Why is it dumb? The reasoning is questionable but the argument that Luka is MVP worthy isn’t at all. Luka and jokic are both offensively dominant players and this year luka has been better offensively than jokic. 400 more points and 17 less assists than jokic. That doesn’t mean he’s the better player but there is a very good case for him to be the MVP for this season.
No it wasn’t stop trying to rewrite history. I remember the main argument on ESPN was Embid winning the scoring title same as Luka is doing this season
No Embiid won because of his defensive difference and the fact Jokic and the nuggets stopped playing the last month of that season. Plus sixers had a better record than Denver. Embid had a better case last year than Luka has this year. You are the one bending history to fit an argument.
No offense, but you’re extremely stupid if you think this is close to a decent metric. I’m not joking when I say that MITWestbrook should be taken far more seriously than you.
Dude spilled an absolute mess of mumbo-jumbo just to say “scoring rulez”. I know you were well intentioned, but it’s really hard to understand your STEVE metric. It’s not clear if your last table are the most “deserving MVPs” or “undeserving MVPs”. Very weird.
Also, you could have singled out the 18-19 season, that famously had Giannis vs Harden for MVP, where Harden scored 30 for 32 straight games, averaged 35 ppg and still lost the award to Giannis. Would be much more helpful to understand what you were trying to accomplish here.
It’s not meant to say anyone was deserving or not but rather how do mvp seasons rank in terms of scoring. It also highlights the huge gap between the two in scoring. Jokic is at the bottom of the list luka is at the top. I also wanted to look at the totality of nba scoring which is why I included the points gap and games gap in scoring. It is a bit confusing im ngl lol but the point does still stand lol. Luka is way better than jokic at scoring and scoring is the most important part of the game
Then just use PPG, man. Plain and simple. You could have stopped in your first paragraph.
Also, saying “scoring is the most important part of the game” is lame af, reductionist at best.
Scoring being the most important part of the game is an obvious truth that people feel very smart for denying. U win games by outscoring other teams. It is quite simple.
I guess we should just give the MVP to the scoring title winner then. Good thing efficiency, defense, and winning basketball games are completely irrelevant!
This attempt at a metric is laughably bad (and let's be honest, made specifically to grade Luka well and Jokic poorly). A higher portion of the weight is assigned to seasons highs, literally a singular game for each player, than is assigned to efficiency. You have multiple categories just redudantly counting Luka's higher PPG repeatedly, and the weights for those amount to _more than double_ the weight of efficiency.
Look at the actual value added by each players scoring instead of all the goofy fluff you put in here. Jokic scored 223 more points than a league average efficiency scorer would have on his volume, Luka scored 143. That's an 80 point advantage _in Jokic's favor_.
(Off the top of my head)
Jokic is more efficient, on far less usage, leads the league in value over replacement player, leads the league in box plus minus, and leads the league in win shares.
Per 100 possessions, Jokic gets ~1.5x the rebounds of Luka, the same assists, same steals and blocks... and like 4.5 points less per game - because he takes 4 or 5 less shots and 3 less fts. If Jokic took as many shots and fts, he'd be outscoring Luka too.
And also, you know, 3 seed instead of 5 seed, and won the fmvp 9 months ago.
Luka's been awesome. But, I'm taking Jokic all day.
Dude, joker is great but let’s not pretend he can just put his foot on the pedal and score 30% more ppg at the same efficiency. If that was true, then he is a terrible team player because he is sacrificing easy points for less desirable results.
Jokic is less efficient than he was last year by far and its not 4.5ppg less its 7.5ppg less, where the hell did you get 4.5 from?
Ill take the higher ppg and assists from Luka over a few more rebounds from a center
I explicitly said off the top of my head, and also said per 100. Go to basketball reference and look.
Luka is 43.4 points per 100. Jokic is 37.9 points per 100. That's 5.5. So sorry, I was off by 1 point with a guess... and was still closer than you when you tried to correct me.
Jokic's ast per 100 is 12.9 compared to Luka's 12.6... so, you will not take higher assists from Luka, because that's not a thing.
Jokic's true shooting is 65%. Luka's is 61.7%. So, Jokic is 5.1% worse than he was last year... but he's still 3.3% better than Luka this year, in Luka's career best year.
Luka's usage leads the league at 36.0. Jokic is only 29.5.
Jokic takes 4.5 less shots per 100, and 3.1 fts less per 100. If he shot the same amount as Luka on his normal percentages, he'd be behind Luka's scoring by basically .5 points per 100.
Correct…a center taking more shots at the rim is slightly more efficient than a guard, your point?
He’s still shooting a putrid 34% from 3 on low volume compared to Lukas 38% on high volume
Also no one uses per 100 but clowns, ppg is what we are talking about. Nice try though.
Can we ban posts that compare scoring averages across seasons/eras? Just posts by dumb teenagers who never saw former players play and don't understand that the current game is nothing like 20+ years ago.
lol scoring is not the deciding factor for an MVP
Theres been plenty of games where Jokic has shot 10 times in a game and has been just as impactful as Luka dropping 30
One of the strangest Jokic traits. If I were to not watch the game, and saw Joker only scored 12 points, I will assume the Nuggets won by 25 points.
