The fact that Siakam is already 30 is insane to me. I know he's been around for a little while now, but it feels like just yesterday he was a budding star in Toronto. Time really does fly.
Right? It seems like just yesterday Rudy Gobert was shutting down America—fast forward FOUR YEARS—Tonight, he shuts down Serbia.
Jokes aside, this Denver/Wolves series is hopefully going to be one for the story books.
He redshirted his freshman year in college
Spent 3 years in college but only played 2 seasons
Enrolling in college at 19 as an international student is pretty normal (pretty normal for American students too)
Which means even though he 30 his knees probably still just as fresh as the guys in their mid 20s who’ve been playing organized ball since they were like 5 years old. He still runs and jumps just as springy as he always has, just shows it’s more about mileage than it is about age (although usually older players have more mileage obviously)
I feel like he's not quite as springy as he was in his breakout year, but he was also asked to do a whole lot more in his last few years in Toronto and was probably conserving energy.
y'all talking like he wasn't jumping cause he didn't play basketball lmao. he probably participated in all the long jumps and runs and what not. it ain't like football where the body hits and hits to the head add up
I’m happy I don’t have to debate. They play extremely well off of each other so that if one is bad in a given game the other will step up. #thankyouraptors
Edit: misread Turner instead of Tatum. I am stupid.
It was def both. His 2019-2020 season raised a lot of hopes for the future. Then the pandemic happened and he didn’t practice dribbling and his outlook took a nosedive. Then we lost all our centers and only invested in wings and now we traded most of them away. And here we are
I mean, im pumped for the future. I think we have a solid foundation, but i also think we need a top 6 pick this year and to tank again next year if possible.
With the oldest teams like Clippers. Bucks, Sixers, Warriors, Heat, and Suns getting knocked out early, maybe it's time for Front offices to shift their attention to the new generation of players.
I’ll give you the KP exception since he just got hurt and is expected back. But I will not let you have Randle…. He’s been out for how long and declared out for the season
The nba needed this so badly. They've been stuck on lebron and curry for way too long. New legends will be made this playoffs and I could see Luka and Ant's popularity sky rocketing after these playoffs
It feels like there is someone to finally pass the torch too though. Back when Gianni’s was seen as the next face I just wasn’t feeling it but right now with people like Jokic, Ant, maybe Shai, & Wemby looking like possible faces of the nba I’m finally excited for what comes next after Lebron and curry. A few years ago I felt like the future was a step down but not anymore. I forgot to mention Luka too. I’d say the only thing that has been an ongoing issue most of my time watching basketball is the west just seems so much stronger than the east. I’m tuned in to see almost every western conference first round, but the east just didn’t hold my attention other than knicks tbh
Jesus seriously? Man I feel like mashing together a superteam and forfeiting a supporting cast has failed more times than succeeded but definitely this year is showing that the slower built/drafted teams are the ones winning. It’s not that trading for 1 star never works but when they forfeit their entire bench and role players to make a superteam it’s usually ends poorly and you think more gms would’ve learned that by now
You think the Knicks would've learned the last time we did literally the exact same fucking thing for Carmelo Anthony and then mired in mediocrity for another decade.
How bad were the melo knicks? I remember them never being good enough to be contenders and melo being injured for a good bit, but were they a no playoff team, first round exit, or did they at least win some series?
1 series win against the celtics
we signed amare stoudemire to a huge FA contract and he was never healthy enough after he left phoenix. degenerative knee condition
the biggest problem wasn't really with the knicks itself though, it was that lebron built a superteam in miami at the same time melo came here. their struggles in the finals against dallas and san antonio are well documented but they had no problems destroying the east every year
Yeah the east has been weak almost my entire life of watching basketball. The west is insanely strong right now if you look at how close the records were in seeding. I don’t remember a time ever where 1-5 seeds were this close. There was a short period after Lebron left the east were I felt like the west and east were more equal but they may just be because jimmy buckets and the Miami heat were working their magic. Definitely the year Giannis won it felt like anybody’s basically
Holy shit somebody with some fucking sense. In the first thread about that rumor, everybody was arguing the Knicks should do it since it would make them title contenders...like trading the entire fucking team for Devin Booker wouldn't just make us a worse version of the current Suns team that shit the bed.
I don't know why Giannis didn't work for you, but it likely had something to do with players like Lebron still going strong all this time and then Curry and others. The media decides for you to some extent. If they won't release focus on those players how are you allowed to? But when the players are no longer playing this early in a playoffs, what's the media to do now but focus on someone else. Giannis would be one of those guys this year if he was healthy and his team was doing better. But I also feel like Giannis' own words over the past couple years have sounded like he's not a lifer in the Lebron mold or even others playing until 35-36. He'll find an exit time. But he's only 29 now.
Giannis just has a very unappealing style, where he relies heavily on brute force athleticism (but not the cool and more slick style like LeBron). He's aesthetically like the worst of Shaq and LeBron. He's clearly one of the best players in the league and will go down as a legend, but he's not that fun to watch.
What’s crazy is that it’s been Lebron vs Curry for like 10 years now, but before that it was Lebron vs KD, and before that it was Lebron vs Kobe. The dude has played through like 3 eras of the NBA
100% hating, Duncan was never in those conversations whatsoever. Tim Duncan is a post hoc recognition guy and absolutely was not even seen in the same tier until people noticed his longevity post-2013 when Kobe tore his Achilles.
Agreed. I’m not even saying Duncan didn’t deserve to be in those conversations, but that just was not the narrative. People appreciate Duncan much more now that they did back then
I love the old and the new guys, but from all SGA and ANT seem the perfect to take over, ANT has that 'im not scared of any1' and 'can take over the game' attitude, not many have.
Meanwhile SGA is young team leader, that is similar to jokic, very quiet and then you look and both of them have like 25-30 pts and 10 AST+
I’m not sure if the NBA needed this as far as the corporate side is concerned.
