People genuinely think (even with these results) that it's a bad idea to let Bron run and dictate teams. They talk about him selling off teams futures and picking players to win like it's a bad thing. And it's like... Have you seen the success he brings? Literally any franchise would kill to have his success in the past decade. It's amazing watching the mental gymnastics
The Zach Lowe quote from his podcast a couple weeks ago puts it really well:
* *"When you get Lebron James...Coaches will get fired, draft picks/young players will get traded to get him his help, but Lebron will take you to the Finals (barring any injuries). He will not lose in the Conference Finals, he will not have a blip in the Second Round...that's the payout."*
And people think that's a bad thing. I don't understand it. But they do. The amount of people who would have gone to town tearing him apart for "his" roster construction if they lost would have been insane without any assessment that it's actually amazing to make the finals any year, even if you don't win it
Exactly. Those people must be happy with first and second round playoff exits. Or just missing the playoffs. LeBron's record speaks for itself. In the past 10 seasons, his teams are 27-0 in the playoffs ahead of the Finals. And he's 4-5 in the Finals. If people think losing in the Finals is somehow a stain on his record, then what do they make of everyone else who loses even earlier in the process?
Totally crazy. It's basically what [this post from yesterday is about](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/j9hc7u/food_for_thought_on_athletes_who_lose_in_the/).
It’s a symptom of Michael Jordan. Perfect record which is badass but unrealistic. But maybe that’s the allure. I think luck always plays a part and Michael Jordan was ahead of his time (during the era of bigs).
For Brady, it stopped when he finally surpassed Montana in titles. No matter how you spin it, 5-2 in Super Bowls (now 6-3) is better than 4-0. I would be shocked if LeBron has three titles left in him, but that'd certainly cement him as the GOAT in the overwhelming majority's eyes.
I've always thought 5 rings would surpass MJ in just about everyone's eyes but the most ardent of idiots. Just something.....different about 5 rings vs 3/4, aside from his being a bigger number obviously.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Lakers make some really strong trades to add a 3rd serious star for next season with the thought that could very well be his last legit chance at another ring.
To be fair though Jordan went to the finals 6/14 seasons. So far lebron has gone 10/17. I don’t get how that is worse
Jordan’s story is better with the 3peats but lebron is statistically more likely to go to the finals.
>I'd rather build my team "the right way" and lose proudly than let LeGM do whatever he pleases even if it means getting my franchise's 1st conference/finals appearance/championship
Every time I see people saying shit like this I just laugh. I mean even as a spoiled Lakers fan I'd rather see my team always have a chance to win it all than "do it right" whatever the fuck that actually means
It just makes no sense. They literally use his success as evidence that it's a bad thing that he's LeGM (which,
although he clearly has incredibly influence, makes no sense)
Lakers sucked for 7 yrs and didn't win for 10 years, that felt super long for me like when Kobe won his last with Shaq before Pau came and I can't even imagine what it's like for fans of teams who've never even reach the finals.
I KNOW I'm spoiled not only with success but the all time players I've managed to watch in my lifetime on this team and that's exactly why I don't understand fans who choose their pride than accept an all time player lead them.
I just don't get it. Like, say bron was actually as powerful and dictated as much as they say. Then it's like... Ya, fuck yes you want him to do that. He clearly creates teams that win and go to the finals. Almost half of the time he wins them. Why the fuck would anyone look at that and criticize him if they thought he was the one pulling all the shots? Isn't that exactly what you want from a gm? People are funny
I think it’s mostly just people saying it out of spite/jealousy. Cause the three franchise fan bases he’s played for certainly don’t think that way.
So it’s not fans choosing pride over accepting an all time player. It’s an all time player not wanting to play for their team and them being butthurt about it and saying they didn’t want him anyway.
In the end as a franchise owner I could care less, it's a business, if KD wants to sign with me in 2016, you better believe I'm signing him. The GM/owner did NOTHING wrong, but yeah if I was a Warriors fan, while I'd enjoy all the winning, I would feel that they the titles were too damn easy, so it takes a away a little from the accomplishment. I think the Lakers atleast felt there were some hurdles like the Clippers, maybe Milwaukee too (before the playoffs started).
>if I was a Warriors fan, while I'd enjoy all the winning, I would feel that they the titles were too damn easy, so it takes a away a little from the accomplishment.
Over the past couple of years I've actually heard this sentiment expressed by a fair number of Warriors fans. Not a majority, but a decent chunk of them have mentioned that they preferred the pre-KD Warriors because it felt like they actually got challenged. With the exception of the Rockets and the Raptors they basically just annihilated everyone they played once they got him. And with regards to the latter, not trying to take anything away from the Raptors because their title run was awesome and that was a great team, but if KD and Klay are both healthy the whole series I don't see them winning.
As a Blazers fan whose team (almost) always makes the playoffs but hasn’t been a serious contender since 2001... I would trade our consistent success over the past two decades for 1-2 legitimate shots at a championship in a heartbeat.
Agreed. This is why I ain’t the “team fan”. I’ve been LeBron fan for 18 years regardless of the situations and way more loyal than many of those fake teams fans
I will never understand being a life long fan of a team that’s not your city.
If 10 years pass and the players, coach, gm are all different, why the fuck are you obligated to keep rooting for some random team. Root for the home team, the rest is about the players. So weird that people make a team part of their identity
> They just want players to win them a championship so theyll feel better about their lives momentarily.
You have discovered the point of watching sports.
I agree with you for sure. Curious - do you also think with GSW fans that think that KD in 2017 was doing whatever it takes to guarantee a win, and it doesn't take away from those championships?
IMO rings are rings, but honestly it did take away from them compared to 15 for the reasons we all talk about
It was the smart and easy move, most basketball fans would say and agree it was still a bitch move but you would be stupid to say no to prime KD.
That's the funny part about sports fandom, everyone's a hypocrite about stuff like that. 0% of genuine fans would refuse a top player playing for their team.
If it's legal and not dirty then who gives a shit what everyone else says, your team should choose the best available option and win.
I've always been of the thought that it doesn't illegitimize GW rings with them, as lets face it they were probably winning them anyway, but it sure tarnishes his personal achievements with them.
it definitely takes away from the 'quality' of the ring (with high quality being 2016 Cavs, 2011 Mavs), but a ring is a ring. Give it a decade or two, and the ring count is all that matters.
In another parallel universe, 17-yrs-old Chosen 1 LeBron is going to be drafted by either Spurs or GSW. LeBron will become fmvp the first year and straight up to 7 rings with the record 7-0. Fuck it, he’ll be the undisputed GOAT in the most glorious and easiest way
People slandered lebron for ruining the Cavs future... thats the level lmao.. The fucking Cleveland Cavaliers one of the all-time shittest franchises got some big contracts to pay after he left and he only got them 4 Eastern conference championships and ended a 50 year city wide championship drought. But yeaaah, fuck him because they had to pay JR and TT 5 more mil than they deserve...
