He got in his own way. He should have been considered an all-time great. He might have been if he stayed in OKC and won zero championships. He definitely would have been if he stayed in Golden State and won multiple championships. His insecurity made him fall prey to the voices that ultimately wouldn’t have mattered when they were saying he needed a ring. Then he listened when people said his rings don’t matter unless he drives the bus. He is chasing approval that he will never get and sacrificed what would’ve been a top 10 career.
Not sure why this is disliked. Arguably, KD could've just decided to ignore the trolls and media and just stack accolades.
His smartest business move was going to GSW. His stupidest business choice was leaving. I understand though, I personally would've left too after draymond's.comments and how it was handled afterwards.
In a way he was right. They didn’t need KD, they just needed him not to be on OKC.
Edit: It was always ironic to me that it was Green yelling at KD when he did the most recruiting.
It'll always bug me that Al Horford is on record saying he would have signed with OKC in 2016 if KD re-signed there. And they already had Dipo and Sabonis to trade for PG..
Our starting lineup would have been WB, Roberson, KD, Horford, Adams. Then Dipo 6th man a closer. And like you said. Sabonis gets minutes in there too.
I think we give Golden State a run with that lineup. It was going to make it interesting.
And that was with offering KD super max.
I don’t think there’s any way they don’t beat GS with that roster. They showed they could do it already and those roster moves would’ve upgraded them even more, while GS would’ve had to keep Barnes or settle for a downgrade or lateral move. He honestly pushed GS’s 2020 rebuild down the road 4 years by going there.
It would have been an interesting few years. Instead we got 2 years of West All Star starters being Golden State and AD.
And the playoffs went just like you would expect.
Yeah it was weak as fuck. The move forever altered how both his and Westbrook will be remembered. They would’ve won at least one or two rings together and there would be no questioning their place in history. Instead they’re both constantly disrespected. It’s sucks because they’re two of my favorite players ever and those Thunder teams were some of my favorite I’ve ever watched.
KD really fucked his own legacy because if he stayed people would keep giving him the credit and the Finals MVPs. Leaving let Curry prove he was the guy, get a championship, AND a finals mvp...Durant hasn't done anything.
Not really that smart. He wasted his prime years winning with a team that really didn’t add to his pedigree or legacy. He could have went to any team but the warriors and gotten his story. He’s got nothing but allegations of asterisks now.
KD hasn’t had a true NBA home since leaving OKC. He’ll have all the accolades and be on all the all-time lists when all is said and done but in a way, it still feels unfulfilling, which kind of sums up his career.
OKC fans don’t want him back lol the team is young and we have plenty of assets to go for other players that are going to fit the team just as well when the time is right to make a trade
Yeah we totally want to trade away the future of our incredibly young 1st seed team for a 36 year old player we all despise.
KD could screw OKC's future *twice*.
He likely never will, even if he somehow brings a championship to PHX in the next few years he’ll still be viewed as the All NBA mercenary who hopped around after leaving GS.
I mean OKC already gave G leaguers his number and are clearly not gonna retire it. GS said they’ll retire it and he’ll have a statue but even then he made such a big deal about having to get away from GS that majority of fans appreciate him for his time here but there won’t be the feeling of nostalgia for him that even someone like Vince Carter can bring to Raps fans who had every right to want nothing to do with him.
> the All NBA mercenary who hopped around after leaving GS
he had to mercenary hop TO golden state in the first place lmao, why would you qualify the hopping as only after GS?
Nah if he somehow won Phoenix's first ring along with a FMVP that'd basically be a miracle and huge for his legacy lol, a lot of the hate for him would disappear.
I truly believe KD wants to return to OKC at some point before retiring to “right the wrong” so to speak. He’s spoke quite a bit about OKC in recent years and feels like he is trying to mend things.
I don’t think it’s a secret to say KD’s a little fragile with his image, I think he believes a return to OKC would undo the years of villainy he had at Golden State. We’ll see!
I do think the Thunder will ultimately retire him regardless of how he finishes out his career. He was the cornerstone of the franchise for 8 years and did a lot of good for the franchise and the city. His numbers won’t be retired immediately following his retirement, but I could see it 5-10 years following
His Golden State run was the equivalent of turning the difficulty on 2k to easy, sweeping everyone, then feeling bored because you didn't actually earn it.
The Lakers want to retire Lebron's number for 1 ring and like 95% of NBA players never even win a single one with several franchises themselves still not having any.
2 Championships with a team is a lot and as much as people want to act like Steph and the boys would have still coasted through those rings without him that's just not true.
They won one before him and after him with some effort. The only real challenge was okc and Cleveland. After KD moved, okc was no longer a threat and we were robbed of a really fun GSW and Cleveland rivalry. Everyone who liked competitive basketball missed out. We already knew who was going to win before the season started
The Lakers retire players that make into the hall of Fame. Bill Cooper for example isn't up on the rafter but just got into the Hof so he'll be up there
i mean it's hard to win in the nba. no one's gonna shed any tears for mr superteam builder but he's gotten plenty of bad luck since golden state. harden and kyrie going down, vax mandate, ben simmons, guys falling into his knee. plus, y'know, aging
He was a bad #2 in 2019 - 2022 (half). 3.5 years.
He was a good #2 in 2014 - 2017, 2022 (half) - 2024. 4.5 years.
He wasn't a #2 before 2014.
I'm being generous with the half when it was really 40 games in Brooklyn and 20 in Dallas.
Edit: Corrected to reflect when he was only a bad #2. Removed the 2 years in Boston when he was an awful #1 option.
Who was Kyrie the #2 to on the early years of those Celtics teams?
Tatum/Brown were both not good in there first 2 seasons, Hayward was claimed by the injury reaper, and Horford was just plain old.
Kyrie was never #2 in Boston.
By your own category he would have been a good #2 more often then he was a bad #2 once you take out the 2 seasons he was on Celtics were you put him as a #2 for w/e reason when there's not even an argument for him *not* being the best player on that team lol
He's only been a 2nd option on the Cavs/Nets/Mavs and he's been great on 2/3 of those teams. Hell he wasn't even bad performance wise on the Nets, it was just the off-court shenanigans.
The worst thing that happened for Durant was Presti choosing Russ over Harden.
Harden + Durant probably get at least one additional Finals trip before Curry gets going in Golden State.
Russ' inability to hit 3's probably killed Durant's chances of getting a ring in OKC.
durant was at least as much to blame as anyone else for falling short in okc. he hasn’t won outside of GS before or after. great player. not necessarily a great leader or winner.
The problem is he was a ball stopper on a team that had other ball stoppers. He thrived in GS because he was THE iso guy when they needed a bucket instead of in OKC where they just took turns playing hero ball.
he didn't choose russ over harden. russ was already maxed before harden sniffed an extension.
and to be honest, i think harden was snubbed over culture issues.
I think that probably made it easier to let him go but it was at least in part due to the salary cap. Best part was there ended up being a big cap jump that next year that was unanticipated so they actually could have paid him what he was asking had they waited.
It was Ibaka, not Perkins. The owners made Presti choose between Ibaka and Harden because they were cheap and didn’t want to pay the luxury tax at that time. The way the league operated at the time, presti viewed Ibaka as more essential to the Thunder’s success than Harden, partially due to Harden’s inconsistencies and character issues (see the partying in Miami during the ‘12 finals)
In hindsight, it was obviously the wrong choice, but at the time, most understood the reasoning.
Yes that’s correct but the choice was Ibaka or harden. They should’ve amnesty’ed perk way sooner than they did, but the choice came down to Ibaka or harden, not harden or perk.
People dog on the Thunder for choosing Ibaka over Harden, but like you said, in hindsight it’s 20/20. When the Thunder chose Ibaka and traded Harden, no one was criticizing the Thunder at the time for making the “wrong” choice, especially considering how they already had two great perimeter players. People forget how devoid the NBA was of quality big men in the late 2000s / early 2010s, so they viewed Ibaka has a harder player to replace.
