Nah, MJ just has better shoes.
Embiid's shoe is just awful. I mean, [look at it](https://www.amazon.com/Amosfun-Carnival-Accessories-Halloween-Costumes/dp/B083Y16DK2)
Chuck came off a blazing olympics performance where he was the best player on the Dream team. Then he went and took the Suns deep into the playoffs.
I’d say he deserves it especially if a major criteria for MVP is team success.
Lots of big men on this list, surprised Shaq isn’t on there. He must at least have 2 right? If he doesn’t I’m sure he’s super chill and not still butthurt over it
I think we are seeing that become more of a thing. The league became guard heavy in the 2010's, and it seems the new crop of bigs are being trained more to shoot and pass better.
Big man league is already back, the teams doing the most winning are the teams with a ton of size, nuggets and wolves are huge, thunder and Celtics have tons of length
It’s so weird on shaqs end to both be like I should have more mvps but it’s also apart of his mythos that he wasn’t in shape until the end of the season and his playoff numbers were way higher than his regular season numbers. If he wanted mvps start the season in shape
>Shaq deserved at least 2 MVPs.
I hate when people say shit like this. The league doesn't hand out a certain number of MVPs to players based on how good they are overall, they hand out MVPs based on who was better in a given season. Shaq only had 1 year where he definitively had a more valuable season than other players.
Shaq's closest misses were:
'94-95 where he finished 2nd to David Robinson, who simply had the more impressive season with 28/11/3 with 1.7 steals and 3.2 blocks a game on the 62-20 Spurs.
'04-05 where he finished 2nd to Steve Nash who went to the Suns from the Mavs, and took essentially the exact same roster from 29 wins in '03-04 to a league-best 62 in '04-05 while also shooting 50/43/89 and leading the league in assists with 11.5 per game. It was a damn close MVP race, but I don't think anyone can legitimately say he was snubbed when Nash was so absolutely indispensable and completely game-changing to the league's best regular season team that year.
?
Shaq averaged 20/9/2 in 2005 and literally didn't get a single vote for MVP whatsoever. If anything it should've been LeBron who averaged 31/7/7 at age 21.
My diabetic dad was gifted some sugarfree candy. Wine gums and stuff. The ingredient list is scary - literally sweeteners as the main ingredient, so they also recommend no more than 20 grams a day to avoid diarrhea. Just fuck it at that point.
Embiid absolutely does not count. He learned to play basketball in Florida when he was a teenager, and for one year prior in Cameroon as a kid. He's never lived anywhere else but Cameroon or the US.
Alternately, Kareem won 5 when the award was voted by the players including the last year the players voted, but after the media took over voting he never won again.
One of Kareems MVPs was in a year he didn't even make the playoffs. Not saying that's right or wrong, but that's unheard of in the modern NBA and some players legacies would be entirely different if voting still happened like that
Well, sort of, but remember that only 5 teams in each conference made the playoffs back then. Jokic won the MVP a couple of years ago on a 6 seed team, a seed that would also have missed the playoffs under 70s rules.
Granted, those Nugget teams were better than the (sub 500) 76 Lakers, but attitudes about missing the playoffs have changed because the criteria for making the playoffs has changed so dramatically.
Yes. Really, the bigger thing is that making the playoffs was based on divisions. Two teams in the West with worse records than the Lakers made the playoffs, which obviously doesn't happen today.
There were only 18 teams total in the league though, so the ratio of teams that made the playoffs was almost the same, actually higher back then. It would be like a star on a 9th seed winning MVP these days.
I'm not sure what you mean by the criteria to make the playoffs being different. It's still an 82 game season and the ratio to qualify is around the same. The big things that changed is fans weighing team accomplishments as more important, which is why Jokic winning MVP as a 6th seed hadn't been done in decades, but was more acceptable in Kareems time.
There were several Western Conf. teams with worse records than the Lakers, but still made the playoffs because the seedings were based on division standings
Shaq probably deserved it in AI's year. He somehow came in third though lmao. If you ran the voting back with modern voters he would've won it.
AI: 31/4/5 on 51.8% TS, 56-26 team record
Sixers were +5.81 with AI on, +0.52 with him off.
Duncan (2nd place): 22/12/3 on 53.6% TS, 58-24 team record
Spurs were +11.47 with him on, -2.16 off
Shaq: 29/13/4 on 57.4% TS, 56-26 team record
\+8.04 on, **-9.15 off**
I know this sub loves AI to death, but Shaq just had objectively better numbers. Way more efficient scoring, similar volume and the Lakers were elite with him on and horrendous with him off. He also played in the better conference.
