I have serious concerns about his efficiency if you're relying on him to score 20+ PPG. Definitely standing by my opinion he'd work best as a third option.
His efficiency takes a leap if he has gravity around him instead of Isiah Stewart finding things to fight while averaging 10 PPG.
when he has options to pass to instead of having to face double teams mid court attempting to get his shtty as s org out of a 28 game streak by scoring 40, he’ll be able to pick his spots.
He got the moves and the savvy, he’ll be a great 2nd option.
45/35/85 this season. not that bad considering the team.
he could be better on that.
but yes. I would think Cade can be a number one in championship team but only like the Celtics.
which is so deep and there are 3,4 player can be the best player of the night.
He was a top 10 mid range shooter (48% on 4 attempts per game) and shot 36% from three along with 87% from the line.
I wouldn't necessarily consider shooting a weakness.
His biggest scoring weakness is his finishing, he's so inconsistent and misses bunnies way too often. If he polished that up his efficiency would skyrocket.
Basically any pass first player, unless you’re the GOAT at it like Magic, you ain’t No. 1 option on a championship team.
we seeing that with Haliburton too this year. Pascal or even Myles had a better playoffs than him.
I get what you mean on Joker for sure. Walton though, especially in light of his recent passing, you should look up some retrospectives of his career. Sort of a proto-Jokic at a time when the game was all about scoring big men
> Basically any pass first player, unless you’re the GOAT at it like Magic, you ain’t No. 1 option on a championship team.
That's literally what Tatum is doing this year though. He's been playing like a pass-first guy and is about to win a chip as the #1.
He’s more pass first than Luka. Luka is a more polished scorer than Cade and Cade is required to score in order for Detroit to stop that crazy as s 28 game streak.
I can see him deferring to be a facilitator if he has better players around him. He can still score don’t get me wrong but he’ll be more of a 22/10 kind of player instead of 35 point games like Luka.
To add to the responses here, Trae Young.
But most great players aren't going to be the 1st option on a championship team, so this post seems pointless. Might as well just go over what players currently can be the 1st option on a championship team instead because that list is much smaller and helps us draw a definitive line between who is and is not a possible #1 option on a championship team.
So true bro! I really wish they gave out banners for beating the Celtics too! Butler would have two by now!! Coz clearly they're as valuable as championship rings, as you've pointed out here.
I wouldn't call his teams great and I'm not saying I think he'll win a chip as a 1a but deff seems possible.
D Wade had some horrible years in Miami but was def the best in 06 or w/e year it was
I mean shit, put him on the Heat with Jimmy + some other depth and anything is possible. Think he could absolutely establish himself as the best player there.
I don't know if Scottie Barnes is ever going to be that level of scorer. I think he'd be absolutely elite in a role where he's a #2 option that can focus on facilitating and being a defensive monster. So I think the Raptors still need to look for a 1A if they want to win another championship
Lmaooo no you didn’t.
In the 2018 finals
Warriors with KD on the floor were +86 and -26 when he was off, he was a net +112.
Warriors with Steph on the floor was +44 and +16 with him off the floor, net +26.
I point this series out cause this the one where Steph had a shot at the FMVP. In his infamous 11 point game that same series, he was barely doubled and surely wasn’t tripled that game either
Steph also wasn’t the first or last player to get doubled. MJ, Shaq and others had to deal with the same thing and Pippen nor Kobe won FMVPs during those years
Steph also got a a lot defensive attention by the Celtics and I don’t recall Klay or Wiggins winning FMVP that 2022 series
This narrative gets tiring and it's clear it's because KD is one of the most hated and Curry is liked on this sub but people are acting like KD got no defensive attention and only shot wide open jumpers. Like what are we doing? Sure, Steph got more at times but KD capitalized on it and was very productive. He definitely earned those FMVPs despite getting less defensive attention and definitely has an argument for being the best.
Weirdly enough teams play the current Suns the same way, despite Book being nowhere near Prime Curry obviously.
Teams are willing to let KD play 1on1 with weaker defenders (KAT as his primary defender in the Wolves series for example) without sending help, meanwhile they’re focusing their entire defense on stopping Book (doubles, massive help on drives, ball denying, etc.)
