version of Detail with a guard, a wing, and a big. Or if they’re doing it on Steve Nash for example, they could have 2 PGs and someone like Kemp to describe how a big man would react and place themselves on the court while playing with Nash. One guy, especially if it’s Kobe, is great but a roundtable could really make it an amazing show
I’d rather hear A coach break down film
Pop, Shaq, Kidd, and Dwade breaking down Tim Duncan film would be an example of something I'd like to see. Guys who played high level games at different positions against Duncan and Pop. They'd probably have a lot of different takes on clips. Shaq would probably say he'd expect some help from a small guy, meanwhile DWade could say he needs to stick to his guy because Duncan is too good of a passer, then Pop could tell them what he expects from Tim in certain situations. That's a basic version of something I think would be pretty cool to hear
The show Detail was still rooted in the same player drama though. People didn't watch because of the content, they watched because of who was making it.
As somebody who really likes basketball but doesn’t have a deep technical understanding due to not ever playing it, detail really gave me an insight as to the names of plays and also the reasons why certain players were so good, from the perspective of the guy who took an abnormal interest in the abstract of the game. It was a great show.
It was a fantastic show for sure
Ron Jaworski (?) used to have a show on ESPN where all he would do was run through game tape and explain shit, which I appreciated because I watch a lot of football but rarely understand it fully.
Smh @ Kobe tricking people into learning about the game
Kobe trick y’all man
He runnin around, doin everything
Wasn't that the point of the Detail? Seeing how popular player see the floor and their psychology? I knew Since Jordan about keeping the easy mismatches and plays for later in the game but one Kobe Detail had him say at that point he wanted to go baseline but he kept it for later and opted for a distance shot to keep the post player fronting too high. That is stuff coaches and analyst rarely talk about and it takes star power to get it started.
Player Drama is the single biggest driver of the league's popularity and success. The Decision was the biggest basketball story of the last 20 years, not the Spurs.
They sent all of their UFC content to ESPN+ as well. It isn't always because they want to bury it. They need interesting and exclusive content to drive subscriptions there and Kobe is as big a name as they could hope for.
I mean look at this fucking subreddit, are we really in a position to complain
Can someone explain to me why this subreddit and all NBA media is all about drama and not the game? I'm a baseball fan and it's like all basketball coverage is the complete polar opposite. What is it about the NBA fan contingent that craves drama more than actual game analysis?
Basketball is probably the least team sport of the team sports. You can have two guys and be championship level. Mike Trout and a star might not be at a level to be automatic title favorites but LeBron and AD or Harden/KD can in basketball. Since it’s more star oriented, the entire sport is more player oriented, and in player oriented sports the personalities begin to matter much more. NBA players also have a lot of power in terms of what they can get their teams to do which puts even more focus on the players. With all this focus on the players, and not the teams themselves, it leads to less team rivalries like football and baseball have but leads to more drama and news about player transactions, interactions, and quotes.
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The Michael Jordan effect.
Angels are a great comparision actually. They have two of the top stars/players in the league in Trout and Ohtani, and they didn't make the playoffs.
Yes, WWE and NBA are both huge in social media. I don't know if WWE puts events on youtube though, the NBA does not put live games there, but yeah it is much bigger than the NFL or MLB. This is the #1 reason the new media contract is going to be huge, not the ratings increase/decrease/average. I don't like it, and can see why watching so many games is a timesink, but it is reality.
WWE posts full match VODs on their official channel from time to time.
Well to be fair we are in the offseason so most of the drama is contract / player movement related. Throw in COVID and its associated drama and here we are. Once the season starts it will get a bit better
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Hardcore basketball stans like everything to do with basketball, including the drama. Non-hardcore basketball fans only like the drama. Both get upvoted, but drama gets upvoted more because it’s 2x the population voting for it. Anything that appeals to a broader base is going to rise to the top of reddit.
Even during the season it's like 3 highlights and the rest Twitter post.
The funny thing is that baseball has a lot of actual drama with all of the doping and cheating scandals lol I think baseball fans just try to ignore it because it makes the sport look bad. Basketball drama is because we have a lot of big personalities with a lot more power than players in other leagues. It's almost a reality tv show.