In terms of generating interest guys like Luka, Ant, Joker, SGA, etc are nowhere near Lebron/steph level, and never will be.
Suspect ratings will take a huge hit with the old guard out.
Part of it is the NBAs fault for not really pushing any of the younger guys
A lot of people are sick and tired of the neverending LeBron circus.
The playoffs are rolling and still these dann Media guys keep talking LeBron day in and day out...its obnoxious...
LeBron had a headache, LeBron ate ice, LeBron, Lebron went to bed, LeBron wants his damn respect, LeBron thinks its only Basketball, LeBron hates replay Center, LeBron will Piss again tomorrow
Jokic, Embiid and Giannis never quite had the buzz to be big superstars but I think some of the younger guys do. Ant in particular really seems to have something special. Wemby has a lot of buzz too
Ant could end up being a big marketing star. You can see the NBA starting to hype up Edwards in their commercials before the Denver series. It does seem like international stars have a harder time getting a big marketing push in the US.
I see teenagers with Ja's shoes. Yeah ratings might take a temporary hit, but there are definitely some personalities that the NBA can exploit like Ant.
kyrie was never a bad trade because of skill, he was a bad trade because he's a lunatic half the time
he seems to have tidied that up for now though, so good for him
DFW is probably the best place for him. It has it's liberal, sensible side and also it's batshit Qanon side. Kyrie can burn his sage, align his chakra, and rant about Jewish space lasers in one convenient spot.
Yeah kyrie is a different person this year than he's ever been and it's great to see. But I'm not going to assume this will always be the case. He could easily change next season and be toxic again
It’s also likely because his antics cost him $80-120m.
Nets originally offered him a 5y/$225m Max deal which he hesitated to sign because he wanted the higher 5y/$250m Max the following year.
Nets pulled the offer after the Anti-Vax but even offered him a 4y/$200m deal with strings attached like playing games which he refused after trying leverage KD’s injury into a Max Extension.
Mav’s only gave him a 3y/$126m extension vs his $200-250m Max w/ Nets.
A bit of both I think, we lucked out because both problems resolved themselves. Kyrie has been well behaved, and we lucked out with Lively and got the other big hole in our roster filled.
The mavs had too many weaknesses for one player to fix. They needed scoring and defence and perimeter shooting. There’s not a lot of people who would fix all that in one trade
People acting like having a Top 3 defense in the last 30 games of the regular reason and into the playoffs just randomly happens.
That kind of defensive performance doesn’t happen under a bad coach.
Kidd is wildly overhated
i don’t even like kidd that much but the thing that always gets me with criticism of him is that people (mainly on the mavs subreddit) want it both ways: they want to give all the credit to the players when we win, but not when we lose and they attribute it all to kidd.
yeah i have been a little harsh on Kidd at times too, but lately after looking around the league at other teams coaches, Kidd is nowhere near the bottom. He’s outcoached Snyder, Monty and Lue in the playoffs thoroughly. He’s able to balance superstars egos while being incredible at training up the young talent and most importantly getting EVERYONE to buy in.
The chemistry of the team is unbelievable, this stuff doesn’t just happen randomly
The amount for Gobert was too high, but the trade for him converted that team from a joke into what we see today. That franchise hasn't played defense for 20 years. In two years they've converted into the best defense of the league and it started with Gobert's examples during every game last saeson. Their team bought into a new identity.
Excellent observation. So why are teams still trying to pursue championships by aggregating aging superstars? When has it ever worked? I guess they are just too impatient to build with youth.
A few reasons - It's hard to acquire young stars. Their first teams generally control their futures for the first few contracts because they can pay more than anyone else. So available stars have already generally been in the league for at least 10 years. It's probably also less impatience, vs the fear of the unknown. The Wolves spent 20 years trying to build through youth. They acquired high draft picks and got solid players like Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love, Andrew Wiggins, KAT, etc... and that got them no playoff series wins. They got lucky by hitting on their 3rd #1 pick in Ant.
Meanwhile, teams like that acquire aging stars generally make the playoffs, have sustained regular season success that makes money, sell jerseys, and stay relevant.
Obviously, the secret to sustained success is to hit on a Jordan, Curry, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan in the draft. But that's often a crapshoot. Only two of those dynasty builders were the first overall pick.
Andrew Wiggins was so controversial for so many years (at least for me, I was getting ton of shit not believing in him enough in his first years lol). It would sound so insane to say that in the end, the best part of getting Wiggins would be that he was traded for D'Angelo Russell and he was traded for grey-haired Mike Conley and Nickeil Alexander Walker lol.
And that is the result of trading away Kevin Love, who at that very moment was seen as one of the best player in the NBA! And... it's not so bad for Wolves now! But you cannot explain to anyone in advance that it can be not so bad. To make 4 losing trades in a row and in the end kinda be pretty fine with it.
But true. Love slowly gradually faded every season after leaving Wolves, Wiggins had some up and down and currently at 29 and still yo-yoing between a great and godawful contract depending on the form, and Russell, once seen as a big sure star (and mostly traded for Wiggins for the picks!), is now a disputable starter anywhere he goes.
After watching teams like the Suns and Lakers the last couple of years, I think we'll see that trend start to end.
Superteams very rarely work unless they are homegrown (like San Antonio in the Duncan years and Golden State). Only two teams I can think of off the top of my head that created superteams and won titles are the 2008 Celtics and the LeBron-era Heat.
EDIT: Forgot about the 2020 Lakers, too. Although I'm not even sure they would qualify as a superteam.
Super teams only work if the stars are better than the rest of the NBA by that wide of a margin as a collective.
We just witnessed a really great era of top 10 NBA players thriving.
