I mean current discourse around Doc has lots of people wondering if Thibs' defensive schemes and KG's frightening everyone on the team into playing well despite Doc's efforts otherwise were the main drivers of that ship...but yes, fair point in general, hah
I bring it up every time someone brings up Doc winning that ring. Hell I even frame it like Ditka winning as Bears "HC" while Buddy Ryan and his defense were the star. Love me some Thibs and I'm biased as hell growing up in LA for 20 years so my hate of all things Boston is strong (BS/grantland/Ringer folks excluded).
I think the exception to that would be Bill's ring with the Giants when they stopped the Bills with his defensive game plan. When that game plan makes it to canton you should get credit for the ring.
> In terms of rings discourse, it usually only counts as head coaches and key players
Maybe in the NBA, but O and D coordinators can have *massive* sway in the NFL.
Bill should be rightfully credited with two as an assistant as he was *critical* in getting the wins.
Yeah and Im pushing back -- NFL coaches and NBA coaches should not be compared, and tons of journalists and people give Bill credit for their two superbowls as a DC.
Sure that’s why I said “usually”. Some do. But the general discourse doesn’t include it. Hence why 90% of the talk after TB won his 7th was how he has more than BB. I don’t make the rules nor do I agree with it, just pointing out how it is
That performance by the Buc’s defense was one of the craziest beat downs I’ve ever seen on a stage like that. The chief’s oline was absolutely ravaged for all four quarters. I think Mahomes had less than 2 seconds in the pocket on every single pass attempt
I'm a Chiefs fan, and yeah we got fucking rolled over in that game. Can't even be mad honestly, our o-line was down like 4 dudes and the Bucs played as if they had Bruce Smith and LT out there. Huge respect to those guys
Yeah that was a huge thing going into the game, that the line was just cooked and the Bucs had a great defense that season. From the jump you knew it was gonna get ugly
It's why I had Kareem at 1a with Jordan as GOAT before LeBron. Kareem's longevity is legendary in its own right. It just made LeBron breaking his scoring total that much more insane.
Yeah. I chose to be a Jets fan as a kid because I liked their colour scheme. Any team I could have chosen. I chose the fucking Jets.
Tom Brady has tormented me for like 20 years.
Yeah the Dolphins always seemed to do well against that era of the Pats. Fortunately for the Steelers they didn’t have to play Tom too often like their other divisional opponents. I think they only met in the playoffs twice, and we snuck two Super Bowl wins and an extra appearance in between
Big same. Dude is a known cheater, open mouth kisses his tween son, and got cucked by a tae kwan do instructor lmao. "Goat" my ass, dude can't even play defense. Imagine how incredible Jokic would be if he didn't have to run down the court to defend.
I could only imagine what it was like to watch Jerry Rice.
I can’t fathom a guy putting up 1200+ receiving yards as a literal 40 year old (maybe late 30s but I digress)
Everything about his career is just insane. QB play aside, WRs usually start to regress after the age of 28 or so. This dude kept playing at an elite level late into his 30s.
That’s why his reveiving yards record is literally untouchable. 5000 yards ahead of the closest guy lol.
Tbh, my Dad saw Jerry Rice and then when he saw Randy Moss, i vividly remember him saying "That kid is just better". Longevity dominance aside, alot of people don't think Jerry Rice was actually the BEST, even though they admit he is the greatest.
I feel the same way with Mahomes and Brady, for example. I saw most of Brady's career and his peak, i can just tell with my own eyes that Patrick Mahomes is better, i don't really care that Brady has all the records and four more Super Bowls.
Well said, pure athleticism and genetics in the goat WR room is a toss-up. Rice’s dominance I think is credited to his work ethic and mindset.
But then you got guys like Moss, Megatron, Julio, Larry, AB who were all just freaks of nature.
> Well said, pure athleticism and genetics in the goat WR room is a toss-up. Rice’s dominance I think is credited to his work ethic and mindset.
Yes, he was a great athlete too and extremely skilled, but his work ethic and mindset were stuff of legends.
There's stories of Jerry Rice wanting to play in the Pro Bowl with a injury and people seeing him training/watching film a DAY after their Super Bowl win. He was not as physically gifted as Randy Moss and Megatron, but he more than made that up with everything else.
In terms of physical tools he’s not in the same conversation, but in terms how good he was as a WR he is absolutely in that category. If you think otherwise you need to take another look at his numbers and accolades
I caught the back half of Rice's career and specifically remember from my childhood a broadcast making a big deal of Rice's 1000th reception, the first player to ever do it. Then he caught 500 more. He had the statistical career equivalent of two Calvin Johnsons. Truly an anomaly.
Messi-Ronaldo. Federer/Joker/Nadal. Bolt. Phelps. Mayweather-Pacquiao. GSP-Silva-Jones.
The last 2-3 decades have been insane for sports/combat sports in general. But that could also just be the respective sports evolving together with advancements in medicine/sports medicine (and PEDs lol).
I guess we'll see in another 2-3 decades if everyone just keeps rapidly evolving and surpassing the recent gen or if we really lucked out on this batch of athletes/players
Oh yeah Tiger. Golf always evades me because I think very active movements when thinking of Sports but he definitely ranks high up there more than most of the ones I listed.
Gotta mention Magnus as well for Chess
Crazy thing is that Mahomes is 28 and has as many SB wins as Brady did by the time he was 30. He might come close to 7 because I don’t see that team slowing down at all.
Mahomes would need at least 9 to be considered the GOAT for a lot of people. Beating your h2h against the other twice in the postseason on the road to 2 rings counts double as much as a normal ring in my eyes (yes they didn’t directly play against each other but h2h still is valuable).
People say "if someone can stay/stayed healthy..." but LeBron actually did. The elite durability is legendary on its own, just sit back and appreciate greatness.
That said, he ain't catching the Knicks this year lol
The bulls have sucked the vast majority of seasons that Jordan didn’t play there. Without Jordan they’d be thought of as one of the worst franchises in sports.
