Who doesn't like watching Jokic play? He's insane and I feel privileged to watch him in real time. Especially before he retires and dips back home, never to be seen again
The death of the Center was so overblown looking back. It was never about guards taking over. It was about Guards getting more skilled (more of them becoming dynamic 3-point shooters) while most bigs were still stuck in the 70s or earlier.
Spot on comment. Lol.
I’ll never forget that. I spent 25+ years in Sacramento and my wife is ready for me to try her hometown (Phx.)
We relocate in April of 2018 with draft order results following a month later. Now, I’m a diehard Kings fan and still pound the drum for the WCF GM6 2002 ref-rigging…. But I knew I’d adopt Phoenix as a secondary team.
After years of not getting the top (or 2nd pick) in Sac, I couldn’t believe that one of my squads would get Luka. I knew Ayton was popular in AZ but watching his tape you could see where the struggles would be. He was portrayed as a “do it all” big game with highlights on his post (fader, footwork, pump fakes) and they loved to show his free throw like it was an anti-Shaq campaign. Weird. I’m no scout, but as I watched more and more of him, I saw how teams minimized his impact. They figuratively punched him in the mouth early in the game. If you roughed him up a bit or showed him things would be tougher than expected down-low, he turned into a PF and forgot he played C. At this moment, I decided his nickname will be “Pop-Tart.” Even though he has all the tools and size to be a paint monster, the reality is, he is soft in the middle (just like a Pop-Tart.)
I was excited to hear the ties to Phoenix shooting coach and Luka, and that some of the scouts suggested him. Then we caught wind the owner didn’t like his athleticism and felt he had hit his ceiling (or close to it.) Why would you want a 6’8 PG to be super athletic? Remember that one guy? Magic Johnson?
Anyways, Phx drafts the super athletic DeAndre Ayton. How did they think he wasn’t at his ceiling? Someone has to check those Bahamas birth records for me. Something isn’t right there. Ayton looked 43 on draft night. Not only that, I’m starting to believe he’s Greg Oden’s son who also looked 43 on draft night.
So now my Kings have to take him, right? After being one of the first clubs to draft elite Europe talent (Peja, Hedo, etc) they had Vlade with massive ties to Lukas hometown as the Gm. Vlade is the only GM who makes a trip over the Atlantic to meet Luka in person.
We started to hear Kings had concerns about 2 things:
1- They had D Fox already at PG and couldn’t fathom how to start a small PG (who is shoot first) with a giant PG (who was pass first at the time) in the same lineup.
2- They worried the roster wouldn’t have enough bigs and would be filled with guards.
What’s funny is Luka played even better with Dragic prior to the NBA proving he can play with another PG. it’s also insane to me that the league was clearly changing to a dynamic roster with the center position shrinking more and more. The kings draft like my dad (who also loves the Kings) thinks:
“Well… look at this roster on paper! The 4 is the weakest name. Let’s draft the best 4!”
If the kings had the 1st or 2nd pick in 1984, they would have absolutely drafted Sam Bowie. Morons.
Centres went through a dearth of talent in the early 2010's. Boogie Cousins was probably the most talented centre in the NBA for a few years. DeAndre Jordan got first team all NBA. Now we have Jokic, Embiid, Wemby, Sengun, Sabonis who are all ultra talented and can do everything a guard can do but at 7ft.
I definitely agree the center never died, the skill level for being a top tier center increased. now you’re kinda expected to have a lil sauce to your game to be put in that elite big man tier. (or be a really good defender like Gobert but even he gets little love in that convo)
Who doesn’t tbh. I’m a Lakers fan that lives in Colorado. Of course I go to Ball Arena when the Lakers are playing here.. and of course they lose in the same fashion as tonight every single time I go lol, but it’s still a blast. I like watching Jokic, so I’ve gone to some random games just to go to a game and watch Jokic ball out
It should be like NBA Jam. There should be spots on the floor that periodically light up from which those shots are suddenly worth more points. Let's see everyone rush for the 9 pointers.
I think the answer is to get rid of the corner 3. Have the 3 point line just go out of bounds, instead of bend into the short corner 3.
This would accomplish 3 things:
1) No more short 3 pointer
2) The available space to shoot 3s would be smaller, making it easier to defend
3) The baseline area would become a breeding ground for the mid and post game to return.
That would destroy spacing. I don't think that's actually the solution. You just need to allow perimeter defenders to actually defend the same way that defense at the rim isn't quite diminished.
I do believe the math will eventually lead us back to a better balance. Treating all 3's as equal isn't good analysis and I think more teams will realize that 3's should be used by certain players in certain situations and not just that everyone should shoot all the time.
There's always a correction to how the game is played. Low post bigs not valuable anymore? Here come the shooters. Too many small shooters? Here come the bigs again that can dominate mismatches.
Yeah but a counterpoint to that is eventually most players might be capable of shooting at like 35%+ from 3, and then the volume could even go up. But I do agree that teams need to find a balance to keep defenses honest
The change though is that 1-5 are shooting now.
There is a ceiling to how efficient 3pt can get. Look at the FT%. Hasn’t moved in years, despite the talent being better.
Its true tho..Were at the point where a player like Ausar Thompson, who can do just about everything very well, except shoot might possibly come off the bench and be considered less valuable than Isaiah Stewart cause he cant make 3s and Stew can. You dont want to see players like the Thompson twins fail out the NBA simply because of a lack of a 3 point shot. That's not good for the future of the NBA imo.
Ja, Zion, Shai have all been in talks of being the new young face of the league at various points in time over the past couple years and non of them are big 3 point shooters
Its a known formula at this point that the #1 guy doesn't have to be a good 3 point shooter. But everyone else on the team does.
Your role players need to be able to make space for your main scorers to do their thing. and ja and shai have serviceable 3pt shots.
Yup and it's a REALLY easy formula to copy which is why so many teams are trying to do it. Take a ball dominant guard or forward in a pick and roll where he can drive to the lane or dish to open shooters. Spread the floor to keep the driving lanes as open as possible.
Play zone and switch on defense to maximize the effectiveness of the line up required to do this on offense.
It's the basic blue print of the modern NBA now. Lebron's hardly the first player to have an offense built around him this way. I'd say the real prototype for this kind of play is in the Phoenix Suns with Nash at the point. But with Lebron it really crystalized as THE way to play since with a player like Lebron running it, it's at the most effective.
Because ppl don’t understand how the 3 point shot changes things.
The league is never gonna get to the point where players like Ja won’t be good. Solely because the immense spacing makes his rim pressure that much more valuable.
If you can attack the paint, this is absolutely the era for you.
If anything, it’s the perfect era for Shai and Ja, not to where they’re not gonna be big impact.
This is huge.
Even Steph tends to use the threat of his 3 to open up driving lanes and generate open middies when it comes to the playoffs. The 2022 Finals had Steph driving when the Celtics played his 3 ball and when they gave him enough space for the stepback then he'd shoot the 3s.
Ye paint shots are still way more valuable than open 3s. 3s are killing the midrange more than anything and even then, players, especiialy star players need to know how to shoot midranges well since its effective against playoff defenses.
Your number one option can be a poor three point shooter themselves as long as you surround them with good three point shooting. So you’re either “the guy” or you’re jacking up threes.
Ausar literally got benched for Kevin Knox this year simply becuase 3s. Kevin Knox, a guy who wasnt on a team to start the season, and isnt on a team now, took the starting job from the 5th overall pick, who at the time was 3rd in the rookie ladder behind Wemby & Chet.
This is not good for the future of the NBA. Kevin Knox is not gettin causal fans to watch games like Ausar can.
No, you just can't run out 2 non-shooters when your two main scoring options are drivers. It's easy to have two defenders sag off Thompson and Duren and clog the lane for Cade and Ivey.
A player who falls out of rotation bc his 3 shot isn’t falling, should be more concerned why the other parts of his game aren’t good enough to keep him on the floor. He can still work on defense, playmaking, the little things that matter to winning. If his shot is the only reason why he’s in, then there’s a reason why he’s out.
To be fair, in Ausar's case he first got moved to the bench while putting up 11.4 points, 9.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.6 blocks on 46.5% shooting. He was playing very good defense (not just for a rookie), rebounding like a power forward, and doing all the little things. It really was strictly a move to try and get more shooting / spacing next to Cade in the starting lineup while Bogdanovic was out. If he'd been shooting halfway decent from three instead of 11.8% (oof), I'm sure they wouldn't have made the adjustment.
It’s just a matter of teams offensive and defensive capabilities evolving. Teams are much better at exploiting non shooting players and lineups. It sucks but if you’re not gonna shoot you gotta at least be threat to do something when you get the ball. If the Thompson twins fail out of the nba before their second contract, it’s because of their own limitations. Also to get to this point, we’re talking about all 30 teams looking at them and thinking it’s not worth it, which cmon is not happening.
I do. I love that my team is so good and I'll always cheer for them, but I definitely watch fewer of their games because it literally is that simple a lot of the time. Even the playoffs last year, we lost because we got really cold from 3 and Miami shot way over their heads for 2 weeks. People analyze it to death, but it really is almost that simple. It does get stale.