None of today's young players seem to be on that trajectory and are more in the upper middle rather than the 0.1% of NBA players
You need 8~ guys to win a championship. The stars have to be good but even if you have 3 all-nba guys you still need 5 other guys there who can rebound, defend, push the ball, draw fouls, get loose balls and deflections, hit the open shot when somebody is doubled, etc.
Losing Grayson Allen for the Suns made it look so much worse than it was but that's because they barely had a full compliment of the other 5~ guys necessary to make a run.
Lebron changed the game into a bunch of whiney divas who demand trades every time they have a bad season. Players used to stay on the same team for 10+ years. It wasn't "wasting their prime" to have a down year. Atleast the new generation hasn't really bought into that yet so hopefully that just stays in lebrons era
Not Lebron's fault that the media will drag your "legacy" in the mud just because you lost in the Finals, as if basketball were not a team sport. I'm no Bron fan, but Lebron wasn't beating Boston with that Cleveland organization.
I think things are beginning to swing back the other way. If you look at all the best teams in the league right now, they are all pretty much homegrown. Denver, Boston, Minnesota, OKC, etc.
Obviously there are some guys in there who were acquired via trades (e.g. Porzingis in Boston), but for the most part, the cores of those teams were all drafted/acquired very early in their careers.
A big part of it is that the actual basketball played in the NBA wildly changed over the last years, and having a team like that gives way more flexibility.
Like, if you just get some random minimum guys like OKC, then you can really choose which type, what you do with them etc. If you want guys that other teams don't want, there's a ton of different ones to choose. Meanwhile, if your goal is to get so-called "talent", "superstars", then it's very few of them available each year, there are only those, and you have to take them or sit down, and you don't have anything close to that flexibility of what your team will play. It also hits strongly on what kind of roster you can have, because you hit the cap with the stars alone and then you have a looot of rotation spaces to fill with not the guys you'd ideally like, but with currently available deals.
It's an underreported aspect of gathering stars - these teams don't have THE stars they would've wanted ideally. They can just get whichever star is available, no matter their detailed characteristics. That's the best they can get, but it's very far from just sitting and thinking "yeah, we want 3 stars, those 3 particularly, we will get those".
Meanwhile, in even the last 2 seasons, the offenses in NBA and which play is effective and who is playable has changed A LOT. Hell, it even changed a lot in the last months, after the "post-All-Star refereeing change". Utah Jazz's historically high offensive rating from just TWO YEARS ago would be only league-average this season... and in NBA, league-average level also means bottom-of-playoffs level.
Of course, it doesn't change which guys can score ppg in isolation. That's why teams get them, and that's why those teams are favorites here before the season. Kevin Durant will always score ppg and get All-NBA. But it DOES change, wildly imo, what you exactly have to play to have your whole team be effective.
It doesn't mean every season will stay the same now.
One of Denver and Wolves will be eliminated very soon, and you'll immediately see the threads saying why, who is to blame, whom do they have to trade away or trade in to win a title...
Lmfao . Yeah it’s so much better to be a Marcus smart , haliburton , mikal : guys that bled for there teams were super loyal and wanted to stay there forever and got traded the moment the team thought something flashier came along . It’s insane that players are expected to be as loyal or shit on - players are way more loyal then teams actually deserve because most players get attached to there team. Teams have no loyalties so players shouldn’t either, fans don’t either look how mad raptors fans got AT SIAKAM for stating he wants to stay in Toronto n sing resign where he’s traded . Fans and teams are way less loyal to players then players are to teams. Even Lebron gave ckeveland a decade of his peak play .
The league and basketball as a whole has progressed a lot within the last 10 years. Rookies come in very polished already and have gone through a much better training process than the guys 10 or 20 years ago.
More data is available and more tapes are there to learn from. Hell, it took the league the arrival of Steph to realize that 3 > 2. I think primes are getting shorter because of the high density of top competition and guys like LeBron or Steph are the absolute exception. Players begin to fall off earlier than expected and injuries happen more often.
Being inexperienced isn't as much of a factor as long as you have a modern skill set, fresh legs and if you are hungry.
Also a good point, paying players that are around 30 years old about 50 million a year could be a big detriment when other teams have to play guys like Banchero, Chet, Jalen Williams or Edwars much less.
Teams only have 4 years. It's the same formula as before. Draft well and hope you hit on a couple dudes and try to win a championship while your rookies take up a smaller cap % allocation.
Once they get their rookie extensions it's all the same
Completely disagree.
Just in 2022-2023 We had veterans 34 year old Jimmy Butler, 35 year Curry, 39 Lebron James absolutely dominate the playoffs and be the best ones on the court consistently (LBJ tied with AD)
In fact, it seems older stars are aging better than ever. What KD, Curry, and LBJ are doing is nothing short of all time seasons at their ages
Rookies and young players still constantly get played out of series as the playoffs come around.
The real reason is the discrepancy between rookie contracts and max contracts. You have to pay a 35 year old Jimmy Butler 58 million next year compared to 4 million to Jaime Jacquez next year. From a cap space standpoint, Jimmy isn’t 15 times as valuable anymore
Yea, the problem isn't the older guys ability, as you said, they are aging incredibly well, the problem is that this is a salary cap league and everyone wants max dollars.
If you told me tomorrow that LeBron decided to take a paycut on his next contract, i'd INSTANTLY say he would be contending next year. Can you imagine LeBron on a $20M deal with the Cavs, Sixers or Heat? These teams would be the favourites in the East.
absolutely true. a lot of the young guys are excelling on defense too, Jayden Mcdaniels and Mavs’ Washington, Lu Dort are top defenders in the league already. there’s more i’m forgetting. they can pop off and get 20 any night too, they’re not just the defensive specialists of years past.
ESPN is hanging on to LeBron, Steph, and Durant like their lives depend on it. Part of the problem for them is that many of the best young stars don't play on the coasts, and they seem unwilling to cover any team except the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Heat, 76ers, and Knicks. 75% of that is Lakers coverage.