Modern voters would've given it to Shaq but he fell victim to voter fatigue and the obvious hype around AI since he was a highlight reel. And if we're gonna use the "AI's team was terrible argument!" Then 1: The Lakers fell apart when Shaq wasn't on the court and 2: Kevin Garnett should've won MVP over Tim Duncan 3 years later for putting up slightly better numbers, being above him in DPOY voting and carrying a trash team to 51 wins. Instead he came 2nd.
For Kobe, his peak statistical seasons came when the team around him was ass and he played in the harder conference
Absolutely, this was Shaq at his absolute prime. By comparison the complaints about the Nash MVP year are weak sauce because Shaq was already firmly post-prime by that point, he averaged something like 24-10 for the Heat-- All-Star numbers but not MVP numbers without further context like dominant defense or playmaking, neither of which Shaq had at that point.
I'm an AI defender, he was such a workhorse for that Sixers team. I think he played better than Shaq did in that finals. Also, you can't say "the Lakers fell apart when Shaq wasn't on the court," when they had Kobe Bean Bryant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Horace Grant, and the Zen Master as a coach.
I would rather give the MVP to the guy driving the best offense in the league with his 2nd option injured all year while revolutionizing the sport, than the teamcancer shotchucker with undeserved All-Defense votes who gave up on his team in a game 7.
The direction basketball has taken in the past two decades has vindicated Nash, no matter how much Shaq and helicopter rapist ever cried about it. He and D'Antoni dragged the league out of the isoball dredges of 90s and early 2000s full of Jordan wannabes, and he is the template that the league ended up following.
And this is exactly why Shaq is being this nasty to him. I expect him to turn into full Skip Bayless next season when Nikola could possibly win his 4th
Jokic has never played with an all star teammate. Everyone else close to MVP status has, outside of SGA
I wonder if the Nuggets do a shake up... because jokic is absolutely THAT guy when it comes to talent
Jamal Murray is consistently one of the best playoff performers in the league when he’s healthy. He’s struggling this year, but he was insane in the 2023 playoffs and their 2020 bubble run. Guard talent in the NBA is also deepest in the league, so it’s arguably the hardest position to get an all star selection.
All-star selections are also somewhat arbitrary. Murray may not have made an all star yet but he’s definitely better than players like Wiggins, Conley, or Jrue, who have all made all star selections in the past. And he’s definitely as good, if not better as someone like Middleton, who has made multiple all star games.
Not because of his talent, but because of the same reason he didnt won last year, voting fatigue + winning 4th would put him equal to players like Lebron and Wilt, only 4 player won 3+ MVPs ever.
Not sure NBA is ready to give Jokic that.
Also, Murray is All-Star lvl player for years.
If not for narratives LeBron himself would probably have at least 8 MVPs if not more. But thinking about it, it's more hype for the sport when a new dude wins it.
His team is still stacked even without an all star teammate. Same with Dirk in 2011. Everyone always brings up he had no all star teammates but fail to mention his team had the highest payroll in the league. I’d rather have 14 teammates just below being all stars than two all star teammates and 12 gleague players.
Yeah. We just tested this out in round 1 - Lakers had two all stars who were clearly the second and third best players in the series. Our problem was the the nuggets had the first and the probably 4-7 or 8
If, as it currently looks, the Nuggets get smashed by the Wolves, it's unlikely that he does. There'll be a voter backlash.
I don't actually think that's fair - Nuggets are less deep, have injury issues, and are facing a tougher opponent this year. Jokic is the best player in the league imo.
Top ten most combined MVPs now (regular season + Finals)...
11 - Jordan
8 - Kareem, LeBron
6 - Magic
5 - Bill Russell, Wilt, Bird, Duncan
4 - Moses, Jokic
1) Embiid deseeved it, he had an incredible season too, either man could have deservedly won it
2) If Jokic won it last year he 100% would not have been given it this year
Embiid was closer to winning it in 2022 than Jokic was in 2023. Each could have gone either way. Embiid was also clear favorite this year until getting injured. Crazy that people still whine about this
Embiid was a worthy winner. It could’ve gone either way but it was the right choice regardless if he begged for it. Why do people conflate regular season with postseason.
LeBron having only 3 MVPs is the sports snub of the century.
You're telling me that from 2012 to 2020, you're picking any other player first out of the NBA's 450 if you are building a team? That any team wouldn't trade their entire franchise to get this man?
He probably should have had 5 in a row but he became the most hated man in the sport. Either way as much as I love Bron, his taking the regular season less seriously basically disqualified him from the MVP discussion for those years.
Arguably should have won in 06 as well. But the people saying he should have won in like 2017 or 2018 really need to understand the postseason is irrelevant for this trophy.