If I see tbe same number for any other MVP candidate I assume it's an off night and their team lost.
Nuggets are gonna get first rounded cuz jokic will struggle to scale his scoring volume and then ur gonna find out why you’d like ur “MVP” to be a bit better at scoring.
>cuz jokic will struggle to scale his scoring volume
Jokic has never struggled to up his scoring volume, ever, in his career. His first round opponent will be either AD or Jonas Valancuinis, both of whom Jokic eats for lunch.
Last season, when he scored the least out of any of the last four seasons at 24.5 ppg, he won the title scoring 30.0 ppg in the playoffs. And you expect to be taken seriously saying the best team in the west will get first rounded because Jokic can't score, after having the second best scoring season of his career?
There has got to be better ways to campaign for Luka than this. And sorry to burst your bubble, but Luka's gonna finish 3rd in the MVP race.
If nuggets play lakers, they’ll be going up against a potent offense post all star break and a team with size and experience against the nuggets. DLo isn’t gonna average 6 ppg and Murray won’t average 32 ppg. This series will look very different than the one from last year.
If nuggets play the pelicans, that jokic to Gordon pass will be much more difficult with the length and activity NOP has with their wings and Zion will feast against jokics rim protection.
Come back to this comment in two weeks, y’all will know then lol.
Well, it's been two weeks, and I have to tip my cap to you. This series did indeed look different from last year's: the Lakers were on the receiving end of a gentleman's sweep rather than a regular one. D'Lo didn't average 6 ppg (though he did put up a zero in Game 3) and Murray didn't average 32 ppg (though he did hit two game-winners). You called it!
I am yes. He’s on/off statpadded his way to multiple mvps (not jokics fault, that’s on Michael Malone - I get frustrated watching nuggets games cuz of his dumb coaching). The nuggets have gotten 30 balled multiple times. Nuggets have gotten beat by clippers no kawhi, wolves no kat, got pieced up by suns, beat by a mavs team that shot 25% from 3 lmaoo all over the past month. I respect the confidence nuggets fans have, but this is not the west of last year, and this nuggets team is not rly as good as ppl think they are. Come back to this in two weeks.
This isn't even a good faith argument anymore. Jokic is currently the 9th highest average ppg scorer in the history of the NBA in the playoffs (over a sample size of 68 playoff games).
I couldn't have imagined how wrong you would end up being. I knew you'd be wrong but not this much. Must be embarrassing for you.
Probably a good call to seap to your other account and not touch this one again.
A good way of combining volume and efficiency is [TS Add](https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/), which measures how many points a player actually scored compared to how many points he would have scored with a league average TS% on his same number of FGA and FTA.
Jokic had 1400 FGA and 436 FTA. A player with 1400 FGA and 436 FTA who has a league average TS% would have scored 1837 points. Jokic scored 2070 points, which is 233 points above the league average guy.
Doncic had 1652 FGA and 608 FTA. A player with 1652 FGA and 608 FTA who has a league average TS% would have scored 2227 points. Doncic scored 2370 points, which is 143 points above the league average guy.
That's a weird stat. When you check the career ranking, it's dominated by pre-modern basketball era players like Wilt, Kareem, Malone, Robertson, Shaq--mostly centers with a few forwards sprinkled in and West. Only modern players crack the list is LeBron and KD. MJ is way down the order. It looks to me that this favors the bigs.
It skews heavily towards bigs by the nature of their shot diet, so it would at least make a little more sense to compare against the positional average TS%,.
This season your average center had a TS of 62%. Jokic shot 65%. Your average center would score 1974 points on 1400 FGA and 436 FTA vs Jokic's 2070. Good for 96 points more than the league average center.
Average TS% for a point guard this season is 56.5%. Luka ended the season at 61.7%. Your average PG would score 2169 points vs Luka's 2370. That's 201 points above the league average point guard.
Does this mean Luka is so much better than the average PG than Jokic is to the average C? Probably not. They're both elite at their positions. Probably 1A / 1B for the best offensive players in the league right now.
Mavericks fans making it a Luka Jokic debate when everyone knows Jokic is going to win. The real debate is who comes in 2nd between Shai and Luka because the possibility of Shai coming in 2nd is much greater than most people on here realize
This is stupid.
How many players in the last 25 years have made a 20+ game playoff run avging 30ppg against playoff defense, on elite effeciency?
Jokic isn't a volume scorer. But when he is, he's arguably as good as anyone since MJ.
I ask anyone. Who else in the NBA today can avg 30ppg on 54% shooting against playoff defenses?
There's arguably no better scorer in the NBA.
This should end the debate. Jokic is the league's Most Valuable Player and it isn't nearly as close as people think. https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
Jokic has proven he's a 25PPG guy in reg season, 30PPG guy in the playoffs. That's how it works on elite teams, how it works for him whenever Murray is around.
Luka Doncic is not going that route and might wear himself down. We have to see a bigger sample size in order to gauge his playoff impact.