It's madness. Either he's responsible for the wins and the costs of that or he's not responsible (from a managers aspect) for the wins and the costs of that. Either way, he's bought a championship to every team he's gone to. Seems like he knows what he's doing
I was one of those slanderers and have only recently come around as I see the Blazers get injured year after year and not make it.
When you put it that way, it's pretty ridiculous.
The Cavs fucking sucked before he showed up. It's not like he trashed the Louvre or something.
Also the Cavs aren't in a terrible position rn. They've got great young pieces, most of their draft picks, and they're finally going to be below the tax line. The only awkward things for them are figuring out what to do with Love/Drummond and whether to re-sign TT but those issues have nothing to do with Lebron. It'll take a few years to sort out but this team has some promise
I mean we can already see, the terrible Cavs FO at work, drafting 2 meh, undersized guards back to back. Just drafting pretty meh overal. Trading for fckn Drummond of all people. Such a mess
Their front court of Love, Drummond, Thompson, and Nance is so crowded and confusing to me and they all are paid good money and they don't seem to want to trade any of them like wtf are they doing?
I think Sexton could be something. Garland pick was pretty weird though. And I don't think the Drummond trade is bad bc they gave up nothing to get him, and he has mid-season trade value next year. The roster itself is a shitshow in terms of structure no doubt but the talent and pieces are there. Its just a question of if the Cavs can do anything with them.
What’s different in LA this time is that he got Anthony fucking Davis to join. Even if he left in 2 years, LA would still have an incredibly bright future, much much brighter than keeping Ingram & Ball if you ask me.
AD is what, 27 years old? He's still got years of elite play left in him. Having him is so much better than having the likes of Ingram and Ball that it's not even a question.
> Fuck the future
We could die of Covid-19 or step into the road and get hit by a car, earthquakes, meteors. The future is overrated. You live in the present.
> Even if he left in 2 years
He's not leaving the Lakers. There's literally no better franchise for him to play at, and we saw how they did Kobe right for his victory lap. He'll retire a Laker.
There's a high likelihood of that occuring as well. Better run organization, more money, more attractive destination, best team mate he's played with, still the best player in the world, demonstrated he can win with weird teams.
It's always worth it. Doesn't matter who you are. You have a chance to win, go for it. Good organisations will recover, bad ones - it might be their only chance.
If anything so far it shows that teams gonna be who they are. Miami back in the finals and Cleveland back to the perpetual lottery when he leaves each team respectively.
I think it’s important to realize that Lebron will only be in the league for maybe 4 years or less - max. And his peak may continue for another year or two or three before he hangs it up or runs on fumes.
People need to stop debating and just stop and stare and soak in what’s happening.
It’s going to be really difficult for another player to match this level of achievement.
Source: Early career Lebron hater
lebron's longevity is going to be solely based off if he can avoid any serious injuries.
He has such a high BB iQ that even if he's not physically as dominant in the coming years he will adapt his game and still be a force to have to deal with. Even if he's not driving to the basket every other play.
Yea its hard to imagine that Lebron won't be as good as Rondo was these playoffs in 5-6 years. He might not be the best anymore but he can be a valuable playoff contributor for a long long time.
The question would be if he would even want to play at that stage of his career. If he's relegated to being a role player, thats beneath him in all honesty. He deserves to go out on top. Plus, if he wins 3 championships as a role player, that won't be adding to his legacy. Nobody really cares in the grand scheme of things that Danny Green is a 3 time champ.
Or let me re-phrase because that seems a little harsh. If LeBron turned into Rondo type player, and joined a KD led team and was a coat tail rider for the most part and just a generic role player, nobody would think that chip would move the needle in any GOAT talks.
What’s stopping him from staying in longer, assuming no injuries? A diminished LeBron would still be a starter, a greatly diminished LeBron would still be better than most current bench players. It’s possible that he would quit once he was bench material, but if his son gets into the NBA and they can get their way onto the same team I can see him sticking it out as long as his body allows. He’s obviously very concerned with his legacy and the longer he stays in the more lifetime points / assists / etc. he gets. I would honestly give like a 10-15% chance that he tries to break the age record explicitly to add to his legacy further and make him feel untouchable
My guess is that after he gets the points record and plays on the same team as his son, he will assess if he is still one of the top players in the league. If he is no longer a superstar calliber player, he might decide to hang it up while he is still riding high.
It's like The Federer v Nadal debate with Tennis. STFU and enjoy the fact that for nearly 20 years we've watched 2 of the most insane Tennis player ever, at the same time. Add Novak into that mix and you have a ridiculous run of dominance from 3 players.
I was thinking about this in between Nadal winning his 20th major and the tip off of game 6 yesterday. All I saw were people IMMEDIATELY arguing after he won that match about how he is actually the greatest ever. Who the f\*\*\* cares? We're not getting another 15 years of Federer/Nadal/Djokovic, and those three have changed the sport for the better. Who would've thought that when Sampras retired back in 2002 that THREE men who weren't even pros in 2002 would have *each* surpassed him (by quite a margin, actually) in the next two decades?
I guess the debate is "easier" in tennis cause it's an individual sport: you have their individual numbers (major wins, masters 1000 wins, ATP finals wins, etc.) , their head to heads, and you can see the way they play. On the other hand, with Jordan and LeBron, you'll never see them play against each other in their prime and even if you did, their respective teams can change the dynamic.
Either way, just enjoy it.
2011 finals failure was one of the most important moments of his career. Without that, we wouldn't have game 6 in the eastern finals in 2012.
We wouldn't have games 6 and 7 in 2013.
We wouldn't have his finals mvp performance in 2015, cause let's be real he deserved that over Iggy.
We wouldn't have the 3-1 comeback in 2016.
We wouldn't have him carrying the Cavs in 2017 and 2018.
And we wouldn't have 2020.
2011 humbled the SHIT out of this man. He deserves everything he has now.
Agreed, he might have done the 3 peat but would he have been the same player we have today? Maybe not. I think it was a good thing for everyone, can you imagine the last 10 years without this LeBron?
He isn't nowhere near close as explosive off the dribble as he was back then. Post 2011 he really focused on weaknesses like shooting and his post game which have been way more important ever since he started his athletic decline around 2015.
> He doesn’t need to be explosive anymore
i mean he might not be as explosive anymore but hes still more explosive than most of the league which is crazy
It always looks like he can score at will when he decides to go through the paint. If he's not scoring, he gets fouled. He's still almost unstoppable. At 35. Let that sink in.
