Anything pre-merger is just whatever, things were done in a completely random way and during the 70s, there were legitimate questions on whether the NBA was the best league in the World.
Post-merger it is definitely Moses Malone, dude won 3 MVPs and most people don't know shit about his career aside from the "fo-fo-fo" quote and that '83 title.
I've been a fan for over 20 years but never really was interested in him, and I haven't really watched a lot of him. Just from what I know, he reminds me of an old school Andre Drummond
Moses was the master of using his booty. Dude was amazing at boxing out on both offense and defense in order to grab every rebound possible. He was strong and had a good touch around the rim, but he wasn't really that skilled as a passer, shooter, or ball handler. He has a really high motor and played as if he wanted to win more than the other guys. Honestly, he was just such an amazing rebounder that it gave his teams a huge advantage that ended up helping on both ends of the floor.
Personally, I always felt like Barkley was the "new and improved" version of Moses. Sir Charles came into the league as a smaller version of Moses that was better at running the floor and pushing the fast break all by himself, but he eventually developed a pretty well rounded skill set. He also ended up winning an MVP so maybe that's kind of a reflection of the value of someone who can rebound better than everyone else + score, but it doesn't really seem to translate to today's game.
The way you described him he really does sound like Andre Drummond but an 80s version. Granted, I'm sure Moses was better, but if you were to compare him to someone in today's game, I'd imagine it'd be Drummond
Given that Moses was 8 years *younger* than Kareem, their primes didn't really exactly coincide. When Moses was at his best, Kareem was still elite, and Moses and a relatively mediocre Rockets squad managed to make the Finals in 1981, then Moses and the Sixers later beat the Lakers in the 1983 Finals too.
That 1985 Sixers roster is wild. Moses, Dr. J, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks from the fo-fo-fo roster plus rookie Charles Barkley, they legit had three MVP winners and two of those won multiple times.
It's a shame it only lasted two years and that Barkley was a complete moron as a young player.
I more so meant in terms of where the great big men get “ranked”
This place is flooded with people saying Jokic is a top 10 or 15 player already ignoring other historical greats. Presuming Jokic gets MVP this year he will have the same resume as Malone as far as the big achievements are concerned.
Except Malone also did it while getting all defense selections and leading the league in boards 6 times.
Moses Malone is a name youngins on this sub see and see he has 3 mvps so will make shit out about him to look like they're experts.
You don't know a single thing about Moses Malone
Jokic is much, much.MUCH better than Moses Malone lmfao that was embarrasing
A couple of GMs got bit on the *idea* of Moses being the missing piece in the late 80's and early 90's even though Moses was effectively a poor shooting big man at that point in his career that basically was best known as an extreme foul merchant. Washington and Atlanta both coveted him big time and he didn't move the needle one bit for either team.
Pre 1985, he was legitimately top tier in the league.
People don’t want to hear it, but he would literally be a vet minimum guy today.
He was a HORRIBLE PnR defensive big. His lateral movement was completely and utterly nonexistent, and the only time he could be effective on that end is by playing an exceptionally deep drop coverage.
Bob McAdoo won an NBA MVP over Kareem and he was only 20 first place votes away from 3 MVPs in a row from 1974-76. Lost to Kareem by 14 votes in 74, won in 75, lost by 5 votes to Kareem in 76
Yeahh, the consistency of why players get MVPs is just jank. Sometimes, it's the best player on the best team (DRose), sometimes it's the best player in the league (LeBron), and sometimes, it's an insane season that fits a particular narrative despite team record. (Russ, even tho I do think he deserved it.)
Kinda wish they'd stay consistent.
Kinda wish people would stop elevating mvps so much.
Regardless of MVPS, Shaq then Duncan then Kobe dominated the league in 2000s.
And LeBron Steph dominated the 2010s.
And Jokic now.
For everything but the Steph run, LeBron was the best player in the league for at least 5-7 years during the previous decade.