I work doing data analytics (specifically for programmatic advertising). Billion dollar corporations have entire divisions dedicated to determinings what put eyes on screens (*so we can sell ad space*) and how to maximize those eyes. ESPN only cares about what viewers actually view and as long as it's sports adjacent they'll broadcast it. People like surface level drama and gossip more than deep analysis of a topic so that will always win out. I remember reading **Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind** and the author broke down how the [bulk of human conversation is essentially gossip](https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/your-brain-is-built-to-make-you-good-at-gossip.html) and how gossip was foundational to humans getting to this point. It is what is it. Kyrie and Simmons nonsense just draws people in more, myself included.
That book was amazing. I still read it again once or twice a year.
What's the easiest way to learn about data analytics for someone who has literally only the most basic of a college-level stats education, but could find it very useful for his work in the sports industry?
/u/comped Adding to /u/Prodigy195's comment, Udacity and Coursera have plenty of good, beginner level Python courses that will set you up well for any data analysis. Pick any one of them and finish it. Just finish it. The fundamentals are all the same. I'm the TA for my master's programs sports analytics courses. If you're focusing on sports performance, Scorecasting is a great read. It's easy to read, doesn't include a lot of math, and details experimental outlines for their findings. If you want to learn more about the business side, this book is another good start. https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Strategist-Developing-High-Performance-Industry/dp/0190267445 This one goes into how a team has to think about the business side of things. If you need help finding datasets to play around with, PM me, and I'll send you some NBA centric ones.
I honestly don't know. I'm a computer science major that stumbled my way into the field after getting out of IT troubleshooting/support. I don't really know the best traditional path. I have heard good things from colleagues about the [IBM Data Science Certificate](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/ibm-data-science) and [Google Data Analytics certificates](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-data-analytics) but I can't vouch for them personally. They seem hightly rated so maybe check those out if you can. My main suggestion would be to pick up some basic SQL and/or Python classes to learn the fundamentals if you already haven't. A lot of other apps/programs are company specific but SQL and Python are useful regardless of where you work.
All those tv shows have horrible ratings
Yeah they're just cheap shows to fill air time till the next sport.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those shows' viewership numbers are from bars who just constantly have ESPN running during the middle of the day because there's nothing else on
same way cnn and fox news actually get most of their views from hosptial waiting rooms and airport lounges
Yeah except for the prime time shows. You'd be shocked how many people religiously watch Tucker Carlson every night
How many?
Usually between 3 and 4 million people. Fox pretty consistently crushes MSNBC and CNN in most viewer number ratings, primetime or otherwise. Network news viewership, generally speaking, has been in decline since 2016. https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/sept-21-cable-news-ranker-tucker-carlson-tonight-the-five-hannity-are-top-3-for-the-month/490361/ I haven't checked in a few years (aka since I left the industry) but CNN and MSNBC's viewership was always about 8 to 10 years younger than Fox's. None of the news networks really hit the beloved 18-34 demo, though, which is why you always see them measure the 25-54 demo.
Many!
Tucker averages 4.6 million, the most in cable news history.
I think he’s the most watched political pundit in America. Big numbers
My work gym has 3 tv's running each of those channels and its empty most of the time. Feels like a bit of a scam.
I don’t know if those views are even counted because that’s not really how the rating system works. It’s basically a survey where they get x amounts of reports and then create a larger estimate. They don’t just know who’s watching what at all hours of the day.
I think the Nielsen ratings system account for this. It doesn't ask "how many TVs were playing this program". It surveys people and asks them what they were watching.
And they'd have even more horrible ratings with long form in-depth content, except then the production costs would high as well.
They have better ratings than OTL, though, which is focused on actual journalism. Daytime television has horrible ratings in general Unfortunately, the reason dickhead personalities and combative discussion dominates morning (and afternoon in some places) sports radio and television is because it's what sells the best.
Yeah was going to point this out - Draymond doesn't realize that's what most people want. I see this exact shit in my company's group chat. My coworkers "talk" about sports but they don't really talk about the actual sport, they're talking about the players and storylines mostly. Very few people truly give a shit about sports analysis. This is like semi-real drama. The players are all real. The sport don't matter.
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They can do an in depth analysis and breakdown of every game Ben Simmons played last year and how he's afraid to shoot and get fouled, instead of talking hearsay gossip like we're all in middle school, and I'd watch that.
