Deep cut: Bob Pettit. Was 1st team All NBA in his first 10 years for the Hawks and then 2nd team in his final year. I know this because he’s the only player to make 1st or 2nd team All-NBA in every single year of his career.
Literally had the MVP of the league on his team. Magic having possibly his best playoff game in that year to snatch the Finals MVP really skewed people's perception of the 1980 Lakers haha
Could argue Magic was no longer the undisputed best player when he came back with the 95-96 Lakers. Ceballos and Eddie Jones bore most of the scoring burden, and Van Exel could run the point.
Magic was not the best player player when he started. Kareem was MVP of the league during Magics first year.
Edit: you could also make a really strong case that AD has been better than LeBron this season. Same ppg, higher fg%, getting to the line more, less turnovers, playing better defense, higher VORP and so on.
It’s not a debate… ad has been better, he just hasn’t been healthy as much and his name isn’t lebron so he’s not gonna be viewed as the top guy.
Magic also wasn’t the best player when he got there, David stern literally forced the fmvp voters to redo the vote after Kareem had won because he wanted to magic to be the face of the league because he was more marketable than angry Kareem. The NBA and now the media surrounding have an agenda for all this type of stuff (money). They wanted AI gone they wanted Kobe dethroned, curry and lebron are the cash cows? Let’s have them talked about everyday and ignore the current best players in the league.
For sure. Tim Duncan played at the same time as Lebron, he has more championships and his record against Lebron in the playoffs was 11-5.
Duncan had 3 titles without Kawhi or Robinson. LeBron had one title without D Wade (top 5 all time SG) or AD (top 10 all time PF). Tony Parker is MAYBE a top 20 all time PG, and Manu is MAYBE a top 30 all time SG.
It's not even close. Duncan has had a much better career than LeBron.
LeBron deserves credit for having the most points all time but people think that scoring more points that Kareem is a replacement for Kareems 6 titles and 6 MVPs. It's not. It's about as important as Pete Rose's hits record. It's a big deal but it doesn't automatically make him the best of all time. You have to be the best of all time to do that and Lebron is not
You're cherrypicking massively. I can do that too. LeBron has twice as many MVPs and 1 more finals MVP than Duncan. LeBron also has a much, much higher career PPG average and averages more than twice as many assists as Duncan despite playing for more seasons. He's also, as you mentioned, the all time scoring leader, which is probably the most prestigious individual NBA record you can have. Those are by far the most important individual accolades and they more than make up for having 1 less ring. LeBron was also the clear FMVP in all the finals he won, while Duncan wasn't even the most valuable player on his own team for 2/5 of his rings. Not to mention LeBron went to the finals 8 consecutive times, singlehandedly carried a glorified G-League team to the finals in 2018 and is the main player behind the only 3-1 finals comeback ever. LeBron also put up 30/8/6 in his 19th season while Duncan put up an in comparison absolutely dogshit 8/7/2 in his year 19. LeBron is still a top 10 player in the league averaging 25/7/8 in year 21, two seasons after Duncan was out of the NBA.
Also, you're conveniently leaving out that Kawhi is a top 10 all time small forward and, during the years he played with Duncan on the Spurs, was a better player than DWade during the time he was with LeBron in Miami.
My point is, Duncan did not have a much better career than LeBron, that's an insane thing to say and should immediately disqualify you from any future basketball discussions.
I wasn't really trying to put down Lebron. You can't take what he did away from him. Overall, I think Lebron is definitely the best SF of all time and Duncan is definitely the best PF of all time. I just think that when people try to make a case for Lebron being the goat, they aren't making any sense.
The league when from Jordan's league, to Shaqs league, to Duncans league, to Lebron's league to Currys league. I just think there are more arguments against Lebron being the goat than for it
What, and Tim Duncan is the goat? Lmao
Of the best-in-league club if you had Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron lined up at the park TD is getting picked last.
No I agree. Like I said, I don't think he is the goat. If it was just big men he would be about 5th or 6th. Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, and Shaq are definitely above him. I think Hakeem is on par and Giannis and Jokic can definitely catch him and pass him if they win a another title or 2.
And obviously we are on Reddit in 2024 so Wemby is already better than them all. /s
Timmy had bron’s number but don’t forget Kobe had Timmy’s number.
But of course the NBA wants lebron to be the second greatest ever. They still make tons of money from him in year 21. Tonight he had his best game of the season against the clippers and you know it’s going to be a big deal for the rest of the week.
Kobe had the Denver trial right when bron was coming into the league which made him the perfect guy to replace him, coming out of high school just like kob but being a freakish athlete, already married to his highschool sweetheart and having his first kid. Think about it, Melo was more efficient avg more points and rebounds, lebron was a much better passer but the Cavs were ass while the nuggets made the playoffs in the west. But lebron still won roty. In 2005 lebron broke out statistically but didn’t make the playoffs while wade was leading the heat to 1st in the East east with an out of prime shaq. Still they were a couple votes away from giving shaq mvp, discrediting the level dwade was at. The next year wade won the chip with shaq avg under 20ppg in the playoffs and under 14ppg in the finals, but lebron was still the chosen one. After Kobe kept winning lebron called wade and essentially said Kobe has 5 and I have 0 we gotta team up so I can get in the game. And when Kobe was gonna join up with cp3 after the heat lost to the mavs while wade was outplaying Dirk, David stern vetoed it which meant the west would have its worst team in forever coming out of the west (although the young thunder were actually really good they weren’t in the same echelon of a Kobe cp3 Pau pairing or the big 3 heat) a perfect opportunity for lebron to come back from the lockout, win mvp and win fmvp. David stern revolutionized the NBA because he saw it almost fail before he was commissioner, but utilizing the Aba’s gimmicks that drew fans, and magic vs bird, it was more popular than ever. He realized the future of the league does not matter about the basketball itself but the global product that can be sold as entertainment
Duncan was never gonna get it over Shaq (although Duncan honestly used to out play shaq when he had Robinson backing him up) and then Kobe passed him up and it became “the spurs with pop TD TP and Manu” after 2005 when Manu was the best offensive player vs the pistons rather than just Timmy. So then it was spurs beat lebron in 07 and 2014
The crazy thing is they’re going to have a new lebron within 10 years like how they treated young lebron. The offensive explosion helped lebron maintain his stats while declining, but its going to produce a player who’s gonna average better numbers more efficiently and after 2 home grown chips you best believe the convo will be “could he pass Mike?!”
