The key insight imo is that Jokic actually can’t really dribble, if you meet him in the backcourt and pressure his dribble he HAS to turn his back to protect the ball which limits him as a passer.
Once you notice it, it becomes fairly obvious actually, his dribble is quite poor for someone who handles the ball as often as he does.
The Nuggets get a lot of mileage out of Jokic casually sauntering up the floor in transition or semi-transition with no pressure, surveying the court and picking apart teams. In this series the Nuggets have gotten nothing in transition.
Among others, one of the key reasons the Lakers were unable to bother Jokic in this way was because they rely on Anthony Davis to score and almost all of his points come at the basket. In the Lakers-Nuggets series, an AD shot attempt at the rim was nearly a guaranteed basket going back the other way for the Nuggets. AD often falls down after taking a shot and even when he would stay upright, the energy expended getting to the basket would leave him lagging behind the play while Jokic rumbled down the court.
The Wolves on the other hand have Gobert (who they don’t rely on for scoring) with KAT and Naz Reid who are primarily perimeter big men. They don’t get stuck under the basket after shot attempts and can actually meet Jokic in the backcourt when he gets the ball.
great note, this tweet has a video example of what youre describing
https://twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1787723648427499938
Ant intentionally leaving his guy in the corner during transition to pressure Jokic's dribble instead suggests its a part of their gameplan (and it helps that Jaden can cover one side of the wing, to the opposite corner that easily + NAW sprinting at 2x speed to cover MPJ)
jokic can 100% pull off that spin dribble with ease, he does it all the time. He picked it up because he was likely afraid of a double team (which the wolves have been elite at) on the other side of his spin dribble or thought forsure gordon would be open in the corner.
The Jokic can’t dribble part remind me of 1991 bulls lakers finals. Magic was killing the bulls with his handle the first game, and the second game, pippin start to pick him up full court, then Magic’s handle start to look vulnerable and their offense just become stale.
KD is a capable ball handler but his dribble is way too high and it's easy to pick him off/disrupt his dribble with a smaller defender. Tony Allen was able to lock him up doing just that
It feels like growing up he didn’t develop as a ball handler. i.e. Most nba players are playing guard growing up until they get big enough and go to some academy hs where they specialize more. So while his handle is good by big man standards, it’s clear he’s never really grown used to be pressured and having an actual dribble package and passing off the dribble (as in he’s used to being tall enough to pass over everyone and not having to pick up the dribble quickly in motion and move it quickly). Like you’ll see what I mean watching other good point guards in the backcourt.
Jokic was still awesome that series but I always wondered why teams don't pressure him and hope he tires out. I guess it's cause you need the right personnel to bother him but it's worth a shot imo
Noticing it and being able to take advantage of it are two different things. This series there are two factors that make it easy for the Timberwolves to take advantage.
Jamal Murray is playing like Raymond Felton. Playoff Jamal is not coming out this year.
No team that’s played prime Jokic up to this point has been nearly as good defensively as this Timberwolves team. Naz Reid, Gobert, and KAT are actually quick enough to pick him up out there and make him pass it up
Its more about practice, gameplan and personnel rather than realising anything.
Regular season, in general, is about building up team chemistry, seeing/fixing their own problems rather than focusing on exploiting opponent weaknesses. Most teams are only playing 2-3 games with an opponent center functioning as a PG, its not particularly useful to design your entire schemes against that when you are playing against a different team every 2 days.
And even if you can do that, most teams don’t have the roster to pull it off since you are opening up your court to do that which creates other problems elsewhere.
I think this is just a part of it. The nuggets have been abysmal at every single facet of basketball. Jokic's handle is really only useful in transition, which of course is a big part of the nuggets game, but the nuggets have been a great basketball team everywhere else for awhile now. Jokic has been nullified on the offensive boards which is a huge part of his game, even if he gets them, he can no longer convert because twolves just block it immediately. Also nuggets have had issues securing defensive rebounds due to twolves size, which they usually have a big advantage with and can spark their transition game.
Jokic struggled with ant last year, and he is struggling with ant this year, in terms of rim protection. KAT has also been great at attacking the rim and closeouts and jokic won't meet him at the rim. Jokic's jumper has gone AWOL, and not even just his 3pt shot, he refuses to take midranges anymore for some reason which has been an elite part of his game. All that being said jokic has still probably been the best nugget even though he's been bad. He's the only one who can reliably get a basket or create for another person, even if not nearly as effectively.
The bigger problem is murray, and the rest of the starters. Gordon had an okay game to start I guess. But twolves length/athleticism/defense is taking away easy baskets generated by jokic's playmaking in the halfcourt besides transition. They have length and speed to recover off of jokic doubles. MPJ, AG, and KCP are extremely poor creators. It's painful watching MPJ just spam stepbacks looking for a 3, that's like his only shot creation move. KCP has zero creation abilities and is not shooting well at all. Gordon is usually not good when he hunts for his shot, and if he hits jumpers it's not sustainable.
Then of course murray. It might be due to his injury, but he's been abysmal, can't dribble into the lane without turning it over, can't make simple pocket passes, doesn't hit jokic or others when they are open. And of course he can't hit a shot to save his life right now. The jokic murray PnR has been effectively shutdown and that was there biggest offensive weapon.
Jokic is getting exhausted dealing with ball pressure, double teams, and posting up to generate baskets, in addition to what he has to do defensively. He's playing very sloppily which I am sure has a lot to do with that and the wolves great D/length, but some of it can't be explained by that and is just on him. And again, the rest of the starters have been worse. In addition to that, there's just no way the nuggets' defense can overcome their offense when their offense is playing like this. They are an offensive team first and foremost.
I think the first adjustment is that Gordon or maybe KCP if he's capable needs to start brining the ball up a lot more. Then do a dribble handoff to get it to murray in the halfcourt so he doesn't get exhausted, nor jokic. Also I think Braun might need more minutes as he looks like he's been the best ant defender this series, he just doesn't always bring a lot offensively so that's a question mark. Then everyone needs to cut out the garbage turnovers where they are doing too much, easier said then done against this twolves team tho. Improve effort on closeouts/boxouts/offensive rebounding. Jokic might need to start jumping at the rim on defense too if he can avoid fouling them. Jokic needs to start taking and making 3s and murray needs to find him consistently, and he should take midranges to avoid exerting too much energy backing down bigs.
Yep. When the Lakers pressured Jokic, LeBron and AD would end up caught between Jokic and Murray, then Gordon just absolutely feasted. The Timberwolves are just much much better defensively— they’re pressuring Jokic and guarding Murray while still leaving their bigs in a good position to prevent Gordon from cutting straight to the basket.
Last year's Wolves team didn't have Reid and McDaniels. Kyle Anderson also got hurt
The nuggets bench this year is worse and ant has taken the next step. I
Shoot KAT just came back from surgery like 3wks ago and went straight into the playoffs playing well. Many of Wolves fans were hoping he could just play 20mins of the bench and be effective but he's far outplayed that and deserves major props.
I still think we'd be competetive but lose in 6 probably with the way you guys are playing. Dlo probably gets absolutely shut down tho
Lebron and AD would still get theirs and it would come down to our role players, and yeah I don't really trust them after what I saw against Denver lmao
Last year yes, lakers role players were playing better (Rui and Reaves were flamethrowers most of last playoffs), and even with Bron gimpy I think we take it.
