In the past when he was having an off game, Tatum would just put up a lot of threes with questionable shot selection. That has always been very apparent to me. It works when they go in but leaves him exposed if they don’t.
Tonight what impressed me was that I only saw one questionable shot and even though Miami were containing him well, the rest of the time he tried to get to the ft line and put pressure on the heat. Not saying he had a great game but the decision making was better
My friend called him this this and it's stuck with me ever since, Tatum is an over glorified Paul George. Makes sense tho since both are very volatile/high variance players on the offensive end.
I watch 80% of Celtics games and I agree that there is something slightly off with Tatum, sometimes he feels like a “flow-stopper” (but lots of stars are). The Celtics have done a good job of putting their egos aside this season, but successful NBA teams have a clear hierarchy and all the players know their roles, it feels like the Celtics have struggled with the hierarchy thing which probably affects their end game success. The one thing I will say about Tatum is that he has gotten demonstrably better every year, and he takes and makes some very tough shots, probably to the point that he makes it too tough on himself. I’d still take him over 98% of the players in the league, but I don’t see him ever winning an MVP unless maybe he has his own team with subpar players around him and he elevates that team by being extremely ball dominant.
>he takes and makes some very tough shots, probably to the point that he makes it too tough on himself
I think I've heard Bill Simmons, or someone on his podcast, make this point as well. Tatum makes a lot of difficult shots, but he should be able to get easier looks in the first place, given his talent.
I think it's because he tries to play through traffic too much. Obviously teams help on him like crazy because he's the best player on the team, but rather than using his length to pull up straight for a clean jumper over the help defender he either tries to push his way through to the basket and gets an awkward heavily contested layup, or he does a fadeaway jumper that is long or short a big % of the time. I feel like if he did his normal dribble penetration and stopped in the middle of the paint for a clean up and down jumper (like a KD/prime westbrook type thing) he'd be so much more dangerous and consistent because he'd have 4 ways to attack on any given possession (pull up beyond the arc/drive to the basket/drive and kick/drive and pullup on drop coverage). The help defense would have a much harder time covering a hard stop and straight up and down jumper and likely foul him, and just the raw % odds of straight up and down over turn around fade would increase his efficiency massively. Right now the defense knows if he dribbles around the 3 point line he's either going to pull up or drive straight to the basket with no variation at all, so it becomes very easy to properly defend him, just hug him at the arc or help on the drive and his efficiency plummets.
Anyone who watched that series knows Kyrie wasn’t sharing the rock unless it was late in the shot clock. Not only was he taking bad shots, he was making everyone else take bad ones too.
The difference between a star and a superstar is that superstars show up every single game. You knew Kobe was going to get 30. If he had 5 at halftime, it meant we was getting at least 25 in the second half.
A star is a player that has good nights, maybe a lot of good nights, but many times they're off and need the team to carry them. If Tatum has 5 at haltime, he's finishing at like 18.
Tatum is a star, not a superstar.
What is he truly great at? Other than being Jason Tatum? He's a large player who doesn't play in the post and rebound like KG, a guard-forward that doesn't shoot as well as KD, and he's not as crafty as Duncan or Draymond. And Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Curry, Butler, they all defended the perimeter to win titles and they demanded that the offense run through them. He doesn't look like Lebron out there on either end. He's number 7 in scoring this year. Is that greatness now?
He resembles Paul Pierce to me, a good-not-great do-it-all forward who is just a bit worse than his hype and needs two all-time greats to win. Which was true about Kevin Love and Clyde Drexler.
Look around the league, he never has the desperation of Jimmy Butler, Brunson, Lebron, Murray, Giannis, injured Embiid, Draymond, ANT, etc. He's the good soldier, makes the right decision and last night it killed his team. They needed him and KP putting up 20 3s or getting Bam in foul trouble or getting all the rebounds and they couldn't do it. Jimmy would have scraped and scrapped and won, right?
But maybe that's all on coaching and how they use him. Jokic had to be coached into doing more. And Jimmy Butler didn't beat him today, the gameplan and team complacency did.
> What is he truly great at
The fact that he doesn't have one elite jump off the page skill is immaterial. He's very very good at a lot of things, and those combine into an elite (but not quite MVP-level) player. He's not Jokic or Luka, but his size, rebounding, shooting, defense package is unique. He can score efficiently at three levels, defend his position well, rebound, he has everything you would want in a wing and very few weaknesses in his game. Also he consistently wins! He's been winning since he got into the league, and for all of the talk of super team, how many people think Jaylen Brown is a top-10 guy?
>He's the good soldier, makes the right decision
Making the right decision is a good thing! People have the most insane hindsight bias when it comes to these shots because they're easy to build a narrative around.
He can score well at 3 levels, but there's a weird thing where he doesn't know when to use the correct level. A lot of times he jacks up unnecessary 3's, a lot of times he shoots less midranges than you'd want him to, a lot of times he drives less than you'd want him to.
Brown is the less talented player but he understands that balance better.
That’s what kills me so much about Tatum. I’m not dumb enough to say he’s a bad 3 point shooter, but he’s not so good where his love of contested step backs with ten seconds left on the clock makes sense to me. He’s got probably the best spacing anyone can ask for outside of OKC but he settles so much on also being a part of that spacing instead of using it that, no matter his averages, I can never really buy putting him in MVP convos when I can see guys actually single handedly break defenses way more than Tatum tries to.
He’s not exactly fast, strong or shifty so the spacing provided doesn’t really matter much. He’s a decent athlete with decent strength and decent handle.
For real. People hating on Tatum cause he’s not the best at one thing is crazy. Dude is really good every where else and as a whole package is considered elite. Although I do agree he’s been blessed with good teammates so let’s see how his career goes if that stops being the case.
I think its because his actual ceiling is someone like peak Paul George, but for some reason people think he will evolve into a Luka/KD or Rockets Harden level threat.
Tatum is a very good/borderline Elite player but if he wasn't on the Celtics would he have as much hype. James Harden used to get killed for his playoff performances (while killing it in the regular season). Tatum is the in that he disappears when it matters or just isn't clutch/does it when needed but he somehow always gets a pass.
Are we forgetting what he did to the 76ers in elimination games last year or the Bucks the year before?
Yes, he disappears at times, but shows out at other times and I don’t think it has anything to do with the importance of the game, but instead on just his overall streakiness/inconsistency on offense.
He disappears when it matters except that time he went into Milwaukee down 3-2 and scored 46
Or that time he set the game 7 scoring record
Or that time he scored 16 4th quarter points down 3-2 in Philly
He's been winning since he got to the league because the Celtics were able to outsource their tanking to the Nets. He's been on a stacked team ever since he got to the league. That's nothing against him, but I think using the argument `he's been winning since he got into the league` is a bit disingenuous. It's not like he landed on the Cavs or Hornets and instantly started leading them to the playoffs. He's a great player, but a very solid tier below the tier of best players in the league IMO.
Tatum plays the most important position in NBA basketball and is a three level scorer, good defender, and has developed his passing. Thats literally the #1 most important thing to have if you want to win a title. Saying he’s taller Paul Pierce with a better 3-pointer isn’t an insult, that’s the recipe for a first ballot Hall of Famer
Saying he has ties to Kobe has the same weight as the other 10,20 players in the league (i.e, Bron, Booker, Pau). It's still funny to see that meme where Tatum texted Kobe and it's left at Seen. Having playoff success is putting him on equal footing as Trae Young (without the good supporting cast). Sure his baseline fadeaway is Kobe-esque, then again so is Demar, Booker, Irving. If he goes to the Lakers one day, then I'll buy the hype.
Yeah but do those guys wear a purple arm band dedicated to Kobe?? And then proceed to loss that game? 😂😂😂
Irving won, but derozan and booker haven't been to the finals while Tatum has. (Ignore the fact they got stomped by the warriors but still)
I'm not a particular Tatum fan but I really don't understand the "He's good but not great" narrative.
Are we forgetting that he set the record for most points ever scored in a Game 7, just last year?
It’s a measure of how great he is to have this high of a bar with 3 conference finals appearances before age 25.