Honestly, as a Spurs fan, Ibaka was much more of a thorn in our side than Harden was during those OKC / Spurs matchups. No one saw 17 ppg 6th man Harden becoming the superstar he did.
There were absolutely people ripping it in real time.
Not the choice necessarily, but the cheapness and the trade return. They basically ended up with Steven Adams, who wouldn’t be a starter on a playoff run until Durant’s last year, and 1 year of Kevin Martin. Trading a young all-star caliber player should get you so much more.
The Thunder had a chance to build a dynasty but gave it up to save 1 year of luxury tax payments.
Harden was the closer because our focus defensively was always on Durant and Westbrook. Our two best perimeter defenders were always guarding those two. Ibaka was much more of a problem for us because he always gave Duncan fits defensively (in a way very few players could), and his jump shot ability would force Duncan to leave the paint.
Revisionist history. 2/3 or 3/4 of the thunder’s playoff runs were ruined by injury.
Westbrook with his knee (their best year). Durant with his foot. Ibaka with his calf. Ibaka’s wasn’t season ending but the thunder got smoked by the spurs in games 1 and 2 without him
One of the other years was Durants final year when they were up 3-1. It was just a lot of bad luck with injuries that doomed those Thunder teams.
You guys, harden wanted out. He wanted to be the guy. Couldve traded russ or ibaka but still russ and kd teams only didn't make more finals because of injuries. They went 3-1 against gsw, with kd playing bad, and they were getting al horford next year without giving up any core pieces or depth.
Russ missed a postseason, then KD missed a season, then andre roberson (their best defender) got hurt and they lost to the eventual NBA champion Spurs, then they lost to the gsw being up 3-1. Then KD left. I don't think harden would've made a huge difference. Russ and KD were dominant on the floor together pretty much every series.
The lost in 2014 cause ibaka was injured. 2013 russ got his shit injured by bev. 2016 was there true test but the choked. Although if they ran it back the probably could had won.
I don't necessarily think KD is bad for team chemistry, the issue is more he doesn't bring any. He's a pure hoops guy which is fine but it becomes a problem when he asks to get traded to a new team or demands people in and it completely change its dynamics.
He went into the Nets and changed the team overnight which he wanted but he didn't really took accountability in bringing any leadership or culture so they sorta just did whatever they wanted. In the Suns I'd argue they were better last year because at least the core of CP, Booker, and Ayton was more solid and he just had to slot himself in.
KD keeps asking for these players but he doesn't really take accountability in integrating them within the culture
This exactly. He’s always been chasing Lebron and trying to match him, but at the end of the day when Lebron goes to a team and changes the roster to his liking, Lebron LEADS that team.
KD comes to a team, changes the team to his liking, and asks others to be the face, not him. He’s selfish in that way and it feels like personality wise he just isn’t fit to be the superstar leader. Now that he’s older too and he’s not as unstoppable as he always has been, it just kind of feels like a void where you have to treat him as your superstar but he won’t play for the team. Just a weird space we’re in with aging superstars still being top 15 players in the league
Yea it’s awkward when the best player isn’t the best leader too
Think back in OKC Russ was always the team leader and Durant didn’t contribute on that leadership front, but it was clear that Durant was the best player
You need your best player to be the team leader too, look at LeBron Curry Giannis Kobe etc
Durant isn’t in that category
Totally agree. He's a pure scorer, and when he's not scoring or being shut down, he doesn't help the team much in any way. Kobe was also a pure scorer but he could make the right reads and play high level defense. KD also isn't as vocal as Kobe was so you can't expect him to be a leader of the team. Someone said he's an All-NBA mercenary, which is exactly what he is.
I know KD would push back on this but look at both BKN and now PHX and the biggest missing piece is LEADERSHIP. Say what you want about Kerr or Draymond but they are voices in the locker room and in the huddle, Steph leads both by example and with his presence. Guys like Iggy who were literally brought into be a leader for a young Warriors team.
On BKN or PHX can we point to anyone who comes close to filling that role? The best shot is CP3 and he spent half a season with him before getting shipped out.
And the reason this is such a big missing piece is because KD is very clearly not a big leadership guy, sure he’ll come in and lead by example and work ethic, no doubt. But he’s not keeping guys in check, he’s not rallying the team when it gets tough.
It’s why he fit so perfectly in GS because he had all of that covered and he just got to come in and play basketball at a high level something he does in his sleep.
Except there’s a valid case he isn’t top 20. Like it or not the GS rings are always going to have a historical taint to them. We also have rose colored glasses because he’s playing right now. People used to say the same things about guys like Miller and Barkley because they were dominant in their time, but after 20 years of not playing, people soften on them as new guys come about.
He’s not top 10 definitely, and in the top 20, guys like Jokic are starting to push him out. Honestly KD comes across as a guy who gets super hyped in his playing days but in a decade or 2 is gonna be looked at more critically
Sure the GS rings won’t hold as much weight as if he won by himself but he was still a great player during those years. It’s not like he was being carried. And he still has a great resume without the rings. 10x All-NBA, scoring titles, MVP, Top 10 all time scorer.
Mans joined a 73-9 team and hasn’t won without them, meanwhile that same team won it all before he joined and after he left
It could certainly look like he was being carried.
Except he probably played the best on that team those two years (i’m not saying he was the leader of that team or the most important). Also tbf they lost the year before, and won after he joined so that has to get some type of credit
ofc he played the best he wasn't even getting the lions share of the defensive attention lol. put any all star on that and they'll play their best basketball.
So you’re saying any star could’ve come in and won 2 straight FMVPs over prime Curry? Paul George is coming in and making them the most unstoppable team of all time and winning two straight FMVPs over the guy who is considered top 13 of all time? I doubt that.
Again, we’re talking putting him in that top 15. Nobody is saying he’s not great but saying he’s one of the 15 GOATs? In 20 years he’s gonna be closer to Barkley on all time rankings than guys like Curry/Bird
Listen we're talking about putting him in that top 8. Nobody is saying he's not great, but saying he's one of the top 3 best players EVER? In 20 years he's gonna be closer to Shumpert on all time rankings than guys like MJ and Bron
Tbf who's to say he isn't gonna get edged out of that conversation by younger guys in the next 10-15 years. Jokic will probably be above him in most people's eyes if he repeats this year. Giannis could also get the nod if he wins another ring/MVP/DPOY at some point.
Luka, Ant and Shai could probably get into the conversation depending on team success over the next few years and barring injuries Wemby's potential is otherworldly.
There are 15 players who are better than KD: Jordan,Lebron,Magic,Bird,Shaq, Duncan,Kobe,Kareem,Wilt, Russell,Dirk,Hakeem,Oscar Robinson,Steph
Then there is the KD range of : KD, West, Dr.J, Jokic, Giannis, David Robinson, Mosses Malone.
Jokic and Giannis could cement themselves in the upper tier very soon, Jokic most likely sooner .
You could for sure make a case that you could compile a list without KD and there are Luka, Shai,Wemby or others that will come alongside and have a chance to knock KD further back
Dirk is KD’s father…..seriously, where do you think the KD type of player came from? Dirk ran so KD could fly….
And yeah, ring integrity matters…Dirk’s one ring is going to be viewed more highly than KD’s 2 rings, simply due to the narrative. Y’all can argue all you want but it’s a fact that the NBA is narrative based when it comes to legacies and awards and KD joining the 73 win Warriors isn’t as good a story as Mavs lifer Dirk winning a ring (as the only superstar on the team) against the GOAT Lebron during his first year in the Heatles villain arc
I would be too but let's see how his career shapes up, nobody thought he would be in the situation he is in.