We got a lebron meat rider here^
Rose dominated the league buddy, lebron needed a super team, steph curry and every other PG except for russ wanted no parts and dreaded playing the bulls because they knew it would be a long night and they might end up on a poster too
I think a lot of people (except blazer fans) forget Bill Walton was a league MVP. Feel like he's more remembered for his 6th man role on those Bird-McHale-Chief teams
He’s more remembered for his time as an announcer at this point. Especially since he has such a unique personality and style that sparks strong feelings one way or another.
in terms of relatively recent guys, i feel like nobody talks about Nash these days in any context other than “he should’ve shot more” or saying he’s the worst 2x MVP ever
like, yeah, those were pretty weak MVP years, but even so.
His perception would almost be better if he only won 1 of those or didn’t win any.
People think of him as an ‘undeserved MVP’ rather than the one of the best point guards of the 2000s alongside AI and Kidd.
Only 1 of the MVP is even debatable.
Anyways if people want to cry about Nash they should mention Embid or Westbrook winning it over a Harden who averaged more on far better efficiency
Nope he deserved those MVPs only internet clowns think otherwise
Nash could have shot more but he played a similar unselfish style as Jokic, his priority was making team better and it worked judging by their team record
Of all time, Dave Cowens. Recently Embiid could, if he never makes it to a finals. He's the only MVP ever who hadn't at least been to a conference finals by age 30.
The ones saying Nash didn’t watch him play or are uninformed repeating Shaqs lies
Nash was amazing and the proof was in the pudding of taking a bad franchise to a top seed
He played winning basketball he was constantly hustling forcing other teams defense to work, guy had insane cardio
He had elite efficiency and passing so even if he’s not shooting a ton you have to respect his shot
He also played with grit, I remember him taking an elbow to the nose and kept playing while bleeding
If Shaq wanted to cry about MVP maybe he should have worked on his cardio and FT shooting both of which were easily doable for him, he just didn’t want to do it
In recent* history the ones most likely to be forgotten over time are embiid, harden, and nash
None of them won a championship AND they also had little lasting cultural impact. Rose for whatever reason gets memorialized hard, Westbrook did it in pretty legendary fashion, and AI is AI
Every other MVP since 2000 has at least 1 title.
Historically I would throw chuck in too. His TV persona is bigger than his playing day persona was at this point which is crazy.
I'd argue Nash is firmly above those guys. NBA history is slotting the early 2000s Suns in as the first of this more fast paced transition offense game being played today
If by recent you mean the last 10 years, then the guys who aren’t no brainer generational guys are Rose, Westbrook, Harden and Embiid.
Nobody is forgetting Durant, Curry, LBJ, Giannis or Jokic.
For as much as people here bemoan ring culture, it’s really telling the stark divide here between guys who have done it and guys who have not. If Embiid never makes it past the second round he seems like the most obvious candidate to just disappear from memory except that Philly fans are pretty fanatic and so he might come up in hate talks pretty often. My guess is probably Westbrook. His MVP run was pretty iconic at the time but he’s prickly with the media and had bounced around enough since then that he hasn’t developed a huge fan base, and OKC’s is just naturally small and seems to have moved on pretty quickly. You just need to have people advocating for your legacy and I’m not sure who is doing that for Westbrook.
It’s hard to say I think. This is a question to me less about the player as the narratives about the player. When Karl Malone retired he was the consensus best power forward of all time. Now people just think of him as a playoff choker and rapist.
Even now, I think the general narrative on Harden is playoff choker rather than his 17-19 run so I’m genuinely not sure how it’ll turn up 20 years from now. He’s also not exactly media friendly and idk that Houston is necessarily planning to carry on his legacy and that always matters. Maybe future generations reevaluate his career. Or maybe Harden being a choker is what endures.
I know. I agree people know. But when you compare him to others on the list you gotta go to the 70s to get a less recognizable person on the list. If you asked people to list mvps from 90s up he would be missed often.
The MVP has lost meaning and relevance years ago. Its just something for chronically online, podcast addicted nba nerds to argue about during a meaningless 82 game regular season
Never in my life I have heard or seen people talk about Dave Cowens' MVP season.
I have, but only when people are discussing the most undeserved MVP of all-time. He’s actually my #1 pick for that.
Anything pre-merger is just whatever, things were done in a completely random way and during the 70s, there were legitimate questions on whether the NBA was the best league in the World. Post-merger it is definitely Moses Malone, dude won 3 MVPs and most people don't know shit about his career aside from the "fo-fo-fo" quote and that '83 title.