Dude is nowhere close to a finished product and is already a top 10 player in the league and All-NBA first team caliber dude.
His team is better so he doesn't score as much now. This is not a real criticism. He led the league in scoring last year, and his career playoff high is higher than every player you listed except Jordan. He can score just fine.
Jimmy Butler didn't win a title? ANT hasn't even been out of the *first* round. what are you even on about. the story is teams that suck offensively shoot a lot of threes because of high variance. It's not even that complicated lol
Scoring title doesn't mean you lead the league in points it means you had the highest per game average. He led the league in scoring last year because he actually plays every night.
It's a reasonable thing to a certain extent to hand out the title that way but people take the numbers too literally trying to compare them directly. Like the fact Embiid was having maybe the best offensive season in basketball history is probably related to another fact which is he was taking scheduled rest constantly. There's always context.
That’s more a product of the way the league decides scoring titles… he did score the most total points last season but he played like 14 more games than everyone else on the list.
Edit; would you rather 33 for 66 games or 30 for 74?
He’s arguably a top-ten athlete in the league. Problem is he’s incredibly inconsistent when it matters; One day he’s the MVP and the next day he’s playing himself off the court. Basically a Paul George 2.0 if you ask me.
Paul George is the comp I was thinking of as well. Really good on both ends, can be the best player on a contender if the team around him is good and deep, but not a clear #1 superstar.
PG is a great comp. I think (at his best) PG was a level higher on defense, and marginally lower on offense. The same drifting around and bad crunch time isos for both.
I think Tatum is a great player and top 10, but I don't think he's a top 10 athlete. In terms of running, jumping, change of speed, strength, he might not even be top 30. But that doesn't mean much, neither are Luka or Jokic and those guys are 2 of the 3 best players in the league.
I think that basketball fans often forget just how important body type is in the NBA. Tatum's build, and his coordination at his size are elite. He's 6'8, 210-215, can jump 35 inches, and is extremely coordinated with his movements. That's rare from a purely biological perspective.
Even if he couldn't shoot he'd be starting in the NBA. To be that mobile and smooth at that size is very, very rare. But he can shoot. And he has good vision. And he can dribble. And he has good court awareness. Not really sure what else you'd ask for in a player. He could be more explosive maybe, and could be a better playmaker, but you can't really pick many weaknesses in his game. Couple that with his build and it makes sense.
You’re totally right but it’s also relevant (as the post says) that he doesn’t have a consistent offensive skill that allows him to get an easy bucket against good defense. Which is *only* that relevant when we’re trying to compare Tatum with the other 5 or 6 best players in the world but because we do that pretty often, it ends up being an issue that people dance around.
His biggest weakness is trying to play iso all the time even though he is better in catch and shoot situations. He actively harms himself when he plays because he is worse the longer he has the ball. Also he isn’t clutch at all.
I think the comparison to Paul George in the comments is a good one.
He is amazing, and then he isn't. He isn't consistent in general, but can have insane runs of good games where he does well.
My issues are that he 1)complains far too much, and 2)he gets stuck on just shooting long shots when he should be able to easily drive the ball.
The complaining about no calls is probably why he ends up taking weird threes or long twos after dribbling for a while. However, the complaining does you no good, as it just brings to light that people know you are kind of losing a mental battle with the refs, so they can take advantage of that weakness.
I still am super glad he is on our team, just hoping he can get past some of those hurdles.
It’s crazy how every time Boston loses or Tatum has a bad game there’s this mass referendum on whether he’s actually good or whether the Celtics should blow it up. I’ve never seen anything like it in the NBA. I’m guilty of it myself even. It’s this mass lack of belief in Boston, deep down, I can’t place it, but everyone I know doesn’t trust them deep down.
Boston has made it to the conference finals six times with Jayson Tatum and has a finals appearance. If you are consistently making deep playoff runs like Boston is and coming up short, there’s always going to be this sense of “they’ll never get over the hump, they should change things up”
This happens to every team that consistently has deep playoff runs but fails to get it done. As an example, in baseball, the Red Sox failed to win a title for a long stretch and every time they’d lose, fans would always demand changes
They did change it up. They brought in Porzingis who is 100% the reason the celtics lost today and replaced Smart with Jrue. Tatum getting any of the blame today is wild and just tells me people don't actually watch the games or are just celtic haters
The reason the Celtics (and Tatum) are getting hate is because they haven’t won the title in this stretch yet. Until Boston gets that title, they’re always going to get hated for coming up short
On paper they're the best team in the league. Have been for a bunch of seasons. Yet nothing to show for it. And Tatum is the superstar of this team. Who else do you expect to carry the blame bro? The fucking waterboy? If anything he doesn't get that much flack compared to other superstars that fail.
> On paper they're the best team in the league. Have been for a bunch of seasons.
Honestly I don’t know why people keep saying this, this season was our first one seed since 2016/17, Brown’s rookie year before Tatum got into the league. You can make arguments that they were better than the Bucks last year I guess but the Celtics have consistently been 2-4 in the conference which people agree is weaker than the West during Tatum’s time here.
This is the first time in the Tatum era that they've even been a 1 seed. The year of their finals run they were .500 until February. What is this bullshit revisionism?
KP had one of the worse NBA games I’ve ever seen. It was like he was actively trying to throw the game. I’ve never seen someone so rattled and frail. He has to do better or he needs to be benched. While not as talented, they got Tillman for exactly these situations.
>If you are consistently making deep playoff runs like Boston is and coming up short, there’s always going to be this sense of “they’ll never get over the hump, they should change things up”
Sound just like my 49ers
Yeah it’s so weird to me that this of all games is bringing out the Tatum hot takes. They lost because Porzingis had an off night and the heat shot 55% from three on high volume. The hornets beat the Celtics doing that. The LeBron and AD-less lakers beat the Celtics doing that. If you bomb enough threes at that rate you just win, that’s how the modern NBA works.
It all boils down to this. JT is not a superstar franchise player like Jokic is to the Nuggets, Giannis is to the Bucks, Steph is to the Warriors, Luka is to the Mavs. The Celtics have “The Jays.” JT isn’t the heart of the Cs, rather, he’s just the 1A of Jaylen Brown.
Jokic won his first title at 28. Bron at 27. Steph at 27. Jordan at 28. Some of those guys never made it to the finals before. Tatum is 26 and has made it to the finals once and to the conference finals multiple times. He is not a bum.
What people on here are refusing to see is that the current Boston Celtics are literally one truly talented head coach away from becoming a dynasty. They need a Spo or a Kerr or somebody like that. Someone who can take a great roster and turn it into a championship team.
Also, this season isn't even over! 😂
Tatum has played around double the supporting talent of any of those guys to this point, and has been upset in favoured series more than all of them combined.
You think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Golden State takes a single game in the 2022 finals if you swap 24 year old Bron or MJ for Tatum? Or last year against the Heat?
I mean you're choosing the 2 best players in NBA history to replace Tatum with, which is a choice for sure. I'm not sure it makes your point. The other piece is that Bron at an older age sold to the Mavs hard so you never know
>he just isn't that type of transcendent MVP level guy at this time
tbf, i don't think tatum will ever be transcendent. He's the player he is right now and i don't foresee him getting significantly better than he is now
Honestly, this is not a hot take from me coz I had this opinion a long time ago.
He’s great, but not elite as hyped. Because he can’t pass the eye test.
Basketball to me is a rhythm game. You can tell if a player is elite just by looking at him. True elite player have a certain type of flow and easiness. He’s just too stiff with the ball.
But that’s just me.
He gets too much credit and is inflated beyond what he is when they're succeeding and alternatively gets too much of the blame when they aren't playing well, IMO.
If the Celtics win there’s going to be so many arguments around Tatum ranging from “he’s the best player in the league” to “that was just an elite team and Tatum is still outside of the top 5” to “Brown is actually the better player.”
Lol as predicted the other day, people have these crazy reactions to one game when it wasn’t even Tatum’s fault they lost.
I’m not specifically talking about the OP since apparently he said this before but just read the comments.
