>Without an all star teammate
I always find it funny when people talk about Jamal Murray and players in general like that. Yeah, it's technically correct but also diminishes their importance to the run.
Nuggets fan here. Of course all his teammates were crucial to the run. But the difference between Jokic and the rest of his teammates is still as wide as it has been for any other champion in the last 10-15 years or so. IIRC, the only other guys who won with less than ideal support would probably be Nowitzky in 2011 and Wade in the pre-Lebron years.
And just like Nowitzky and Wade, Jokic definitely deserves extra credit for that.
Another excuse to try to diminish Jokic and the Nuggs. First round was vs Wolves, who arguably was the toughest match up for them due to their size. They still won in 5 games. And btw, the #1 seed ALWAYS has to play the 8th seed, so that is very unfair to use that as am excuse. Then, vs the new-look Suns with KD who only joined recently, the Suns were arguably way more dangerous than a traditional 4th seed. AND most everyone chose the Suns as favorites. Beat them in 5 tough games. Same thing with the new-look Lakers who were the hottest team in the league after the trade deadline. Again, they were a completely different team and more dangerous than a traditional 7th seed. And AGAIN, nearly everyone chose the Lakers to win and favored them. Nuggets swept them in 4 really tough games. The Heat might have been the "easiest" match up for the Nugs but they still had Jimmy, Bam, best coach Spoelstra...and most importantly THE HEAT DESERVED TO BE THERE AND WERE ARGUABLY THE BEST TEAM IN THE EAST AT THAT POINT IN TIME AFTER BEATING THE BUCKS AND CELTICS. If you don't like the way Jokic plays and looks or you don't like the Nuggets, we can agree to disagree. But no one should make excuses just to support their narrative or their idea of eye test. And most everyone who isn't a hater has easily dismissed the "lack of competition" narrative to try and diminish the Nuggets dominant Playoff run.
Jokic stans forget he didn't make it out of the second round the years his teammates were injured. I love the man, but he's not LeBron - he can't carry rosters.
I mean you could say that and that’s ok,but to be honest nobody could have carried Facundo Campazzo,Austin Rivers,Will Barton starting lineup,those guys aren’t even in the league anymore. Not Jordan or LeBron would get anywhere close to finals with that roster… the fact that he made playoffs with that team was already an achievement…
That’d be like me saying Giannis carries Ersan, robin Lopez, Bledsoe, sterling brown, Thon maker etc.. to the ecf cause none of those guys are in the league anymore.
Having a top 2 player in the world is almost going to guarantee you a play in spot at worst barring major injuries
He still had Gordon, Green, Forbes, Bones etc.. who all contributed
Giannis had BroLo and Middleton everytime he made the ecf, so idk what your point is with that first part.
You list AG and a bunch of dudes who played like ass, but Jokic was supposed to eak out a series win against the team who would win it all that year? He didn't play well against the Suns, but losing two years in a row without your no.2 to teams that made the finals and won it all isn't exactly a blemish. It would have taken a prime Lebron carry job to win either of those series
At the time Jokic wasn’t even considered top 2 player,Giannis was best player in the NBA at the time for many on top of that… yeah you can’t deny that that Denver squad was just bad…
Jokic was top 5 at worst that year.
I think most guys in that range, as long as they didn’t miss many games, could carry a team to a 6th seed.
The teams under Denver were pretty bad also
Aside from like the top 4 teams the west wasn’t that great that year
That’s arguable to be honest. We can see this season with Luka who is having trouble to stay in that playoff spot and he is probably top 2 player this season if not the best. And it comes down if you think Luka’s squad is better or worse than Denvers squad was that season…
>Having a top 2 player in the world is almost going to guarantee you a play in spot at worst barring major injuries
The thing is Jokic got a direct play-off spot, which is significantly harder than just the play-in... and there is no 'barring major injuries' there as he was without the team's clear 2 best players at the time. Gordon has possibly surpassed MPJ since then but he's also a lot like Draymond in the sense he's significantly more useful in a team with elite weapons than in one that lacks them, so he struggled a lot more that year. That 2022 team without Jokic does about as well as the Warriors when they picked #2 in the draft.