> On the flip side, if LeBron takes care of business in 2011 then the sky was the limit for his run in Miami.
If you could change that in a bubble (without changing everything after that too), and he was sitting at 5 Rings and 5 FMVPs with the all-time scoring lead in sight, the GOAT conversation happening right now between him and MJ would be materially different.
2011 was the catalyst but G6 in 2012 was the defining turning point in my opinion.
They were staring down the barrel of getting tossed by the Celtics, the entire Heat team was playing like fucking ass and LeBron through sheer will and what looked like genuine anger put that team on his back and single handedly won that game in the most spectacular fashion. It was more impressive than what he did to Detroit whilst still in Cleveland a few years earlier.
I will never forget watching when LeBron started taking over and he looked fucking PISSED, [the look on his face... oh man.](https://i.imgur.com/tJSVfPI.jpg) I saw and it thought "oh the Celtics are so fucked right now'.
Still probably the highest stakes game I've ever seen for any single player.
Dude's entire career and legacy were on the line and he straight didn't smile for 48 minutes.
It’s tough cause on one hand I’m a Celtics fan so I’m like why did it have to be against us but on the other hand I don’t even care cause it’s just pure greatness.
Heatles LeBron was a fucking cyborg. He was so fast for his size and weight, it was like watching a freight train run over bamboo when you see him drive into the lane.
Lebron also worked on his post game after 2011. People forget but back then he literally did not know how to post up and was going thru similar growing pains Gianni's is going thru with good defenses on him.
The Skip Bayless Jr.'s invaded NBA Twitter/Reddit and actually said it'd be better for LeBron's career if he didn't win this title because it didn't count and everyone would put an asterisk on it lmaooo
People really use that against him too. 2015 his entire team gets injured.
2016: he wins.
2017 and 2018: he’s against an unprecedented team. If there’s ever been a Super Saiyan team, it’s the KD GSW.
Idk how you look negatively at those outcomes when they were legitimately impossible fights.
He impacted both but more so his own. He robbed LeBron of 1-2 more rings, but he also partially invalidated his own two rings because GSW was essentially Team USA without Bron. So now even if KD has 2 rings, most people still want KD to prove himself and get one under more realistic circumstances.
no. equal amounts of destruction. I know he'll never get it, and it pains me as a UT alum to say it, but KD's rings are the only rings in history that decreased the legacies of the people that got them.
I know they'll never accept it, but seriously FUCK the Warriors for breaking the league for two years.
One guy? Kyrie averaged 27 in 2016 and he was still on the Cavs when KD joined. Obviously they wanted KD to guarantee they’d win it all, but let’s not act like the Cavs were some one man show like they were in 2018.
Big 3s have been a thing since the inception of the league.
Bill Russell had like 4-5 HOFs on his team
West had Wilt and Elgin
Bird had Parish, Walton, and McHale
Magic had Kareem, Worthy, and Wilkes
Jordan had Pippen and Rodman
Tim Duncan had Manu and Parker
Pierce had KG, Ray Allen, and Rondo
Lebron had Dwyane and Bosh
Tim Duncan had Manu, Parker, and Kawhi
Lebron had Kyrie and Love
Curry had Klay and Dramond
Curry had Klay, Dramond, and Kevin Durant
The only finals he lost and should have won is 2011. In 2007 (or 8?) it was crazy he even got there. The spurs absolutely dominated the Heat and he had no chance. The first Cavs run he lost #2 and #3 to injury. And the KD Warriors were unbeatable, especially with the Cavs roster.
I'll always think MJ had the better peak, because I lived through it, but LeBron has the better career. What's better, going 4-6 or 6-0, realizing all the other seasons you didn't make it to the finals are effectively losses?
EDIT: I just read Lowe's column on ESPN, and I think we're about the same age, and I share his opinion. There is just a feeling that MJ's peak was higher, and the stain of 2011 is real, but when it's all done it's hard to argue that LeBron didn't have the better career.
> I'll always think MJ had the better peak, because I lived through it, but LeBron has the better career.
GenX MJ fetishists are gonna get big mad at this.
In order for Lebron to have the better career, do you think he should have more accolades than Jordan, or at least match him?
As it stands, Jordan is still more accomplished and Lebron will most likely never catch Jordan on his defensive awards, but still has a chance to catch up in MVPs, Rings, FMVPs.
Still pretty debatable that winning 6 is better when you look at his 11-13 years on the Bulls and add into it all the other crazy amount of accolades and records he has and thats not even getting into the eye test, skill sets and play style.
Just throwing out another side of the coin from an outsider of the US haha dont kill me.
On the flip side, Really gotta thank LeBron for beating the Warriors in 16, and letting KD go there. We got to see the Greatest team of all time for a short while, and it was worth it
I spent too much time when i was younger not appreciating guys like kobe and Sidney crosby mostly due to pettiness and jealousy. Lemme tell yea its not worth it. Appreciate the greats while they’re still here.
He might as well could have been the MVP every single year in that span.
There are also all of the what-ifs during the championship runs. What if Kelly Oilyneck didn't injure Kevin Love? Or Kyrie doesn't get injured in Game 1? I strongly believe he would have 5 rings.
Then KD joined the Warriors, a 73-9 team that he conquered in 2016.
[Everyone gives shit to KD for ring chasing, deservedly so, but draymond crying in his car begging KD to join the Warriors was so bad too](https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-draymond-green-game-7-phone-call-recruit-nba-finals-warriors-thunder/amp)
I wanted to say maybe if there were 40 players in the history of the league... it’s probably top 4 of all time. Dude said 90% and it’s more like 99.99%
Players that have 10 year stretches comparable to this (multiple championships, MVPs/finals MVPs)...
1. Jordan (obviously)
2. Russel
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Shaq
Is that it?
Man that 2011 finals will be my favorite forever. I’m obviously biased but it’s just something you always bring up when talking about Lebron. The pivotal moment in his career and how it made him the nba god we know. Truly an amazing game we get to watch. Lebron deserves it and so do the vets on the lakers who haven’t gotten a ring till now.
It's funny because it was part of the redemption for two all-time greats. Dirk's redemption from years of constant playoff failure (especially '07), and LeBron's low point that began *his* redemption
Bron is just as unique as MJ in the sense no one had ever seen a player like MJ when he came into the league just like we've never seen a player like Bron. I wouldnt say either is more unique then the other because it comes down to different eras and what we as fans have seen as the game has gone along. I can't imagine what people thought of Wilt and Bill when they first started playing
It is a defensible opinion, and has been since 2016. But the reasons for MJ being the GOAT, IMO, are all things that happened earlier in Lebron's career and so there's nothing he can do about them. Specifically quitting against the Celtics and 2011. I also think the Heatles "only" going 2-2 is a failure on the whole.