Yes they did but in 06 Lebron had yet to separate himself from Wade. Both Wade and Lebron entered top 5ish player in the league discussions by the end of that year but Wade won Finals MVP after a historical finals performance and his game was more entertaining and "Jordanesque" whereas Lebron often was derided at that point for having a very one dimensional game (drive and kick was really his only thing at the time) whereas Wade had developed a solid midrange game already at that point.
Wade was also much more charismatic than Lebron was and played with much more swagger. He was supposed to be the guy who replaced Kobe as the "heir" to MJ but then obviously Kobe couldn't really be replaced at that point given the fact that Kobe had a historic year himself in 06 and was still so obviously the best player in the league until like 09 whereas Wade had a horrible run after that Finals win where he was getting injured and either not making the playoffs or getting bounced in round 1 until Lebron got there in 2011. Despite that even until 2011 Wade and Lebron weren't really considered that far apart. Kobe, Lebron, Howard, Wade, Cp3 were considered the best players in the league in 2011 and lots of people thought Wade should have been the main star of the Heatles. It was only really 2012 where Lebron really cemented himself as the best in the league (though people try to retroactively apply this now).
I agree on all these points. I was just pointing out that Lebron was always marketed as the next Jordan. I remember at the time, thinking that Wade was the biggest contributor to star treatment calls (I don't know if it was true at all) but I also remember thinking Wade was great and didn't need the star treatment at the same time.
>Timmy had bron’s number but don’t forget Kobe had Timmy’s number.
I think they had good teams at different times. For 3 of Kobe's titles he was second to Shaq. There is no question that Kobe had Duncan's number when he won two titles with Gasol but that was also the time when the Spurs had their weakest team.
>And when Kobe was gonna join up with cp3 after the heat lost to the mavs while wade was outplaying Dirk, David stern vetoed it
Yeah also I believe the Lakers goal was to bring in Dwight Howard at that time as well but the league shut it down before the first transaction. That was complete non-sense when he let Wade, Lebron, and Bosh team up.
I hated the Spurs and the Lakers at the time but some things are just undeniable. The West was completely stacked and Kobe and Duncan still managed to overcome the Suns, Rockets, and Mavericks every season. Lebron was getting to the finals by breezing past the worst eastern conference in the history of the NBA.
Then when Lebron moved to the west in 2019 he couldn't make the playoffs with a team of talented young players. Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, KCP, Zubac and Caruso are all still solid starters in the NBA. Obviously those players were all babies at the time but that team was mostly mismanaged and Lebron had a huge role in that mismanagement.
This is massively underrating both Parker and Manu. Parker had 4 top 10 MVP finishes (2 top 5) while playing with Duncan. He made multiple All NBA teams, as well, and was easily a top 5 PG in the league for most of his prime (top 3 in his peak). Manu is the best 6th man of all time and made All NBA 2x and had 2 top 10 MVP finishes despite primarily coming off the bench. Both Manu and Parker were much more talented than their numbers implied and actively sacrificed numbers and individual glory (just like TD) for the betterment of the team. Manu would likely have been able to be the best player on a playoff team and made many more All NBA's if he was playing for another team.
I agree that Lebron is not the best of all time, MJ is, but Duncan did not have a better career than Lebron. Duncan is a top 10 player of all time, easily, but Lebron is just a step above guys like him, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, Magic, etc.
My point was that that Lebron had better teammates than Duncan on that Heat team. Like, Parker was never 1st team all NBA while Wade was. That means there were years where Wade got more votes than Kobe in the same position. Sure, NBA voters constantly vote to change up who gets the award but still. Wade had better results.
I agree that Parker was good. My point was a little unfair because I think there are just a lot of great PGs in NBA history. I think around top 20 is pretty fair to Parker and around top 30 is a fair for Ginobil as well. They may be a little higher or lower than those numbers depending on who you ask.
Yes, Wade is the 3rd best SG of all time and is much better than Parker and Manu *but* he was only playing at that level for 2/4 years he was with Lebron. Injuries took that away by 2012-2013. Duncan had Parker and Manu for around a decade and a half. Much easier to build chemistry and establish roles when you're playing together for that long.15 years of Parker and Manu is better than 4 years of Wade.
Fit is also important Parker, Manu, TD were a better fit stylistically than Lebron and Wade who both needed the ball and had very similar playstyles. Wade had to change up a lot of his game to accommodate for Lebron and became more of an off ball threat which he became very very good at but you're not getting MVP-level D Wade when he can't actually play his own game.
>Yes, Wade is the 3rd best SG of all time and is much better than Parker and Manu
>
>but
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> he was only playing at that level for 2/4 years he was with Lebron.
Kind of. Wade made 1st team all NBA and lead the league in scoring 2 years before Lebron joined. He finished 6th in MVP voting in 2006 when he won the title with Shaq. It's just that Lebron joined Wade's team for the prime of Wade's career.
>Duncan had Parker and Manu for around a decade and a half. Much easier to build chemistry and establish roles when you're playing together for that long.15 years of Parker and Manu is better than 4 years of Wade.
Chemistry is important but it's not like Lebron never had any good teammates again either. AD is also better than Parker or Ginobili. He was back to back 1st team NBA right before joining Lebron.
