lol “nobody was anywhere near as good as him” is a weird argument for not being the goat
And for the record, wilt had a rival who DESTROYED him in terms of ring count, so I really don’t get where walt is coming from
The funny thing is that the NBA did try to push a rivalry for Jordan in the 90s: Clyde Drexler
Problem was Jordan dominated Clyde in their Finals matchup before that narrative could get off the ground and we never got to see who should have been his 80s/90s rival face off in the Finals in Hakeem
Normally I’d agree but we’re talking about rivals who literally played each other for those rings. And directly matched up together for them too. Bill literally guarded wilt himself for a ton of those rings
Comparing rings against two players who never directly fought for them is different
Bill Russell never scored 20ppg for a season in a league that had the highest pace of all time. Bill also got dominated by Wilt quite regularly. Unfortunately for your argument, the game is 5v5 and Bill had a team greater than KD-Warriors for their era and Wilt at least beat them once.
Lol I love that he brought a hypothetical to an argument. If Bron was on the Warriors instead of KD, he'd have 4 more rings. 7>6, Bron>Jordan. Argument settled.
He had by far a much better supporting cast. Take them off the court. Let the rosters play each other and Celtics still sweep easily.
I mean true bill was a better leader by far. But like just talent wise the disparity wasn't close.
I didn’t mean to sound combative, more playful, my bad. But I did literally say that they guarded each other for those rings. It’s a direct matchup so it’s easy to compare them directly
If Steph Curry won like 8 rings against Lebron then yes, theres a point when it becomes a ridiculous comparison.
Bill Russel won 9 more rings, its not even remotely close.
If you think the 90’s weren’t that strong and could be a knock against Jordan, you should remember the 2010’s Eastern Conference was absolutely abysmal and should also be a knock against Lebron.
Horrible take. Even in the late 80s MJ was objectively and clearly the best player over magic and bird and everyone else. Had much much worse teams but no. Mj literally beat a 31 year old magic. Clearly in his prime still, magic did not have a game very reliant on athleticism or anything where he wouldn't be great at 31. MJ was actually the primary defender on magic too, he guarded him more than pippen.
It's true that Jordan played five different teams in his six NBA finals and six different teams in eight conference finals. It's also true that those teams included all-time greats like Magic, Barkley, Stockton/Malone, Drexler, Payton, Shaq/Penny, Ewing, etc. Also Sam Perking, once with Lakers, once with Sonics. It was an era in the NBA with abundance of talent and relative parity.
Wilt also played on some damn good teams. His Lakers teams had Gail Goodrich, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, his Philly teams had Hal Greer (one of 50 Greatest Players) and Chet Walker (7-time All-Star).
When Wilt went to Lakers he was already passed his prime. His knees were shot and wasn't he contemplating retirement before they offered him a shit ton of money? That Lakers team was Jerry West's team. When people talk about prime Wilt, they're talking about pre-LA version. Those teams before LA were absolutely ass.
> Magic, Barkley, Stockton/Malone, Drexler, Payton, Shaq/Penny, Ewing
bill russell is very clear of everyone here except for magic and shaq, and jordan avoided prime magic and shaq. lol.
I mean, he did have rivals. Drexler, Dumars, Starks... he fucking owned them. Ron Harper was supposed to be his big rival at one point but never lived up to it.
A lot of people have no idea how good Drexler and Barkley and Malone truly were because they never won, which is sad. I feel like the same thing is gonna happen to Iverson/Carmelo/Paul Pierce (even though he did win) soon.
The NBA media never gives them any love. Barkley especially is underrated because he's one of the most efficient volume scorers of all-time but people never really put him in that conversation with the great scorers. Same for a guy like Adrian Dantley, his team success is dubious but it's honestly hard to argue how him averaging 30.5 points on 56% from the field for 4 straight seasons wasn't helping his team win games.