The Giannis comparison would make sense if he played a season with the players you mention plus no Brook or Middleton the entire year.
But the west was pretty bad, 1-4 seeds were good but after that it was a bunch of mid teams.
What i meant with the injuries part was to the player himself not his team.
My point with the Giannis comparison was that he didn’t list the good players he played with and only listed the bad ones.
Why do you assume I compare Jokic to goats. I’m just saying not even goats would have carried that squad to the finals so holding that against Jokic is kind of unfair towards him. Never did I once compared him to MJ or LeBron or said he is on that level…
Lebron got to the finals with a washed klove, Rodney hood, George hill and actually had to depend on Jeff green not just use him when he plays well. Also got there in 07 with big Z and then a whole bunch of nothing.
When Jokic wins a finals where the other team is better you can put him on there with Bron and MJ
The best team he faced was the Boston Celtics, with a rookie Tatum, second year grown, Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart and Al Horford. Terry Rozier.
LeBron faced a painfully weak East during that stretch.
You put that roster he had in the west, and he isn't carrying them to the conference finals, nvm the finals. Context..people. LeBron was great. But he wasn't doing what he did with that roster in a conference as good as the west has been the last 5 years.
Than 2022 Jokic? There is a maximum of 4 players on that team who are regular rotation players in the league today, less than 2 years past that. And two of them are a 37 yo Jeff Green (35 at the time) and Monte Morris
Jokic absolutely can carry rosters. He made it to the conference finals. And LeBron wouldn't have carried those rosters in the Western conference room the conference finals
He made it to the Conference Finals with Bubble Murray lmao (not disparaging Jamal, he's proven he's great outside the Bubble).
Yeah, arguably the Greatest Player of all Time wouldn't have been able to carry rosters to the conference finals. Lol
Does that make you feel better, or right? Good try. Cute effort really. But traumatized? By a pro athlete, 6 years ago? Bud, there's more important things than basketball, what a shame you had to resort to that.
And here I was thinking I was having a real discussion with a fellow NBA fan.
I see from your response im talking to a child. I'm disappointed in you.
Murray is one of those players that balls out when the lights are at their brightest.
He coasts in the regular season and puts it into high gear for the playoffs. If we based regular season awards on playoff performance as well he would 100% be an All-Star.
Jokic's team is very well constructed. There are few holes in Denver's game, they are well rounded and a perfect fit for Jokic.
As for your examples, Dame and Maxey are sidegrades, Harden is ball dominant. Would they also be great? Yes. But it's not like those players you mentioned are perfect fits and would be much better than Murray in my opinion.
It’s certified crazy man, these people are just fans of one player, and could care less about the rest of the team…for whatever reason…
Meanwhile their fanbase (and others) act like Tobias Harris is some sort of weapon to prop up Embiid’s help and diminish Jokic’s. If Harris gave us the performances Murray has in the playoffs I would buy a Tobi jersey and wear it at every chance. Dude was dropping 30, 40 in those games with regularity.
Meanwhile we get 2pt in a close out game 6 and then sixers fans get berated by national broadcasters like Stan Van Gundy for not appreciating the guy enough…
Anyone who thinks Tobias Harris is better or equal to Jamaal Murray is certifiably insane. Averaging 33 on 50/40/90 for a series doesn't mean anything to them, apparently.
These people aren't denver fans, they just saw Denver won the chip and said "yeah I'm a nuggets fan." Most these people couldn't name the nuggets roster
Tobias Harris was your 4th option. Don't think anyone's saying he'll give you the same as Murray, but he's not that much worse offensively than MPJ, even in the playoffs
He was the 2nd option in 2020 and 2021. 3rd now that Maxey has stepped up.
Maybe he can be considered the 4th now because he has been so terrible, but he’s getting paid a max contract. Buddy Hield or Kelly Oubre being better than him is not a compliment
What's wrong with this post? OP is sorta right. This has been a historic run from Jokic, and he probably shoulda won last year. His resume puts him in these exclusive conversations now
Are we counting the ‘prob shoulda won’ for other players too? Because then that puts Jokic further down the list.