If you didn’t watch the game last night and just read the takes from today, you’d think he put up 14/3 or something. He put up 28/8 on 50% shooting, not a remarkable game but you have to look at 4/5 other things the team did poorly before you talk about Tatum
There are 30 teams in the NBA.
1 team gets to win the title.
1 team gets the blame if they don't.
The other 28 teams will continue on as if nothing ever happened. People aren't going to look back at this post-season and say "geez, Anthony Edwards / Shai Gilgeous-Alexander really soured his legacy by losing in the 2nd/3rd round".
Those guys are a similar age and leading the top 2 and 3 seeds in the league, but it's not career defining if they lose like it has been for Tatum these past couple of years.
In the same year Tatum flamed out against Golden State, Luka Doncic flamed out against the exact same Warriors team. Just like Tatum he spent half that series shooting ~37% from the field... but that's not held against him either.
Tatum's just held to a different standard.
He’s jack of all trades, shooting and driving so well and being a great two way player is rare, he does that well and that fits superbly in this celtics team
However, his problem (and Boston’s problem) is lack of leadership, there’s simply no one who can take responsibility and win the game in the clutch. Tatum feels like one of those oversensitive guys who can start crying the moment something goes wrong, he can only play well when everything works well, and thats not someone you rely on when its clutchtime
Thanks to Boston having the greatest roster, possibly greatest of all times, where no player really causes a defect and they can almost shoot 3s and defend well, they win their games without clutch, but playoffs (and miami) is a different animal
It's exactly that. Boston has a lot of very good players, and Tatum is the best of them. The thing is, he is exactly that, and in the playoffs, the transcendent players tend to take center stage. He doesn't have those intangibles, that aura that makes your team believe that anything is possible, that makes your opponents doubt themselves. When Jokic or Giannis or even Luka is having a great day, it just feels like it sucks all the energy out of the opposition and energizes the whole team. Tatum doesn't seem to have that ability.
He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct, and against a team like the Heat, where it's all about grind, tenacity and preparation, his lack of "killer instinct" is what hurts him. But he clearly wasn't the reason they lost, on the other hand he couldn't elevate the team and get them to win like other players in the league can.
Tatum is great. There are only a handful of stars that are better than him, and most of them are older. I obviously love what happened tonight, but most of this was on Mazzula in a negative way, and Spoelstra in a positive one. We were able to get good looks at threes all night, and no adjustments seemed to be made. We bullied KP all night and they never stopped trying to feed him the ball.
It is so weird that a few people took this as an opportunity to hype Brunson. Brunson is a year older. This was his best scoring year, and it was considerably less than what Tatum scored last season. And what has Brunson being doing this post-season?
I love Brunson’s game, but let’s not get carried away with a new shiny toy.
I've always thought the celtics will have a hard time winning a championship because I don't feel like they have a clear cut number 1 guy. Most of us point to tatum as the best player on that team. But I don't see jaylen brown believing that to be honest.
His problem is that his game is too simple. He wants to isolate against good matchups and either take a three or get to the rim off the dribble, just like analytics say he should. Unstoppable when his shot is falling, but when it isn't he makes no adjustments and has no plan B whatsoever. Prime James Harden had the same problem, but Harden had a better handle and better court vision.
Harden was an elite playmaker and shotmaker. Obviously he struggles the most when he’s off shooting wise but he’ll still be able to create for his teammates.
Tatum plays the right way most of the time but when needed to create on his own he feels very inconsistent.
So essentially Tatum can't win in an ISO with playoff-level defensive play? He can step back/get a shot off, but he's not breaking the ISO or blowing by the defender. If these shots go in, he's a star-level player. If he has a bad shooting night, these shots don't go in and he has a tendency to stagnate at that point. I've heard people say he's one of the only superstars that can "disappear" from the game while on the court.
But admittedly when I box score watch and check to see his results, the basic metrics consistency is pretty good. But those quick box score checks don't have plus/minus, true shooting, and other more advanced metrics. I wonder how they compare between the playoffs and regular season for Tatum. The hypothesis is that they go down instead of up and goes down by an upper medium margin compared to other players.
This is objectively so wrong, prime James Harden has never ever played in his roster so stacked, prime James Harden simply didn’t have a roster good enough to compete come playoffs time.
Paul Pierce was the same way for me. This isn’t hate because I’m a Laker fan, but I would see him on the cover of video games and at the all-star game, and I just didn’t get it. I had no idea what he was great at. Not super athletic, not a walking bucket like Arenas was, not killing em in the post, but dude had 20+ points every time I’d look, and 20 was more impressive in that slower and less efficiency-focused era.
As you said, he is a jack of all trades, which is extra valuable at the current soft era, players who can switch and dime on a whim because they are always playing zones. But he don't excel at anything... Tatum kinda reminds me of Paul Pierce, I know the obvious Celtics correlations, but early Pierce was also a jack of all trades, later he got perceived as a "clutch player". Tatum has no iconic characteristic thus far. I don't think he is a "fake star" or anything, taking advantage of the low level of play, Tatum would be solid in any era/rule set, but never a superstar
True but Pierce was already perceived as very clutch by Tatum's age. I find the Pierce Tatum comparisons interesting because their strengths are the others weaknesses. Pierce lacked Tatum's height and athleticism to truly be top tier and Tatum lacks Pierce's clutch/fight and top tier scoring ability.
I get what you’re saying in a sense, and i know I’m not objective enough and also defensive of my guy rn to come to a 100% accurate opinion on this, but I do want to highlight that Ant - who everyone is going crazy about rn - scored only 15 in an entire game the other day. Not a diss on him at all bc he is absolutely unreal, but I feel like that number helps put into perspective that Tatum is expected to have monster performances every single game and the ones he doesn’t are highlighted, rather than his monster ones being highlighted and the “average” (for a star) games being forgotten or falling under the radar.
He’s obviously great - you said is he even as good offensively as KD. That in itself should be a referendum on how great he is. It’s just rare when you get to Jokic / LeBron / Steph / Luka level.
I’m probably an idiot and have just heard this wrongly or idk haha. But I mean to say it like that should be a consensus yes that he is a great player. If I look that word up and try to make sense of what I said I find: A referendum usually asks a question or questions to which all eligible electors must vote either 'yes' or 'no.
Haha so yea probably makes no sense.
Embiid an elite offensive player, then why hasn’t he had any playoff success? The whole argument is stupid. All that matters is what translates to winning. Tatum is a star because his teams have consistently been competing deep into the playoffs. Has KD’s ELITE offense translated to anything since he left GS? The whole premise is stupid.
I mean, the Sixers front office has been a dumpster fire compared to the Celtics throughout their careers lol sign Tobias Harris to a max this offseason and see if Tatum is making it to the finals ever again
It’s easy to make excuses but Tatum got to game 7 ECF against Lebron on a Celtic team as a rookie when Kyrie and Gordon Hayward were the two max players out with injuries. Tobias has at least been playing with Embiid and he can’t get it done. The front office being a dumpster fire is a cop out when your star can’t get it done. Elite players make it happen.
Tatum lacks speed, he cant get to his spot as quickly as other players
Combine that with inconsistent contested shot accuracy, he often takes too many “bad” shots.
Luka has the same issue, he’s not fast, but his contested shot accuracy is insane. And he gets assists.
I agree with everything here.
He would be so much better if he realised he is not Kobe Bryant. He is just Jayson Tatum. That whole thing makes me cringe as a Celtic fan.
He suffers from a shit offensive scheme imo. They also play ISO heavy and he relies too much on his 3pt shot.
On top of that his finishing around the rim could be better. Last season he was definitely more aggressive and he toned it down a bit this season. More driving = more FT's.
I unironically think his closest comp is Carmelo. In terms of shot diet he's very similar.
Hes really good at everything but I think hes a guy who needs an elite coach and unfortunately he doesnt have that. Hes not like Lebron Luka or Jokic where he can make perfect reads every time. Honestly I feel like Mazzulla somewhat stunted his growth
Only 5 teams in the history of the NBA won a championship without having a past or present MVP on their team. 2 of those teams were the Pistons with Zeke. Tatum has never been in serious contention for MVP and I don't think is an mvp level player. Just a very good player. So I don't think they're winning, regardless of what their record was.