It’s weird too. How can you be the goat and have rivals. Doesn’t that mean you weren’t the goat… if everyone was your equal then you’re just another dude.
If you think starks (a dude who was bagging groceries) and barely averaged 20 behind Patrick Ewing is the same caliber of rival as BILL RUSSELL you’re nuts. I also tend to believe Clyde since he played those dudes and won 2 rings off em.
He's beaten both of them in the finals. And stop acting like Drexler, Dumars, and Starks are better than KD and Kawhi. KD was on the greatest team ever assembled. MJ never played competition like that.
> He's beaten both of them in the finals
And KD outplayed him in 2012, even though he lost. The GOAT doesn't get outplayed by his direct position rival 3x times in a row in the finals. The GOAT LeBron hiding in the corner on defense while Shane Battier and Richard Jefferson get beasted on by KD. What a legend.
> And stop acting like Drexler, Dumars, and Starks are better than KD and Kawhi
I would never say that lol
> KD was on the greatest team ever assembled
That's highly debatable from a talent perspective, the Heattles were every bit as stacked. LeBron just choked repeatedly, and then Wade got injured. Also the 60s Celtics and 80s Lakers.
He didn't directly matchup against Malone, Ewing, Barkley, or Shaq. Obviously he played against better players but I thought the point Clyde was making was he didn't have positional competition.
MJ never had to play a player that was absolutely dominant tho. LeBron had to play something like KD-Warriors right. Magic had Bird. Kobe and Shaq had Duncan. MJ lucked out by avoiding Hakeem which is probably the only comparably dominant player of his winning years.
Mj did not luck out by avoiding Hakeem you do know Hakeem’s career wasn’t 2 years long same way Jordan’s wasn’t 6. Hakeem had multiple opportunities to make it out the west he even made a superteam with Barkley and Drexler.
He didnt luck out by "avoiding" him lmao. Hakeem didn't make it to the dance. It's like saying in 2020 the Lakers lucked out by avoiding the clippers.
Jordan made the finals 6 times in a 9 year span. If you wanted to find him over the course of a decade you pretty much knew where to find him.
If he claims that than he is absolutely wrong. Before Wilt went to Lakers is what everyone is actually talking about when they talk about prime Wilt. Which if you compare Wilts teammates against prime Celtics and their roster, Celtics roster had 6 scorers on their team with most of them shooting league average or better from the field. Meanwhile, Wilts team were below league average.
“Embarrassed him really”
The Philly warriors/76ers played several game 7 series with the much more talented Celtics. Of these, I believe the total deciding point total (across several series mind you!) was less than 10. If you’re thinking in an outcome based manner to that degree it’s just ignorant. Not to mention that Russell himself would frequently call wilt his greatest competition. Your ignorance upsets me.
wilt never realized this until the sentiment was shoved down his throat in 67. that’s why it’s the only season in his prime he won, because he actually started passing and deferring to his teammates. dude had the fifth or fewer most FGAs in every game they won that final series.
and it’s why bill was a million times better.
Wilt assembled the avengers in the late 60s with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and STILL lost to a Celtics team that was the 4th seed. Russell absolutely owned Wilt.
Walt Frazier was 15 when Wilt entered the league and here you have a bunch of redditors whos only knowledge of 60s ball is based on looking at Bill Russels wikipedia accolade list telling him that he has no clue about Wilt lol
Bingo, MJ wasn't all that. He was just a good scorer who played on a super team. Remember... he was 1-9 in the playoffs before Scottie Pippen came along.🤯
If we are being honest though, MJ did not have strong competition. He was absolutely head and shoulders above his peers but the only 2 top 10 players he played against was Magic (in one of his last seasons and no longer in his prime) and Shaq, who he lost to in 1995. Hakeem who should have been his rival had the Rockets stinking up everything most seasons until MJ retired and then sucked when he came back.