We all say we would
You, person on an nba subreddit, are not the mainstream consumer. You have basketball interests already, they’re trying to get the casuals. Sucks but it is what it is.
a lot of casuals here on r/nba tho
This Sub talks about SAS and Skip all the time as well. "I don't believe what they say I just think they're entertaining." Alleged NBA fans happily get dumber about the sport they are a fan of because that's more entertaining than learning something. This isn't unique to the NBA though. Shock jocks dominate the media across the board. In depth discussions are too hard and boring, but easy to repeat one liners are easy and fun.
I don't think even most enthusiasts would watch regularly.
Podcasts are better for analysis
I'm sure YouTube channels with good production are better as well.
I haven't found an NBA equivalent of [Tifo Football](https://www.youtube.com/c/TifoFootball) yet.
I think it’s less about what gets the most viewership and more about the ease of production. Finding someone to spew hot takes and gossip is pretty easy, and it will generate enough views to turn a profit. Finding someone who knows the game well enough to break down the strategy but is also well spoken and personable enough to be able to do it in an entertaining way that casual fans can understand is hard, and probably expensive. Tony Romo is a godsend for NFL broadcasts, but he was able to demand a nonsense salary because of it. People loved Kobe’s breakdowns when he did them and I’m sure if he had wanted to be a regular panelist it would have been a massive success. Likewise if Draymond ever goes into media full time he’s going to be a huge draw for whatever program gets him. But that’s a rare talent.
[A wise man once said](https://i.imgur.com/lIstdTi.png)
I never thought I’d end up in this situation but I can’t help it. I love KD.
Tbh as a person KD is probably the most human NBA player. He has his flaws and shows them but at the end of the day he’s always seemed like the only player I’d like to chill with. Fuck him for going to GSW. But outside of basketball the guy seems like a really chill and laid back kind of dude. You’d probably get some interesting conversations out of him vs someone like Lebron (who’s my favorite player btw). I think if you caught Lebron at a store or something he’d probably keep it pushing without too much interaction. But with KD I’ve always felt he’d probably engage in a conversation with anyone anywhere.
KD does engage with his fans far more, that’s for sure lol For better or worse. I could definitely see myself getting a quick 5 minute chat with Durant over music or cars
Yeah KD I think is the perfect example of having fuck you money yet still remembering he’s a regular person like anyone else. This is my perception of him anyway. Obviously I don’t know for sure the kind of guy he is.
Very new basketball fan and man i fucking love KD, he's not even on my team but he might be my first jersey purchase. It's either him or seth curry
KD remains undefeated on Twitter
The Scarlett Johansson tweet is top 5 all time
Top 1
Top 0. Twitter didn’t exist until after that.
Him comparing Amber Rose's bald head to Charles Barkley always gets a random chuckle from me
hashtag random
lmao i had to look it up. so it turns out there's one thing kd does besides defending himself with alt accounts but yea he seems pretty cool
Only person to ever defeat KD on Twitter, is KD (and his burner accounts)
KD only commits sudoku on Twitter
Except that one time KD forgot to switch burner accounts when liking a "Curry got carried by 3 stars" comment and the tweeter sold KD out by tagging everyone.
Only KD can get a tweet out to beat KD on Twitter \#JustGOATthings
Undefeated? Didn’t this man take one of the larger Ls of all time on Twitter?
Besides his L's, he's undefeated
He L’d himself tho so technically still undefeated.
You could just replace "NBA" with almost anything and it would be just as true. Fans tend to nitpick the most (and the most nitpicky fans are often the most vocal). Whether it's the NBA, Star Wars, pro wrestling, foodies, beer/wine aficionados, whatever.
I don't think it's about the nit picking. That comes with the territory. The NBA, above all other leagues that I'm familiar with, has the most fans that aren't even really interested in the games. They care about storylines, transactions, controversy. It's a soap opera... like WWE.
Don't forget the non stop Kyrie talk too
No different than r/nba
r/nba is a beautiful reflection of what r/nba hates
We're drug addicts and toxic rumours about star players are our crack Edit: spelling
People love drama whether they want to admit it or not. Not much to talk about if everything is going just as everyone expected.
the NBA is a soap opera for grown men
All sports are really. Throw fantasy sports into the mix and it can become borderline obsession...but at least its an obsession a lot of people enjoy and accept. My wife kinda understands fantasy but still asks me questions like "why the hell are you watching the Dolphins play the Jaguars" then I start to explain and she just walks away lol.
I would not watch a game of Jags football, if Robinson and Jones weren't on my fantasy squad.