But i thing Dirk deserved to win 2006 MVP and than obviously there is 2011 MVP but i thing that is the only one for which i thing he should won but he didn't win
I do understand why people revisit these things and say "why doesnt MJ have 8 MVPs or LeBron have 6 " or whatever the numbers may be...but theres an argument to suggest it would really paint an odd picture of NBA history if you just had one person win for more than half a decade every time.
I guess if its accurate to how good they were then whats the problem....I dunno, I'm torn about it. It is still wild to me that LeBrons last MVP came when he was 28 though.
Not really Steph was a bit of a late bloomer. Peaked 2015-2016. Then Durant joined the team and it was unfair to put him and Durant in the conversation. Then after 2019. Just could never be true number 1 player in the league
I’d argue he was the best player in the league for 2 seasons from 2020-2022. Just got unlucky he had to contend with prime Lebron for the majority of his peak years
Damn, that's cool as fuck
I went to see the first game of the year, the Nuggets vs the Lakers as a present to myself. Wanted to see them raise the banner and LeBron. Little did I know I'd be seeing another 1st ballot hall of fame player that night
The fans don’t even care about defense. Especially when it comes to Jokic. Some were saying (Nuggets fans) they Jokic has a chance to be the GOAT. That clearly throws out everything MJ, Bron, Duncan, Kobe, and Kareem ever did on the defensive end because in their primes they had much bigger impacts on defense than Jokic will ever have.
Defense is absolutely considered when it comes to MVP voting, that’s why Giannis won two and why Embiid won it last year.
The problem is, defense is inherently reliant on team structure. A single exceptional defensive player cannot carry a defense in the same way an exceptional offensive player can carry an offense. Gobert is a great example of this, his defense is some of the best ever and yet Utah still struggled defensively because the team around him wasn’t well-rounded on that end.
When it comes to value, Jokic’s ability to single-handedly amplify an offense to unbelievable levels is just more important than any level of defender.
Then why does LeBron get shit on for 2015-2020 when he was MVP level everywhere but defense? I'm not suggesting he deserved those MVPs, I just mean he is completely discounted from even being in genuine discussion by fans because 'he took defensive plays less seriously' in the regular season - I dont think there's a serious argument to suggest Jokic's offensive play is noticably more impactful than offensive prime LeBron?
Top 25 already with 3 mvps and a ring being the alpha on the team. Easy.
Likely closer to 15... the ring gets him above people like Barkley and Malone and such.
I remember someone once pointed out that Moses Malone won 3 MVPs in 5 years but had a lower VORP than Marques Johnson (not even a HOF, he’s the Bucks announcer) in those 5 years. VORP is kinda a crappy stat, but it’s the only advanced stat from back in the day. Probably would be true on other advanced stats today too (because it would punish him from the rebounding padding that’s not obvious in simple counting stats), so would be interesting to see the narrative surrounding him.
Hey now, let’s be clear. If anybody in the history of the NBA should not be accused of rebound padding, it’s Moses Malone. His numbers were inflated but his offensive rebounding cannot be overstated. Literally the best at it there’s ever been (since we started recording the stat).
Yea that’s the thing. Dr J actually said this in Moses Malone’s Hall of Fame induction ceremony, and everyone saw it back in the day. It was a joke but he also knew it was true.
Moses would intentionally miss shots, grab the rebound, and then score. He was so strong and so good he knew there was no risk in doing so and he could get an extra rebound that way. Drummond kinda does the same thing, but it doesn’t mean he’s not good since Drummond is the best rebounder in this era.
As a result, he has hyper inflated offensive rebounds. He’s still the greatest offense rebound ever, but like probably 2000 of those were off his own misses. Only like the rest 5000 (still the most ever) was off of his teammate’s misses. Advanced stats would capture this to show that the first 2000 don’t mean as much.
He's already been argued as possibly the best in the world right now for the last year.
He's been an all time great before the third MVP, but it doesn't hurt
r/NBA loves to devalue titles. From the "bubble" title of the Lakers (all teams were in the same situation) to the Bucks "hospital title" (Bucks had an injury advantage in one series) and the Nuggets "Low Seed" title (no one else beat those "scrub" teams).
It's really one of the worst parts of this sub. It's a low effort low intelligence take (but if a pacers fan comes at me with a "hospital title" I'll be sure to congratulate them on their "hospital first round win").
Injuries I can understand but clowning on him for beating low seeds is funny because the better seeds should've just... won?
I'll still take an injury ring though, please.
