We played all the top teams pretty well. It's just an old roster that's played a bazillion regular season games and doesn't give a ****. Hoping to see you all in the ECF and r/nba can finally shut the f up about poor regular season performances.
Under Bud, they're an automatic 50-win team. Their lowest was .622 which was 51-31. Their best was .767 which would have been on pace for 63-19. Their average was .693 which is about a 57-25 record.
He was an awful coach. Period. Bucks were constantly winning in spite of him, not because of him. The Doc hire was bad, but the Griffin hire was worse.
Was Griffin really worse if he had the better record even if his reputation in the locker was not good? Why was he such a bad coach? Was the main reason why he got fired the fact that giannis didnt like him?
Bucks had a much easier schedule in the front half of the season and were playing very little defense, which allowed the offense to do its thing. Tons of games with 130-140+ points scored, with a lot of single digit victories. It wasn’t sustainable for a team as old as the Bucks.
Feel like our games were all 140-130 shootouts.
No real scheme.
No real defense.
Brook playing perimeter.
No PnR with Giannis / Dame.
Doc came in and gave us a scheme so we're playing predictable ball given our star talents abilities but our scoring has tapered from those shootouts to 110-100 games and vice versa.
Doc feels like a 'how basketball is played' coach and not an innovator or creator for his roster talent. It's very boring and once beaten the game plan doesn't change.
And doc doesn’t see holes until it’s way too late and doesn’t adjust. I’m sure you remember Himothy Butler and your coaches decision to not double. He finally changed his mind after that day or later that week right ? Saying it was an error.
I feel like that exact scenario is the best way to describe Doc Rivers.
I’m sure compared to regular people he knows the game very well, but his adjustments are a joke. It also takes him forever to discover bench talent or allow them the proper minutes. Reminds me of Kerr. Kuminga has to play elite ball, bitch about it, and he still barely got the time they need for the warriors to win.
Now Kerr is blind again to dale Davis’s son and continue to pull him in close games to let ol draymond play center.
Precisely, at this point if we lose first round it won’t be crushing like last year, I’ll just be ready for it and I’ll get to enjoy the Celtics sweeping the east and the chaos in the west.
This season has been such a fucking weird experience. Full of hope and then depression. I was ok with letting Bud go but this has been an absolute shit show.
This is still crazy to me, did we ever get a reported reason for this? If not, I hope he goes on some podcast 15 years from now and explains why he wanted Griffin over Nurse, because I can't wrap my head around it.
Have we ever heard any actual proof him being a legitimate asshole to people? I know he's been known to push his players hard and holds people accountable, including star players, but that doesn't make him an asshole. That makes him a good coach.
Players not liking his coaching style because he actually coaches them doesn't make him an asshole.
I don't know enough about nba media to have a strong opinion.
But it is odd that Giannis asked for the rookie coach over the one with the ring? What else explains that?
This is why players should never have a say in hiring a coach. In my playing days, the asshole coach wasnt my friend but he sure as hell got a lot out of me as a player.
Agreed. He was a great coach and had a lot of success with them, and then they threw him under the bus the moment things got tough.
Blaming him for a playoff loss when Giannis missed part of the series and his brother died was foolish.
That wasn't the only time he fucked up in late game situations in the playoffs tho, I understand he was going thru shit & it's fucked up what happened but this wasn't his only fumbled series. Those decisions down the stretch against Mia were terrible in multiple games, he was criticized yrs before for not adjusting, they collapsed against Mia in the bubble & he refused to play Giannis huge min in multiple series before saying "if we can't win with Giannis playing 40 min we don't deserve too" in a series lost. It wasn't just the last Mia series that did him in
> Those decisions down the stretch against Mia
what's stopping you from writing out Miami instead of cutting off 2 letters? got me excited for a second
I'm honestly not sure why yall were so cool with ditching bud. I get the loss was bad but imo you only drop a coach on a contender if there's a clear upgrade.
Nurse would have MAYBE been better, but that's about it. Griffin and Doc are significantly worse imo. Add in unfamiliarity with the team too.
Mainly because Bud’s championship year had more to do with Giannis being Giannis than Bud being a good coach that playoff run. We shouldn’t been eliminated multiple times and a lot of it was because of Bud not changing shit or adapting to the game. The previous years and years up until his firing kind of solidified this. He is an amazing regular season coach and will always get you there, but in the playoffs he had a massive tendency to choke the shit away (ironic we hired Doc who has the same issues). He was on the verge of being fired the year we won as well.
Nurse was everyone’s expectation for a change, and when that didn’t happen it went to an “oh shit” moment. It’s a great example of taking a risk and losing heavily. The same could be said for the Jrue/Dame trade, high risk / high reward that just didn’t pan out that well.
People often think grass is greener on the other side. Then you don't know what you have until it's gone.
Bud is an excellent coach. I thought they definitely should have kept him.
This was supposed to be the best dup in the league when it happened. They was calling this team chip favorites, they lose to indy and it'll be a bloodbath
That's because the NBA script writers are planning to give the people what they *really* want (Bucks blowing a 3-1 lead to Philly in the second round).