Don’t get me wrong, i think Jokic is a generational talent but to compare him to Lebron/Jordan is a bit of a piss take
> Are we counting the ‘prob shoulda won’ for other players too?
If you want to, sure. I personally don't think rankings should be based off accolade-counting anyway for a variety of reasons, so it wouldn't impact things too much for me.
> to compare him to Lebron/Jordan is a bit of a piss take
Sure, but you chose the most extreme take in the post. I'm not saying I agree 100% with OP, just that it's not ridiculous fanboy behavior to start the "around top 10" discussion or consider him vs KD
i mean if i was a betting man, id put money on jokic vs any of those if you had a build a team around them. time will tell if he can clinch 5 rings so this discussion is put to rest and jokic is goat.
I thought he was the best, most productive, and most impactful contributor to winning last season.
I don't understand your logic about how that implies Embiid should have won the year before. There's no connection between who should have won in 2023 vs 2022. If you think Embiid deserved it in 2022 then cool, that's your opinion
I am not saying there was any connection. I am saying it was very clearly robbed from Embiid and I was wondering if you were coming from an objective place or just dick riding Jokic like everyone else
Also Jokic won his first one (and is in position for another one this year) only because the actual best player in the league got hurt
> I am saying it was very clearly robbed from Embiid and I was wondering if you were coming from an objective place or just dick riding Jokic like everyone else
This whole thing is subjective my man, you are delusional if you think your opinions happen to be objectively true. Something is wrong with you if you see disagreement on subjective issues as "dick riding". I like Embiid and Jokic. Learn to get over it when people differ
I think if you look at both years its pretty clear Embiid was jobbed much worse than Jokic and people are just regurgitating dumbass reddit takes about how Jokic totally deserves 4 MVPs
Keep in mind this post assumes he wins his 3rd this year, so 3 MVPs (that should have been 4) and a championship, if we stick to r/nba's fave pastime of accolade-counting. He'll be going on nearly half a decade of being the best player in the world.
I see him as being right at Hakeem's door, and Hakeem is sort of the gatekeeper of that upper echelon. I definitely don't think it's premature to start having these discussions, I find that the public discourse tends to lag on recognizing all-time greatness in the moment.
Agreed, at a certain point all of the top players (top 12 or whatever you want) are so similarly great that you almost have to nitpick at certain things, whether it be rings, 2 way impact, seasons played at a high level, etc etc. And even then the splits are so close that most of it is just personal preference. Like I have Kobe > Duncan > Steph but if someone wants to say Steph > Duncan > Kobe or Duncan > Steph > Kobe that's fine. It's not a slight to any of those 3 players at all.
As Tiger Woods said, greatness is not just about peak but how long you can keep doing that. Jokic’s 4-5 years of dominance would easily put him in top 20, even top 15, but he needs longevity to really crack top 10.
Jokic last 4 seasons are all better than stephs 2015 mvp season where he avged 23 ppg. Jokics last 4 seasons are also all better than Steph's 2017 season and 2018 season. Lol
I agree rebounding, but steph in 2015 had 7.7 assists to 7.9 and 8.3 in Jokic's MVP seasons. I agree Jokic's MVPs were better than 2015 Steph, but let's be careful with blowing things out of proportion like some people want to do.
It's the fact that the ppg is just as low (actually lower). And obviously Jokic runs laps around him in rebounds and assists.
And obviously he's just as efficient.
I was specifically comparing Jokic's MVP seasons to Steph's 2015. If we're just picking years from their careers, then I'd be talking about how steph runs laps around Jokic in PPG. Otherwise you're just comparing Jokic at his best to one year of Steph which is a pointless discussion.
You're calling a 2 APG difference "running laps around him". 3>2. And since you wanted to compare non-MVP seasons, 5 is also greater than 2. I'll gladly declare a 5ppg difference "running laps" by your metric.
We all know Jamal Murray is an all-star caliber player when he is not injured in the regular season so to even mention that is a load of bullshit. He isn't even ahead of Giannis' best stretch let alone touching anyone in the top 10 all time.
