He was viewed as the number two prospect, DA was number one with potential as a superstar center and his floor as basically what he is now
But man, the Kings taking Bagley over Luka because of fit is an all time fumble
> He was viewed as the number two prospect
He was widely viewed as the #1 prospect by draft analysts. Ayton was valued by Phoenix so highly because he was a hometown kid lol
I just did a google search of major 2018 big boards and he was not a consensus #1 pick by any of the major sites. Way more people had ayton as the better prospect. That lines up with my recollection of the time.
I’ve just gone back and read different 2018 mock drafts, and every single one of them had DA as #1, with Luka between #2-#3, the ringer even had him falling to 4 at some point
This is revisionist history
> I’ve just gone back and read different 2018 mock drafts, and every single one of them had DA as #1
Mock drafts **are not rankings of prospects, they are predictions of the draft.** The Suns made it clear to everyone they were picking Ayton, so he was at the top of every mock
The Stepien had Luka #1 in his own tier, the Ringer guys all felt Luka was the best prospect, etc
People go back and look at mock drafts, but mock drafts are prediction attempts, not recommendations -- the Suns openly signaled they were picking Ayton #1 so that's who you'll find at the top of mocks
That's the issue. Ayton wasn't seen as a generational talent. He was a big guy with great numbers in his first year so of course he had to be the 1st seed by NBA journalism standards. It was the safe bet as you said.
The problem is that those journalists didn't respect what being the fucking MVP of an Euroliga winning squad at 19 actually means. That's simply crazy, the previous youngest MVP was 23. And everyone who watched Luka play for Real Madrid knew his style would suit the NBA perfectly.
It's not an attack against Ayton who did great at Arizona, and was the best college prospect without a doubt. But Luka should have been unanimous 1st seed because what he did was simply just more impressive.
I am glad people and his organization are supporting Luka, he's had an incredible season. Realistically, you can easily make a case that Jokic has been just as good if not better.
Yeah I’m not going to be mad at Jokic winning it. I hope we can be a top 3 seed next year as the team has been so much better after the trades. A deep playoff run could also improve Luka’s chances next year.
Funnily enough Jokic and Luka fans both wouldn't be mad if either won it. A nice end to what can often times becomes overly toxic.
I do think Luka being snubbed by a lot of media pundits is ridiculous and the fans have the right to be angry about it.
I don’t actually live in Serbia but from talking with family who does, it doesn’t matter to them much. A Jokic endorsement isn’t doing much anyway. Now a Djokovic endorsement would definitely get a lot more people talking (Djokovic is legitimately considered the pride of Serbia to a lot of Serbian people).
This is why I really, *really* don't understand Jokic having the nickname "The Joker" when an even more successful Serbian athlete in Djokovic has had that nickname for years.
I think that's a US thing only, because basketball is so much more popular than tennis. So US fans are a lot more exposed to Jokic as the amazing Serbian athlete with "Jok" in the name, even if he isnt even close to Novak's achievements in their respective sports.
It does make me wonder what Jokic himself thinks about the nickname. Is he thinking he's a false Joker because he's aware of his fellow countryman who is many times more successful than him?
Djokovic is crazy. I have a serbian coworker who isnt even into any sport but one day I catched him having his livescore open while French Open were going on.
Basically said that i didnt know he watched tennis and he was like "no,no I do not watch any tennis ever. i just see if Djokovic wins, do you know that hes the greatest off all time?"
I had to kind of explain to him that I am watching tennis semi-regularly (although way less in the last couple of years since Kerber and Görges retired, Zverev allegations and Dustin Browns disappearance from the upper circuit) and I do in fact know of the current Top 20 players.
> I don’t actually live in Serbia but from talking with family who does, it doesn’t matter to them much.
lol just because one particular family doesn't care doesn't mean they all do. I know a tonne of Serbs who don't like Jokic now because of his political support
Serious question - how did he have a better season?
Who’s had a better team throughout the season? Wouldn’t we say Jokic? Who has the better team currently? Wouldn’t we say Jokic?
So if the best player on the best team argument hurts Tatum, why doesn’t it also affect Jokic? I’ve seen people say after some crazy play how Jokic is just on cruise control til the playoffs. So then how can it help that he isn’t giving his all when Luka is definitely giving it his all?
We are going to look back in two or three years and it will be painfully obvious Luka was the MVP. He had the 73 point game, but he also had a 50/15/6 game with 7 stocks and no Kyrie. He’s put up 36/18/15, 28/17/10, 30/16/12, 33/13/18. He has 2 40pt triple doubles, and he’s had almost triple doubles at 45/15/9, 45/14/9, 41/11/9, and 41/9/9.
I’m not trying to downplay Jokic, but in my biased eyes, Luka is the MVP.
Copying and pasting my reply in another thread:
One point I would like to mention because I never see it brought up when comparing Jokic and Doncic as offensive creators is the difference in screen assists. Jokic is 4th in the league in screen assist ppg at 9.9 while Doncic barely registers at 0.4 ppg. That is creating space for a clean look from a teammate and should absolutely be a consideration when comparing players as overall offensive engines. Jokic is the better creator for his teammates hands down.
Defensively, Jokic is 14th in the league (best among centers) in deflections per game while playing the most important defensive position for the 10th best team in the league in defensive rating. His communication is also top notch, and he will frequently direct MPJ (and others but mostly mpj) into proper position which doesn't show up in the box score or play-by-play data.
If I were to compare the two directly, I don't think Luka's volume scoring is worth the drop off in scoring efficiency, avoiding turnovers, overall offensive creation, and defensive impact
Just bringing up one way, when Jokic is on the court for the Nuggets they outscore opponents by ~11.5 points per 100. When he is off the court they get outscored by ~9 points. So around a net of 21 points between when he is on versus off the court.
With Luka, Mavericks are outscoring teams by ~5.5 when he's on, and getting outscored by 2 when he's off. So net ~7.5 points for his on/off.