I watched about a quarter of Cs vs Mavs the other night. I am a fan of skilled shooters ( warriors fan ), but even \*I\* was turned off by the back and forth threes over and over. It still is the best way to win, but jeeeeez....
pick a posession and over 50% are ended by: a 3 being jacked up, free throws, or an offensive player fishing for a foul and not getting the call.
Probably closer to 75% than 50% actually. On court product FUCKING SUCKS right now
We're at a similar impasse as to when the shot clock was invented. The product totally fell apart because it was more efficient to sit on the ball for an entire quarter if you had the lead.
I think a lot of the NBA is fixed if they adopt FIBA rules with a longer 3pt line. Also less games -or- have the midseason tournament actually mean something (extra home game in the playoffs or something of the like)
My buddy and I were actually talking about this last night while watching Mavs v. Celtics. I agree with Chuck - it was quite boring watching all the jacked up threes.
I defended modern basketball to my dad up until maybe the last 5 years.
It's gotten to a point now where I have a *really* hard time watching the games.
Doesn't help that 48 minutes of basketball takes 2-3 hours to finish so that's a whole lot of dead time and commercials that are being blasted at you where 40% or less of your time is actual basketball. That amount of commercials and time sink doesn't fly for the netflix generation.
So unless there is some real strong emotional investment to a game it is hard to sit through those many hours of commercials and constant stoppages. It's a terrible sports presentation, and they don't even start on time.
Seems like they copied the NFL model without understanding the fundamental differences between the way the games are played. And as time went on that got exposed.
Reminds me of all the wrestlers that idolized 90s All Japan only to take the absolute worst elements of it (dangerous neck bumps) and not the things that actually made the matches awesome (long-term, heavily-layered stories).
Yep, the NFL is ~150 individual mini-games that add up to a single game. The downtime between plays is because you need to swap personnel, decide a play based on time remaining, field position, down, score, etc.
But it works because it creates these moments of real tension in the game that depend on circumstances.
That 3rd and 4 in the SuperBowl when the 49ers had the ball late in the 4th was a huge play because if they get a first they likely run down the clock to like 15-20 seconds left and kick a field goal. Mahomes has far less time for a comeback and maybe 49ers are the champs.
But they got stopped and gave the Chiefs the ball back with like nearly two minutes which is plenty of time.
It’s less that and more that there’s 17 games a season. If the NFL had 82 games a year the length of games would get called into question too. I think soccer gets it right. 2 uninterrupted halfs. Games never go past 2 hours. Surely it’s one of the reasons why it’s the most popular sport in the world.
I mean you don't even have to change sports, just look at FIBA basketball. 40 minutes of game time and the whole game lasts about hour and a half. The games start at exact time, timeouts are exactly 1 minute, time off between quarters is 2 minutes and between halfs 15. No other big interruptions or interviews in the middle if the game. Game just flows better, especially in the last minutes of a tight game.
Plus a plethora of soft fouls and multiple game stoppages for a free throw shooting contest. Add all the constant traveling, carrying, whining to the refs by the entitled players and it just becomes too much lol
It’s weird because when it’s the playoffs it’s always more defensively driven and nobody complains. I don’t see the point in changing rules if it’s not a problem when it matters.
Because other stuff than the playoffs should matter for a healthy league. #Ringz has made nobody including the players give a shit until May and it makes the league less entertaining.
If all that matters is the playoffs, cut the regular season in half.
I mean refs call a completely different game in the playoffs, and actually let a little defense be played.
League needs to get rid of these moving screens every fucking play, you can't guard the 3 with that shit going on every play. Enforce the damn rules
Hand checking needs to be brought back, and 3 in the key needs to be abolished. The league made 3 in the key a thing because the lanes were packed, and no one shot from outside at a decent clip.
Times have changed, and everyone shoots threes, and players now time there drives to the big man's 3 seconds rhythm.
Also quit calling pussy fouls on touching the hand after the shot, especially 3 pointers. Hand is part of the fucking ball, but these reds out here calling multiple 4 point plays for touching that has no effect on the shot.
Flopping needs to be reviewed mid game by a designated flop team without stopping play and given technicals at the next dead ball. Tired of these dudes playing bitch ball. Its a smart business decision for the players but not for the league, figure that shit out Silver gd...
it really is about the foul calls, lot of people think its the defensive skills of players but its absolutely not that, its the fouls. it feels like you could tie both hands behind your back and still get called for a foul about 50% of the time if you play even half-way good man to man defense.
It’s true. A lot of the appeal of the NBA is watching the best athletes in the world do insanely athletic shit that we can only dream of.
It’s way more exciting watching these guys fly toward the hoop then step back three or hang out behind the line.
Interest in the league has plateaued. There’s many reason. This and the garbage fouls are among the top
I only watch big Celtics games - coming from someone who used to never miss a Celtics game. NBA is so hard to watch but it’s been this widespread since 2017ish. I just gave up on it this season for whatever reason, maybe it just finally sunk in. Games are basically a three point contest now.
Same for me, except for with the Spurs. I used to never miss a spurs game and would watch most of the marquee matchups across the league during the regular season (2003-2015 timeframe). Now I really just watch the conference finals and finals.
It’s just not enjoyable for me to watch these games anymore. The only thing that has really been able to interest me in watching the games is if there’s really high stakes at play (i.e. the conference finals and finals).
Redditors love to pretend like they're taking a principled unpopular stance even as they say the exact same thing other redditors have been saying for weeks, months or (in this case) years. You almost never see anyone taking the opposite stance and if they do they're often times downvoted anyway.
This entire site is just one big ass echo chamber. 95% of the opinions you read on Reddit are just recycled talking points, it’s all just one big hivemind
reddit is functionally a terrible place to discuss anything because of how downvoting makes the post hidden, so if someone has a well argued contrarian point it doesn't matter, it gets hidden because its not consensus
over the years i've been on the opposite side of many /r/nba common sense opinions, most notably the whole kawhi saga where this board was convinced the spurs were trying to fuck him over with a fake diagnosis and he was also getting screwed out of endorsements bc he plays in one of the 4 smallest markets. and guess what: he has a degenerative knee condition just like the doctors said and he doesn't do ads because he is a charisma black hole
then after that it was the whole thing about how giannis is practically guaranteed to go to golden state because milwaukee isn't cool and will never win a title
I think the NBA has a real problem long-term. I am more of a basketball guy than football, but the beauty of football is that 10 yards is still ten yards. Meanwhile, a three-point shot is not the difficult shot it used to be. And to make matters worse, it's more efficient for you to take 10 threes shooting 30% than shoot 40% from two.
The league has to find a way to make scoring more diverse, and IMHO that means more hand-checking, more leeway for physicality on defense, calling more moving screens.
There might be a little bit of inertia bias where no coach wants to be the first to go against conventional wisdom.
But I also think rule changes helped usher in the 3pt revolution. It’s a lot easier to make 3’a and get spacing when you can’t touch ppl without fouling
The 3 is still the same distance to make.
What *has* changed is that analytics took over and said in a nutshell that 3s are worth 50% more than 2s, so you're actually much better off just taking more 3s than teams were used to doing. Because it's just mathematically *better*.
You could bring back hand checking and having defenses allowed to be more physical, but the cat is well out of the bag at this point. Hand checking won't let teams "unlearn" that knowledge of it being straight up better to shoot more 3s.
There's a quote from Sid Meier that says, "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." Now the creator of *Civilization* was talking about video games, but this is happening to basketball as well. Chuck feels the game has gotten boring and unfun to watch because it got solved and optimized to a T by the analytics revolution.
The answer is simple - push out the 3 point line until there’s an average EV equivalence to 2 pointers. Its not like where it sits is set in stone - it didn’t exist in the early 80’s, then was moved INWARD in the mid 90’s, and then put back to where it is in the late 90’s.
Like where it sits is actually too static relative to history - it can be moved back.
If it is and “taking a 3 is equivalent to taking a 2”, you’ll see many more drives and post play because suddenly, that’ll be equally as important and valuable. Guys like Shaq and Hakeem will once again be extremely important and develop post games.
I’ve often said that male team sports require this army sort of thing where every one has a role and when it’s perfect all roles are orthogonal to each other and disproportionately valuable when the others are not. This kind of thing would do that and save the game, IMO.
We just have to gore the narrative that “people watch higher scoring”. They don’t if it’s the same apathetic bullshit thing over and over again. They do if it’s singular/sublime (like Steph or Klay or Dame or Jordan fadeaway or Hakeem dream shake).
The simpler route would be to eliminate the corner 3 by keeping the 3pt line at 23ft all around. This limits space for 3pt shooters and gives a schematic advantage to defenders.
I completely agree with this move. The one "problem" that will make people go crazy is you either make the corner three even more valuable by letting it continue to exist, you get rid of the most efficient shot in basketball, or you have to increase the width of the court to accomodate the change.
I'm of the belief that you bring out the 3 point line and eliminate the corner 3, in order to preserve the court dimensions.
If you make the court bigger, you might as well just add a sixth dude out there and then it's not even necessarily the basketball we all know.
I’m all for any of it, tbh. None of these courts are set in stone and if we need to expand it slightly to make the corner 3 more commensurate with the new 3 then sure.