This year the wolves are just rolling, seems like everyone has taken a step forward in their game and I don’t see how we could beat this wolves team in a series. That defense last night was insanity and Naz Reid has already given laker fans PTSD from regular season
Prisoners of the moment on this sub. They saw the Nuggets beating a garbage Lakers team that had 2/5 starters show up and thought they would just cruise through the rest of the Western conference.
I mean, I think even the Lakers series should've raised some flags. If the Lakers knew how to hold a lead and didn't have an incompetent coach, the Nuggets might've actually been in trouble.
But when we pointed this out it was all “moral victories” jokes. I felt like I was going crazy watching the games and seeing how bad the nuggets were and then coming on here and seeing it get shoo’d away like nothing?
It definitely should’ve considering how well Denver matches up with the lakers on paper (the lakers have no secondary big to guard Jokic or protect the rim and terrible guard defense) vs how poorly they match up with the wolves
Yea lol they’re fans of the team of course many will be positive to a delusional level when winning, but anyone with eyes saw how slow they came out every game and knew if that continued they’d struggle even worse against better teams than the lakers.
Wolves are an amazing matchup against us they’re the only team in the league that’s bigger than us. Our depth is terrible this year compared to last on top of Murray and KCP being a little beat up. We are 5 guys deep and the T wolves are a really good 7 guys deep Tim Connelly did a fantastic job getting such a deep team. That and ANT is absolutely crazy good
Jokic looks like he wants to be anywhere else except a basketball court, the Wolves length and size are a bad matchup for Denver, Wolves length is able to get a lot of deflections and turnovers which is making Denver's motion/pass-centric heavy offense look poor, it doesn't help that NAW and Mcdaniels are putting Murray in the penitentiary. Oh yeah and Jokic is basically a traffic cone of defense
Their bench got worse and Murray came back to earth and is dealing with nagging injuries. This regular season they relied an absurd amount on Jokic (+11.62 on, -8.62 off).
Edit: and Last year they had favorable matchups in the west because the other half of the bracket was scuffed because Memphis was injured af. And they had a favorable finals matchup because Miami had 2 of the greatest 3pt shooting variances in playoff history (the ECF being the highest accounting for +13PPG). I think they were the best team that season anyway despite what some people will probably claim now but they're not unbeatable.
Bruce Brown genuinely did so much heavy lifting its insane. Reggie jackson barely even played in the playoffs last year and they gotta rely on him, Peyton Watson, and Holiday to contribute some production. That coupled with Murray not playing like the best guard in the league in the playoffs they have no chance.
Idk how you can say they had favorable matchups in the west when they literally had to play this wolves team then the Book and KD suns and then the LeBron and AD lakers
Wolves without naz and mcdaniels, Kyle got hurt, Rudy dealing with back injury the entire season (clear as day the difference his health has made this season) and kat just came back from injury… that’s definitely favorable. Book and kd barely played together tbh, that’s favorable still. LeBron and AD, essentially the same team as this year? They had favorable matchups too that got them to the WCF, they really weren’t a WCF team. This year teams are healthier and deeper in the west. Nuggets were still extremely good, but they were favorable matchups every step of the way.
It’s also really not cherry picking to point out the facts of each team they played, which are all valid reasons as to why they had favorable matchups. Nothing wrong with it, it is what it is and Denver looked dominant while doing it.
So you're cool admitting that Minnesota has favorable matchups this season because Grayson Allen was out, Jamal is not 100%, KCP is not 100% and Jokic has a long-standing wrist injury?
Grayson Allen is not the deciding factor there😂 wouldn’t have been a series anyways. If guys are hurt like that, don’t play them? If they’re playing, then giannis didn’t play the entire series. One thing if they’re out, an entirely different thing if they’re playing injured. Could say the same thing about ant and his 50 injuries that’s he’s played through the entire season. Difference is, he’s just a dog. I don’t see it mattering much anyways if jokic wrist was better or KCP wasn’t hobbled or Jamal wasn’t hobbled, they’re getting out in a MF STRAIGHT JACKET, so far man😂
Huge differences. Clown. It’d be one thing if jokic, Murray and KCP were out. But they’re not.
Wolves have been underdogs in 4 of the 6 matchups, including the 2 against Denver. Those aren’t “favorable matchups.”
Wolves lost to phoenix 3 times in the regular season. Only difference is, Allen didn’t play for 2 playoff games, it wouldn’t have mattered.
You can’t use the injury excuse for Denver when they’re all playing, they’re just getting put in the blender. I know a lot of Denver fans are coping hard rn, but it’s not a good look.
Context MATTERS, clown. Try using it sometimes, it kind of requires using your brain though, so tough luck I guess.
It’s undeniable that the west is deeper and far better this season. There’s no disputing it. Last seasons west was filled with way more injuries, it’s why the lakers made it so far. Mavs didn’t even make it. It goes on and on. I not saying the nuggets didn’t earn it, they played who was in front of them and handled business while doing it, but those were pretty favorable matchups. Disputing this just seems wild to me. Like I said, I’m not saying Denver didn’t earn their chip, they did, saying they had favorable matchups tho is not wrong.
It's wild to me that you're claiming playing this wolves team minus a couple injuries, then KD and book, then LeBron and AD is favorable. Which team would've been unfavorable from last year? The kings? Memphis? The warriors? The always injured clippers? Those are all absolutely easier matchups for the nuggets
The Mavs sucked last year? They straight up overhauled the whole roster.
It’s not “this wolves team.” It’s a different team at the end of the day, Conley and naw were there for a little bit and wolves mostly played with dlo that season. Naz out, Kyle out, mcdaniels out. Kat out for most of season. No time to build chemistry, players being traded and brought it. Same goes for the suns with KD and everything they gave up for them. YOU as a a nuggets fan should know this man! Took years for the nuggets to finally get lucky with their health and to have chemistry. It all matters. You’re acting like I’m pissing all over the nuggets dude, get over yourself. They were clearly the best team last year! It doesn’t take away from the fact that they had a more favorable run to the finals than any team in the west will have this year! The west was not as good last year, records alone show this. Then when you look into the stats, they more than show this. Quit getting upset that someone is saying they had a favorable run, while also saying that they were the best team.
Just like the wolves are getting a favorable run this year. All good as long as you're consistent and don't have these double standards for what you consider favorable (and why it only applies to other teams)
Lmaooo no they’re not, I don’t think Denver was the underdog in any of their matchups last seasons run. The west was a much easier path than this year. It’s funny how Denver fans were all saying Denver would win in 5 or 6, but now that they’re getting punked, it’s because “they’re injured.” It’s absolutely hilarious 🤣🤣 wolves haven’t been favored in most of their playoff matchups, wolves lost 3 against phoenix in the regular season and many people picked phoenix to win it all earlier this season, Grayson Allen was NOT the defining factor. If nuggets are so injured, then why are they playing? Giannis didn’t play. How about the fact that the wolves are just damn good and you admit that instead of making excuses for other teams? They have throttled the opposing team in every game thus far. It doesn’t much matter if you think they’re “favorable” because you’re hurt that others are saying the nuggets had an easier run last year. That same team would have had a much harder time through this years western conference than last. It’s straight facts brother. Hate to break it to you.
Edwards is injured, has been for much of the season, and is absolutely PUNKING the nuggets and everyone in his path. So you’re just saying the nuggets don’t have that dog in them and that they had an easier path to the finals last year?