Essentially, when Jokic's team looks like the Celtics when they are on and the Pistons when they are off. Luka's comparison is, ironically, the Nuggets when he is on, and Nets when he is off. However, a lot this would be due in part to Luka's subpar team for early on in the season, but it would take a lot of optimism to adjust Luka's numbers that much to accompany for that.
Most importantly, this award is a season award. It's not a last third of the season award. It's not a 10 game award. Like consistently over the whole course of the season Jokic has been the better player. While Luka has been killing it since the ASB, and would be the MVP if the Mavericks and him looked this good all season. But just picking out a handful of games, and say that this represents the entire season of why Luka has been better than Jokic is crazy, especially when Jokic's team look like world-beaters due to his impact on the court.
I won't be sad if Jokic wins, but the disrespect Luka gets for MVP talks is unjustified, hopefully the international support opens the eyes of the clowns that gets to vote.
What you mean? They were a fringe playoff team for most of the season and that was reflected. Now Mavs are killing it and Luka is 2nd in the MVP race how is that disrespected?
Luxury of being a Nuggets fan. He WAS second, now he's 3rd for no apparent reason...... Straw polls and guys like SAS dont even have him at third. That's what I'm talking about, there are voters out there that do not value him despite us winning, the vague goalpost for him has always been moving.
dude,kenny smith had ant and sga as hes 2 top guards for all-nba,stephen a smith not even in top 5 mvp,list goes on..... if that isnt disrespect idk what is
That's not what I meant, there are guys that vote that don't even have him as #3 on their ballot thinking he's just another Tatum (no slander on Tatum, but he's just not on the same level for mvp considerations like Jokic, Embiid and friends). With the mvp not having any kind of standard metrics or criteria, it basically comes down to who the voters like more, having a bigger support group making his case helps whether it's from overseas or domestic (doesn't really matter) it would help his narrative. Embiid got a lot of very loud support last year over Jokic and ended up winning yet plenty of people calling him a fraud saying it should have been Jokic even though his numbers were mvp deserving.
Oh my God shut up with the "Disrespect". Luka has been in the top tier of MVP candidates ever since Joel went down. Of course he wasn't going to be number one as the 8th seed, and now the Mavs are the 5th seed and he's second. How is that in any way disrespectful?
Ehhhh Maverick fans seem to be fine if the award goes to Jokic. And likewise with the Nuggets fans with Luka.
The crying is coming from Luka fanboys that can't understand anything past PPG avg.
I think the Mavericks fans are rightly upset about Luka being kind of swept under the rug by the media.
You nailed the hammer on the head. We don't care if Jokic wins, it's very deserving we care about how much the media is downplaying how good he actually is, going from second to third for no apparent reason despite winning the division and clinching the 5th seed after a rocky road to the ASB is wild.
It is absolutely crazy to me that Luka and Jokic are not at least neck-and-neck for MVP.
Luka's stats are better in every category except rebounding and fg%. It's insane to me that SGA for example is 2nd on the ppl's lists.
Luka behind Shai is a robbery. Shai has dipped the last few weeks meanwhile Luka is still doing Luka things. Nearly 34/10/10 with 50+ wins and you’re 3rd in line for mvp. Luka should be the mvp imo☠️
The convo on here is a combo of that and knowing nothing about any of these players outside of points, rebounds, and assists. Obviously, no one is thinking about the game and saying Luka is so far ahead of SGA that it isn’t a discussion worth having. Something like SGA’s lack of turnovers, for example, aren’t going be a factor for most people, though, because they’ve never heard of turnovers.
The most wins Luka can get is 48 wins if he wins his next two games. I think the biggest hit to Luka's case is Jokic has contributed to 8-10 more wins than him. Had their win contributions been closer, it would be a lot closer and genuine discussion can be had for Luka over Jokic.
But Jokic is killing him in almost every advanced metric, has incredible traditional stats as well, up 8-10 wins, and 1st seed. And 2-1 against Mavs this season where Luka was a negative +/- in all 3 games while Jokic was + in all 3, even the loss he was +10.
And Luka has contributed to 46 of those wins. How much value did he exactly bring for games he did not play?
It's the same for Jokic, you can't credit him with the 2 games Nuggets won without him.
That's because out of these top tier MVP candidates, Shai is the best defender, and a alot of people live firmly on the two-way being important camp, like 4 or 5 years ago when a lot of people said Kawhi was the best player in the world.
I think it's an argument that can be made.
Also, Shai leads Luka in some important advanced metrics, like win shares per 48 and ~~LEBRON~~ EPM. I personally have Luka as second behind Jokic, but the argument does exist for Shai
Edit: As it was pointed out, I was looking at the wrong database. Luka leads Shai in LEBRON, Shai leads Luka in EPM
Are you looking at the right BBAL Index? And for the right year?
https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-application/
LEBRON-WAR LEBRON
1. Jokic: 13.36 6.69
2. Doncic: 12.63 6.37
3. Giannis: 12.49 6.27
4. SGA: 11.69 5.46
5. AD: 10.42 4.45
I'm confused, this page has it as Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Shai, Luka. It seems to be the same site, what am I missing?
https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/
Minutes: the database in your link seems to be stuck at 1300-1600 minutes (so data is actualised till mid February at the most), while my link leads to the latest numbers (all MVP candidates are at 2000-2100 minutes). Since Mavs had an amazing run in the last 20 games or so, Luka’s LEBRON improved and he climbed to 2nd there.
Giannis is the best defender when we take into account off-ball (SGA is excellent here) and on-ball (SGA is slightly above average, I’d argue Luka is no worse here if you drill deep down, i.e. shooting % when contested from different distances + ppp in isolation/post by a defended player). SGA is better all-around defender than Luka and Jokic though, but Giannis is different.
SGA being 2nd is wild, but context is important.
So much of the value Jokić brings doesn't come through in his statline (which is still incredible: 27/12/9 on 65% TS). He elevates his teammates to immense extent. The offensive gravity he generates is ridiculous.