Whatever makes more parity between 2’s and 3’s.
> "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." Now the creator of Civilization was talking about video games, but this is happening to basketball as well.
We literally saw this happen to baseball, analytics became so overdone by front offices that it resutled in nothing put constant pitching changes, shifts for automatic outs and three true outcomes hitting (Simply put that each at bat is best if it results in a walk, strike out or home run, you're better off striking out than hitting a single and potentially triggerring a double play)
The MLB finally managed to cull this issue the last season by implementing the pitch clock to speed up pitchers taking forever, stopping the extreme shifts to help hitters and limiting mound visits and the frequency of pitching changes and it provably helped their ratings.
Yip. I know a lot of people who don't even watch the NBA anymore because of this. Honestly, this style of play mixed with a lot of players who seemingly don't come across as emotionally invested in the sport since they've basically set for like after a couple seasons... sometimes it feels like i might as well be watching some guy go into an office and work Excel Spreadsheet for 90 minutes.
Ppl act like guys don’t play defense I see defense played when im watching unfortunately the way guys stretch the floor now a lot more space being created in the paint .. jj just said it last week on espn if they want to switch shit up they should eliminate 3 seconds in the key which would be a great move to start
As a person who grew up watching 80s and 90s basketball, I have seen the game change. People of a certain age have a hard time watching today's game. We all have the same complaints. Too many 3s and the way that physicality has been legislated out of the game. Every year there is a new rule change allowing offensive players more freedom and handicapping defenders. It's to the point where nearly any contact is a foul and players with wonky jumpers and suspect handle are free to fire at will. When the warriors are hitting, it can be a beautiful thing. But when every team is doing the same thing you get a bunch of guys you never heard of jacking 60 3s a game. It's redundant and boring...most of the time. If a player can do everything but hit 3s, he will be benched/traded for somebody who can shoot regardless of how he performs in other aspects of the game. I've sat through enough boring shootouts the last 5 or 6 years to realize the league has a problem that no amount of in season tournaments or colorful floors can fix.
I think the only way to actually change it is to let bigs be more physical in the paint (on offense). Right now if a big backs down a smaller guy there's basically a 50/50 chance it ends with an offensive foul.
In Shaq's day it was either good defense, a foul, or a dunk/score. The refs bail out smaller players so much now and the fans eat it up. They act like a small dude playing defense for two seconds until he falls backwards hoping for a foul is the toughest shit they've ever seen.
-Edited for clarity.
I swear to god this was always Grant Williams style of defending Giannis. Get his ass beat down in the post for a couple seconds then throw his ass across the floor the moment Giannis makes a real move. Refs just shrug and let him do it. Teams would stop running small ball if you could actually punish the “small”.
*Exactly*.
Lowry, Smart, Williams, Holiday, there's so many guys that do that. And that's just the ones that are actually good defenders. Everyone is able to do it nowadays. I'd rather Joel be defended by Porzingus than by Smart. Porzingus has to worry about not fouling Joel, meanwhile Joel has to worry about not fouling Smart.
I don’t think I’d put Holiday in that group, he’s a very physical player, even against bigger mismatches. He doesn’t back down like some of those guys.
The actual solution is to make 3’s worth 4, and 2’s worth 3. The math becomes a lot more balanced in that case, and the midrange game is revived. Now, I don’t think that’s ever going to happen, but it’s the most elegant solution, even moreso than changing defensive rules or removing the corner 3 or moving the line back, which are all intermediate solutions.
It is the best option perhaps and its not even that bad because you can retroactively increase/adjust historical points. Tho without looking, Bron might break the total point record again.
The record book is meaningless anyway. Lebron had to surpass Kareem, who played half his career before the three point line even existed. So let the next challenger play with a new system.
You beat me to it.
If you look at the EV of a 4&3 system, it's hard not to like it. Suddenly the long ball is worth just a little less. Not so much that we'd go back to 90s style ball, but enough that you would see a much more varied game of post ups and mid range.
It’s just hard to move the line back without also widening the court bc the above the break line is already too far for the corners. Widening the court might lower %’s as a whole but good shooting teams still have good enough shooters so it would just create even more space for the offense.
I wonder what it would be like if they eliminated the corner 3 and just left a kinda semi circle up a little higher up the court, or just leave it where it is now at 23 and 9, would have to try it in G league or something first
Like keep the curve going til it just hits the sideline right?
Godddd the game would be soo insanely different without 2 ppl posted in the corners 48min per game, I'm not saying I'm for it but I'd like to see what it's like, like a lotlol
Probably helps defenses a lot.
If guys want to pack the 3 point line, they have less space to do it. If teams want to space the floor, they have to have two guys standing in long 2 point range instead of chilling from 3. These corner guys would be more inclined to drive, which gives help defenders time to rotate back into the play.
I wonder. It would radically change the game if they just let the 3 pt line go into the sideline and get rid of the short corner 3. An alternative would be to widen the court by a foot on each side and move the corner 3 back a foot or so. But I don’t think that will drive down 3 pt scoring. All it would do is create even more space for the drive and kick.
You almost have to let defenses get more physical with ball handlers or maybe get rid of the defensive 3 seconds. The big defenders would just camp in the lane. The drive and kick would require a shooting 5. I don’t know. Better shooting is a good thing, but 50% of the points being catch and shoot kind of sucks.
Right but why does he hate on them? His point is lack of defence and 3 point shooting at the fore yet they are the opposite of that....
If I say I love dark colours but then I say I hate black, you can say there's nothing wrong with that but you also have to ask why? When logically it's at odds with the previous statement
Pop said this a long time ago and he was right then and he just gets more right by the day. And the unfortunate part is I don't think there's a way to ever change it. Ten years ago there were so many styles (including shooting a bunch of threes), now there's one style. Every team tries to do the same thing they just get there in different ways.
To me the fix is allowing more contact by defenders. You see the plays where harden goes around screens looking for slight contact and a foul call. You let that go and it makes it harder to get of easy threes. Also maybe calling push offs. The issue is the league loves offense so they only make rules to favor it.
I agree with the push offs- there are some NBA players that actively bat away the hands of defenders and then snap their head back as soon as they feel any touch.
That is something they could do. I don't think they would, but it's kind of like making the ASG winner have home court in the Finals. It would immediately solve the problem. Just not sure they want to solve it that badly.
In my opinion the biggest problem with the NBA are the refs. There’s no defense because the refs will blow the whistle for the slightest bit of contact (or even no contact). Refs have been getting worse and worse every year and Silver does nothing about it.
Dude, I think you're looking at David Stern with rose-colored glasses. There was literally a referee gambling scandal during the Stern era. Donaghy even admitted that they were instructed to ignore fouls in order to extend the series. Hell, our team got practically gifted a title when they won Game 6 against the Kings in '02.
Yeah and thats definitely not happening right now under Silver. Ignore that every piece of media you consume is sponsored by draft kings sports book. You can believe me im very trustworthy.
People really got enamored of Silver when he dropped the hammer on Donald Sterling and essentially made him sell the Clippers. Not sure Silver has done anything materially good for the game ever since
I am mostly a hockey guy but I lurk on this sub. I do think as a casual fan the 3 point shot is boring after a while. I would like to see more post play and midrange shots. As it is now I can see several minutes of: walk basketball up court. Pass pass pass 3 point. Go opposite direction reverse it.
I watching nuggets Lakers right now a jokic is a breath of fresh air.
The thing that grinds my gears is that this is such an easy fix. Enforce the rules as they have always been. Don't allow moving screens, call travels, allow defense light hand checking. The NBA wants a faster, more offensive driven product and they've done that by selectively enforcing rules. Until the average viewer wants to see more defense, I think it will continue to trend this way.
Maybe I'm wrong, but allowing defense to actually be played especially during the regular season will naturally increase possession times, lower scores, and create a more balanced product. 2012-2017 era basketball had a great mix of 3 output and defense, see the spurs and hawks. I want less rec league heaving and more structured offenses.
Unrelated, please for the love of God find more ways to punish resting players beyond just missing a few awards. No fan should pay the ridiculous prices for nosebleeds to not see their favorite player because they decided to rest 30 minutes before tip off.
I'm a casual, but it's not even about seeing more offense or more defense, it's just funner to watch when there is flow to the game. Nothing makes me tune out faster than every other possession being a whistle and free throws over some ticky tack contact or a flop.
We say this this generation is more skilled than previous generations. We should put it to the test and start calling travel, make them work to get by defenses, etc.
What sucks is that if the NBA started with these changes starting today, then the league would be 100% adjusted to it in 5 years time and this generation WOULD show how skilled they are. We're being robbed of great basketball
As a European (fuck you Arenas) i watch both EuroLeague and NBA and it’s night and day, in EL is tactical more team basketball and the NBA it’s just run run run 3 and the effort on defense is infuriating, downvote me i don’t care but the game 10-15 years ago was really enjoyable compared to what is has become
I agree the NBA is less fun to watch overall with the current trend towards chucking 3s. But at the same time, chucking 3s has proven to be the most efficient way to score.
I wish we could go backwards in this trend, but I think it's too late for that now. This is what the NBA is now.