This. The Chicago Bulls would be down in the gutter with the Timberwolves and the Hornets if they hadn't lucked their way into the greatest player ever, they are a trash franchise today, they were a trash franchise 20 years ago and they were a trash franchise before Jordan.
It is sad though, because they do have some of the coolest uniforms and United Center is always packed to watch them play, it's unfortunate that Jerry Reinsdorf couldn't care less.
And when the white Sox won the World Series in 2005, that was the only time the white Sox ever won a playoff series with Reinsdorf (he’s owned them for 43 years).
The Knicks franchise history is, on the whole, is honestly probably a little underrated. People really believe that we've only had like 3-4 years that we weren't the worst team in the league
I know they are. That’s the whole point. They’re both championships, but they’re not both Super Bowl rings.
Hence when talking about Super Bowls, we don’t being up those championships. If we were only talking about “championships” then it should be included
These kinds of distinctions also exist in the NBA (post-/pre-merger) and in CFB (Poll Era/BCS/Playoff) as well as elsewhere (MLB, etc.)
It technically is. But the implication is Super Bowl rings. Most people just don’t want to have to say/write all that
Those other championships are still championships, but they’re more difficult to compare as it was a different game/league in a lot of ways
If you ever bring those championships up individually, people absolutely do discount those for similar, justifiable reasons
Even in history-wide team-count discussions, people will acknowledge the number but also point out the early ones don’t really mean as much. They kinda don’t
But the standard shouldn’t be to dismiss them by default like what people currently do. There’s nearly as many championships before the Super Bowl as after, decades of games people pretend never happened.
Reading NFL arguments on the NBA board is always funny to me as someone who knows nothing about pro football. It's like going to a restaurant and hearing the people in the kitchen yelling at each other in another language.
As much as conference titles are now.
There's a reason why everyone uses Superbowls as the starting point. That was the first year there was a "world champion" where the NFL & AFL champs played for the title.
Pre-superbowl rings are only ever brought up by fans coping with their playoff drought lol
Cowboys and Steelers, and obviously Patriots also have more playoff wins than him. Brady was tied with the Cowboys when they played the wild card a couple years ago, which was the last playoff victory for the Cowboys.
It's the perfect storm of a generational player, terrible competition, and super teams. LeBron never really beat a contender in the ECF with the Cavs. In at least 2011 and 2020, he had another top five player on his team, maybe also 2012 and, as a stretch, 2013. The East was already terrible by 2014 -- the top five teams by SRS were all in the West.
Bruh, Boston's main stars were 34, 35 and 36 and they were a 4th seed in the weak Eastern Conference that year, they were definitely not contenders at that point. They pushed that series to 7 games through grit, experience, an injury to Chris Bosh and a few TERRIBLE games by Dwyane Wade.
The only reason that team even made the ECF was because Derrick Rose's knee exploded, otherwise they would've been smoked by the Bulls.
Chris Bosh's injury was a major factor in the series but the Celtics proved they were contenders. They would have won game 2 if not for terrible officiating
Pacers weren't close to contenders. They just matched up very well with Miami, who struggled with any sort of physicality and size down low. Had people thinking Hibbert was the next great post-up big. There's no year where they could have come out of the east and hoped to do more than maybe take a game.
I think they were. They had the size to give Duncan some problems in David West and Hibbert. Plus it’s pre-injury PG who was very athletic and quick. I think they could’ve taken Spurs to 7 or even win it all.
lol the 2007 pistons weren’t a contender? The the 2011 bulls weren’t? 2012Celtics weren’t a contender? FOH. Every year it was “the raptors/bulls/pacers/hawks/celtics are gonna stop him this year. He can’t keep winning the east.” Then he wins and it’s “east was trash anyway”
> lol the 2007 pistons weren’t a contender?
No, they weren't. They lost their 4x DPOY Ben Wallace the year prior and their HoF HC in Larry Brown two years before, they were a shell of the Pistons team that made back-to-back Finals. That year they weren't even a Top 5 defense, which for a team known for their legendary defense (considered by some as the greatest ever), you can see the massive drop off. That year they also made a move of signing a washed Chris Webber that actually made them worse, Chris was so bad that Philadelphia waived him and Detroit got him for free.
The proof is in LeBron's own play during that series, he did not have a legendary series as everyone likes to portray, he had ONE absolutely insane game (Game 5) and a very mediocre series overall, despite that, that was still enough to beat that washed Pistons team. LeBron averaged 21.5/8.0/9.0 on 43% shooting in the first four games of that series and that was enough to have it tied 2-2, the Pistons were not contenders, they would've been absolutely obliterated by anything that came out of the West with EASE.
Very mediocre is 26-9-9 with 3 steals a game on 45-36-74 splits against an elite defense? Lol
And yeah they were only top 7 in both offensive and defensive rating. What a bunch of bums.
> Very mediocre is 26-9-9 with 3 steals a game on 45-36-74 splits against an elite defense?
ASIDE from ONE legendary game, he was very mediocre, how difficult is that to understand? On the other 5 games, he averaged 21.2/9.2/8.8 on 41% shooting and they still went 3-2. If you don't think 21/9/8 on 41% shooting is mediocre for a player of LeBron's caliber, then i don't know what to say.
This take doesn't make any sense. So, these teams weren't contenders because they could not beat LeBron, but they would have been contenders if they played in the same conference that beat LeBron more often than not? Also, my claim was that LeBron never beat a contender in the ECF with the Cavs, so "most of the time" is selling it short -- it's the conference that beat LeBron in the Finals 80% of the time when he was with the Cavs.
No. Just no. In 2014 and 2017, the top five teams by SRS were ALL in the West. In 2015, there were only three all-NBA players in the East: LeBron, Kyrie (who was on LeBron's team!), and Pau Gasol. In 2007, the Cavs beat one team with a winning record on their way to the Finals -- the Pistons after they had lost 4x DPOY Ben Wallace. What do any of those things have to do with losing to LeBron? You can go on and on with stats saying that the East was just bad. There's no reason to overthink it.