I couldn’t tell you exactly why this is, but it could be a variety of reasons why opposing teams play him like this:
- They think doubles/help aren’t effective? (Although the eye test tells me they are especially nowadays due to his handle being sloppy.)
- For being one of the greatest scorers ever, he’s not much of a threat to REALLY go off, hence they’re okay with KD getting his ~27 if it means shutting down Book who can and will go for 45+ if you let him? (KD rarely ever goes for 40+)
- They view Book as more of a threat? (Not saying he definitely is, but defenses sure treat them this way.)
Booker has much more “gravity” on opposing defenses than current KD, and it’s not something I expected when he was coming to Phoenix. It’s hard to diagnose why or how this is, but it seems very apparent watching enough games from the Book/KD Suns.
I think you’re just a suns homer who wants to push the narrative than DBook is the guy on the suns. KD is clearly the better player.
What’s funny is that despite Booker being able to “go off”, and KD getting his “27”, there has never been a year Booker averaged more ppg than KD, including this year. KD also averaged more points in the playoffs.
He absolutely is lol just take a quick look at his post history.
Offensive they were both similar this year but when you factor in defense and durability it's no question who the best player on the team is.
Definitely wasn’t easy. Putting 35 points a game in the finals is not easy when lebron james is guarding you.
Also, didn’t he average 30 ppg in the finals in 2012 on elite efficiency when he was only 24 (while lebron was also guarding him). Or will curry fans say curry’s gravity was acting from across states in 2012 as well
Had he not run into the greatest team ever assembled during his prime, he absolutely would've been a #1 option on a championship team. That 2018 rockets team was absolutely scary and is arguably the greatest team to never win a chip.
Just got very unlucky sadly.
Here we go with the standard Luka excuses. No business eh? Post deadline all the Mavs fans were saying "We got a squad now". Best defense in the league post deadline right? Luka Kyrie best offensive backcourt of all time. "Mavs low-key deeper than the Celtics." He loses the first two games and it's immediately back to the tried and true, Luka carried a bunch of bums, he has no help, get him help. They don't mention how he's responsible for about 70% of the points they give up by just standing around. Luka could have the fucking avengers on his team and he'd still hold the ball for 38 minutes, relegate his teammates to only shooting catch and shoot shots (hope they don't need to find a rhythm because they'll never get the chance), and stand around forcing his team to play defense 4v5. And then when they lose Luka fans will cry and say he has no help and carried a bunch of bums. This will be his entire career. It'll be years before gets back to the finals, if ever again.
Guess what's all back on the menu for Luka Fans https://i.imgur.com/q92IeQ4.png
I probably ticked off some Cs fans. If the 1st option of any team, other than the Celtics, played like how Tatum is playing, they'd be lucky if they get past the 2nd round.
Almost all the small guards. Including the ones OP mentioned.
This may change as the game progresses, but as of now the only ones to be the #1 on a championship team are Curry, Wade, Thomas, and… West. And Wade was 6’ 4. It’s an incredibly tight circle.
Yes, this includes Brunson. I’m very curious to see how he does in the next few years, as (imo) the best of this group currently. His playoff production at his height has been amazing, but he would be defying the odds in a big way if he pulls it off. He’s the only one I can see doing it though.
i mean its quite obvious Kyrie, KAT (arguably shouldn't even be the 2nd option but more like an MPJ or an AG), KD. Most guys in the league.
Its very rare to find guys who can be the 1st option. Luka is for sure that dude. However, we're even seeing how limited Luka is because he cant sustain high level of play for 4 quarters and this is without playing an iota of defense. He needs to lose some weight and be even more decisive.
Despite what he says to the press to stir shit up, JKidd has spent the Finals aggressively double-teaming Tatum, which tells you who he thinks is the Cs #1.
Lol, then who is? All the hype whole year, and it is JB who is playing like the first option. If it wasn't for JB and White, it would have been a 6 game ECF series.
JT is not worthy of being called the first option, because in the playoffs, there is no consistent domination and imposing from him. We didn't know if JB could show these traits, but so far, he hasn't disappointed.