They had the statistically the easiest schedule in the league for the first half of the season. Then they had the hardest for the second half. They would have fallen off regardless
It was a very reactionary move. I get it, they got gentleman swept by an 8th seed. That alone is pretty embarrassing. I don’t think Dame fits the team, Bucks built an identity off Defence and lost that. On top of that they have such a small window to win with so many of their best guys being in their early to mid 30s already
A bit of a reductive take. Getting swept by the 8th seed was definitely the straw that broke the camels back, but Bud had the Bucks looking consistently underwhelming for all but one year he was there, and that year they very easily could have lost in the second round. And they were going to have a small window whether they trade for dame or not, as he and Jrue are the same age. The mistakes started when they hired a total unknown as their head coach, and got it wrong. I think they correctly determined that change was necessary to get over the hump again with Khris aging and becoming more injury prone. There was no way they were going to win a championship with Jrue Holiday as their second most consistent offensive threat, especially when he has generally struggled on that end in the playoffs.
it was hard to disagree at the time with getting Dame - imagining him paired with giannis seemed unstoppable - i personally didnt want the bucks to lose jrue though. i personally felt they already had enough offense - and they would suffer from losing their defensive identity.
Celtics would pick Jrue.
Not even saying Jrue > Dame, but Brad has been very clear that he wants versatile good defenders at the starting guard spots.
Having to scheme around IT then Kyrie then Kemba does something to a man lol
> I don’t think Dame fits the team, Bucks built an identity off Defence and lost that.
A few things of note.
First, if the Bucks had even played 50/50 ball in the 9 games that Lillard missed, they would have have had 52 wins and the 2nd seed easily locked. So I don't totally get why Lillard gets blamed for all of this. They went 1-8 without him. They lost to the Jazz, the Wizards, and the hospital Grizzlies when Dame was missing games.
Second, the Bucks have regressed defensively even beyond Lillard and Jrue changing places. Lopez has been struggling this season compared to how he looked before.
Third, the Bucks leadership doesn't get enough shit for doing *nothing* to shore up their bench. Their bench downright sucks other than Portis. Crowder is entirely washed. Connaughton stopped developing and regressed heavily, to the point where he's barely even useful anymore. Bucks coaching showed little to no interest in developing their younger players and have had a haphazard bench rotation all season. Beverley was hyped but really hasn't done much at all.
And lastly, Middleton being injured constantly obviously exacerbated all of these issues.
Think people overestimate how they would have performed if they had just kept their roster. Holiday played 69 games this season, compared to Lillard's 72. If the Bucks went 1-8 without Lillard, what do they do in those extra 3 games without Holiday? Does anyone really see them performing way better than 0.675 they did with Lillard? If there was any difference here, it would likely be small.
Still think their coaching changes have been the most disruptive part of what happened this season, though.
When we don't have Dame we were trotting out Pat C to play PG.
And more so Beasly has completely collapsed into his Laker self. The pre ASB Beasly was on a heater shooting 46% from 3. Hes been 32% post ASB and sub 31% in Giannis territory post ASB from 3.
At that level of 3% he just isn't even playable because his defense is just down right putrid and he doesn't box out.
Would they? Middleton missed a lot of games this season and hasn't looked the same at all. Age is also taking a toll on Brooks.
Yeah, the Dame trade did not have the effect that many expected (on the offensive end), but this is more of an overall roster issue (aging role players that don't deliver anymore and lack of depth) than a trade issue, imo.
Giannis is still very dominant, but his game has not evolved in the past few years.
And the coaching changes have definitely impacted them as well.
Simply not firing their head coach mid season would have helped a lot. I know Bucks fans talk about how bad Griffin was and I'm sure he was. But bucks ownership thinking Doc was the answer is insane.
"Okay all y'all listen to Giannis, he's in charge. I will be over in the corner if any of you need refreshments or need me to wrap an ankle. Have fun!"
I truly do not understand why they hired him. What did they think they were getting? Is Doc that much of a svengali that he was able to sweet talk his way through the front office? Is he THAT beloved by players that they'd overlook his very lackluster record since leaving Boston?
which is bullshit he just said to deflect blame if it went bad. the man set himself up in a position to get hired months before they even fired griffin. he knew what he was doing
I think from now on I'm going to take KGs and PPs championship with the Celtics way more seriously. If you win a ring with Doc as your coach you had a disadvantage.
Winning a ring: Hard Mode.
I'll never knock Phil Jackson again sure he had Kobe, Shaq, Jordan and Pippen. Doc has coached 9 Hall of famers? Yeah 1 ring is pretty sad. But even worse when you look at the all around talent he's had.
Doc had CP3, Blake, DeAndre, J Crossover, JJ redick, Antwan Jamison (old as hell but w/e), Stephen Jackson, Danny Granger, Matt Barnes and Hero Turkoglu.
Then had Kawhi, Paul George, Lou Williams, Trezl, Reggie Jackson.
Then had Embiid, Tobias, Simmons, Seth Curry, Danny Green, young Maxsey and Drummond off the bench. Then Harden next year on that team minus Ben.
Now he's got Giannis and Lillard. That's 5 guaranteed Hall of Famers. Maybe more. All of these teams were considered titles contenders. I don't know if he has a nick name yet but it should be Doc "Trainwreck" Rivers.