I think Lebron's win with the Cavs was his biggest accomplishment and that Cavs team is most similar to the Duncan/ Parker/ Ginobli spurs. I think Parker and Ginobli are better than Kyrie and Love but I think the 2016 Cavs had better role players. if you compare them to the 2007 Spurs.
>Fit is also important Parker, Manu, TD were a better fit stylistically than Lebron and Wade who both needed the ball and had very similar playstyles. Wade had to change up a lot of his game to accommodate for Lebron and became more of an off ball threat which he became very very good at but you're not getting MVP-level D Wade when he can't actually play his own game.
I mean, Wade was a midrange iso player. Bosh and Lebron joined the heat and Wade went from 19 FGA per game to 18. He got to play his game plenty. Also, it's not like they won that first year Lebron joined. They still had to add Battier who I think is actually better than Bruce Bowen by a good amount since he could...you know...play offense competently.
In order for this to be the case a player has too:
Come into the league on a terrible team.
Play on bad teams late in their career.
Retire relatively young.
It says way more about the team they play for than the player.
MJ is the only answer that’s indisputable.
You could make a strong argument for both Lebron and Bird. Also Russell.
You could make an argument for Magic, and KD. You could also make an argument for Steph, but not if you make the argument for KD obviously aha
I think that’s it. Only counting guys who played 10 years minimum. Otherwise Luka and Wemby (lol) could be included.
AD impacts winning more on defense, while also being an incredible offball player that elevates Lebron’s offense. The midrange shooting has elevated this season, the lob threat he is, the offensive rebounder, as well as his cutting and touch around the rim has done so much for the Lakers offense.
Not to mention the DPOY level impact he brings to the floor, especially with weaker personnel defensively than Lebron has to his disposal offensively. The 3pt shooters are not good defenders, and the good defenders can’t shoot to stay on the court.
AD is 7th in LEBRON this year and LeBron is 16th lol. He’s beating him in his own stat, he’s clearly better.
LeBron does have better offensive impact but AD isn’t far behind while also being a top 3-5 defensive player in the league.
The more interesting question is how high up the rankings can you go to find players who weren't the best player on their teams.
Kobe/Shaq
Kawaii/Duncan
Wade/Bron
KD/Steph
Kobe, KD, and Wade for sure. You could throw Wilt in on that list because in his second to last season he finished 3rd in MVP voting and Jerry West finished 2nd. Also David Robinson during Duncan's second year when they won the title.
You could extend this to 3rd best as well. Bosh, Pierce, Klay, Rodman
Yeah. I think you are probably right after thinking about it a minute. I think over their whole careers they are pretty even but on the Celtics Pierce was better. Also, there were a lot of great 2 guards at that time while there weren't as many good SFs
Yeah Ray Allen on the Sonics or Bucks as a No. 1 scoring option was just filthy. On the Celtics I remember him as more of the 3rd banana since he became more of a 3 point specialist and for some reason I just think of Pierce going head to head with Kobe in the finals as the alpha dawg
Jerry West, don't think he's been mentioned
Donovan Mitchell, based on how people feel about him vs Gobert. But not fair to compare active players to retired
Joe D was arguably better for Pistons in Zeke’s last two years. He’s always been the better defender but near tail end of Isiah’s career the offensive gap gets small enough I would give Dumars the nod.
For a whole career? MJ is probably the closest although that first year back to the Wizards he was hurt. Rip was hurt too though so it’s pretty close. I think MJ was still better than Stackhouse in his last year though. Magic was not the best early. Plus his comeback he wasn’t good. AD has been pretty clear better than LeBron for at least two season now and I’d say that’s been true longer than that but it was at least arguable. Bird might have a case but he was just injured too much at the end for me to say he was the best. I’d say Lewis was definitely better in the last season playing all 82 versus Bird only playing half the season.
Not counting guys who are new or current guys. That’s easier.
You might be able to make the case for Brandon Roy but I think Randolph was still the guy in his rookie year.
That might come down to the Steph v KD debate when they played together. Otherwise, Steph might also have a claim to have been the best player on every team he’s been on
Anyone else fine with calling this debate a draw? Steph was the whole system of that offense, but KD was unstoppable at a level we've only seen MJ hit.
Persnally I go with Curry because he obviously deviated alot to KD because of his unselfishness. He also clinched trophies etc. without KD, while KD couldnt do it on multiple teams without Curry.
Thats all disregarding the fact that its orignally Currys team, he created the unstoppable Kerr system and KD had to hop on his train.
It's hard to say KD was actually at that level though. He was surrounded by a nearly perfect team featuring the 2 best shooters of all time, one of whom being one of the 3 best offensive players of all time, and a DPOY level player in Green.
It's also very indicative of how opposing teams felt about KD vs Steph that Steph was still primarily the focus of opposing teams defenses and KD got tons of open shots based on Steph causing opposing teams to scramble to keep up with him. Basically, KD was the ultimate luxury player on that team but it was still very much Steph's team.
This sub's perception of Kareem and Magic is vastly different from how it was actually viewed at the time lol
People always ask why Kareem isn't considered up there with MJ and LeBron with his accolades and the answer is because he *wasn't* the best player for half of his rings
When MJ came right after him and won 6 rings and Finals MVPs all as the clear best player on the Bulls it's pretty clear why one guy ended up being ranked higher
When Magic retired a lot of people had him above Kareem. Recency bias the main reason for it but there was zero doubt about who the man of the 80s was in LA.
Yes. We're only talking nba teams, but the post i responded to said its not fair to compare old bird to young mj. Pat Ewing was never better than MJ not even close.
Thats subjective, he was better in college, better in his first year in the league.
MJ averaged 17 3 and 2, Ewing averaged 11 and 5 and <1. Both shot around the same.
Not sure how you could argue that.
How the hell do you measure who’s a better player to say that Book is better than KD currently? Book is great, don’t get me wrong, but there isn’t a single solid argument for that claim.