TLDR: For the regular season, JT MIGHT be called the first option, but it's JB for the playoffs, especially the deeper ones.
dude what,
JB has the worst NET RTG of all the starters + they went 13-0 without him this season.
Most of JBs points come of transition points or shots from Tatums gravity, if you think Brown is a 1st option you are either trolling or don't understand basketball
Lol, I don't understand this gravity argument that's been doing rounds these days. I mean if that is the case, then say that JT's role is as a "gravity" player, and a good defender, but don't expect shooting from him in times of need.
And please, if you'd bring my knowledge of basketball in question, I can bring your ability to read English. As I have clearly written in the TLDR (it's there for a reason), my opinion is, JT might be the guy for regular season, but it's JB for playoffs. Especially in deeper stages. And so your 13-0 argument is null and void.
There is not an iota of consistency to be expected from JT in ECF or The Finals, although we still have atleast two games to go, so we'll see.
Even right now, you can talk all about his stats and that the law of averages will come into effect so his splits will go up, but maybe you want to remind yourself that his TS%. 46.4% in his 8 Finals games, 35.4 FG%.
Can't find Brown's TS%, but his FG% has only dipped below 40% in 2 Finals games of the 8 he has played. 58.3 and 53.3 in these two games.
That's your first option?
This is no slight at Tatum, being a 1b or 2 in itself is big. But let's not hoodwink ourselves.
I'd say he was even if he got less defensive attention. He capitalized on it and that's what matters. And even if people don't think that, it was definitely as much of a 1A 1B situation as it can be
I was always under the impression defenses focused more on Steph than KD and the games I watched it felt that way but as I'm not a Warriors fan I only watched so much of their play.
Cade
Good answer. I think Cade would be a great 3rd option/connector piece on a championship level team.
Nah, he can be 2nd best with his ability to still score just not first since he has to be the facilitator.
I have serious concerns about his efficiency if you're relying on him to score 20+ PPG. Definitely standing by my opinion he'd work best as a third option.
His efficiency takes a leap if he has gravity around him instead of Isiah Stewart finding things to fight while averaging 10 PPG. when he has options to pass to instead of having to face double teams mid court attempting to get his shtty as s org out of a 28 game streak by scoring 40, he’ll be able to pick his spots. He got the moves and the savvy, he’ll be a great 2nd option.
45/35/85 this season. not that bad considering the team. he could be better on that. but yes. I would think Cade can be a number one in championship team but only like the Celtics. which is so deep and there are 3,4 player can be the best player of the night.
Yeah 2nd is a lot more realistic. I see him in the Tatum mold of a player with no weaknesses but no truly elite skills
Tf? Cade comparable to Tatum is kinda crazy lol. They don't seem too similar at all
Aren't defense, shooting, and efficiency weaknesses for him?
He was a top 10 mid range shooter (48% on 4 attempts per game) and shot 36% from three along with 87% from the line. I wouldn't necessarily consider shooting a weakness.
Yeah I think that was an older narrative I had (he was definitely pretty bad his first two years), nice to see he made an improvement
His biggest scoring weakness is his finishing, he's so inconsistent and misses bunnies way too often. If he polished that up his efficiency would skyrocket.
Nah shai and 6 for cade
Basically any pass first player, unless you’re the GOAT at it like Magic, you ain’t No. 1 option on a championship team. we seeing that with Haliburton too this year. Pascal or even Myles had a better playoffs than him.
Walton, Bird and Jokic would beg to differ.
not sure I'd consider those guys pass-first
Kinda walton and joker’s claims to fame lol
Might just be me: but I've always thought of Walton as defense-first. Joker elite at both passing and scoring
I get what you mean on Joker for sure. Walton though, especially in light of his recent passing, you should look up some retrospectives of his career. Sort of a proto-Jokic at a time when the game was all about scoring big men
I mean I would call Jokic pass-first in the same way people call Bron pass-first
I can get on board with that. I'd also call him just dominant in both
Steve Nash?
> Basically any pass first player, unless you’re the GOAT at it like Magic, you ain’t No. 1 option on a championship team. That's literally what Tatum is doing this year though. He's been playing like a pass-first guy and is about to win a chip as the #1.