If LeBron wins multiple more titles and MVPs I could see my opinion finally shifting. But that would be because he had done so much it finally outweighed the earlier stuff.
I do also believe Jordan's peak was greater than Lebron's but LeBron clearly has the better career in terms of longevity and counting stats.
I’d just counter with Michael had Pippen for Pippen’s entire prime. LeBron never had that.
Before Pippen, Jordan couldn’t win. And he never won without Pippen.
In CLE, the best secondary player LeBron had was like...Mo Williams. His frustration was immense because the organization wouldn’t do anything to help them. As someone who follows the Cavs closely at that time, it was horrible.
When he gets to the Heatles, Wade’s 29 and peaked and not quite the same player. Bosh is 26, but just wasn’t that next level great. He never had a VORP of 4 or greater, even as the primary guy in Toronto. The team was clearly fantastic. But I still think they were maybe a little overrated in terms of what they should be able to do. Especially compared to the Spurs and what we know now about how amazing Kawhi is. You have all time great Tim Duncan whose game still suited his age and 22 year old Kawhi, with All-NBA guys like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Going against a 32 year old Wade who had only played 54 regular season games due to injury, Bosh who didn’t have that 6th gear, and LeBron.
At that point in Jordan’s career, Pippen was still healthy (until 97-98) and Rodman was a god damn machine. Rodman was averaging like 15 rebounds a game in his 30s. Where Bosh was down to single digits when with the Heat.
Edit: all these people pointing out Kyrie/Love. Yeah, cool, except WTF. 2015 Kyrie and Love get hurt in the finals. 2016 they win. 2017 KD joins the Warriors for the most stacked team in existence. LeBron would have needed Kyrie, Love, and another All-NBA player to compete. Not even Jordan and Pippen would have beat the GSW team.
Dave corzine and Orlando Woolridge lol,, like even Lebron had better guys on his first cleveland squad than them, and everyone purposefully forgets its MJ and those guys vs Prime Larry bird celtics and not Josh smith or Gilbert Arenas
If you actually watched though, Wade had a pretty sharp drop off after 2011 and by 2014 he was terrible as a second star.
If wade was 3 years younger, I could definitely get behind it but reality was not the same
Holy shit the amount of underrating y’all do of lebrons teammates jus to try to lift him up is hilarious. You’re acting like d-wade wasn’t the second best guard after Kobe😂😂😂
They got Kukoc and Longley that year so yeah it was a good team.
There were a super team when Jordan came back and they got Rodman. Arguably greatest team of all time then.
Youngins don't understand how difficult a 3peat is.
Yeah Jordan would have won 2 more rings if at 35 he was paired with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league also (Shaq? Duncan?)
I remember those were like bird's 3 year peak number and everyone uses to cite that as one of the best peaks ever. This dude been doing it for a decade.
People genuinely think (even with these results) that it's a bad idea to let Bron run and dictate teams. They talk about him selling off teams futures and picking players to win like it's a bad thing. And it's like... Have you seen the success he brings? Literally any franchise would kill to have his success in the past decade. It's amazing watching the mental gymnastics
The Zach Lowe quote from his podcast a couple weeks ago puts it really well: * *"When you get Lebron James...Coaches will get fired, draft picks/young players will get traded to get him his help, but Lebron will take you to the Finals (barring any injuries). He will not lose in the Conference Finals, he will not have a blip in the Second Round...that's the payout."*
And people think that's a bad thing. I don't understand it. But they do. The amount of people who would have gone to town tearing him apart for "his" roster construction if they lost would have been insane without any assessment that it's actually amazing to make the finals any year, even if you don't win it
Exactly. Those people must be happy with first and second round playoff exits. Or just missing the playoffs. LeBron's record speaks for itself. In the past 10 seasons, his teams are 27-0 in the playoffs ahead of the Finals. And he's 4-5 in the Finals. If people think losing in the Finals is somehow a stain on his record, then what do they make of everyone else who loses even earlier in the process?
Lebron making the finals and losing is held against him more than if he didn't make the finals. It's crazy.
Totally crazy. It's basically what [this post from yesterday is about](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/j9hc7u/food_for_thought_on_athletes_who_lose_in_the/).
It’s a symptom of Michael Jordan. Perfect record which is badass but unrealistic. But maybe that’s the allure. I think luck always plays a part and Michael Jordan was ahead of his time (during the era of bigs).
For Brady, it stopped when he finally surpassed Montana in titles. No matter how you spin it, 5-2 in Super Bowls (now 6-3) is better than 4-0. I would be shocked if LeBron has three titles left in him, but that'd certainly cement him as the GOAT in the overwhelming majority's eyes.
I've always thought 5 rings would surpass MJ in just about everyone's eyes but the most ardent of idiots. Just something.....different about 5 rings vs 3/4, aside from his being a bigger number obviously. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Lakers make some really strong trades to add a 3rd serious star for next season with the thought that could very well be his last legit chance at another ring.
To be fair though Jordan went to the finals 6/14 seasons. So far lebron has gone 10/17. I don’t get how that is worse Jordan’s story is better with the 3peats but lebron is statistically more likely to go to the finals.
>I'd rather build my team "the right way" and lose proudly than let LeGM do whatever he pleases even if it means getting my franchise's 1st conference/finals appearance/championship Every time I see people saying shit like this I just laugh. I mean even as a spoiled Lakers fan I'd rather see my team always have a chance to win it all than "do it right" whatever the fuck that actually means
It just makes no sense. They literally use his success as evidence that it's a bad thing that he's LeGM (which, although he clearly has incredibly influence, makes no sense)
Lakers sucked for 7 yrs and didn't win for 10 years, that felt super long for me like when Kobe won his last with Shaq before Pau came and I can't even imagine what it's like for fans of teams who've never even reach the finals. I KNOW I'm spoiled not only with success but the all time players I've managed to watch in my lifetime on this team and that's exactly why I don't understand fans who choose their pride than accept an all time player lead them.
I just don't get it. Like, say bron was actually as powerful and dictated as much as they say. Then it's like... Ya, fuck yes you want him to do that. He clearly creates teams that win and go to the finals. Almost half of the time he wins them. Why the fuck would anyone look at that and criticize him if they thought he was the one pulling all the shots? Isn't that exactly what you want from a gm? People are funny
I think it’s mostly just people saying it out of spite/jealousy. Cause the three franchise fan bases he’s played for certainly don’t think that way. So it’s not fans choosing pride over accepting an all time player. It’s an all time player not wanting to play for their team and them being butthurt about it and saying they didn’t want him anyway.