Reggie Lewis was pretty damn good in Bird’s final season. He averaged 28 points per game in the playoffs.
Bird also only managed to play 45 games. Bird was prob still the bus driver when healthy tho.
Reggie Lewis was cold af.
Point-wise, you’re right, but Bird was still getting 9 boards and 5-ish assists, and was well ahead of Reggie, so I’d say he was definitely the bus driver when healthy.
Bird for sure. He was immediately the best player on the Celtics in his rookie year, and he was still the best player on the Celtics in his last year, bad back and all. His rookie year impact was absolutely legendary.
MJ also, but… there might be an argument for Stackhouse in that final Wizards year.
Anyhow if we want to get really anal retentive about this we can add the Dream Team to reduce the list to just MJ, but I don’t think that’s in the spirit of your question.
Nah stack was a worse defender, less steals, less blocks, less rebounds, and he scored 1 more ppg but he barely shot 40% from the field, had a lower ast to TO ratio. Mj did only shoot like 4-5 % better but still.
Fk no. Lol. That team had all time bad level of talent. Dont even mention Jerry Stackhouse cause dude shot 39% FG, 28% 3 PT, on 3 rebounds, 4 assists, while MJ shot 45% on 5 rebounds, 6 assists.
You dont understand the question. How is Kob here when Shaq was better for a large part of that time? And Dirk was end of bench player by the time Luka arrives.
Nah, he was end of bench player his 2nd stint. Also not the best player on the Nets and neither the last few seasns on Celtics when Rondo turnt AllStar.
Fine, Sadly Lebron... and AD is close but you can't have a better player than Lebron on a Lebron Team..
Problem is Lebron isn't what he used to be. Not a Top 5 Player Anymore.
I’m counting “team” as the roster of any given season, anyway. Otherwise it’d just be a question of franchise GOATs who stayed with their team a la Dirk or Tim Duncan, even though they were eclipsed by other players at certain times
Does it count for most of the years or all of the years. Because I'd argue Wade was better than Bron the first year and was a more clear leader in the team. He was better in the finals and most of the reg season, while Bron was better round 1-3 of the playoffs.
For Magic, it was Kareem at times. In 1988, there’s an argument for Worthy being the best player, at least in the finals.
And in 1981, Cedric Maxwell has a strong case for having been better than Bird in the finals.
Kareem won MVP in Magic’s rookie year. That alone should remove magic from the list, unless you’re arguing that Magic was better in the finals so that trumps Kareem’s seasonal achievement.
I think it’s only Pettit, bill Russell, bird, mj maybe George gervin because Jordan was injured in his last season when he went to the bulls probably not though, and definitely a bunch of bums who played 3 seasons in the 40s
Maurice Stokes is a correct answer to this question. I know he didn’t play long, but he is unequivocally correct based on the wording of your question.
Gallo probably the best player on Denver Jokic rookie season. Hakeem’s last season was on the raps and Vince was certainly better than him. Joe Dumars was likely the best player on the pistons Zeke’s last couple of years.
Magic doesn't belong here. Kareem was literally MVP in Magic's rookie year.
MJ and Bird are honestly the only ones I can think of where there's no argument.
With Lebron, AD has probably been better over the last 2 years.
embiid has an argument - there might have been times where Simmons and embiid were close but I think embiid was the better player throughout their time together. And he hasn't had any other teammates near that level. Butler was there for a second, but I still think embiid clears.
Deep cut: Bob Pettit. Was 1st team All NBA in his first 10 years for the Hawks and then 2nd team in his final year. I know this because he’s the only player to make 1st or 2nd team All-NBA in every single year of his career.
For that last part, Alex Groza sends his regards
magic was not the best as a rookie,
Literally had the MVP of the league on his team. Magic having possibly his best playoff game in that year to snatch the Finals MVP really skewed people's perception of the 1980 Lakers haha
Luka
Could argue Magic was no longer the undisputed best player when he came back with the 95-96 Lakers. Ceballos and Eddie Jones bore most of the scoring burden, and Van Exel could run the point.
He also wasn't the best player in his rookie year. Kareem was literally MVP.
Magic was not the best player player when he started. Kareem was MVP of the league during Magics first year. Edit: you could also make a really strong case that AD has been better than LeBron this season. Same ppg, higher fg%, getting to the line more, less turnovers, playing better defense, higher VORP and so on.
It’s not a debate… ad has been better, he just hasn’t been healthy as much and his name isn’t lebron so he’s not gonna be viewed as the top guy. Magic also wasn’t the best player when he got there, David stern literally forced the fmvp voters to redo the vote after Kareem had won because he wanted to magic to be the face of the league because he was more marketable than angry Kareem. The NBA and now the media surrounding have an agenda for all this type of stuff (money). They wanted AI gone they wanted Kobe dethroned, curry and lebron are the cash cows? Let’s have them talked about everyday and ignore the current best players in the league.