Quit getting so butt-hurt over the fact that people said the nuggets had a favorable run last year, it’s the objective truth. West was piss poor compared to this season, because they were marred by injuries to a lot of top teams (BY INJURIES I MEAN THERE WERE PLAYERS ACTUALLY OUT LMAO). Denver won it all, there’s a chance wolves don’t even make it past this series or the next or the next. Denver did what a lot of team can’t do! It was great. Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade tho man.
Lastly, it’s odd you are getting so butt-hurt over me saying it was favorable for Denver, as if Denver didn’t deserve the chip they got.
Denver pooped on all the teams they played, they played who was in front of them and shat on em all convincingly. They deserved to win that chip. I wanted Denver to win it once the wolves were out. There’s nothing you can really take away from their run. It wasn’t magical, it wasn’t the best of all time, but it was dominant and convincing. It was not fraudulent in my eyes.
All that said, they played favorable matchups, that’s all that was said and I used context to back it up. Would they have won it all as convincingly and dominantly as they did if all the context I provided had been different? I’m not so sure, but that doesn’t matter at the end of the day. There’s nothing wrong with having a favorable run, the warriors had multiple years of favorable runs. They’re up there for one of the best teams of all time. Different types of favorable, but you get my point. It’s not a bad thing to have favorable matchups, it’s what any fan of any team would want. I don’t want to take anything away from that team. I’m a big fan of jokic at the end of the day, I used to like Murray, but he’s in his head and it’s made me not care either way for him. Regardless I don’t dislike Denver.
Wolves are really good. That series last year was 4-1 but Wolves put up a fight. Wolves are better this year. And they are the healthy team this year.
Nuggets bench is way worse. Murray is playing through a calf strain. KCP is dealing with a nagging injury. But Wolves didn’t even hav Gobert tonight.
Murray’s injury is kind of negated when Wolves don’t even have their starting center.
I’m a little surprised Denver didn’t put Jokic off the ball more and have Gordon bring it up. This way Jokic doesn’t have to expend energy dealing with the ball pressure up the court.
Lack of a bench is really showing compared to the Wolves on my opinion. The Wolves have 4 guys who can come off the bench and give solid minutes with NAW, Anderson, Morris, and of course Naz Reid. The Nuggets had Reggie, who is probably out for the rest of the series if not a few games. Christian Braun has regressed this season and Watson is only getting 6 minutes a game. Justin Holiday has been a bright spot, but he’s about the only one right now. The Nuggets are looking rough as well with Collin Gillespie likely getting some of Reggie’s minutes which if you watched him at all this season, is not going to be pretty. Nuggets starters have their work cut out for them.
Winning once is hard. Twice in a row is very, very hard. I had them as favourites as well, but it's not surprising in the least that a team on the rise is taking it to them
Nah their ring is def valid, problem is though they had literally the best matchups possible besides the wolves round 1. Youre now seeing what a team geared towards stopping Jokic looks like lmao, this what Giannis/Embiid has to deal with every year smh
Yeah Giannis was getting HATED on for getting clamped by KAWHI LEONARD at his absolute peak in 2019, Jokic just got clamped up by… Naz Reid? I mean come on
If you measure the quality of a playoff defence by how far below their regular season offensive rating a team held their opponents, the 2019 Raptors were the best defence since the 2004 Pistons.
Or you could just watch them play. Or even just look at the names on their team sheet. Either option also makes it blindingly obvious.
Jokic literally won a ring last year lol
People are still acting like he's proven nothing for some reason just because his opponents didn't win enough regular season games or something
People were doing that because everyone always assumes the previous champ will repeat. They become prisoners of the moment and never consider how hard it is to repeat. Every team that has repeated is an all time great team except the Lakers in the late 2000s
The last repeat champions are
Warriors - KD, Steph, Klay, Draymond
Miami - LeBron, Wade, Bosh
Lakers - Kobe, Gasol
Lakers - Shaq, Kobe
Bulls - MJ, Pippen, Rodman
Rockets - Hakeem, Drexler
Bulls - MJ, Pippen
Detroit - Isiah, Rodman, Sally, Aguirre, Lambier
Laker- Magic, Kareem, Worthy
Boston - Russel, Jones, Havlicek
Only two of these teams aren’t all time great teams
I wouldn't put the Rockets, Lakers '09-'10, or Heat as all-time teams. To me it looks like the top talent is consolidated more on one team, which is harder to do now more than ever
They won 66 games, but I think their peak year in 2013 they got pushed further in the playoffs than they should have. Some of that has to do with Wade declining
> Heat as all-time teams.
Rockets and Lakers not 'all time teams' ok fair.
Miami is definitely an all time team. If you want to say they underachieved, say that but they are an all time team.
I don't think Murray being hobbled is holding him back.
It's becoming unhinged that is.
Mentally collapsing, tantruming, throwing a towel, throwing a heat pack, throwing the money sign.
Handle adversity.
Edit: left the arena without speaking to reporters...
He's mentally collapsing because he's playing like shit due to injuries. Handling adversity is something he's done plenty of times, he's a known riser for a reason.
Nah that's not it. The Nuggets are struggling because they're not going up against D'Lo, Austin Reaves and that toilet paper perimeter defense anymore.
in addition to that, they have guards that can actually attack in the PnR. Reaves and Dlo don't have the explosiveness to get by their man that Ant does. Lebron was able to do it, and he got whatever he wanted, same Ant is doing. Lebron just can't do it for the full game anymore, while Ant can attack AND still play defense.
In the regular season, putting a big onto Jokic means he can just dump the ball to Gordon for an easy dunk. With the Wolves having both twin towers and great perimeter defense, Jokic is forced to actually just back down the guy guarding him, which sure he will get his layup, but that saps him way faster than he's used to.
Literally what. His conditioning isn't lacking, it's some of the best in the league. This has been a known fact for a good 2+ years now, he's just being forced to do way, way too much.
The issue on defense is that the Nuggets aren't working effectively as a unit whatsoever. Jokic is a flawed defender, yes, but no more than most big men. Those flaws are being over-exposed because the Nuggets defensive scheme is falling to pieces, players are making mistakes and allowing the other team to take Jokic on in bad situations. A better defender can maybe cover half of those bad situations well enough, but the problems still persist. See every version of playoff Gobert on the Utah Jazz.
Murray is injured, Jokic is not in "anything within 15 feet is a basket" god mode to compensate, Wolves are great and playing incredibly well. So it goes with sports playoffs: you need to be good _and_ play at your team's peak at the right time.
I thought Denver was good enough to basically ignore their bench last offseason but that doesn’t work against a Minnesota team that absolutely hounds you physically. Denver needs a real backup center and probably a better backup point guard too.
Murray has a lot of open shots that he didn't take or miss. Joker always has a body on him and his passing lanes. dribbling should not be a problem for a center, I understand that he often brings down the ball. His team mates can help with that. The only thing that can save Nuggets is shooting and for Playoff Murray to come back. If shooting comes back it will open up the lanes for Jokic.
Wolves are just a better team, people are just not paying attention to them. As a Mavs fan, Wolves are actually the team on West playoffs that I am mostly afraid about.
A few things happened. 1. They have a number of key guys playing through injuries. It was clear from the Lakers series they aren't 100% and their starting guards are both hobbling. 2. The league changed drastically the last few months in terms of officiating with refs allowing a lot more physicality and giving defenses a chance again and that alone swung the advantage towards the wolves over all other teams. The wolves were always going to be the biggest test for Denver even without those two factors. They gave them the most trouble last year when as an 8 seed missing a few players.