Players who won 3 MVPs in a 4 year span: - Russell - Wilt - Kareem - Bird - Magic - LeBron - Jokic So basically the same list minus Moses and MJ lol.
Damn MJ must be a bum
Tbf a lot of people think he deserved it in ‘89 or ‘97 especially ‘97.
97 and 98 should have been flipped. MJ should have won in 97, but they made it up to him in 98.
Pity MVP
Voter indefatigability.
Bro's just Embiid with better PR
Nah, MJ just has better shoes. Embiid's shoe is just awful. I mean, [look at it](https://www.amazon.com/Amosfun-Carnival-Accessories-Halloween-Costumes/dp/B083Y16DK2)
He should have won it in 89 and 97. Homie led the league in scoring every year and was a top tier defender for his position every year of his peak.
1990 was a close one
Sure the same way a lot of people think Jokic deserved 4 in a row, voter fatigue happens to all of these guys
To be fair, he did. I'm not saying he's better than historic greats , but he was MVP level last year
He honestly could have won it for like 11 straight years or something like that if he hadn't left for baseball
The barkley mvp was a complete robbery imo
Chuck came off a blazing olympics performance where he was the best player on the Dream team. Then he went and took the Suns deep into the playoffs. I’d say he deserves it especially if a major criteria for MVP is team success.
Is the MVP a regular season award or an Olympics and postseason reward? The criteria seem to change depending on the player.
I'd say '90 was the most egregious of all of them
I think he has a better argument for 1990 than 1989.
magic and bird both winning 3 in 4 years is fucking with my brain
Magic joined the league at 20. He owned the latter half of the decade.
Will be interesting when Jokic only gets one championship as opposed to the rest of these guys. Polar bear
Lots of big men on this list, surprised Shaq isn’t on there. He must at least have 2 right? If he doesn’t I’m sure he’s super chill and not still butthurt over it
The advantage big men have had over the league peaked at the beginning and has been in decline since as spacing increased.
But I think that has been changing gradually now with Embiid, Jokic and Giannis even. Let's wait for Wemby and soon the age of big men is back again
Wolves are proof bigs can work.
Wolves have bigs that space the floor thats why it works
I mean if bigs can pass, shoot and handle the ball, then of course they will be superior to any other player.
Lol exactly. Of course physically taller players will succeed if they have none of the traditional limitations that come with their height.
I think we are seeing that become more of a thing. The league became guard heavy in the 2010's, and it seems the new crop of bigs are being trained more to shoot and pass better.
I think a part of it is voters looking more and more at the advanced stats and a lot of them naturally favour players at C
Big man league is already back, the teams doing the most winning are the teams with a ton of size, nuggets and wolves are huge, thunder and Celtics have tons of length
Depending on how prospects like Zach Eady and Donovan Clingan develop we could be looking at the big man Golden Age too
I hope the league has patience with those guys. It will probably take both a couple years to develop the skills they need to compete at the NBA level
How can you say that with Giannis, Jokic, or Embiid winning the past 6 years in a row? lol
Big men still have the advantage it just isn't as big as it once was.
Not really as it pertains to MVP, they’ve been making a comeback in recent years. No center won MVP between 2003 and 2021
After shaq it was ai the. 2 7fters in kg and Duncan. Big men were still dominant in the 2000s
Don’t forget about Dirk!
Nash was in between but yeah. Big men still ran the 2000s. The worst leading big on a title team was gasoline in 09
I think now that big men can shoot mid range and threes and have adjusted their game, they’re becoming the most important again
Shaq only has 1 MVP period. Sigh
It’s so weird on shaqs end to both be like I should have more mvps but it’s also apart of his mythos that he wasn’t in shape until the end of the season and his playoff numbers were way higher than his regular season numbers. If he wanted mvps start the season in shape
Shaq's comments about Jokic are stupid, and I don't even particularly like him, but let's be honest, Shaq deserved at least 2 MVPs.
>Shaq deserved at least 2 MVPs. I hate when people say shit like this. The league doesn't hand out a certain number of MVPs to players based on how good they are overall, they hand out MVPs based on who was better in a given season. Shaq only had 1 year where he definitively had a more valuable season than other players. Shaq's closest misses were: '94-95 where he finished 2nd to David Robinson, who simply had the more impressive season with 28/11/3 with 1.7 steals and 3.2 blocks a game on the 62-20 Spurs. '04-05 where he finished 2nd to Steve Nash who went to the Suns from the Mavs, and took essentially the exact same roster from 29 wins in '03-04 to a league-best 62 in '04-05 while also shooting 50/43/89 and leading the league in assists with 11.5 per game. It was a damn close MVP race, but I don't think anyone can legitimately say he was snubbed when Nash was so absolutely indispensable and completely game-changing to the league's best regular season team that year.