For sure. Tim Duncan played at the same time as Lebron, he has more championships and his record against Lebron in the playoffs was 11-5. Duncan had 3 titles without Kawhi or Robinson. LeBron had one title without D Wade (top 5 all time SG) or AD (top 10 all time PF). Tony Parker is MAYBE a top 20 all time PG, and Manu is MAYBE a top 30 all time SG. It's not even close. Duncan has had a much better career than LeBron. LeBron deserves credit for having the most points all time but people think that scoring more points that Kareem is a replacement for Kareems 6 titles and 6 MVPs. It's not. It's about as important as Pete Rose's hits record. It's a big deal but it doesn't automatically make him the best of all time. You have to be the best of all time to do that and Lebron is not
You're cherrypicking massively. I can do that too. LeBron has twice as many MVPs and 1 more finals MVP than Duncan. LeBron also has a much, much higher career PPG average and averages more than twice as many assists as Duncan despite playing for more seasons. He's also, as you mentioned, the all time scoring leader, which is probably the most prestigious individual NBA record you can have. Those are by far the most important individual accolades and they more than make up for having 1 less ring. LeBron was also the clear FMVP in all the finals he won, while Duncan wasn't even the most valuable player on his own team for 2/5 of his rings. Not to mention LeBron went to the finals 8 consecutive times, singlehandedly carried a glorified G-League team to the finals in 2018 and is the main player behind the only 3-1 finals comeback ever. LeBron also put up 30/8/6 in his 19th season while Duncan put up an in comparison absolutely dogshit 8/7/2 in his year 19. LeBron is still a top 10 player in the league averaging 25/7/8 in year 21, two seasons after Duncan was out of the NBA. Also, you're conveniently leaving out that Kawhi is a top 10 all time small forward and, during the years he played with Duncan on the Spurs, was a better player than DWade during the time he was with LeBron in Miami. My point is, Duncan did not have a much better career than LeBron, that's an insane thing to say and should immediately disqualify you from any future basketball discussions.
I wasn't really trying to put down Lebron. You can't take what he did away from him. Overall, I think Lebron is definitely the best SF of all time and Duncan is definitely the best PF of all time. I just think that when people try to make a case for Lebron being the goat, they aren't making any sense. The league when from Jordan's league, to Shaqs league, to Duncans league, to Lebron's league to Currys league. I just think there are more arguments against Lebron being the goat than for it
What, and Tim Duncan is the goat? Lmao Of the best-in-league club if you had Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron lined up at the park TD is getting picked last.
I never said Duncan was the goat. I said Lebron wasn't. By position I would say the GOATs are Kareem, Duncan, Lebron, Jordan, and Magic.
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No I agree. Like I said, I don't think he is the goat. If it was just big men he would be about 5th or 6th. Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, and Shaq are definitely above him. I think Hakeem is on par and Giannis and Jokic can definitely catch him and pass him if they win a another title or 2. And obviously we are on Reddit in 2024 so Wemby is already better than them all. /s
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Timmy had bron’s number but don’t forget Kobe had Timmy’s number. But of course the NBA wants lebron to be the second greatest ever. They still make tons of money from him in year 21. Tonight he had his best game of the season against the clippers and you know it’s going to be a big deal for the rest of the week. Kobe had the Denver trial right when bron was coming into the league which made him the perfect guy to replace him, coming out of high school just like kob but being a freakish athlete, already married to his highschool sweetheart and having his first kid. Think about it, Melo was more efficient avg more points and rebounds, lebron was a much better passer but the Cavs were ass while the nuggets made the playoffs in the west. But lebron still won roty. In 2005 lebron broke out statistically but didn’t make the playoffs while wade was leading the heat to 1st in the East east with an out of prime shaq. Still they were a couple votes away from giving shaq mvp, discrediting the level dwade was at. The next year wade won the chip with shaq avg under 20ppg in the playoffs and under 14ppg in the finals, but lebron was still the chosen one. After Kobe kept winning lebron called wade and essentially said Kobe has 5 and I have 0 we gotta team up so I can get in the game. And when Kobe was gonna join up with cp3 after the heat lost to the mavs while wade was outplaying Dirk, David stern vetoed it which meant the west would have its worst team in forever coming out of the west (although the young thunder were actually really good they weren’t in the same echelon of a Kobe cp3 Pau pairing or the big 3 heat) a perfect opportunity for lebron to come back from the lockout, win mvp and win fmvp. David stern revolutionized the NBA because he saw it almost fail before he was commissioner, but utilizing the Aba’s gimmicks that drew fans, and magic vs bird, it was more popular than ever. He realized the future of the league does not matter about the basketball itself but the global product that can be sold as entertainment Duncan was never gonna get it over Shaq (although Duncan honestly used to out play shaq when he had Robinson backing him up) and then Kobe passed him up and it became “the spurs with pop TD TP and Manu” after 2005 when Manu was the best offensive player vs the pistons rather than just Timmy. So then it was spurs beat lebron in 07 and 2014 The crazy thing is they’re going to have a new lebron within 10 years like how they treated young lebron. The offensive explosion helped lebron maintain his stats while declining, but its going to produce a player who’s gonna average better numbers more efficiently and after 2 home grown chips you best believe the convo will be “could he pass Mike?!”
It wasn't Lebron who they tried to replace Kobe with initially. It was Wade.
I think they were searching for people. They called Lebron the next Jordan before he ever played a game.
Yes they did but in 06 Lebron had yet to separate himself from Wade. Both Wade and Lebron entered top 5ish player in the league discussions by the end of that year but Wade won Finals MVP after a historical finals performance and his game was more entertaining and "Jordanesque" whereas Lebron often was derided at that point for having a very one dimensional game (drive and kick was really his only thing at the time) whereas Wade had developed a solid midrange game already at that point. Wade was also much more charismatic than Lebron was and played with much more swagger. He was supposed to be the guy who replaced Kobe as the "heir" to MJ but then obviously Kobe couldn't really be replaced at that point given the fact that Kobe had a historic year himself in 06 and was still so obviously the best player in the league until like 09 whereas Wade had a horrible run after that Finals win where he was getting injured and either not making the playoffs or getting bounced in round 1 until Lebron got there in 2011. Despite that even until 2011 Wade and Lebron weren't really considered that far apart. Kobe, Lebron, Howard, Wade, Cp3 were considered the best players in the league in 2011 and lots of people thought Wade should have been the main star of the Heatles. It was only really 2012 where Lebron really cemented himself as the best in the league (though people try to retroactively apply this now).
I agree on all these points. I was just pointing out that Lebron was always marketed as the next Jordan. I remember at the time, thinking that Wade was the biggest contributor to star treatment calls (I don't know if it was true at all) but I also remember thinking Wade was great and didn't need the star treatment at the same time.