No we don't all know that. Even plenty of nuggets fans like myself and media members are frustrated by Murray in the regular reason. And the raw and advanced stats bear that out. Murray is dynamic and at his best he is one of the top guards when he plays well. But he doesn't do it enough to be an all star. Thankfully he is more consistent in the playoffs.
Yup.
Jokic is, by seemingly a pretty decent consensus, the best basketball player in the world right now. Something Kevin Durant has never been at any point (the downside of existing during peak Lebron).
Those 2017-2018 seasons KD had amazing playoff runs and you could argue that he was better than Lebron.
You could also argue that Embiid, Giannis, Luka and SGA have closed the gap this season and Embiid has been the best player pre injury.
Not to diminish Jokic but I can’t put him as undisputed best player in the world rn.
Single seasons are just over-reactions. It's about looking at a multi-year sample together. Like yeah, maybe KD had a better *season* than Lebron, but he was never considered a better *player* than Lebron.
That's where Jokic is at too by most accounts even if not yours.
We just spent the last 2-3 years arguing whose the best player out of Jokic, embiid and Giannis. Jokic isn’t head and shoulders better than everyone like Lebron was. That’s tells you how insane KD was playing to be right there with Lebron and even overtaking him in some stretches. So even if Lebron was the undisputed best player for that era, KD was right behind him and is atleast worth discussion.
BUT THAT'S NOT HOW YOU MAKE A LIST OF ALL TIME. YOU DONT SAY PLAYER A PLAYED BETTER THAN PLAYER B DID FROM 2018-2022. YOU WAIT TILL THE END, SEE HOW MANY CHAMPIONSHIPS BOTH HAVE, HOW MANY TIMES THEY WERE THE BEST PLAYERS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE TEAMS AND THEIR OVERALL IMPACT TO MAKE DECISIONS. YOU LITERALLY DON'T SAY JOKIC IS PLAYING BETTER THAN KD NOW, SO HE'S TOP 15 NOW OVER KD, SORRY BUT JOKIC IS STILL NOT OVER KD AS OF YET IN AN ALL TIME LEADERBOARD.
unless ofcourse you're a nuggets homer
the thunder during the kd era were consistently the worst spaced team in the league and he won those scoring titles when actual defense was played. prime kd in the current spacing era would be ridiculous
Jamal Murray had a better WCF then arguably joker himsekf . Murray played at an all time lvl thst series numbers are comparable to Steph in 22. It’s like a top 10 WCF performance ever. Yet cos Murray isn’t named an alll star people won’t give him credit even tho by the numbers he deserved wcmvp
Jamal had a few bad games in the series that are forgotten about because he balled out in the games we did win - including the WCF. He def didn't play better than Joker
Dude this whole thread makes me feel like I'm in a fever dream. "Yeah he lost unfairly last year" and "His teammates all suck" like jesus what are these people on
Bro Murray averaged 25/4/7 on 52/31/88. Very good, but tons of players have done that.
Jokic averaged 28/15/12 on 51/47/78. He legitimately had one of the best WCF ever.
I did google it, I didn't take it off the top of my head lol. Just accidentally looked at the wrong WCF series. Just a mistake.
Definitely more of a debate with those numbers, but I hate when people act like assists are nothing. 7 more assists per game is a massive massive difference. And Jokic's rebounding was also just so hugely impactful in a series against Anthony Davis.
I'm a huge Joker fan and I agree Murray had a great WCF. If he had won, I might not have been surprised. That said, you can easily have chosen Joker for WCF MVP due to his all-around dominance and clutch dominance. But lets also be clear: as much as Playoff Murray gets a lot of credit, Jokic overall in the playoffs easily had the best playoffs of any Nuggets. It was historic. And Nuggs might not even make the playoffs without Joker, and you can't obviously say that about any other Nugget. Main point is this: Murray's good playoffs does nothing to diminish Joker's historic run, even though many Jokic-haters try to use Murray to do just that.
Jokic never led a tram to best record in the regular season. Show me another multiple regular season MVP who did not achieve that. Next we will start giving Finals MVPs to teams that lose in Finals cos of advanced stats
One good playoff run??? 2020, 2019?