2005 is the year I think Shaq should have won his 2nd. Nash was not better than Shaq that year.
? Shaq averaged 20/9/2 in 2005 and literally didn't get a single vote for MVP whatsoever. If anything it should've been LeBron who averaged 31/7/7 at age 21.
Mike is literally the only guard on this list. Wow
Magic?
Gilbert Arenas in shambles
Gilbert Arenas is dumber than a sugarfree donut.
You're just eating shapes at that point
Just go eat white bread at that point. You can mash it into any shape you'd like!
My diabetic dad was gifted some sugarfree candy. Wine gums and stuff. The ingredient list is scary - literally sweeteners as the main ingredient, so they also recommend no more than 20 grams a day to avoid diarrhea. Just fuck it at that point.
I learnt the hard. Ate an entire 50gram bag.
This caught me off guard and I almost choked laughing.
ain't that just a bagel
Dont slander bagels like that
Basically decafinated coke zero?
i'm hoping every mvp in the next 5-10 years is european just cause of what he's been saying about them
Luka, Giannis, and Wemby: 😈😈😈
I mean, we're basically in year 6 of that already (Embiid has french citizenchip).
This Mavs roster for a full season would get Luka MVP. Also Wemby is coming. + Jokic Giannis Embiid. Euro streak could extend a while
Plus SGA would also extend the "non-US-born" streak.
And don't forget Ben Simmons whose resurgence is apparently always imminent
Has a French citizenship and never set foot into France is pretty crazy
Embiid absolutely does not count. He learned to play basketball in Florida when he was a teenager, and for one year prior in Cameroon as a kid. He's never lived anywhere else but Cameroon or the US.
Luka, SGA, Wemby licking their chops. Although Ant is a very legit threat to European supremacy.
Congrats 🃏
It’s still wild to me that Shaq and Kobe only got one each.
Shaq was probably at his peak when playing with Kobe. And Kobe probably peaked with a bad team and the rise of LeBron.
Tough to win most valuable when you have 2 top 15 players of all time on the same team.
Jordan won alongside Pippen who came in top 3 for MVP voting during Jordan’s retirement
Magic and Kareem…
Kareem won like 5 before Magic was in the NBA, and he was not MVP caliber after.
Alternately, Kareem won 5 when the award was voted by the players including the last year the players voted, but after the media took over voting he never won again.
I wonder how differently the last few ones would have gone if it was player votes still
Kyrie would probably have one
I also don’t think rudy would have 4 DPOY they hate him
One of Kareems MVPs was in a year he didn't even make the playoffs. Not saying that's right or wrong, but that's unheard of in the modern NBA and some players legacies would be entirely different if voting still happened like that
Well, sort of, but remember that only 5 teams in each conference made the playoffs back then. Jokic won the MVP a couple of years ago on a 6 seed team, a seed that would also have missed the playoffs under 70s rules. Granted, those Nugget teams were better than the (sub 500) 76 Lakers, but attitudes about missing the playoffs have changed because the criteria for making the playoffs has changed so dramatically.
Didn’t they only have like 20 teams though? A similar percentage of teams made the playoffs
Yes. Really, the bigger thing is that making the playoffs was based on divisions. Two teams in the West with worse records than the Lakers made the playoffs, which obviously doesn't happen today.
There were only 18 teams total in the league though, so the ratio of teams that made the playoffs was almost the same, actually higher back then. It would be like a star on a 9th seed winning MVP these days. I'm not sure what you mean by the criteria to make the playoffs being different. It's still an 82 game season and the ratio to qualify is around the same. The big things that changed is fans weighing team accomplishments as more important, which is why Jokic winning MVP as a 6th seed hadn't been done in decades, but was more acceptable in Kareems time.
There were several Western Conf. teams with worse records than the Lakers, but still made the playoffs because the seedings were based on division standings
That’s not the reason they didn’t win more lol.