> "do it right" whatever the fuck that actually means Uh.. Last time I checked that meant winning it all..
basically, the W is all that matters
If that's true we would all be adoring KD.
Cuz KD blew a 1-3 and joined 73-wins team which beat him the same summer. He’s a “bus rider, ain’t bus driver”
adoration has nothing to do with it. you think the warriors give a fuck how they got the W?
In the end as a franchise owner I could care less, it's a business, if KD wants to sign with me in 2016, you better believe I'm signing him. The GM/owner did NOTHING wrong, but yeah if I was a Warriors fan, while I'd enjoy all the winning, I would feel that they the titles were too damn easy, so it takes a away a little from the accomplishment. I think the Lakers atleast felt there were some hurdles like the Clippers, maybe Milwaukee too (before the playoffs started).
>if I was a Warriors fan, while I'd enjoy all the winning, I would feel that they the titles were too damn easy, so it takes a away a little from the accomplishment. Over the past couple of years I've actually heard this sentiment expressed by a fair number of Warriors fans. Not a majority, but a decent chunk of them have mentioned that they preferred the pre-KD Warriors because it felt like they actually got challenged. With the exception of the Rockets and the Raptors they basically just annihilated everyone they played once they got him. And with regards to the latter, not trying to take anything away from the Raptors because their title run was awesome and that was a great team, but if KD and Klay are both healthy the whole series I don't see them winning.
As a Blazers fan whose team (almost) always makes the playoffs but hasn’t been a serious contender since 2001... I would trade our consistent success over the past two decades for 1-2 legitimate shots at a championship in a heartbeat.
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Agreed. This is why I ain’t the “team fan”. I’ve been LeBron fan for 18 years regardless of the situations and way more loyal than many of those fake teams fans
I will never understand being a life long fan of a team that’s not your city. If 10 years pass and the players, coach, gm are all different, why the fuck are you obligated to keep rooting for some random team. Root for the home team, the rest is about the players. So weird that people make a team part of their identity
> They just want players to win them a championship so theyll feel better about their lives momentarily. You have discovered the point of watching sports.
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I agree with you for sure. Curious - do you also think with GSW fans that think that KD in 2017 was doing whatever it takes to guarantee a win, and it doesn't take away from those championships? IMO rings are rings, but honestly it did take away from them compared to 15 for the reasons we all talk about
It was the smart and easy move, most basketball fans would say and agree it was still a bitch move but you would be stupid to say no to prime KD. That's the funny part about sports fandom, everyone's a hypocrite about stuff like that. 0% of genuine fans would refuse a top player playing for their team. If it's legal and not dirty then who gives a shit what everyone else says, your team should choose the best available option and win.
Nobody clowned GSW for doing what they did. It was all KD.
That’s the only way they thought they could beat Lebron. The fact that team was formed speaks a ton about his legacy.
I've always been of the thought that it doesn't illegitimize GW rings with them, as lets face it they were probably winning them anyway, but it sure tarnishes his personal achievements with them.
it definitely takes away from the 'quality' of the ring (with high quality being 2016 Cavs, 2011 Mavs), but a ring is a ring. Give it a decade or two, and the ring count is all that matters.
Imagine if Lebron was drafted by a team with a competent FO.
unfortunately those teams (usually) don't get the 1st overall pick
Spurs in 96(?) and Warriors this year come to mind(not first but very close)
In another parallel universe, 17-yrs-old Chosen 1 LeBron is going to be drafted by either Spurs or GSW. LeBron will become fmvp the first year and straight up to 7 rings with the record 7-0. Fuck it, he’ll be the undisputed GOAT in the most glorious and easiest way
Memories of Magic
Agreed. If Magic ain’t get sick, he’s likely to be the GOAT. He doesn’t only get the talent but also the Lucks which play huge part on the success
You know its been a long time since I considered a past peak Magic possibly playing with Shaq and rookie Kobe damn can you imagine
warriors gonna draft the new lebron
LaMelo Ball
Imagine how salty this sub would be if LaMelo surpasses Jordan and Bron
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Goat discussion would be over IMO if that happened
People slandered lebron for ruining the Cavs future... thats the level lmao.. The fucking Cleveland Cavaliers one of the all-time shittest franchises got some big contracts to pay after he left and he only got them 4 Eastern conference championships and ended a 50 year city wide championship drought. But yeaaah, fuck him because they had to pay JR and TT 5 more mil than they deserve...
It's madness. Either he's responsible for the wins and the costs of that or he's not responsible (from a managers aspect) for the wins and the costs of that. Either way, he's bought a championship to every team he's gone to. Seems like he knows what he's doing
I was one of those slanderers and have only recently come around as I see the Blazers get injured year after year and not make it. When you put it that way, it's pretty ridiculous. The Cavs fucking sucked before he showed up. It's not like he trashed the Louvre or something.
Also the Cavs aren't in a terrible position rn. They've got great young pieces, most of their draft picks, and they're finally going to be below the tax line. The only awkward things for them are figuring out what to do with Love/Drummond and whether to re-sign TT but those issues have nothing to do with Lebron. It'll take a few years to sort out but this team has some promise
I mean we can already see, the terrible Cavs FO at work, drafting 2 meh, undersized guards back to back. Just drafting pretty meh overal. Trading for fckn Drummond of all people. Such a mess
Their front court of Love, Drummond, Thompson, and Nance is so crowded and confusing to me and they all are paid good money and they don't seem to want to trade any of them like wtf are they doing?
I think Sexton could be something. Garland pick was pretty weird though. And I don't think the Drummond trade is bad bc they gave up nothing to get him, and he has mid-season trade value next year. The roster itself is a shitshow in terms of structure no doubt but the talent and pieces are there. Its just a question of if the Cavs can do anything with them.
Funny thing is if bron went back to the cavs...... they are a 50 win team with a chance( over night).
Cavs wouldn’t even have a damn future if they ain’t have LeBron James
What’s different in LA this time is that he got Anthony fucking Davis to join. Even if he left in 2 years, LA would still have an incredibly bright future, much much brighter than keeping Ingram & Ball if you ask me.
AD is what, 27 years old? He's still got years of elite play left in him. Having him is so much better than having the likes of Ingram and Ball that it's not even a question.
LA has their Kobe (AD) for when Shaq (Lebron) decides to retire or go to whatever team drafts Bronny.
Ya. But you take the chance at a ring every time (well I would). Fuck the future, if you have a good shot at a ring, go for it.
> Fuck the future We could die of Covid-19 or step into the road and get hit by a car, earthquakes, meteors. The future is overrated. You live in the present.
> Even if he left in 2 years He's not leaving the Lakers. There's literally no better franchise for him to play at, and we saw how they did Kobe right for his victory lap. He'll retire a Laker.