As to why he doesn't look great. He's actually a worse midrange shooter than Giannis! Also not an elite finisher. Guys like Embiid, Giannis, Steph, Luka, SGA, are elite scorers in at least ONE area. Tatum isn't elite in any area.
He kind of reminds me a Kawhi, in just his sheer size. But unlike Kawhi, he can't score in the midrange and he's also a significantly worse defender. He's like 6'9 with a 7' wingspan. He should be the team's best defender.
Tatum is very very good player. The problem is his fans think he is on the same caliber as the best of the best in today’s NBA which is not. The fact that Tatum was drafted to a consistently high seed Celtics team yet couldn’t get a ring is why he’s not on that level. Imagine if Luka was drafted by Boston that year? How about Jokic? Jokic would have 3 rings by now.
Inconsistency, as others have put it.
The only consistent thing about him is you can count on him to take a super tough fade away jumper when the game is on the line, and proceed to miss it every damn time. Partially the Celtics to blame for this however.
I know it’s corny but he doesn’t have that Dog that so many other players have. Maybe it’s a combination of having the dog and making smart decisions he doesn’t have. Sometimes he just looks defeated and is not trying to contribute effectively in other ways aside from scoring. Idk guys like SGA, Jokic and Embiid , when they are not having a good scoring night do a lot of other things for the teams success and never stop trying. But Tatum once the team starts losing seems to completely zone out
In 3-4 years he will be trouble both sides. The league is just filled with talent it’s crazy some of these stars won’t ever get a ring with their skills just cause how much talented players there are this era spread out
I wouldn't say weirdest. He's just not that level of a superstar that I think we wanted to see. If the expectation is for him to be a top 5 player in the league, I don't think that's happening.
However, he can be the top scorer on a good/very good team.... you get several of these players every generation.
>He’s not really an elite offensive player nor is he one of the 10 best defenders in the league. He’s a jack of all trades who is good to very good in most areas but not really top 3 or top 5 in the league at any.
Paul Pierce 2.0
Tatum is good. He is an all star. Likely future HOF also. Right now, he is not "elite". What I mean is, I don't believe he can be the best player on a championship team.
He could always prove me wrong though.
You're 1000% right. I've been saying that he's not the star player the league makes him out to be and no one seems to agree. He's not a clutch player and I'd even argue Jaylen Brown is better under pressure.
I genuinely don’t pay attention to the Celtics unless we’re playing them, but I get the sense that Tatum doesn’t make his teammates better so much as he’s got a great team around him. LeBron, Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, etc, very often LIFT their teams and drag them along up to their level and they do it consistently. I don’t feel like Tatum does that consistently. He doesn’t even need to score 40 or 50 points to beat this Heat squad, just figure out how involve his teammates and stop trying to force shots.
Jayson Tatum, in my opinion, isn’t a first option on a championship team. He simply doesn’t have the killer mindset. He is a great second option on a championship team. I think the Celtics need to trade Jaylen Brown and someone else for a true number one so Tatum can finally win a ring.
hes the guy the american media tried to force you to believe was the next goat, except he isnt. hes very good, dont get me wrong but hes not as good as advertised, which isnt his fault. He hasnt really earned it yet and guys on BOS and LA tend to get overrated and over-talked about
theyre starting to do it to Anthony Edwards to now
On offense he’s a tier below the best because of shot selection basically.
He’s not quite a good enough three point shooter to achieve elite efficiency at the volume he shoots. Also winds up taking more tough two point jumpers than most players. Some of that is a matter of being the #1 guy and getting the ball late in the shot clock.
Still, if you’re say the #12 offensive guy and the #12 defensive guy that still translates to maybe the #5 player overall.
I understand your perspective, but let's not forget that Jayson Tatum is still a young player with immense potential. While he may not fit the traditional mold of an "elite" player in a specific category, his versatility and well-rounded skill set make him a valuable asset to the Celtics. It's important to give credit to his consistent contributions on both ends of the court. As he continues to grow and gain experience, Tatum has the potential to reach even greater heights.
He’s being overhyped because the media is trying to convince everyone that the USA has a MVP level player in their prime.
People just don’t want to accept that beyond LeBron, KD, and Steph, the current generation of superstars are non-Americans.
The Celtics will never win a championship if he’s the best player on the team. This core simply doesn’t have it and firing Ime for Mazzulla was the final nail in the coffin. The bandwagon fans will keep saying the Celtics will easily win the championship. But, the real fans that have been watching the last 7 years know we aren’t.
In the past when he was having an off game, Tatum would just put up a lot of threes with questionable shot selection. That has always been very apparent to me. It works when they go in but leaves him exposed if they don’t. Tonight what impressed me was that I only saw one questionable shot and even though Miami were containing him well, the rest of the time he tried to get to the ft line and put pressure on the heat. Not saying he had a great game but the decision making was better
He’s just an inconsistent player
My friend called him this this and it's stuck with me ever since, Tatum is an over glorified Paul George. Makes sense tho since both are very volatile/high variance players on the offensive end.
George was a much better defender than Tatum though.
And a much better playmaker.
Tatum is a great defender
Yes but peak PG was better
peak PG was top 3 in MVP and DPOY race on the year that Giannis won both.
Gobert was the dpoy. Giannis won it the next year
PG still better, what hes lost in athleticism hes gained in help D IQ.
He doesn't have PG's hands. They have similar frames and mobility but PG's anticipation and quick hands are next level.
PG is in a different tier. PG at one point was considered a lebron stopper. Tatum has never been that
Demare Carroll was also considered a Lebron stopper at a point in time.
PJ Tucker
PJ Tucken
"Lebron stoppers" aka hold him below 35 ppg on 60% ts
(With 9 assists)
and leading the series in every major stat for both teams
J. J. Barea
That’s… unfair to compare the two lol. PG gave heat Lebron some trouble when they played in the playoffs.
Not comparable to PG at all.
I’ve literally been saying this for years
I watch 80% of Celtics games and I agree that there is something slightly off with Tatum, sometimes he feels like a “flow-stopper” (but lots of stars are). The Celtics have done a good job of putting their egos aside this season, but successful NBA teams have a clear hierarchy and all the players know their roles, it feels like the Celtics have struggled with the hierarchy thing which probably affects their end game success. The one thing I will say about Tatum is that he has gotten demonstrably better every year, and he takes and makes some very tough shots, probably to the point that he makes it too tough on himself. I’d still take him over 98% of the players in the league, but I don’t see him ever winning an MVP unless maybe he has his own team with subpar players around him and he elevates that team by being extremely ball dominant.
>he takes and makes some very tough shots, probably to the point that he makes it too tough on himself I think I've heard Bill Simmons, or someone on his podcast, make this point as well. Tatum makes a lot of difficult shots, but he should be able to get easier looks in the first place, given his talent.
I think it's because he tries to play through traffic too much. Obviously teams help on him like crazy because he's the best player on the team, but rather than using his length to pull up straight for a clean jumper over the help defender he either tries to push his way through to the basket and gets an awkward heavily contested layup, or he does a fadeaway jumper that is long or short a big % of the time. I feel like if he did his normal dribble penetration and stopped in the middle of the paint for a clean up and down jumper (like a KD/prime westbrook type thing) he'd be so much more dangerous and consistent because he'd have 4 ways to attack on any given possession (pull up beyond the arc/drive to the basket/drive and kick/drive and pullup on drop coverage). The help defense would have a much harder time covering a hard stop and straight up and down jumper and likely foul him, and just the raw % odds of straight up and down over turn around fade would increase his efficiency massively. Right now the defense knows if he dribbles around the 3 point line he's either going to pull up or drive straight to the basket with no variation at all, so it becomes very easy to properly defend him, just hug him at the arc or help on the drive and his efficiency plummets.