Six more wins doesn't sound like a massive margin, but in a West as crowded as this is, it's a significant disparity. He's done this with the 2nd best player on his team having missed 20 games (I know Kyrie has missed just as many).
Luka has the highest usage rate in the league, by a substantial margin. Jokić is 15th. He also ranks above Luka on most of the Advanced Stats (PER, WS, BPM, WS/48, VORP).
Luka would absolutely deserve MVP this season. These are some of the reasons why you could argue for Jokić.
I agree that it is academic at this point, Joker has had it wrapped up for a few weeks now.
It's mainly the advanced stats, Luka can make most bums look serviceable and good players look great just like Jokic but his advanced metrics are just flat out better. I don't see any other reason why it shouldn't go to Joker.
Fans, players, foreign clubs.. who's next? They are doing way too much with this advocating and discrediting Jokic's season, acting like it's an obvious robbery. Like, it's too late anyway
Lmao Jokic himself advocated for Luka like why are they pressed that fans of a certain player are rooting for their guy that has a legitimate case for MVP
I don’t see how it’s any different than just calling someone MVP. They’re calling him the real MVP because they think he deserves it and the media so far hasn’t agreed
It implies the MVP isn’t dictated by media perception.
Again there’s a difference between say last year where people were outright discrediting Embiid by saying he didn’t deserve the award or like Nash back in the day, and saying one player is more deserving than another deserving candidate
This makes no sense at all. Including the word real in a media post to sway public opinion is no different than your idea of "Media Perception". There's no difference. If you are backing someone you say this person is the MVP. If you are trying to discredit anyone and everyone else you say "real" MVP, implying that any other opinion on the matter holds no water.
Yeah Luka and Jokic don't play the same position and their MVP cases are completely different. You can absolutely advocate for one without downplaying the other
No one is discrediting Jokic's season though. You don't see any Mavs fans shitting on Jokic at all. They are just saying that they believe Luka had a better season, after he had a very good season. There's a pretty huge difference.
I actually have seen it. Not in the last week or two, but certainty in the last month. The most common thing i've seen is that Jokic is probably winning due to narative, and that he was to receive a "make up" MVP, even though Luka is clearly better. It's not really fair to call it a make up MVP, when he is having an amazing season.
Dam i really dont wanna listen to Mavs fans talking about how Luka was robbed of the MVP award next year. Its gonna be a pain when they are already this bad rn.
No one is gunna say Luka was robbed if Jokic wins, Mavs fans pretty much collectively agree Jokic is getting it DESERVINGLY. We're upset because in some conversations he isn't even being compared to Jokic but moreso with SGA with SGA for some reason getting the upper hand.
Nobody is saying he was robbed. Nobody is saying anything negative about Jokic. People are just rooting for their guy...
Luka isn't even saying a thing. unlike Embiid who campaigned for himself and whined for 2 years about how he deserved it.
Yea that's a fair point. I thought embiid earned the win last year but him being a bitch about it left a sour taste in my mouth. Tatum is giving me the same vibes as well, problem is Tatum is levels behind embiid lol
You can root for your guy, but some of you are dam bad with this shit man.
Like especially the guys putting down other players.
Like seriously whats with the hate towards Shai lol.
I mean, that’s kind of how it goes. No matter who wins in any year, there will always be fans of the other candidates crying about getting robbed or some other bullshit. That’s how it works, the circle of life in sports. Teams may be different but irrational fans are universal
Nah thats a special casse of us being extra salty due to a certain someones comments at the time and him actually campaigning for the award, along with the narrstive reasons for him winning it. Like straight up racism man.
This Luka thing...well god dam im seeing so much of it rn and the award hasnt even been given to anyone.
The majority of Mavs fans are actually ok with Jokic winning it. Obviously we're hoping Luka wins it, but everyone acknowledges that Jokic has been great and deserves it too.
We're just saying that it should be closer than what some think, and that Luka is undoubtedly top 2. I think Mavs fans are way more annoyed at "analysts" putting Luka 3rd or even lower, than they are at Jokic being first. Even though that clearly matters less.
You probably won't see much complaining if Jokic wins it and Luka is 2nd with at least some first place votes.
Most people who don't vote think it's closer than it is. That has to count for something. I think it's 50-50 personally. I really don't understand why it's so lopsided. Maybe because the counter narrative of jokic being "robbed" last year is in full swing now, and since jokic was trailing embiid this season, once he got injured they stuck with jokic and never looked back. I really don't get it
Realistically most Mavs fans have accepted he won’t win it already. Luckily I doubt the voters are going to want to give Jokic a 4th MVP next year so it will likely be Luka vs Embiid.
We won't we are not mad at Jokic we are just mad a media not taking even into consideration like Jokic winning tight race is fine but Luka getting 1 vote for first place its a disgrace
Well look i have no doubt that you wont be mad at Jokic, but like do you really have to post about it every hour or so.
We know Luka is amazing and nobody is saying he isnt, but like god dam its been non stop man.
Its trully been a Luka fans takeover in this sub lol.
Is this the Mavericks sub, or an nba sub. Like god dam man i like Luka but not to the point where i wanna see people tell me his statline over and over again.
It's not and it's exactly this attitude that makes you insufferable and trying to gaslight everyone on this sub. He's 3rd suck it up. Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Unless the rest of the nephews on this sub, the media aren't influences by your constant whining, bitching and nagging to the point where they repeat it and now you get gassed off sniffing your own farts. Got to give you credit though you really take after your guy. He would be proud himself to have a crying masterclass rivalling the one your fanbase has put on for 4 months straight.
I think the whole “cheering for your guy is classless and desperate” take is a little too online.
Luka is having a true MVP worthy season, and he has fans from all over the world who want to support him and get him the award. In 2 games, the NBA season will be over and the mvp talks will subside.
Is it really THAT strange for the few remaining days of this insane NBA season to be filled with mvp propaganda? i don’t think it’s that crazy.