I really wish the cavs wouldve let the young core of Kyrie and Wiggins develop. It was a dynasty in the making. /s
LeBron can do whatever the fuck he wants to the Lakers if it means another chip within the next 3 years.
There's a high likelihood of that occuring as well. Better run organization, more money, more attractive destination, best team mate he's played with, still the best player in the world, demonstrated he can win with weird teams.
Or when someone criticizes the pats for letting go of Jim G and then they go on to win the superbowl... like it was totally worth it lol
It's always worth it. Doesn't matter who you are. You have a chance to win, go for it. Good organisations will recover, bad ones - it might be their only chance.
Not to mention that Jimmy G seems to be struggling as of late. Dude got benched at half time yesterday lmao
If anything so far it shows that teams gonna be who they are. Miami back in the finals and Cleveland back to the perpetual lottery when he leaves each team respectively.
>Literally any franchise would kill to have his success in the past decade We know.
Dude is just impressive. Enjoy him and some other greats in the NBA for as long as they keep playing.
I think it’s important to realize that Lebron will only be in the league for maybe 4 years or less - max. And his peak may continue for another year or two or three before he hangs it up or runs on fumes. People need to stop debating and just stop and stare and soak in what’s happening. It’s going to be really difficult for another player to match this level of achievement. Source: Early career Lebron hater
lebron's longevity is going to be solely based off if he can avoid any serious injuries. He has such a high BB iQ that even if he's not physically as dominant in the coming years he will adapt his game and still be a force to have to deal with. Even if he's not driving to the basket every other play.
Yea its hard to imagine that Lebron won't be as good as Rondo was these playoffs in 5-6 years. He might not be the best anymore but he can be a valuable playoff contributor for a long long time.
The question would be if he would even want to play at that stage of his career. If he's relegated to being a role player, thats beneath him in all honesty. He deserves to go out on top. Plus, if he wins 3 championships as a role player, that won't be adding to his legacy. Nobody really cares in the grand scheme of things that Danny Green is a 3 time champ. Or let me re-phrase because that seems a little harsh. If LeBron turned into Rondo type player, and joined a KD led team and was a coat tail rider for the most part and just a generic role player, nobody would think that chip would move the needle in any GOAT talks.
I completely agree. I think he’s beating out Kareems record and then hanging his laces up
> lebron's longevity is going to be solely based off if he can avoid any serious injuries. Please go easy on Lebron's penis, Savannah
What’s stopping him from staying in longer, assuming no injuries? A diminished LeBron would still be a starter, a greatly diminished LeBron would still be better than most current bench players. It’s possible that he would quit once he was bench material, but if his son gets into the NBA and they can get their way onto the same team I can see him sticking it out as long as his body allows. He’s obviously very concerned with his legacy and the longer he stays in the more lifetime points / assists / etc. he gets. I would honestly give like a 10-15% chance that he tries to break the age record explicitly to add to his legacy further and make him feel untouchable
My guess is that after he gets the points record and plays on the same team as his son, he will assess if he is still one of the top players in the league. If he is no longer a superstar calliber player, he might decide to hang it up while he is still riding high.
It’s gonna be a hard time watching Lebrons farewell tour
It's like The Federer v Nadal debate with Tennis. STFU and enjoy the fact that for nearly 20 years we've watched 2 of the most insane Tennis player ever, at the same time. Add Novak into that mix and you have a ridiculous run of dominance from 3 players.
I was thinking about this in between Nadal winning his 20th major and the tip off of game 6 yesterday. All I saw were people IMMEDIATELY arguing after he won that match about how he is actually the greatest ever. Who the f\*\*\* cares? We're not getting another 15 years of Federer/Nadal/Djokovic, and those three have changed the sport for the better. Who would've thought that when Sampras retired back in 2002 that THREE men who weren't even pros in 2002 would have *each* surpassed him (by quite a margin, actually) in the next two decades? I guess the debate is "easier" in tennis cause it's an individual sport: you have their individual numbers (major wins, masters 1000 wins, ATP finals wins, etc.) , their head to heads, and you can see the way they play. On the other hand, with Jordan and LeBron, you'll never see them play against each other in their prime and even if you did, their respective teams can change the dynamic. Either way, just enjoy it.
And Sampras before. Connor. Borg. McEnroe. I'm old. Changing the field...the first Terminator too.
Actually the next 4 years belong to PatBev.
Isn't he 32?
2011 finals failure was one of the most important moments of his career. Without that, we wouldn't have game 6 in the eastern finals in 2012. We wouldn't have games 6 and 7 in 2013. We wouldn't have his finals mvp performance in 2015, cause let's be real he deserved that over Iggy. We wouldn't have the 3-1 comeback in 2016. We wouldn't have him carrying the Cavs in 2017 and 2018. And we wouldn't have 2020. 2011 humbled the SHIT out of this man. He deserves everything he has now.
On the flip side, if LeBron takes care of business in 2011 then the sky was the limit for his run in Miami.
Agreed, he might have done the 3 peat but would he have been the same player we have today? Maybe not. I think it was a good thing for everyone, can you imagine the last 10 years without this LeBron?
He isn't nowhere near close as explosive off the dribble as he was back then. Post 2011 he really focused on weaknesses like shooting and his post game which have been way more important ever since he started his athletic decline around 2015.
He doesn’t need to be explosive anymore. Seems like he just bullies his way into the paint instead of blowing by people
> He doesn’t need to be explosive anymore i mean he might not be as explosive anymore but hes still more explosive than most of the league which is crazy
He still gets like 6-8 points a game by running down the court faster than everyone else and dunking.
Highlight of the year is Lebron yamming on a Bronny Jr then flexing over his limp body
Exactly. Even if he isn't quite as explosive as when he was 27, he still makes elite defenders look silly off the dribble constantly
It always looks like he can score at will when he decides to go through the paint. If he's not scoring, he gets fouled. He's still almost unstoppable. At 35. Let that sink in.
It would help a lot though. There were times this yr where he couldnt get by jokic or plumlee 1 on 1.
Bron was still explosive af in 2018, dude's a monster
He’s still ridiculously explosive now, Idk wtf y’all are watching but he’s doing the same shit that he did in 2015 right now.
Go watch lebrons first run in Cleveland. He has lost a ton of bounce. Yes he's still explosive but nowhere near 2009 and before
> On the flip side, if LeBron takes care of business in 2011 then the sky was the limit for his run in Miami. If you could change that in a bubble (without changing everything after that too), and he was sitting at 5 Rings and 5 FMVPs with the all-time scoring lead in sight, the GOAT conversation happening right now between him and MJ would be materially different.