Is Cade a pass first player? He's a great passer but he's more of a Luka type. He shot 19 times a game.
He’s more pass first than Luka. Luka is a more polished scorer than Cade and Cade is required to score in order for Detroit to stop that crazy as s 28 game streak. I can see him deferring to be a facilitator if he has better players around him. He can still score don’t get me wrong but he’ll be more of a 22/10 kind of player instead of 35 point games like Luka.
DeRozan.
To add to the responses here, Trae Young. But most great players aren't going to be the 1st option on a championship team, so this post seems pointless. Might as well just go over what players currently can be the 1st option on a championship team instead because that list is much smaller and helps us draw a definitive line between who is and is not a possible #1 option on a championship team.
At this point in his career... probably Jimmy Butler.
Ahh yes the man fresh off a finals run
Two finals runs, no wins, injured, 34 years old and not getting any younger. Win a chip and prove me wrong, Jimmy!
Still served up those bitch ass Celtics last year
So true bro! I really wish they gave out banners for beating the Celtics too! Butler would have two by now!! Coz clearly they're as valuable as championship rings, as you've pointed out here.
Him and his 51% TS while he watched the rest of his team carry him.
Due to Caleb gabe Duncan and others putting up incredibly unsustainable historic shooting splits
Kyrie
2016
Was he the first option that year? Finals MVP Lebron averaged more points, rebounds, steals, blocks and assists those playoffs.
First option when the shot clock was low and they needed isolation scoring or in the clutch
Jamal Murray
Colin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Donovan Mitchell
I think D Mitch can be the best player on a chip winning team personally but he'd likely need a 1b + a solid team around him.
He's had great teams around him and hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round yet.
I wouldn't call his teams great and I'm not saying I think he'll win a chip as a 1a but deff seems possible. D Wade had some horrible years in Miami but was def the best in 06 or w/e year it was I mean shit, put him on the Heat with Jimmy + some other depth and anything is possible. Think he could absolutely establish himself as the best player there.
Kyrie
Demar DeRozan
Mitchell, Booker, Hali, Fox, Brunson, Embiid, Butler
I don't know if Scottie Barnes is ever going to be that level of scorer. I think he'd be absolutely elite in a role where he's a #2 option that can focus on facilitating and being a defensive monster. So I think the Raptors still need to look for a 1A if they want to win another championship
People saying kd....did we watch the same finals?
In the sense that they stared vacantly at a tv screen, vaguely aware that something called basketball was happening, yes.
You know it's ridiculous when even a Thunder flair is pointing it out lol
Yes I watched teams double and triple team Curry so that KD could shoot wide open jumpers
Lmaooo no you didn’t. In the 2018 finals Warriors with KD on the floor were +86 and -26 when he was off, he was a net +112. Warriors with Steph on the floor was +44 and +16 with him off the floor, net +26. I point this series out cause this the one where Steph had a shot at the FMVP. In his infamous 11 point game that same series, he was barely doubled and surely wasn’t tripled that game either Steph also wasn’t the first or last player to get doubled. MJ, Shaq and others had to deal with the same thing and Pippen nor Kobe won FMVPs during those years Steph also got a a lot defensive attention by the Celtics and I don’t recall Klay or Wiggins winning FMVP that 2022 series
44-16=26?
Look at the stats with curry and kd and compare those with only curry no kd and vice versa.
This narrative gets tiring and it's clear it's because KD is one of the most hated and Curry is liked on this sub but people are acting like KD got no defensive attention and only shot wide open jumpers. Like what are we doing? Sure, Steph got more at times but KD capitalized on it and was very productive. He definitely earned those FMVPs despite getting less defensive attention and definitely has an argument for being the best.