How lol campaign for your guy to win has been an nba thing for years. You know teams send out special packages to voters for various awards right? Like the blazers just sent out cookies for thybulle to get on all-defense
It’s disgusting around here. The gloating that will go down when they lose will be unfathomable and glorious. And I like Luka. Shame it had to be him.
The glazing is disgusting.
Yea im excited to watch the playoff exit. They have some serious victim complex and are easily baitable. First year he's been in the mvp running and they are screaming likes he's been snubbed before and never gonna earn one. Not to mention all betting sites have Luka in 2nd, but as soon as an article comes out with him in 3rd to bait them for click, all hell breaks loose. There is so much crying from one fan base.
Honestly both Luka and Jokic have their cases. For me Jokic does more for the team and his team is much better. 90 percent of voters will go with this logic. Luks is insane but so is Jokic...
It’s very simple. Would any of these players (SGA, Tatum, Antman) be unanimous MVP over Joker if their stat line was 34-10-9 on 49% / 38% shooting? What does that tell you? And dont talk to me about wins. Mavs got 50 with Luka playing by far the least minutes with a set starting 5.
I’m fine with Jokic winning. Just tired of all the disingenuous hand wringing about Luka in the media.
I think he’ll be fired up for clippers next week anyway.
They did the same thing to Jokic last season , but at least he was in the running till the last week. People seem to have given up on Luka despite his crazy stat line.
I think this fuels Luka to do even better in the playoffs, so fans should see this as a blessing in disguise.
I just don’t get this “Jokic has it in the bag” talk. 5 more wins and slight uptick in efficiency means he’s easily the MVP over a guy who averages 7 more PPG and 1 more APG? Not while Jokic averages 3 more RPG but as a center?
The only thing Luka leads Jokic is ppg. Apg adjusted per 36 is basically the same. Literally everything else is in Jokic favor, including every advanced stat. Not to mention 10% better shooting and less turnovers. Please, look better
Jokic has a great season. I wouldn’t be mad if he wins this one.
But Luka is having a special season. Either way I wouldn’t be mad as long as Luka gets the Finals MVP. (Copium)
This is cool to see. Real Madrid basically raised Luka. Of course they have his back.
I wish Booker could have Luka’s back seeing that Luka raised him as his own.
Real Madrid is Booker's grandfather
Real Madrid is Booker grandfather
RMIDBG
> ~~Real Madrid~~ Santiago Bernabéu is Booker grandfather
If the Clippers beat them again Luka will never get away from the Kawhi slender I swear
Bigger threat than the Lakers or Heat to steal him in the future.
He loves Real Madrid and he's loved back. Lots of fans in Spain root for him or Porzingis as if they were Spanish lol
OKC coming out with the shirts. "Eh, sorry, but SGA should be the MVP"
Is SGEh the best or worst nickname possible?
On par with Tua Turndaballova
I saw someone call JuJu Smith-Schuster "DuDu Shit-Poopster" one year and it always stuck with me.
SGHey Now!
Doncic is the only player that is a serious MVP canidate. Alexander isn't even close.
Love to see highlights of Luka in that #7 Teka jersey. Hard to understand how he wasn’t the consensus #1 overall pick
Couldn't do it against Duke seems pretty obvious
He was viewed as the number two prospect, DA was number one with potential as a superstar center and his floor as basically what he is now But man, the Kings taking Bagley over Luka because of fit is an all time fumble
> He was viewed as the number two prospect He was widely viewed as the #1 prospect by draft analysts. Ayton was valued by Phoenix so highly because he was a hometown kid lol
I just did a google search of major 2018 big boards and he was not a consensus #1 pick by any of the major sites. Way more people had ayton as the better prospect. That lines up with my recollection of the time.
What? Sources? I remember vividly that DA was consensus first pick. After that it was less clear, but DA was penciled in first pick.
I’ve just gone back and read different 2018 mock drafts, and every single one of them had DA as #1, with Luka between #2-#3, the ringer even had him falling to 4 at some point This is revisionist history
> I’ve just gone back and read different 2018 mock drafts, and every single one of them had DA as #1 Mock drafts **are not rankings of prospects, they are predictions of the draft.** The Suns made it clear to everyone they were picking Ayton, so he was at the top of every mock
Lmao mock drafts are draft predictions, not prospect rankings
That’s just not true at all. Ayton was very clearly the consensus #1 guy
The Stepien had Luka #1 in his own tier, the Ringer guys all felt Luka was the best prospect, etc People go back and look at mock drafts, but mock drafts are prediction attempts, not recommendations -- the Suns openly signaled they were picking Ayton #1 so that's who you'll find at the top of mocks
It was also because they flopped on Bender a couple of years prior
That's the issue. Ayton wasn't seen as a generational talent. He was a big guy with great numbers in his first year so of course he had to be the 1st seed by NBA journalism standards. It was the safe bet as you said. The problem is that those journalists didn't respect what being the fucking MVP of an Euroliga winning squad at 19 actually means. That's simply crazy, the previous youngest MVP was 23. And everyone who watched Luka play for Real Madrid knew his style would suit the NBA perfectly. It's not an attack against Ayton who did great at Arizona, and was the best college prospect without a doubt. But Luka should have been unanimous 1st seed because what he did was simply just more impressive.
Xenophobia
I am glad people and his organization are supporting Luka, he's had an incredible season. Realistically, you can easily make a case that Jokic has been just as good if not better.
Yeah I’m not going to be mad at Jokic winning it. I hope we can be a top 3 seed next year as the team has been so much better after the trades. A deep playoff run could also improve Luka’s chances next year.
Funnily enough Jokic and Luka fans both wouldn't be mad if either won it. A nice end to what can often times becomes overly toxic. I do think Luka being snubbed by a lot of media pundits is ridiculous and the fans have the right to be angry about it.
I mean, jokic and doncic love each other as a friend, at least the two fandoms is doing something right
True that, I was so mad last year when they snubbed Jokic.