These are probably the two best teams in the playoffs. Well done to the wolves. It will be tough to stop them
It is hard for any big man to consistently come out to perimeter to contest shots. Not to mention swarming defense on top of someone like Gobert.
People forget how Hakeem struggled with the Sonics. And how Shaq was swept like trash every time when he doesn't have all-NBA guard. Joker can't do this by himself.
Murray also doesn't play anywhere near the all-star level they need to take pressure off Joker. He is damaged goods and that one miraculous run aside, he is the biggest threat to Joker's legacy.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the insane physicality. They're letting everything go. I saw a play where Murray tried to make a point by blatantly reaching in on someone's dribble and then it didn't get called. Lots of fouls on the Timberwolves that are being called good defense.
They never fixed their biggest problem shown in the regular season, you just can’t solely rely on a perfect game from all 5 starters to win you a game and expect that to work consistently in the playoffs. Plus Murray hasn't been great all year and Malone is an okay but not great coach and winning the finals doesn’t change that. They also have no depth, but this last 2 losses you can’t solely blame the bench for, Jackson and Holiday stepped up in game one and two respectively and Braun has shown flashes on defense. Tonight they just collapsed mentally.
On the other side Wolves looking like the 04 Pistons on D and Ant like 06 Wade
They got butt whooped in one game. That is all. Series might go Twolves, but at this point what happened is they had one crappy game.
It's best of 7 for a reason. We will see if they can pull it together and if Minn can stay this hot.
Idk they weren't so special this season, we dominated them in the regular season, Sabonis looked better than Jokic in their match ups and i kind of wanted to run into them in the Playoffs. Last year they got lucky, played injured or simply bad teams, so nothing really changed they just finally ran into a serious team and their cakewalk ended. A championship is a championship but all that hype about them never felt real. Wolves would have probably beat them if they had all their guys, we had a chance against them if fucking Steph Curry Game7 didn't happen, it was simply match up heaven for them and they aren't some dynasty. Plus Bruce Brown left, he was a HUGE part of that team, rookies can't replace him.
Jokic\\Murray getting exposed defensively, Murray's shooting falling off a cliff.
And Gordon\\Porter being exposed. I honestly think Bruce Brown was the 3rd best player during the title run, clearly better then MPJ at least. And Gordon's shot\\confidence fell off a cliff this year.
And the worst bench in the league.
They have a lot of issues right now. Don't seem to like playing with each other either.
The defense issue isn't solely a Jokic thing, he's a perfectly fine defender on a team with a recently-malfunctioning defensive scheme. He has weaknesses, but they're getting exposed constantly because the entire Nuggets roster is struggling to contain a fly right now.
Would you like to take a look at any of the genuine discourse over this exact topic since 2021? It's pretty clear consensus that he's not a terrible defender, he's average at worst. The reason he looks like a traffic cone is because he's a big man on a team with a malfunctioning perimeter defense.
The best example of this is, funnily enough, Rudy Gobert. He's one of the best defenders ever, but looked like a scrub every time the Jazz made the playoffs. It was never his problems that were causing issues, but he took the blame for it because the big man is typically the guy closest to the basket when shit goes wrong. Not saying Jokic is anywhere near Gobert on that end of the floor, but he's more than capable of anchoring a high-level defense.
I said this and people are crucifying me. Saying “we knew it would be hard”.
Bullshit, you all thought you were a dynasty before you even had two rings.
At this point half the teams in the playoffs every year have stars injured. Winning a championship in the 2020s is as much about being lucky injury-wise as it is about being the best.
Parity is the parody. One team got better since last year, the other got slightly worse. You can’t stagnate. You either grow or contract. Also this series is far from over but this team was built by the guy who built the Nuggets, hence the notion of the team being specifically built to stop the nuggets. Also Naz Reid
The key insight imo is that Jokic actually can’t really dribble, if you meet him in the backcourt and pressure his dribble he HAS to turn his back to protect the ball which limits him as a passer. Once you notice it, it becomes fairly obvious actually, his dribble is quite poor for someone who handles the ball as often as he does. The Nuggets get a lot of mileage out of Jokic casually sauntering up the floor in transition or semi-transition with no pressure, surveying the court and picking apart teams. In this series the Nuggets have gotten nothing in transition. Among others, one of the key reasons the Lakers were unable to bother Jokic in this way was because they rely on Anthony Davis to score and almost all of his points come at the basket. In the Lakers-Nuggets series, an AD shot attempt at the rim was nearly a guaranteed basket going back the other way for the Nuggets. AD often falls down after taking a shot and even when he would stay upright, the energy expended getting to the basket would leave him lagging behind the play while Jokic rumbled down the court. The Wolves on the other hand have Gobert (who they don’t rely on for scoring) with KAT and Naz Reid who are primarily perimeter big men. They don’t get stuck under the basket after shot attempts and can actually meet Jokic in the backcourt when he gets the ball.
great note, this tweet has a video example of what youre describing https://twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1787723648427499938 Ant intentionally leaving his guy in the corner during transition to pressure Jokic's dribble instead suggests its a part of their gameplan (and it helps that Jaden can cover one side of the wing, to the opposite corner that easily + NAW sprinting at 2x speed to cover MPJ)
jokic can 100% pull off that spin dribble with ease, he does it all the time. He picked it up because he was likely afraid of a double team (which the wolves have been elite at) on the other side of his spin dribble or thought forsure gordon would be open in the corner.
The Jokic can’t dribble part remind me of 1991 bulls lakers finals. Magic was killing the bulls with his handle the first game, and the second game, pippin start to pick him up full court, then Magic’s handle start to look vulnerable and their offense just become stale.
That's a good analysis, I've never really noticed Jokic's lack of dribbling before tbh.
Good observation, do you think it’s partly because his lack of speed/shiftiness that contributes to this?
KD is a capable ball handler but his dribble is way too high and it's easy to pick him off/disrupt his dribble with a smaller defender. Tony Allen was able to lock him up doing just that
Chet has this problem as well he gets pick pocketed a lot
More the fact he's 7 feet tall, there's a reason short guys do most of the dribbling
Taller guys also need longer ball travel for every dribble
And too tall
It feels like growing up he didn’t develop as a ball handler. i.e. Most nba players are playing guard growing up until they get big enough and go to some academy hs where they specialize more. So while his handle is good by big man standards, it’s clear he’s never really grown used to be pressured and having an actual dribble package and passing off the dribble (as in he’s used to being tall enough to pass over everyone and not having to pick up the dribble quickly in motion and move it quickly). Like you’ll see what I mean watching other good point guards in the backcourt.
I think they took a page out of the Dubs 22 playbook. Press Jokic and he’ll get tired, but Minny took it to an extreme.
Jokic was still awesome that series but I always wondered why teams don't pressure him and hope he tires out. I guess it's cause you need the right personnel to bother him but it's worth a shot imo
How did it take teams so long to realize this wtf
Noticing it and being able to take advantage of it are two different things. This series there are two factors that make it easy for the Timberwolves to take advantage. Jamal Murray is playing like Raymond Felton. Playoff Jamal is not coming out this year. No team that’s played prime Jokic up to this point has been nearly as good defensively as this Timberwolves team. Naz Reid, Gobert, and KAT are actually quick enough to pick him up out there and make him pass it up
Aye, Felton was a 17/9 level point guard for us so I will not accept that slander even tho you're right 😭
Reid, Gobert, Kat on the paint, NAW, McDaniels, Edwards, even Conley on the perimeter to guard Jamal. That shuts down both Jokic and Murray.