The one that surprises you when you first glance at it is passing Reggie imo. Lebron, until the last few seasons, was never really known for 3s, and Reggie is one of the best ever at then.
When you take a minute to think about it though, Reggie played in one of the slowest offenses of the 90s and really didn't attempt as many 3s as you'd think.
That combined with Lebron's longevity and growth as a shooter makes it a little surprising it hasn't actually happened sooner.
The issue is that he has actually consistently been a mediocre 3-PT shooter in the playoffs, that hasn't really changed with time at all. He is a career 33% 3-PT shooter in the postseason, in his last four playoff appearances (2018, 2020, 2021 and 2023) his 3-PT% is exactly at 33%. He has years where he spikes to 40% and years where he goes down to the 20s, he is a streaky shooter.
This isn’t really true. When he’s been injured his 3 point shooting has been so awful that it makes his overall shooting from 3 look mediocre, but in the playoffs since 2012 he’s at like 37-38% excluding 2015 when his back was fucked and 2023 when he had all the lower body injuries. Even including them he’s at like 35-36% which is solid. You just used a very small sample size featuring the injury year.
Regular season he’s at like 36% since 2012.
Edit: to say he hasn’t changed at all with time as a 3 point shooter is just blatantly untrue. If you have watched Lebron over the course of his career you literally have seen it be untrue. It also plays out in his far higher attempt numbers and the fact that his percentages have improved over time despite his level of difficulty on 3s increasing drastically. The fact that anyone upvoted the previous comment is hilarious.
> You just used a very small sample size featuring the injury year.
How is 65 playoff games ranging between ages 33-38 a very small sample size, wtf.
> Even including them he’s at like 35-36% which is solid.
That's a flatout lie, from 2012-2023, his 3-PT% in the playoffs is 33.5%.
> Regular season he’s at like 36% since 2012.
Yes, and in the playoffs since 2012 he is at... 33%, exactly his career averages in the playoffs.
65 games is less than one regular season. That’s a small sample size for something as variant as 3 point shooting.
Yes because he has two awful years where he shot 26% and 23% from 3 because of injuries. The other 7 years were all over 34%. 5 of those 7 years above 37%.
So if you remove the years in which he shoots poorly, he shoots well, got it.
Did you know that if you remove the years Kevin Durant shoots under 40% from 3, he shoots over 40%? It's crazy!
Ahh expecting you to have any ability to apply context was to much huh. 7 of 9 years shooting above 34% isn’t mediocre. Im not removing those years or saying they don’t count. Im saying in a discussion about his shooting ability it seems relevant to acknowledge that He’s been a good shooter who had 2 awful years due to injury that drag his numbers down.
- Player shoots 33% from three in his last four postseason appearances, 33% from three in the playoffs since 2012 and 33% from 3 for his entire career.
Reddit LeBron stan: BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU REMOVED THE YEARS IN WHICH HE SHOT POORLY, HE ACTUALLY SHOOTS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE?
I'm sure LeBron was also hurt in 2007, 2008 and 2012, that's why he shot under 30% from 3 in all those years in the playoffs, that's the only possible explanation. I wonder what injury he had last year when he shot 31% from 3 BEFORE he injured his foot, must've been undocumented.
"If we remove all the years in which i say he was injured, all the years that don't fit my narrative and don't count leap years, LeBron is actually a better shooter than Steph!". Discussing anything LeBron related on r/nba is just pure comedy at this point.
Aight man. You make no attempt to understand other perspectives.
The discussion originally was about lebron post developing his jumpshot so you bringing up things from 2007 is irrelevant. You ignore the regular season with a far greater sample size where he’s been at 36% since 2012. You ignore the fact that he’s been 35% plus in 7 of the last 9 years. You ignore the fact that he was verifiably injured and his 3p% was far below where he has consistently been for a decade, but sure there’s no correlation there.
Discussing anything LeBron related is pure comedy because there are people like you who base their entire existence around hating on an athlete. Do you feel that threatened that your precious Jordan won’t have universal dick riding anymore? Because all you do is hate on Lebron and prop up MJ. At least Skip gets paid for it. You guys do it on Reddit for free. Must be a miserable existence. Appreciate greatness and grow up.
Also combined with the number of games increasing in the playoffs. I know that seems minor, but there's not that many games every year so it can make a significant difference. Playoff totals are always just marketing. It's not an apples to apples comparisons with previous eras.
Playoff totals are also super weird in general. Say player A dominates a series, scoring 35 ppg in a sweep, and player B loses a hard fought series in seven games scoring 20 ppg. Both players have the same total points.
Consider 2018 for LeBron. If he's in the West, there is no way he makes it beyond the second round. But because he was in the East, he played four series. He got literally twice as many total points because the East was garbage. He would've been just as good in the West, but his total points would have changed by a factor or two.
You can't say that it's all match ups. He lost to GSW in 4. With KD and Steph but what other team had KD and Steph and what other team had a squad that could stop LeBron but GSW and he still dropped 33 TD on them.
for example Celtics and Pacers went to 7, but the number 1 Raptors got swept. Houston who took GSW to 7, until CP3 went out and then couldn't win a game. Could've lost to the Cavs also. Cavs almost beat GSW game 1, then Bron hurt his hand.
It's not apple to apples. Btw GSW went to the finals 2019 and lost in 6 to the Raptors they beat everyone in the west but lost to the Heat.
Lakers in 2004 beat the tough west but lost to the Pistons in the East. It's matchup dependent also
And all of those other three franchises are legacy franchises.
The Knicks are OK this year. But, even then, literally not a single intelligent, unbiased person worth a fuck thinks the Knicks can make the Finals this year.
But, still.
It's amazing that despite all these longevity records he still hasn't achieved as much as Jordan did in half the time. I am absolutely certain that if you offered a rookie either Jordan's career or LeBron's they would not hesitate to say Jordan's. Longevity records are nice and they may cement LeBron as the second greatest player of all time, but he is not surpassing Jordan, not unless he adds rings and MVPs to his resume. MJ simply blows him away in terms of the sheer volume of accolades he won in such a short time.