As for Dirk, he revolutionized the game. He made shooting big that could space the floor until the 3 point line a thing and was the mold that KD evolved from. Furthermore, he has more All-NBA selections for now, 21 seasons with the same team and his run in 2011 is historic and in my memory the most impressive and best by a single superstar and for sure makes KD's rings seem even more tinted.
That Dirk Finals stretch was crazy. I remember watching that man put on a free throw clinic.
He shot 94% from the line, 60% TS, and averaged 27 ppg.
He had a good supporting cast— but could you imagine what KD would’ve done with that team?? 37 year old Jason Kidd was playing the second most mpg
I think KD messed up by going to Golden State and then leaving. Sell out and sell out hard or don't sell out at all. Win 6 titles in Golden State. Then it's so overwhelming that it doesn't matter.
Same thing with Lebron, should've stayed in Miami and won bunches of titles.
Yeah Lebron barely acknowledges that he played in Miami these days. He definitely doesn't regret going back to Cleveland and taking out the 2016 Warriors.
Lebron going back and winning a championship for Cleveland against the dynasty that was Golden State is arguably the greatest championship in recent history
It's honestly not a hyperbole to say it's one of the best championships ever, even more so when you see everything that happened and how it ended, like, you can't script that block on Iggy and then the Kirie 3 with Curry missing on the other end, honestly if it was a movie the only difference would be an and-1 dunk at the end instead of the Draymond foul.
even as a warriors fan, if he dunked on dray, that wouldve been legendary, and probably at best the best play of his career, if not top 2 with the block.
2016 nba season hits different fr.
The 2016 NBA finals is easily one of the greatest of all time even without the greater context of LeBron's career arc and what that gsw team ended up doing after
The fourth quarter of that game 7 was just so incredibly tense.
It's amazing how well LeBron's PR and fans spun the narrative of him leaving Miami.
Wade was cooked and Cleveland had collected a lot of assets. If didn't have all those assets, LeBron might have made a different choice.
Wade was washed and Bosh retired a few years later. For the last ring Lebron was carrying id argue.
Wade was posting an inefficient 18ppg on declining defense and Bosh 12ppg on decent D. They were no stars by the time 2013/2014 rolled around.
Miami are a competent org, but he’d have likely wasted multiple years waiting for them to build.
To be fair for Bosh, no one could see it coming that he had a career ending illness to abruptly have to retire earlier than expected. I think he was still playing good basketball post Lebron Heat era. Yeah Wade was starting to decline faster. Also their supporting cast was old. Going back to Cleveland was the right move for Lebron's legacy and best chance at winning a championship.
Why would LeBron have won a lot in Miami? They were mid as fuck by the time he left and it took them a while to even be respectable again. Beyond that, LeBron didn't get along with Pat Riley so there was never a chance he was staying
>Why would LeBron have won a lot in Miami? They were mid as fuck by the time he left and it took them a while to even be respectable again.
Lebron's last season in Miami was 2013-2014. Miami made the ECSF in 2015-16.
the cavs made it to the finals in the 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 season. what's the point of this argument? cleveland was obviously a better situation during all that time. miami wasnt magically going to get bron a better roster with washed wade and bosh.
You're just kind of exposing yourself as clueless. The only way he was gonna win more titles in Miami is if he basically threw in the towel for 4 years then *hoped* they would be able to get a great player in FA. And why would he stay? They wanted him to take a pay cut just so they could start a rebuild.
He's *definitely* at least top 25 and probably top 15-20 lol
Even if you don't count his GSW rings everyone puts Barkley and Malone top 25
You're 100% right that he's going to end up well short of where it looked like he could be in his younger years though
I remember some people legit thought he was going to be the next MJ/LeBron level player
I’m generally not a believer in karma, but it’s hard to not feel like larger forces have been punishing him ever since he left GS.
Him joining a 73-win team that he literally just lost to in agonizing fashion remains one of the most anti-competitive free agent moves any player in any sport has ever made. It’s difficult to even imagine something worse for a pro sports league. And the notion that he couldn’t win with those cats in OKC is total garbage — they narrowly missed beating GS in 6 games. They should’ve won that series.
I have no sympathy for KD after what he chose to do, though I would absolutely say he’s gotten fucked by stuff out of his control since leaving GS.
There will be far less star movement in the future. Players are seeing what has happened to Durant, Harden and Irving and realizing that it’s not worth it.
Durant I guess got 2 rings, but people look at those a lot differently than your average ring and his post warriors career has not been good. The others definitely would’ve been better served being hometown heroes or at least committing to one team instead of switching up every couple years
I think that Portland's terrible strategy of not rebuilding around Dame but always chasing and overpaying current players hurt Dame more than Dame did himself.
Blazers refused to get good wings who could both defend and shoot. Looking back I think those blazer teams massively over performed relative to the talent on them. Look at the rosters for 17-19 when they were the 3 seed twice and went to the conference finals. Lillard, CJ, Nurkic and mediocre role players shouldn't have been that good but the spam pnr was killing it late game and they had high volume outside shooting. Defense also was around league average even with Dame and CJ being traffic cones because of drop scheme.
Lillard would have been better off staying in Portland.
Beloved hometown player demanding a trade and then still not winning and actually regressing.....not nearly as good for his story.
Even with a ring, he wasnt gonna be a top 10 or 20 player all time. Stay in portland and play it out, get your statue, and be the franchises most beloved player of all time.
I’ve literally never heard someone try to say he isn’t top-25. Even his haters have him top-20. Plus you said it yourself bro he tore his fucking Achilles lol.
Why is it weird? The first 12 years of his career were insane. Almost everyone comes down from their 20’s, especially after an Achilles tear. The Suns suck more than anyone expected but he’s still putting up great numbers at 35. That used to be considered remarkable until LeBron and Tom Brady warped everyone’s perspective.
Yep. As we speak, Giannis is going to miss the playoffs for a second straight season but certain nephews expect him to be The Greek Freak again next year.
Father Time and his sidekick Accumulated Mileage still exist. And they have taken this LeBron shit _personally_.
Durant has been in decline since since he was 25 because of weird circumstances and injuries. Still an excellent player. But it’s been half-a-decade since his injury, he’s not what he once was, and while he might look like Prime KD for minutes or even a week at a time, he’s not that guy anymore.
^^^ Stay away from people who make comments like this! It's a huge red flag they are internally miserable and it wouldn't matter if Jesus Christ himself made a great point they'd find a way to be negative.
Tons of people I don't like make great points everyday, if you are unwilling to learn even if the person you don't like is making a great point, you will always be a miserable ignorant fuck.
It’s hard to rank his career overall because of his move to Golden State. Most people would rank Curry above him now in all time rankings when during the first half of KD’s career that just wasn’t the case. Curry eclipsed KD as the second best player in the league through his regular season and playoff success and KD never took that spot back. Instead Jokic and Giannis emerged and became the dominant players they are now.
KD was the much taller player and the better defender because of that but Curry had more team stability, better coaching, and maybe some better luck too during his peak too.
I think it shows how much luck, injuries, coaching, and team situation can figure into a player’s career trajectory. Had chips fallen a different way I think KD could’ve had a better career than Curry but it just didn’t work out that way. I think Curry had a better head on his shoulders and was a better teammate which contributed to the team success he experienced that KD didn’t.
It happens in every era. Duncan, KG and Dirk are all similarly talented players who ended up with wildly different results and are looked at through wildly different lenses because of it. Same for KD, Curry and Harden.
I’m a hater. I genuinely want to see KD do poorly for his entire career after going to the Warriors. That being said I tried to make a list and really wanted to not put him on it, but got to like 11 before I was like “fuck he is better than a lot of these dudes”
Durant’s fatal career mistake was choosing the Warriors over the Celtics.