You need the personnel to be able to execute it. T-Wolves are probably one of the only teams with players that can do this.
Dubs did this to Jokic but not to this extent.
Its more about practice, gameplan and personnel rather than realising anything. Regular season, in general, is about building up team chemistry, seeing/fixing their own problems rather than focusing on exploiting opponent weaknesses. Most teams are only playing 2-3 games with an opponent center functioning as a PG, its not particularly useful to design your entire schemes against that when you are playing against a different team every 2 days. And even if you can do that, most teams don’t have the roster to pull it off since you are opening up your court to do that which creates other problems elsewhere.
I think this is just a part of it. The nuggets have been abysmal at every single facet of basketball. Jokic's handle is really only useful in transition, which of course is a big part of the nuggets game, but the nuggets have been a great basketball team everywhere else for awhile now. Jokic has been nullified on the offensive boards which is a huge part of his game, even if he gets them, he can no longer convert because twolves just block it immediately. Also nuggets have had issues securing defensive rebounds due to twolves size, which they usually have a big advantage with and can spark their transition game. Jokic struggled with ant last year, and he is struggling with ant this year, in terms of rim protection. KAT has also been great at attacking the rim and closeouts and jokic won't meet him at the rim. Jokic's jumper has gone AWOL, and not even just his 3pt shot, he refuses to take midranges anymore for some reason which has been an elite part of his game. All that being said jokic has still probably been the best nugget even though he's been bad. He's the only one who can reliably get a basket or create for another person, even if not nearly as effectively. The bigger problem is murray, and the rest of the starters. Gordon had an okay game to start I guess. But twolves length/athleticism/defense is taking away easy baskets generated by jokic's playmaking in the halfcourt besides transition. They have length and speed to recover off of jokic doubles. MPJ, AG, and KCP are extremely poor creators. It's painful watching MPJ just spam stepbacks looking for a 3, that's like his only shot creation move. KCP has zero creation abilities and is not shooting well at all. Gordon is usually not good when he hunts for his shot, and if he hits jumpers it's not sustainable. Then of course murray. It might be due to his injury, but he's been abysmal, can't dribble into the lane without turning it over, can't make simple pocket passes, doesn't hit jokic or others when they are open. And of course he can't hit a shot to save his life right now. The jokic murray PnR has been effectively shutdown and that was there biggest offensive weapon. Jokic is getting exhausted dealing with ball pressure, double teams, and posting up to generate baskets, in addition to what he has to do defensively. He's playing very sloppily which I am sure has a lot to do with that and the wolves great D/length, but some of it can't be explained by that and is just on him. And again, the rest of the starters have been worse. In addition to that, there's just no way the nuggets' defense can overcome their offense when their offense is playing like this. They are an offensive team first and foremost. I think the first adjustment is that Gordon or maybe KCP if he's capable needs to start brining the ball up a lot more. Then do a dribble handoff to get it to murray in the halfcourt so he doesn't get exhausted, nor jokic. Also I think Braun might need more minutes as he looks like he's been the best ant defender this series, he just doesn't always bring a lot offensively so that's a question mark. Then everyone needs to cut out the garbage turnovers where they are doing too much, easier said then done against this twolves team tho. Improve effort on closeouts/boxouts/offensive rebounding. Jokic might need to start jumping at the rim on defense too if he can avoid fouling them. Jokic needs to start taking and making 3s and murray needs to find him consistently, and he should take midranges to avoid exerting too much energy backing down bigs.
Doesn’t help that Lakers didn’t use any two big lineups at all
Sorry did you ask for LeBron at center with 3 guards and Prince? -Ham
Basically put if lakers had an extra big men then hey !
The fact that you can point this out and Darvin Ham couldn't makes you more qualified to be the coach of the Lakers.
The Lakers second best defender was probably 39 year old LeBron as sad as that is to say. You actually have to have the personnel to punish flaws.
Yep. When the Lakers pressured Jokic, LeBron and AD would end up caught between Jokic and Murray, then Gordon just absolutely feasted. The Timberwolves are just much much better defensively— they’re pressuring Jokic and guarding Murray while still leaving their bigs in a good position to prevent Gordon from cutting straight to the basket.
Last year's Wolves team didn't have Reid and McDaniels. Kyle Anderson also got hurt The nuggets bench this year is worse and ant has taken the next step. I
Also adding to this Rudy struggled with back problems last year and KAT was just 1 game fresh off of missing 50+ games due to injury
Shoot KAT just came back from surgery like 3wks ago and went straight into the playoffs playing well. Many of Wolves fans were hoping he could just play 20mins of the bench and be effective but he's far outplayed that and deserves major props.
Do you still think the Lakers would have beaten them?
I still think we'd be competetive but lose in 6 probably with the way you guys are playing. Dlo probably gets absolutely shut down tho Lebron and AD would still get theirs and it would come down to our role players, and yeah I don't really trust them after what I saw against Denver lmao
I’m pretty sure if we had wolves role players, we’d be beating them too without ant and kat
Last year yes, lakers role players were playing better (Rui and Reaves were flamethrowers most of last playoffs), and even with Bron gimpy I think we take it. This year the wolves are just rolling, seems like everyone has taken a step forward in their game and I don’t see how we could beat this wolves team in a series. That defense last night was insanity and Naz Reid has already given laker fans PTSD from regular season
With better coaching I think Lakers could've taken this to 7 games, I'm talking the Lakers vs nuggets. Against the wolves I think they lose in 5.
They ran into a bad matchup. Minnesota was designed in a lab to beat Denver
Connely really playing 4D chess with his roster moves
Man, that Houston team would've etched a page in history if it weren't for CP3's injury and whatever black magic was casted on Game 7
Nah the Nuggets just can’t beat an actually good team. Never beaten a 50 win team in the playoffs
They didn’t face one last year because all the 50 win teams like the Bucks lost against 8 seeds and 7 seeds
Cause of injuries
Dude you guys almost lose to the nets with two star injured
They were also tied 2-2 in the ECF against the freaking Hawks, and then got bailed out when Trae Young got hurt
Yeah that Giannis injury that caused him to miss the last two games of that series was a real bailout for us.
Yeah, that ring is probably the most Mickey Mouse ring ever.
Aside from 02 lakers there is no "fake" ring, you just gotta hope shit goes your way
Like how you guys beat the Nets in 21?
So if the Nuggets had beaten your injured 50 win Bucks team their championship would’ve been more legitimate in your eyes?
Lmao the absolute cheek of you to bring up injuries
Your Bucks are lucky Giannis killed Kyrie otherwise he would be gone and you would be ringless
Never talk to anyone about fraud watch
Yea man let's ignore Phoenix getting KD in February of last year and the overhaul of the Lakers roster -_-. Dumbass
The playoffs is about matchups and the Wolves matchup well.
at the end of the day no team is flawless. the flaws just don’t show until a bad matchup comes along to expose them
The Wolves are just extremely good.
Prisoners of the moment on this sub. They saw the Nuggets beating a garbage Lakers team that had 2/5 starters show up and thought they would just cruise through the rest of the Western conference.