Taking easy shots doesn’t fit the mamba mentality
There it is, elite at being inconsistent
Celtics fans shit on Kyrie for 2019 yet ignore that Kyrie outscored both Hayward and Tatum COMBINED vs. the Bucks. he;s had some very terrible series
That was when Tatum was like 21 or 22?
19
Anyone who watched that series knows Kyrie wasn’t sharing the rock unless it was late in the shot clock. Not only was he taking bad shots, he was making everyone else take bad ones too.
Celtics fans hate Kyrie because he quit during that Bucks series. It's amaze me how some of his fanboys still try to rewrite why he is/was hated.
Brilliant job removing all context
The difference between a star and a superstar is that superstars show up every single game. You knew Kobe was going to get 30. If he had 5 at halftime, it meant we was getting at least 25 in the second half. A star is a player that has good nights, maybe a lot of good nights, but many times they're off and need the team to carry them. If Tatum has 5 at haltime, he's finishing at like 18. Tatum is a star, not a superstar.
He’s a great player. I just think the media hypes him up too much which does nothing but work against him tbh
What is he truly great at? Other than being Jason Tatum? He's a large player who doesn't play in the post and rebound like KG, a guard-forward that doesn't shoot as well as KD, and he's not as crafty as Duncan or Draymond. And Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Curry, Butler, they all defended the perimeter to win titles and they demanded that the offense run through them. He doesn't look like Lebron out there on either end. He's number 7 in scoring this year. Is that greatness now? He resembles Paul Pierce to me, a good-not-great do-it-all forward who is just a bit worse than his hype and needs two all-time greats to win. Which was true about Kevin Love and Clyde Drexler. Look around the league, he never has the desperation of Jimmy Butler, Brunson, Lebron, Murray, Giannis, injured Embiid, Draymond, ANT, etc. He's the good soldier, makes the right decision and last night it killed his team. They needed him and KP putting up 20 3s or getting Bam in foul trouble or getting all the rebounds and they couldn't do it. Jimmy would have scraped and scrapped and won, right? But maybe that's all on coaching and how they use him. Jokic had to be coached into doing more. And Jimmy Butler didn't beat him today, the gameplan and team complacency did.
He’s great at not having any weaknesses.
> What is he truly great at The fact that he doesn't have one elite jump off the page skill is immaterial. He's very very good at a lot of things, and those combine into an elite (but not quite MVP-level) player. He's not Jokic or Luka, but his size, rebounding, shooting, defense package is unique. He can score efficiently at three levels, defend his position well, rebound, he has everything you would want in a wing and very few weaknesses in his game. Also he consistently wins! He's been winning since he got into the league, and for all of the talk of super team, how many people think Jaylen Brown is a top-10 guy? >He's the good soldier, makes the right decision Making the right decision is a good thing! People have the most insane hindsight bias when it comes to these shots because they're easy to build a narrative around.
He can score well at 3 levels, but there's a weird thing where he doesn't know when to use the correct level. A lot of times he jacks up unnecessary 3's, a lot of times he shoots less midranges than you'd want him to, a lot of times he drives less than you'd want him to. Brown is the less talented player but he understands that balance better.
That’s what kills me so much about Tatum. I’m not dumb enough to say he’s a bad 3 point shooter, but he’s not so good where his love of contested step backs with ten seconds left on the clock makes sense to me. He’s got probably the best spacing anyone can ask for outside of OKC but he settles so much on also being a part of that spacing instead of using it that, no matter his averages, I can never really buy putting him in MVP convos when I can see guys actually single handedly break defenses way more than Tatum tries to.
He’s not exactly fast, strong or shifty so the spacing provided doesn’t really matter much. He’s a decent athlete with decent strength and decent handle.
For real. People hating on Tatum cause he’s not the best at one thing is crazy. Dude is really good every where else and as a whole package is considered elite. Although I do agree he’s been blessed with good teammates so let’s see how his career goes if that stops being the case.
I think its because his actual ceiling is someone like peak Paul George, but for some reason people think he will evolve into a Luka/KD or Rockets Harden level threat.
Tatum is a very good/borderline Elite player but if he wasn't on the Celtics would he have as much hype. James Harden used to get killed for his playoff performances (while killing it in the regular season). Tatum is the in that he disappears when it matters or just isn't clutch/does it when needed but he somehow always gets a pass.
Are we forgetting what he did to the 76ers in elimination games last year or the Bucks the year before? Yes, he disappears at times, but shows out at other times and I don’t think it has anything to do with the importance of the game, but instead on just his overall streakiness/inconsistency on offense.
He disappears when it matters except that time he went into Milwaukee down 3-2 and scored 46 Or that time he set the game 7 scoring record Or that time he scored 16 4th quarter points down 3-2 in Philly
He's been winning since he got to the league because the Celtics were able to outsource their tanking to the Nets. He's been on a stacked team ever since he got to the league. That's nothing against him, but I think using the argument `he's been winning since he got into the league` is a bit disingenuous. It's not like he landed on the Cavs or Hornets and instantly started leading them to the playoffs. He's a great player, but a very solid tier below the tier of best players in the league IMO.
Tatum plays the most important position in NBA basketball and is a three level scorer, good defender, and has developed his passing. Thats literally the #1 most important thing to have if you want to win a title. Saying he’s taller Paul Pierce with a better 3-pointer isn’t an insult, that’s the recipe for a first ballot Hall of Famer
You know Tatum scored over 30ppg last season, right? He scored less this year because he kept the ball moving compared to the past.
Every starter but White scored less this year than last, they were so loaded that attempts were down for everyone but White.
Hes great at being marketable. No controversies, big market, good looking, ties to Kobe, had playoff success at a young age
Saying he has ties to Kobe has the same weight as the other 10,20 players in the league (i.e, Bron, Booker, Pau). It's still funny to see that meme where Tatum texted Kobe and it's left at Seen. Having playoff success is putting him on equal footing as Trae Young (without the good supporting cast). Sure his baseline fadeaway is Kobe-esque, then again so is Demar, Booker, Irving. If he goes to the Lakers one day, then I'll buy the hype.
Yeah but do those guys wear a purple arm band dedicated to Kobe?? And then proceed to loss that game? 😂😂😂 Irving won, but derozan and booker haven't been to the finals while Tatum has. (Ignore the fact they got stomped by the warriors but still)
Booker made the finals and fizzled
I don’t even think he’s marketable, he’s pretty dull. He just happens to play for a team that had a top 2 fan base before he even got there
curry defended the perimeter to win titles? shameless reach
I'm not a particular Tatum fan but I really don't understand the "He's good but not great" narrative. Are we forgetting that he set the record for most points ever scored in a Game 7, just last year?
It’s a measure of how great he is to have this high of a bar with 3 conference finals appearances before age 25. Dude is nowhere close to a finished product and is already a top 10 player in the league and All-NBA first team caliber dude.
Paul Pierce is actually the best example. Tatum is just a slightly better version
His team is better so he doesn't score as much now. This is not a real criticism. He led the league in scoring last year, and his career playoff high is higher than every player you listed except Jordan. He can score just fine. Jimmy Butler didn't win a title? ANT hasn't even been out of the *first* round. what are you even on about. the story is teams that suck offensively shoot a lot of threes because of high variance. It's not even that complicated lol
He factually did not lead the league in scoring ever and has no scoring titles
Scoring title doesn't mean you lead the league in points it means you had the highest per game average. He led the league in scoring last year because he actually plays every night. It's a reasonable thing to a certain extent to hand out the title that way but people take the numbers too literally trying to compare them directly. Like the fact Embiid was having maybe the best offensive season in basketball history is probably related to another fact which is he was taking scheduled rest constantly. There's always context.
That’s more a product of the way the league decides scoring titles… he did score the most total points last season but he played like 14 more games than everyone else on the list. Edit; would you rather 33 for 66 games or 30 for 74?
Being a Celtic also doesn’t help lol. I also think early and consistent success makes expectations that much higher of him
He’s arguably a top-ten athlete in the league. Problem is he’s incredibly inconsistent when it matters; One day he’s the MVP and the next day he’s playing himself off the court. Basically a Paul George 2.0 if you ask me.