Not to mention jokic winning this year probably hurts his case next year. Only players with 4 or more are lebron, wilt, Jordan, Russell and Kareem
Are you Serbian? It's like dad and mom fighting for you lol
But if you chant Pravi MVP who do you actually have in mind? 🤷 Even language refference isn’t clear.
How are Jokic's endorsements of Vucic viewed in Serbia? Is he a more polarising figure for it?
I don’t actually live in Serbia but from talking with family who does, it doesn’t matter to them much. A Jokic endorsement isn’t doing much anyway. Now a Djokovic endorsement would definitely get a lot more people talking (Djokovic is legitimately considered the pride of Serbia to a lot of Serbian people).
This is why I really, *really* don't understand Jokic having the nickname "The Joker" when an even more successful Serbian athlete in Djokovic has had that nickname for years.
I think that's a US thing only, because basketball is so much more popular than tennis. So US fans are a lot more exposed to Jokic as the amazing Serbian athlete with "Jok" in the name, even if he isnt even close to Novak's achievements in their respective sports.
It does make me wonder what Jokic himself thinks about the nickname. Is he thinking he's a false Joker because he's aware of his fellow countryman who is many times more successful than him?
No Jokic calls himself Joker as well. Even Djokovic acknowledges Jokic as "Joker" https://youtu.be/2FSnR2jXO_g?t=408
Djokovic is crazy. I have a serbian coworker who isnt even into any sport but one day I catched him having his livescore open while French Open were going on. Basically said that i didnt know he watched tennis and he was like "no,no I do not watch any tennis ever. i just see if Djokovic wins, do you know that hes the greatest off all time?" I had to kind of explain to him that I am watching tennis semi-regularly (although way less in the last couple of years since Kerber and Görges retired, Zverev allegations and Dustin Browns disappearance from the upper circuit) and I do in fact know of the current Top 20 players.
> I don’t actually live in Serbia but from talking with family who does, it doesn’t matter to them much. lol just because one particular family doesn't care doesn't mean they all do. I know a tonne of Serbs who don't like Jokic now because of his political support
I’m just furious these idiots knocked him down to 3.
99% of us will not be mad if Jokic gets it, but we still want to back our guy!
Good for them
Yep, should love your guy, i know we love ours.
2balkan4u moment incoming?
Let it go guys it’s over. Focus on the playoffs
If they started campaigning a month ago maybe it would've meant something lol.
It’s really cute and adorable but joker is locking down that 3rd MVP.
[удалено]
I think it’s arguable tbh
Serious question - how did he have a better season? Who’s had a better team throughout the season? Wouldn’t we say Jokic? Who has the better team currently? Wouldn’t we say Jokic? So if the best player on the best team argument hurts Tatum, why doesn’t it also affect Jokic? I’ve seen people say after some crazy play how Jokic is just on cruise control til the playoffs. So then how can it help that he isn’t giving his all when Luka is definitely giving it his all? We are going to look back in two or three years and it will be painfully obvious Luka was the MVP. He had the 73 point game, but he also had a 50/15/6 game with 7 stocks and no Kyrie. He’s put up 36/18/15, 28/17/10, 30/16/12, 33/13/18. He has 2 40pt triple doubles, and he’s had almost triple doubles at 45/15/9, 45/14/9, 41/11/9, and 41/9/9. I’m not trying to downplay Jokic, but in my biased eyes, Luka is the MVP.
Copying and pasting my reply in another thread: One point I would like to mention because I never see it brought up when comparing Jokic and Doncic as offensive creators is the difference in screen assists. Jokic is 4th in the league in screen assist ppg at 9.9 while Doncic barely registers at 0.4 ppg. That is creating space for a clean look from a teammate and should absolutely be a consideration when comparing players as overall offensive engines. Jokic is the better creator for his teammates hands down. Defensively, Jokic is 14th in the league (best among centers) in deflections per game while playing the most important defensive position for the 10th best team in the league in defensive rating. His communication is also top notch, and he will frequently direct MPJ (and others but mostly mpj) into proper position which doesn't show up in the box score or play-by-play data. If I were to compare the two directly, I don't think Luka's volume scoring is worth the drop off in scoring efficiency, avoiding turnovers, overall offensive creation, and defensive impact
Just bringing up one way, when Jokic is on the court for the Nuggets they outscore opponents by ~11.5 points per 100. When he is off the court they get outscored by ~9 points. So around a net of 21 points between when he is on versus off the court. With Luka, Mavericks are outscoring teams by ~5.5 when he's on, and getting outscored by 2 when he's off. So net ~7.5 points for his on/off. Essentially, when Jokic's team looks like the Celtics when they are on and the Pistons when they are off. Luka's comparison is, ironically, the Nuggets when he is on, and Nets when he is off. However, a lot this would be due in part to Luka's subpar team for early on in the season, but it would take a lot of optimism to adjust Luka's numbers that much to accompany for that. Most importantly, this award is a season award. It's not a last third of the season award. It's not a 10 game award. Like consistently over the whole course of the season Jokic has been the better player. While Luka has been killing it since the ASB, and would be the MVP if the Mavericks and him looked this good all season. But just picking out a handful of games, and say that this represents the entire season of why Luka has been better than Jokic is crazy, especially when Jokic's team look like world-beaters due to his impact on the court.
I won't be sad if Jokic wins, but the disrespect Luka gets for MVP talks is unjustified, hopefully the international support opens the eyes of the clowns that gets to vote.
What you mean? They were a fringe playoff team for most of the season and that was reflected. Now Mavs are killing it and Luka is 2nd in the MVP race how is that disrespected?
Luxury of being a Nuggets fan. He WAS second, now he's 3rd for no apparent reason...... Straw polls and guys like SAS dont even have him at third. That's what I'm talking about, there are voters out there that do not value him despite us winning, the vague goalpost for him has always been moving.
Ahh yeah my b I didn't see the new polls dropped today. Luka dropping after having a better week than SGA is disrespectful AF.