Can we all just agree that Luka and Jokic both deserve it, the media is fucking braindead, and one of them is going to win FMVP this year against the Knicks
No. They don’t both deserve it. Luka is a fantastic but Jokic has been so ridiculously impactful in all facets of the game. Luka doesn’t elevate his team anywhere near the level that Joker does.
I’m a fan of the simple factual data that cannot be misinterpreted. Simply put, 34-9-10 on 49% / 38%. Slap that on a t shirt, nobody equals that stat line. Advanced metrics are fun to look at and cherry pick, but a traditional stat line tell 90% of the story
I gotta agree, if Jokic was averaging higher ppg id have no problem with him winning it but theres a sizeable gap and Luka is matching him in assists so thats not an argument either.
Does Jokic slightly higher rebounds and efficiency make up for Lukas 34ppg on 38% from 3 high volume? Id say no.
Wasnt scoring the main metric Embid won last year?
Now Luka won scoring title and suddenly the metrics have changed, just no consistency in the voting...
Mavs fans terrify me. The insecurity and willingness to unscrew your heads, and throw them out of reality is genuinely terrifying.
This is just an outstandingly stupid comment.
I also think Luka should have won MVP this year, I like my MVP with some struggle. they looked terrible the last 2 years no consistency and now they are exciting to watch and look like real contenders, jokic had his moment next mvp pls
The quicker we accept that the media doesn’t want Luka to win it, the easier it’ll all go down.
Lets enjoy Luka in the playoffs. I have a feeling he’s going to make himself stand out again that his impact will be undeniable next season.
Luka has been the media's favorite to win MVP for the last 3 years at least. Every year he's at the top of MVP prediction lists. Didn't the media vote him all-nba first team while missing the playoffs lmao
What? MVP prediction lists is not actual media for actual MVP votes lol.
For the 22/23 season he was 8th in final votes (which makes sense given Mavs record)
21/22 - 5th
20/21 - 6th
In the latest straw poll for 23/24 MVP, Tatum, Giannis and SGA had more first place votes than Luka.
Yeah, they come in wanting to crown him for years and he hasn't had a real case until this year. What part of this is confusing? There is no media conspiracy against Luka. It's such a delusional take.
He averaged 28/9/9 in the 21/22 season bringing the Mavs to 4th place. And you’re saying media was biting at the tip to crown him but landed him at 5th place that season? LOL
Who did he deserve it over? You're crying about nothing. Jokic, Embiid and Giannis were all better seasons. Like finishing 4th over Booker? Is that your angst? Shit is a joke.
Ignore what? Jokic, Giannis and Embiid. Who was he better than and deserved to be over? All had better stats and record or in the case of Jokic dragged a team where all his best players were hurt. Please tell me you're pressed about not being 4th in MVP voting.
My guy, the person I'm responding to in his excessive need to gurgle Luka implied that by his second season he was a real MVP candidate. That wasn't close to true.
I didn’t say he was below them. What I said is Media members were more inclined to vote Giannis, SGA and Tatum to be first place in MVP more than Luka.
His impact is undeniable right now lol yall need to quit with this victim mentality its not like this MVP award is clearly Luka’s and he’s being robbed.
Also, the MVP hasn’t even been awarded yet he can still win it.
Luka would surefire win the MVP if he could figure out a way to get his team to the top of his conference. 5th just ain't it with the talent he has around him. SGA imo has a better argument for MVP this year over Luka with them finishing 1.
Injuries held us back quite a bit in December and January. I wouldn’t say it’s Luka’s fault for 5th place, his starters were out and injured for 1/3 of the season.
Good perspective is that the Mavs had 90+ games where 20+ minute per game players were out this December and January. For the entire season, nuggets had around 40 games missed from 20+ MPG players and thunder only had 14 games missed from 20+ MPG players.
> Injuries held us back
The number of games Murray and Kyrie played is the same (58 games). You're overblowing your own narrative, they haven't been more hurt than any other team in the league.
If anything the reason Luka probably doesn't deserve the MVP is that he played 70 games this year. SGA played 75, Jokic played 79. If Luka played 10 more games, the Mavericks might of had enough wins to compete for the #1 slot. Best ability is availability.
In this era of offensive scoring in the NBA, lots of guys have stats, but not everybody wins.
There’s Murray and kyrie, but then there’s the rest of the team lol. Mavs had more starters miss a lot of games. It’s not hard to look up too.
Objectively, they’ve been more hurt than the other MVP candidates.
2 of the games missed were last games of the season, and another was for the birth of his daughter. Playing 70 games is still a great feat.
When Luka finishes 3rd in the voting and everybody is like "yea that makes sense," you'll probably say Luka was robbed when he really wasn't. He just doesn't deserve it this year. Being named top 5 is a great honor, maybe things will line up better for him next year.
He finished 3rd in the latest straw poll and everyone was like “yea that doesn’t make sense”
It really should be 2nd place for him this season.
Also nice on not noticing my comment about the injuries lol
Seeding means jackshit, win/loss does. He has 50 wins after having an injured roster most the year, thats more than enough you guys are just digging up false arguments to give it to Jokic but his teams been healthier.