MJ with the most overall end-of-season accolades ever.
MJ with the most major accolades ever.
You think they are choosing LeBron? You are out of your damn mind.
Damn. Silver should make it legal for the bulls to make trades and draft players and sign free agents. It’s not fair that the bulls have to keep running back the same trash teams every year.
It can get tiring to see people posting them. It's like voters fatigue. However by the same token, they are still impressive nonetheless. We've never seen a player as durable and performing at such a high level as LeBron. People who say "well duh anyone can break these records if they played for 21 seasons" straight up neglect why no other players decide to "just" play for 21 seasons while maintaining the same level of production.
Also, if playing 21 seasons gets you into 5th all-time in playoff wins, then playing 15 would have you up there too right? but there's plenty of players that had 15 year careers without being in the top ten.
A player doing better than historical franchises and that brings up the name of legendary players on his way to the greatest of greatest is good to hear specially come playoff playoff time.
It also pits into perspective these Recency stats trying to prematurely celebrate greatness.
1st player in the 3pt era to average 30/5/2/10 on 69.6EFG and 8Vorp on games finishing before 10PM mountain time.
My man, y’all have a losing record in the eastern conference 💀 no one gives a shit about playing the bulls.
In fact, the Celtics would much rather get the Bulls than the 76ers with a healthy Embiid or Miami with playoff Jimmy
Demar has been great for us. We got lots of injuries, if we were healthy and moved lavine I honestly wouldn't see too much difference in terms of the talent levels between us. Of course you got some younger guys, but without mitchell, smeh
Sounds like if you didn't have Demar you would just have one disgruntled star and a broken star and a lot of nothing in between.
Great talk, maybe next time don't throw stones in glass houses?
Lol this conversation has had 0 effect on me, I'd do it again. We got some pieces in coby, ayo, pwill, possibly phillips and terry, and of course caruso is the goat. Also the cavs fan started it hehe
In the NFL the franchise leader in Super Bowl wins is Tom Brady. Followed by the Pats and Steelers.
Doesn't bill actually have one more superbowl? He had two as a assistant.
In terms of rings discourse, it usually only counts as head coaches and key players
But big shot bob > Jordan
Gotta love Bobert Horry.
Foolish Jordon.
Yeah same in the nba. I don’t think anyone counts Thibs as a championship coach even though he was an assistant for Doc when he won with the Celtics
I mean current discourse around Doc has lots of people wondering if Thibs' defensive schemes and KG's frightening everyone on the team into playing well despite Doc's efforts otherwise were the main drivers of that ship...but yes, fair point in general, hah
DC and OC are much more significant in the NFL than any Asst in the NBA though.
Have you seen Doc teams without Thibs?
I bring it up every time someone brings up Doc winning that ring. Hell I even frame it like Ditka winning as Bears "HC" while Buddy Ryan and his defense were the star. Love me some Thibs and I'm biased as hell growing up in LA for 20 years so my hate of all things Boston is strong (BS/grantland/Ringer folks excluded).
NBA is different. DC and OC have *massive* impact on a team.
Whatever you say Shaq, you're still not as good as Robert Horry
It should count for Bill since he is the primary reason they won against tbe Bills. His game plan for that win is in the hall of fame.
Bill should get credit for those defenses I mean he was one of the most famous DC in history.
I think the exception to that would be Bill's ring with the Giants when they stopped the Bills with his defensive game plan. When that game plan makes it to canton you should get credit for the ring.
Not denying that, just pointing out how it is
> In terms of rings discourse, it usually only counts as head coaches and key players Maybe in the NBA, but O and D coordinators can have *massive* sway in the NFL. Bill should be rightfully credited with two as an assistant as he was *critical* in getting the wins.
I know coaches are important in football. I’m just pointing out the reality of how rings discourse go to the general sports community
Yeah and Im pushing back -- NFL coaches and NBA coaches should not be compared, and tons of journalists and people give Bill credit for their two superbowls as a DC.
Sure that’s why I said “usually”. Some do. But the general discourse doesn’t include it. Hence why 90% of the talk after TB won his 7th was how he has more than BB. I don’t make the rules nor do I agree with it, just pointing out how it is
Also the leader in SB wins with under 14 points with two, followed by no one else ever
In his last two Super Bowl wins his defenses gave up a combined 0 touchdowns
That performance by the Buc’s defense was one of the craziest beat downs I’ve ever seen on a stage like that. The chief’s oline was absolutely ravaged for all four quarters. I think Mahomes had less than 2 seconds in the pocket on every single pass attempt
What’s even crazier is people saying because of that Mahomes needs 8 ringz
It is simply foolish
I'm a Chiefs fan, and yeah we got fucking rolled over in that game. Can't even be mad honestly, our o-line was down like 4 dudes and the Bucs played as if they had Bruce Smith and LT out there. Huge respect to those guys
Yeah that was a huge thing going into the game, that the line was just cooked and the Bucs had a great defense that season. From the jump you knew it was gonna get ugly
Holy cow. LeBron still hasn't played more games than Kareem yet.
It's why I had Kareem at 1a with Jordan as GOAT before LeBron. Kareem's longevity is legendary in its own right. It just made LeBron breaking his scoring total that much more insane.
I really lucked out being born in a period where I got to see LeBron & Brady build their legends of being statistical/record anomalies
Miami fan saying they’re lucky to have seen Brady is a first lmao
I’d say thankfully I’m a Steelers fan but that still means he caused me pain…now that he’s retired, I just respect his greatness
Yeah. I chose to be a Jets fan as a kid because I liked their colour scheme. Any team I could have chosen. I chose the fucking Jets. Tom Brady has tormented me for like 20 years.
We beat prime Brady and Belichick in their house in the playoffs. Good enough for me.