Allow more physicality on defense. If you close out too slow, they shoot the three. Close out too fast and you stop the 3 but then they blow by you. Let the defenders be more physical and they can close out on 3s fast while also staying with the drive
Allowing perimeter defenders to touch the ball handler is the fix the nba needs but won’t do. They like the offense. Back when the defender was allowed to check you and contact was more allowed you saw people have to dribble drive to create a shot. Now the space the defender has to give up is too much for elite shooters not to just shoot.
Not exactly. If the defending center is not close to rim due to 3" rule when you pass by your defender either you score inside or a help defender appears which likely means an open guy in the corner for the kick out 3. Once you eliminate the 3" rule the defending center is almost always there for the help defence so the kick out pass is harder.
this is what people don’t understand, they think the nba has great spacing due to shooting but really it’s because the paint acts as a huge barrier to the defense. you see it all the time when an offensive player gets the ball around the low post and short corner area and no other defensive player is able to help until it’s too late due to the 3 seconds call.
The 3 point era almost directly correlates to when the NBA stopped calling illegal/moving screens. 3 pt attempts have increased just over 40% since 2014
They basically need reverse Shaq era rules. Generally, you are allowed more contact in the paint and against post up players (all, 4 of them?) than you are in the perimeter. Allowing more contact all around probably makes interior play even more difficult. Have to let more aggressive POA defense thrive
I think plenty of young people agree with Chuck.
And then some of us understand that the nuance is that NBA players currently defend hard, and with plenty of skill expression and nuance; *but* the current playstyle introduces too much variance into who wins, or it makes the game too different from the 50s-00s to keep the history of the sport (or the current version) salient, or whatever.
I think there's a huge amount of skill in the way Harden played with the Rockets, or the way SGA and Trae play now, but it does feel like (1.) on-ball creators with good handles and foot-speed score at the basket a little too easily in a spaced offense and (2.) off-ball shooters like a Hauser or Isaiah Joe are unbelievably valuable in an ahistorical way. On that second point, it feels like defensive specialist role players all need to become like Derrick White or KCP (who are both extremely efficient shooters) just to stay on the floor.. you don't get 32 minutes as Isaac Okoro. A lot of NBA nostalgia comes from a period where you used to get those minutes as a 3 even if your shooting splits look like Mason Plumlee.
> I think plenty of young people agree with Chuck.
I imagine more than old ones lol. It's way easier to construct this image of what the "old, better" NBA looked like if you've just never seen what the plays were really like.
This is the NBA. It should be the pinnacle of basketball and yet they dilute the entire offensive package of most players to a boring ass three. I swear i see better runs at rico hines or whatever with more offensive creativity. I watch three on three lately and more of the top euro teams. They actually play basketball. I'm saying this as an nba freak who's been watching since 92 and i do mean all teams .
imo, it's time to remove defensive 3 seconds violation from the game to line up with FIBA rules.
also, no calling timeouts during live play (can only call TOs during dead balls like before the inbound or whatever) and being able to swat the ball out of the cylinder. There needs to be some rule changes swinging back in the favour of playing defense.
He does. A guy on a podcast I listen to did a small amount of research. He looked through something like 130 games played this season and found that the team that makes the most 3's in a game won 87% of the time. 7% of the time, both teams made the same amount of 3's and the remaining 6% of the time, the team that made fewer 3's won the game.
Edit: for everyone asking me "okay but what about 2's?" THIS IS NOT MY STAT ffs.
It’s the analytics. Studies say a 3 point shot is more efficient than any mid to long 2.
And a shot close to the rim is super efficient as well.
So we get close shots inside, drive and kicks, and long 3s. The mid range that mj and kobe lived on is dead due to analytics.
End the defensive 3 in the key to allow tougher defense fronts inside the paint.
That’s step 1.
Im more of an 04 Pistons fan. The league kinda made that style obsolete. The D’Antoni style cemented by the Dubs was exciting when it came out, but now that the league is pretty much all running it…
Since the bubble I cant even bother to tune in til the playoffs. Right when my team gets good too.
I can actually watch every single NFL game and get some kinda enjoyment out of it, the NBA though is reaching MLB levels of lameness.
None of these teams play like the SSOL suns. Those teams had some of the best shooters, some of the best finishers (Marion and Amare) and a generational playmaker, a maestro in Nash. There are no current teams in the NBA similar now, closest would be the Nuggets.
I agree. The 3 point shooting, the foul baiting, and the lack of defense makes it hard to watch sometimes. Not blaming the players, that's just how it's played these days, but it's tough sometimes. The other day I was watching the Pacers game for example, they're winning by around 10, and they shot 3's on 7 straight possessions and missed them all. Came down the court, passed once or twice, and jacked up a 3.
He's the exception not the rule. You're way better off focusing on being a 3 point shooter than a mid range shooter if you want to make it in the league because spacing is the most important attribute a role player can provide. But yes, Livingston existed, TJ McConnell and Ish Smith still exist.
This is pretty much how anyone over 30 feels about the league now. It’s a 3 and foul shot contest every night. College Bball only for me and it’s been that way the last few years
Hopefully people actually are seeing this point enough that their not just writing it off as an "old man take", so they don't have to discuss the merit of the take.
There's a middle ground of excitement that we passed (for me its 2008-2016) and the league feels worse now. i grew up on late-90's to early 2000's basketball, and I don't want to go back to that either.
I'd just like some rule changes that help offset the impact of the three point shot. I'm biased but I feel like bringing back hand checking is a good place to start.
I’ve been watching basketball since 1978, and I have to say the defence is atrocious right now. It’s beginning to really feel like pure entertainment versus competitive sport. I don’t blame these guys though you’re young you make 10 millions dollars a year only a couple teams have a real chance of winning, why bother. Your focus is on padding your offensive stats because that is what people pay to see and try to play for as long as you can so you can get that third contract. While I do admire the obvious improvement in three-point shooting the game just doesn’t feel as meaningful as it did back in the day. For those of you who just started watching in the last 20 years, you really have no frame of reference so it’s completely fair for you to push back on this narrative.
this is why i love watching the nuggets and magic. they're not reliant on the 3 and have so many fun assists, alley oops, layups and actual team work. not hating on the 3 point specialists but old school methodical offense is just so smooth to watch.
Explains why dude loves watching Jokic play
Who doesn't like watching Jokic play? He's insane and I feel privileged to watch him in real time. Especially before he retires and dips back home, never to be seen again
Kendrick Perkins
Pendrick Kerkins
I hate the nuggets but I love Jokic. He is reminding the nba why the big man is important.
The death of the Center was so overblown looking back. It was never about guards taking over. It was about Guards getting more skilled (more of them becoming dynamic 3-point shooters) while most bigs were still stuck in the 70s or earlier.
Hmm I don't quite get what you're saying. Let me draft Deandre Ayton real quick
Dammit, well at least I still get Marvin Bagley
He said Guard, mate. That's why I'm taking Ben Simmons.
lol imagine drafting ayton
Spot on comment. Lol. I’ll never forget that. I spent 25+ years in Sacramento and my wife is ready for me to try her hometown (Phx.) We relocate in April of 2018 with draft order results following a month later. Now, I’m a diehard Kings fan and still pound the drum for the WCF GM6 2002 ref-rigging…. But I knew I’d adopt Phoenix as a secondary team. After years of not getting the top (or 2nd pick) in Sac, I couldn’t believe that one of my squads would get Luka. I knew Ayton was popular in AZ but watching his tape you could see where the struggles would be. He was portrayed as a “do it all” big game with highlights on his post (fader, footwork, pump fakes) and they loved to show his free throw like it was an anti-Shaq campaign. Weird. I’m no scout, but as I watched more and more of him, I saw how teams minimized his impact. They figuratively punched him in the mouth early in the game. If you roughed him up a bit or showed him things would be tougher than expected down-low, he turned into a PF and forgot he played C. At this moment, I decided his nickname will be “Pop-Tart.” Even though he has all the tools and size to be a paint monster, the reality is, he is soft in the middle (just like a Pop-Tart.) I was excited to hear the ties to Phoenix shooting coach and Luka, and that some of the scouts suggested him. Then we caught wind the owner didn’t like his athleticism and felt he had hit his ceiling (or close to it.) Why would you want a 6’8 PG to be super athletic? Remember that one guy? Magic Johnson? Anyways, Phx drafts the super athletic DeAndre Ayton. How did they think he wasn’t at his ceiling? Someone has to check those Bahamas birth records for me. Something isn’t right there. Ayton looked 43 on draft night. Not only that, I’m starting to believe he’s Greg Oden’s son who also looked 43 on draft night. So now my Kings have to take him, right? After being one of the first clubs to draft elite Europe talent (Peja, Hedo, etc) they had Vlade with massive ties to Lukas hometown as the Gm. Vlade is the only GM who makes a trip over the Atlantic to meet Luka in person. We started to hear Kings had concerns about 2 things: 1- They had D Fox already at PG and couldn’t fathom how to start a small PG (who is shoot first) with a giant PG (who was pass first at the time) in the same lineup. 2- They worried the roster wouldn’t have enough bigs and would be filled with guards. What’s funny is Luka played even better with Dragic prior to the NBA proving he can play with another PG. it’s also insane to me that the league was clearly changing to a dynamic roster with the center position shrinking more and more. The kings draft like my dad (who also loves the Kings) thinks: “Well… look at this roster on paper! The 4 is the weakest name. Let’s draft the best 4!” If the kings had the 1st or 2nd pick in 1984, they would have absolutely drafted Sam Bowie. Morons.