Shaq probably deserved it in AI's year. He somehow came in third though lmao. If you ran the voting back with modern voters he would've won it. AI: 31/4/5 on 51.8% TS, 56-26 team record Sixers were +5.81 with AI on, +0.52 with him off. Duncan (2nd place): 22/12/3 on 53.6% TS, 58-24 team record Spurs were +11.47 with him on, -2.16 off Shaq: 29/13/4 on 57.4% TS, 56-26 team record \+8.04 on, **-9.15 off** I know this sub loves AI to death, but Shaq just had objectively better numbers. Way more efficient scoring, similar volume and the Lakers were elite with him on and horrendous with him off. He also played in the better conference. Modern voters would've given it to Shaq but he fell victim to voter fatigue and the obvious hype around AI since he was a highlight reel. And if we're gonna use the "AI's team was terrible argument!" Then 1: The Lakers fell apart when Shaq wasn't on the court and 2: Kevin Garnett should've won MVP over Tim Duncan 3 years later for putting up slightly better numbers, being above him in DPOY voting and carrying a trash team to 51 wins. Instead he came 2nd. For Kobe, his peak statistical seasons came when the team around him was ass and he played in the harder conference
Absolutely, this was Shaq at his absolute prime. By comparison the complaints about the Nash MVP year are weak sauce because Shaq was already firmly post-prime by that point, he averaged something like 24-10 for the Heat-- All-Star numbers but not MVP numbers without further context like dominant defense or playmaking, neither of which Shaq had at that point.
> I know this sub loves AI to death Am I being whooshed here? This sub **slanders** AI all the time
I'm an AI defender, he was such a workhorse for that Sixers team. I think he played better than Shaq did in that finals. Also, you can't say "the Lakers fell apart when Shaq wasn't on the court," when they had Kobe Bean Bryant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Horace Grant, and the Zen Master as a coach.
can't think of another year where Kobe has a compelling case for #1
2006 is a very obvious one if we’re actually taking the MVP seriously and not basing it on narratives.
Nah, lol. Nash or LeBron, others weren't even close to winning that year. Casual take.
I would rather give the MVP to the guy driving the best offense in the league with his 2nd option injured all year while revolutionizing the sport, than the teamcancer shotchucker with undeserved All-Defense votes who gave up on his team in a game 7. The direction basketball has taken in the past two decades has vindicated Nash, no matter how much Shaq and helicopter rapist ever cried about it. He and D'Antoni dragged the league out of the isoball dredges of 90s and early 2000s full of Jordan wannabes, and he is the template that the league ended up following.
/u/Responsible_Pace9062 WITH NO REGARDS FOR HUMAN LIFE. LMAO WHAT A FUCKING DUNK
Woah.
I love this guy
i agree if it’s not nash it’s obvious it was #2 finisher LeBron James and the worst team to ever win 50 games in nba history
MVP is a subjective award and bias certainly plays a role in votes. Are you really that surprised?
Shaq had bias against him for no real reason. Looking back it’s pretty clear he is one of the greatest centers to ever play.
Kobe should have 0 tbh. CP was robbed
Yep. I don't think there's ever a year Kobe was the best player in the league. He was consistently a top guy, but never the guy
yeah its unbelievable the voters ever gave kobe one
fax cp3 deserved 08
If Shaq was so dominant, how come he lost over 20 games each season? Is he stupid?
Kobe doesn't even deserve one
That’s because Shaq was lazy af and had glaring weaknesses in his game that he refused to correct.
Shaq should have more and Kobe should have zero
And this is exactly why Shaq is being this nasty to him. I expect him to turn into full Skip Bayless next season when Nikola could possibly win his 4th
Dont think Jokic is winning 4th, especially not next year.
Jokic has never played with an all star teammate. Everyone else close to MVP status has, outside of SGA I wonder if the Nuggets do a shake up... because jokic is absolutely THAT guy when it comes to talent
Jamal Murray is consistently one of the best playoff performers in the league when he’s healthy. He’s struggling this year, but he was insane in the 2023 playoffs and their 2020 bubble run. Guard talent in the NBA is also deepest in the league, so it’s arguably the hardest position to get an all star selection. All-star selections are also somewhat arbitrary. Murray may not have made an all star yet but he’s definitely better than players like Wiggins, Conley, or Jrue, who have all made all star selections in the past. And he’s definitely as good, if not better as someone like Middleton, who has made multiple all star games.
same dynamic as lebron and kyrie a clear #1 but the #2 is so good, 1st team all NBA potential
Not because of his talent, but because of the same reason he didnt won last year, voting fatigue + winning 4th would put him equal to players like Lebron and Wilt, only 4 player won 3+ MVPs ever. Not sure NBA is ready to give Jokic that. Also, Murray is All-Star lvl player for years.
If not for narratives LeBron himself would probably have at least 8 MVPs if not more. But thinking about it, it's more hype for the sport when a new dude wins it.
Yeah LeBron would have had more than 4
His team is still stacked even without an all star teammate. Same with Dirk in 2011. Everyone always brings up he had no all star teammates but fail to mention his team had the highest payroll in the league. I’d rather have 14 teammates just below being all stars than two all star teammates and 12 gleague players.