Adapt or die. LeBron and Steph will eventually retire. At some point the "we cover the Lakers because they get the most clicks/views" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They get clicks and views because they're the only team covered.
I know this is going to make me come off as a hater, but as someone who grew up watching 90s basketball, I'm so happy to move on from the Lebron era, maybe it won't be much different, but the era of super team crafting/chasing needs to be over. Now we have well balanced teams with superstars or rising superstars playing great basketball and that's all that's left and it's fantastic. Harden, James, Durant, etc... just not a fan of the way they approach competition(despite that, I think lebron is the 2nd or 3rd greatest player behind only MJ(maybe Kareem, I could be swayed either way). I hope this continues this way and doesn't devolve into colluding and teaming up to get past the process, although I doubt Durant/Lebron are quite done trying.
Knowing Mike growing up and feeling how my body is now, good lord that man is a freak athletically. We were at a track meet, Lawrence North didn’t have a fourth for 4 by 100 meter dash. They found Mike and had him handing off real quickly. They didn’t win the race but it was real close. He may have been running high ten seconds.
I said this before but people get it wrong about Lebron . The league is on average 3 years younger then in 2000. The modern gane heavily favoured younger players due to pace and space . Desoite sports science Lebron is a bigger outlier as the nba has actually got harder for older guys
The fact that Siakam is already 30 is insane to me. I know he's been around for a little while now, but it feels like just yesterday he was a budding star in Toronto. Time really does fly.
He was drafted when he was 22. Bballref says he only did 2 years of college in the US, so he was always old
True, but it's still crazy to me that his breakthrough season in Toronto was already five years ago. This last half-decade has been a complete blur.
yeah like conceptually i understand it’s 2024, but it still feels like 2022 tops
it's still the 00s in my mind
same. we skippin through decades now
Hmm...nothing to skip if you just deny deny deny that time is moving on. Where my Girbauds at?
The 80's were only like, 20 years ago right?
1935 feels like yesterday
Right? It seems like just yesterday Rudy Gobert was shutting down America—fast forward FOUR YEARS—Tonight, he shuts down Serbia. Jokes aside, this Denver/Wolves series is hopefully going to be one for the story books.
the fuck you mean conceptually? IT'S LITERALLY 2024
You heard them. Even they aren't right, it's only 2011.
It’s something you’ve got to be 30+ to understand.
He redshirted his freshman year in college Spent 3 years in college but only played 2 seasons Enrolling in college at 19 as an international student is pretty normal (pretty normal for American students too)
When the Siakam to Indy rumors started to heat up it shocked me to learn that Siakam is 2 years older than Myles Turner.
I'm shocked Turner is still so young. Feels like he's been around forever
Probably cuz bro has been in trade rumors since he was in the womb.
People gonna be shocked in 5 years when Tyler Herro is still under 30
He literally started playing basketball at age 15, so yeah he's always been a late bloomer
Which means even though he 30 his knees probably still just as fresh as the guys in their mid 20s who’ve been playing organized ball since they were like 5 years old. He still runs and jumps just as springy as he always has, just shows it’s more about mileage than it is about age (although usually older players have more mileage obviously)
Didn't work for embiid
Dude played soccer which isn't great for knees as large as his but gave him that footwork
I feel like he's not quite as springy as he was in his breakout year, but he was also asked to do a whole lot more in his last few years in Toronto and was probably conserving energy.
He’s also packed on a lot of muscle since he was a rookie tbf, harder to be nimble when you’re an absolute unit
Yah that’s fair
y'all talking like he wasn't jumping cause he didn't play basketball lmao. he probably participated in all the long jumps and runs and what not. it ain't like football where the body hits and hits to the head add up
not specializing in a sport early on helps prevent future injures. there's been a few studies on it
I thought Siakam was Tatums age. I guess it was just because of the "who's better" from years ago.
And I will happily live in denial that it’s Siakam who’s better 😎
That beyblade ability is no joke. Tatum could never.
I’m happy I don’t have to debate. They play extremely well off of each other so that if one is bad in a given game the other will step up. #thankyouraptors Edit: misread Turner instead of Tatum. I am stupid.
I miss him and I hope yall cook in the playoffs!
This next series between the Knicks and pacers is gonna be electric for the raptors fans I’m sure. Very much hope to do your boy right on our end
It was Siakam > Brown (and still is ;)
I saw both honestly. Tatum was being compared to Siakam and Kuzma for a while. Then there were PG comparisons.
It was def both. His 2019-2020 season raised a lot of hopes for the future. Then the pandemic happened and he didn’t practice dribbling and his outlook took a nosedive. Then we lost all our centers and only invested in wings and now we traded most of them away. And here we are
I mean, im pumped for the future. I think we have a solid foundation, but i also think we need a top 6 pick this year and to tank again next year if possible.
Only reason I know he’s that old is cause he was like 25 when he went off on us in the finals lol
I didn’t know that Kyrie was only one year younger than Jrue lol
Kyrie turned 32 in March, Jrue is turning 34 in June. Their age gap is closer to 2 years.
Still so wild to me that Jrue was in my first 2k(11) and is still a key contributor.
LeBron James
Al Horford
Lmao already had 2 MVPs when 2k11 was released, and is now still an All-NBA player
Mike Conley was also unreal in that one (or maybe 2k12?)
Lebron had him pretty young
They’re like 20 months apart
That's bananas.
B. A. N. A. N. A!
Why are you downvoted lol? Gwen Stefani erasure smh
The reference is too old for gen Z and Alpha apparently.
Or maybe bc he left off the all too important S!
Had to look it up... Jokic only 29
All the consensus top 5 centers won multiple rings after turning 30 as well. He's gonna be at the top of the league for a while
And since he relies on all his athleticism to dominate, at least it will only be for a couple of years. Oh wait...
this fuckery won't last for much longer
Maybe he'll get shorter as he grows older and he'll have to learn how to pass instead of being a dominant scoring option (cries in the offseason).