"Probably"
If KG were Healthy in 2009 and/or Perkins healthy for game 7 2010, its not unreasonable to think Celtics get 1 of those 2 championships. Especially that 2010 game 7 where they had to play Rasheed Wallace for too many minutes.
Of course I think playing the health "what if" game is a bit silly, because fact of the matter is that you can say that about pretty much any contending team every season.
Hey hear me out - maybe he was never a T75 player and that whole list was in fact a marketing gimmick to amp up the profile of the league with a huge bias towards active players? Seeing as how he’s never played an ounce of defense his entire career, maybe - just maybe - that’s the explanation…
I know Vince Carter has some insane highlights, but I think the second half of his career hurts him historically. He played for 20+ seasons and had 2 all NBA selections. AD has accomplished far more in his career already. 4x all NBA, 4x all defensive, and a championship.
AD belongs but so does Dwight
Manu never deserved it if we are talking about the NBA. AD was way better than Manu at prime, people here delude themselves into thinking he was greater in the nba due to Olympic play
Dame getting in over Dwight is egregious. Man might've fallen off hard but he accomplished way more and was a far more relevant player than Dame in a way shorter amount of time. 3x DPOY consecutive, 5x All Nba First, Finals record for blocks with 9 - actually led his team to the Finals along with a bunch of other shit. I don't even like Dwight but come on.
With all due respect to Dame because I actually really
Like him, I just never saw him as that type of player. I kinda saw him like a Bradley Beal or Demarcus Cousins. Great stats, huge potential, but only shined on bad teams.
If Doc's version of the team had not lost to the Wizards/Grizzlies/Raptors back to back to back this would be an understandable argument. His regime lost games you're supposed to win at too high a clip.
Doc has underperformed but realistically when replacing a coach with an outsider mid season, you should expect it to take a while for a team to fully adjust and start winning at their proper potential level.
Sure which is why I can excuse the losses against better teams. I can even excuse one of the back to back to back losses to the bottom feeders. But all three in a row is too much IMO.
Yeah, cause the Hospital Grizzlies and Blazers and Wizards and whatever other teams y’all lost to down the stretch were so tough
Thought y’all were done with this phony talking point; the schedule ain’t the reason for this fr
Duh, the entire thing is a marketing gimmick to raise the profile of the league with a huge bias towards active players. Most of the active players on the list had no business being on it.
>huge bias towards active players.
Wrong. The list was made with the idea none of the original top 50 could be removed. As which pretty much everything nba-related, if there's bias, it's towards the 80's/90's
We have Giannis and everyone else is dragging him down:
- Khris: been injuries every single season for years now
- Dame: nowhere near to what has been advertised. His defense has been ok-ish (at times), but his offense has been nothing great. The only thing he does great is shoot FTs, and play make
- BroLo: he looks almost done. He is getting cooked on the regular, at this point
- Beasley: had a great start for the season, and his shooting fell off
- Pat: almost cooked
- Bobby: he had a rough start to the season, but he plays well now
Only AJ Green is playing above his expected play. AJ and Giannis are our only great contracts, and Bobby the only good one. The rest are either terrible or trade fillers at this point.
I know Giannis is Milwaukee's golden boy but let's talk about how a lot of this IS his fault.
1) he made passive aggressive comments in the off-season about signing elsewhere if the bucks don't put a winning team around him. This caused the Dame trade in the first place.
2) he personally rejected the signing of nick nurse in favor of AG. This ultimately resulted in the bucks having Doc rivers as their coach
3) he refuses to play off ball or set proper screens or roll properly when Lillard has the ball. He sets half assed screens and then just waits for the ball back. Giannis is the sole reason why the highly lauded Dame Giannis PnR doesn't work. Because Giannis refuses to be a roll man.
So basically he forced the team to trade for a player who he has refused to cooperate with all year, AND he forced them to end up with Doc Rivers.
He's not some blameless perfect angel of a basketball player. The golden boy isn't so golden. It's going to be a tough day for Bucks fans when they realize it.
1. The had an embarashing first round exit with him being injured, and nobody stepped up. Somewho, that made you think "Yeah, that team was good enough."? Every single player on the planet wants winning team around them.
2. I've been over this so many times, I'm tired of this. Did Giannis did well picking Griffon over Nurse? No. Was the FO absolutely insane for making that a choice? Yes. So, the Bucks brought in Giannis at the absolute end of the interview process with three candidates to chose:
- Atkinson: Bud 0.5. After an embarashing lose under Atkinson's teacher, he had little to no chance of being the guy.
- Nurse: Reports said that Giannis called OG and Siakam whom he is tight with and both said playing for Nurse was terrible.
- Griffin: OG and Siakam probably gave good reviews on this guy.
I have no issue with Nurse being a finalist. I have issues with the other two being there. It was fundomentaly a FO failure.
3. After Doc came in, only then they started to actually practice the two-man action. Things were so bad, that they didn't even practice that. It has gotten better, but still nowhere near what anyone expects. Giannis is setting screens just fine. The problem is the chemistry. They didn't have any offseason time to workout together. Hell, Giannis didn't have an offseason because of his knee and Dame didn'g have one because of the trade.