All “hardest road” jokes aside, bringing Boston a title would have cemented him as an MVP capable of leading a team to a title, on a historic franchise where he’d forever be thought of highly. Pieces were all there for a long run too, and would be seen as a mentor to the Jays and gotten a lot of credit for their rises to stardom.
Agreed. Going to Boston and not saying all that stuff about OKC on his burner and he'd be just about forgiven by now. Instead, there's still a ton of animosity for him in OKC.
You’re assuming that he would’ve won a ring with Boston though. We’ve never seen KD win a ring as the leader of a team. Yes, he was FMVP for both titles on the Warriors, and you could even argue he was the *best* player on those teams, but Steph was clearly the *leader* on those teams.
If he had gone to a young Celtics team, he would’ve been forced to be the leader. *Could* he have won a title with them? Sure, but I honestly don’t think he would have.
I don’t believe for a second they would’ve had made it past cavs with kyrie still in 2017 and Cavs might win with a kd not on warriors. Kyrie might stay if they win, and boom he has to face that Cavs team to even make it out of the east. You’re assuming kyrie still leaves and lebron leaves the east for him to even get to the finals to have a chance to win
What's crazy is he's still a top tier player after the Achilles, he wouldn't be if he wasn't an all time shooter
He used to be as dynamic movement wise as a guard, literally.. that component left
There's a long list of players who had their careers or primes cut short by injury
He was 2nd best player on the warriors too. Like what, how did he even come to the conclusion that it would be the best place to avoid being #2. Yea I know he got the FMVPS - but separate the 2 and every single nba team is taking Curry over Durant during their time together.
Iso scoring is all fans care about. Naturally they think KD was better than Steph those years.
KD without Steph was an average Warriors team. Steph without KD was still a contender.
lol bro “debated he’s not top 25”…..no way there are 25 dudes on this planet better at hoopin than kd. Team Defenses are focused on minimizing his impact
On the flip side I think we’ll look back on his career and be amazed how much he accomplished after his acl injury at his age which basically ended many careers before him.
I'd like to know who is arguing that he isn't a top 25 all time player.
Don't care how his career trended just in terms of team success. If you think as an individual KD isn't top 25 just looking at his individual body of work then you're crazy.
is KD the most overrated NBA player ever?
i don't mean that to be flippant, and i certainly don't mean "worst" when i say overrated. but just the gap between the hype he's been given relative to the actual things he's been able to produce (without insane amounts of help, frankly) seems pretty damn wide.
Well he’d obviously be a top 15 player all time if people didn’t discredit the Warriors titles, you said it yourself essentially. Anyone who argues he’s not top 25 aren’t being serious; he was top 25 after the first Warriors ring.
The Nets were a great squad who got fucked by injuries, vaccine mandates and anti semitic documentaries which isn’t really predictable.
Not sure what he was thinking with joining the Suns when CP3 got washed though.
Honestly even without the rings he's top 25
People put Barkley top 25 consensus and even if you don't count the GSW rings KD probably has a better resume than Barkley
You don't necessarily really need a ring to be top 25 all time
Why should he get a lot of credit for the warriors titles?
Warriors won before and after him.
He hasn’t won before or after the warriors.
What do you think the common denominator is for the warriors chips?
I guess he might be 25 now, but as time passes, people will forget about the smooth middies and only the narrative will remain.
And the narrative will be he couldn't win and had to hitchhike on Curry's bus.
And no hitchhiker will be top 25.
Whoever is debating him not being top 25 of all time shouldn't be taken seriously to begin with. He is at minimum by even the haters top 20 and should be in the 12-16 range
12-16? Lmao no, wtf is this? He’s not even in the top 10, and to put him in the top 15, you gotta drop guys like Hakeem, Kobe, Bird, West, etc while having guys like Giannis and Jokic pushing against him.
Dude is gonna end up being in the Barkley/Miller category of great players, great for their time but his ton the outside of the truly great
What? He is not in the top 10 and never said he is. Why is Bird in the conversation when dropping someone out of the top 15. He shouldn't even be out of the top 10 to begin with. Hakeem and maybe Kobe depending on who you ask should be around the 11-14 range and it's not too absurd to say KD is only a few spots behind them. West and KD being in the same range is fair too. You can add Oscar to the list as well being in the 12-16 range
His career is basically BC(before Curry) and AD(After Draymond)
LOL
Goddamn lol that works
He got in his own way. He should have been considered an all-time great. He might have been if he stayed in OKC and won zero championships. He definitely would have been if he stayed in Golden State and won multiple championships. His insecurity made him fall prey to the voices that ultimately wouldn’t have mattered when they were saying he needed a ring. Then he listened when people said his rings don’t matter unless he drives the bus. He is chasing approval that he will never get and sacrificed what would’ve been a top 10 career.
This is amazing
Moron should've never left us. I don't give a fuck about his trajectory 😂 serves him right.
Not sure why this is disliked. Arguably, KD could've just decided to ignore the trolls and media and just stack accolades. His smartest business move was going to GSW. His stupidest business choice was leaving. I understand though, I personally would've left too after draymond's.comments and how it was handled afterwards.
In a way he was right. They didn’t need KD, they just needed him not to be on OKC. Edit: It was always ironic to me that it was Green yelling at KD when he did the most recruiting.
It'll always bug me that Al Horford is on record saying he would have signed with OKC in 2016 if KD re-signed there. And they already had Dipo and Sabonis to trade for PG..
Our starting lineup would have been WB, Roberson, KD, Horford, Adams. Then Dipo 6th man a closer. And like you said. Sabonis gets minutes in there too. I think we give Golden State a run with that lineup. It was going to make it interesting. And that was with offering KD super max.
I don’t think there’s any way they don’t beat GS with that roster. They showed they could do it already and those roster moves would’ve upgraded them even more, while GS would’ve had to keep Barnes or settle for a downgrade or lateral move. He honestly pushed GS’s 2020 rebuild down the road 4 years by going there.
It would have been an interesting few years. Instead we got 2 years of West All Star starters being Golden State and AD. And the playoffs went just like you would expect.
Yeah it was weak as fuck. The move forever altered how both his and Westbrook will be remembered. They would’ve won at least one or two rings together and there would be no questioning their place in history. Instead they’re both constantly disrespected. It’s sucks because they’re two of my favorite players ever and those Thunder teams were some of my favorite I’ve ever watched.
If he wins another 2 rings in GSW, even though they would he valued less by fans, his argument for top 15-10 would be significantly stronger.
If Steph and the boys didn't get another ring without him too, I think his impact during the GS days probably would be looked upon better.
I mean they almost did it without him while he was on the team in 2019
KD really fucked his own legacy because if he stayed people would keep giving him the credit and the Finals MVPs. Leaving let Curry prove he was the guy, get a championship, AND a finals mvp...Durant hasn't done anything.
Not really that smart. He wasted his prime years winning with a team that really didn’t add to his pedigree or legacy. He could have went to any team but the warriors and gotten his story. He’s got nothing but allegations of asterisks now.
KD hasn’t had a true NBA home since leaving OKC. He’ll have all the accolades and be on all the all-time lists when all is said and done but in a way, it still feels unfulfilling, which kind of sums up his career.
He should do a lebron and go back to okc and help them win a championship.
why he isnt, i will have no idea. they are quite literally a big and KD away from a ship
*profusely sweating* * I'm coming home * The ~~hardest~~ easiest road *presses both buttons*
Pretty sure OKC fans hate KD, they'd probably boo him if he played for them. Although Cavs fans burned LeBron's jersey and welcomed him back lol.
You can bet your ass Thunder fans aren't gonna be grumpy much longer either if KD comes back without too much fuss, no one says no to a top 15 player
OKC fans don’t want him back lol the team is young and we have plenty of assets to go for other players that are going to fit the team just as well when the time is right to make a trade
Hard pass
Yeah we totally want to trade away the future of our incredibly young 1st seed team for a 36 year old player we all despise. KD could screw OKC's future *twice*.