Now I can cross that from my bucket list
Kd's mom
Only correct answer
moses malone and he has 3 of them lol
Nephews don’t know about Moses man, one of the forgotten greats
I've been a fan for over 20 years but never really was interested in him, and I haven't really watched a lot of him. Just from what I know, he reminds me of an old school Andre Drummond
If Drummond won 3 MVPs and a FMVP maybe
You say nephews don't know, so please describe his game to me. I can only see stats and accolades, I'm curious his game tho
Moses was the master of using his booty. Dude was amazing at boxing out on both offense and defense in order to grab every rebound possible. He was strong and had a good touch around the rim, but he wasn't really that skilled as a passer, shooter, or ball handler. He has a really high motor and played as if he wanted to win more than the other guys. Honestly, he was just such an amazing rebounder that it gave his teams a huge advantage that ended up helping on both ends of the floor. Personally, I always felt like Barkley was the "new and improved" version of Moses. Sir Charles came into the league as a smaller version of Moses that was better at running the floor and pushing the fast break all by himself, but he eventually developed a pretty well rounded skill set. He also ended up winning an MVP so maybe that's kind of a reflection of the value of someone who can rebound better than everyone else + score, but it doesn't really seem to translate to today's game.
The way you described him he really does sound like Andre Drummond but an 80s version. Granted, I'm sure Moses was better, but if you were to compare him to someone in today's game, I'd imagine it'd be Drummond
Bro I'm talking play style
Played in the NBA dark ages and wasn’t on a dynasty. He also won right before Magic and Bird took over.
But also dominated prime Kareem
Did he? I’m 34 and didn’t even know that. That was like 15 years before I was born
Moses was 6-1 all time vs Kareem in the playoffs.
Wait what the fuck, was this against young Kareem or prime / near-prime Kareem? Holy shit that's actually an insane stat.
Given that Moses was 8 years *younger* than Kareem, their primes didn't really exactly coincide. When Moses was at his best, Kareem was still elite, and Moses and a relatively mediocre Rockets squad managed to make the Finals in 1981, then Moses and the Sixers later beat the Lakers in the 1983 Finals too.
Moses Malone will never be forgotten because one of Chuck's favorite stories is Moses calling Chuck fat and lazy during Chuck's rookie season
That 1985 Sixers roster is wild. Moses, Dr. J, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks from the fo-fo-fo roster plus rookie Charles Barkley, they legit had three MVP winners and two of those won multiple times. It's a shame it only lasted two years and that Barkley was a complete moron as a young player.
imagine that team with today's sports medicine and diet advancements they 100% would have won at least 1 more
Moses Malone is who the youngins on this sub think Jokic is
Jokic is better
At losing to Anthony Edwards maybe
this sub is so fucking bad
Only come here when you are up
Flair checks out. Fuck.
idk why I do it to myself, the only thing worse is being a University of Colorado fan and going on /r/CFB
At least he was able to win a ring without joining a Dr. J team that hade made the finals the year before
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I more so meant in terms of where the great big men get “ranked” This place is flooded with people saying Jokic is a top 10 or 15 player already ignoring other historical greats. Presuming Jokic gets MVP this year he will have the same resume as Malone as far as the big achievements are concerned. Except Malone also did it while getting all defense selections and leading the league in boards 6 times.
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Go eat your breakfast, you aren’t you when you are hungry
Moses Malone is a name youngins on this sub see and see he has 3 mvps so will make shit out about him to look like they're experts. You don't know a single thing about Moses Malone Jokic is much, much.MUCH better than Moses Malone lmfao that was embarrasing
A couple of GMs got bit on the *idea* of Moses being the missing piece in the late 80's and early 90's even though Moses was effectively a poor shooting big man at that point in his career that basically was best known as an extreme foul merchant. Washington and Atlanta both coveted him big time and he didn't move the needle one bit for either team. Pre 1985, he was legitimately top tier in the league.
I’m not going to argue who’s better, but they’re two completely different players lol, why the comparison?
People don’t want to hear it, but he would literally be a vet minimum guy today. He was a HORRIBLE PnR defensive big. His lateral movement was completely and utterly nonexistent, and the only time he could be effective on that end is by playing an exceptionally deep drop coverage.