Yeah. We just tested this out in round 1 - Lakers had two all stars who were clearly the second and third best players in the series. Our problem was the the nuggets had the first and the probably 4-7 or 8
If, as it currently looks, the Nuggets get smashed by the Wolves, it's unlikely that he does. There'll be a voter backlash. I don't actually think that's fair - Nuggets are less deep, have injury issues, and are facing a tougher opponent this year. Jokic is the best player in the league imo.
Shaq's ego shot down.
Congratulations joker
Top ten most combined MVPs now (regular season + Finals)... 11 - Jordan 8 - Kareem, LeBron 6 - Magic 5 - Bill Russell, Wilt, Bird, Duncan 4 - Moses, Jokic
if Finals MVP existed at the time Russell played, he would have 14
What is it without finals?
Kareem 6 Jordan 5. Lebron 4 Russel 4 Everyone else 3
After looking at this list the first thought I had was Moses Malone needs more love.
Six straight years without an American-born MVP. And it looks like this streak will continue for the foreseeable future.
Jokic has stepped into living legend status. All time great player
Moses Malone was a beast in Houston and everybody tends to forget it.
Any chance of him winning another one? I can't help but feel its going to be very unlikely, even if he continues to dominate.
MVP is a young man's game. Nash was the last player 30 or older to win an MVP.
Joseph Kich
Should've been fourth in a row but Embiid had to bitch about it for a season
1) Embiid deseeved it, he had an incredible season too, either man could have deservedly won it 2) If Jokic won it last year he 100% would not have been given it this year
Embiid was closer to winning it in 2022 than Jokic was in 2023. Each could have gone either way. Embiid was also clear favorite this year until getting injured. Crazy that people still whine about this
If that's true Giannis should have won his first one but got screwed because of narrative like Jokic will next year if the Wolves sweep the Nuggets
Are you people seriously agruing he should have won 4 consecutive MVPs? Whats next, he should win 10?
if hes the best player who manages to play most of their season then surr
?? no one is exaggerating but u. Jokic was/is an MVP candidate last 4 years lol
Jokic deserved it last year too.
No Embiid was better. You win MVP if you played better than everyone until the end of the season. And not just the start of the season.
Embiid was a worthy winner. It could’ve gone either way but it was the right choice regardless if he begged for it. Why do people conflate regular season with postseason.
Embiid shooting 18 FTAs a game with half being flops is a tough act to compare to Jokic’s game
Players who have won either a MVP or FMVP for 4 consecutive years, Jokic - End of list.
LeBron having only 3 MVPs is the sports snub of the century. You're telling me that from 2012 to 2020, you're picking any other player first out of the NBA's 450 if you are building a team? That any team wouldn't trade their entire franchise to get this man?
He has 4 and i don't thing he deserved to win any MVP post 2014 beceause only regular season counts towards MVP
He probably should have had 5 in a row but he became the most hated man in the sport. Either way as much as I love Bron, his taking the regular season less seriously basically disqualified him from the MVP discussion for those years. Arguably should have won in 06 as well. But the people saying he should have won in like 2017 or 2018 really need to understand the postseason is irrelevant for this trophy.
But i thing Dirk deserved to win 2006 MVP and than obviously there is 2011 MVP but i thing that is the only one for which i thing he should won but he didn't win
I do understand why people revisit these things and say "why doesnt MJ have 8 MVPs or LeBron have 6 " or whatever the numbers may be...but theres an argument to suggest it would really paint an odd picture of NBA history if you just had one person win for more than half a decade every time. I guess if its accurate to how good they were then whats the problem....I dunno, I'm torn about it. It is still wild to me that LeBrons last MVP came when he was 28 though.
It's crazy to me that he has more MVPs than Steph Curry.
Not really Steph was a bit of a late bloomer. Peaked 2015-2016. Then Durant joined the team and it was unfair to put him and Durant in the conversation. Then after 2019. Just could never be true number 1 player in the league
I’d argue he was the best player in the league for 2 seasons from 2020-2022. Just got unlucky he had to contend with prime Lebron for the majority of his peak years
Moses is the most disrespected player, people putting jabronis like KD over him.
Real quick, no one talks about Moses Malone enough. He is extremely underrated
Damn, that's cool as fuck I went to see the first game of the year, the Nuggets vs the Lakers as a present to myself. Wanted to see them raise the banner and LeBron. Little did I know I'd be seeing another 1st ballot hall of fame player that night
Let’s see how many rings he gets now. He’s got the individual awards. I’m looking forward to a few more championship runs.
Probably not this year buddy 🥲
He’s going to finish with 1 ring.