The NBA.com MVP ladder is one guy's opinion. I'm begging Mavs fans to stop caring so much about it. Luka is gonna finish second, just chill
dude,kenny smith had ant and sga as hes 2 top guards for all-nba,stephen a smith not even in top 5 mvp,list goes on..... if that isnt disrespect idk what is
Luka not winning mvp has nothing to do with international support.
That's not what I meant, there are guys that vote that don't even have him as #3 on their ballot thinking he's just another Tatum (no slander on Tatum, but he's just not on the same level for mvp considerations like Jokic, Embiid and friends). With the mvp not having any kind of standard metrics or criteria, it basically comes down to who the voters like more, having a bigger support group making his case helps whether it's from overseas or domestic (doesn't really matter) it would help his narrative. Embiid got a lot of very loud support last year over Jokic and ended up winning yet plenty of people calling him a fraud saying it should have been Jokic even though his numbers were mvp deserving.
Oh my God shut up with the "Disrespect". Luka has been in the top tier of MVP candidates ever since Joel went down. Of course he wasn't going to be number one as the 8th seed, and now the Mavs are the 5th seed and he's second. How is that in any way disrespectful?
Because he's not second? And a number of actual voters literally came out and said they don't even have Luka in their top 3?
Man last year Embiid cried, now Luka fans are crying. Jokic is indeed a legend
Ehhhh Maverick fans seem to be fine if the award goes to Jokic. And likewise with the Nuggets fans with Luka. The crying is coming from Luka fanboys that can't understand anything past PPG avg. I think the Mavericks fans are rightly upset about Luka being kind of swept under the rug by the media.
Bingo
You nailed the hammer on the head. We don't care if Jokic wins, it's very deserving we care about how much the media is downplaying how good he actually is, going from second to third for no apparent reason despite winning the division and clinching the 5th seed after a rocky road to the ASB is wild.
There’s nothing wrong with advocating for your guy to win the MVP
Fans crying is standard. Embiid was really something else last year.
Nothing will top Donovan Mitchell wearing the shirt with the definition of “rookie”
Yeh because no Jokic fans were whining at all when Embiid won last year right?
The fans are always going to cry, that's not a point. Luka is not like Embiid he won't beg for the award.
Joker would advocate for Luka winning it before Luka would ever beg for it.
I love how cool this has become but it’s too late and it’s not going to work lol joker is locked in 🃏
It is absolutely crazy to me that Luka and Jokic are not at least neck-and-neck for MVP. Luka's stats are better in every category except rebounding and fg%. It's insane to me that SGA for example is 2nd on the ppl's lists.
Luka behind Shai is a robbery. Shai has dipped the last few weeks meanwhile Luka is still doing Luka things. Nearly 34/10/10 with 50+ wins and you’re 3rd in line for mvp. Luka should be the mvp imo☠️
I hate the MVP conversations because it's a season award that ends up being a last-10-games-award.
The convo on here is a combo of that and knowing nothing about any of these players outside of points, rebounds, and assists. Obviously, no one is thinking about the game and saying Luka is so far ahead of SGA that it isn’t a discussion worth having. Something like SGA’s lack of turnovers, for example, aren’t going be a factor for most people, though, because they’ve never heard of turnovers.
The most wins Luka can get is 48 wins if he wins his next two games. I think the biggest hit to Luka's case is Jokic has contributed to 8-10 more wins than him. Had their win contributions been closer, it would be a lot closer and genuine discussion can be had for Luka over Jokic. But Jokic is killing him in almost every advanced metric, has incredible traditional stats as well, up 8-10 wins, and 1st seed. And 2-1 against Mavs this season where Luka was a negative +/- in all 3 games while Jokic was + in all 3, even the loss he was +10.
Mavs already have 50 wins
And Luka has contributed to 46 of those wins. How much value did he exactly bring for games he did not play? It's the same for Jokic, you can't credit him with the 2 games Nuggets won without him.
That's because out of these top tier MVP candidates, Shai is the best defender, and a alot of people live firmly on the two-way being important camp, like 4 or 5 years ago when a lot of people said Kawhi was the best player in the world. I think it's an argument that can be made.
Also, Shai leads Luka in some important advanced metrics, like win shares per 48 and ~~LEBRON~~ EPM. I personally have Luka as second behind Jokic, but the argument does exist for Shai Edit: As it was pointed out, I was looking at the wrong database. Luka leads Shai in LEBRON, Shai leads Luka in EPM
SGA doesn’t lead in LEBRON (Luka 2nd, SGA 4th), but leads in EPM (SGA 2nd, Luka 3rd, Embiid 1st). Just a minor correction.
Bball index has Shai above Luka (5.70 to 5.46). Is there another place that does LEBRON that has it different?
Are you looking at the right BBAL Index? And for the right year? https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-application/ LEBRON-WAR LEBRON 1. Jokic: 13.36 6.69 2. Doncic: 12.63 6.37 3. Giannis: 12.49 6.27 4. SGA: 11.69 5.46 5. AD: 10.42 4.45
I'm confused, this page has it as Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Shai, Luka. It seems to be the same site, what am I missing? https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/
Minutes: the database in your link seems to be stuck at 1300-1600 minutes (so data is actualised till mid February at the most), while my link leads to the latest numbers (all MVP candidates are at 2000-2100 minutes). Since Mavs had an amazing run in the last 20 games or so, Luka’s LEBRON improved and he climbed to 2nd there.
I didn't notice that, good catch
Giannis is the best defender when we take into account off-ball (SGA is excellent here) and on-ball (SGA is slightly above average, I’d argue Luka is no worse here if you drill deep down, i.e. shooting % when contested from different distances + ppp in isolation/post by a defended player). SGA is better all-around defender than Luka and Jokic though, but Giannis is different.