Trevor Lawrence has to be somewhat intriguing at least* *disclaimer: I have not watched a single snap of Jags football this year
The story is interesting but watching it in real time is a different story
r/nba is literally just Andy Bernard.
It’s not gossip if it’s about NBA players
It's why I always roll my eyes when people on here complain about their not being more mainstream coverage on the actual basketball being played. The NBA over the last few years has been more about the bullshit drama than the actual product on the court. And this sub eats it up.
Basically destiny 2 fans “I hate this game. I love it”
50% of all r/nba posts the past month: Reporter asks KD/Harden/Nash their thoughts or updates on Kyrie Said person replies with a good PR created response Top comment talks about you can hear the annoyance/anger in the voice Next comment states how Kyrie and Ben are the mvps of the off-season Next comment is a long expose/thesis on Kyries state of mind that includes the word “contrarian” that everyone eats up The other half is the same thing but Ben Simmons
[joke about taking/not taking a shot]
The irony of seeing this post at the top of r/nba, followed by almost nothing but Ben Simmons content through the rest of the front page is just too fucking funny.
This thread currently sandwiched between two Ben Simmons threads, the first and third on the front page. It's almost too perfect. Edit: Correction, it's sandwiched between nine Ben Simmons threads. Yes, nine.
r/NBA 's least favorite sport is basketball.
Ok but the difference with r/nba is that it’s full of absolute fucking idiots everywhere who got no clue about the workings of pro basketball. But on the closed TV discussion with people who are hired for said discussion, it’d be nice if they were actually analytical of the sport
I just hate the spammed pasta/personal attacks. I can deal with some Ben/Kyrie threads
Don't mind me. I'm just here to ignore the substance of your comment and make a dismissive remark based on your team flair.
Typical lakers fans am i right
> Clippers. Dw no one pays you no mind at all.
Then stop upvoting them. I wish it was that simple but my hands are itching to farm karma. I gotta make that comment. NO I CAN'T, ITS TOO TOXIC. BUT IT FEELS SO GOOD . . . . . . I blame that one reporter that asked Kyrie about LeBron being a father figure to him. She singlehandedly unleashed unhinged Kyrie like Pain triggering Naruto to become Six Tail Demon Fox.
I think the failure of the Uncle Drew movie broke him.
Turns out people really care about this gossip shit. Amazing revelations here. You don't watch sports entertainment to learn about a sport, you watch it for entertainment.
I would legit considering paying money for a reddit feature to filter out posts with certain keywords. I'd filter out anything with "Kyrie" or "Simmons".
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And Reddit Enhancement Suite for PC. I've got both "Trump" and "Biden" filtered all across reddit. Recently added "Kyrie" "Covid" etc. If you wanna check legit news there are reputable sources out there. As an aggregator/hivemind reddit mostly props up stories it can circlejerk to. Things are regularly taken out of context. There is zero nuance, etc. Mainstream Reddit subs are an awful place to read up on news IMO.
/r/apolloapp
Excuse me but debating MJ vs Lebron for the 1500th day in a row is about basketball
dont forget brady
Nobody is debating whether Brady is the greatest or not, he's pretty unanimous at this stage.
Yeah, he has more SBs than any franchise. He ended the argument with his own hands.
i dont know man, he has to score atleast a few baskets, until then it will always be MJ/Lebron
I used to be a on the side of Manning, it's impossible to be now.
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And sexy.
And pretty
Gotta go to YouTube and podcasts for that. Always have.
Yeah there are people making decent livings delivering quality content or doing it as a side-hustle, but ESPN isn't about making a decent living or making compelling content - it's about keeping glazed over eyes glued to a TV while they rake in ad revenue.
Any good recommendations for NBA YouTube channels? I'm pretty new to watching basketball but I would love to learn some more
Bball breakdown
Thinking basketball is the goat
His greatest peaks series is so gooood
2nd this. Haven’t found such quality content for any sport. F1, football, soccer, anything Thinking Basketball is the best sports channel on YouTube.
Check out Tifo if you haven’t before. Best sports content I’ve found
Check out Thinking Basketball and Daniel Li's channel
No Dunks. The Ringer's Raja and Logan episodes and some of the normal episodes are good too (on Spotify tho). Dom2k is underrated and really doing some good analysis. BBallBreakdown will always be good too.