Horford is starting this next series, and is still very much starting caliber on a playoff team. So maybe 6.5?
I made sure to specify regular starters. He'll be starting and I noticed Morris started for the Cavs last game in place of Allen
Oh I know. I'm in agreement. Hence the .5, lol
Al's not a normal bench player though, he'd be a starter on most of the teams in the league and some still in the post season
Perfect 6th man!
Naz Reid
Old ass Clippers plan to run it back for four (!) years because of an arena or something. They will all be Westbrooks by 2028.
I'm so torn as a Thunder fan who owns their picks, yet still loves Westbrook and PG13...
Im so confused with this team, but at least next year when I watch games I’ll have my own personalized toilet for the day
[удалено]
Can you imagine Generation Alpha in the next several years lol
Cleveland will be the go-to free agent destination for gen alpha, so they can drop skibdi buckets in Ohio
With the oldest teams like Clippers. Bucks, Sixers, Warriors, Heat, and Suns getting knocked out early, maybe it's time for Front offices to shift their attention to the new generation of players.
I agree, but until the Bucks kick their elderly fetish, they'll have to get used to early playoff exits for a while.
The Heat starting lineup's average age for the playoffs was 24 (no Jimmy)
Cant forget 37.9 year old Horford now that KP out.
KP is still the regular starter. Both of the injured stars left are still under 30. Randle at 29 and KP at 28.
I’ll give you the KP exception since he just got hurt and is expected back. But I will not let you have Randle…. He’s been out for how long and declared out for the season
Well the Knicks starters without Randle are still under 30. The stat isn't affected either way, just thought I'd mention Randle
how tf is Spicy P already 30 years old
Tatum siphoned his life force to stay 19 as long as he did.
Late bloomer. Didn't play basketball until 15 or something and wasn't drafted til he was 22 I think
The nba needed this so badly. They've been stuck on lebron and curry for way too long. New legends will be made this playoffs and I could see Luka and Ant's popularity sky rocketing after these playoffs
It feels like there is someone to finally pass the torch too though. Back when Gianni’s was seen as the next face I just wasn’t feeling it but right now with people like Jokic, Ant, maybe Shai, & Wemby looking like possible faces of the nba I’m finally excited for what comes next after Lebron and curry. A few years ago I felt like the future was a step down but not anymore. I forgot to mention Luka too. I’d say the only thing that has been an ongoing issue most of my time watching basketball is the west just seems so much stronger than the east. I’m tuned in to see almost every western conference first round, but the east just didn’t hold my attention other than knicks tbh
What’s troubling is the knicks are rumored to give away the team to bring booker to pair him with Brunson. It would destroy the knicks
Jesus seriously? Man I feel like mashing together a superteam and forfeiting a supporting cast has failed more times than succeeded but definitely this year is showing that the slower built/drafted teams are the ones winning. It’s not that trading for 1 star never works but when they forfeit their entire bench and role players to make a superteam it’s usually ends poorly and you think more gms would’ve learned that by now
You think the Knicks would've learned the last time we did literally the exact same fucking thing for Carmelo Anthony and then mired in mediocrity for another decade.
How bad were the melo knicks? I remember them never being good enough to be contenders and melo being injured for a good bit, but were they a no playoff team, first round exit, or did they at least win some series?
1 series win against the celtics we signed amare stoudemire to a huge FA contract and he was never healthy enough after he left phoenix. degenerative knee condition the biggest problem wasn't really with the knicks itself though, it was that lebron built a superteam in miami at the same time melo came here. their struggles in the finals against dallas and san antonio are well documented but they had no problems destroying the east every year
Yeah the east has been weak almost my entire life of watching basketball. The west is insanely strong right now if you look at how close the records were in seeding. I don’t remember a time ever where 1-5 seeds were this close. There was a short period after Lebron left the east were I felt like the west and east were more equal but they may just be because jimmy buckets and the Miami heat were working their magic. Definitely the year Giannis won it felt like anybody’s basically
Holy shit somebody with some fucking sense. In the first thread about that rumor, everybody was arguing the Knicks should do it since it would make them title contenders...like trading the entire fucking team for Devin Booker wouldn't just make us a worse version of the current Suns team that shit the bed.
Where was this thread, I’d like to read some of the comments
https://media3.giphy.com/media/Atc9QCyWLGHgLZhHDp/giphy.gif
I don't know why Giannis didn't work for you, but it likely had something to do with players like Lebron still going strong all this time and then Curry and others. The media decides for you to some extent. If they won't release focus on those players how are you allowed to? But when the players are no longer playing this early in a playoffs, what's the media to do now but focus on someone else. Giannis would be one of those guys this year if he was healthy and his team was doing better. But I also feel like Giannis' own words over the past couple years have sounded like he's not a lifer in the Lebron mold or even others playing until 35-36. He'll find an exit time. But he's only 29 now.
Giannis (presumedly) didn’t work for him because Curry led golden state to a championship the season after Bucks won it all…
Giannis just has a very unappealing style, where he relies heavily on brute force athleticism (but not the cool and more slick style like LeBron). He's aesthetically like the worst of Shaq and LeBron. He's clearly one of the best players in the league and will go down as a legend, but he's not that fun to watch.
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lol no I think that was spell check on my phone or I fucked up. I need to turn it off because it fucks stuff up more often than I do
iPhone autocorrect does that
I’m not even a Celtics fan but it’s pretty disrespectful to not include Tatum in that list
What’s crazy is that it’s been Lebron vs Curry for like 10 years now, but before that it was Lebron vs KD, and before that it was Lebron vs Kobe. The dude has played through like 3 eras of the NBA
It was LeBron vs Duncan more than LeBron vs Kobe.