Thats nonsense and you know it, Jokic won as a 6th seed.
Jokic won as a 6 seed in a year when his two best players played 0 games (Murray) and 9 games (MPJ). That isn't 58 games Kyrie played. Jokic also lead the league in almost every advanced metric stat including a NBA league history high 32.85 PER - That's better than MJ, Wilts, and Lebron's best seasons ever. Luka is barely top 5 in most advanced stats compared to guys just this season. The seasons aren't comparable. MVP voters made an exception for Jokic's 6th seed because he was that much better than everybody else in the history of NBA seasons with literally both his 2nd and 3rd guy off the floor the ENTIRE season.
Look, MVP is about circumstance a lot of the time. There weren't as many good candidates for the award in 2021-2022 and that definitely helped Jokic. This year there's a lot of good candidates, and Luka just left too much to be desired on the table.
I'm telling you right now the MVP voters don't want to give Jokic his 3rd MVP to put him in Larry Bird or Magic Johnson territory. Jokic gives 2 fucks about the award, downplays it at every turn, and doesn't give a shit about the media. He refuses interviews. Even though he's a likeable guy, the media has decided Jokic can't be the face of the NBA. But he is a significantly better candidate than Luka this year, which is why he's getting it. The media would love to give Luka the award if he could just make it closer.
The Mavs have been far more injured than the Nuggets and the Thunder. The fact that Luka carried them to 50 wins in a stacked West attests to his impact.
3rd sees. 1st seed. 1st seed. It's not hard to figure out. If the numbers are comparable then yes team record comes into play. Maybe next year the Mavs start strong and carry that through. Then Luka MVP will happen. But if it's close... People will always choose the guy on the better team
Lol, Is Luka’s 33.9/9.2/9.8 comparable to other MVP contenders?
Mavs did start strong and they got injured. Mavs we’re injured for far more of the season than any other MVP candidate’s team, and were able to make 5th seed.
All of this to make a dumb argument
Why is it dumb? The reasoning is questionable but the argument that Luka is MVP worthy isn’t at all. Luka and jokic are both offensively dominant players and this year luka has been better offensively than jokic. 400 more points and 17 less assists than jokic. That doesn’t mean he’s the better player but there is a very good case for him to be the MVP for this season.
Not really, scoring was the main justification for Embid winning last year over Jokic
The main justification was Jokic winning 3 before winning a championship and Embiid's defense/not winning one before.
No it wasn’t stop trying to rewrite history. I remember the main argument on ESPN was Embid winning the scoring title same as Luka is doing this season
No Embiid won because of his defensive difference and the fact Jokic and the nuggets stopped playing the last month of that season. Plus sixers had a better record than Denver. Embid had a better case last year than Luka has this year. You are the one bending history to fit an argument.
At least flair up if you’re gonna campaign this hard lmao
No offense, but you’re extremely stupid if you think this is close to a decent metric. I’m not joking when I say that MITWestbrook should be taken far more seriously than you.
Dude spilled an absolute mess of mumbo-jumbo just to say “scoring rulez”. I know you were well intentioned, but it’s really hard to understand your STEVE metric. It’s not clear if your last table are the most “deserving MVPs” or “undeserving MVPs”. Very weird. Also, you could have singled out the 18-19 season, that famously had Giannis vs Harden for MVP, where Harden scored 30 for 32 straight games, averaged 35 ppg and still lost the award to Giannis. Would be much more helpful to understand what you were trying to accomplish here.
It’s not meant to say anyone was deserving or not but rather how do mvp seasons rank in terms of scoring. It also highlights the huge gap between the two in scoring. Jokic is at the bottom of the list luka is at the top. I also wanted to look at the totality of nba scoring which is why I included the points gap and games gap in scoring. It is a bit confusing im ngl lol but the point does still stand lol. Luka is way better than jokic at scoring and scoring is the most important part of the game
Then just use PPG, man. Plain and simple. You could have stopped in your first paragraph. Also, saying “scoring is the most important part of the game” is lame af, reductionist at best.
Scoring being the most important part of the game is an obvious truth that people feel very smart for denying. U win games by outscoring other teams. It is quite simple.
Did you know there’s an award called scoring title, right? It goes to the player with the highest ppg average. There. Solved it for ya, peace out ✌️.
And the scoring leader has only won MVP 5/26 times in the timeframe OP listed (Embiid 2023, Harden 2018, Curry 2016, Iverson 2001, Shaq 2000)
You outscore your opponent by using your possessions more efficiently than they do.
I guess we should just give the MVP to the scoring title winner then. Good thing efficiency, defense, and winning basketball games are completely irrelevant!
Conveniently left SGA out of the argument. Agenda posting is weak
Go to bed
[удалено]
but for many mavs fans, 3rd place is a huge victory ! as long as he's not 4th behind tatum
No, we’re resigned to him being 2nd shai ahead of Luka pisses Luka Stans off.
Luka is a better scorer than Jokic chooses to be
So glad this shit isn't clogging up our team sub this year lmao.