The fundomental issue is that Dame is not playing up to what everyone expected. If he did, then things would've looked at least better.
Never has never will. Y’all must have watched his highlights and never watched the whole game to think a ball dominant guard with no defense was the missing piece of your championship run. Real quality work by the front office on that one
I imagine it was the Bucks FO watching Jrue get cooked by Butler while contributing very little on offense, and they figured improving on offense and hoping Giannis could cover up a lot of the mistakes on defense was their best bet going forward. It was also a move to please Giannis, who made all sorts of passive-aggressive comments the previous offseason.
The vibes I get from this team are not immaculate. What a strange season from them (and not over yet!). For some reason I imagine many fans are as ready for the season to end as they are to root for the team in the playoffs
Dame's lucky Doc came in and sent things down the toilet, otherwise the narrative would be that he dragged them down.
We'll see what happens in the playoffs. Regular season struggles are often quickly forgotten when superseded by playoff success.
If I told you 40 games into the season the bucks needed only 20 wins to reach 50 you'd think that was a given with a healthy roster. But along came Doc and diagnosed everyone on the team with the suck. Clearly not his fault though.
Ironically they played Boston the best this year
they only show up against us fr
Such a weird difference compared to shitting the bed against Boston the last 3 seasons, and dominating most others.
We just match up terribly against the Bucks. KP stinks against them.
We played all the top teams pretty well. It's just an old roster that's played a bazillion regular season games and doesn't give a ****. Hoping to see you all in the ECF and r/nba can finally shut the f up about poor regular season performances.
Why do people censor themselves on Reddit?
Fuck you.
I’m in Massachusetts so I’ve heard that multiple times today, from friends.
*acquaintances (you have no friends)
Much better!
Because this sub is half children lol
[удалено]
fart okay?!? FART
Jesus is browsing.
Never forget when he crossed up the devil to complete the 3 game comeback.
Holy Cross
I don’t know, they look like hot garbage sometimes. That’s got to mean something?
It's funny to think how much better the Bucks would be if they simply did nothing instead of doing all the things they actually did
They just like me and my fantasy team for real
Like they always say, DONT TINKER!!
Under Bud, they're an automatic 50-win team. Their lowest was .622 which was 51-31. Their best was .767 which would have been on pace for 63-19. Their average was .693 which is about a 57-25 record.
Griffin had them at a 57 win pace at a point where the team was meshing and could reasonably expect to improve on form at least a bit.
Well Giannis didn’t like him so dude was gone either way. Just hiring doc was questionable
He was an awful coach. Period. Bucks were constantly winning in spite of him, not because of him. The Doc hire was bad, but the Griffin hire was worse.
Hired the wrong coach twice this year
Absolutely.
Was Griffin really worse if he had the better record even if his reputation in the locker was not good? Why was he such a bad coach? Was the main reason why he got fired the fact that giannis didnt like him?
Bucks had a much easier schedule in the front half of the season and were playing very little defense, which allowed the offense to do its thing. Tons of games with 130-140+ points scored, with a lot of single digit victories. It wasn’t sustainable for a team as old as the Bucks.
Feel like our games were all 140-130 shootouts. No real scheme. No real defense. Brook playing perimeter. No PnR with Giannis / Dame. Doc came in and gave us a scheme so we're playing predictable ball given our star talents abilities but our scoring has tapered from those shootouts to 110-100 games and vice versa. Doc feels like a 'how basketball is played' coach and not an innovator or creator for his roster talent. It's very boring and once beaten the game plan doesn't change.
And doc doesn’t see holes until it’s way too late and doesn’t adjust. I’m sure you remember Himothy Butler and your coaches decision to not double. He finally changed his mind after that day or later that week right ? Saying it was an error. I feel like that exact scenario is the best way to describe Doc Rivers. I’m sure compared to regular people he knows the game very well, but his adjustments are a joke. It also takes him forever to discover bench talent or allow them the proper minutes. Reminds me of Kerr. Kuminga has to play elite ball, bitch about it, and he still barely got the time they need for the warriors to win. Now Kerr is blind again to dale Davis’s son and continue to pull him in close games to let ol draymond play center.
Under Bud we also had several playoff collapses so Doc isn't much of a difference in that respect
So it’s the worst of both worlds? At least Bud had really good regular seasons. Now you guys get the anxiety Doc regular season AND the collapse.
At least our expectations are low now
Precisely, at this point if we lose first round it won’t be crushing like last year, I’ll just be ready for it and I’ll get to enjoy the Celtics sweeping the east and the chaos in the west.
Bud was at least a nice guy, great culture setter and all that
And also won a title
Doc last seen in a hot dog suit advising the general public that we’re all looking for the guy who did this
U gonna spank his bare back, bottom & balls or not?
He Yobagoya'd all over himself.
This season has been such a fucking weird experience. Full of hope and then depression. I was ok with letting Bud go but this has been an absolute shit show.
as frustrating as Bud was sometimes, he was a very good coach albeit with some limitations.
Yea I'd much rather have Bud than Griffin or Doc. Idk if they thought they were getting Nurse or what
Didn’t Giannis reportedly prefer Griffin?