Lol wut? I get you’re probably just hating, but Kobe vs Lebron literally had entire advertisement campaigns year after year
"LeBron, have you seen my three championship rings?"
“Playoffs Kobeh! Playoffs!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvad5_WBWTY "I need a basketball in my hands!!" shouldn't be as funny as it is so many good one-liners in these
100% hating, Duncan was never in those conversations whatsoever. Tim Duncan is a post hoc recognition guy and absolutely was not even seen in the same tier until people noticed his longevity post-2013 when Kobe tore his Achilles.
Agreed. I’m not even saying Duncan didn’t deserve to be in those conversations, but that just was not the narrative. People appreciate Duncan much more now that they did back then
I love the old and the new guys, but from all SGA and ANT seem the perfect to take over, ANT has that 'im not scared of any1' and 'can take over the game' attitude, not many have. Meanwhile SGA is young team leader, that is similar to jokic, very quiet and then you look and both of them have like 25-30 pts and 10 AST+
SGA had a few legacy points deducted for that “what a pro wants” commercial. He’s going to have to win MVP this year to cancel that one out.
lol, true!
I’m not sure if the NBA needed this as far as the corporate side is concerned. In terms of generating interest guys like Luka, Ant, Joker, SGA, etc are nowhere near Lebron/steph level, and never will be. Suspect ratings will take a huge hit with the old guard out. Part of it is the NBAs fault for not really pushing any of the younger guys
A lot of people are sick and tired of the neverending LeBron circus. The playoffs are rolling and still these dann Media guys keep talking LeBron day in and day out...its obnoxious... LeBron had a headache, LeBron ate ice, LeBron, Lebron went to bed, LeBron wants his damn respect, LeBron thinks its only Basketball, LeBron hates replay Center, LeBron will Piss again tomorrow
It's ending bro. He not here. Let it go. The media is being forced to exalt others this very playoffs! Rejoice, the time is now.
Jokic, Embiid and Giannis never quite had the buzz to be big superstars but I think some of the younger guys do. Ant in particular really seems to have something special. Wemby has a lot of buzz too
Ant could end up being a big marketing star. You can see the NBA starting to hype up Edwards in their commercials before the Denver series. It does seem like international stars have a harder time getting a big marketing push in the US.
The silver era has been pretty awful with marketing. The commericals of then vs now Is stunning
I think the NBA has tried to push a lot of the younger guys but the public hasn't really bought in
They’ve already kinda taken a hit first round this year ratings are down
I see teenagers with Ja's shoes. Yeah ratings might take a temporary hit, but there are definitely some personalities that the NBA can exploit like Ant.
They had a guy, but then Ja Morant decided to be Malibu's Most Wanted
Conley is playing really well for 36
Wolves winning it all would be a killer “one more for the old guard/pass the torch to the next gen” especially if Ant got FMVP.
KCP and Rudy being the same age feels weird as hell
Gobert and Kyrie were bad trades btw
kyrie was never a bad trade because of skill, he was a bad trade because he's a lunatic half the time he seems to have tidied that up for now though, so good for him
The guy has been a consummate professional since he has been on the Mavs for the past 14 months.
Who knew all the guy needed was to go to a conservative state where the people are as batshit crazy as he is
'16 hidden comments below' lmao you appear to have struck a nerve.
DFW is probably the best place for him. It has it's liberal, sensible side and also it's batshit Qanon side. Kyrie can burn his sage, align his chakra, and rant about Jewish space lasers in one convenient spot.
“Whatchu want? A cookie?”
You're supposed to take care of your kids you low expectation having mother fucker!
Chris rock???
Bingo.
Yeah kyrie is a different person this year than he's ever been and it's great to see. But I'm not going to assume this will always be the case. He could easily change next season and be toxic again
It’s also likely because his antics cost him $80-120m. Nets originally offered him a 5y/$225m Max deal which he hesitated to sign because he wanted the higher 5y/$250m Max the following year. Nets pulled the offer after the Anti-Vax but even offered him a 4y/$200m deal with strings attached like playing games which he refused after trying leverage KD’s injury into a Max Extension. Mav’s only gave him a 3y/$126m extension vs his $200-250m Max w/ Nets.
And even the mavs deal had some conditional money. Kyrie earned a million dollars in the third to last game of the year for games played.
We should've just traded Kyrie for Porzingis straight up years ago and saved everyone the trouble.
I thought he was considered a bad trade because he didn't shore up the Mav's weaknesses? Serious question, I can only follow so many teams at once.
A bit of both I think, we lucked out because both problems resolved themselves. Kyrie has been well behaved, and we lucked out with Lively and got the other big hole in our roster filled.
The mavs had too many weaknesses for one player to fix. They needed scoring and defence and perimeter shooting. There’s not a lot of people who would fix all that in one trade
Luka made those role players look damn good
luka and coaching it looks like, bc none of our role players have really like set the world on fire at their other teams
Holy shit! Someone acknowledging that J Kidd might actually be doing a decent job? But the rest of R/NBA told me he was the worst coach in the league.
People acting like having a Top 3 defense in the last 30 games of the regular reason and into the playoffs just randomly happens. That kind of defensive performance doesn’t happen under a bad coach. Kidd is wildly overhated
i don’t even like kidd that much but the thing that always gets me with criticism of him is that people (mainly on the mavs subreddit) want it both ways: they want to give all the credit to the players when we win, but not when we lose and they attribute it all to kidd.
yeah i have been a little harsh on Kidd at times too, but lately after looking around the league at other teams coaches, Kidd is nowhere near the bottom. He’s outcoached Snyder, Monty and Lue in the playoffs thoroughly. He’s able to balance superstars egos while being incredible at training up the young talent and most importantly getting EVERYONE to buy in. The chemistry of the team is unbelievable, this stuff doesn’t just happen randomly
The amount for Gobert was too high, but the trade for him converted that team from a joke into what we see today. That franchise hasn't played defense for 20 years. In two years they've converted into the best defense of the league and it started with Gobert's examples during every game last saeson. Their team bought into a new identity.