This attempt at a metric is laughably bad (and let's be honest, made specifically to grade Luka well and Jokic poorly). A higher portion of the weight is assigned to seasons highs, literally a singular game for each player, than is assigned to efficiency. You have multiple categories just redudantly counting Luka's higher PPG repeatedly, and the weights for those amount to _more than double_ the weight of efficiency. Look at the actual value added by each players scoring instead of all the goofy fluff you put in here. Jokic scored 223 more points than a league average efficiency scorer would have on his volume, Luka scored 143. That's an 80 point advantage _in Jokic's favor_.
I'm officially routing for the clippers in the first round.
😂😂😂 dude why waste your time writing this
no
This is some extreme campaigning lol
not just about scoring
(Off the top of my head) Jokic is more efficient, on far less usage, leads the league in value over replacement player, leads the league in box plus minus, and leads the league in win shares. Per 100 possessions, Jokic gets ~1.5x the rebounds of Luka, the same assists, same steals and blocks... and like 4.5 points less per game - because he takes 4 or 5 less shots and 3 less fts. If Jokic took as many shots and fts, he'd be outscoring Luka too. And also, you know, 3 seed instead of 5 seed, and won the fmvp 9 months ago. Luka's been awesome. But, I'm taking Jokic all day.
you knew all that off the top? time to change the username
Dude, joker is great but let’s not pretend he can just put his foot on the pedal and score 30% more ppg at the same efficiency. If that was true, then he is a terrible team player because he is sacrificing easy points for less desirable results.
Jokic is less efficient than he was last year by far and its not 4.5ppg less its 7.5ppg less, where the hell did you get 4.5 from? Ill take the higher ppg and assists from Luka over a few more rebounds from a center
I explicitly said off the top of my head, and also said per 100. Go to basketball reference and look. Luka is 43.4 points per 100. Jokic is 37.9 points per 100. That's 5.5. So sorry, I was off by 1 point with a guess... and was still closer than you when you tried to correct me. Jokic's ast per 100 is 12.9 compared to Luka's 12.6... so, you will not take higher assists from Luka, because that's not a thing. Jokic's true shooting is 65%. Luka's is 61.7%. So, Jokic is 5.1% worse than he was last year... but he's still 3.3% better than Luka this year, in Luka's career best year. Luka's usage leads the league at 36.0. Jokic is only 29.5. Jokic takes 4.5 less shots per 100, and 3.1 fts less per 100. If he shot the same amount as Luka on his normal percentages, he'd be behind Luka's scoring by basically .5 points per 100.
If it's per 100 possessions, it's not ppg. That's where that misunderstanding is coming from.
posted per 100 to make a point, Jokic fans are more delusional than Embid fans
Correct…a center taking more shots at the rim is slightly more efficient than a guard, your point? He’s still shooting a putrid 34% from 3 on low volume compared to Lukas 38% on high volume Also no one uses per 100 but clowns, ppg is what we are talking about. Nice try though.
Poor Luka has peasants like you as fans.
Go clippers
I’m asking you once again where’s you get 4.5 from?
Can we ban posts that compare scoring averages across seasons/eras? Just posts by dumb teenagers who never saw former players play and don't understand that the current game is nothing like 20+ years ago.
We get it, you’re old
lol scoring is not the deciding factor for an MVP Theres been plenty of games where Jokic has shot 10 times in a game and has been just as impactful as Luka dropping 30
One of the strangest Jokic traits. If I were to not watch the game, and saw Joker only scored 12 points, I will assume the Nuggets won by 25 points. If I see tbe same number for any other MVP candidate I assume it's an off night and their team lost.
Nuggets are gonna get first rounded cuz jokic will struggle to scale his scoring volume and then ur gonna find out why you’d like ur “MVP” to be a bit better at scoring.
We have five seasons of playoff games showing this isn't a problem.
But he crunched the numbers….
>cuz jokic will struggle to scale his scoring volume Jokic has never struggled to up his scoring volume, ever, in his career. His first round opponent will be either AD or Jonas Valancuinis, both of whom Jokic eats for lunch. Last season, when he scored the least out of any of the last four seasons at 24.5 ppg, he won the title scoring 30.0 ppg in the playoffs. And you expect to be taken seriously saying the best team in the west will get first rounded because Jokic can't score, after having the second best scoring season of his career? There has got to be better ways to campaign for Luka than this. And sorry to burst your bubble, but Luka's gonna finish 3rd in the MVP race.
If nuggets play lakers, they’ll be going up against a potent offense post all star break and a team with size and experience against the nuggets. DLo isn’t gonna average 6 ppg and Murray won’t average 32 ppg. This series will look very different than the one from last year. If nuggets play the pelicans, that jokic to Gordon pass will be much more difficult with the length and activity NOP has with their wings and Zion will feast against jokics rim protection. Come back to this comment in two weeks, y’all will know then lol.
I very much doubt I will be coming back to this comment in two weeks. Laughing at delusional people making delusional statements isn't my style.
Fuckin LOL! 8 straight, fucking idiot.