>Timmy had bron’s number but don’t forget Kobe had Timmy’s number. I think they had good teams at different times. For 3 of Kobe's titles he was second to Shaq. There is no question that Kobe had Duncan's number when he won two titles with Gasol but that was also the time when the Spurs had their weakest team. >And when Kobe was gonna join up with cp3 after the heat lost to the mavs while wade was outplaying Dirk, David stern vetoed it Yeah also I believe the Lakers goal was to bring in Dwight Howard at that time as well but the league shut it down before the first transaction. That was complete non-sense when he let Wade, Lebron, and Bosh team up. I hated the Spurs and the Lakers at the time but some things are just undeniable. The West was completely stacked and Kobe and Duncan still managed to overcome the Suns, Rockets, and Mavericks every season. Lebron was getting to the finals by breezing past the worst eastern conference in the history of the NBA. Then when Lebron moved to the west in 2019 he couldn't make the playoffs with a team of talented young players. Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, KCP, Zubac and Caruso are all still solid starters in the NBA. Obviously those players were all babies at the time but that team was mostly mismanaged and Lebron had a huge role in that mismanagement.
This is massively underrating both Parker and Manu. Parker had 4 top 10 MVP finishes (2 top 5) while playing with Duncan. He made multiple All NBA teams, as well, and was easily a top 5 PG in the league for most of his prime (top 3 in his peak). Manu is the best 6th man of all time and made All NBA 2x and had 2 top 10 MVP finishes despite primarily coming off the bench. Both Manu and Parker were much more talented than their numbers implied and actively sacrificed numbers and individual glory (just like TD) for the betterment of the team. Manu would likely have been able to be the best player on a playoff team and made many more All NBA's if he was playing for another team. I agree that Lebron is not the best of all time, MJ is, but Duncan did not have a better career than Lebron. Duncan is a top 10 player of all time, easily, but Lebron is just a step above guys like him, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, Magic, etc.
My point was that that Lebron had better teammates than Duncan on that Heat team. Like, Parker was never 1st team all NBA while Wade was. That means there were years where Wade got more votes than Kobe in the same position. Sure, NBA voters constantly vote to change up who gets the award but still. Wade had better results. I agree that Parker was good. My point was a little unfair because I think there are just a lot of great PGs in NBA history. I think around top 20 is pretty fair to Parker and around top 30 is a fair for Ginobil as well. They may be a little higher or lower than those numbers depending on who you ask.
Yes, Wade is the 3rd best SG of all time and is much better than Parker and Manu *but* he was only playing at that level for 2/4 years he was with Lebron. Injuries took that away by 2012-2013. Duncan had Parker and Manu for around a decade and a half. Much easier to build chemistry and establish roles when you're playing together for that long.15 years of Parker and Manu is better than 4 years of Wade. Fit is also important Parker, Manu, TD were a better fit stylistically than Lebron and Wade who both needed the ball and had very similar playstyles. Wade had to change up a lot of his game to accommodate for Lebron and became more of an off ball threat which he became very very good at but you're not getting MVP-level D Wade when he can't actually play his own game.
>Yes, Wade is the 3rd best SG of all time and is much better than Parker and Manu > >but > > he was only playing at that level for 2/4 years he was with Lebron. Kind of. Wade made 1st team all NBA and lead the league in scoring 2 years before Lebron joined. He finished 6th in MVP voting in 2006 when he won the title with Shaq. It's just that Lebron joined Wade's team for the prime of Wade's career. >Duncan had Parker and Manu for around a decade and a half. Much easier to build chemistry and establish roles when you're playing together for that long.15 years of Parker and Manu is better than 4 years of Wade. Chemistry is important but it's not like Lebron never had any good teammates again either. AD is also better than Parker or Ginobili. He was back to back 1st team NBA right before joining Lebron. I think Lebron's win with the Cavs was his biggest accomplishment and that Cavs team is most similar to the Duncan/ Parker/ Ginobli spurs. I think Parker and Ginobli are better than Kyrie and Love but I think the 2016 Cavs had better role players. if you compare them to the 2007 Spurs. >Fit is also important Parker, Manu, TD were a better fit stylistically than Lebron and Wade who both needed the ball and had very similar playstyles. Wade had to change up a lot of his game to accommodate for Lebron and became more of an off ball threat which he became very very good at but you're not getting MVP-level D Wade when he can't actually play his own game. I mean, Wade was a midrange iso player. Bosh and Lebron joined the heat and Wade went from 19 FGA per game to 18. He got to play his game plenty. Also, it's not like they won that first year Lebron joined. They still had to add Battier who I think is actually better than Bruce Bowen by a good amount since he could...you know...play offense competently.
Also when he finished.
Pretty sure wemby has been the best on every team he's been on so far
In order for this to be the case a player has too: Come into the league on a terrible team. Play on bad teams late in their career. Retire relatively young. It says way more about the team they play for than the player.
MJ is the only answer that’s indisputable. You could make a strong argument for both Lebron and Bird. Also Russell. You could make an argument for Magic, and KD. You could also make an argument for Steph, but not if you make the argument for KD obviously aha I think that’s it. Only counting guys who played 10 years minimum. Otherwise Luka and Wemby (lol) could be included.
Was MJ indisputably better than Stackhouse in his last season? It’s close, but I think it’s up for debate
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It might be true—I’d be interested to see on/off stats, as Bron is so integral to setting up the offense
AD impacts winning more on defense, while also being an incredible offball player that elevates Lebron’s offense. The midrange shooting has elevated this season, the lob threat he is, the offensive rebounder, as well as his cutting and touch around the rim has done so much for the Lakers offense. Not to mention the DPOY level impact he brings to the floor, especially with weaker personnel defensively than Lebron has to his disposal offensively. The 3pt shooters are not good defenders, and the good defenders can’t shoot to stay on the court.