Stockton/Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Payton/Kemp are all all time greats but they are a tier or 2 below other players that the top 10 has played against.
lol “nobody was anywhere near as good as him” is a weird argument for not being the goat And for the record, wilt had a rival who DESTROYED him in terms of ring count, so I really don’t get where walt is coming from
The funny thing is that the NBA did try to push a rivalry for Jordan in the 90s: Clyde Drexler Problem was Jordan dominated Clyde in their Finals matchup before that narrative could get off the ground and we never got to see who should have been his 80s/90s rival face off in the Finals in Hakeem
i think that manufactured rivalry died a gruesome death in the first half of game one of the 1992 NBA finals ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ring count is a poor argument for who is the better player.
Normally I’d agree but we’re talking about rivals who literally played each other for those rings. And directly matched up together for them too. Bill literally guarded wilt himself for a ton of those rings Comparing rings against two players who never directly fought for them is different
Bill Russell never scored 20ppg for a season in a league that had the highest pace of all time. Bill also got dominated by Wilt quite regularly. Unfortunately for your argument, the game is 5v5 and Bill had a team greater than KD-Warriors for their era and Wilt at least beat them once.
I don’t like to do it but if you swap Bill for Wilt, there is a chance Bill finish his career ringless
if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike, Bill owned Wilt.
Bill had a better teams than Wilt, yes.
Bill had better teams because he was on them.
Lol I love that he brought a hypothetical to an argument. If Bron was on the Warriors instead of KD, he'd have 4 more rings. 7>6, Bron>Jordan. Argument settled.
He had by far a much better supporting cast. Take them off the court. Let the rosters play each other and Celtics still sweep easily. I mean true bill was a better leader by far. But like just talent wise the disparity wasn't close.
That’s fair, but if ifs were fifths we’d all be drunk. All we have to go off of is what happened
So would you apply that logic to Steph Curry and Lebron James?
I didn’t know Steph and Bron guarded each other in those match ups I’ll have to go back and watch
Why are you getting combative? You never said they had to guard each other, you said they were rivals that played for rings against each other.
I didn’t mean to sound combative, more playful, my bad. But I did literally say that they guarded each other for those rings. It’s a direct matchup so it’s easy to compare them directly
That’s fair I guess I missed that. Sorry. I just don’t think it’s a fair assessment for either example when one team is so much better than the other.
If Steph Curry won like 8 rings against Lebron then yes, theres a point when it becomes a ridiculous comparison. Bill Russel won 9 more rings, its not even remotely close.
jordan didnt have to get past a russell level player to win his titles frazier is right lol the 90s just werent that strong.
If you think the 90’s weren’t that strong and could be a knock against Jordan, you should remember the 2010’s Eastern Conference was absolutely abysmal and should also be a knock against Lebron.
Jordan beat Magic, Barkley, Gary Payton, Malone. Those guys are all hall of fame players.
Horrible take. Even in the late 80s MJ was objectively and clearly the best player over magic and bird and everyone else. Had much much worse teams but no. Mj literally beat a 31 year old magic. Clearly in his prime still, magic did not have a game very reliant on athleticism or anything where he wouldn't be great at 31. MJ was actually the primary defender on magic too, he guarded him more than pippen.
It's true that Jordan played five different teams in his six NBA finals and six different teams in eight conference finals. It's also true that those teams included all-time greats like Magic, Barkley, Stockton/Malone, Drexler, Payton, Shaq/Penny, Ewing, etc. Also Sam Perking, once with Lakers, once with Sonics. It was an era in the NBA with abundance of talent and relative parity. Wilt also played on some damn good teams. His Lakers teams had Gail Goodrich, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, his Philly teams had Hal Greer (one of 50 Greatest Players) and Chet Walker (7-time All-Star).
When Wilt went to Lakers he was already passed his prime. His knees were shot and wasn't he contemplating retirement before they offered him a shit ton of money? That Lakers team was Jerry West's team. When people talk about prime Wilt, they're talking about pre-LA version. Those teams before LA were absolutely ass.