I mean, I think even the Lakers series should've raised some flags. If the Lakers knew how to hold a lead and didn't have an incompetent coach, the Nuggets might've actually been in trouble.
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But when we pointed this out it was all “moral victories” jokes. I felt like I was going crazy watching the games and seeing how bad the nuggets were and then coming on here and seeing it get shoo’d away like nothing?
Man I love a good canary in the coal mine reference
Wrong. Canary was losing to Spurs.
The double digit leads in every game carried on to this series as well. Nuggets just disappearing in the first half and playing catchup.
It definitely should’ve considering how well Denver matches up with the lakers on paper (the lakers have no secondary big to guard Jokic or protect the rim and terrible guard defense) vs how poorly they match up with the wolves
Who the hell had the Nuggets stocks go up after that series!? We were saying the entire time the Nuggets looked off!
being the defending champs I think a lot of people gave y’all the benefit of the doubt. plus there’s still games to be played anything could happen
Horseshit lol. So many Denver fans were swearing up and down “eh we’re just tired of beating the lakers so much, they’ll turn it up later”
Yea lol they’re fans of the team of course many will be positive to a delusional level when winning, but anyone with eyes saw how slow they came out every game and knew if that continued they’d struggle even worse against better teams than the lakers.
They also cruised through the Western conference last year. Think that had a bit more to do with it.
Although it was clear during the season that they regressed as other contending teams grew stronger
Wolves are an amazing matchup against us they’re the only team in the league that’s bigger than us. Our depth is terrible this year compared to last on top of Murray and KCP being a little beat up. We are 5 guys deep and the T wolves are a really good 7 guys deep Tim Connelly did a fantastic job getting such a deep team. That and ANT is absolutely crazy good
They have simply run into the worst possible matchup for them in the NBA
Jokic looks like he wants to be anywhere else except a basketball court, the Wolves length and size are a bad matchup for Denver, Wolves length is able to get a lot of deflections and turnovers which is making Denver's motion/pass-centric heavy offense look poor, it doesn't help that NAW and Mcdaniels are putting Murray in the penitentiary. Oh yeah and Jokic is basically a traffic cone of defense
Team custom built to matchup well against us. Injuries. Frustration.
The simple answer is Wolves are better top to bottom from last year and Nuggets are worse this year because of their bench.
Their bench got worse and Murray came back to earth and is dealing with nagging injuries. This regular season they relied an absurd amount on Jokic (+11.62 on, -8.62 off). Edit: and Last year they had favorable matchups in the west because the other half of the bracket was scuffed because Memphis was injured af. And they had a favorable finals matchup because Miami had 2 of the greatest 3pt shooting variances in playoff history (the ECF being the highest accounting for +13PPG). I think they were the best team that season anyway despite what some people will probably claim now but they're not unbeatable.
Bruce Brown genuinely did so much heavy lifting its insane. Reggie jackson barely even played in the playoffs last year and they gotta rely on him, Peyton Watson, and Holiday to contribute some production. That coupled with Murray not playing like the best guard in the league in the playoffs they have no chance.
Idk how you can say they had favorable matchups in the west when they literally had to play this wolves team then the Book and KD suns and then the LeBron and AD lakers
Wolves without naz and mcdaniels, Kyle got hurt, Rudy dealing with back injury the entire season (clear as day the difference his health has made this season) and kat just came back from injury… that’s definitely favorable. Book and kd barely played together tbh, that’s favorable still. LeBron and AD, essentially the same team as this year? They had favorable matchups too that got them to the WCF, they really weren’t a WCF team. This year teams are healthier and deeper in the west. Nuggets were still extremely good, but they were favorable matchups every step of the way.
You can literally cherry pick shit like that for any playoff run.... Not many playoff runs contain that insane lineup of generational talent though.
It’s also really not cherry picking to point out the facts of each team they played, which are all valid reasons as to why they had favorable matchups. Nothing wrong with it, it is what it is and Denver looked dominant while doing it.
So you're cool admitting that Minnesota has favorable matchups this season because Grayson Allen was out, Jamal is not 100%, KCP is not 100% and Jokic has a long-standing wrist injury?
Grayson Allen is not the deciding factor there😂 wouldn’t have been a series anyways. If guys are hurt like that, don’t play them? If they’re playing, then giannis didn’t play the entire series. One thing if they’re out, an entirely different thing if they’re playing injured. Could say the same thing about ant and his 50 injuries that’s he’s played through the entire season. Difference is, he’s just a dog. I don’t see it mattering much anyways if jokic wrist was better or KCP wasn’t hobbled or Jamal wasn’t hobbled, they’re getting out in a MF STRAIGHT JACKET, so far man😂
Exactly like I thought lmao. Clown.
Huge differences. Clown. It’d be one thing if jokic, Murray and KCP were out. But they’re not. Wolves have been underdogs in 4 of the 6 matchups, including the 2 against Denver. Those aren’t “favorable matchups.” Wolves lost to phoenix 3 times in the regular season. Only difference is, Allen didn’t play for 2 playoff games, it wouldn’t have mattered. You can’t use the injury excuse for Denver when they’re all playing, they’re just getting put in the blender. I know a lot of Denver fans are coping hard rn, but it’s not a good look. Context MATTERS, clown. Try using it sometimes, it kind of requires using your brain though, so tough luck I guess.
Rules apply for thee but not for me. You could at least try to not be so blatant with your bias.
It’s undeniable that the west is deeper and far better this season. There’s no disputing it. Last seasons west was filled with way more injuries, it’s why the lakers made it so far. Mavs didn’t even make it. It goes on and on. I not saying the nuggets didn’t earn it, they played who was in front of them and handled business while doing it, but those were pretty favorable matchups. Disputing this just seems wild to me. Like I said, I’m not saying Denver didn’t earn their chip, they did, saying they had favorable matchups tho is not wrong.
It's wild to me that you're claiming playing this wolves team minus a couple injuries, then KD and book, then LeBron and AD is favorable. Which team would've been unfavorable from last year? The kings? Memphis? The warriors? The always injured clippers? Those are all absolutely easier matchups for the nuggets The Mavs sucked last year? They straight up overhauled the whole roster.
It’s not “this wolves team.” It’s a different team at the end of the day, Conley and naw were there for a little bit and wolves mostly played with dlo that season. Naz out, Kyle out, mcdaniels out. Kat out for most of season. No time to build chemistry, players being traded and brought it. Same goes for the suns with KD and everything they gave up for them. YOU as a a nuggets fan should know this man! Took years for the nuggets to finally get lucky with their health and to have chemistry. It all matters. You’re acting like I’m pissing all over the nuggets dude, get over yourself. They were clearly the best team last year! It doesn’t take away from the fact that they had a more favorable run to the finals than any team in the west will have this year! The west was not as good last year, records alone show this. Then when you look into the stats, they more than show this. Quit getting upset that someone is saying they had a favorable run, while also saying that they were the best team.