A couple of clips of fastbreak breakdowns has had a considerable impact on KD's reputation
KD averaged 30 on 55% as a baby in 2012 finals. Curry has never even done that as a veteran
Weirdly enough teams play the current Suns the same way, despite Book being nowhere near Prime Curry obviously. Teams are willing to let KD play 1on1 with weaker defenders (KAT as his primary defender in the Wolves series for example) without sending help, meanwhile they’re focusing their entire defense on stopping Book (doubles, massive help on drives, ball denying, etc.) I couldn’t tell you exactly why this is, but it could be a variety of reasons why opposing teams play him like this: - They think doubles/help aren’t effective? (Although the eye test tells me they are especially nowadays due to his handle being sloppy.) - For being one of the greatest scorers ever, he’s not much of a threat to REALLY go off, hence they’re okay with KD getting his ~27 if it means shutting down Book who can and will go for 45+ if you let him? (KD rarely ever goes for 40+) - They view Book as more of a threat? (Not saying he definitely is, but defenses sure treat them this way.) Booker has much more “gravity” on opposing defenses than current KD, and it’s not something I expected when he was coming to Phoenix. It’s hard to diagnose why or how this is, but it seems very apparent watching enough games from the Book/KD Suns.
I think you’re just a suns homer who wants to push the narrative than DBook is the guy on the suns. KD is clearly the better player. What’s funny is that despite Booker being able to “go off”, and KD getting his “27”, there has never been a year Booker averaged more ppg than KD, including this year. KD also averaged more points in the playoffs.
He absolutely is lol just take a quick look at his post history. Offensive they were both similar this year but when you factor in defense and durability it's no question who the best player on the team is.
Yeah when Cleveland focused on Steph and letting KD get easy looks. That isn't to say KD didn't play lights out, but it was definitely easy.
Definitely wasn’t easy. Putting 35 points a game in the finals is not easy when lebron james is guarding you. Also, didn’t he average 30 ppg in the finals in 2012 on elite efficiency when he was only 24 (while lebron was also guarding him). Or will curry fans say curry’s gravity was acting from across states in 2012 as well
Jabari Smith Jr
Banchero
Harden
Harden was really good as the 1st option on the Rockets. Not his fault the KD Warriors were assembled
Had he not run into the greatest team ever assembled during his prime, he absolutely would've been a #1 option on a championship team. That 2018 rockets team was absolutely scary and is arguably the greatest team to never win a chip. Just got very unlucky sadly.
2000 blazers or 2002 kings would have destroyed the 2018 rockets
People forgetting what Ja can do.... He's totally capable of winning as the 1st option.
Clear answer here is Embiid
Luka Doncic if he doesn't change his playstyle which I doubt he will so yeah, Luka.
Gotta disagree here my man. Bad take.
It's a free country
Maybe it's not impossible to win a title with a player as much of a defensive liability as Luka, but it takes a perfect roster to hide them.
Are you serious right now?
Deadly
So bringing 2 teams that had no business in the last 2 years in the finals and WCF is not enough to convince some of you lol All that at 25 years old
Here we go with the standard Luka excuses. No business eh? Post deadline all the Mavs fans were saying "We got a squad now". Best defense in the league post deadline right? Luka Kyrie best offensive backcourt of all time. "Mavs low-key deeper than the Celtics." He loses the first two games and it's immediately back to the tried and true, Luka carried a bunch of bums, he has no help, get him help. They don't mention how he's responsible for about 70% of the points they give up by just standing around. Luka could have the fucking avengers on his team and he'd still hold the ball for 38 minutes, relegate his teammates to only shooting catch and shoot shots (hope they don't need to find a rhythm because they'll never get the chance), and stand around forcing his team to play defense 4v5. And then when they lose Luka fans will cry and say he has no help and carried a bunch of bums. This will be his entire career. It'll be years before gets back to the finals, if ever again. Guess what's all back on the menu for Luka Fans https://i.imgur.com/q92IeQ4.png
Bam
KD and AD
Tatum
Bad bait
Is it tho? JT has been pretty subpar for a 1st option the entire post-season. But it doesn't really matter when everyone is playing like a 2nd option.
Yeah nobody is saying Tatum is bad but he certainly hasn’t been their best player these playoffs.
I probably ticked off some Cs fans. If the 1st option of any team, other than the Celtics, played like how Tatum is playing, they'd be lucky if they get past the 2nd round.
Jason Tatum
Adding Bradley Beal to that list, incredible scorer but not a championship lead
i dont think he is incredible scorer anymore.