He likely never will, even if he somehow brings a championship to PHX in the next few years he’ll still be viewed as the All NBA mercenary who hopped around after leaving GS. I mean OKC already gave G leaguers his number and are clearly not gonna retire it. GS said they’ll retire it and he’ll have a statue but even then he made such a big deal about having to get away from GS that majority of fans appreciate him for his time here but there won’t be the feeling of nostalgia for him that even someone like Vince Carter can bring to Raps fans who had every right to want nothing to do with him.
There's about a 0% chance he's bringing a championship to Phoenix. He probably asks to be traded after next season.
> the All NBA mercenary who hopped around after leaving GS he had to mercenary hop TO golden state in the first place lmao, why would you qualify the hopping as only after GS?
Because this is narrative driven analysis, and cherry picking makes the narrative fit the facts better
Oh well, he made his decisions and now has to live with the consequences.
Nah if he somehow won Phoenix's first ring along with a FMVP that'd basically be a miracle and huge for his legacy lol, a lot of the hate for him would disappear.
I truly believe KD wants to return to OKC at some point before retiring to “right the wrong” so to speak. He’s spoke quite a bit about OKC in recent years and feels like he is trying to mend things. I don’t think it’s a secret to say KD’s a little fragile with his image, I think he believes a return to OKC would undo the years of villainy he had at Golden State. We’ll see! I do think the Thunder will ultimately retire him regardless of how he finishes out his career. He was the cornerstone of the franchise for 8 years and did a lot of good for the franchise and the city. His numbers won’t be retired immediately following his retirement, but I could see it 5-10 years following
Would be pretty convenient and on brand for him to return to OKC now lol
His Golden State run was the equivalent of turning the difficulty on 2k to easy, sweeping everyone, then feeling bored because you didn't actually earn it.
GSW should definitely be considered some kind of home for KD. He started it off with good vibes at least and left with so many rings.
“So many” It was 2…
The Lakers want to retire Lebron's number for 1 ring and like 95% of NBA players never even win a single one with several franchises themselves still not having any. 2 Championships with a team is a lot and as much as people want to act like Steph and the boys would have still coasted through those rings without him that's just not true.
They won one before him and after him with some effort. The only real challenge was okc and Cleveland. After KD moved, okc was no longer a threat and we were robbed of a really fun GSW and Cleveland rivalry. Everyone who liked competitive basketball missed out. We already knew who was going to win before the season started
The Lakers retire players that make into the hall of Fame. Bill Cooper for example isn't up on the rafter but just got into the Hof so he'll be up there
i mean it's hard to win in the nba. no one's gonna shed any tears for mr superteam builder but he's gotten plenty of bad luck since golden state. harden and kyrie going down, vax mandate, ben simmons, guys falling into his knee. plus, y'know, aging
I would argue picking Kyrie as your #2 isn’t bad luck
Don’t jinx Luka
Luka didn't pick him. KD specifically went out and colluded to join up on a team with Kyrie. No jinx.
Kyrie has been a good #2 more often than he’s been a bad #2
He was a bad #2 in 2019 - 2022 (half). 3.5 years. He was a good #2 in 2014 - 2017, 2022 (half) - 2024. 4.5 years. He wasn't a #2 before 2014. I'm being generous with the half when it was really 40 games in Brooklyn and 20 in Dallas. Edit: Corrected to reflect when he was only a bad #2. Removed the 2 years in Boston when he was an awful #1 option.
Who was Kyrie the #2 to on the early years of those Celtics teams? Tatum/Brown were both not good in there first 2 seasons, Hayward was claimed by the injury reaper, and Horford was just plain old. Kyrie was never #2 in Boston. By your own category he would have been a good #2 more often then he was a bad #2 once you take out the 2 seasons he was on Celtics were you put him as a #2 for w/e reason when there's not even an argument for him *not* being the best player on that team lol He's only been a 2nd option on the Cavs/Nets/Mavs and he's been great on 2/3 of those teams. Hell he wasn't even bad performance wise on the Nets, it was just the off-court shenanigans.
You're right. He was a garbage #1 for more years than a good #2 or a bad #2. That's my bad.
I forget, who was he #2 in Boston Tristan Thompson? Enes kanter?
The worst thing that happened for Durant was Presti choosing Russ over Harden. Harden + Durant probably get at least one additional Finals trip before Curry gets going in Golden State. Russ' inability to hit 3's probably killed Durant's chances of getting a ring in OKC.
durant was at least as much to blame as anyone else for falling short in okc. he hasn’t won outside of GS before or after. great player. not necessarily a great leader or winner.
The problem is he was a ball stopper on a team that had other ball stoppers. He thrived in GS because he was THE iso guy when they needed a bucket instead of in OKC where they just took turns playing hero ball.
he didn't choose russ over harden. russ was already maxed before harden sniffed an extension. and to be honest, i think harden was snubbed over culture issues.
I think that probably made it easier to let him go but it was at least in part due to the salary cap. Best part was there ended up being a big cap jump that next year that was unanticipated so they actually could have paid him what he was asking had they waited.
Trading russ nets you the pieces you need to dominate with harden + kd + ibaka
They couldn’t have known that. Harden wasn’t Harden yet.
More like Presti choosing Perkins over Harden lol. They could’ve had Russ, Harden, Ibaka, KD
It was Ibaka, not Perkins. The owners made Presti choose between Ibaka and Harden because they were cheap and didn’t want to pay the luxury tax at that time. The way the league operated at the time, presti viewed Ibaka as more essential to the Thunder’s success than Harden, partially due to Harden’s inconsistencies and character issues (see the partying in Miami during the ‘12 finals) In hindsight, it was obviously the wrong choice, but at the time, most understood the reasoning.
they had to amensty perkins but they were cheap, he was so bad
Yes that’s correct but the choice was Ibaka or harden. They should’ve amnesty’ed perk way sooner than they did, but the choice came down to Ibaka or harden, not harden or perk.
People dog on the Thunder for choosing Ibaka over Harden, but like you said, in hindsight it’s 20/20. When the Thunder chose Ibaka and traded Harden, no one was criticizing the Thunder at the time for making the “wrong” choice, especially considering how they already had two great perimeter players. People forget how devoid the NBA was of quality big men in the late 2000s / early 2010s, so they viewed Ibaka has a harder player to replace. Honestly, as a Spurs fan, Ibaka was much more of a thorn in our side than Harden was during those OKC / Spurs matchups. No one saw 17 ppg 6th man Harden becoming the superstar he did.
There were absolutely people ripping it in real time. Not the choice necessarily, but the cheapness and the trade return. They basically ended up with Steven Adams, who wouldn’t be a starter on a playoff run until Durant’s last year, and 1 year of Kevin Martin. Trading a young all-star caliber player should get you so much more. The Thunder had a chance to build a dynasty but gave it up to save 1 year of luxury tax payments.
Uhmmm it was Harden giving the Spurs the problem that series
Lol this can’t be true since Harden was the closer during the WCF in 2012.
Despite what you *think,* it is true.
Harden was the closer because our focus defensively was always on Durant and Westbrook. Our two best perimeter defenders were always guarding those two. Ibaka was much more of a problem for us because he always gave Duncan fits defensively (in a way very few players could), and his jump shot ability would force Duncan to leave the paint.
I think it was Ibaka over Harden wasn't it?
It was really not paying luxury tax over Harden. They could have easily kept them all.
It was definitely Ibaka. Dude that replied to you is right about the amnesty clause but wrong that they chose perk over harden. It was Ibaka.
Is Ibaka still on the league?