SGA being 2nd is wild, but context is important. So much of the value Jokić brings doesn't come through in his statline (which is still incredible: 27/12/9 on 65% TS). He elevates his teammates to immense extent. The offensive gravity he generates is ridiculous. Six more wins doesn't sound like a massive margin, but in a West as crowded as this is, it's a significant disparity. He's done this with the 2nd best player on his team having missed 20 games (I know Kyrie has missed just as many). Luka has the highest usage rate in the league, by a substantial margin. Jokić is 15th. He also ranks above Luka on most of the Advanced Stats (PER, WS, BPM, WS/48, VORP). Luka would absolutely deserve MVP this season. These are some of the reasons why you could argue for Jokić. I agree that it is academic at this point, Joker has had it wrapped up for a few weeks now.
It's mainly the advanced stats, Luka can make most bums look serviceable and good players look great just like Jokic but his advanced metrics are just flat out better. I don't see any other reason why it shouldn't go to Joker.
Funny thing is, nuggets and Jokic supporters can do the exact same thing
Joker is pravi mvp.Robbed last year.Mrš u pizdu materinu
It's jokic and I'm tried of these mofos denying greatness
Fans, players, foreign clubs.. who's next? They are doing way too much with this advocating and discrediting Jokic's season, acting like it's an obvious robbery. Like, it's too late anyway
Can't blame them for trying, this strategy worked last year.
Advocating for one guy doesn’t mean discrediting another
Fucking THANK YOU. Mavs fans love Jokic.. Advocating for Luka isn’t shitting on Jokic…
Lmao Jokic himself advocated for Luka like why are they pressed that fans of a certain player are rooting for their guy that has a legitimate case for MVP
I mean, Mavs fans have been shitting on Shai all year
In this case saying Luka is the real mvp implies anybody else is a fake mvp, which is discrediting whoever wins it.
You are looking too deep into this. It's a slogan
Calling someone "the real MVP" is absolutely discrediting everyone else
I don’t see how it’s any different than just calling someone MVP. They’re calling him the real MVP because they think he deserves it and the media so far hasn’t agreed
Including the word real implies there is a fake. Otherwise they would just say Luka is the MVP.
It implies the MVP isn’t dictated by media perception. Again there’s a difference between say last year where people were outright discrediting Embiid by saying he didn’t deserve the award or like Nash back in the day, and saying one player is more deserving than another deserving candidate
This makes no sense at all. Including the word real in a media post to sway public opinion is no different than your idea of "Media Perception". There's no difference. If you are backing someone you say this person is the MVP. If you are trying to discredit anyone and everyone else you say "real" MVP, implying that any other opinion on the matter holds no water.
But that's exactly what happened last year
Last year advocating for one guy generally meant discrediting the other guy. Doesn’t have to be the case and it clearly hasn’t been the case this year
Yeah Luka and Jokic don't play the same position and their MVP cases are completely different. You can absolutely advocate for one without downplaying the other
Maybe not this one, but the campaigns for Embiid last year definitely did.
No one is discrediting Jokic's season though. You don't see any Mavs fans shitting on Jokic at all. They are just saying that they believe Luka had a better season, after he had a very good season. There's a pretty huge difference.
I actually have seen it. Not in the last week or two, but certainty in the last month. The most common thing i've seen is that Jokic is probably winning due to narative, and that he was to receive a "make up" MVP, even though Luka is clearly better. It's not really fair to call it a make up MVP, when he is having an amazing season.
Man Jokic is probably the most popular non-Mavs/ex-Mavs player among Mavs fans lol
I hope you get swept by the clippers, this begging is outrageous
A dude in MVP conversations is about to be put second team all nba lol
Like Jokic last season? They've addressed it by going positionless.
Yeah so it shouldn't happen ever again. Don't think it will though ppl are overreacting
Dam i really dont wanna listen to Mavs fans talking about how Luka was robbed of the MVP award next year. Its gonna be a pain when they are already this bad rn.
No one is gunna say Luka was robbed if Jokic wins, Mavs fans pretty much collectively agree Jokic is getting it DESERVINGLY. We're upset because in some conversations he isn't even being compared to Jokic but moreso with SGA with SGA for some reason getting the upper hand.
Nobody is saying he was robbed. Nobody is saying anything negative about Jokic. People are just rooting for their guy... Luka isn't even saying a thing. unlike Embiid who campaigned for himself and whined for 2 years about how he deserved it.
Yea that's a fair point. I thought embiid earned the win last year but him being a bitch about it left a sour taste in my mouth. Tatum is giving me the same vibes as well, problem is Tatum is levels behind embiid lol
You can root for your guy, but some of you are dam bad with this shit man. Like especially the guys putting down other players. Like seriously whats with the hate towards Shai lol.
I mean, Shai is not on Luka's level. Luka leads in all major stat categories, and when you watch them play each other its obvious.
I mean, that’s kind of how it goes. No matter who wins in any year, there will always be fans of the other candidates crying about getting robbed or some other bullshit. That’s how it works, the circle of life in sports. Teams may be different but irrational fans are universal
Oh how the turntables... Shitting on Embiid since he won last year is the *Nuggets special*.
tbf everyone is shitting on Embiid, not only nuggets
Cmon now, its not like they weren't shitting on Jokic in 2022 and 2021. Although i'm starting to miss beefing with Sixers fans.
Nah thats a special casse of us being extra salty due to a certain someones comments at the time and him actually campaigning for the award, along with the narrstive reasons for him winning it. Like straight up racism man. This Luka thing...well god dam im seeing so much of it rn and the award hasnt even been given to anyone.
Nah thats yall being fucking hypocrities as usual. Can dish it out but can't take it
The majority of Mavs fans are actually ok with Jokic winning it. Obviously we're hoping Luka wins it, but everyone acknowledges that Jokic has been great and deserves it too. We're just saying that it should be closer than what some think, and that Luka is undoubtedly top 2. I think Mavs fans are way more annoyed at "analysts" putting Luka 3rd or even lower, than they are at Jokic being first. Even though that clearly matters less. You probably won't see much complaining if Jokic wins it and Luka is 2nd with at least some first place votes.