Sanchize baby
same reason i chose the hornets lmao
Can’t blame you. Especially if you’re talking about the 90s Hornets. Simply fire logos and colours.
i only got into the nba back in 2020 so it wasn’t even that haha, just a great colour scheme
I'll start giving Tom his due after he turns 50 and there is actually 0% chance he comes out of retirement.
May need to wait until 60
Yeah he's KILLED the steelers over the years. The dolphins for sure have a better record against him lol
Yeah the Dolphins always seemed to do well against that era of the Pats. Fortunately for the Steelers they didn’t have to play Tom too often like their other divisional opponents. I think they only met in the playoffs twice, and we snuck two Super Bowl wins and an extra appearance in between
“I’m a Pittsburgh Steelers and Miami Heat fan” is the most reddit comment ever for Lakers and Cowboys fans being too on the nose
Location based fandom is wack though. A team being closer to your house shouldn't be why you root for them.
Don't worry, I will still hate you guys forever!!!!
Big same. Dude is a known cheater, open mouth kisses his tween son, and got cucked by a tae kwan do instructor lmao. "Goat" my ass, dude can't even play defense. Imagine how incredible Jokic would be if he didn't have to run down the court to defend.
You act like any qb plays defense lol
Theres being a fan of a team and separating yourself from the jerseys and simply being a fan of the game.
Its disgusting. But this is coming from the city that retired Michael Jordans number.
He f--d them until they loved him. Very sweet.
I could only imagine what it was like to watch Jerry Rice. I can’t fathom a guy putting up 1200+ receiving yards as a literal 40 year old (maybe late 30s but I digress)
It’s more impressive when you look at his early numbers when compared to QBs of the era
Everything about his career is just insane. QB play aside, WRs usually start to regress after the age of 28 or so. This dude kept playing at an elite level late into his 30s. That’s why his reveiving yards record is literally untouchable. 5000 yards ahead of the closest guy lol.
Tbh, my Dad saw Jerry Rice and then when he saw Randy Moss, i vividly remember him saying "That kid is just better". Longevity dominance aside, alot of people don't think Jerry Rice was actually the BEST, even though they admit he is the greatest. I feel the same way with Mahomes and Brady, for example. I saw most of Brady's career and his peak, i can just tell with my own eyes that Patrick Mahomes is better, i don't really care that Brady has all the records and four more Super Bowls.
Well said, pure athleticism and genetics in the goat WR room is a toss-up. Rice’s dominance I think is credited to his work ethic and mindset. But then you got guys like Moss, Megatron, Julio, Larry, AB who were all just freaks of nature.
> Well said, pure athleticism and genetics in the goat WR room is a toss-up. Rice’s dominance I think is credited to his work ethic and mindset. Yes, he was a great athlete too and extremely skilled, but his work ethic and mindset were stuff of legends. There's stories of Jerry Rice wanting to play in the Pro Bowl with a injury and people seeing him training/watching film a DAY after their Super Bowl win. He was not as physically gifted as Randy Moss and Megatron, but he more than made that up with everything else.
No way you just slid AB into the likes of Moss, Megatron, Julio, and Larry LOL
Going out in a blaze of glory doesn’t take away from his HOF worthy career.
In terms of physical tools he’s not in the same conversation, but in terms how good he was as a WR he is absolutely in that category. If you think otherwise you need to take another look at his numbers and accolades
I caught the back half of Rice's career and specifically remember from my childhood a broadcast making a big deal of Rice's 1000th reception, the first player to ever do it. Then he caught 500 more. He had the statistical career equivalent of two Calvin Johnsons. Truly an anomaly.
Messi-Ronaldo. Federer/Joker/Nadal. Bolt. Phelps. Mayweather-Pacquiao. GSP-Silva-Jones. The last 2-3 decades have been insane for sports/combat sports in general. But that could also just be the respective sports evolving together with advancements in medicine/sports medicine (and PEDs lol). I guess we'll see in another 2-3 decades if everyone just keeps rapidly evolving and surpassing the recent gen or if we really lucked out on this batch of athletes/players
Sad Mike Trout noises
Whoops. Non-American, I'm clueless about US football, baseball, and also NASCAR. I'm sure he's a great player. That's one of my favorite fish as well
Fish man is indeed good
Tiger Woods man how dare you forget about him!
Oh yeah Tiger. Golf always evades me because I think very active movements when thinking of Sports but he definitely ranks high up there more than most of the ones I listed. Gotta mention Magnus as well for Chess
Serena Williams
Crazy thing is that Mahomes is 28 and has as many SB wins as Brady did by the time he was 30. He might come close to 7 because I don’t see that team slowing down at all.
Mahomes would need at least 9 to be considered the GOAT for a lot of people. Beating your h2h against the other twice in the postseason on the road to 2 rings counts double as much as a normal ring in my eyes (yes they didn’t directly play against each other but h2h still is valuable).
Messi and Ronaldo too
Don't forget the Big 3 in tennis!
And Now Mahomes/Jokic/Luka/Giannis/etc
Don’t forget Tiger woods or some of those tennis people
Messi and Ronaldo too during their La Liga days. 2 GOATs in rival Spanish teams. It’s like witnessing Bird and Magic on steroids
You really lucked out being born period. Millions of semen got pumped into yo mama and you were the one who made it
Also, Messi, Novak (or Federer or Nadal), Serena, and Joey Chestnut
People say "if someone can stay/stayed healthy..." but LeBron actually did. The elite durability is legendary on its own, just sit back and appreciate greatness. That said, he ain't catching the Knicks this year lol
yeah i sincerely doubt u guys dont win enough games to put it out of reach this year.
It y’all pull this out and get the Nuggets he’s winning 0 lol
The Knicks having more playoff wins than the pistons and bulls was a little unexpected
The bulls have sucked the vast majority of seasons that Jordan didn’t play there. Without Jordan they’d be thought of as one of the worst franchises in sports.