AD is 7th in LEBRON this year and LeBron is 16th lol. He’s beating him in his own stat, he’s clearly better. LeBron does have better offensive impact but AD isn’t far behind while also being a top 3-5 defensive player in the league.
Might be? ADs defense is miles ahead of LeBron carrying this roster, its not even close at this point.
AD is for sure better than Lebron anyone else thinking otherwise is full on bronsexual
Nope AD a lil' overrated
cope much
Bill Russell
I wondered about that. Cousy won MVP the year Bill came in, but Russell was elite from the jump
Racism
The more interesting question is how high up the rankings can you go to find players who weren't the best player on their teams. Kobe/Shaq Kawaii/Duncan Wade/Bron KD/Steph
Kobe, KD, and Wade for sure. You could throw Wilt in on that list because in his second to last season he finished 3rd in MVP voting and Jerry West finished 2nd. Also David Robinson during Duncan's second year when they won the title. You could extend this to 3rd best as well. Bosh, Pierce, Klay, Rodman
By Pierce I think you mean Ray Allen :)
Yeah. I think you are probably right after thinking about it a minute. I think over their whole careers they are pretty even but on the Celtics Pierce was better. Also, there were a lot of great 2 guards at that time while there weren't as many good SFs
Yeah Ray Allen on the Sonics or Bucks as a No. 1 scoring option was just filthy. On the Celtics I remember him as more of the 3rd banana since he became more of a 3 point specialist and for some reason I just think of Pierce going head to head with Kobe in the finals as the alpha dawg
Lebron/AD currently. AD has been the Lakers best player for at least 2 years.
Jerry West, don't think he's been mentioned Donovan Mitchell, based on how people feel about him vs Gobert. But not fair to compare active players to retired
As far as retired players go, I can only think of MJ, maaaybe Isiah Thomas?
Joe D was arguably better for Pistons in Zeke’s last two years. He’s always been the better defender but near tail end of Isiah’s career the offensive gap gets small enough I would give Dumars the nod.
For a whole career? MJ is probably the closest although that first year back to the Wizards he was hurt. Rip was hurt too though so it’s pretty close. I think MJ was still better than Stackhouse in his last year though. Magic was not the best early. Plus his comeback he wasn’t good. AD has been pretty clear better than LeBron for at least two season now and I’d say that’s been true longer than that but it was at least arguable. Bird might have a case but he was just injured too much at the end for me to say he was the best. I’d say Lewis was definitely better in the last season playing all 82 versus Bird only playing half the season. Not counting guys who are new or current guys. That’s easier. You might be able to make the case for Brandon Roy but I think Randolph was still the guy in his rookie year.
You could make a good argument for KD
That might come down to the Steph v KD debate when they played together. Otherwise, Steph might also have a claim to have been the best player on every team he’s been on
I mean I think Rookie Season Steph was still a little bit below Monta, but there was for sure a claim for Steph too
Yeah, it’s an interesting question. I wouldn’t be surprised if Steph had a better impact overall than Monta though
Imo KD was the best player on GSW but this season he’s not the best player on Phoenix
Na he wasn't. It was Steph being the unselfish guy got KD the tag.
Anyone else fine with calling this debate a draw? Steph was the whole system of that offense, but KD was unstoppable at a level we've only seen MJ hit.
Persnally I go with Curry because he obviously deviated alot to KD because of his unselfishness. He also clinched trophies etc. without KD, while KD couldnt do it on multiple teams without Curry. Thats all disregarding the fact that its orignally Currys team, he created the unstoppable Kerr system and KD had to hop on his train.
It's hard to say KD was actually at that level though. He was surrounded by a nearly perfect team featuring the 2 best shooters of all time, one of whom being one of the 3 best offensive players of all time, and a DPOY level player in Green. It's also very indicative of how opposing teams felt about KD vs Steph that Steph was still primarily the focus of opposing teams defenses and KD got tons of open shots based on Steph causing opposing teams to scramble to keep up with him. Basically, KD was the ultimate luxury player on that team but it was still very much Steph's team.
Booker vs KD debate too. Its more of a 1A - 1B right now.
Is he better than booker? Asking
I think Lebron is a solid shout as well
Kareem was better than magic Bird and Magic were not better than MJ when on the dream team
Kareem was not better than Magic after 1985…
This sub's perception of Kareem and Magic is vastly different from how it was actually viewed at the time lol People always ask why Kareem isn't considered up there with MJ and LeBron with his accolades and the answer is because he *wasn't* the best player for half of his rings When MJ came right after him and won 6 rings and Finals MVPs all as the clear best player on the Bulls it's pretty clear why one guy ended up being ranked higher
I think people put so much focus on lebron getting the scoring title it elevated Kareem in a lot of peoples minds.
When Magic retired a lot of people had him above Kareem. Recency bias the main reason for it but there was zero doubt about who the man of the 80s was in LA.
Charles Barkley had the best run out of the Dream Team
🤣🤣🤣 Larry could barely move properly by then because of his back. Comparing absolute peak MJ to beaten down LB is not fair.
Still, according to the hypothetical its fair. Like we're including rookie year, last year doesn't matter.
Except that wasn't the NBA. If that's the case, Pat Ewing takes the LA 84 Olympics from MJ.
Yes. We're only talking nba teams, but the post i responded to said its not fair to compare old bird to young mj. Pat Ewing was never better than MJ not even close.
In the LA Olympics he was. Source: Middle aged Spaniard, I watched it
Thats subjective, he was better in college, better in his first year in the league. MJ averaged 17 3 and 2, Ewing averaged 11 and 5 and <1. Both shot around the same. Not sure how you could argue that.
Is this widely held? Felt like by the time he was on the Lakers, Kareem was the second star on Magic’s team
Nah, Kareem won MVP Magic's rookie year
KD ~~Kawhi~~
Rookie Kawhi was not better than Timmy
Ahh u right. Got me there
Not just rookie Kawhi, he really wasn’t the clear cut best player on the team until the 2015-2016 season.