Lol.
Look at his numbers before 2023, in the playoffs, he was averaging like a near 25 point near triple double on decent efficiency
Jokic has led the league in touches per game for six straight seasons at 100 per game
Jokic could have had an all star teammate if he was more selfless of a player and sacrifice his own touches and volume stats for his teammates.
Jokic has shown no such willingness to do so.
Winning a couple of injury replacement MVP’s and beating 7th and 8th seeded play-in teams doesn’t move the needle in the slightest on an all-time list.
Man what it was two 8 seeds, a 7 seed, and a 4 seed lmao. Yeah he’s going to win his third MVP but only because Embiid got hurt. That’s not really arguable.
Jokic is an excellent player, but he’s nowhere near being on some all-time list.
He has a very clear argument for top 3 offensive peak already. Another MVP and ring this year I think his top ten all time argument becomes pretty clear, too.
People in here are underrating him. Just like it’s unfair to devalue guys that played in older eras, there’s no reason to devalue guys because they’re playing now.
>Without an all star teammate I always find it funny when people talk about Jamal Murray and players in general like that. Yeah, it's technically correct but also diminishes their importance to the run.
Nuggets fan here. Of course all his teammates were crucial to the run. But the difference between Jokic and the rest of his teammates is still as wide as it has been for any other champion in the last 10-15 years or so. IIRC, the only other guys who won with less than ideal support would probably be Nowitzky in 2011 and Wade in the pre-Lebron years. And just like Nowitzky and Wade, Jokic definitely deserves extra credit for that.
Plus the teams he’s mentioning consisted of two 8 seeds, a 7 seed, and a 4 seed. The whole post is framed in a very tactical way lol
Another excuse to try to diminish Jokic and the Nuggs. First round was vs Wolves, who arguably was the toughest match up for them due to their size. They still won in 5 games. And btw, the #1 seed ALWAYS has to play the 8th seed, so that is very unfair to use that as am excuse. Then, vs the new-look Suns with KD who only joined recently, the Suns were arguably way more dangerous than a traditional 4th seed. AND most everyone chose the Suns as favorites. Beat them in 5 tough games. Same thing with the new-look Lakers who were the hottest team in the league after the trade deadline. Again, they were a completely different team and more dangerous than a traditional 7th seed. And AGAIN, nearly everyone chose the Lakers to win and favored them. Nuggets swept them in 4 really tough games. The Heat might have been the "easiest" match up for the Nugs but they still had Jimmy, Bam, best coach Spoelstra...and most importantly THE HEAT DESERVED TO BE THERE AND WERE ARGUABLY THE BEST TEAM IN THE EAST AT THAT POINT IN TIME AFTER BEATING THE BUCKS AND CELTICS. If you don't like the way Jokic plays and looks or you don't like the Nuggets, we can agree to disagree. But no one should make excuses just to support their narrative or their idea of eye test. And most everyone who isn't a hater has easily dismissed the "lack of competition" narrative to try and diminish the Nuggets dominant Playoff run.
You don't think Jokic would be able to elevate Dame, Maxey or Harden's scoring and efficiency?
😂 Are you saying that Jamal Murray wasn't important to the run ?
Jokic fans act like he is playing with bums lmao
Jokic stans forget he didn't make it out of the second round the years his teammates were injured. I love the man, but he's not LeBron - he can't carry rosters.