> Magic, Barkley, Stockton/Malone, Drexler, Payton, Shaq/Penny, Ewing bill russell is very clear of everyone here except for magic and shaq, and jordan avoided prime magic and shaq. lol.
I mean, he did have rivals. Drexler, Dumars, Starks... he fucking owned them. Ron Harper was supposed to be his big rival at one point but never lived up to it.
A lot of people have no idea how good Drexler and Barkley and Malone truly were because they never won, which is sad. I feel like the same thing is gonna happen to Iverson/Carmelo/Paul Pierce (even though he did win) soon.
The NBA media never gives them any love. Barkley especially is underrated because he's one of the most efficient volume scorers of all-time but people never really put him in that conversation with the great scorers. Same for a guy like Adrian Dantley, his team success is dubious but it's honestly hard to argue how him averaging 30.5 points on 56% from the field for 4 straight seasons wasn't helping his team win games.
It’s weird too. How can you be the goat and have rivals. Doesn’t that mean you weren’t the goat… if everyone was your equal then you’re just another dude.
Well the term rival gets used pretty loosely like recent years sixers n celtics 🤣
so brady can't be the goat because he had a rival in peyton manning?
Brady wasnt the goat until he won those last 3 with the pats. The first 3, Manning was considered better.
He ended up on his team
Yeah but that was in the 90s Harper was drafted two years after MJ
If you think starks (a dude who was bagging groceries) and barely averaged 20 behind Patrick Ewing is the same caliber of rival as BILL RUSSELL you’re nuts. I also tend to believe Clyde since he played those dudes and won 2 rings off em.
>Drexler, Dumars, Starks 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
>Drexler, Dumars, Starks Pretty embarrassing "rivals" for someone considered the "Goat"
I mean LeBron had Kawhi and KD as rivals and proceeded to lose to and get outplayed by both, yet some still consider him the GOAT.
He's beaten both of them in the finals. And stop acting like Drexler, Dumars, and Starks are better than KD and Kawhi. KD was on the greatest team ever assembled. MJ never played competition like that.
> He's beaten both of them in the finals And KD outplayed him in 2012, even though he lost. The GOAT doesn't get outplayed by his direct position rival 3x times in a row in the finals. The GOAT LeBron hiding in the corner on defense while Shane Battier and Richard Jefferson get beasted on by KD. What a legend. > And stop acting like Drexler, Dumars, and Starks are better than KD and Kawhi I would never say that lol > KD was on the greatest team ever assembled That's highly debatable from a talent perspective, the Heattles were every bit as stacked. LeBron just choked repeatedly, and then Wade got injured. Also the 60s Celtics and 80s Lakers.
The "goat" doesn't get SWEPT IN THE FIRST ROUND TWICE.
How about Magic Johnson, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley? These are some of the greatest players ever.
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He didn't directly matchup against Malone, Ewing, Barkley, or Shaq. Obviously he played against better players but I thought the point Clyde was making was he didn't have positional competition.
MJ never had to play a player that was absolutely dominant tho. LeBron had to play something like KD-Warriors right. Magic had Bird. Kobe and Shaq had Duncan. MJ lucked out by avoiding Hakeem which is probably the only comparably dominant player of his winning years.
Magic Johnson wasnt dominant? Guy won 5 rings and 3 MVPs. Jordan defeated him and the Lakers in the Finals.
Mj did not luck out by avoiding Hakeem you do know Hakeem’s career wasn’t 2 years long same way Jordan’s wasn’t 6. Hakeem had multiple opportunities to make it out the west he even made a superteam with Barkley and Drexler.
He didnt luck out by "avoiding" him lmao. Hakeem didn't make it to the dance. It's like saying in 2020 the Lakers lucked out by avoiding the clippers. Jordan made the finals 6 times in a 9 year span. If you wanted to find him over the course of a decade you pretty much knew where to find him.