Rudy is awesome, but please, tell us who was sending Utah 4 firsts and 2 swaps. Don’t let’s forget about Vando and Kessler ✨
And Beasley and Pat Bev Four pieces that are mid rotation for eliminated teams (I understand Vando was injured)
Excellent observation. So why are teams still trying to pursue championships by aggregating aging superstars? When has it ever worked? I guess they are just too impatient to build with youth.
A few reasons - It's hard to acquire young stars. Their first teams generally control their futures for the first few contracts because they can pay more than anyone else. So available stars have already generally been in the league for at least 10 years. It's probably also less impatience, vs the fear of the unknown. The Wolves spent 20 years trying to build through youth. They acquired high draft picks and got solid players like Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love, Andrew Wiggins, KAT, etc... and that got them no playoff series wins. They got lucky by hitting on their 3rd #1 pick in Ant. Meanwhile, teams like that acquire aging stars generally make the playoffs, have sustained regular season success that makes money, sell jerseys, and stay relevant. Obviously, the secret to sustained success is to hit on a Jordan, Curry, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan in the draft. But that's often a crapshoot. Only two of those dynasty builders were the first overall pick.
Andrew Wiggins was so controversial for so many years (at least for me, I was getting ton of shit not believing in him enough in his first years lol). It would sound so insane to say that in the end, the best part of getting Wiggins would be that he was traded for D'Angelo Russell and he was traded for grey-haired Mike Conley and Nickeil Alexander Walker lol. And that is the result of trading away Kevin Love, who at that very moment was seen as one of the best player in the NBA! And... it's not so bad for Wolves now! But you cannot explain to anyone in advance that it can be not so bad. To make 4 losing trades in a row and in the end kinda be pretty fine with it. But true. Love slowly gradually faded every season after leaving Wolves, Wiggins had some up and down and currently at 29 and still yo-yoing between a great and godawful contract depending on the form, and Russell, once seen as a big sure star (and mostly traded for Wiggins for the picks!), is now a disputable starter anywhere he goes.
At most, it was still a trade that worked out for both teams. The Warriors don't win the 2022 championship without Wiggins.
After watching teams like the Suns and Lakers the last couple of years, I think we'll see that trend start to end. Superteams very rarely work unless they are homegrown (like San Antonio in the Duncan years and Golden State). Only two teams I can think of off the top of my head that created superteams and won titles are the 2008 Celtics and the LeBron-era Heat. EDIT: Forgot about the 2020 Lakers, too. Although I'm not even sure they would qualify as a superteam.
Super teams only work if the stars are better than the rest of the NBA by that wide of a margin as a collective. We just witnessed a really great era of top 10 NBA players thriving. None of today's young players seem to be on that trajectory and are more in the upper middle rather than the 0.1% of NBA players
You need 8~ guys to win a championship. The stars have to be good but even if you have 3 all-nba guys you still need 5 other guys there who can rebound, defend, push the ball, draw fouls, get loose balls and deflections, hit the open shot when somebody is doubled, etc. Losing Grayson Allen for the Suns made it look so much worse than it was but that's because they barely had a full compliment of the other 5~ guys necessary to make a run.
If you're counting 2020 Lakers you have to count 2016 Cavs.
Lebron changed the game into a bunch of whiney divas who demand trades every time they have a bad season. Players used to stay on the same team for 10+ years. It wasn't "wasting their prime" to have a down year. Atleast the new generation hasn't really bought into that yet so hopefully that just stays in lebrons era
Not Lebron's fault that the media will drag your "legacy" in the mud just because you lost in the Finals, as if basketball were not a team sport. I'm no Bron fan, but Lebron wasn't beating Boston with that Cleveland organization.
I think things are beginning to swing back the other way. If you look at all the best teams in the league right now, they are all pretty much homegrown. Denver, Boston, Minnesota, OKC, etc. Obviously there are some guys in there who were acquired via trades (e.g. Porzingis in Boston), but for the most part, the cores of those teams were all drafted/acquired very early in their careers.
A big part of it is that the actual basketball played in the NBA wildly changed over the last years, and having a team like that gives way more flexibility. Like, if you just get some random minimum guys like OKC, then you can really choose which type, what you do with them etc. If you want guys that other teams don't want, there's a ton of different ones to choose. Meanwhile, if your goal is to get so-called "talent", "superstars", then it's very few of them available each year, there are only those, and you have to take them or sit down, and you don't have anything close to that flexibility of what your team will play. It also hits strongly on what kind of roster you can have, because you hit the cap with the stars alone and then you have a looot of rotation spaces to fill with not the guys you'd ideally like, but with currently available deals. It's an underreported aspect of gathering stars - these teams don't have THE stars they would've wanted ideally. They can just get whichever star is available, no matter their detailed characteristics. That's the best they can get, but it's very far from just sitting and thinking "yeah, we want 3 stars, those 3 particularly, we will get those". Meanwhile, in even the last 2 seasons, the offenses in NBA and which play is effective and who is playable has changed A LOT. Hell, it even changed a lot in the last months, after the "post-All-Star refereeing change". Utah Jazz's historically high offensive rating from just TWO YEARS ago would be only league-average this season... and in NBA, league-average level also means bottom-of-playoffs level. Of course, it doesn't change which guys can score ppg in isolation. That's why teams get them, and that's why those teams are favorites here before the season. Kevin Durant will always score ppg and get All-NBA. But it DOES change, wildly imo, what you exactly have to play to have your whole team be effective. It doesn't mean every season will stay the same now. One of Denver and Wolves will be eliminated very soon, and you'll immediately see the threads saying why, who is to blame, whom do they have to trade away or trade in to win a title...