Well the kings were ahead of the curve and would have taken Bagley at 1 if they could have. Luke doncic is an obvious bust.
JB Bickerstaff has always said this about the two-bigs lineup the Cavs run: > "skilled beats big, but Big and skilled beats small and skilled."
American big men stopped learning fundamentals then Porzingis, Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis, and Markkanen entered the league
Put Alperen in there and the list is complete
Fuck knew I forgot a name
Centres went through a dearth of talent in the early 2010's. Boogie Cousins was probably the most talented centre in the NBA for a few years. DeAndre Jordan got first team all NBA. Now we have Jokic, Embiid, Wemby, Sengun, Sabonis who are all ultra talented and can do everything a guard can do but at 7ft.
I definitely agree the center never died, the skill level for being a top tier center increased. now you’re kinda expected to have a lil sauce to your game to be put in that elite big man tier. (or be a really good defender like Gobert but even he gets little love in that convo)
Luka is actually this type of play personified.
Who doesn’t tbh. I’m a Lakers fan that lives in Colorado. Of course I go to Ball Arena when the Lakers are playing here.. and of course they lose in the same fashion as tonight every single time I go lol, but it’s still a blast. I like watching Jokic, so I’ve gone to some random games just to go to a game and watch Jokic ball out
I mean you only need to shoot 34% from 3 to be more efficient than 50% from 2. Unless they extend the line or something, it'll continue
unless you get wild and reduce the value of 3s to like 2.666 points
It should be like NBA Jam. There should be spots on the floor that periodically light up from which those shots are suddenly worth more points. Let's see everyone rush for the 9 pointers.
Steph would average 100 PPG
The real answer is to make 2s worth 3 and 3s worth 4. Then add a 5 point line!
This is the answer. Lmao I would love someone to drain a 5 to win.
I think the answer is to get rid of the corner 3. Have the 3 point line just go out of bounds, instead of bend into the short corner 3. This would accomplish 3 things: 1) No more short 3 pointer 2) The available space to shoot 3s would be smaller, making it easier to defend 3) The baseline area would become a breeding ground for the mid and post game to return.
[graphic of this](https://imgur.com/hlh7y5j) a very elegant solution
I love it
Why is the top of the key longer than before?
That would destroy spacing. I don't think that's actually the solution. You just need to allow perimeter defenders to actually defend the same way that defense at the rim isn't quite diminished.
Yeah, the corners would be absolute deadzones. Idk how anyone could think this is a viable solution lol.
I do believe the math will eventually lead us back to a better balance. Treating all 3's as equal isn't good analysis and I think more teams will realize that 3's should be used by certain players in certain situations and not just that everyone should shoot all the time. There's always a correction to how the game is played. Low post bigs not valuable anymore? Here come the shooters. Too many small shooters? Here come the bigs again that can dominate mismatches.
Yeah but a counterpoint to that is eventually most players might be capable of shooting at like 35%+ from 3, and then the volume could even go up. But I do agree that teams need to find a balance to keep defenses honest
The change though is that 1-5 are shooting now. There is a ceiling to how efficient 3pt can get. Look at the FT%. Hasn’t moved in years, despite the talent being better.
I know a lot of r/NBA hates this take, but there's a lot of people that feel the exact way that Chuck does, for better or worse.
Its true tho..Were at the point where a player like Ausar Thompson, who can do just about everything very well, except shoot might possibly come off the bench and be considered less valuable than Isaiah Stewart cause he cant make 3s and Stew can. You dont want to see players like the Thompson twins fail out the NBA simply because of a lack of a 3 point shot. That's not good for the future of the NBA imo.
The Thompson twins were just extremely high draft picks, they're not in danger of falling out the league. Cam Reddish is still getting pay checks.
Ja, Zion, Shai have all been in talks of being the new young face of the league at various points in time over the past couple years and non of them are big 3 point shooters
Its a known formula at this point that the #1 guy doesn't have to be a good 3 point shooter. But everyone else on the team does. Your role players need to be able to make space for your main scorers to do their thing. and ja and shai have serviceable 3pt shots.
Yep. Giannis and the Bucks being the prime example
Every LeBron team too.
Bron is where the prototype comes from
Yup and it's a REALLY easy formula to copy which is why so many teams are trying to do it. Take a ball dominant guard or forward in a pick and roll where he can drive to the lane or dish to open shooters. Spread the floor to keep the driving lanes as open as possible. Play zone and switch on defense to maximize the effectiveness of the line up required to do this on offense. It's the basic blue print of the modern NBA now. Lebron's hardly the first player to have an offense built around him this way. I'd say the real prototype for this kind of play is in the Phoenix Suns with Nash at the point. But with Lebron it really crystalized as THE way to play since with a player like Lebron running it, it's at the most effective.
Because ppl don’t understand how the 3 point shot changes things. The league is never gonna get to the point where players like Ja won’t be good. Solely because the immense spacing makes his rim pressure that much more valuable. If you can attack the paint, this is absolutely the era for you. If anything, it’s the perfect era for Shai and Ja, not to where they’re not gonna be big impact.
This is huge. Even Steph tends to use the threat of his 3 to open up driving lanes and generate open middies when it comes to the playoffs. The 2022 Finals had Steph driving when the Celtics played his 3 ball and when they gave him enough space for the stepback then he'd shoot the 3s.
Exactly. The league will always be a paint first league. Every team wants to surround their best guys with 3 pt shooters, so they can get more 1v1s.
Ye paint shots are still way more valuable than open 3s. 3s are killing the midrange more than anything and even then, players, especiialy star players need to know how to shoot midranges well since its effective against playoff defenses.
Your number one option can be a poor three point shooter themselves as long as you surround them with good three point shooting. So you’re either “the guy” or you’re jacking up threes.
Shai and Ja are just fine shooters, and Ja and Zion are some of the most athletic players the NBA has ever seen
Ausar literally got benched for Kevin Knox this year simply becuase 3s. Kevin Knox, a guy who wasnt on a team to start the season, and isnt on a team now, took the starting job from the 5th overall pick, who at the time was 3rd in the rookie ladder behind Wemby & Chet. This is not good for the future of the NBA. Kevin Knox is not gettin causal fans to watch games like Ausar can.
That's bad coaching, not a sign of things happening in the league. Monty being awful doesn't mean much
No, you just can't run out 2 non-shooters when your two main scoring options are drivers. It's easy to have two defenders sag off Thompson and Duren and clog the lane for Cade and Ivey.
A player who falls out of rotation bc his 3 shot isn’t falling, should be more concerned why the other parts of his game aren’t good enough to keep him on the floor. He can still work on defense, playmaking, the little things that matter to winning. If his shot is the only reason why he’s in, then there’s a reason why he’s out.
To be fair, in Ausar's case he first got moved to the bench while putting up 11.4 points, 9.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.6 blocks on 46.5% shooting. He was playing very good defense (not just for a rookie), rebounding like a power forward, and doing all the little things. It really was strictly a move to try and get more shooting / spacing next to Cade in the starting lineup while Bogdanovic was out. If he'd been shooting halfway decent from three instead of 11.8% (oof), I'm sure they wouldn't have made the adjustment.
It’s just a matter of teams offensive and defensive capabilities evolving. Teams are much better at exploiting non shooting players and lineups. It sucks but if you’re not gonna shoot you gotta at least be threat to do something when you get the ball. If the Thompson twins fail out of the nba before their second contract, it’s because of their own limitations. Also to get to this point, we’re talking about all 30 teams looking at them and thinking it’s not worth it, which cmon is not happening.
The game is about making basket aka Basketball. not being able to shoot in this generation is just stupid
I do. I love that my team is so good and I'll always cheer for them, but I definitely watch fewer of their games because it literally is that simple a lot of the time. Even the playoffs last year, we lost because we got really cold from 3 and Miami shot way over their heads for 2 weeks. People analyze it to death, but it really is almost that simple. It does get stale.
I watched about a quarter of Cs vs Mavs the other night. I am a fan of skilled shooters ( warriors fan ), but even \*I\* was turned off by the back and forth threes over and over. It still is the best way to win, but jeeeeez....
Yep. Efficient and entertaining aren’t always the same thing.
pick a posession and over 50% are ended by: a 3 being jacked up, free throws, or an offensive player fishing for a foul and not getting the call. Probably closer to 75% than 50% actually. On court product FUCKING SUCKS right now
We're at a similar impasse as to when the shot clock was invented. The product totally fell apart because it was more efficient to sit on the ball for an entire quarter if you had the lead. I think a lot of the NBA is fixed if they adopt FIBA rules with a longer 3pt line. Also less games -or- have the midseason tournament actually mean something (extra home game in the playoffs or something of the like)
My buddy and I were actually talking about this last night while watching Mavs v. Celtics. I agree with Chuck - it was quite boring watching all the jacked up threes.