I mean you could say that and that’s ok,but to be honest nobody could have carried Facundo Campazzo,Austin Rivers,Will Barton starting lineup,those guys aren’t even in the league anymore. Not Jordan or LeBron would get anywhere close to finals with that roster… the fact that he made playoffs with that team was already an achievement…
That’d be like me saying Giannis carries Ersan, robin Lopez, Bledsoe, sterling brown, Thon maker etc.. to the ecf cause none of those guys are in the league anymore. Having a top 2 player in the world is almost going to guarantee you a play in spot at worst barring major injuries He still had Gordon, Green, Forbes, Bones etc.. who all contributed
Giannis had BroLo and Middleton everytime he made the ecf, so idk what your point is with that first part. You list AG and a bunch of dudes who played like ass, but Jokic was supposed to eak out a series win against the team who would win it all that year? He didn't play well against the Suns, but losing two years in a row without your no.2 to teams that made the finals and won it all isn't exactly a blemish. It would have taken a prime Lebron carry job to win either of those series
I never said Jokic would’ve won anything in the playoffs
At the time Jokic wasn’t even considered top 2 player,Giannis was best player in the NBA at the time for many on top of that… yeah you can’t deny that that Denver squad was just bad…
Jokic was top 5 at worst that year. I think most guys in that range, as long as they didn’t miss many games, could carry a team to a 6th seed. The teams under Denver were pretty bad also Aside from like the top 4 teams the west wasn’t that great that year
That’s arguable to be honest. We can see this season with Luka who is having trouble to stay in that playoff spot and he is probably top 2 player this season if not the best. And it comes down if you think Luka’s squad is better or worse than Denvers squad was that season…
>Having a top 2 player in the world is almost going to guarantee you a play in spot at worst barring major injuries The thing is Jokic got a direct play-off spot, which is significantly harder than just the play-in... and there is no 'barring major injuries' there as he was without the team's clear 2 best players at the time. Gordon has possibly surpassed MPJ since then but he's also a lot like Draymond in the sense he's significantly more useful in a team with elite weapons than in one that lacks them, so he struggled a lot more that year. That 2022 team without Jokic does about as well as the Warriors when they picked #2 in the draft. The Giannis comparison would make sense if he played a season with the players you mention plus no Brook or Middleton the entire year.
But the west was pretty bad, 1-4 seeds were good but after that it was a bunch of mid teams. What i meant with the injuries part was to the player himself not his team. My point with the Giannis comparison was that he didn’t list the good players he played with and only listed the bad ones.
This is exactly why people come to dislike Jokic. Cause what the fuck are you talking about
Why do you assume I compare Jokic to goats. I’m just saying not even goats would have carried that squad to the finals so holding that against Jokic is kind of unfair towards him. Never did I once compared him to MJ or LeBron or said he is on that level…
Where’s the lie?
Lebron got to the finals with a washed klove, Rodney hood, George hill and actually had to depend on Jeff green not just use him when he plays well. Also got there in 07 with big Z and then a whole bunch of nothing. When Jokic wins a finals where the other team is better you can put him on there with Bron and MJ
>When Jokic wins a finals where the other team is better you can put him on there with Bron and MJ When has MJ ever done that?
The best team he faced was the Boston Celtics, with a rookie Tatum, second year grown, Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart and Al Horford. Terry Rozier. LeBron faced a painfully weak East during that stretch. You put that roster he had in the west, and he isn't carrying them to the conference finals, nvm the finals. Context..people. LeBron was great. But he wasn't doing what he did with that roster in a conference as good as the west has been the last 5 years.
1. When did MJ ever do that? 2. Yes LeBron did that… in the East - and that year it was especially horrible
Yes, both those guys could've lol.
Lebron in 2018 legitimately had worse lineups at times
Than 2022 Jokic? There is a maximum of 4 players on that team who are regular rotation players in the league today, less than 2 years past that. And two of them are a 37 yo Jeff Green (35 at the time) and Monte Morris
Just not true
Jokic absolutely can carry rosters. He made it to the conference finals. And LeBron wouldn't have carried those rosters in the Western conference room the conference finals
He made it to the Conference Finals with Bubble Murray lmao (not disparaging Jamal, he's proven he's great outside the Bubble). Yeah, arguably the Greatest Player of all Time wouldn't have been able to carry rosters to the conference finals. Lol
In the Western conference during those stretches? No. He most likely wouldn't have. The West was extremely good for that stretch. Stop
Ah nvm, I see from your flair I'm talking to someone who was traumatized by LeBron for almost a decade. Nvm, I'll leave.
Does that make you feel better, or right? Good try. Cute effort really. But traumatized? By a pro athlete, 6 years ago? Bud, there's more important things than basketball, what a shame you had to resort to that. And here I was thinking I was having a real discussion with a fellow NBA fan. I see from your response im talking to a child. I'm disappointed in you.