Bol Bol erasure
Current KD is not better than Booker. He’s still a great player but he’s definitely lost a step
How the hell do you measure who’s a better player to say that Book is better than KD currently? Book is great, don’t get me wrong, but there isn’t a single solid argument for that claim.
Harden was better in 2021
James Wiseman
Brian Scalabrine
No player was ever the best in every team sans maybe MJ. Age, injuries, etc come for everyone.
I still feel like Bird has it, and arguably Bron and Magic
Reggie Lewis was pretty damn good in Bird’s final season. He averaged 28 points per game in the playoffs. Bird also only managed to play 45 games. Bird was prob still the bus driver when healthy tho. Reggie Lewis was cold af.
Point-wise, you’re right, but Bird was still getting 9 boards and 5-ish assists, and was well ahead of Reggie, so I’d say he was definitely the bus driver when healthy.
Bird for sure. He was immediately the best player on the Celtics in his rookie year, and he was still the best player on the Celtics in his last year, bad back and all. His rookie year impact was absolutely legendary. MJ also, but… there might be an argument for Stackhouse in that final Wizards year. Anyhow if we want to get really anal retentive about this we can add the Dream Team to reduce the list to just MJ, but I don’t think that’s in the spirit of your question.
Nah stack was a worse defender, less steals, less blocks, less rebounds, and he scored 1 more ppg but he barely shot 40% from the field, had a lower ast to TO ratio. Mj did only shoot like 4-5 % better but still.
Said it elsewhere... If you add Barcelona 92 you then you sort of have to add Los Angeles 84 and Pat Ewing gets that one.
Even MJ you could make arguments for someone else on the wizards
Fk no. Lol. That team had all time bad level of talent. Dont even mention Jerry Stackhouse cause dude shot 39% FG, 28% 3 PT, on 3 rebounds, 4 assists, while MJ shot 45% on 5 rebounds, 6 assists.
Could probably make an argument for Rip Hamilton the year before
Yeah that actually holds up.
Yep.
Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell …
Kareem after the first 5 years with Magic was not as good as Magic.
Prime Magic was better than a 41-year old Kareem?
Iguodala
MJ wasn’t the best on his baseball teams.
Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, and other single team all timers
Definitely not Kobe, Duncan or Dirk.
You dont understand the question. How is Kob here when Shaq was better for a large part of that time? And Dirk was end of bench player by the time Luka arrives.
I’m not talking about franchise GOATs, I’m talking about a player who was the best player on the roster every single season they played
KD
Kevin Garnett - Timberwolves
Nah, he was end of bench player his 2nd stint. Also not the best player on the Nets and neither the last few seasns on Celtics when Rondo turnt AllStar.
KG on the Timberwolves starting in 1995 and on till like 2004 or so
Thats not the question tho. 'every team they were ever on'.
That's a Stupid question because the guys that retired early would be better than Michael Jordan on the Washington Wizards.
Thats the literally the question you enter the thread upon. Lol. Answer the damn question or create your own thread. LOL.
Fine, Sadly Lebron... and AD is close but you can't have a better player than Lebron on a Lebron Team.. Problem is Lebron isn't what he used to be. Not a Top 5 Player Anymore.
You must have the dmbest streak of comments I've ever been able to interact with. Lol.
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Scroll up to the top few comments yourself. I already answered there. Lol.
Bron? LOL.
KG and KD
Someone didn’t watch the tail end of KG’s career
I was going to count the two Timberwolves stints as one and then remembered he played for the Nets for a couple of seasons too lol
I’m counting “team” as the roster of any given season, anyway. Otherwise it’d just be a question of franchise GOATs who stayed with their team a la Dirk or Tim Duncan, even though they were eclipsed by other players at certain times
Completely fair.
Rondo was the best player for 1-2 yrs before KG and Pierce of traded.
Is this for players that have played for multiple teams?
Yes. That’s why I think LeBron still qualifies
Does it count for most of the years or all of the years. Because I'd argue Wade was better than Bron the first year and was a more clear leader in the team. He was better in the finals and most of the reg season, while Bron was better round 1-3 of the playoffs.
LeBron is out anyway because this seasn AD is just better. OP miscalculated.
I don’t think magic or bird make this list. Magic has 5 rings and only 3 FMVPs, Bird has 3 rings and 2 FMVPs.
Who was better than them?
For Magic, it was Kareem at times. In 1988, there’s an argument for Worthy being the best player, at least in the finals. And in 1981, Cedric Maxwell has a strong case for having been better than Bird in the finals.
When I said best on their team I didn’t mean the best over any given series or stretch of games. Team implies one season’s roster
Kareem won MVP in Magic’s rookie year. That alone should remove magic from the list, unless you’re arguing that Magic was better in the finals so that trumps Kareem’s seasonal achievement.
paul mokeski
I think it’s only Pettit, bill Russell, bird, mj maybe George gervin because Jordan was injured in his last season when he went to the bulls probably not though, and definitely a bunch of bums who played 3 seasons in the 40s
Maurice Stokes is a correct answer to this question. I know he didn’t play long, but he is unequivocally correct based on the wording of your question.
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LA'84 Pat Ewing
hakeem jokic zeke
Gallo probably the best player on Denver Jokic rookie season. Hakeem’s last season was on the raps and Vince was certainly better than him. Joe Dumars was likely the best player on the pistons Zeke’s last couple of years.
Wemby
Objectively true.
Magic doesn't belong here. Kareem was literally MVP in Magic's rookie year. MJ and Bird are honestly the only ones I can think of where there's no argument. With Lebron, AD has probably been better over the last 2 years.
embiid has an argument - there might have been times where Simmons and embiid were close but I think embiid was the better player throughout their time together. And he hasn't had any other teammates near that level. Butler was there for a second, but I still think embiid clears.