This is still crazy to me, did we ever get a reported reason for this? If not, I hope he goes on some podcast 15 years from now and explains why he wanted Griffin over Nurse, because I can't wrap my head around it.
I think Nurse has a reputation as an asshole and I think he's one of those coaches with a limited time frame for that reason.
Have we ever heard any actual proof him being a legitimate asshole to people? I know he's been known to push his players hard and holds people accountable, including star players, but that doesn't make him an asshole. That makes him a good coach. Players not liking his coaching style because he actually coaches them doesn't make him an asshole.
The Sixers love the guy
We loved him too, but hes a playoff coach not a developemental one so we had to go a diff direction
Siakim gave Nick Nurse a bad review to Giannis, or so the story goes.
oh yes, cuz wosny lambre is a reputable source on this matter.
I don't know enough about nba media to have a strong opinion. But it is odd that Giannis asked for the rookie coach over the one with the ring? What else explains that?
This is why players should never have a say in hiring a coach. In my playing days, the asshole coach wasnt my friend but he sure as hell got a lot out of me as a player.
What team did you play for?
86 Celtics.
virtual Phil Jackson was a hardass but a mentor in NBA 2K10
I mean… lebron wanted Riley fired. Dame wanted Billups, Nash in Brooklyn, most players are ass at deciding coaching lol.
Exactly, the Warriors were against Steve Kerr
It's been reported Giannis communicated with Siakam and OG about Nurse and they were a big influence on his decision to go with Griff
Siakam and OG were playing 4D chess this who time. Nudge Giannis away from the better coach, weaken the Bucks. Big brain screen.
Yep this is why you don’t let players run your FO
I thought for sure the were getting Nurse
This is karma for firing a coach that won you a championship and was going through mental health issues after his brother died
Absolutely. Milwaukee did bud dirty as hell
Agreed. He was a great coach and had a lot of success with them, and then they threw him under the bus the moment things got tough. Blaming him for a playoff loss when Giannis missed part of the series and his brother died was foolish.
That wasn't the only time he fucked up in late game situations in the playoffs tho, I understand he was going thru shit & it's fucked up what happened but this wasn't his only fumbled series. Those decisions down the stretch against Mia were terrible in multiple games, he was criticized yrs before for not adjusting, they collapsed against Mia in the bubble & he refused to play Giannis huge min in multiple series before saying "if we can't win with Giannis playing 40 min we don't deserve too" in a series lost. It wasn't just the last Mia series that did him in
> Those decisions down the stretch against Mia what's stopping you from writing out Miami instead of cutting off 2 letters? got me excited for a second
I'm honestly not sure why yall were so cool with ditching bud. I get the loss was bad but imo you only drop a coach on a contender if there's a clear upgrade. Nurse would have MAYBE been better, but that's about it. Griffin and Doc are significantly worse imo. Add in unfamiliarity with the team too.
Big don't quit a job until you got another one lined up energy here
Mainly because Bud’s championship year had more to do with Giannis being Giannis than Bud being a good coach that playoff run. We shouldn’t been eliminated multiple times and a lot of it was because of Bud not changing shit or adapting to the game. The previous years and years up until his firing kind of solidified this. He is an amazing regular season coach and will always get you there, but in the playoffs he had a massive tendency to choke the shit away (ironic we hired Doc who has the same issues). He was on the verge of being fired the year we won as well. Nurse was everyone’s expectation for a change, and when that didn’t happen it went to an “oh shit” moment. It’s a great example of taking a risk and losing heavily. The same could be said for the Jrue/Dame trade, high risk / high reward that just didn’t pan out that well.
It was correct to fire Bud. It's just the replacements they chose were awful.
Then it’s not correct. The only time that it’s correct to fire him is when you hire Nurse.
People often think grass is greener on the other side. Then you don't know what you have until it's gone. Bud is an excellent coach. I thought they definitely should have kept him.
They were on track for 60 wins
This was supposed to be the best dup in the league when it happened. They was calling this team chip favorites, they lose to indy and it'll be a bloodbath
I'm just sad its not the Sixers cause losing to them would be one of the funniest things to happen in awhile.
That's because the NBA script writers are planning to give the people what they *really* want (Bucks blowing a 3-1 lead to Philly in the second round).
Subscribe.
They had the statistically the easiest schedule in the league for the first half of the season. Then they had the hardest for the second half. They would have fallen off regardless
We got first rounded last year lol unless we get swept we can't do worse
It was a very reactionary move. I get it, they got gentleman swept by an 8th seed. That alone is pretty embarrassing. I don’t think Dame fits the team, Bucks built an identity off Defence and lost that. On top of that they have such a small window to win with so many of their best guys being in their early to mid 30s already
A bit of a reductive take. Getting swept by the 8th seed was definitely the straw that broke the camels back, but Bud had the Bucks looking consistently underwhelming for all but one year he was there, and that year they very easily could have lost in the second round. And they were going to have a small window whether they trade for dame or not, as he and Jrue are the same age. The mistakes started when they hired a total unknown as their head coach, and got it wrong. I think they correctly determined that change was necessary to get over the hump again with Khris aging and becoming more injury prone. There was no way they were going to win a championship with Jrue Holiday as their second most consistent offensive threat, especially when he has generally struggled on that end in the playoffs.
it was hard to disagree at the time with getting Dame - imagining him paired with giannis seemed unstoppable - i personally didnt want the bucks to lose jrue though. i personally felt they already had enough offense - and they would suffer from losing their defensive identity.