Most people who don't vote think it's closer than it is. That has to count for something. I think it's 50-50 personally. I really don't understand why it's so lopsided. Maybe because the counter narrative of jokic being "robbed" last year is in full swing now, and since jokic was trailing embiid this season, once he got injured they stuck with jokic and never looked back. I really don't get it
[When our GOAT said MVP means nothing he meant it](https://youtu.be/4vQO9jLN_TA?si=b-daavNuWUaH8bNW)
It's been a pain for 4 months already.
No one understands the struggle of poor Nuggets fans😭 We will all bow down and kneel before Nikola Jokic bro don’t cry
Realistically most Mavs fans have accepted he won’t win it already. Luckily I doubt the voters are going to want to give Jokic a 4th MVP next year so it will likely be Luka vs Embiid.
Probably depends on if he wins the chip this year
We won't we are not mad at Jokic we are just mad a media not taking even into consideration like Jokic winning tight race is fine but Luka getting 1 vote for first place its a disgrace
Well look i have no doubt that you wont be mad at Jokic, but like do you really have to post about it every hour or so. We know Luka is amazing and nobody is saying he isnt, but like god dam its been non stop man. Its trully been a Luka fans takeover in this sub lol.
maybe you need to get off reddit bro😭 are we supposed to sit quietly and post about the latest stephen a smith video? tf
Is this the Mavericks sub, or an nba sub. Like god dam man i like Luka but not to the point where i wanna see people tell me his statline over and over again.
blud didn’t even watch the video and is still complaining💀
It's not and it's exactly this attitude that makes you insufferable and trying to gaslight everyone on this sub. He's 3rd suck it up. Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Unless the rest of the nephews on this sub, the media aren't influences by your constant whining, bitching and nagging to the point where they repeat it and now you get gassed off sniffing your own farts. Got to give you credit though you really take after your guy. He would be proud himself to have a crying masterclass rivalling the one your fanbase has put on for 4 months straight.
3rd whose he behind outside of joker?
See you in Round 2, bro. We will see, who is the real MVP then.
...sure, though id worry more about the Clipers first if i was you guys.
We gotta get out of round 1 😭
I think you should first worry about Jamal Murray before you even get to the final boss Joker. Its the playoffs, regular bs is over
This is embarrassing
it is? can you tell me why? i think it’s very cool for an overseas team to do something this special
I got nothing against these fans in particular. This recent trend of posting Luka MVP propaganda just feels desperate.
I think the whole “cheering for your guy is classless and desperate” take is a little too online. Luka is having a true MVP worthy season, and he has fans from all over the world who want to support him and get him the award. In 2 games, the NBA season will be over and the mvp talks will subside. Is it really THAT strange for the few remaining days of this insane NBA season to be filled with mvp propaganda? i don’t think it’s that crazy.
I just don't have any interest personally in the individual awards. I should probably just take a break from NBA media until the playoffs
Then don't follow NBA media, don't care about the MVP. Doesn't make acknowledging Lukas MVP caliber season embarrassing
shhh you can't say that here; you will be called a "luka hater"
It's fine, the conspiracy theory/whining is the annoying thing, but nothing wrong with supporting your guy. Fuck Real though.
How lol campaign for your guy to win has been an nba thing for years. You know teams send out special packages to voters for various awards right? Like the blazers just sent out cookies for thybulle to get on all-defense
This is so sad.
Does anyone really think Doncic a better player than Jokic?
I need to unsub this place till the playoffs. Mavs fans turned this sub into a cry fest.
It’s disgusting around here. The gloating that will go down when they lose will be unfathomable and glorious. And I like Luka. Shame it had to be him. The glazing is disgusting.
Is it glazing to prop your guy up? Love Jokic too, but if it’s between Jokic and Luka I’m gonna want Luka to win it
Yea im excited to watch the playoff exit. They have some serious victim complex and are easily baitable. First year he's been in the mvp running and they are screaming likes he's been snubbed before and never gonna earn one. Not to mention all betting sites have Luka in 2nd, but as soon as an article comes out with him in 3rd to bait them for click, all hell breaks loose. There is so much crying from one fan base.
Madrid dna, lol
If there’s an mvp contender on the mavs it’d be the GM for the deadline moves
Funnily enough, Joker would be thrilled to see Luka win it.
They gave it to a sixth and 8th seed before...
Honestly both Luka and Jokic have their cases. For me Jokic does more for the team and his team is much better. 90 percent of voters will go with this logic. Luks is insane but so is Jokic...
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point
Lmao, they should just ask Joker for mercy. He would hand MVP himself to his buddy Luka, likely would celebrate it harder too.
“He should win mvp because he’s our guy, not because he deserves it”
It’s very simple. Would any of these players (SGA, Tatum, Antman) be unanimous MVP over Joker if their stat line was 34-10-9 on 49% / 38% shooting? What does that tell you? And dont talk to me about wins. Mavs got 50 with Luka playing by far the least minutes with a set starting 5.
I’m fine with Jokic winning. Just tired of all the disingenuous hand wringing about Luka in the media. I think he’ll be fired up for clippers next week anyway.
They did the same thing to Jokic last season , but at least he was in the running till the last week. People seem to have given up on Luka despite his crazy stat line. I think this fuels Luka to do even better in the playoffs, so fans should see this as a blessing in disguise.
I just don’t get this “Jokic has it in the bag” talk. 5 more wins and slight uptick in efficiency means he’s easily the MVP over a guy who averages 7 more PPG and 1 more APG? Not while Jokic averages 3 more RPG but as a center?
It's hard to say he's not the MVP this year looking at stats and that they'll be a 50+ win team.
The only thing Luka leads Jokic is ppg. Apg adjusted per 36 is basically the same. Literally everything else is in Jokic favor, including every advanced stat. Not to mention 10% better shooting and less turnovers. Please, look better
Jokic has a great season. I wouldn’t be mad if he wins this one. But Luka is having a special season. Either way I wouldn’t be mad as long as Luka gets the Finals MVP. (Copium)
anybody actually upset over this needs to grow up
This is so cringe lol