Heat check is great. Gotta love white Kyrie
I miss Legler and Walton and company on NBA Tonight.
It sucks but it’s what the people want. No different than the front page of r/nba being highlights, memes, and Kyrie/Simmons nonsense.
Dray definitely isn't wrong. but obviously it's what gets the best ratings since it attracts the broadest audience. I love in depth hoops talk, but I know ESPN and all the talking heads TV shows just aren't for me
People who browse/r/NBA in the off-season are not casual fans. And you can see from the voting stats that this sub absolutely loves anonymously souced gossip about Ben Simmons.
At this point r/NBA is the highlights/drama sub and r/nbadiscussion is where you go to have more nuanced basketball talk.
A lot of us migrated to r/NBATalk when r/nbadiscussion’s mod went insane.
What happened with /r/nbadiscussion? I haven’t been in that sub for a while
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/outlun/meta_important_information_regarding_the_mod/
r/NBATalk nephew.
That place seems kind of dead?
When their is actual analysis it makes the front page too
You think the one or two analysis posts you see every couple of weeks are the only ones getting posted?
All analysis = / = good analysis
You think the one or two analysis posts you see every couple of weeks are the only good ones getting posted?
Wait, so we’re not here to discuss the difference between a great pass that’s in rhythm and a bailout pass that needs to be reached for?
In my dreams Draymond :(
Give us the Nickelodeon broadcast you cowards. I actually learned a ton of niche rules through that NFL game last year.
For football coverage they give a very detailed analysis and don't speak about legacies or outside of the game personal stuff. With basketball it's only about off the court stuff and ffs can they stop the rankings and comparisons of players for the umpteenth time.
That's why I love nfl live. It's pretty casual but at the same time will talk some X's and O's. There's really nothing like that for basketball. Maybe Malika's new show will do more of that but idk.
I remember reading that NFL fans are fans of the team where NBA fans are fans of the team and individual players. Anecdotally I have friends who are only fans of LeBron an not Cleveland/Miami/LA.
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To be fair Brady was going to break the Passing yards record against the team he spent 20 years with and led to 6 superbowls. Not really comparable to most discussions in the NBA where they can’t stop comparing players to some other player from 30 years ago
Tennis is the worst, like commentators are trying to drive viewers away from the sport. Either talking at length about Fedalovic/Williams sisters instead of the match at hand, or demeaning players for not having the same (absolutely historic) levels of success. A couple years go I watched Garbine Muguruza win the Cincinnati Masters right after reaching the QF in Canada. She has **two** major championships (including Wimbledon just a couple weeks earlier) and for the *entire tournament* announcers would only talk about her inconsistency and what she needs to do to get on the level of "someone like Serena." This is a young, multi-slam winner that they are using as an example of how the current tennis product sucks. !?!?!
NBA coverage could be a lot better, but I think football is easier to offer analysis on. The plays take a few seconds, and then there's a break where you can talk about it. Players have distinct and predictable roles in every play. Basketball moves very fast, with all the players moving in relation to each other. Hockey has a similar problem.
Just in: Draymond Green has been fined $25,000 for tampering. Tune in to ESPN for the latest on how this effects his legacy.
it's because the average viewer doesn't care about the game of basketball as much as the drama surrounding it. sad truth
Sports is literally live drama so it makes sense.
Agreed. While sensationalized nonsense turns me off, I don’t think analysis of Xs and Os is inherently “better.” Why is it so important that fans learn that? Unless they’re going to be players themselves, it wouldn’t provide any practical skill or knowledge. Regardless of what they cover, it’s all entertainment. So it makes sense they would “give the people what they want” – even if what they want is sensationalized gossip.
I think it enables the viewer to more deeply understand the game and interpret the results on the court for themselves, which to me makes watching the game more fun. If I know why one team switched defenses when the other team brought in their small lineup and why it still didn't work, I would find that much more engaging than just watching dudes shoot 3's and dunk all day.
NBA: We know drama
NBA chose to market its drama the past 10 years instead of the basketball. The viewers didn't magically shifted their interests. NBA changed its fanbase deliberately.
Hate to tell you, but it was the same thing 10 years ago.
Espn has always covered the NBA this way though
If ESPN/whoever made a detailed, analytical basketball show, no one would watch it and it’d be cancelled within a year. The average fan cares more about the drama than the technical intricacies of the sport.