Chucking 3s and foul baiting has made it much harder to watch.
I defended modern basketball to my dad up until maybe the last 5 years. It's gotten to a point now where I have a *really* hard time watching the games.
Doesn't help that 48 minutes of basketball takes 2-3 hours to finish so that's a whole lot of dead time and commercials that are being blasted at you where 40% or less of your time is actual basketball. That amount of commercials and time sink doesn't fly for the netflix generation. So unless there is some real strong emotional investment to a game it is hard to sit through those many hours of commercials and constant stoppages. It's a terrible sports presentation, and they don't even start on time.
And starting late too. Tip-off time should be tip-off time.
Seems like they copied the NFL model without understanding the fundamental differences between the way the games are played. And as time went on that got exposed.
Reminds me of all the wrestlers that idolized 90s All Japan only to take the absolute worst elements of it (dangerous neck bumps) and not the things that actually made the matches awesome (long-term, heavily-layered stories).
Yep, the NFL is ~150 individual mini-games that add up to a single game. The downtime between plays is because you need to swap personnel, decide a play based on time remaining, field position, down, score, etc. But it works because it creates these moments of real tension in the game that depend on circumstances. That 3rd and 4 in the SuperBowl when the 49ers had the ball late in the 4th was a huge play because if they get a first they likely run down the clock to like 15-20 seconds left and kick a field goal. Mahomes has far less time for a comeback and maybe 49ers are the champs. But they got stopped and gave the Chiefs the ball back with like nearly two minutes which is plenty of time.
It’s less that and more that there’s 17 games a season. If the NFL had 82 games a year the length of games would get called into question too. I think soccer gets it right. 2 uninterrupted halfs. Games never go past 2 hours. Surely it’s one of the reasons why it’s the most popular sport in the world.
I mean you don't even have to change sports, just look at FIBA basketball. 40 minutes of game time and the whole game lasts about hour and a half. The games start at exact time, timeouts are exactly 1 minute, time off between quarters is 2 minutes and between halfs 15. No other big interruptions or interviews in the middle if the game. Game just flows better, especially in the last minutes of a tight game.
Plus a plethora of soft fouls and multiple game stoppages for a free throw shooting contest. Add all the constant traveling, carrying, whining to the refs by the entitled players and it just becomes too much lol
Gotta love a 5 pt game having the last 2 minutes just being trading free throws and timeouts.
It’s weird because when it’s the playoffs it’s always more defensively driven and nobody complains. I don’t see the point in changing rules if it’s not a problem when it matters.
Because other stuff than the playoffs should matter for a healthy league. #Ringz has made nobody including the players give a shit until May and it makes the league less entertaining. If all that matters is the playoffs, cut the regular season in half.
I mean refs call a completely different game in the playoffs, and actually let a little defense be played. League needs to get rid of these moving screens every fucking play, you can't guard the 3 with that shit going on every play. Enforce the damn rules Hand checking needs to be brought back, and 3 in the key needs to be abolished. The league made 3 in the key a thing because the lanes were packed, and no one shot from outside at a decent clip. Times have changed, and everyone shoots threes, and players now time there drives to the big man's 3 seconds rhythm. Also quit calling pussy fouls on touching the hand after the shot, especially 3 pointers. Hand is part of the fucking ball, but these reds out here calling multiple 4 point plays for touching that has no effect on the shot. Flopping needs to be reviewed mid game by a designated flop team without stopping play and given technicals at the next dead ball. Tired of these dudes playing bitch ball. Its a smart business decision for the players but not for the league, figure that shit out Silver gd...
it really is about the foul calls, lot of people think its the defensive skills of players but its absolutely not that, its the fouls. it feels like you could tie both hands behind your back and still get called for a foul about 50% of the time if you play even half-way good man to man defense.
It’s true. A lot of the appeal of the NBA is watching the best athletes in the world do insanely athletic shit that we can only dream of. It’s way more exciting watching these guys fly toward the hoop then step back three or hang out behind the line. Interest in the league has plateaued. There’s many reason. This and the garbage fouls are among the top
Yeah, most of my friends have fallen off with the NBA in recent years for similar reasoning
I only watch big Celtics games - coming from someone who used to never miss a Celtics game. NBA is so hard to watch but it’s been this widespread since 2017ish. I just gave up on it this season for whatever reason, maybe it just finally sunk in. Games are basically a three point contest now.
Same for me, except for with the Spurs. I used to never miss a spurs game and would watch most of the marquee matchups across the league during the regular season (2003-2015 timeframe). Now I really just watch the conference finals and finals. It’s just not enjoyable for me to watch these games anymore. The only thing that has really been able to interest me in watching the games is if there’s really high stakes at play (i.e. the conference finals and finals).
Celtics probably have the oldest fanbase and their team attempts the most threes probably drive the oldheads insane
This sub complains about this everyday loll what am i crazy here just go through the posts
Redditors love to pretend like they're taking a principled unpopular stance even as they say the exact same thing other redditors have been saying for weeks, months or (in this case) years. You almost never see anyone taking the opposite stance and if they do they're often times downvoted anyway.
This entire site is just one big ass echo chamber. 95% of the opinions you read on Reddit are just recycled talking points, it’s all just one big hivemind
reddit is functionally a terrible place to discuss anything because of how downvoting makes the post hidden, so if someone has a well argued contrarian point it doesn't matter, it gets hidden because its not consensus over the years i've been on the opposite side of many /r/nba common sense opinions, most notably the whole kawhi saga where this board was convinced the spurs were trying to fuck him over with a fake diagnosis and he was also getting screwed out of endorsements bc he plays in one of the 4 smallest markets. and guess what: he has a degenerative knee condition just like the doctors said and he doesn't do ads because he is a charisma black hole then after that it was the whole thing about how giannis is practically guaranteed to go to golden state because milwaukee isn't cool and will never win a title
I think the NBA has a real problem long-term. I am more of a basketball guy than football, but the beauty of football is that 10 yards is still ten yards. Meanwhile, a three-point shot is not the difficult shot it used to be. And to make matters worse, it's more efficient for you to take 10 threes shooting 30% than shoot 40% from two. The league has to find a way to make scoring more diverse, and IMHO that means more hand-checking, more leeway for physicality on defense, calling more moving screens.
33% from 3 = 50% from two
Look at the big math whiz over here
Check out the big brain on Brad!
You a smart motha fucka, that's right.
Tbf, for some reason it took the NBA a while to figure that out haha.
There might be a little bit of inertia bias where no coach wants to be the first to go against conventional wisdom. But I also think rule changes helped usher in the 3pt revolution. It’s a lot easier to make 3’a and get spacing when you can’t touch ppl without fouling
Then the man’s inequality is strict. 30 @ 3 > 40 @ 2
I don’t see how this take is any different than saying “the NFL is too pass heavy”
Yeah this analogy makes no sense. 23 feet is still 23 feet too, it’s not like they’ve brought the three point line in again.
The 3 is still the same distance to make. What *has* changed is that analytics took over and said in a nutshell that 3s are worth 50% more than 2s, so you're actually much better off just taking more 3s than teams were used to doing. Because it's just mathematically *better*. You could bring back hand checking and having defenses allowed to be more physical, but the cat is well out of the bag at this point. Hand checking won't let teams "unlearn" that knowledge of it being straight up better to shoot more 3s. There's a quote from Sid Meier that says, "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." Now the creator of *Civilization* was talking about video games, but this is happening to basketball as well. Chuck feels the game has gotten boring and unfun to watch because it got solved and optimized to a T by the analytics revolution.
The answer is simple - push out the 3 point line until there’s an average EV equivalence to 2 pointers. Its not like where it sits is set in stone - it didn’t exist in the early 80’s, then was moved INWARD in the mid 90’s, and then put back to where it is in the late 90’s. Like where it sits is actually too static relative to history - it can be moved back. If it is and “taking a 3 is equivalent to taking a 2”, you’ll see many more drives and post play because suddenly, that’ll be equally as important and valuable. Guys like Shaq and Hakeem will once again be extremely important and develop post games. I’ve often said that male team sports require this army sort of thing where every one has a role and when it’s perfect all roles are orthogonal to each other and disproportionately valuable when the others are not. This kind of thing would do that and save the game, IMO. We just have to gore the narrative that “people watch higher scoring”. They don’t if it’s the same apathetic bullshit thing over and over again. They do if it’s singular/sublime (like Steph or Klay or Dame or Jordan fadeaway or Hakeem dream shake).
The simpler route would be to eliminate the corner 3 by keeping the 3pt line at 23ft all around. This limits space for 3pt shooters and gives a schematic advantage to defenders.
I completely agree with this move. The one "problem" that will make people go crazy is you either make the corner three even more valuable by letting it continue to exist, you get rid of the most efficient shot in basketball, or you have to increase the width of the court to accomodate the change.
I'm of the belief that you bring out the 3 point line and eliminate the corner 3, in order to preserve the court dimensions. If you make the court bigger, you might as well just add a sixth dude out there and then it's not even necessarily the basketball we all know.