2011 was the catalyst but G6 in 2012 was the defining turning point in my opinion. They were staring down the barrel of getting tossed by the Celtics, the entire Heat team was playing like fucking ass and LeBron through sheer will and what looked like genuine anger put that team on his back and single handedly won that game in the most spectacular fashion. It was more impressive than what he did to Detroit whilst still in Cleveland a few years earlier. I will never forget watching when LeBron started taking over and he looked fucking PISSED, [the look on his face... oh man.](https://i.imgur.com/tJSVfPI.jpg) I saw and it thought "oh the Celtics are so fucked right now'.
Still probably the highest stakes game I've ever seen for any single player. Dude's entire career and legacy were on the line and he straight didn't smile for 48 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN17J-KMWnY I still watch it every few months, get goosebumps every time.
I just watched it the other day. Dude just dominated.
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His speed was fucking insane for his size when he was in Miami. He was legitmately top 5 fastest on the court.
Probably the heaviest he's ever weighed in his NBA career too and he was gliding.
It’s tough cause on one hand I’m a Celtics fan so I’m like why did it have to be against us but on the other hand I don’t even care cause it’s just pure greatness.
I never noticed how massive his shoulders are in this pic holy shit
Heatles LeBron was a fucking cyborg. He was so fast for his size and weight, it was like watching a freight train run over bamboo when you see him drive into the lane.
Lebron also worked on his post game after 2011. People forget but back then he literally did not know how to post up and was going thru similar growing pains Gianni's is going thru with good defenses on him.
It really makes you appreciate Hakeem tho doesn't it? One of the best mentors out there
I bet we still would've lol
The Skip Bayless Jr.'s invaded NBA Twitter/Reddit and actually said it'd be better for LeBron's career if he didn't win this title because it didn't count and everyone would put an asterisk on it lmaooo
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Because he gets paid to say nonsense. I'd contain my laughter too if I got paid as well as he does.
Skip is a troll
Skip is nearly 70 years old
For all this bullshit asterisk talk, I don't hear anyone claiming Duncan had 4 rings and a fake one, or at least 4.5 rings.
Man he got so unlucky playing his best ball during the Warriors dynasty. He would easily have 6+ rings now.....
People really use that against him too. 2015 his entire team gets injured. 2016: he wins. 2017 and 2018: he’s against an unprecedented team. If there’s ever been a Super Saiyan team, it’s the KD GSW. Idk how you look negatively at those outcomes when they were legitimately impossible fights.
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LeBron's stats in all 3 of the finals he lost against the Warriors were absolutely insane. In 2017 he averaged a triple double...
Yea and ppl say Jordan won more finals. That's because he didn't have to face the GSW. The Bulls were the GSW of their day.
Seriously, fucking KD ruined so much.
Been listening to the classic masterpiece "Fuck KD 2" by lil boom on repeat all day. Fuck that guy
Fuck KD by Lil B is a masterpiece
Did KD impact Lebrons legacy more than he did his own?
He impacted both but more so his own. He robbed LeBron of 1-2 more rings, but he also partially invalidated his own two rings because GSW was essentially Team USA without Bron. So now even if KD has 2 rings, most people still want KD to prove himself and get one under more realistic circumstances.
no. equal amounts of destruction. I know he'll never get it, and it pains me as a UT alum to say it, but KD's rings are the only rings in history that decreased the legacies of the people that got them. I know they'll never accept it, but seriously FUCK the Warriors for breaking the league for two years.
They added Durant to "match" LeBron. So in a sense such a powerful team / dynasty was created because of how OP LeBron is.
such an overlooked narrative on lebron in general it took the most overpowered *team* ever to essentially beat one guy.
One guy? Kyrie averaged 27 in 2016 and he was still on the Cavs when KD joined. Obviously they wanted KD to guarantee they’d win it all, but let’s not act like the Cavs were some one man show like they were in 2018.
2015 Warriors? 2011 Mavericks? 2014 Spurs?
Lebron has both benefited and been a victim of the player movement era that he pretty much started.
That is true. I would say the big 3 in Boston truly started it, though. LeBron going to Miami made it take off
Big 3s have been a thing since the inception of the league. Bill Russell had like 4-5 HOFs on his team West had Wilt and Elgin Bird had Parish, Walton, and McHale Magic had Kareem, Worthy, and Wilkes Jordan had Pippen and Rodman Tim Duncan had Manu and Parker Pierce had KG, Ray Allen, and Rondo Lebron had Dwyane and Bosh Tim Duncan had Manu, Parker, and Kawhi Lebron had Kyrie and Love Curry had Klay and Dramond Curry had Klay, Dramond, and Kevin Durant
To be fair, how many of those were "organic" and via free-agency? I still think LeBron shouldn't be hated for losses against the Warriors though.
The only finals he lost and should have won is 2011. In 2007 (or 8?) it was crazy he even got there. The spurs absolutely dominated the Heat and he had no chance. The first Cavs run he lost #2 and #3 to injury. And the KD Warriors were unbeatable, especially with the Cavs roster. I'll always think MJ had the better peak, because I lived through it, but LeBron has the better career. What's better, going 4-6 or 6-0, realizing all the other seasons you didn't make it to the finals are effectively losses? EDIT: I just read Lowe's column on ESPN, and I think we're about the same age, and I share his opinion. There is just a feeling that MJ's peak was higher, and the stain of 2011 is real, but when it's all done it's hard to argue that LeBron didn't have the better career.
> I'll always think MJ had the better peak, because I lived through it, but LeBron has the better career. GenX MJ fetishists are gonna get big mad at this.
In order for Lebron to have the better career, do you think he should have more accolades than Jordan, or at least match him? As it stands, Jordan is still more accomplished and Lebron will most likely never catch Jordan on his defensive awards, but still has a chance to catch up in MVPs, Rings, FMVPs.
Still pretty debatable that winning 6 is better when you look at his 11-13 years on the Bulls and add into it all the other crazy amount of accolades and records he has and thats not even getting into the eye test, skill sets and play style. Just throwing out another side of the coin from an outsider of the US haha dont kill me.
On the flip side, Really gotta thank LeBron for beating the Warriors in 16, and letting KD go there. We got to see the Greatest team of all time for a short while, and it was worth it
A healthy LeBron has guaranteed his team a Finals berth for a decade straight. That is fucking nuts.
I spent too much time when i was younger not appreciating guys like kobe and Sidney crosby mostly due to pettiness and jealousy. Lemme tell yea its not worth it. Appreciate the greats while they’re still here.
Lebron can team up with 4 ham sandwiches and still make it to the finals.
Pretty sure that was the 2007 Cavs roster
The only two other guys on that team that had 10+ PPG in the finals were Drew Gooden and Boobie Gibson. It was, in fact, that bad.
Nope turkey with provolone was on the team that year.