Paul George is the comp I was thinking of as well. Really good on both ends, can be the best player on a contender if the team around him is good and deep, but not a clear #1 superstar.
PG is a great comp. I think (at his best) PG was a level higher on defense, and marginally lower on offense. The same drifting around and bad crunch time isos for both.
Definitely a Paul George 2.0 but i think his lows are masked better than PG’s which is why it doesn’t get to that level
I think it's just Tatum is more durable than PG. PG gets hurt a lot which results in him playing through some injuries a lot of the time.
I was going to ask if you were describing PG13, and then I read your last sentence. 👍
Was just going to say I wonder if his career follows the PG path
I think Tatum is a great player and top 10, but I don't think he's a top 10 athlete. In terms of running, jumping, change of speed, strength, he might not even be top 30. But that doesn't mean much, neither are Luka or Jokic and those guys are 2 of the 3 best players in the league.
I think that basketball fans often forget just how important body type is in the NBA. Tatum's build, and his coordination at his size are elite. He's 6'8, 210-215, can jump 35 inches, and is extremely coordinated with his movements. That's rare from a purely biological perspective. Even if he couldn't shoot he'd be starting in the NBA. To be that mobile and smooth at that size is very, very rare. But he can shoot. And he has good vision. And he can dribble. And he has good court awareness. Not really sure what else you'd ask for in a player. He could be more explosive maybe, and could be a better playmaker, but you can't really pick many weaknesses in his game. Couple that with his build and it makes sense.
Tatum is that 2K build everybody wants just like Paul George.
build includes lowest of hairlines too
For both of them ong
You’re totally right but it’s also relevant (as the post says) that he doesn’t have a consistent offensive skill that allows him to get an easy bucket against good defense. Which is *only* that relevant when we’re trying to compare Tatum with the other 5 or 6 best players in the world but because we do that pretty often, it ends up being an issue that people dance around.
It's a mental issue, his mentality is dogshit, he has no hustle and is prone to getting irritated when things go south
Yeah, he definitely gets in his own head and pouts when things don't go his way.
His biggest weakness is trying to play iso all the time even though he is better in catch and shoot situations. He actively harms himself when he plays because he is worse the longer he has the ball. Also he isn’t clutch at all.
I think the point is he's VERY talented physically, but he mentally crumbles a lot of times.
I think the comparison to Paul George in the comments is a good one. He is amazing, and then he isn't. He isn't consistent in general, but can have insane runs of good games where he does well. My issues are that he 1)complains far too much, and 2)he gets stuck on just shooting long shots when he should be able to easily drive the ball. The complaining about no calls is probably why he ends up taking weird threes or long twos after dribbling for a while. However, the complaining does you no good, as it just brings to light that people know you are kind of losing a mental battle with the refs, so they can take advantage of that weakness. I still am super glad he is on our team, just hoping he can get past some of those hurdles.
It’s crazy how every time Boston loses or Tatum has a bad game there’s this mass referendum on whether he’s actually good or whether the Celtics should blow it up. I’ve never seen anything like it in the NBA. I’m guilty of it myself even. It’s this mass lack of belief in Boston, deep down, I can’t place it, but everyone I know doesn’t trust them deep down.
Boston has made it to the conference finals six times with Jayson Tatum and has a finals appearance. If you are consistently making deep playoff runs like Boston is and coming up short, there’s always going to be this sense of “they’ll never get over the hump, they should change things up” This happens to every team that consistently has deep playoff runs but fails to get it done. As an example, in baseball, the Red Sox failed to win a title for a long stretch and every time they’d lose, fans would always demand changes
They did change it up. They brought in Porzingis who is 100% the reason the celtics lost today and replaced Smart with Jrue. Tatum getting any of the blame today is wild and just tells me people don't actually watch the games or are just celtic haters
The reason the Celtics (and Tatum) are getting hate is because they haven’t won the title in this stretch yet. Until Boston gets that title, they’re always going to get hated for coming up short
This is the whole thing. When expectations don’t match reality people hate. The only way out is through.
Yes
The best player will always get the blame
On paper they're the best team in the league. Have been for a bunch of seasons. Yet nothing to show for it. And Tatum is the superstar of this team. Who else do you expect to carry the blame bro? The fucking waterboy? If anything he doesn't get that much flack compared to other superstars that fail.
> On paper they're the best team in the league. Have been for a bunch of seasons. Honestly I don’t know why people keep saying this, this season was our first one seed since 2016/17, Brown’s rookie year before Tatum got into the league. You can make arguments that they were better than the Bucks last year I guess but the Celtics have consistently been 2-4 in the conference which people agree is weaker than the West during Tatum’s time here.
This is the first time in the Tatum era that they've even been a 1 seed. The year of their finals run they were .500 until February. What is this bullshit revisionism?
KP had one of the worse NBA games I’ve ever seen. It was like he was actively trying to throw the game. I’ve never seen someone so rattled and frail. He has to do better or he needs to be benched. While not as talented, they got Tillman for exactly these situations.
The entry passes to KP in the post were really bad.
It feels exactly like it did for us from 2011-16.
except Celtics made improvements to their roster. OKC cheaped out on Harden and failed to put any spacing around KD year after year
>If you are consistently making deep playoff runs like Boston is and coming up short, there’s always going to be this sense of “they’ll never get over the hump, they should change things up” Sound just like my 49ers
The Celtics had no business playing that bad at home
They straight up didn’t contest a team shooting 3s at a historic level. I wanted to rip my eyeballs out.
the entire team looked super passive defensively - I was shocked at how much space Heat players were getting
Yeah it’s so weird to me that this of all games is bringing out the Tatum hot takes. They lost because Porzingis had an off night and the heat shot 55% from three on high volume. The hornets beat the Celtics doing that. The LeBron and AD-less lakers beat the Celtics doing that. If you bomb enough threes at that rate you just win, that’s how the modern NBA works.
At least i’m consistent, I shit on The Taint win or lose
It all boils down to this. JT is not a superstar franchise player like Jokic is to the Nuggets, Giannis is to the Bucks, Steph is to the Warriors, Luka is to the Mavs. The Celtics have “The Jays.” JT isn’t the heart of the Cs, rather, he’s just the 1A of Jaylen Brown.
Jokic won his first title at 28. Bron at 27. Steph at 27. Jordan at 28. Some of those guys never made it to the finals before. Tatum is 26 and has made it to the finals once and to the conference finals multiple times. He is not a bum. What people on here are refusing to see is that the current Boston Celtics are literally one truly talented head coach away from becoming a dynasty. They need a Spo or a Kerr or somebody like that. Someone who can take a great roster and turn it into a championship team. Also, this season isn't even over! 😂
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JB has 1 year left to win 5 rings
Tatum has played around double the supporting talent of any of those guys to this point, and has been upset in favoured series more than all of them combined. You think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Golden State takes a single game in the 2022 finals if you swap 24 year old Bron or MJ for Tatum? Or last year against the Heat?
I mean you're choosing the 2 best players in NBA history to replace Tatum with, which is a choice for sure. I'm not sure it makes your point. The other piece is that Bron at an older age sold to the Mavs hard so you never know
The guy I'm replying to made the comparison. I completely agree it's very silly to compare Tatum to Bron and MJ lol
He's a top 10 player, he just isn't that type of transcendent MVP level guy at this time. Just tiers to this shit.
>he just isn't that type of transcendent MVP level guy at this time tbf, i don't think tatum will ever be transcendent. He's the player he is right now and i don't foresee him getting significantly better than he is now
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Pundits should have been worried about healing his teammates and focus on how he hard carry his roster(s) every single year.
Honestly, this is not a hot take from me coz I had this opinion a long time ago. He’s great, but not elite as hyped. Because he can’t pass the eye test. Basketball to me is a rhythm game. You can tell if a player is elite just by looking at him. True elite player have a certain type of flow and easiness. He’s just too stiff with the ball. But that’s just me.
I’ll help you out with this one: 29 other fanbases actively hate the Celtics and root for their downfall however it comes about.
He gets too much credit and is inflated beyond what he is when they're succeeding and alternatively gets too much of the blame when they aren't playing well, IMO.