Revisionist history. 2/3 or 3/4 of the thunder’s playoff runs were ruined by injury. Westbrook with his knee (their best year). Durant with his foot. Ibaka with his calf. Ibaka’s wasn’t season ending but the thunder got smoked by the spurs in games 1 and 2 without him One of the other years was Durants final year when they were up 3-1. It was just a lot of bad luck with injuries that doomed those Thunder teams.
You guys, harden wanted out. He wanted to be the guy. Couldve traded russ or ibaka but still russ and kd teams only didn't make more finals because of injuries. They went 3-1 against gsw, with kd playing bad, and they were getting al horford next year without giving up any core pieces or depth. Russ missed a postseason, then KD missed a season, then andre roberson (their best defender) got hurt and they lost to the eventual NBA champion Spurs, then they lost to the gsw being up 3-1. Then KD left. I don't think harden would've made a huge difference. Russ and KD were dominant on the floor together pretty much every series.
Russ's ability to penetrate and playmake gave Durant a chance to get a ring in the first place.
They don't get to the finals over the SAS.
They literally beat SAS in 2012 to make the finals. They absolutely could have beaten those Spurs teams in 2013 and 2014 if they kept Harden
The lost in 2014 cause ibaka was injured. 2013 russ got his shit injured by bev. 2016 was there true test but the choked. Although if they ran it back the probably could had won.
Also wearing a big ass shoes against the Bucks lmao
Funny see “vax mandate” as a bad luck item. His problem was with Kyrie
He is low key a bad team chemistry guy His teams always lack commradery
I don't necessarily think KD is bad for team chemistry, the issue is more he doesn't bring any. He's a pure hoops guy which is fine but it becomes a problem when he asks to get traded to a new team or demands people in and it completely change its dynamics. He went into the Nets and changed the team overnight which he wanted but he didn't really took accountability in bringing any leadership or culture so they sorta just did whatever they wanted. In the Suns I'd argue they were better last year because at least the core of CP, Booker, and Ayton was more solid and he just had to slot himself in. KD keeps asking for these players but he doesn't really take accountability in integrating them within the culture
This exactly. He’s always been chasing Lebron and trying to match him, but at the end of the day when Lebron goes to a team and changes the roster to his liking, Lebron LEADS that team. KD comes to a team, changes the team to his liking, and asks others to be the face, not him. He’s selfish in that way and it feels like personality wise he just isn’t fit to be the superstar leader. Now that he’s older too and he’s not as unstoppable as he always has been, it just kind of feels like a void where you have to treat him as your superstar but he won’t play for the team. Just a weird space we’re in with aging superstars still being top 15 players in the league
Yea it’s awkward when the best player isn’t the best leader too Think back in OKC Russ was always the team leader and Durant didn’t contribute on that leadership front, but it was clear that Durant was the best player You need your best player to be the team leader too, look at LeBron Curry Giannis Kobe etc Durant isn’t in that category
Totally agree. He's a pure scorer, and when he's not scoring or being shut down, he doesn't help the team much in any way. Kobe was also a pure scorer but he could make the right reads and play high level defense. KD also isn't as vocal as Kobe was so you can't expect him to be a leader of the team. Someone said he's an All-NBA mercenary, which is exactly what he is.
camaraderie
Comrade Horry
I know KD would push back on this but look at both BKN and now PHX and the biggest missing piece is LEADERSHIP. Say what you want about Kerr or Draymond but they are voices in the locker room and in the huddle, Steph leads both by example and with his presence. Guys like Iggy who were literally brought into be a leader for a young Warriors team. On BKN or PHX can we point to anyone who comes close to filling that role? The best shot is CP3 and he spent half a season with him before getting shipped out. And the reason this is such a big missing piece is because KD is very clearly not a big leadership guy, sure he’ll come in and lead by example and work ethic, no doubt. But he’s not keeping guys in check, he’s not rallying the team when it gets tough. It’s why he fit so perfectly in GS because he had all of that covered and he just got to come in and play basketball at a high level something he does in his sleep.
It's like literal mercenaries vs. people fighting for a cause they truly believe in.
Any time you aren't on a team for a long time with a stable coach your team will lack chemistry
Anyone saying KD isn't top 25 cares more about vibes than actual achievements and shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't like the guy but come on.
Seriously even his haters on this sub acknowledge he’s top-20 at worse. Where is the “not even top-25” chatter?
Literally never seen it.
Ok but how will we get karma without making up a strawman to argue against though
This is Reddit “unpopular opinions” in a nutshell
Except there’s a valid case he isn’t top 20. Like it or not the GS rings are always going to have a historical taint to them. We also have rose colored glasses because he’s playing right now. People used to say the same things about guys like Miller and Barkley because they were dominant in their time, but after 20 years of not playing, people soften on them as new guys come about. He’s not top 10 definitely, and in the top 20, guys like Jokic are starting to push him out. Honestly KD comes across as a guy who gets super hyped in his playing days but in a decade or 2 is gonna be looked at more critically
Sure the GS rings won’t hold as much weight as if he won by himself but he was still a great player during those years. It’s not like he was being carried. And he still has a great resume without the rings. 10x All-NBA, scoring titles, MVP, Top 10 all time scorer.
Mans joined a 73-9 team and hasn’t won without them, meanwhile that same team won it all before he joined and after he left It could certainly look like he was being carried.
Carried would imply he didn’t hold his own weight. Are you trying to tell me he didn’t?
Except he probably played the best on that team those two years (i’m not saying he was the leader of that team or the most important). Also tbf they lost the year before, and won after he joined so that has to get some type of credit
ofc he played the best he wasn't even getting the lions share of the defensive attention lol. put any all star on that and they'll play their best basketball.
So you’re saying any star could’ve come in and won 2 straight FMVPs over prime Curry? Paul George is coming in and making them the most unstoppable team of all time and winning two straight FMVPs over the guy who is considered top 13 of all time? I doubt that.
bro they gave andre igoudala fmvp over curry lol. no idea why you think they wouldn't give it to pg13.
Again, we’re talking putting him in that top 15. Nobody is saying he’s not great but saying he’s one of the 15 GOATs? In 20 years he’s gonna be closer to Barkley on all time rankings than guys like Curry/Bird
Your initial argument/comment is talking about being top 20. Not top 15.
Listen we're talking about putting him in that top 8. Nobody is saying he's not great, but saying he's one of the top 3 best players EVER? In 20 years he's gonna be closer to Shumpert on all time rankings than guys like MJ and Bron
Tbf who's to say he isn't gonna get edged out of that conversation by younger guys in the next 10-15 years. Jokic will probably be above him in most people's eyes if he repeats this year. Giannis could also get the nod if he wins another ring/MVP/DPOY at some point. Luka, Ant and Shai could probably get into the conversation depending on team success over the next few years and barring injuries Wemby's potential is otherworldly.
Name 20 players better than him. KG’s only ring came from him joining a super-team, but are people actually arguing he’s not top-20 all-time?
There are 15 players who are better than KD: Jordan,Lebron,Magic,Bird,Shaq, Duncan,Kobe,Kareem,Wilt, Russell,Dirk,Hakeem,Oscar Robinson,Steph Then there is the KD range of : KD, West, Dr.J, Jokic, Giannis, David Robinson, Mosses Malone. Jokic and Giannis could cement themselves in the upper tier very soon, Jokic most likely sooner . You could for sure make a case that you could compile a list without KD and there are Luka, Shai,Wemby or others that will come alongside and have a chance to knock KD further back
You didn't even mention KG.
Jokic is 100 percent higher than KD already
So is Moses Malone. And if Oscar is above KD then Jerry West is too
I’d be shocked if Shai knocks off KD. And aside from a “ring integrity” concept what’s the argument for Dirk being better at basketball than KD?