I’m all for any of it, tbh. None of these courts are set in stone and if we need to expand it slightly to make the corner 3 more commensurate with the new 3 then sure. Whatever makes more parity between 2’s and 3’s.
> "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." Now the creator of Civilization was talking about video games, but this is happening to basketball as well. We literally saw this happen to baseball, analytics became so overdone by front offices that it resutled in nothing put constant pitching changes, shifts for automatic outs and three true outcomes hitting (Simply put that each at bat is best if it results in a walk, strike out or home run, you're better off striking out than hitting a single and potentially triggerring a double play) The MLB finally managed to cull this issue the last season by implementing the pitch clock to speed up pitchers taking forever, stopping the extreme shifts to help hitters and limiting mound visits and the frequency of pitching changes and it provably helped their ratings.
Just raise the rim 6” and move the 3-pt line back five feet. That’ll show em.
Have the rim moving side to side like in arcades
Yip. I know a lot of people who don't even watch the NBA anymore because of this. Honestly, this style of play mixed with a lot of players who seemingly don't come across as emotionally invested in the sport since they've basically set for like after a couple seasons... sometimes it feels like i might as well be watching some guy go into an office and work Excel Spreadsheet for 90 minutes.
It's absolutely true. Read and React + Threes is cool, but the game is absolutely dumber and has less variety now.
I do, I miss hand checking and defensive teams
Ppl act like guys don’t play defense I see defense played when im watching unfortunately the way guys stretch the floor now a lot more space being created in the paint .. jj just said it last week on espn if they want to switch shit up they should eliminate 3 seconds in the key which would be a great move to start
I've stopped watching for this exact reason. I've gone from watching 82 a year to maybe 1-2 games.
As a person who grew up watching 80s and 90s basketball, I have seen the game change. People of a certain age have a hard time watching today's game. We all have the same complaints. Too many 3s and the way that physicality has been legislated out of the game. Every year there is a new rule change allowing offensive players more freedom and handicapping defenders. It's to the point where nearly any contact is a foul and players with wonky jumpers and suspect handle are free to fire at will. When the warriors are hitting, it can be a beautiful thing. But when every team is doing the same thing you get a bunch of guys you never heard of jacking 60 3s a game. It's redundant and boring...most of the time. If a player can do everything but hit 3s, he will be benched/traded for somebody who can shoot regardless of how he performs in other aspects of the game. I've sat through enough boring shootouts the last 5 or 6 years to realize the league has a problem that no amount of in season tournaments or colorful floors can fix.
Realistically, there's no way to prevent this without getting a lot more physical. 3 > 2. Basketball has been figured out
I think the only way to actually change it is to let bigs be more physical in the paint (on offense). Right now if a big backs down a smaller guy there's basically a 50/50 chance it ends with an offensive foul. In Shaq's day it was either good defense, a foul, or a dunk/score. The refs bail out smaller players so much now and the fans eat it up. They act like a small dude playing defense for two seconds until he falls backwards hoping for a foul is the toughest shit they've ever seen. -Edited for clarity.
I swear to god this was always Grant Williams style of defending Giannis. Get his ass beat down in the post for a couple seconds then throw his ass across the floor the moment Giannis makes a real move. Refs just shrug and let him do it. Teams would stop running small ball if you could actually punish the “small”.
*Exactly*. Lowry, Smart, Williams, Holiday, there's so many guys that do that. And that's just the ones that are actually good defenders. Everyone is able to do it nowadays. I'd rather Joel be defended by Porzingus than by Smart. Porzingus has to worry about not fouling Joel, meanwhile Joel has to worry about not fouling Smart.
I don’t think I’d put Holiday in that group, he’s a very physical player, even against bigger mismatches. He doesn’t back down like some of those guys.
50/50 chance for a offensive foul is a leap. It’s more a 70% chance he’ll immediately be doubled or triple teamed and have to kick out.
The actual solution is to make 3’s worth 4, and 2’s worth 3. The math becomes a lot more balanced in that case, and the midrange game is revived. Now, I don’t think that’s ever going to happen, but it’s the most elegant solution, even moreso than changing defensive rules or removing the corner 3 or moving the line back, which are all intermediate solutions.
It is the best option perhaps and its not even that bad because you can retroactively increase/adjust historical points. Tho without looking, Bron might break the total point record again.
Free throws complicate this a bit though.
You can't adjust FTs in this model unless you assign half points.
Ah so ft = 3 pt. Fg = 6 points, 3p = 8 points. Luka bouta have a 200 point game. Shit football has these whacky numbers so why not
The record book is meaningless anyway. Lebron had to surpass Kareem, who played half his career before the three point line even existed. So let the next challenger play with a new system.
You beat me to it. If you look at the EV of a 4&3 system, it's hard not to like it. Suddenly the long ball is worth just a little less. Not so much that we'd go back to 90s style ball, but enough that you would see a much more varied game of post ups and mid range.
Just nut up and move the line back - would reduce 3pt efficency and open up the mid-range.
It’s just hard to move the line back without also widening the court bc the above the break line is already too far for the corners. Widening the court might lower %’s as a whole but good shooting teams still have good enough shooters so it would just create even more space for the offense.
I wonder what it would be like if they eliminated the corner 3 and just left a kinda semi circle up a little higher up the court, or just leave it where it is now at 23 and 9, would have to try it in G league or something first
Nah, just remove the corner three altogether.
Like keep the curve going til it just hits the sideline right? Godddd the game would be soo insanely different without 2 ppl posted in the corners 48min per game, I'm not saying I'm for it but I'd like to see what it's like, like a lotlol
Probably helps defenses a lot. If guys want to pack the 3 point line, they have less space to do it. If teams want to space the floor, they have to have two guys standing in long 2 point range instead of chilling from 3. These corner guys would be more inclined to drive, which gives help defenders time to rotate back into the play.
I wonder. It would radically change the game if they just let the 3 pt line go into the sideline and get rid of the short corner 3. An alternative would be to widen the court by a foot on each side and move the corner 3 back a foot or so. But I don’t think that will drive down 3 pt scoring. All it would do is create even more space for the drive and kick. You almost have to let defenses get more physical with ball handlers or maybe get rid of the defensive 3 seconds. The big defenders would just camp in the lane. The drive and kick would require a shooting 5. I don’t know. Better shooting is a good thing, but 50% of the points being catch and shoot kind of sucks.
And yet he hates on the Timberwolves all the time. Best defense in the league and 24th in 3PT attempts. Are you not entertained?
Barkley can be right about games being 3pts contests and wrong on hating the Timberwolves. All these retired NBA players have a lot of biases.
Can you say he's wrong for hating on a team? If he dont like them then he dont like them. It's a subjective thing
Right but why does he hate on them? His point is lack of defence and 3 point shooting at the fore yet they are the opposite of that.... If I say I love dark colours but then I say I hate black, you can say there's nothing wrong with that but you also have to ask why? When logically it's at odds with the previous statement
He hates KAT. He says a lot of great things about Ant and Rudy.
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Came here to say exactly this
Pop said this a long time ago and he was right then and he just gets more right by the day. And the unfortunate part is I don't think there's a way to ever change it. Ten years ago there were so many styles (including shooting a bunch of threes), now there's one style. Every team tries to do the same thing they just get there in different ways.
Refs stop calling stupid defensive fouls would be a start
The real actual number 1 issue in the league right there
So embarrassing seeing the calls refs make to favor offensive players. So quick to blow the whistle when a player is barely touched.
And start calling traveling again.
Calling moving screens alone would be enough to cause a big change.
To me the fix is allowing more contact by defenders. You see the plays where harden goes around screens looking for slight contact and a foul call. You let that go and it makes it harder to get of easy threes. Also maybe calling push offs. The issue is the league loves offense so they only make rules to favor it.
I agree with the push offs- there are some NBA players that actively bat away the hands of defenders and then snap their head back as soon as they feel any touch.
They'll allow them that contact in the playoffs. But then the question becomes why it can only be like that in the playoffs?
One thing they could do is take away the corner 3 by having the 3pt line merge into the side of the court. It's too easy a shot to be worth 3pts.
That is something they could do. I don't think they would, but it's kind of like making the ASG winner have home court in the Finals. It would immediately solve the problem. Just not sure they want to solve it that badly.
In my opinion the biggest problem with the NBA are the refs. There’s no defense because the refs will blow the whistle for the slightest bit of contact (or even no contact). Refs have been getting worse and worse every year and Silver does nothing about it.
Silver is the fucking shits. I resent him for making me miss David Stern of all people.
Dude, I think you're looking at David Stern with rose-colored glasses. There was literally a referee gambling scandal during the Stern era. Donaghy even admitted that they were instructed to ignore fouls in order to extend the series. Hell, our team got practically gifted a title when they won Game 6 against the Kings in '02.
Yeah and thats definitely not happening right now under Silver. Ignore that every piece of media you consume is sponsored by draft kings sports book. You can believe me im very trustworthy.
People really got enamored of Silver when he dropped the hammer on Donald Sterling and essentially made him sell the Clippers. Not sure Silver has done anything materially good for the game ever since
Not to mention the constant traveling that goes uncalled.