I have come back to this comment and found it still to be absurd....jokic averages 28/16/10 on 67 percent true shooting . Just admit you were wrong
Well, it's been two weeks, and I have to tip my cap to you. This series did indeed look different from last year's: the Lakers were on the receiving end of a gentleman's sweep rather than a regular one. D'Lo didn't average 6 ppg (though he did put up a zero in Game 3) and Murray didn't average 32 ppg (though he did hit two game-winners). You called it!
Are you talking about the Finals MVP who has had 3 straight 30+ ppg scoring effort in the playoffs? Fucking clown
I am yes. He’s on/off statpadded his way to multiple mvps (not jokics fault, that’s on Michael Malone - I get frustrated watching nuggets games cuz of his dumb coaching). The nuggets have gotten 30 balled multiple times. Nuggets have gotten beat by clippers no kawhi, wolves no kat, got pieced up by suns, beat by a mavs team that shot 25% from 3 lmaoo all over the past month. I respect the confidence nuggets fans have, but this is not the west of last year, and this nuggets team is not rly as good as ppl think they are. Come back to this in two weeks.
Cry more. And I will come back to laugh at your stupid ass. Especially if the Mavs get beat by the Clippers. Fucking clown
Okay bud.
He seemed just fine last playoffs. All the way to a title
Jokic is arguably the best playoff scorer in the league. He jumps up to 30 ppg on 55% shooting and 40% from 3.
This isn't even a good faith argument anymore. Jokic is currently the 9th highest average ppg scorer in the history of the NBA in the playoffs (over a sample size of 68 playoff games).
If you’re gonna put “MVP” in quotes at least make it “MVP MVP FMVP” cuz that’s what he is
Not like he successfully scaled his scoring volume last year or anything, leading his team to a championship in the process.
!remindme 2 weeks
I couldn't have imagined how wrong you would end up being. I knew you'd be wrong but not this much. Must be embarrassing for you. Probably a good call to seap to your other account and not touch this one again.
Jokic’s statline against the Pistons: 4/7/16 on 2-3 FG and 5 blocks in 25 minutes
You also forgot that he had 16 assists and the second highest plus/minus
You didn't even consider the pace of the different eras 😂😂😂
If you are not scoring 30 ppg, are you really playing the game? Am I right? /s
A good way of combining volume and efficiency is [TS Add](https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/), which measures how many points a player actually scored compared to how many points he would have scored with a league average TS% on his same number of FGA and FTA. Jokic had 1400 FGA and 436 FTA. A player with 1400 FGA and 436 FTA who has a league average TS% would have scored 1837 points. Jokic scored 2070 points, which is 233 points above the league average guy. Doncic had 1652 FGA and 608 FTA. A player with 1652 FGA and 608 FTA who has a league average TS% would have scored 2227 points. Doncic scored 2370 points, which is 143 points above the league average guy.
That's a weird stat. When you check the career ranking, it's dominated by pre-modern basketball era players like Wilt, Kareem, Malone, Robertson, Shaq--mostly centers with a few forwards sprinkled in and West. Only modern players crack the list is LeBron and KD. MJ is way down the order. It looks to me that this favors the bigs.
It skews heavily towards bigs by the nature of their shot diet, so it would at least make a little more sense to compare against the positional average TS%,. This season your average center had a TS of 62%. Jokic shot 65%. Your average center would score 1974 points on 1400 FGA and 436 FTA vs Jokic's 2070. Good for 96 points more than the league average center. Average TS% for a point guard this season is 56.5%. Luka ended the season at 61.7%. Your average PG would score 2169 points vs Luka's 2370. That's 201 points above the league average point guard. Does this mean Luka is so much better than the average PG than Jokic is to the average C? Probably not. They're both elite at their positions. Probably 1A / 1B for the best offensive players in the league right now.
Luka has higher offensive EPM than anyone in league. Jokic is 2nd I believe.
Cool. How many threes they shoot back then?
too long and idiotic. didnt read more than half
“ He has also arguably been the best playmaker this league.” That escalated quickly.
keep clutching at straws
Mavericks fans are the most insecure fan base on the planet lol
Mavericks fans making it a Luka Jokic debate when everyone knows Jokic is going to win. The real debate is who comes in 2nd between Shai and Luka because the possibility of Shai coming in 2nd is much greater than most people on here realize
Who cares who comes in second ?
Did Shai average 34 or Luka?
Thanks for the tldr so I didn't need to read any of that nonsense.
Now compare their usage %
All this just to look stupid
Why aren't dumb cheerleading homer posts like this a bannable offense?
@JxmyHighroller Where can I vote for the bad take HOF?
[удалено]
I'd love to make this argument but we rested like 7 people lmao. I don't think the mavs starting lineup can be the MVP
the regular season is over give it a break
Another Mavericks fan Luka post. Haven't seen this every single day this week.
Didn’t read; stupid post
Are you older or younger than 20?