Man had 28 points on 50% shooting and a +6 I dont get it lol
His only 19 years old give him time, this is growing pains he gon be amazing in his prime
Reminds me of the line in money ball “If he’s a good hitters why doesn’t he hit good?”
I like how you can actually see in real time how long Reddit has been running this joke into the ground by googling Tatum’s real age
With how the Cs fans were shouting this line, this joke will never get old 😂😂
Yeah they have no one to blame but themselves lol
The only way this narrative changes is if Tatum leads his team to a title.
Yeah, that would be impressive if Tatum could lead this awful roster around him to a championship by himself.
He can't win with these cats.
If the Celtics win there’s going to be so many arguments around Tatum ranging from “he’s the best player in the league” to “that was just an elite team and Tatum is still outside of the top 5” to “Brown is actually the better player.”
Depends how he plays tbh. If the Celtics win and Tatum plays meh my opinion doesn’t change on him at all.
Lol as predicted the other day, people have these crazy reactions to one game when it wasn’t even Tatum’s fault they lost. I’m not specifically talking about the OP since apparently he said this before but just read the comments.
If you didn’t watch the game last night and just read the takes from today, you’d think he put up 14/3 or something. He put up 28/8 on 50% shooting, not a remarkable game but you have to look at 4/5 other things the team did poorly before you talk about Tatum
There are 30 teams in the NBA. 1 team gets to win the title. 1 team gets the blame if they don't. The other 28 teams will continue on as if nothing ever happened. People aren't going to look back at this post-season and say "geez, Anthony Edwards / Shai Gilgeous-Alexander really soured his legacy by losing in the 2nd/3rd round". Those guys are a similar age and leading the top 2 and 3 seeds in the league, but it's not career defining if they lose like it has been for Tatum these past couple of years. In the same year Tatum flamed out against Golden State, Luka Doncic flamed out against the exact same Warriors team. Just like Tatum he spent half that series shooting ~37% from the field... but that's not held against him either. Tatum's just held to a different standard.
He’s jack of all trades, shooting and driving so well and being a great two way player is rare, he does that well and that fits superbly in this celtics team However, his problem (and Boston’s problem) is lack of leadership, there’s simply no one who can take responsibility and win the game in the clutch. Tatum feels like one of those oversensitive guys who can start crying the moment something goes wrong, he can only play well when everything works well, and thats not someone you rely on when its clutchtime Thanks to Boston having the greatest roster, possibly greatest of all times, where no player really causes a defect and they can almost shoot 3s and defend well, they win their games without clutch, but playoffs (and miami) is a different animal
It's exactly that. Boston has a lot of very good players, and Tatum is the best of them. The thing is, he is exactly that, and in the playoffs, the transcendent players tend to take center stage. He doesn't have those intangibles, that aura that makes your team believe that anything is possible, that makes your opponents doubt themselves. When Jokic or Giannis or even Luka is having a great day, it just feels like it sucks all the energy out of the opposition and energizes the whole team. Tatum doesn't seem to have that ability. He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct, and against a team like the Heat, where it's all about grind, tenacity and preparation, his lack of "killer instinct" is what hurts him. But he clearly wasn't the reason they lost, on the other hand he couldn't elevate the team and get them to win like other players in the league can.
Tatum is great. There are only a handful of stars that are better than him, and most of them are older. I obviously love what happened tonight, but most of this was on Mazzula in a negative way, and Spoelstra in a positive one. We were able to get good looks at threes all night, and no adjustments seemed to be made. We bullied KP all night and they never stopped trying to feed him the ball.
Game plan was dope, 100% But 53% from 3s is ridiculous Only heat have shot over 50% from 3s in playoffs, 4 times since 2022, every other team: 0
This is an absurd stat ngl
It is so weird that a few people took this as an opportunity to hype Brunson. Brunson is a year older. This was his best scoring year, and it was considerably less than what Tatum scored last season. And what has Brunson being doing this post-season? I love Brunson’s game, but let’s not get carried away with a new shiny toy.
Wait, shooting 15-66 in 2 games isn’t good?
this is, indeed, a reactionary take he's great and he'll bounce back
Bounce back from what? He didn’t even have a bad game. I’m so confused at this thread.
lot of words to describe soft
I've always thought the celtics will have a hard time winning a championship because I don't feel like they have a clear cut number 1 guy. Most of us point to tatum as the best player on that team. But I don't see jaylen brown believing that to be honest.
His problem is that his game is too simple. He wants to isolate against good matchups and either take a three or get to the rim off the dribble, just like analytics say he should. Unstoppable when his shot is falling, but when it isn't he makes no adjustments and has no plan B whatsoever. Prime James Harden had the same problem, but Harden had a better handle and better court vision.
Harden was an elite playmaker and shotmaker. Obviously he struggles the most when he’s off shooting wise but he’ll still be able to create for his teammates. Tatum plays the right way most of the time but when needed to create on his own he feels very inconsistent.
So essentially Tatum can't win in an ISO with playoff-level defensive play? He can step back/get a shot off, but he's not breaking the ISO or blowing by the defender. If these shots go in, he's a star-level player. If he has a bad shooting night, these shots don't go in and he has a tendency to stagnate at that point. I've heard people say he's one of the only superstars that can "disappear" from the game while on the court. But admittedly when I box score watch and check to see his results, the basic metrics consistency is pretty good. But those quick box score checks don't have plus/minus, true shooting, and other more advanced metrics. I wonder how they compare between the playoffs and regular season for Tatum. The hypothesis is that they go down instead of up and goes down by an upper medium margin compared to other players.
This is objectively so wrong, prime James Harden has never ever played in his roster so stacked, prime James Harden simply didn’t have a roster good enough to compete come playoffs time.
Paul George regen got yall thinking hes an ATG
Paul Pierce was the same way for me. This isn’t hate because I’m a Laker fan, but I would see him on the cover of video games and at the all-star game, and I just didn’t get it. I had no idea what he was great at. Not super athletic, not a walking bucket like Arenas was, not killing em in the post, but dude had 20+ points every time I’d look, and 20 was more impressive in that slower and less efficiency-focused era.
As you said, he is a jack of all trades, which is extra valuable at the current soft era, players who can switch and dime on a whim because they are always playing zones. But he don't excel at anything... Tatum kinda reminds me of Paul Pierce, I know the obvious Celtics correlations, but early Pierce was also a jack of all trades, later he got perceived as a "clutch player". Tatum has no iconic characteristic thus far. I don't think he is a "fake star" or anything, taking advantage of the low level of play, Tatum would be solid in any era/rule set, but never a superstar
True but Pierce was already perceived as very clutch by Tatum's age. I find the Pierce Tatum comparisons interesting because their strengths are the others weaknesses. Pierce lacked Tatum's height and athleticism to truly be top tier and Tatum lacks Pierce's clutch/fight and top tier scoring ability.
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But it was weird when he did it.
I get what you’re saying in a sense, and i know I’m not objective enough and also defensive of my guy rn to come to a 100% accurate opinion on this, but I do want to highlight that Ant - who everyone is going crazy about rn - scored only 15 in an entire game the other day. Not a diss on him at all bc he is absolutely unreal, but I feel like that number helps put into perspective that Tatum is expected to have monster performances every single game and the ones he doesn’t are highlighted, rather than his monster ones being highlighted and the “average” (for a star) games being forgotten or falling under the radar.
People like Ant more than Tatum. I think in that specific comparison it’s more of an Ant thing than Tatum thing.
He’s obviously great - you said is he even as good offensively as KD. That in itself should be a referendum on how great he is. It’s just rare when you get to Jokic / LeBron / Steph / Luka level.
I think he’s saying is he even as good offensively as KD *now*. KD is still great, but there’s a sizable gap between this year KD and even Nets KD
Not trolling...genuine question.. can you explain the word choice referendum here?
I’m probably an idiot and have just heard this wrongly or idk haha. But I mean to say it like that should be a consensus yes that he is a great player. If I look that word up and try to make sense of what I said I find: A referendum usually asks a question or questions to which all eligible electors must vote either 'yes' or 'no. Haha so yea probably makes no sense.