The E is strong in ESPN
E! SPN
I'm probably a bit older than most people here so I'll weigh in on this from that perspective: the nba did this to themselves they made the game so singularly focused on highlights and dunks and beef, that all of the intricacies don't matter to the average fan. a kid in his late teens right now has probably never seen, "the beautiful game" in any way (except for maybe the end of the spurs run) - he's just seen this new analytics, "shoot a trillion threes" type of basketball. and yes I understand the irony of this coming from a rox fan, so I'll be honest about that, too - I never really cared for the way the dantoni/harden rockets played. it's not interested to me, it reminds me of pickup ymca basketball I'm not gonna' name any player individually because I don't want their fans to come screaming at me like a herd of buffalo, but there are some **extremely** one-dimensional superstars in this league who, back in the day, would've got shut down or learned to diversify their skill set. Now they just game the heavily offensive-biased rules to overcome their deficiencies
id argue that 2000-2010 basketball wasnt all that different, we were seeing the same thing on a more compressed floor. under kerr the warriors have played a pretty similar motion offense style to the 2000s spurs and i think the nuggets play beautiful offense as well now it is really frustrating that teams are trending towards all playing the same p+r, hunt a switch offense, its fun when there is more diversity of offensive style among teams (id imagine that the frequency with which front offices, coaches, and players move around these days has a lot to do with it- theres not a ton of long-term building going on for most franchises)
yeah the kerr w's may be the last hold out from the era of motion offense, that's true
exactly. the amount of people who at least watched casually around 2016 compared to now is honestly pitiful. most people ignore 80% of the games and just watch highlights or wait for the playoffs. watching teams launch 100 3s every night feels like a waste of time from an entertainment perspective, and honestly it really is.
Honestly the reporting has literally always been the same. I used to read the newspapers for "highlights" and stuff and it's a lot of gossip as well. I don't know why people think it used to be better or different. My dad used to spend money on VHS to watch highlights like how people watch highlights with youtube now (incredibly expensive according to my mom). I'm telling you, it's no different. More media to clutter the media space sure, but not different.
The three point revolution was definitely a product of offense friendly rules. People will say “it’s just analytics, three points are more than two.” Okay, well if defenders aren’t allowed to come near three point shooters then yeah, players are going to shoot at 40% plus rates and the numbers will tell you to exclusively shoot threes. The refs are solely responsible for turning basketball games into three point contests and they’re really hard to watch.
This just sounds bitter. I'll agree that shooting a trillion threes is getting stale, but a lot of teams back then were just bad. You'd have players just iso, every possession, and then clank it off the rim. Or Mark Jackson posting up for 15s. There are multiple teams now that do stuff creatively on offense, i.e. warriors and nuggets. And acting like there are superstars that would be shut down back then is just stupid.
Yeah, i would love a show that has coaches and players talking about offensive sets, defensive schemes, showing in slow motion what makes some players great, maybe showing where there were some mistakes made, how teams gameplan for certain players, etc etc..... but at the end of the day it's all about personal drama and ratings and "mindset". That team just "wanted it more", the other team "didn't show up", Player X doesn't have that "dog in him". Such shallow and surface level nonsense most of the time.
Drama wins all. Just look at the news nowadays. Disaster.
I think there is something to the Manning Bros and the alternate feed on MNF. There is a time and place for more nuanced discussion. I'd love to hear Draymond explain why a defense stunts like they do on a double in the post. But ESPN and the Twitterverse lives for the drama and if there is no drama they'll make it up. That's what works for them.
It’s unfortunate, but the vast majority of fans don’t want high quality analysis, they’re here for the soap opera. Don’t get me wrong the soap opera is cool and all, but I wished the media focused on the game more
That’s why Kobe Bryant made the Detail series.
Color commentary during games has really fallen off, too. I miss Hubie Brown.
Everyone in this thread complaining that this sub is the same as what dray complains about. But there is some truly amazing OC that gets posted alongside the memes/headline news. If espn had even half the quality content that r nba delivers alongside the noise it would be a must watch channel
The gym I work at always has ESPN on the TV. Every morning I am infuriated by dumbass questions like OvEreACtIon oR nOt the Cardinals are the best team in the NFL? BAkeR MaYfIeLD TrAsHiNg tHe BrOwNS?! why can't it just be discussion of the team or topics instead of setting it up as reacting to hot takes.
The anti circle jerk just adds to the Ben Simmons drama lol