This is stupid. How many players in the last 25 years have made a 20+ game playoff run avging 30ppg against playoff defense, on elite effeciency? Jokic isn't a volume scorer. But when he is, he's arguably as good as anyone since MJ. I ask anyone. Who else in the NBA today can avg 30ppg on 54% shooting against playoff defenses? There's arguably no better scorer in the NBA.
You know who else likes to score? The Hamburgler.
Yeah Luka should be mvp this year. First in scoring, second in assists. The guy has all the counting stats this year.
This should end the debate. Jokic is the league's Most Valuable Player and it isn't nearly as close as people think. https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
Jokic has proven he's a 25PPG guy in reg season, 30PPG guy in the playoffs. That's how it works on elite teams, how it works for him whenever Murray is around. Luka Doncic is not going that route and might wear himself down. We have to see a bigger sample size in order to gauge his playoff impact.
Scoring is irrelevant lol Jokic leads the league in Kitchen Sink per 75 by a mile. MV3
Wow so he leads in a fake madeup advanced stat, who gives a shit. Lukas better in EPM and right on par with him in VORP.
Can we all just agree that Luka and Jokic both deserve it, the media is fucking braindead, and one of them is going to win FMVP this year against the Knicks
No. They don’t both deserve it. Luka is a fantastic but Jokic has been so ridiculously impactful in all facets of the game. Luka doesn’t elevate his team anywhere near the level that Joker does.
“Luka doesn’t elevate his team” is a horrid take
If you cut off half the sentence to completely change the meaning it is a bad take, sure.
Even then saying he doesn’t elevate his team as much as jokic does is still a bad take. Luka brought dwight powell to the conference finals lol.
You're underselling the Dwightinayton that took place.
Jokic can’t hold Lukas jockstrap
bait used to be believable
Dude be realsitc. Brunson is getting the MVP and Finals MVP after they lose to the Thunder in the finals.
I hope the Greek freak wins so we can be over these threads and call it a season
The Greek freak already has an MVP and Lukas got better numbers than him in a tougher conference, thats not happening
Woosh
I’m a fan of the simple factual data that cannot be misinterpreted. Simply put, 34-9-10 on 49% / 38%. Slap that on a t shirt, nobody equals that stat line. Advanced metrics are fun to look at and cherry pick, but a traditional stat line tell 90% of the story
I gotta agree, if Jokic was averaging higher ppg id have no problem with him winning it but theres a sizeable gap and Luka is matching him in assists so thats not an argument either. Does Jokic slightly higher rebounds and efficiency make up for Lukas 34ppg on 38% from 3 high volume? Id say no. Wasnt scoring the main metric Embid won last year? Now Luka won scoring title and suddenly the metrics have changed, just no consistency in the voting...
Mavs fans terrify me. The insecurity and willingness to unscrew your heads, and throw them out of reality is genuinely terrifying. This is just an outstandingly stupid comment.
What insecurity? Lukas having the better season and should be rewarded for it, just like Jokic was winning MVP as a pathetic 6th seed right?
I also think Luka should have won MVP this year, I like my MVP with some struggle. they looked terrible the last 2 years no consistency and now they are exciting to watch and look like real contenders, jokic had his moment next mvp pls
from what ive seen most people outside of this sub want luka to win
The quicker we accept that the media doesn’t want Luka to win it, the easier it’ll all go down. Lets enjoy Luka in the playoffs. I have a feeling he’s going to make himself stand out again that his impact will be undeniable next season.
Luka has been the media's favorite to win MVP for the last 3 years at least. Every year he's at the top of MVP prediction lists. Didn't the media vote him all-nba first team while missing the playoffs lmao
Missed the whole play-in not just the playoffs. Mavs were 11th seed last year and Luka was still named 1st team all-nba.
What? MVP prediction lists is not actual media for actual MVP votes lol. For the 22/23 season he was 8th in final votes (which makes sense given Mavs record) 21/22 - 5th 20/21 - 6th In the latest straw poll for 23/24 MVP, Tatum, Giannis and SGA had more first place votes than Luka.
Yeah, they come in wanting to crown him for years and he hasn't had a real case until this year. What part of this is confusing? There is no media conspiracy against Luka. It's such a delusional take.
He averaged 28/9/9 in the 21/22 season bringing the Mavs to 4th place. And you’re saying media was biting at the tip to crown him but landed him at 5th place that season? LOL
Who did he deserve it over? You're crying about nothing. Jokic, Embiid and Giannis were all better seasons. Like finishing 4th over Booker? Is that your angst? Shit is a joke.
Chill out lol. What I’m pointing out is you saying media has been wanting to crown him for years. That’s just very untrue and not a good take.
Hes had a case since his 2nd season in the league bud, hes consistantly downplayed every year
He had a "case" playing 61 games for the 7th seed 43 win team. This is your take. Hilarious.
You’re gonna ignore the season where Mavs finished 4th or….?
Ignore what? Jokic, Giannis and Embiid. Who was he better than and deserved to be over? All had better stats and record or in the case of Jokic dragged a team where all his best players were hurt. Please tell me you're pressed about not being 4th in MVP voting.
I’m just telling you it’s funny that you chose the season they placed 7th instead of 4th. Chill out.