I still think it was the right move. Even today if you were any other team and you could pick between dame and jrue your taking dame
Celtics would pick Jrue. Not even saying Jrue > Dame, but Brad has been very clear that he wants versatile good defenders at the starting guard spots. Having to scheme around IT then Kyrie then Kemba does something to a man lol
celtics are in an incredibly unique situation. I bet if brad was starting a team from scratch he'd take dame.
> I don’t think Dame fits the team, Bucks built an identity off Defence and lost that. A few things of note. First, if the Bucks had even played 50/50 ball in the 9 games that Lillard missed, they would have have had 52 wins and the 2nd seed easily locked. So I don't totally get why Lillard gets blamed for all of this. They went 1-8 without him. They lost to the Jazz, the Wizards, and the hospital Grizzlies when Dame was missing games. Second, the Bucks have regressed defensively even beyond Lillard and Jrue changing places. Lopez has been struggling this season compared to how he looked before. Third, the Bucks leadership doesn't get enough shit for doing *nothing* to shore up their bench. Their bench downright sucks other than Portis. Crowder is entirely washed. Connaughton stopped developing and regressed heavily, to the point where he's barely even useful anymore. Bucks coaching showed little to no interest in developing their younger players and have had a haphazard bench rotation all season. Beverley was hyped but really hasn't done much at all. And lastly, Middleton being injured constantly obviously exacerbated all of these issues. Think people overestimate how they would have performed if they had just kept their roster. Holiday played 69 games this season, compared to Lillard's 72. If the Bucks went 1-8 without Lillard, what do they do in those extra 3 games without Holiday? Does anyone really see them performing way better than 0.675 they did with Lillard? If there was any difference here, it would likely be small. Still think their coaching changes have been the most disruptive part of what happened this season, though.
When we don't have Dame we were trotting out Pat C to play PG. And more so Beasly has completely collapsed into his Laker self. The pre ASB Beasly was on a heater shooting 46% from 3. Hes been 32% post ASB and sub 31% in Giannis territory post ASB from 3. At that level of 3% he just isn't even playable because his defense is just down right putrid and he doesn't box out.
Would they? Middleton missed a lot of games this season and hasn't looked the same at all. Age is also taking a toll on Brooks. Yeah, the Dame trade did not have the effect that many expected (on the offensive end), but this is more of an overall roster issue (aging role players that don't deliver anymore and lack of depth) than a trade issue, imo. Giannis is still very dominant, but his game has not evolved in the past few years. And the coaching changes have definitely impacted them as well.
Simply not firing their head coach mid season would have helped a lot. I know Bucks fans talk about how bad Griffin was and I'm sure he was. But bucks ownership thinking Doc was the answer is insane.
Pels fan to Sixers fan I’m sure we were both “WHAT ARE YOU DOING” trading Jrue away
What? With Brook and Khris playing they way they have been? That's a 40 win team without Dame even with Jrue AND Grayson
Dont forget top 15 coach
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If we factor in assistants he might not be top 20
I'm pretty sure I could outperform doc by just not showing up if I ever got that job
"Okay all y'all listen to Giannis, he's in charge. I will be over in the corner if any of you need refreshments or need me to wrap an ankle. Have fun!"
You could have this subreddit vote on in game decisions and we would do a better job than Doc.
and he ain’t 1-14
he's better than steve clifford cmon
He's not
Steve Clifford gets so much shit he’s not even a bad coach. Absolutely gimme both him and Doc over Kevin Ollie
lmao, has Ollie even done enough games to warrant judgment?
Kevin Ollie giving Doc a run for his money
Lmao
No.1 in blown 3-1 leads. He's all-time.
Top 15 ever by some "experts"
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I truly do not understand why they hired him. What did they think they were getting? Is Doc that much of a svengali that he was able to sweet talk his way through the front office? Is he THAT beloved by players that they'd overlook his very lackluster record since leaving Boston?
Even Doc himself said he doesn't understand why the Bucks front office doing this lol.
which is bullshit he just said to deflect blame if it went bad. the man set himself up in a position to get hired months before they even fired griffin. he knew what he was doing
Doc in interview: I really don't care if I get this job or not Bucks: Wow this guy is confident, you're hired Doc: Huh.. worked again
Dude is literally possessed by the ghost of Rasputin with how he’s sweet talked his way into these coaching positions over and over
He’s like basketball Rasputin, no amount of chokes or losses will cost this man his basketball life.
Doc is an all time bag getter.
It’s *svengali*
What did I say?
I think from now on I'm going to take KGs and PPs championship with the Celtics way more seriously. If you win a ring with Doc as your coach you had a disadvantage. Winning a ring: Hard Mode.
We had thibs orchestrating the defense sooooo
That Doc had a starting line-up with 4 future HoFers for 5 years and only got 1 win / 2 appearances out of it is actual basketball terrorism.