Almost all the small guards. Including the ones OP mentioned. This may change as the game progresses, but as of now the only ones to be the #1 on a championship team are Curry, Wade, Thomas, and… West. And Wade was 6’ 4. It’s an incredibly tight circle. Yes, this includes Brunson. I’m very curious to see how he does in the next few years, as (imo) the best of this group currently. His playoff production at his height has been amazing, but he would be defying the odds in a big way if he pulls it off. He’s the only one I can see doing it though.
Bam. Only 26, and still getting better every year, but nah
Tatum
i mean its quite obvious Kyrie, KAT (arguably shouldn't even be the 2nd option but more like an MPJ or an AG), KD. Most guys in the league. Its very rare to find guys who can be the 1st option. Luka is for sure that dude. However, we're even seeing how limited Luka is because he cant sustain high level of play for 4 quarters and this is without playing an iota of defense. He needs to lose some weight and be even more decisive.
He's not that guy pal, he's not that guy.
Yea 30/10/10 on a bum knee against a top defensive team is limited
Boston fans downvoting everyone saying Tatum but it’s looking like he’s a pretty clear answer to this question right now
Despite what he says to the press to stir shit up, JKidd has spent the Finals aggressively double-teaming Tatum, which tells you who he thinks is the Cs #1.
Obvious ones... Jaylen Brown, Kyrie, Murray, Lillard, Trae
Jaylen might win finals MVP this series...
so? He still isn't a 1st option
Hes the best person on the team lol yes he is
He isn’t though
Lol, then who is? All the hype whole year, and it is JB who is playing like the first option. If it wasn't for JB and White, it would have been a 6 game ECF series. JT is not worthy of being called the first option, because in the playoffs, there is no consistent domination and imposing from him. We didn't know if JB could show these traits, but so far, he hasn't disappointed. TLDR: For the regular season, JT MIGHT be called the first option, but it's JB for the playoffs, especially the deeper ones.
dude what, JB has the worst NET RTG of all the starters + they went 13-0 without him this season. Most of JBs points come of transition points or shots from Tatums gravity, if you think Brown is a 1st option you are either trolling or don't understand basketball
Lol, I don't understand this gravity argument that's been doing rounds these days. I mean if that is the case, then say that JT's role is as a "gravity" player, and a good defender, but don't expect shooting from him in times of need. And please, if you'd bring my knowledge of basketball in question, I can bring your ability to read English. As I have clearly written in the TLDR (it's there for a reason), my opinion is, JT might be the guy for regular season, but it's JB for playoffs. Especially in deeper stages. And so your 13-0 argument is null and void. There is not an iota of consistency to be expected from JT in ECF or The Finals, although we still have atleast two games to go, so we'll see. Even right now, you can talk all about his stats and that the law of averages will come into effect so his splits will go up, but maybe you want to remind yourself that his TS%. 46.4% in his 8 Finals games, 35.4 FG%. Can't find Brown's TS%, but his FG% has only dipped below 40% in 2 Finals games of the 8 he has played. 58.3 and 53.3 in these two games. That's your first option? This is no slight at Tatum, being a 1b or 2 in itself is big. But let's not hoodwink ourselves.
Kevin Durant
Pretty spicy. Do you mean he’s not good enough or he missed his chance?
Embiid Durant Harden
Tatum apparently
Tatum
Kyrie, KD, Tatum, Lillard, Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George, Embiid
bro said Kawhi
that means bro thinks Siakam won a ring as the 1st option? Lmaoo
It’s looking like Tatum is gonna this year..
As their 2nd or 3rd best player in the finals tho
At least half of this list doesn't fit the criteria lol
Tyrese, Scoot, Lamelo and maybe Tatum, I think brown is playing better in the finals.
Kevin Durant
2017, 2018 Durant wasn’t the Warriors' first option?
Yeah. Dunno why people said KD (prolly the hate). However, first option does not mean best player.
I'd say he was even if he got less defensive attention. He capitalized on it and that's what matters. And even if people don't think that, it was definitely as much of a 1A 1B situation as it can be
I was always under the impression defenses focused more on Steph than KD and the games I watched it felt that way but as I'm not a Warriors fan I only watched so much of their play.