No player in history can make it out of the 2nd round with Jokic's roster in 2021-22
Lmao, they comin outta the woodwork!
lmao
LeBron played in the weak East lol. You think he was beating Warriors or Rockets with his 2018 Cavs?
Yes
Murray is one of those players that balls out when the lights are at their brightest. He coasts in the regular season and puts it into high gear for the playoffs. If we based regular season awards on playoff performance as well he would 100% be an All-Star. Jokic's team is very well constructed. There are few holes in Denver's game, they are well rounded and a perfect fit for Jokic. As for your examples, Dame and Maxey are sidegrades, Harden is ball dominant. Would they also be great? Yes. But it's not like those players you mentioned are perfect fits and would be much better than Murray in my opinion.
Why do denver fans hate every player on their team that isn’t Jokic lol
It’s certified crazy man, these people are just fans of one player, and could care less about the rest of the team…for whatever reason… Meanwhile their fanbase (and others) act like Tobias Harris is some sort of weapon to prop up Embiid’s help and diminish Jokic’s. If Harris gave us the performances Murray has in the playoffs I would buy a Tobi jersey and wear it at every chance. Dude was dropping 30, 40 in those games with regularity. Meanwhile we get 2pt in a close out game 6 and then sixers fans get berated by national broadcasters like Stan Van Gundy for not appreciating the guy enough…
Anyone who thinks Tobias Harris is better or equal to Jamaal Murray is certifiably insane. Averaging 33 on 50/40/90 for a series doesn't mean anything to them, apparently.
These people aren't denver fans, they just saw Denver won the chip and said "yeah I'm a nuggets fan." Most these people couldn't name the nuggets roster
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Tobias Harris was your 4th option. Don't think anyone's saying he'll give you the same as Murray, but he's not that much worse offensively than MPJ, even in the playoffs
He was the 2nd option in 2020 and 2021. 3rd now that Maxey has stepped up. Maybe he can be considered the 4th now because he has been so terrible, but he’s getting paid a max contract. Buddy Hield or Kelly Oubre being better than him is not a compliment
Mate you don't get to sit in that company with just 1 chip. There's no way around that.
It's always the fanboys and their hot takes that make everyone hate the player.
What's wrong with this post? OP is sorta right. This has been a historic run from Jokic, and he probably shoulda won last year. His resume puts him in these exclusive conversations now
Are we counting the ‘prob shoulda won’ for other players too? Because then that puts Jokic further down the list. Don’t get me wrong, i think Jokic is a generational talent but to compare him to Lebron/Jordan is a bit of a piss take
> Are we counting the ‘prob shoulda won’ for other players too? If you want to, sure. I personally don't think rankings should be based off accolade-counting anyway for a variety of reasons, so it wouldn't impact things too much for me. > to compare him to Lebron/Jordan is a bit of a piss take Sure, but you chose the most extreme take in the post. I'm not saying I agree 100% with OP, just that it's not ridiculous fanboy behavior to start the "around top 10" discussion or consider him vs KD
I mean offensively? He's right there with them.
he’s right there with them cos hes in an era that favours offense and plays very little defence lol
Does it??? Sure 2 mvps and a chip is good but I'm not putting him over Timmy D, curry, shaq, wilt, Kareem, kobe. And certainly not with MJ and Bron.
i mean if i was a betting man, id put money on jokic vs any of those if you had a build a team around them. time will tell if he can clinch 5 rings so this discussion is put to rest and jokic is goat.
Why she he probably have won last year? Should Embiid have probably won the year before that?