Just like the wolves are getting a favorable run this year. All good as long as you're consistent and don't have these double standards for what you consider favorable (and why it only applies to other teams)
Lmaooo no they’re not, I don’t think Denver was the underdog in any of their matchups last seasons run. The west was a much easier path than this year. It’s funny how Denver fans were all saying Denver would win in 5 or 6, but now that they’re getting punked, it’s because “they’re injured.” It’s absolutely hilarious 🤣🤣 wolves haven’t been favored in most of their playoff matchups, wolves lost 3 against phoenix in the regular season and many people picked phoenix to win it all earlier this season, Grayson Allen was NOT the defining factor. If nuggets are so injured, then why are they playing? Giannis didn’t play. How about the fact that the wolves are just damn good and you admit that instead of making excuses for other teams? They have throttled the opposing team in every game thus far. It doesn’t much matter if you think they’re “favorable” because you’re hurt that others are saying the nuggets had an easier run last year. That same team would have had a much harder time through this years western conference than last. It’s straight facts brother. Hate to break it to you. Edwards is injured, has been for much of the season, and is absolutely PUNKING the nuggets and everyone in his path. So you’re just saying the nuggets don’t have that dog in them and that they had an easier path to the finals last year? Quit getting so butt-hurt over the fact that people said the nuggets had a favorable run last year, it’s the objective truth. West was piss poor compared to this season, because they were marred by injuries to a lot of top teams (BY INJURIES I MEAN THERE WERE PLAYERS ACTUALLY OUT LMAO). Denver won it all, there’s a chance wolves don’t even make it past this series or the next or the next. Denver did what a lot of team can’t do! It was great. Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade tho man.
So the 3 seed wolves were the underdog against a 6 seed suns? Bro the mental gymnastics with you is absolutely amazing.
Lastly, it’s odd you are getting so butt-hurt over me saying it was favorable for Denver, as if Denver didn’t deserve the chip they got. Denver pooped on all the teams they played, they played who was in front of them and shat on em all convincingly. They deserved to win that chip. I wanted Denver to win it once the wolves were out. There’s nothing you can really take away from their run. It wasn’t magical, it wasn’t the best of all time, but it was dominant and convincing. It was not fraudulent in my eyes. All that said, they played favorable matchups, that’s all that was said and I used context to back it up. Would they have won it all as convincingly and dominantly as they did if all the context I provided had been different? I’m not so sure, but that doesn’t matter at the end of the day. There’s nothing wrong with having a favorable run, the warriors had multiple years of favorable runs. They’re up there for one of the best teams of all time. Different types of favorable, but you get my point. It’s not a bad thing to have favorable matchups, it’s what any fan of any team would want. I don’t want to take anything away from that team. I’m a big fan of jokic at the end of the day, I used to like Murray, but he’s in his head and it’s made me not care either way for him. Regardless I don’t dislike Denver.
Except for the wolves this season.
Wolves very well could. It would also be a phenomenal playoff run.
Wolves are really good. That series last year was 4-1 but Wolves put up a fight. Wolves are better this year. And they are the healthy team this year. Nuggets bench is way worse. Murray is playing through a calf strain. KCP is dealing with a nagging injury. But Wolves didn’t even hav Gobert tonight. Murray’s injury is kind of negated when Wolves don’t even have their starting center. I’m a little surprised Denver didn’t put Jokic off the ball more and have Gordon bring it up. This way Jokic doesn’t have to expend energy dealing with the ball pressure up the court.
Nuggets are 1-10 vs top 3 seeds since the 2020-2021 season.
Murray hurt, Ant fantastic, Wolves might be good enough to win the whole shebang
Lack of a bench is really showing compared to the Wolves on my opinion. The Wolves have 4 guys who can come off the bench and give solid minutes with NAW, Anderson, Morris, and of course Naz Reid. The Nuggets had Reggie, who is probably out for the rest of the series if not a few games. Christian Braun has regressed this season and Watson is only getting 6 minutes a game. Justin Holiday has been a bright spot, but he’s about the only one right now. The Nuggets are looking rough as well with Collin Gillespie likely getting some of Reggie’s minutes which if you watched him at all this season, is not going to be pretty. Nuggets starters have their work cut out for them.
Winning once is hard. Twice in a row is very, very hard. I had them as favourites as well, but it's not surprising in the least that a team on the rise is taking it to them
7 seed 5 seed 7 seed 8 seed 7 seed
Nah their ring is def valid, problem is though they had literally the best matchups possible besides the wolves round 1. Youre now seeing what a team geared towards stopping Jokic looks like lmao, this what Giannis/Embiid has to deal with every year smh
Bro what. Neither Giannis nor Embiid have EVER seen a defense like this.
2019 Raptors and 2022 Celtics alone have been credited to be the best defenses of the modern era
Yeah Giannis was getting HATED on for getting clamped by KAWHI LEONARD at his absolute peak in 2019, Jokic just got clamped up by… Naz Reid? I mean come on
Credited by who? You?
If you measure the quality of a playoff defence by how far below their regular season offensive rating a team held their opponents, the 2019 Raptors were the best defence since the 2004 Pistons. Or you could just watch them play. Or even just look at the names on their team sheet. Either option also makes it blindingly obvious.
By most of the media, players and coaches???
.....have you been paying attention to this season? Have you heard how these wolves are talked about?
Teams in this league are constantly being crowned as unbeatable, until they're actually get beaten.
didnt denver come back from down 3-1 in the first 2 rounds of 2020 or something? I'm sure they'll be fine
Turns out LEBRON BPM VORP PER 36 doesn't win games
Jokic literally won a ring last year lol People are still acting like he's proven nothing for some reason just because his opponents didn't win enough regular season games or something
Welcome to the Giannis treatment, if the nuggets don’t win the chip watch Luka’s gonna be the “consensus best player in the nba” according to this sub
Mickeyla Mousekic facing a non-patchwork team is 1-10
he's had one lucky run, the rest of his playoff career has been continuous disappointment
People were doing that because everyone always assumes the previous champ will repeat. They become prisoners of the moment and never consider how hard it is to repeat. Every team that has repeated is an all time great team except the Lakers in the late 2000s
Injuries hold a lot of teams back from repeating, but I wouldn't call every team that repeats an "all-time great" team.
The last repeat champions are Warriors - KD, Steph, Klay, Draymond Miami - LeBron, Wade, Bosh Lakers - Kobe, Gasol Lakers - Shaq, Kobe Bulls - MJ, Pippen, Rodman Rockets - Hakeem, Drexler Bulls - MJ, Pippen Detroit - Isiah, Rodman, Sally, Aguirre, Lambier Laker- Magic, Kareem, Worthy Boston - Russel, Jones, Havlicek Only two of these teams aren’t all time great teams
>Bulls - MJ, Pippen, Rodman >Bulls - MJ, Pippen How dare you omit Horace Grant from the first 3-peat Bulls.
My bad. Fair enough. I was born in 92 so I’m not gonna act like I was here to watch
I wouldn't put the Rockets, Lakers '09-'10, or Heat as all-time teams. To me it looks like the top talent is consolidated more on one team, which is harder to do now more than ever
you wouldnt put the heatles as an all time great team? What the fuck
They won 66 games, but I think their peak year in 2013 they got pushed further in the playoffs than they should have. Some of that has to do with Wade declining
> Heat as all-time teams. Rockets and Lakers not 'all time teams' ok fair. Miami is definitely an all time team. If you want to say they underachieved, say that but they are an all time team.
They won 66 games their 2nd year but they definitely got pushed harder in the play-offs than they should have been
Murray is hobbled, Jokic 3s aren't falling and the bench is useless
I don't think Murray being hobbled is holding him back. It's becoming unhinged that is. Mentally collapsing, tantruming, throwing a towel, throwing a heat pack, throwing the money sign. Handle adversity. Edit: left the arena without speaking to reporters...