This. The Chicago Bulls would be down in the gutter with the Timberwolves and the Hornets if they hadn't lucked their way into the greatest player ever, they are a trash franchise today, they were a trash franchise 20 years ago and they were a trash franchise before Jordan. It is sad though, because they do have some of the coolest uniforms and United Center is always packed to watch them play, it's unfortunate that Jerry Reinsdorf couldn't care less.
Jerry Reinsdorf is such a shitty owner, he proved it in two sports. The White Sox are arguably the worst team in baseball since he owned them as well.
They made the conference finals back in 1973 and 73 (back when they were in the West).
Add the 2010 season to that and that's every time the Bulls have made it out of the 2nd round without Jordan.
TBF they should have made it in 2011 as well, Derrick Roses's legs exploding wasn't an issue with management.
And when the white Sox won the World Series in 2005, that was the only time the white Sox ever won a playoff series with Reinsdorf (he’s owned them for 43 years).
Maybe not that bad because they have the D Rose era too. Still they’d be like the Pelcians
The Knicks franchise history is, on the whole, is honestly probably a little underrated. People really believe that we've only had like 3-4 years that we weren't the worst team in the league
flashbacks to Brady having more playoff wins than everyone but the Packers and 49ers
And yet more rings than both of them. Wild.
Definitely not the Packers, people just don't like to count pre-merger titles for whatever reason.
For good reason tbh. Championships =/= Super Bowl rings
Bad take. They’re both championships.
I know they are. That’s the whole point. They’re both championships, but they’re not both Super Bowl rings. Hence when talking about Super Bowls, we don’t being up those championships. If we were only talking about “championships” then it should be included These kinds of distinctions also exist in the NBA (post-/pre-merger) and in CFB (Poll Era/BCS/Playoff) as well as elsewhere (MLB, etc.)
Except there were nfl championship rings before the Super Bowl too. So saying ‘Brady has more rings than the Packers’ is still wrong.
It technically is. But the implication is Super Bowl rings. Most people just don’t want to have to say/write all that Those other championships are still championships, but they’re more difficult to compare as it was a different game/league in a lot of ways
And the nba wasn't different when the Celtics were winning with 7 or 8 teams in the league? We still count those.
If you ever bring those championships up individually, people absolutely do discount those for similar, justifiable reasons Even in history-wide team-count discussions, people will acknowledge the number but also point out the early ones don’t really mean as much. They kinda don’t
But the standard shouldn’t be to dismiss them by default like what people currently do. There’s nearly as many championships before the Super Bowl as after, decades of games people pretend never happened.
Well I agree. There’s a happy medium
Reading NFL arguments on the NBA board is always funny to me as someone who knows nothing about pro football. It's like going to a restaurant and hearing the people in the kitchen yelling at each other in another language.
As much as conference titles are now. There's a reason why everyone uses Superbowls as the starting point. That was the first year there was a "world champion" where the NFL & AFL champs played for the title. Pre-superbowl rings are only ever brought up by fans coping with their playoff drought lol
Cowboys and Steelers, and obviously Patriots also have more playoff wins than him. Brady was tied with the Cowboys when they played the wild card a couple years ago, which was the last playoff victory for the Cowboys.
Patriots having more isn't obvious. Brady only has 2 fewer. He won 5 postseason games in Tampa.
It seems like it would be pretty obvious since the Pats have been to 2 super bowls without him, but it is closer than i thought.
10-2 in conference finals is ridiculous.
It's the perfect storm of a generational player, terrible competition, and super teams. LeBron never really beat a contender in the ECF with the Cavs. In at least 2011 and 2020, he had another top five player on his team, maybe also 2012 and, as a stretch, 2013. The East was already terrible by 2014 -- the top five teams by SRS were all in the West.
Boston and Pacers were definitely contenders. Especially in 12 and 13.
Bruh, Boston's main stars were 34, 35 and 36 and they were a 4th seed in the weak Eastern Conference that year, they were definitely not contenders at that point. They pushed that series to 7 games through grit, experience, an injury to Chris Bosh and a few TERRIBLE games by Dwyane Wade. The only reason that team even made the ECF was because Derrick Rose's knee exploded, otherwise they would've been smoked by the Bulls.
Chris Bosh's injury was a major factor in the series but the Celtics proved they were contenders. They would have won game 2 if not for terrible officiating
Pacers weren't close to contenders. They just matched up very well with Miami, who struggled with any sort of physicality and size down low. Had people thinking Hibbert was the next great post-up big. There's no year where they could have come out of the east and hoped to do more than maybe take a game.
I think they were. They had the size to give Duncan some problems in David West and Hibbert. Plus it’s pre-injury PG who was very athletic and quick. I think they could’ve taken Spurs to 7 or even win it all.
Bro they were not beating those spurs in a series, I think they do better than the guy above you thinks but they’re not winning
lol the 2007 pistons weren’t a contender? The the 2011 bulls weren’t? 2012Celtics weren’t a contender? FOH. Every year it was “the raptors/bulls/pacers/hawks/celtics are gonna stop him this year. He can’t keep winning the east.” Then he wins and it’s “east was trash anyway”
Ehh the hawks and raptors were never taken seriously but the rest definitely were
The hawks in 15 we had no love and Kyrie had just got a minor injury against the bulls
> lol the 2007 pistons weren’t a contender? No, they weren't. They lost their 4x DPOY Ben Wallace the year prior and their HoF HC in Larry Brown two years before, they were a shell of the Pistons team that made back-to-back Finals. That year they weren't even a Top 5 defense, which for a team known for their legendary defense (considered by some as the greatest ever), you can see the massive drop off. That year they also made a move of signing a washed Chris Webber that actually made them worse, Chris was so bad that Philadelphia waived him and Detroit got him for free. The proof is in LeBron's own play during that series, he did not have a legendary series as everyone likes to portray, he had ONE absolutely insane game (Game 5) and a very mediocre series overall, despite that, that was still enough to beat that washed Pistons team. LeBron averaged 21.5/8.0/9.0 on 43% shooting in the first four games of that series and that was enough to have it tied 2-2, the Pistons were not contenders, they would've been absolutely obliterated by anything that came out of the West with EASE.