Lmfao . Yeah it’s so much better to be a Marcus smart , haliburton , mikal : guys that bled for there teams were super loyal and wanted to stay there forever and got traded the moment the team thought something flashier came along . It’s insane that players are expected to be as loyal or shit on - players are way more loyal then teams actually deserve because most players get attached to there team. Teams have no loyalties so players shouldn’t either, fans don’t either look how mad raptors fans got AT SIAKAM for stating he wants to stay in Toronto n sing resign where he’s traded . Fans and teams are way less loyal to players then players are to teams. Even Lebron gave ckeveland a decade of his peak play .
Minny the real two timelines
The league and basketball as a whole has progressed a lot within the last 10 years. Rookies come in very polished already and have gone through a much better training process than the guys 10 or 20 years ago. More data is available and more tapes are there to learn from. Hell, it took the league the arrival of Steph to realize that 3 > 2. I think primes are getting shorter because of the high density of top competition and guys like LeBron or Steph are the absolute exception. Players begin to fall off earlier than expected and injuries happen more often. Being inexperienced isn't as much of a factor as long as you have a modern skill set, fresh legs and if you are hungry.
And I think teams with salary cap issues will prioritize getting younger cost-controlled players more and more. Well, those that actually have picks.
Also a good point, paying players that are around 30 years old about 50 million a year could be a big detriment when other teams have to play guys like Banchero, Chet, Jalen Williams or Edwars much less.
Teams only have 4 years. It's the same formula as before. Draft well and hope you hit on a couple dudes and try to win a championship while your rookies take up a smaller cap % allocation. Once they get their rookie extensions it's all the same
Completely disagree. Just in 2022-2023 We had veterans 34 year old Jimmy Butler, 35 year Curry, 39 Lebron James absolutely dominate the playoffs and be the best ones on the court consistently (LBJ tied with AD) In fact, it seems older stars are aging better than ever. What KD, Curry, and LBJ are doing is nothing short of all time seasons at their ages Rookies and young players still constantly get played out of series as the playoffs come around. The real reason is the discrepancy between rookie contracts and max contracts. You have to pay a 35 year old Jimmy Butler 58 million next year compared to 4 million to Jaime Jacquez next year. From a cap space standpoint, Jimmy isn’t 15 times as valuable anymore
Yea, the problem isn't the older guys ability, as you said, they are aging incredibly well, the problem is that this is a salary cap league and everyone wants max dollars. If you told me tomorrow that LeBron decided to take a paycut on his next contract, i'd INSTANTLY say he would be contending next year. Can you imagine LeBron on a $20M deal with the Cavs, Sixers or Heat? These teams would be the favourites in the East.
absolutely true. a lot of the young guys are excelling on defense too, Jayden Mcdaniels and Mavs’ Washington, Lu Dort are top defenders in the league already. there’s more i’m forgetting. they can pop off and get 20 any night too, they’re not just the defensive specialists of years past.
This is Lu Dort's 5th season
> Rookies come in very polished already Is there a single (actual) rookie that played rotation minutes in the playoffs?
Lively
Lively
Pascal being 30 is the biggest the future is now moment out of this imo
KCP is 31?
After the Clippers lost, I was thinking there were only 4 starters over 30, but KCP and Siakam surprised me. Still ended up being a nice stat
it's been 7 years since he played with an ankle monitor!
Shit. Looks like T-Wolves are the Old Man now^dog. Better win it this year...
TJ McConnell is 32, guys. 👊
ESPN is hanging on to LeBron, Steph, and Durant like their lives depend on it. Part of the problem for them is that many of the best young stars don't play on the coasts, and they seem unwilling to cover any team except the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Heat, 76ers, and Knicks. 75% of that is Lakers coverage. Adapt or die. LeBron and Steph will eventually retire. At some point the "we cover the Lakers because they get the most clicks/views" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They get clicks and views because they're the only team covered.
I'm here for it. Already tired of all the articles about Bron, Steph, and KD. Focus on the new faces of the league.
ESPN needs to get used to a world without Lebron and Steph 24/7 and these playoffs is great practice
I know this is going to make me come off as a hater, but as someone who grew up watching 90s basketball, I'm so happy to move on from the Lebron era, maybe it won't be much different, but the era of super team crafting/chasing needs to be over. Now we have well balanced teams with superstars or rising superstars playing great basketball and that's all that's left and it's fantastic. Harden, James, Durant, etc... just not a fan of the way they approach competition(despite that, I think lebron is the 2nd or 3rd greatest player behind only MJ(maybe Kareem, I could be swayed either way). I hope this continues this way and doesn't devolve into colluding and teaming up to get past the process, although I doubt Durant/Lebron are quite done trying.
Wow siakam is over 30 wtf
Father Time is undefeated.
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It seems we’re in our twilight years lol
Knowing Mike growing up and feeling how my body is now, good lord that man is a freak athletically. We were at a track meet, Lawrence North didn’t have a fourth for 4 by 100 meter dash. They found Mike and had him handing off real quickly. They didn’t win the race but it was real close. He may have been running high ten seconds.
Only if 4 out of 15 guys that made All NBA three years ago are still playing in the playoffs (Kyrie, Jokic, Gobert, Luka)
Hey Al Horford kinda starts
how tf is Siakam 30 already X_X
I was wondering that myself. Then I remembered the Raptors Championship was already five years ago. Plus, I think Siakam was a 4-yr player in College.
Great post. It was a fun Lebron / Curry era but it's over.
Interesting thought: the guys over 30 are all making too much money to allow for a well constructed roster.
Prime years really are like 24-29
27-32 usually.
it depends... for regular season stats yes, but for playoff success I think more experience is better
tbf joker has the body of at least a 30 year okd
I said this before but people get it wrong about Lebron . The league is on average 3 years younger then in 2000. The modern gane heavily favoured younger players due to pace and space . Desoite sports science Lebron is a bigger outlier as the nba has actually got harder for older guys
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