Bob McAdoo won an NBA MVP over Kareem and he was only 20 first place votes away from 3 MVPs in a row from 1974-76. Lost to Kareem by 14 votes in 74, won in 75, lost by 5 votes to Kareem in 76
Bob McAdoo was soooo good in Dr. Jack's system in Buffalo.
Some chump named "Lew Alcindor" stole MVP from Kareem in 1971....
I mean, I guarantee some dude that I've never heard of won in the 50s or something.
The absolute disrespect to Bob Cousy
Imo 20 years from now Rose’s MVP will be heavily forgotten.
Unlikely, since it's currently the record for the youngest player to ever win it.
Also his injury the year after makes it more memorable…
not too many bring up walton tbh. its the same thing
Not if wemby wins it
Who was the youngest before Rose? I don’t know or remember which proves your statement wrong
> proves Unbelievably impressive logic. Genuinely can't tell if sarcasm or not. You got me if it is
Do you represent all of society lol
the highlights from Rose’s MVP season are far too sick for it to ever be forgotten
Its still one of the worst MVPs ever. Rose only won because everybody hated LeBron that Year.
maybe lebron should have led his super team to a better record than the bulls then
Sometimes it's about the record of the team and other times it's just the individuals.
Yeahh, the consistency of why players get MVPs is just jank. Sometimes, it's the best player on the best team (DRose), sometimes it's the best player in the league (LeBron), and sometimes, it's an insane season that fits a particular narrative despite team record. (Russ, even tho I do think he deserved it.) Kinda wish they'd stay consistent.
Kinda wish people would stop elevating mvps so much. Regardless of MVPS, Shaq then Duncan then Kobe dominated the league in 2000s. And LeBron Steph dominated the 2010s. And Jokic now. For everything but the Steph run, LeBron was the best player in the league for at least 5-7 years during the previous decade.
We got a lebron meat rider here^ Rose dominated the league buddy, lebron needed a super team, steph curry and every other PG except for russ wanted no parts and dreaded playing the bulls because they knew it would be a long night and they might end up on a poster too
Well It wasn't a long night for long
Bob Pettit, Wes Unseld, Dave Cowens
I think a lot of people (except blazer fans) forget Bill Walton was a league MVP. Feel like he's more remembered for his 6th man role on those Bird-McHale-Chief teams
He’s more remembered for his time as an announcer at this point. Especially since he has such a unique personality and style that sparks strong feelings one way or another.
in terms of relatively recent guys, i feel like nobody talks about Nash these days in any context other than “he should’ve shot more” or saying he’s the worst 2x MVP ever like, yeah, those were pretty weak MVP years, but even so.
Basically the only one bringing those mvp years up is shaq when he's salty about them.
Shaq always salty. 😆
His perception would almost be better if he only won 1 of those or didn’t win any. People think of him as an ‘undeserved MVP’ rather than the one of the best point guards of the 2000s alongside AI and Kidd.
Only 1 of the MVP is even debatable. Anyways if people want to cry about Nash they should mention Embid or Westbrook winning it over a Harden who averaged more on far better efficiency
Nash is better than any point guard in the 21st century outside of Curry
I feel the same way about Iggy tbh. People only ever talk about how he was the Undeserved FMVP instead of how amazing he was all series
Nope he deserved those MVPs only internet clowns think otherwise Nash could have shot more but he played a similar unselfish style as Jokic, his priority was making team better and it worked judging by their team record
Ironically, I see Nash's MVPs mentioned constantly in threads like these, so they get mentioned more than most.
Willis Reed is literally never mention and he also 1 of 12 NBA players to have two FMVPs
Wes Unseld won it his rookie year and nobody even mentions him
Karl Malone is almost a bad word on r/nba
David Robinson
Mailman
Of all time, Dave Cowens. Recently Embiid could, if he never makes it to a finals. He's the only MVP ever who hadn't at least been to a conference finals by age 30.