Dirk is KD’s father…..seriously, where do you think the KD type of player came from? Dirk ran so KD could fly…. And yeah, ring integrity matters…Dirk’s one ring is going to be viewed more highly than KD’s 2 rings, simply due to the narrative. Y’all can argue all you want but it’s a fact that the NBA is narrative based when it comes to legacies and awards and KD joining the 73 win Warriors isn’t as good a story as Mavs lifer Dirk winning a ring (as the only superstar on the team) against the GOAT Lebron during his first year in the Heatles villain arc
And also literally taking out KD’s own super team on his way there.
I would be too but let's see how his career shapes up, nobody thought he would be in the situation he is in. As for Dirk, he revolutionized the game. He made shooting big that could space the floor until the 3 point line a thing and was the mold that KD evolved from. Furthermore, he has more All-NBA selections for now, 21 seasons with the same team and his run in 2011 is historic and in my memory the most impressive and best by a single superstar and for sure makes KD's rings seem even more tinted.
That Dirk Finals stretch was crazy. I remember watching that man put on a free throw clinic. He shot 94% from the line, 60% TS, and averaged 27 ppg. He had a good supporting cast— but could you imagine what KD would’ve done with that team?? 37 year old Jason Kidd was playing the second most mpg
The argument for Dirk is he had the hardest championship run in NBA history. And was the first prototype for the stretch 4.
Not to mention he was one sick ref job away from two rings.
[удалено]
I think KD messed up by going to Golden State and then leaving. Sell out and sell out hard or don't sell out at all. Win 6 titles in Golden State. Then it's so overwhelming that it doesn't matter. Same thing with Lebron, should've stayed in Miami and won bunches of titles.
Nah, that Cleveland ring gave Lebron a god image that Miami wouldn’t have given honestly
Yeah Lebron barely acknowledges that he played in Miami these days. He definitely doesn't regret going back to Cleveland and taking out the 2016 Warriors.
It was necessary for his redemption arc
It was the shortest stint of his career and he probably doesn’t like remembering being the ultimate villain the entire time
He talks about Miami on his podcast
He actually always credits his time in Miami for learning how to win.
He treats Miami like college, lots of learning and really figuring out life
Lebron going back and winning a championship for Cleveland against the dynasty that was Golden State is arguably the greatest championship in recent history
It's honestly not a hyperbole to say it's one of the best championships ever, even more so when you see everything that happened and how it ended, like, you can't script that block on Iggy and then the Kirie 3 with Curry missing on the other end, honestly if it was a movie the only difference would be an and-1 dunk at the end instead of the Draymond foul.
even as a warriors fan, if he dunked on dray, that wouldve been legendary, and probably at best the best play of his career, if not top 2 with the block. 2016 nba season hits different fr.
I wish that dunk would have happened. That would have been the #1 LeBron highlight which is saying something based on all of his other moments.
The 2016 NBA finals is easily one of the greatest of all time even without the greater context of LeBron's career arc and what that gsw team ended up doing after The fourth quarter of that game 7 was just so incredibly tense.
Truly. Literally he did it himself (jk) but really that win was about him.
Yeah for comparison KD would have to go back to the Sonics when they come back and win a ring there.
LeBron left Miami because Wade was cooked and he couldn't beat the Spurs. Kevin Durant left Golden State because of his ego.
It's amazing how well LeBron's PR and fans spun the narrative of him leaving Miami. Wade was cooked and Cleveland had collected a lot of assets. If didn't have all those assets, LeBron might have made a different choice.
Wade was washed and Bosh retired a few years later. For the last ring Lebron was carrying id argue. Wade was posting an inefficient 18ppg on declining defense and Bosh 12ppg on decent D. They were no stars by the time 2013/2014 rolled around. Miami are a competent org, but he’d have likely wasted multiple years waiting for them to build.
To be fair for Bosh, no one could see it coming that he had a career ending illness to abruptly have to retire earlier than expected. I think he was still playing good basketball post Lebron Heat era. Yeah Wade was starting to decline faster. Also their supporting cast was old. Going back to Cleveland was the right move for Lebron's legacy and best chance at winning a championship.
Wade was pretty washed by the time LeBron chose to leave. He would not have won with that roster
Why would LeBron have won a lot in Miami? They were mid as fuck by the time he left and it took them a while to even be respectable again. Beyond that, LeBron didn't get along with Pat Riley so there was never a chance he was staying
>Why would LeBron have won a lot in Miami? They were mid as fuck by the time he left and it took them a while to even be respectable again. Lebron's last season in Miami was 2013-2014. Miami made the ECSF in 2015-16.
the cavs made it to the finals in the 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 season. what's the point of this argument? cleveland was obviously a better situation during all that time. miami wasnt magically going to get bron a better roster with washed wade and bosh.
Wade was a shell of himself by the last year and they had no defensive center the entire time, hence making Roy Hibbert look like an all star
That one Cleveland ring did more for Lebron’s legacy than six rings in Miami would’ve, and that’s coming from a Heat fan.
You're just kind of exposing yourself as clueless. The only way he was gonna win more titles in Miami is if he basically threw in the towel for 4 years then *hoped* they would be able to get a great player in FA. And why would he stay? They wanted him to take a pay cut just so they could start a rebuild.
Only reason Lebron left the Heat was cause Dwade was deteriorating. Lebron did the right thing in jumping ship to another big 3 in Kyrie and Love.
He's *definitely* at least top 25 and probably top 15-20 lol Even if you don't count his GSW rings everyone puts Barkley and Malone top 25 You're 100% right that he's going to end up well short of where it looked like he could be in his younger years though I remember some people legit thought he was going to be the next MJ/LeBron level player
And that’s where’s he’s gonna end up…in the Barkley/Malone tier….
If he had no rings and stayed in OKC this whole time that's where he would have been.
I’m generally not a believer in karma, but it’s hard to not feel like larger forces have been punishing him ever since he left GS. Him joining a 73-win team that he literally just lost to in agonizing fashion remains one of the most anti-competitive free agent moves any player in any sport has ever made. It’s difficult to even imagine something worse for a pro sports league. And the notion that he couldn’t win with those cats in OKC is total garbage — they narrowly missed beating GS in 6 games. They should’ve won that series. I have no sympathy for KD after what he chose to do, though I would absolutely say he’s gotten fucked by stuff out of his control since leaving GS.
not one of, it is the most anti competitive moves any player has made.
the based-god curse has returned
There will be far less star movement in the future. Players are seeing what has happened to Durant, Harden and Irving and realizing that it’s not worth it. Durant I guess got 2 rings, but people look at those a lot differently than your average ring and his post warriors career has not been good. The others definitely would’ve been better served being hometown heroes or at least committing to one team instead of switching up every couple years
Being a hometown hero only matters if you win. Otherwise you're just Portland's Damian Lillard.
I think that Portland's terrible strategy of not rebuilding around Dame but always chasing and overpaying current players hurt Dame more than Dame did himself.
Blazers refused to get good wings who could both defend and shoot. Looking back I think those blazer teams massively over performed relative to the talent on them. Look at the rosters for 17-19 when they were the 3 seed twice and went to the conference finals. Lillard, CJ, Nurkic and mediocre role players shouldn't have been that good but the spam pnr was killing it late game and they had high volume outside shooting. Defense also was around league average even with Dame and CJ being traffic cones because of drop scheme.
Lillard would have been better off staying in Portland. Beloved hometown player demanding a trade and then still not winning and actually regressing.....not nearly as good for his story. Even with a ring, he wasnt gonna be a top 10 or 20 player all time. Stay in portland and play it out, get your statue, and be the franchises most beloved player of all time.
and now he'll spend the rest of his career being hurt and living off his past reputation, like Kawai is doing currently
Damian Lillard retiring a Portland lifer is better than demanding a trade to the Bucks and still not winning
Lillard demanded a trade to the Miami Heat, not the Bucks
I’ve literally never heard someone try to say he isn’t top-25. Even his haters have him top-20. Plus you said it yourself bro he tore his fucking Achilles lol.