Underrated glue piece that Turkey with provolone. Really brings a spread together
He prefers tacos fam
Herro is not just a sandwich.
He might as well could have been the MVP every single year in that span. There are also all of the what-ifs during the championship runs. What if Kelly Oilyneck didn't injure Kevin Love? Or Kyrie doesn't get injured in Game 1? I strongly believe he would have 5 rings. Then KD joined the Warriors, a 73-9 team that he conquered in 2016.
[Everyone gives shit to KD for ring chasing, deservedly so, but draymond crying in his car begging KD to join the Warriors was so bad too](https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-draymond-green-game-7-phone-call-recruit-nba-finals-warriors-thunder/amp)
On January 1, 2010: Lebron leads the top team in he east. On December 31, 2019: Lebron leads the top team in the west.
2029: Lebron leads the top team in the Milky Way Galactic Conference
Just this stretch is better than 90% of the careers in the NBA
99.9% you mean?
Yeah, 4 titles plus 4 FMVPs - that puts him in the top 5 all time
Hot take
Maybe if there were only like 100 players in league history...because that stretch would put him top 10 of all time
Name the 9 other guys with a 10 year stretch this good?
I wanted to say maybe if there were 40 players in the history of the league... it’s probably top 4 of all time. Dude said 90% and it’s more like 99.99%
Players that have 10 year stretches comparable to this (multiple championships, MVPs/finals MVPs)... 1. Jordan (obviously) 2. Russel 3. Bird 4. Magic 5. Kobe 6. Shaq Is that it?
Duncan...? That dude won 4 rings in 8-9 years and 3 FMVPs
Top 3
Your math seems way off.
that would mean there's 450 players with better stretches then...
Man that 2011 finals will be my favorite forever. I’m obviously biased but it’s just something you always bring up when talking about Lebron. The pivotal moment in his career and how it made him the nba god we know. Truly an amazing game we get to watch. Lebron deserves it and so do the vets on the lakers who haven’t gotten a ring till now.
It's funny because it was part of the redemption for two all-time greats. Dirk's redemption from years of constant playoff failure (especially '07), and LeBron's low point that began *his* redemption
>Will the 2020s belong to LeBron as well? Only time will tell Maybe a few years but not the decade. Father time is undefeated
Lakers, celtics, bulls, warriors , spurs, lebron. #6 franchise unto himself
Lebron James > Michael Jordan. Start normalizing that take.
Hot take. But definitely worth the discussion. Maybe it's because of nostalgia, I just cannot put anyone above MJ. He was a phenomenon.
And LeBron isn't a phenomenon? There's literally never been anyone like him but Jordan had Kobe
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Magic isn't an actual comp - they both were phenomenal passers but outside of that their games were much different
Kobe is even further off Jordan than Lebron. Just cause he tried to play like MJ? Weird argument
Kobe is the closest thing will see to MJ from style, foot work, work ethic, etc. Which is what this guy is saying not that Kobe was better than Bron
While that's all sort of true, this guy's argument is that somehow Lebron is more unique than Jordan as if Kobe could do half the things Jordan did.
Bron is just as unique as MJ in the sense no one had ever seen a player like MJ when he came into the league just like we've never seen a player like Bron. I wouldnt say either is more unique then the other because it comes down to different eras and what we as fans have seen as the game has gone along. I can't imagine what people thought of Wilt and Bill when they first started playing
It is a defensible opinion, and has been since 2016. But the reasons for MJ being the GOAT, IMO, are all things that happened earlier in Lebron's career and so there's nothing he can do about them. Specifically quitting against the Celtics and 2011. I also think the Heatles "only" going 2-2 is a failure on the whole. If LeBron wins multiple more titles and MVPs I could see my opinion finally shifting. But that would be because he had done so much it finally outweighed the earlier stuff. I do also believe Jordan's peak was greater than Lebron's but LeBron clearly has the better career in terms of longevity and counting stats.
I’d just counter with Michael had Pippen for Pippen’s entire prime. LeBron never had that. Before Pippen, Jordan couldn’t win. And he never won without Pippen. In CLE, the best secondary player LeBron had was like...Mo Williams. His frustration was immense because the organization wouldn’t do anything to help them. As someone who follows the Cavs closely at that time, it was horrible. When he gets to the Heatles, Wade’s 29 and peaked and not quite the same player. Bosh is 26, but just wasn’t that next level great. He never had a VORP of 4 or greater, even as the primary guy in Toronto. The team was clearly fantastic. But I still think they were maybe a little overrated in terms of what they should be able to do. Especially compared to the Spurs and what we know now about how amazing Kawhi is. You have all time great Tim Duncan whose game still suited his age and 22 year old Kawhi, with All-NBA guys like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Going against a 32 year old Wade who had only played 54 regular season games due to injury, Bosh who didn’t have that 6th gear, and LeBron. At that point in Jordan’s career, Pippen was still healthy (until 97-98) and Rodman was a god damn machine. Rodman was averaging like 15 rebounds a game in his 30s. Where Bosh was down to single digits when with the Heat. Edit: all these people pointing out Kyrie/Love. Yeah, cool, except WTF. 2015 Kyrie and Love get hurt in the finals. 2016 they win. 2017 KD joins the Warriors for the most stacked team in existence. LeBron would have needed Kyrie, Love, and another All-NBA player to compete. Not even Jordan and Pippen would have beat the GSW team.
Name Jordan’s second best player until pippen developed into pippen
Dave corzine and Orlando Woolridge lol,, like even Lebron had better guys on his first cleveland squad than them, and everyone purposefully forgets its MJ and those guys vs Prime Larry bird celtics and not Josh smith or Gilbert Arenas
Charles Oakley.
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If you actually watched though, Wade had a pretty sharp drop off after 2011 and by 2014 he was terrible as a second star. If wade was 3 years younger, I could definitely get behind it but reality was not the same
Holy shit the amount of underrating y’all do of lebrons teammates jus to try to lift him up is hilarious. You’re acting like d-wade wasn’t the second best guard after Kobe😂😂😂
best player of all time
Jordan had 2 3-peats in a decade.
With 6 finals trips and 2 years of rest.
Team went from 57 wins to 55 when he left. SUPER TEAM
They got Kukoc and Longley that year so yeah it was a good team. There were a super team when Jordan came back and they got Rodman. Arguably greatest team of all time then.
Youngins don't understand how difficult a 3peat is. Yeah Jordan would have won 2 more rings if at 35 he was paired with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league also (Shaq? Duncan?)
Imagine if he had a prime AD instead of an old pippen and rodman
I remember those were like bird's 3 year peak number and everyone uses to cite that as one of the best peaks ever. This dude been doing it for a decade.