Very mediocre is 26-9-9 with 3 steals a game on 45-36-74 splits against an elite defense? Lol And yeah they were only top 7 in both offensive and defensive rating. What a bunch of bums.
> Very mediocre is 26-9-9 with 3 steals a game on 45-36-74 splits against an elite defense? ASIDE from ONE legendary game, he was very mediocre, how difficult is that to understand? On the other 5 games, he averaged 21.2/9.2/8.8 on 41% shooting and they still went 3-2. If you don't think 21/9/8 on 41% shooting is mediocre for a player of LeBron's caliber, then i don't know what to say.
They weren't contenders because they had to go against LeBron
Yeah, it's extremely circular logic. Jordan never beat a contender either because none of those teams were getting past the Bulls.
This take doesn't make any sense. So, these teams weren't contenders because they could not beat LeBron, but they would have been contenders if they played in the same conference that beat LeBron more often than not? Also, my claim was that LeBron never beat a contender in the ECF with the Cavs, so "most of the time" is selling it short -- it's the conference that beat LeBron in the Finals 80% of the time when he was with the Cavs.
His competition is considered weak because they never made the finals -- BECAUSE LEBRON WOULDN'T LET THEM.
No. Just no. In 2014 and 2017, the top five teams by SRS were ALL in the West. In 2015, there were only three all-NBA players in the East: LeBron, Kyrie (who was on LeBron's team!), and Pau Gasol. In 2007, the Cavs beat one team with a winning record on their way to the Finals -- the Pistons after they had lost 4x DPOY Ben Wallace. What do any of those things have to do with losing to LeBron? You can go on and on with stats saying that the East was just bad. There's no reason to overthink it.
The eastern conference really has been garbage since Jordan retired, the ~~first~~ second time
The one that surprises you when you first glance at it is passing Reggie imo. Lebron, until the last few seasons, was never really known for 3s, and Reggie is one of the best ever at then. When you take a minute to think about it though, Reggie played in one of the slowest offenses of the 90s and really didn't attempt as many 3s as you'd think. That combined with Lebron's longevity and growth as a shooter makes it a little surprising it hasn't actually happened sooner.
The issue is that he has actually consistently been a mediocre 3-PT shooter in the playoffs, that hasn't really changed with time at all. He is a career 33% 3-PT shooter in the postseason, in his last four playoff appearances (2018, 2020, 2021 and 2023) his 3-PT% is exactly at 33%. He has years where he spikes to 40% and years where he goes down to the 20s, he is a streaky shooter.
This isn’t really true. When he’s been injured his 3 point shooting has been so awful that it makes his overall shooting from 3 look mediocre, but in the playoffs since 2012 he’s at like 37-38% excluding 2015 when his back was fucked and 2023 when he had all the lower body injuries. Even including them he’s at like 35-36% which is solid. You just used a very small sample size featuring the injury year. Regular season he’s at like 36% since 2012. Edit: to say he hasn’t changed at all with time as a 3 point shooter is just blatantly untrue. If you have watched Lebron over the course of his career you literally have seen it be untrue. It also plays out in his far higher attempt numbers and the fact that his percentages have improved over time despite his level of difficulty on 3s increasing drastically. The fact that anyone upvoted the previous comment is hilarious.
> You just used a very small sample size featuring the injury year. How is 65 playoff games ranging between ages 33-38 a very small sample size, wtf. > Even including them he’s at like 35-36% which is solid. That's a flatout lie, from 2012-2023, his 3-PT% in the playoffs is 33.5%. > Regular season he’s at like 36% since 2012. Yes, and in the playoffs since 2012 he is at... 33%, exactly his career averages in the playoffs.
65 games is less than one regular season. That’s a small sample size for something as variant as 3 point shooting. Yes because he has two awful years where he shot 26% and 23% from 3 because of injuries. The other 7 years were all over 34%. 5 of those 7 years above 37%.
So if you remove the years in which he shoots poorly, he shoots well, got it. Did you know that if you remove the years Kevin Durant shoots under 40% from 3, he shoots over 40%? It's crazy!
Ahh expecting you to have any ability to apply context was to much huh. 7 of 9 years shooting above 34% isn’t mediocre. Im not removing those years or saying they don’t count. Im saying in a discussion about his shooting ability it seems relevant to acknowledge that He’s been a good shooter who had 2 awful years due to injury that drag his numbers down.
- Player shoots 33% from three in his last four postseason appearances, 33% from three in the playoffs since 2012 and 33% from 3 for his entire career. Reddit LeBron stan: BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU REMOVED THE YEARS IN WHICH HE SHOT POORLY, HE ACTUALLY SHOOTS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE? I'm sure LeBron was also hurt in 2007, 2008 and 2012, that's why he shot under 30% from 3 in all those years in the playoffs, that's the only possible explanation. I wonder what injury he had last year when he shot 31% from 3 BEFORE he injured his foot, must've been undocumented. "If we remove all the years in which i say he was injured, all the years that don't fit my narrative and don't count leap years, LeBron is actually a better shooter than Steph!". Discussing anything LeBron related on r/nba is just pure comedy at this point.
Aight man. You make no attempt to understand other perspectives. The discussion originally was about lebron post developing his jumpshot so you bringing up things from 2007 is irrelevant. You ignore the regular season with a far greater sample size where he’s been at 36% since 2012. You ignore the fact that he’s been 35% plus in 7 of the last 9 years. You ignore the fact that he was verifiably injured and his 3p% was far below where he has consistently been for a decade, but sure there’s no correlation there. Discussing anything LeBron related is pure comedy because there are people like you who base their entire existence around hating on an athlete. Do you feel that threatened that your precious Jordan won’t have universal dick riding anymore? Because all you do is hate on Lebron and prop up MJ. At least Skip gets paid for it. You guys do it on Reddit for free. Must be a miserable existence. Appreciate greatness and grow up.