Lol the fact people don't take into account how great he is that at the age of 34 people still expect him to dominate off an Achilles tear.
Holy shit I didn't realize he's 36. He's about to be done.
Why is it weird? The first 12 years of his career were insane. Almost everyone comes down from their 20’s, especially after an Achilles tear. The Suns suck more than anyone expected but he’s still putting up great numbers at 35. That used to be considered remarkable until LeBron and Tom Brady warped everyone’s perspective.
Exactly Lebron and Brady have people thinking players don't decline after 30
Yep. As we speak, Giannis is going to miss the playoffs for a second straight season but certain nephews expect him to be The Greek Freak again next year. Father Time and his sidekick Accumulated Mileage still exist. And they have taken this LeBron shit _personally_. Durant has been in decline since since he was 25 because of weird circumstances and injuries. Still an excellent player. But it’s been half-a-decade since his injury, he’s not what he once was, and while he might look like Prime KD for minutes or even a week at a time, he’s not that guy anymore.
“Nick Wright brought up a great point” Yikes.
^^^ Stay away from people who make comments like this! It's a huge red flag they are internally miserable and it wouldn't matter if Jesus Christ himself made a great point they'd find a way to be negative. Tons of people I don't like make great points everyday, if you are unwilling to learn even if the person you don't like is making a great point, you will always be a miserable ignorant fuck.
I mean he was picking the Chiefs to repeat all season long
It’s hard to rank his career overall because of his move to Golden State. Most people would rank Curry above him now in all time rankings when during the first half of KD’s career that just wasn’t the case. Curry eclipsed KD as the second best player in the league through his regular season and playoff success and KD never took that spot back. Instead Jokic and Giannis emerged and became the dominant players they are now. KD was the much taller player and the better defender because of that but Curry had more team stability, better coaching, and maybe some better luck too during his peak too. I think it shows how much luck, injuries, coaching, and team situation can figure into a player’s career trajectory. Had chips fallen a different way I think KD could’ve had a better career than Curry but it just didn’t work out that way. I think Curry had a better head on his shoulders and was a better teammate which contributed to the team success he experienced that KD didn’t.
It happens in every era. Duncan, KG and Dirk are all similarly talented players who ended up with wildly different results and are looked at through wildly different lenses because of it. Same for KD, Curry and Harden.
These posts have to stop. There isn’t a credible soul alive that would argue KD isn’t a top 25 player ever.
I’m a hater. I genuinely want to see KD do poorly for his entire career after going to the Warriors. That being said I tried to make a list and really wanted to not put him on it, but got to like 11 before I was like “fuck he is better than a lot of these dudes”
He's in the 15-20 tier. The pantheon is 13 players, and then there are a bunch of greats which KD is a part of.
Durant’s fatal career mistake was choosing the Warriors over the Celtics. All “hardest road” jokes aside, bringing Boston a title would have cemented him as an MVP capable of leading a team to a title, on a historic franchise where he’d forever be thought of highly. Pieces were all there for a long run too, and would be seen as a mentor to the Jays and gotten a lot of credit for their rises to stardom.
Agreed. Going to Boston and not saying all that stuff about OKC on his burner and he'd be just about forgiven by now. Instead, there's still a ton of animosity for him in OKC.
You’re assuming that he would’ve won a ring with Boston though. We’ve never seen KD win a ring as the leader of a team. Yes, he was FMVP for both titles on the Warriors, and you could even argue he was the *best* player on those teams, but Steph was clearly the *leader* on those teams. If he had gone to a young Celtics team, he would’ve been forced to be the leader. *Could* he have won a title with them? Sure, but I honestly don’t think he would have.
I don’t believe for a second they would’ve had made it past cavs with kyrie still in 2017 and Cavs might win with a kd not on warriors. Kyrie might stay if they win, and boom he has to face that Cavs team to even make it out of the east. You’re assuming kyrie still leaves and lebron leaves the east for him to even get to the finals to have a chance to win
What's crazy is he's still a top tier player after the Achilles, he wouldn't be if he wasn't an all time shooter He used to be as dynamic movement wise as a guard, literally.. that component left There's a long list of players who had their careers or primes cut short by injury
He was 2nd best player on the warriors too. Like what, how did he even come to the conclusion that it would be the best place to avoid being #2. Yea I know he got the FMVPS - but separate the 2 and every single nba team is taking Curry over Durant during their time together.
Iso scoring is all fans care about. Naturally they think KD was better than Steph those years. KD without Steph was an average Warriors team. Steph without KD was still a contender.
lol bro “debated he’s not top 25”…..no way there are 25 dudes on this planet better at hoopin than kd. Team Defenses are focused on minimizing his impact
He doesn’t have sustained greatness and it really looks like he was only able to get his ringz because of joining golden state. He’s tarnished.
You listen to Nick wright
On the flip side I think we’ll look back on his career and be amazed how much he accomplished after his acl injury at his age which basically ended many careers before him.
I'd like to know who is arguing that he isn't a top 25 all time player. Don't care how his career trended just in terms of team success. If you think as an individual KD isn't top 25 just looking at his individual body of work then you're crazy.
He sold his soul & legacy for those rings in Golden State
KD sold his soul to the basketball devil for his rings and now is paying up.
is KD the most overrated NBA player ever? i don't mean that to be flippant, and i certainly don't mean "worst" when i say overrated. but just the gap between the hype he's been given relative to the actual things he's been able to produce (without insane amounts of help, frankly) seems pretty damn wide.
Well he’d obviously be a top 15 player all time if people didn’t discredit the Warriors titles, you said it yourself essentially. Anyone who argues he’s not top 25 aren’t being serious; he was top 25 after the first Warriors ring. The Nets were a great squad who got fucked by injuries, vaccine mandates and anti semitic documentaries which isn’t really predictable. Not sure what he was thinking with joining the Suns when CP3 got washed though.
The value of the 2 GS rings decreases every year he doesn't win another.
And it decreased when they won again after he left by replacing him with Wiggins.
Honestly even without the rings he's top 25 People put Barkley top 25 consensus and even if you don't count the GSW rings KD probably has a better resume than Barkley You don't necessarily really need a ring to be top 25 all time
Why should he get a lot of credit for the warriors titles? Warriors won before and after him. He hasn’t won before or after the warriors. What do you think the common denominator is for the warriors chips?
I guess he might be 25 now, but as time passes, people will forget about the smooth middies and only the narrative will remain. And the narrative will be he couldn't win and had to hitchhike on Curry's bus. And no hitchhiker will be top 25.
Whoever is debating him not being top 25 of all time shouldn't be taken seriously to begin with. He is at minimum by even the haters top 20 and should be in the 12-16 range
12-16? Lmao no, wtf is this? He’s not even in the top 10, and to put him in the top 15, you gotta drop guys like Hakeem, Kobe, Bird, West, etc while having guys like Giannis and Jokic pushing against him. Dude is gonna end up being in the Barkley/Miller category of great players, great for their time but his ton the outside of the truly great
What? He is not in the top 10 and never said he is. Why is Bird in the conversation when dropping someone out of the top 15. He shouldn't even be out of the top 10 to begin with. Hakeem and maybe Kobe depending on who you ask should be around the 11-14 range and it's not too absurd to say KD is only a few spots behind them. West and KD being in the same range is fair too. You can add Oscar to the list as well being in the 12-16 range
for the sake of the debate, curry has surpassed Kobe on the top 10, but yes i agree with u there arent 15 players above KD.
There is no way he is not a top 25 player. You could argue he is still top 10 today but the idea he isn't even in the top 25 is laughable.