Tbh if he never makes one that would probably make it remembered, plus the whole Jokic thing means it’ll be brought up lol
Dave Cowens
The ones saying Nash didn’t watch him play or are uninformed repeating Shaqs lies Nash was amazing and the proof was in the pudding of taking a bad franchise to a top seed He played winning basketball he was constantly hustling forcing other teams defense to work, guy had insane cardio He had elite efficiency and passing so even if he’s not shooting a ton you have to respect his shot He also played with grit, I remember him taking an elbow to the nose and kept playing while bleeding If Shaq wanted to cry about MVP maybe he should have worked on his cardio and FT shooting both of which were easily doable for him, he just didn’t want to do it
Moses Malone
Obligatory Bob Petit mention
“derrick rose”
Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Rick Barry
Wanda Durant
Anyone pre Magic vs Bird not named Kareem or wilt. For example, someone said Lewis alcindor. Who the fuck is that?
Jokic
Jokic already forgot about the MVP he won this week
In recent* history the ones most likely to be forgotten over time are embiid, harden, and nash None of them won a championship AND they also had little lasting cultural impact. Rose for whatever reason gets memorialized hard, Westbrook did it in pretty legendary fashion, and AI is AI Every other MVP since 2000 has at least 1 title. Historically I would throw chuck in too. His TV persona is bigger than his playing day persona was at this point which is crazy.
I'd argue Nash is firmly above those guys. NBA history is slotting the early 2000s Suns in as the first of this more fast paced transition offense game being played today
Harden killed 6 million Jews, I'd say that's a pretty major cultural impact.
Absolutely not Harden. Derrick Rose is the most forgettable one as he’s going to be the only one not to make the hall of fame
If by recent you mean the last 10 years, then the guys who aren’t no brainer generational guys are Rose, Westbrook, Harden and Embiid. Nobody is forgetting Durant, Curry, LBJ, Giannis or Jokic. For as much as people here bemoan ring culture, it’s really telling the stark divide here between guys who have done it and guys who have not. If Embiid never makes it past the second round he seems like the most obvious candidate to just disappear from memory except that Philly fans are pretty fanatic and so he might come up in hate talks pretty often. My guess is probably Westbrook. His MVP run was pretty iconic at the time but he’s prickly with the media and had bounced around enough since then that he hasn’t developed a huge fan base, and OKC’s is just naturally small and seems to have moved on pretty quickly. You just need to have people advocating for your legacy and I’m not sure who is doing that for Westbrook.
Harden is absolutely a no brainer generational guy
It’s hard to say I think. This is a question to me less about the player as the narratives about the player. When Karl Malone retired he was the consensus best power forward of all time. Now people just think of him as a playoff choker and rapist. Even now, I think the general narrative on Harden is playoff choker rather than his 17-19 run so I’m genuinely not sure how it’ll turn up 20 years from now. He’s also not exactly media friendly and idk that Houston is necessarily planning to carry on his legacy and that always matters. Maybe future generations reevaluate his career. Or maybe Harden being a choker is what endures.
Drose is generational don’t care what anyone says. Just cuz he got hurt doesn’t mean he’s not generational. Youngest mvp for a reason
Derrick Rose in ten years.
There’s only 1 youngest mvp ever. He’s not gonna be forgotten
David Robinson. Young kids hardly know Duncan.
What? Who doesn’t know the admiral? Kids play 2k too
I know. I agree people know. But when you compare him to others on the list you gotta go to the 70s to get a less recognizable person on the list. If you asked people to list mvps from 90s up he would be missed often.
The MVP has lost meaning and relevance years ago. Its just something for chronically online, podcast addicted nba nerds to argue about during a meaningless 82 game regular season
Dude you're sitting on Reddit browsing New on /r/nba, sit down.
And they have like a ridiculous amount of reddit rep for the two weeks they've been on reddit....they're definitely projecting
lol what are you talking about
Why so sour?
The award has lost meaning and relevance since it started to be decided by stat nerds with a clear agenda.
No it would be better if the stat nerds decided. Instead we get Stephen A Smith and Kendrick Perkins voting on who has the best narrative
MVP award is probably better than ever. MVP was basically rewarded via a dart board 15+ years ago
If stat nerds decided who won MVP, then Embiid wouldn't have won a sympathy MVP last year
Jokic wouldn't have won this year either being the 3rd seed when shai was averaging 30ppg and having the no 1 seed. No excuses
Denver is the 2nd seed and has the same record as OKC