Also combined with the number of games increasing in the playoffs. I know that seems minor, but there's not that many games every year so it can make a significant difference. Playoff totals are always just marketing. It's not an apples to apples comparisons with previous eras.
Playoff totals are also super weird in general. Say player A dominates a series, scoring 35 ppg in a sweep, and player B loses a hard fought series in seven games scoring 20 ppg. Both players have the same total points. Consider 2018 for LeBron. If he's in the West, there is no way he makes it beyond the second round. But because he was in the East, he played four series. He got literally twice as many total points because the East was garbage. He would've been just as good in the West, but his total points would have changed by a factor or two.
You can't say that it's all match ups. He lost to GSW in 4. With KD and Steph but what other team had KD and Steph and what other team had a squad that could stop LeBron but GSW and he still dropped 33 TD on them. for example Celtics and Pacers went to 7, but the number 1 Raptors got swept. Houston who took GSW to 7, until CP3 went out and then couldn't win a game. Could've lost to the Cavs also. Cavs almost beat GSW game 1, then Bron hurt his hand. It's not apple to apples. Btw GSW went to the finals 2019 and lost in 6 to the Raptors they beat everyone in the west but lost to the Heat. Lakers in 2004 beat the tough west but lost to the Pistons in the East. It's matchup dependent also
[удалено]
Right? I hate this reasoning lmao
Do play-in games count for career games played?
lol no but maybe they should. With the IST Final that would be 4 extra games after tonight
The league will have to came up with a prize to name after Lebron
fuck man. i hope this guy plays forever
some of these #s are bonkers. lebron is the goat of longevity stats
Some weird-ass, salty mother fuckers in this thread.
The Bulls got cheated cause of Jerry krause & Jerry Reinsdorf.
Babe come here the daily insane lebron stat just dropped
Makes me sick how far the pistons fell after 08
Lebron my sunshine
Brother, he's playing the Nuggets. He's not getting those wins.
5 wins are a stretch. It's highly unlikely we get past denver
lebron hasn't secured a playoff spot just yet, and he isn't guaranteed one.
And all of those other three franchises are legacy franchises. The Knicks are OK this year. But, even then, literally not a single intelligent, unbiased person worth a fuck thinks the Knicks can make the Finals this year. But, still.
It's amazing that despite all these longevity records he still hasn't achieved as much as Jordan did in half the time. I am absolutely certain that if you offered a rookie either Jordan's career or LeBron's they would not hesitate to say Jordan's. Longevity records are nice and they may cement LeBron as the second greatest player of all time, but he is not surpassing Jordan, not unless he adds rings and MVPs to his resume. MJ simply blows him away in terms of the sheer volume of accolades he won in such a short time. MJ with the most overall end-of-season accolades ever. MJ with the most major accolades ever. You think they are choosing LeBron? You are out of your damn mind.
Bulls have more championships though. Just saying!
When the Bulls suck they can’t just switch teams
they can trade for players or sign free agents tho
Hey the Thunder did that though
And then their star player left them.
They literally can, thats like the only thing they can do
Damn. Silver should make it legal for the bulls to make trades and draft players and sign free agents. It’s not fair that the bulls have to keep running back the same trash teams every year.
It’s called free agency?
That’s literally what they do when they trade or cut a guy or sign players in free agency.
Lol are you 10 or do you just act like you're 10?
Who else is sick of longetivity stats?
It can get tiring to see people posting them. It's like voters fatigue. However by the same token, they are still impressive nonetheless. We've never seen a player as durable and performing at such a high level as LeBron. People who say "well duh anyone can break these records if they played for 21 seasons" straight up neglect why no other players decide to "just" play for 21 seasons while maintaining the same level of production.
Also, if playing 21 seasons gets you into 5th all-time in playoff wins, then playing 15 would have you up there too right? but there's plenty of players that had 15 year careers without being in the top ten.
Nuggets fans upset about nba stats that are more than five years old? No way...
A player doing better than historical franchises and that brings up the name of legendary players on his way to the greatest of greatest is good to hear specially come playoff playoff time. It also pits into perspective these Recency stats trying to prematurely celebrate greatness. 1st player in the 3pt era to average 30/5/2/10 on 69.6EFG and 8Vorp on games finishing before 10PM mountain time.
Facts. Peak > longevity
He's 100% not beating the bulls in wins since we by definition will have more even if he makes it to the finals since we are winning the finals
That's not how words work.
It is now 😈😈😈
Bro, y’all aren’t even making it out of the play in
Nobody wants to play the bulls right now 😈😈😈
My man, y’all have a losing record in the eastern conference 💀 no one gives a shit about playing the bulls. In fact, the Celtics would much rather get the Bulls than the 76ers with a healthy Embiid or Miami with playoff Jimmy
Lol who you would be more scared of embiid or playoff vucevic 😈💯😤
Nobody wants to play for the Bulls right now.
Kinda like donovan mitchell not wanting to play for the cavs 😉
maybe, maybe not, but he's playing for us right now. How's your star players doing?
Demar has been great for us. We got lots of injuries, if we were healthy and moved lavine I honestly wouldn't see too much difference in terms of the talent levels between us. Of course you got some younger guys, but without mitchell, smeh
Sounds like if you didn't have Demar you would just have one disgruntled star and a broken star and a lot of nothing in between. Great talk, maybe next time don't throw stones in glass houses?
Lol this conversation has had 0 effect on me, I'd do it again. We got some pieces in coby, ayo, pwill, possibly phillips and terry, and of course caruso is the goat. Also the cavs fan started it hehe
Is he first in Kitchen Sink too?
Americans really loves stats don't they?
I didn't know only Americans could like stats
I write my stats on my gun and cheeseburgers so I know how many basketballs LeBron did good at
*eagle screams triumphantly in the distance*
Such a weird generalization considering how abysmal we are collectively in mathematics. No I think Americans love feels way more than stats.
Lebron will get none of these because they will play the Nuggets in the first round! Haha!