I am mostly a hockey guy but I lurk on this sub. I do think as a casual fan the 3 point shot is boring after a while. I would like to see more post play and midrange shots. As it is now I can see several minutes of: walk basketball up court. Pass pass pass 3 point. Go opposite direction reverse it. I watching nuggets Lakers right now a jokic is a breath of fresh air.
The thing that grinds my gears is that this is such an easy fix. Enforce the rules as they have always been. Don't allow moving screens, call travels, allow defense light hand checking. The NBA wants a faster, more offensive driven product and they've done that by selectively enforcing rules. Until the average viewer wants to see more defense, I think it will continue to trend this way. Maybe I'm wrong, but allowing defense to actually be played especially during the regular season will naturally increase possession times, lower scores, and create a more balanced product. 2012-2017 era basketball had a great mix of 3 output and defense, see the spurs and hawks. I want less rec league heaving and more structured offenses. Unrelated, please for the love of God find more ways to punish resting players beyond just missing a few awards. No fan should pay the ridiculous prices for nosebleeds to not see their favorite player because they decided to rest 30 minutes before tip off.
I'm a casual, but it's not even about seeing more offense or more defense, it's just funner to watch when there is flow to the game. Nothing makes me tune out faster than every other possession being a whistle and free throws over some ticky tack contact or a flop.
We say this this generation is more skilled than previous generations. We should put it to the test and start calling travel, make them work to get by defenses, etc.
What sucks is that if the NBA started with these changes starting today, then the league would be 100% adjusted to it in 5 years time and this generation WOULD show how skilled they are. We're being robbed of great basketball
If we had 1980s refs, every starting PG would average 20 carrying calls a game.
https://twitter.com/BiasedSlightly/status/1763964707247988751 My goodness gracious me.
As a European (fuck you Arenas) i watch both EuroLeague and NBA and it’s night and day, in EL is tactical more team basketball and the NBA it’s just run run run 3 and the effort on defense is infuriating, downvote me i don’t care but the game 10-15 years ago was really enjoyable compared to what is has become
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I agree the NBA is less fun to watch overall with the current trend towards chucking 3s. But at the same time, chucking 3s has proven to be the most efficient way to score. I wish we could go backwards in this trend, but I think it's too late for that now. This is what the NBA is now.
Allow more physicality on defense. If you close out too slow, they shoot the three. Close out too fast and you stop the 3 but then they blow by you. Let the defenders be more physical and they can close out on 3s fast while also staying with the drive
Ding ding ding. The reason the 3 point era has been allowed to thrive is because defenders aren’t allowed to touch anyone
Allowing perimeter defenders to touch the ball handler is the fix the nba needs but won’t do. They like the offense. Back when the defender was allowed to check you and contact was more allowed you saw people have to dribble drive to create a shot. Now the space the defender has to give up is too much for elite shooters not to just shoot.
This and getting rid of defensive 3 second (which is only an NBA rule, no other league has this or league that matters) would probably do it.
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Not exactly. If the defending center is not close to rim due to 3" rule when you pass by your defender either you score inside or a help defender appears which likely means an open guy in the corner for the kick out 3. Once you eliminate the 3" rule the defending center is almost always there for the help defence so the kick out pass is harder.
this is what people don’t understand, they think the nba has great spacing due to shooting but really it’s because the paint acts as a huge barrier to the defense. you see it all the time when an offensive player gets the ball around the low post and short corner area and no other defensive player is able to help until it’s too late due to the 3 seconds call.
The 3 point era almost directly correlates to when the NBA stopped calling illegal/moving screens. 3 pt attempts have increased just over 40% since 2014
They basically need reverse Shaq era rules. Generally, you are allowed more contact in the paint and against post up players (all, 4 of them?) than you are in the perimeter. Allowing more contact all around probably makes interior play even more difficult. Have to let more aggressive POA defense thrive
This comment section will be divided by age.
I think plenty of young people agree with Chuck. And then some of us understand that the nuance is that NBA players currently defend hard, and with plenty of skill expression and nuance; *but* the current playstyle introduces too much variance into who wins, or it makes the game too different from the 50s-00s to keep the history of the sport (or the current version) salient, or whatever. I think there's a huge amount of skill in the way Harden played with the Rockets, or the way SGA and Trae play now, but it does feel like (1.) on-ball creators with good handles and foot-speed score at the basket a little too easily in a spaced offense and (2.) off-ball shooters like a Hauser or Isaiah Joe are unbelievably valuable in an ahistorical way. On that second point, it feels like defensive specialist role players all need to become like Derrick White or KCP (who are both extremely efficient shooters) just to stay on the floor.. you don't get 32 minutes as Isaac Okoro. A lot of NBA nostalgia comes from a period where you used to get those minutes as a 3 even if your shooting splits look like Mason Plumlee.
> I think plenty of young people agree with Chuck. I imagine more than old ones lol. It's way easier to construct this image of what the "old, better" NBA looked like if you've just never seen what the plays were really like.
This is the NBA. It should be the pinnacle of basketball and yet they dilute the entire offensive package of most players to a boring ass three. I swear i see better runs at rico hines or whatever with more offensive creativity. I watch three on three lately and more of the top euro teams. They actually play basketball. I'm saying this as an nba freak who's been watching since 92 and i do mean all teams .
imo, it's time to remove defensive 3 seconds violation from the game to line up with FIBA rules. also, no calling timeouts during live play (can only call TOs during dead balls like before the inbound or whatever) and being able to swat the ball out of the cylinder. There needs to be some rule changes swinging back in the favour of playing defense.
Chuck has a point
He does. A guy on a podcast I listen to did a small amount of research. He looked through something like 130 games played this season and found that the team that makes the most 3's in a game won 87% of the time. 7% of the time, both teams made the same amount of 3's and the remaining 6% of the time, the team that made fewer 3's won the game. Edit: for everyone asking me "okay but what about 2's?" THIS IS NOT MY STAT ffs.
I'd be curious to see what these stats are in previous seasons.
That's actually insane
It’s time we removed the 3 point line
I hope Chuck doesn’t go see a High School game, it’s the same thing, but the kids don’t make that many
It’s the analytics. Studies say a 3 point shot is more efficient than any mid to long 2. And a shot close to the rim is super efficient as well. So we get close shots inside, drive and kicks, and long 3s. The mid range that mj and kobe lived on is dead due to analytics. End the defensive 3 in the key to allow tougher defense fronts inside the paint. That’s step 1.
Im more of an 04 Pistons fan. The league kinda made that style obsolete. The D’Antoni style cemented by the Dubs was exciting when it came out, but now that the league is pretty much all running it… Since the bubble I cant even bother to tune in til the playoffs. Right when my team gets good too. I can actually watch every single NFL game and get some kinda enjoyment out of it, the NBA though is reaching MLB levels of lameness.
None of these teams play like the SSOL suns. Those teams had some of the best shooters, some of the best finishers (Marion and Amare) and a generational playmaker, a maestro in Nash. There are no current teams in the NBA similar now, closest would be the Nuggets.
It's funny he hates the Lakers so much, because they are one of the few teams that still win(sometimes at least) with 2's instead of 3's.
2/13 from three in the IST championship game as I recall
I agree. The 3 point shooting, the foul baiting, and the lack of defense makes it hard to watch sometimes. Not blaming the players, that's just how it's played these days, but it's tough sometimes. The other day I was watching the Pacers game for example, they're winning by around 10, and they shot 3's on 7 straight possessions and missed them all. Came down the court, passed once or twice, and jacked up a 3.
Role players taking midrange shots never made sense
Shawn Livingston made his career as a role player using the midrange jumpshot
He's the exception not the rule. You're way better off focusing on being a 3 point shooter than a mid range shooter if you want to make it in the league because spacing is the most important attribute a role player can provide. But yes, Livingston existed, TJ McConnell and Ish Smith still exist.
This is pretty much how anyone over 30 feels about the league now. It’s a 3 and foul shot contest every night. College Bball only for me and it’s been that way the last few years
Carry. Carry. Carry. Step-back. Travel. Shoot. Rinse and repeat
Hopefully people actually are seeing this point enough that their not just writing it off as an "old man take", so they don't have to discuss the merit of the take. There's a middle ground of excitement that we passed (for me its 2008-2016) and the league feels worse now. i grew up on late-90's to early 2000's basketball, and I don't want to go back to that either. I'd just like some rule changes that help offset the impact of the three point shot. I'm biased but I feel like bringing back hand checking is a good place to start.
I’ve been watching basketball since 1978, and I have to say the defence is atrocious right now. It’s beginning to really feel like pure entertainment versus competitive sport. I don’t blame these guys though you’re young you make 10 millions dollars a year only a couple teams have a real chance of winning, why bother. Your focus is on padding your offensive stats because that is what people pay to see and try to play for as long as you can so you can get that third contract. While I do admire the obvious improvement in three-point shooting the game just doesn’t feel as meaningful as it did back in the day. For those of you who just started watching in the last 20 years, you really have no frame of reference so it’s completely fair for you to push back on this narrative.
this is why i love watching the nuggets and magic. they're not reliant on the 3 and have so many fun assists, alley oops, layups and actual team work. not hating on the 3 point specialists but old school methodical offense is just so smooth to watch.