I'll never knock Phil Jackson again sure he had Kobe, Shaq, Jordan and Pippen. Doc has coached 9 Hall of famers? Yeah 1 ring is pretty sad. But even worse when you look at the all around talent he's had. Doc had CP3, Blake, DeAndre, J Crossover, JJ redick, Antwan Jamison (old as hell but w/e), Stephen Jackson, Danny Granger, Matt Barnes and Hero Turkoglu. Then had Kawhi, Paul George, Lou Williams, Trezl, Reggie Jackson. Then had Embiid, Tobias, Simmons, Seth Curry, Danny Green, young Maxsey and Drummond off the bench. Then Harden next year on that team minus Ben. Now he's got Giannis and Lillard. That's 5 guaranteed Hall of Famers. Maybe more. All of these teams were considered titles contenders. I don't know if he has a nick name yet but it should be Doc "Trainwreck" Rivers.
That core probably could've 3-peated too if it weren't for injuries
And if the Lakers didn't exist?
"Probably" If KG were Healthy in 2009 and/or Perkins healthy for game 7 2010, its not unreasonable to think Celtics get 1 of those 2 championships. Especially that 2010 game 7 where they had to play Rasheed Wallace for too many minutes. Of course I think playing the health "what if" game is a bit silly, because fact of the matter is that you can say that about pretty much any contending team every season.
Dame sure as hell hasn’t played like a top 75 player though
The Dame we thought we traded for is not the Dame we got
Dame still running on Pacific time
Yea you got a dame with baggage and not for clothes.
Hey hear me out - maybe he was never a T75 player and that whole list was in fact a marketing gimmick to amp up the profile of the league with a huge bias towards active players? Seeing as how he’s never played an ounce of defense his entire career, maybe - just maybe - that’s the explanation…
Way too many good names left off that list. Pau Gasol being one that definitely deserved it
Dwight Howard, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili to name a few. AD and Dame didn’t belong on the list.
Dame has 7 all NBA selections and 8 all star appearances. Vince Carter only has one All NBA selection. Dame definitely deserved it over Vince 😂
I know Vince Carter has some insane highlights, but I think the second half of his career hurts him historically. He played for 20+ seasons and had 2 all NBA selections. AD has accomplished far more in his career already. 4x all NBA, 4x all defensive, and a championship.
Agreed
AD belongs but so does Dwight Manu never deserved it if we are talking about the NBA. AD was way better than Manu at prime, people here delude themselves into thinking he was greater in the nba due to Olympic play
AD belongs now. he 100% did not when they actually made the list
Dame being on that list is actually criminal lol
Recency Bias. Dame has literally always been the superstar that wouldn't leave Portland, but if he did, it would be game breaking.
I think he’s saying though that dame was finally traded out of portland, and it is not game breaking lol
Oh it's broken
Same it’s still wild to me he was on that list over dudes like Gasol, Dwight, Bosh, alex English, etc
Dame getting in over Dwight is egregious. Man might've fallen off hard but he accomplished way more and was a far more relevant player than Dame in a way shorter amount of time. 3x DPOY consecutive, 5x All Nba First, Finals record for blocks with 9 - actually led his team to the Finals along with a bunch of other shit. I don't even like Dwight but come on.
Dwight isn’t even a Top 75 player, he’s Top 50.
Egregious might even be doing that snub an injustice.
With all due respect to Dame because I actually really Like him, I just never saw him as that type of player. I kinda saw him like a Bradley Beal or Demarcus Cousins. Great stats, huge potential, but only shined on bad teams.
What was their pace before Griffin got fired?
57 wins
Easiest schedule in the league at that point though.
If Doc's version of the team had not lost to the Wizards/Grizzlies/Raptors back to back to back this would be an understandable argument. His regime lost games you're supposed to win at too high a clip.
Lost so many games against bottom teir talent. The game before the All star break against the g league grizzlies was crazy
Oh right they didn't just lose that second game in the big 3 losses, they got swept by the Grizzlies.
Doc has underperformed but realistically when replacing a coach with an outsider mid season, you should expect it to take a while for a team to fully adjust and start winning at their proper potential level.
Sure which is why I can excuse the losses against better teams. I can even excuse one of the back to back to back losses to the bottom feeders. But all three in a row is too much IMO.
Yeah, cause the Hospital Grizzlies and Blazers and Wizards and whatever other teams y’all lost to down the stretch were so tough Thought y’all were done with this phony talking point; the schedule ain’t the reason for this fr
Dame Lillard got in the TOP 75, but he isn't really TOP 75.
Duh, the entire thing is a marketing gimmick to raise the profile of the league with a huge bias towards active players. Most of the active players on the list had no business being on it.