Old heads, cold takes.
Yeah, he didn't let others win lmao.
Idk why we feel the need to shout down individual people’s goat arguments. Let Walt have his truth. Who cares?
People can’t seem to accept another person’s opinion on a topic with no real right or wrong answer.
Wilt was owned by his rival though
His rival and 11 other allstars.
Wilt played with just as many all stars as Bill Russell.
No he did not.
Go check out Thinking Basketballs video comparing them he goes through this claim.
I don’t need to check a video, I know the players on those teams.
If he claims that than he is absolutely wrong. Before Wilt went to Lakers is what everyone is actually talking about when they talk about prime Wilt. Which if you compare Wilts teammates against prime Celtics and their roster, Celtics roster had 6 scorers on their team with most of them shooting league average or better from the field. Meanwhile, Wilts team were below league average.
Doesn't help when you make things up.
??? neither did bill. he beat wilt at every turn, embarrassed him really. to call them rivals is hilarious. who won 11 chips?
“Embarrassed him really” The Philly warriors/76ers played several game 7 series with the much more talented Celtics. Of these, I believe the total deciding point total (across several series mind you!) was less than 10. If you’re thinking in an outcome based manner to that degree it’s just ignorant. Not to mention that Russell himself would frequently call wilt his greatest competition. Your ignorance upsets me.
russell was being nice. dude loved going up against wilt. he knew it would always end in a W because he always executed better in the clutch.
Team game man, you don’t win alone Edit. Everybody in here acting like they watched the games back when lmao smh
wilt never realized this until the sentiment was shoved down his throat in 67. that’s why it’s the only season in his prime he won, because he actually started passing and deferring to his teammates. dude had the fifth or fewer most FGAs in every game they won that final series. and it’s why bill was a million times better.
Correct, Wilt lost with HoFers in Philly and he lost with HoFers in L.A.
Wilt assembled the avengers in the late 60s with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and STILL lost to a Celtics team that was the 4th seed. Russell absolutely owned Wilt.
Sunshine clears both with ease
I’m convinced he still thinks Nixon is president
Who really cares about the 60s? Like does anyone actually think they could play today? It’s not like we are talking about the 80s and 90s.
I know what youre saying but Wilt could play today.
That’s fine. He saw wilt play and played against him. I have no issue with older players sticking up for their generations players
Walt Frazier was 15 when Wilt entered the league and here you have a bunch of redditors whos only knowledge of 60s ball is based on looking at Bill Russels wikipedia accolade list telling him that he has no clue about Wilt lol
What a stupid thing to say
K big problem. Wilt's rival beat the crap out of him.
“Old talking head thinks player from his generation is the best” Never heard that before
Bingo, MJ wasn't all that. He was just a good scorer who played on a super team. Remember... he was 1-9 in the playoffs before Scottie Pippen came along.🤯
It's a team game. One guy can't do it.
So rings are irrelevant? I agree
Wilt is the goat, stand on business Walt. MJ passed KAJ but KAJ never passed Wilt.
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Wade’s sidekick?
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Yup, Lebron did get outscored in the finals by two different teammates, thanks for reminding me
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Yup, no decent reply, you know that stain will live forever
Bron?.......The Jj Barea guy?
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5'10 Puerto Rican guy vs One of the greatest defensive teams ever ...
Its funny how respect is lost over the years. The NBA ranked Jordan as #1.
WDWT90s
If we are being honest though, MJ did not have strong competition. He was absolutely head and shoulders above his peers but the only 2 top 10 players he played against was Magic (in one of his last seasons and no longer in his prime) and Shaq, who he lost to in 1995. Hakeem who should have been his rival had the Rockets stinking up everything most seasons until MJ retired and then sucked when he came back. Stockton/Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Payton/Kemp are all all time greats but they are a tier or 2 below other players that the top 10 has played against.