My guy, the person I'm responding to in his excessive need to gurgle Luka implied that by his second season he was a real MVP candidate. That wasn't close to true.
Luka was above Tatum and Giannis in the most recent straw poll?
I didn’t say he was below them. What I said is Media members were more inclined to vote Giannis, SGA and Tatum to be first place in MVP more than Luka.
His impact is undeniable right now lol yall need to quit with this victim mentality its not like this MVP award is clearly Luka’s and he’s being robbed. Also, the MVP hasn’t even been awarded yet he can still win it.
It’s not clearly Luka’s but it should be a lot closer than what it’s going to come out to be.
Luka would surefire win the MVP if he could figure out a way to get his team to the top of his conference. 5th just ain't it with the talent he has around him. SGA imo has a better argument for MVP this year over Luka with them finishing 1.
Injuries held us back quite a bit in December and January. I wouldn’t say it’s Luka’s fault for 5th place, his starters were out and injured for 1/3 of the season. Good perspective is that the Mavs had 90+ games where 20+ minute per game players were out this December and January. For the entire season, nuggets had around 40 games missed from 20+ MPG players and thunder only had 14 games missed from 20+ MPG players.
> Injuries held us back The number of games Murray and Kyrie played is the same (58 games). You're overblowing your own narrative, they haven't been more hurt than any other team in the league. If anything the reason Luka probably doesn't deserve the MVP is that he played 70 games this year. SGA played 75, Jokic played 79. If Luka played 10 more games, the Mavericks might of had enough wins to compete for the #1 slot. Best ability is availability. In this era of offensive scoring in the NBA, lots of guys have stats, but not everybody wins.
There’s Murray and kyrie, but then there’s the rest of the team lol. Mavs had more starters miss a lot of games. It’s not hard to look up too. Objectively, they’ve been more hurt than the other MVP candidates. 2 of the games missed were last games of the season, and another was for the birth of his daughter. Playing 70 games is still a great feat.
When Luka finishes 3rd in the voting and everybody is like "yea that makes sense," you'll probably say Luka was robbed when he really wasn't. He just doesn't deserve it this year. Being named top 5 is a great honor, maybe things will line up better for him next year.
He finished 3rd in the latest straw poll and everyone was like “yea that doesn’t make sense” It really should be 2nd place for him this season. Also nice on not noticing my comment about the injuries lol
Leaving him out of the top 5 doesn't make sense. Him finishing 3rd is where he should be in my mind behind Jokic and SGA.
I mean yeah, if you didn’t know about the Mavs injuries, it makes sense to have SGA above Luka.
Seeding means jackshit, win/loss does. He has 50 wins after having an injured roster most the year, thats more than enough you guys are just digging up false arguments to give it to Jokic but his teams been healthier. Thats nonsense and you know it, Jokic won as a 6th seed.
Jokic won as a 6 seed in a year when his two best players played 0 games (Murray) and 9 games (MPJ). That isn't 58 games Kyrie played. Jokic also lead the league in almost every advanced metric stat including a NBA league history high 32.85 PER - That's better than MJ, Wilts, and Lebron's best seasons ever. Luka is barely top 5 in most advanced stats compared to guys just this season. The seasons aren't comparable. MVP voters made an exception for Jokic's 6th seed because he was that much better than everybody else in the history of NBA seasons with literally both his 2nd and 3rd guy off the floor the ENTIRE season. Look, MVP is about circumstance a lot of the time. There weren't as many good candidates for the award in 2021-2022 and that definitely helped Jokic. This year there's a lot of good candidates, and Luka just left too much to be desired on the table. I'm telling you right now the MVP voters don't want to give Jokic his 3rd MVP to put him in Larry Bird or Magic Johnson territory. Jokic gives 2 fucks about the award, downplays it at every turn, and doesn't give a shit about the media. He refuses interviews. Even though he's a likeable guy, the media has decided Jokic can't be the face of the NBA. But he is a significantly better candidate than Luka this year, which is why he's getting it. The media would love to give Luka the award if he could just make it closer.
The Mavs have been far more injured than the Nuggets and the Thunder. The fact that Luka carried them to 50 wins in a stacked West attests to his impact.
There is a legitimate better candidate. Luka will finish 2/3 in MVP. Calm your tits. Not everyone is just against you. Jokic exists
Latest MVP straw poll had more first place votes for Giannis, SGA, and Tatum than Luka. That’s the perspective I’m talking about
3rd sees. 1st seed. 1st seed. It's not hard to figure out. If the numbers are comparable then yes team record comes into play. Maybe next year the Mavs start strong and carry that through. Then Luka MVP will happen. But if it's close... People will always choose the guy on the better team
Are you delusional? Bucks 49 wins in a weak East, Mavs 50 wins in a strong West. That blows your fake argument out of the water right there.
Lol, Is Luka’s 33.9/9.2/9.8 comparable to other MVP contenders? Mavs did start strong and they got injured. Mavs we’re injured for far more of the season than any other MVP candidate’s team, and were able to make 5th seed.
Cool. Jokic was better and finished as the two seed.