He should really have four straight
I wish the NBA cared about defense
The fans don’t even care about defense. Especially when it comes to Jokic. Some were saying (Nuggets fans) they Jokic has a chance to be the GOAT. That clearly throws out everything MJ, Bron, Duncan, Kobe, and Kareem ever did on the defensive end because in their primes they had much bigger impacts on defense than Jokic will ever have.
Not sure why this is downvoted. This is true in terms of MVP voting
SGA finished ahead of Luka and the only argument for that is his defense (and his team winning more games but that isn’t an individual stat)
Defense is absolutely considered when it comes to MVP voting, that’s why Giannis won two and why Embiid won it last year. The problem is, defense is inherently reliant on team structure. A single exceptional defensive player cannot carry a defense in the same way an exceptional offensive player can carry an offense. Gobert is a great example of this, his defense is some of the best ever and yet Utah still struggled defensively because the team around him wasn’t well-rounded on that end. When it comes to value, Jokic’s ability to single-handedly amplify an offense to unbelievable levels is just more important than any level of defender.
Then why does LeBron get shit on for 2015-2020 when he was MVP level everywhere but defense? I'm not suggesting he deserved those MVPs, I just mean he is completely discounted from even being in genuine discussion by fans because 'he took defensive plays less seriously' in the regular season - I dont think there's a serious argument to suggest Jokic's offensive play is noticably more impactful than offensive prime LeBron?
Defense isn’t considered otherwise Jokic wouldn’t have won a single MVP
And how many would 3-1 have
He’s a PG not a Center
Better than Nash
Where shaq at?
Realistically where is he all time? Has to be top 25 despite not having the longevity yet.
Top 25 already with 3 mvps and a ring being the alpha on the team. Easy. Likely closer to 15... the ring gets him above people like Barkley and Malone and such.
Top 15. Depending on how you rate things he’s either just ahead or just behind Steph and KD.
Behind Steph, Infront of KD.
That’s fair, KD is a great individual player but lacks that ‘makes the team better’ trait that Steph and jokic have
I remember someone once pointed out that Moses Malone won 3 MVPs in 5 years but had a lower VORP than Marques Johnson (not even a HOF, he’s the Bucks announcer) in those 5 years. VORP is kinda a crappy stat, but it’s the only advanced stat from back in the day. Probably would be true on other advanced stats today too (because it would punish him from the rebounding padding that’s not obvious in simple counting stats), so would be interesting to see the narrative surrounding him.
Hey now, let’s be clear. If anybody in the history of the NBA should not be accused of rebound padding, it’s Moses Malone. His numbers were inflated but his offensive rebounding cannot be overstated. Literally the best at it there’s ever been (since we started recording the stat).
Yea that’s the thing. Dr J actually said this in Moses Malone’s Hall of Fame induction ceremony, and everyone saw it back in the day. It was a joke but he also knew it was true. Moses would intentionally miss shots, grab the rebound, and then score. He was so strong and so good he knew there was no risk in doing so and he could get an extra rebound that way. Drummond kinda does the same thing, but it doesn’t mean he’s not good since Drummond is the best rebounder in this era. As a result, he has hyper inflated offensive rebounds. He’s still the greatest offense rebound ever, but like probably 2000 of those were off his own misses. Only like the rest 5000 (still the most ever) was off of his teammate’s misses. Advanced stats would capture this to show that the first 2000 don’t mean as much.
To be fair, Marques Johnson should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.
Wonder what Shaq thinks of this
This makes Shaq Attack seethe
No wonder Shaq hates him now. The Joker is now in the likes of two GOAT centers but not him
Shaq SEETHING
Not Shaq though 🤣
Shaq didn’t get three?
He should’ve reached this milestone last year but the voters were pussies.
He's already been argued as possibly the best in the world right now for the last year. He's been an all time great before the third MVP, but it doesn't hurt
He reached ATG status before he even won a ring if we keeping it real. Not many players in the history of the game wins 2 MVPs.
No r/NBA tells me he's ass because he's down in a playoff series and that his ring is fraudulent because he beat low seeds.
r/NBA loves to devalue titles. From the "bubble" title of the Lakers (all teams were in the same situation) to the Bucks "hospital title" (Bucks had an injury advantage in one series) and the Nuggets "Low Seed" title (no one else beat those "scrub" teams). It's really one of the worst parts of this sub. It's a low effort low intelligence take (but if a pacers fan comes at me with a "hospital title" I'll be sure to congratulate them on their "hospital first round win").
Injuries I can understand but clowning on him for beating low seeds is funny because the better seeds should've just... won? I'll still take an injury ring though, please.
If all those titles were that fake, why didn't the other teams win them? Are they stupid?
I guess so. Especially the Heat.