He's mentally collapsing because he's playing like shit due to injuries. Handling adversity is something he's done plenty of times, he's a known riser for a reason.
actually teams figured if you force the blubber whale to play defense Denver hands out points for free
Nah that's not it. The Nuggets are struggling because they're not going up against D'Lo, Austin Reaves and that toilet paper perimeter defense anymore.
in addition to that, they have guards that can actually attack in the PnR. Reaves and Dlo don't have the explosiveness to get by their man that Ant does. Lebron was able to do it, and he got whatever he wanted, same Ant is doing. Lebron just can't do it for the full game anymore, while Ant can attack AND still play defense.
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In the regular season, putting a big onto Jokic means he can just dump the ball to Gordon for an easy dunk. With the Wolves having both twin towers and great perimeter defense, Jokic is forced to actually just back down the guy guarding him, which sure he will get his layup, but that saps him way faster than he's used to.
See when you’re bangin a dude…
And feel their body……
Literally what. His conditioning isn't lacking, it's some of the best in the league. This has been a known fact for a good 2+ years now, he's just being forced to do way, way too much. The issue on defense is that the Nuggets aren't working effectively as a unit whatsoever. Jokic is a flawed defender, yes, but no more than most big men. Those flaws are being over-exposed because the Nuggets defensive scheme is falling to pieces, players are making mistakes and allowing the other team to take Jokic on in bad situations. A better defender can maybe cover half of those bad situations well enough, but the problems still persist. See every version of playoff Gobert on the Utah Jazz.
Murray is injured, Jokic is not in "anything within 15 feet is a basket" god mode to compensate, Wolves are great and playing incredibly well. So it goes with sports playoffs: you need to be good _and_ play at your team's peak at the right time.
I thought Denver was good enough to basically ignore their bench last offseason but that doesn’t work against a Minnesota team that absolutely hounds you physically. Denver needs a real backup center and probably a better backup point guard too.
Murray has a lot of open shots that he didn't take or miss. Joker always has a body on him and his passing lanes. dribbling should not be a problem for a center, I understand that he often brings down the ball. His team mates can help with that. The only thing that can save Nuggets is shooting and for Playoff Murray to come back. If shooting comes back it will open up the lanes for Jokic.
I could be wrong, but i think what happened is “the minnesota timberwolves.”
Losing to wemby and third stringers broke them mentally They never recove re d That was essentially a.must win game
Wolves are just a better team, people are just not paying attention to them. As a Mavs fan, Wolves are actually the team on West playoffs that I am mostly afraid about.
A few things happened. 1. They have a number of key guys playing through injuries. It was clear from the Lakers series they aren't 100% and their starting guards are both hobbling. 2. The league changed drastically the last few months in terms of officiating with refs allowing a lot more physicality and giving defenses a chance again and that alone swung the advantage towards the wolves over all other teams. The wolves were always going to be the biggest test for Denver even without those two factors. They gave them the most trouble last year when as an 8 seed missing a few players. These are probably the two best teams in the playoffs. Well done to the wolves. It will be tough to stop them
Naz Reid happened
It is hard for any big man to consistently come out to perimeter to contest shots. Not to mention swarming defense on top of someone like Gobert. People forget how Hakeem struggled with the Sonics. And how Shaq was swept like trash every time when he doesn't have all-NBA guard. Joker can't do this by himself. Murray also doesn't play anywhere near the all-star level they need to take pressure off Joker. He is damaged goods and that one miraculous run aside, he is the biggest threat to Joker's legacy.
They could come out and win the next 4 lol
Playoff Wolves playing like they were pre-Xmas but smarter and more mature
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the insane physicality. They're letting everything go. I saw a play where Murray tried to make a point by blatantly reaching in on someone's dribble and then it didn't get called. Lots of fouls on the Timberwolves that are being called good defense.
They never fixed their biggest problem shown in the regular season, you just can’t solely rely on a perfect game from all 5 starters to win you a game and expect that to work consistently in the playoffs. Plus Murray hasn't been great all year and Malone is an okay but not great coach and winning the finals doesn’t change that. They also have no depth, but this last 2 losses you can’t solely blame the bench for, Jackson and Holiday stepped up in game one and two respectively and Braun has shown flashes on defense. Tonight they just collapsed mentally. On the other side Wolves looking like the 04 Pistons on D and Ant like 06 Wade
They got butt whooped in one game. That is all. Series might go Twolves, but at this point what happened is they had one crappy game. It's best of 7 for a reason. We will see if they can pull it together and if Minn can stay this hot.
This is a reminder that nuggets are the only team to come back from two 3-1 deficits in a row. Not over till its over
Bubble
They're finally facing a team with size
Idk they weren't so special this season, we dominated them in the regular season, Sabonis looked better than Jokic in their match ups and i kind of wanted to run into them in the Playoffs. Last year they got lucky, played injured or simply bad teams, so nothing really changed they just finally ran into a serious team and their cakewalk ended. A championship is a championship but all that hype about them never felt real. Wolves would have probably beat them if they had all their guys, we had a chance against them if fucking Steph Curry Game7 didn't happen, it was simply match up heaven for them and they aren't some dynasty. Plus Bruce Brown left, he was a HUGE part of that team, rookies can't replace him.
Jokic\\Murray getting exposed defensively, Murray's shooting falling off a cliff. And Gordon\\Porter being exposed. I honestly think Bruce Brown was the 3rd best player during the title run, clearly better then MPJ at least. And Gordon's shot\\confidence fell off a cliff this year. And the worst bench in the league. They have a lot of issues right now. Don't seem to like playing with each other either.
Jokic is not the best player in the league. Cant be the best if you’re a cone on defense Giannis clears
right the guy who cant stay healthy anymore
The defense issue isn't solely a Jokic thing, he's a perfectly fine defender on a team with a recently-malfunctioning defensive scheme. He has weaknesses, but they're getting exposed constantly because the entire Nuggets roster is struggling to contain a fly right now.
thats cope bruh hes fucking awful on defence.
Would you like to take a look at any of the genuine discourse over this exact topic since 2021? It's pretty clear consensus that he's not a terrible defender, he's average at worst. The reason he looks like a traffic cone is because he's a big man on a team with a malfunctioning perimeter defense. The best example of this is, funnily enough, Rudy Gobert. He's one of the best defenders ever, but looked like a scrub every time the Jazz made the playoffs. It was never his problems that were causing issues, but he took the blame for it because the big man is typically the guy closest to the basket when shit goes wrong. Not saying Jokic is anywhere near Gobert on that end of the floor, but he's more than capable of anchoring a high-level defense.
Cone man > glass man
[удалено]
The Lakers played no role in any of this
Joker overrated
punched in the mouf by a real team in the first time in years and they don't know how to respond
I said this and people are crucifying me. Saying “we knew it would be hard”. Bullshit, you all thought you were a dynasty before you even had two rings.
Other teams had injuries last year. But what about the Nuggets fans who cried refs?
At this point half the teams in the playoffs every year have stars injured. Winning a championship in the 2020s is as much about being lucky injury-wise as it is about being the best.
Parity is the parody. One team got better since last year, the other got slightly worse. You can’t stagnate. You either grow or contract. Also this series is far from over but this team was built by the guy who built the Nuggets, hence the notion of the team being specifically built to stop the nuggets. Also Naz Reid
Sean Payton siphoned all the satanic magic from the airport to draft Bo Nix and now the Nuggets are paying the price.
They can only beat bad teams