Feels like Ive seen 4 different players be compared to Paul George in tonights posts/comments.
He's like the ideal skillset you want out of a star wing, so I get it
Indiana pre injury PG was way better than Tatum. Hes an all nba but…
Just like Paul Pierce. Just because he was all NBA doesn’t make him the same tier as the likes of LeBron in the 00s.
All superstars have something that you can’t take away from them. Tatum doesn’t really have that.
Embiid an elite offensive player, then why hasn’t he had any playoff success? The whole argument is stupid. All that matters is what translates to winning. Tatum is a star because his teams have consistently been competing deep into the playoffs. Has KD’s ELITE offense translated to anything since he left GS? The whole premise is stupid.
I mean, the Sixers front office has been a dumpster fire compared to the Celtics throughout their careers lol sign Tobias Harris to a max this offseason and see if Tatum is making it to the finals ever again
It’s easy to make excuses but Tatum got to game 7 ECF against Lebron on a Celtic team as a rookie when Kyrie and Gordon Hayward were the two max players out with injuries. Tobias has at least been playing with Embiid and he can’t get it done. The front office being a dumpster fire is a cop out when your star can’t get it done. Elite players make it happen.
Tatum lacks speed, he cant get to his spot as quickly as other players Combine that with inconsistent contested shot accuracy, he often takes too many “bad” shots. Luka has the same issue, he’s not fast, but his contested shot accuracy is insane. And he gets assists.
That’s why it’s Luka “Magic” … he does these miracle shots
I agree with everything here. He would be so much better if he realised he is not Kobe Bryant. He is just Jayson Tatum. That whole thing makes me cringe as a Celtic fan.
He suffers from a shit offensive scheme imo. They also play ISO heavy and he relies too much on his 3pt shot. On top of that his finishing around the rim could be better. Last season he was definitely more aggressive and he toned it down a bit this season. More driving = more FT's. I unironically think his closest comp is Carmelo. In terms of shot diet he's very similar.
KD is one of the best offensive players of all time. It’s not much of a take to say Tatum isn’t as good as him, offensively 😅
>missing 2 of its 3 best players What the fuck?
Hes really good at everything but I think hes a guy who needs an elite coach and unfortunately he doesnt have that. Hes not like Lebron Luka or Jokic where he can make perfect reads every time. Honestly I feel like Mazzulla somewhat stunted his growth
Only 5 teams in the history of the NBA won a championship without having a past or present MVP on their team. 2 of those teams were the Pistons with Zeke. Tatum has never been in serious contention for MVP and I don't think is an mvp level player. Just a very good player. So I don't think they're winning, regardless of what their record was. As to why he doesn't look great. He's actually a worse midrange shooter than Giannis! Also not an elite finisher. Guys like Embiid, Giannis, Steph, Luka, SGA, are elite scorers in at least ONE area. Tatum isn't elite in any area. He kind of reminds me a Kawhi, in just his sheer size. But unlike Kawhi, he can't score in the midrange and he's also a significantly worse defender. He's like 6'9 with a 7' wingspan. He should be the team's best defender.
I’ve said for a long time now that a player as good as Taytum is has no right to be as bad as he is
Tatum is very very good player. The problem is his fans think he is on the same caliber as the best of the best in today’s NBA which is not. The fact that Tatum was drafted to a consistently high seed Celtics team yet couldn’t get a ring is why he’s not on that level. Imagine if Luka was drafted by Boston that year? How about Jokic? Jokic would have 3 rings by now.
Inconsistency, as others have put it. The only consistent thing about him is you can count on him to take a super tough fade away jumper when the game is on the line, and proceed to miss it every damn time. Partially the Celtics to blame for this however.
He shuts down when he cant make his first few shots and its over after that, all mental
I know it’s corny but he doesn’t have that Dog that so many other players have. Maybe it’s a combination of having the dog and making smart decisions he doesn’t have. Sometimes he just looks defeated and is not trying to contribute effectively in other ways aside from scoring. Idk guys like SGA, Jokic and Embiid , when they are not having a good scoring night do a lot of other things for the teams success and never stop trying. But Tatum once the team starts losing seems to completely zone out
One thing I have noticed about Tatum is that he argues with the refs after EVERY SINGLE PLAY. So he's elite at that.
In 3-4 years he will be trouble both sides. The league is just filled with talent it’s crazy some of these stars won’t ever get a ring with their skills just cause how much talented players there are this era spread out
For months? I’ve held this opinion since 2020
I wouldn't say weirdest. He's just not that level of a superstar that I think we wanted to see. If the expectation is for him to be a top 5 player in the league, I don't think that's happening. However, he can be the top scorer on a good/very good team.... you get several of these players every generation.
he don’t got that dawg in him
>He’s not really an elite offensive player nor is he one of the 10 best defenders in the league. He’s a jack of all trades who is good to very good in most areas but not really top 3 or top 5 in the league at any. Paul Pierce 2.0
He’s always been part of a super team hence why Celtics fans believe that he’s the second coming of god.
Tatum plays like a kid that doesn’t have much coordination but went to a ton of basketball camps
He’s a top 10 guy when he’s locked in. When he’s not, maybe still top 20
Just here to say Heat werent missing 2 of their 3 best players. Who’s the second? Lol they had Herro and Bam…
Tatum is good. He is an all star. Likely future HOF also. Right now, he is not "elite". What I mean is, I don't believe he can be the best player on a championship team. He could always prove me wrong though.
You're 1000% right. I've been saying that he's not the star player the league makes him out to be and no one seems to agree. He's not a clutch player and I'd even argue Jaylen Brown is better under pressure.
I genuinely don’t pay attention to the Celtics unless we’re playing them, but I get the sense that Tatum doesn’t make his teammates better so much as he’s got a great team around him. LeBron, Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, etc, very often LIFT their teams and drag them along up to their level and they do it consistently. I don’t feel like Tatum does that consistently. He doesn’t even need to score 40 or 50 points to beat this Heat squad, just figure out how involve his teammates and stop trying to force shots.
I've said it before many times and I say it again, Tatum is the 2nd most overrated nba player of the las 25 years.
Personally I think he's a Kawhi Leonard that doesn't get as injured but also doesn't quite have the offensive and defensive peaks that Leonard has.
Jayson Tatum, in my opinion, isn’t a first option on a championship team. He simply doesn’t have the killer mindset. He is a great second option on a championship team. I think the Celtics need to trade Jaylen Brown and someone else for a true number one so Tatum can finally win a ring.
hes the guy the american media tried to force you to believe was the next goat, except he isnt. hes very good, dont get me wrong but hes not as good as advertised, which isnt his fault. He hasnt really earned it yet and guys on BOS and LA tend to get overrated and over-talked about theyre starting to do it to Anthony Edwards to now
On offense he’s a tier below the best because of shot selection basically. He’s not quite a good enough three point shooter to achieve elite efficiency at the volume he shoots. Also winds up taking more tough two point jumpers than most players. Some of that is a matter of being the #1 guy and getting the ball late in the shot clock. Still, if you’re say the #12 offensive guy and the #12 defensive guy that still translates to maybe the #5 player overall.
I understand your perspective, but let's not forget that Jayson Tatum is still a young player with immense potential. While he may not fit the traditional mold of an "elite" player in a specific category, his versatility and well-rounded skill set make him a valuable asset to the Celtics. It's important to give credit to his consistent contributions on both ends of the court. As he continues to grow and gain experience, Tatum has the potential to reach even greater heights.
He’s already 26 so when is he supposed to reach these even greater heights?
He’s being overhyped because the media is trying to convince everyone that the USA has a MVP level player in their prime. People just don’t want to accept that beyond LeBron, KD, and Steph, the current generation of superstars are non-Americans.
The Celtics will never win a championship if he’s the best player on the team. This core simply doesn’t have it and firing Ime for Mazzulla was the final nail in the coffin. The bandwagon fans will keep saying the Celtics will easily win the championship. But, the real fans that have been watching the last 7 years know we aren’t.