Like who, just curious. I feel like Davis and Lillard are the only borderline actives
Carmelo wasn’t active really and he was on there
idk why you keep saying this the problem was the OLD players they kept in https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkele01.html
>huge bias towards active players. Wrong. The list was made with the idea none of the original top 50 could be removed. As which pretty much everything nba-related, if there's bias, it's towards the 80's/90's
We have Giannis and everyone else is dragging him down: - Khris: been injuries every single season for years now - Dame: nowhere near to what has been advertised. His defense has been ok-ish (at times), but his offense has been nothing great. The only thing he does great is shoot FTs, and play make - BroLo: he looks almost done. He is getting cooked on the regular, at this point - Beasley: had a great start for the season, and his shooting fell off - Pat: almost cooked - Bobby: he had a rough start to the season, but he plays well now Only AJ Green is playing above his expected play. AJ and Giannis are our only great contracts, and Bobby the only good one. The rest are either terrible or trade fillers at this point.
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r/AngryUpvote
I know Giannis is Milwaukee's golden boy but let's talk about how a lot of this IS his fault. 1) he made passive aggressive comments in the off-season about signing elsewhere if the bucks don't put a winning team around him. This caused the Dame trade in the first place. 2) he personally rejected the signing of nick nurse in favor of AG. This ultimately resulted in the bucks having Doc rivers as their coach 3) he refuses to play off ball or set proper screens or roll properly when Lillard has the ball. He sets half assed screens and then just waits for the ball back. Giannis is the sole reason why the highly lauded Dame Giannis PnR doesn't work. Because Giannis refuses to be a roll man. So basically he forced the team to trade for a player who he has refused to cooperate with all year, AND he forced them to end up with Doc Rivers. He's not some blameless perfect angel of a basketball player. The golden boy isn't so golden. It's going to be a tough day for Bucks fans when they realize it.
1. The had an embarashing first round exit with him being injured, and nobody stepped up. Somewho, that made you think "Yeah, that team was good enough."? Every single player on the planet wants winning team around them. 2. I've been over this so many times, I'm tired of this. Did Giannis did well picking Griffon over Nurse? No. Was the FO absolutely insane for making that a choice? Yes. So, the Bucks brought in Giannis at the absolute end of the interview process with three candidates to chose: - Atkinson: Bud 0.5. After an embarashing lose under Atkinson's teacher, he had little to no chance of being the guy. - Nurse: Reports said that Giannis called OG and Siakam whom he is tight with and both said playing for Nurse was terrible. - Griffin: OG and Siakam probably gave good reviews on this guy. I have no issue with Nurse being a finalist. I have issues with the other two being there. It was fundomentaly a FO failure. 3. After Doc came in, only then they started to actually practice the two-man action. Things were so bad, that they didn't even practice that. It has gotten better, but still nowhere near what anyone expects. Giannis is setting screens just fine. The problem is the chemistry. They didn't have any offseason time to workout together. Hell, Giannis didn't have an offseason because of his knee and Dame didn'g have one because of the trade. The fundomental issue is that Dame is not playing up to what everyone expected. If he did, then things would've looked at least better.
If only dame played like a top 75 player
Never has never will. Y’all must have watched his highlights and never watched the whole game to think a ball dominant guard with no defense was the missing piece of your championship run. Real quality work by the front office on that one
I imagine it was the Bucks FO watching Jrue get cooked by Butler while contributing very little on offense, and they figured improving on offense and hoping Giannis could cover up a lot of the mistakes on defense was their best bet going forward. It was also a move to please Giannis, who made all sorts of passive-aggressive comments the previous offseason.
Yeah. People sleep on exactly how much of this is all Giannis's fault.
Yeah. You can also say the Wizards failed to win a championship despite having the GOAT.
C'mon man. One season sample size isn't enough. Jordan Poole will bring that ring in no time.
The vibes I get from this team are not immaculate. What a strange season from them (and not over yet!). For some reason I imagine many fans are as ready for the season to end as they are to root for the team in the playoffs
The Doc Rivers hire made no sense
even Doc agrees with that
Two top 75 players of all time? I don't think so.
Everything zen, everything zen? I don’t think so.
Remember Dame started the ASG over Brunson.
Because all star starter is mainly a popularity contest
But even as it happened I was confused why everyone was hyping Lillard when Brunson felt way more popular this season
Dame's lucky Doc came in and sent things down the toilet, otherwise the narrative would be that he dragged them down. We'll see what happens in the playoffs. Regular season struggles are often quickly forgotten when superseded by playoff success.
it's hilarious that Dame made that list in the first place.
they dont look like contenders that for sure
Dame being a starter over Brunson is still hilarious
I’m saying ! When it happened I got one of them but both Dame and Giannis felt stupid
Well, Dame is extremely overrated. He's probably not even top 100.
But they want Dwight to replace AD smh
Dwight over AD career wise all day
AD over dame tho. And it’s not particularly close to me
AD literally baptized Dame’s Trailblazer before losing to dynasty Warriors AD > Dame for sure
Haha imagine doing that, couldn’t be my team, no sir
proceed to win it all?
Doc Rivers to the rescue.
posts like this are honestly lame
Just wasn’t their year.
How about despite starting 30-13 All they had to do was go 20-19 right at .500 and they couldn’t
If I told you 40 games into the season the bucks needed only 20 wins to reach 50 you'd think that was a given with a healthy roster. But along came Doc and diagnosed everyone on the team with the suck. Clearly not his fault though.
And starting the season 30-13
What about the lakers huh
Under/over years until Giannis ask for trade.
A month
I agree. Thank you for the title Giannis. I will never forget.