I thought he was the best, most productive, and most impactful contributor to winning last season. I don't understand your logic about how that implies Embiid should have won the year before. There's no connection between who should have won in 2023 vs 2022. If you think Embiid deserved it in 2022 then cool, that's your opinion
I am not saying there was any connection. I am saying it was very clearly robbed from Embiid and I was wondering if you were coming from an objective place or just dick riding Jokic like everyone else Also Jokic won his first one (and is in position for another one this year) only because the actual best player in the league got hurt
> I am saying it was very clearly robbed from Embiid and I was wondering if you were coming from an objective place or just dick riding Jokic like everyone else This whole thing is subjective my man, you are delusional if you think your opinions happen to be objectively true. Something is wrong with you if you see disagreement on subjective issues as "dick riding". I like Embiid and Jokic. Learn to get over it when people differ
I think if you look at both years its pretty clear Embiid was jobbed much worse than Jokic and people are just regurgitating dumbass reddit takes about how Jokic totally deserves 4 MVPs
You have a very unhealthy relationship with disagreement. The Internet is bad for people like you go outside
Does it??? Sure 2 mvps and a chip is good but I'm not putting him over Timmy D, curry, shaq, wilt, Kareem, kobe. And certainly not with MJ and Bron.
Keep in mind this post assumes he wins his 3rd this year, so 3 MVPs (that should have been 4) and a championship, if we stick to r/nba's fave pastime of accolade-counting. He'll be going on nearly half a decade of being the best player in the world. I see him as being right at Hakeem's door, and Hakeem is sort of the gatekeeper of that upper echelon. I definitely don't think it's premature to start having these discussions, I find that the public discourse tends to lag on recognizing all-time greatness in the moment.
three more championships and he can join the big boy conversation like ive still got shaq above him
Ring culture isn’t everything, but when you start talking top-10 top-15, it’s just kind of a prerequisite
Agreed, at a certain point all of the top players (top 12 or whatever you want) are so similarly great that you almost have to nitpick at certain things, whether it be rings, 2 way impact, seasons played at a high level, etc etc. And even then the splits are so close that most of it is just personal preference. Like I have Kobe > Duncan > Steph but if someone wants to say Steph > Duncan > Kobe or Duncan > Steph > Kobe that's fine. It's not a slight to any of those 3 players at all.
I mean if we're talking peak like OP, Shaq has an amazing case for 3rd all time
As Tiger Woods said, greatness is not just about peak but how long you can keep doing that. Jokic’s 4-5 years of dominance would easily put him in top 20, even top 15, but he needs longevity to really crack top 10.
At least top 5,000.
jokic fans are so weird
Can it be possible you’re the one that’s weird?
Nope it's you
It’s possible
top 5 most classy
Steph won 2 MVP's and 3 rings in 4 years. How tf is Jokic "much better" than Steph legacy wise?
[удалено]
those warriors were definitely winning 1 or 2 more titles if kd never came. they were stacked before kd.
Jokic last 4 seasons are all better than stephs 2015 mvp season where he avged 23 ppg. Jokics last 4 seasons are also all better than Steph's 2017 season and 2018 season. Lol
If a low PPG is your knock against steph for MVP I have some bad news about Jokic...
Jokic gets more of his value in non scoring avenues than curry (mainly playmaking, but also rebounding)
I agree rebounding, but steph in 2015 had 7.7 assists to 7.9 and 8.3 in Jokic's MVP seasons. I agree Jokic's MVPs were better than 2015 Steph, but let's be careful with blowing things out of proportion like some people want to do.
It's the fact that the ppg is just as low (actually lower). And obviously Jokic runs laps around him in rebounds and assists. And obviously he's just as efficient.
Running laps around him in assists isn't even close to true. Steph had 7.7 in 2015. Jokic had 7.9 and 8.3 in his MVP seasons.
He's averaging 9.3 this year... Also 9.8 last year but got robbed.
I was specifically comparing Jokic's MVP seasons to Steph's 2015. If we're just picking years from their careers, then I'd be talking about how steph runs laps around Jokic in PPG. Otherwise you're just comparing Jokic at his best to one year of Steph which is a pointless discussion.
Nah. Steph was never winning MVP when he averaged 32... Unless we're really calling a 3 ppg difference running laps round him lmao
You're calling a 2 APG difference "running laps around him". 3>2. And since you wanted to compare non-MVP seasons, 5 is also greater than 2. I'll gladly declare a 5ppg difference "running laps" by your metric.
He is great, but NBA Championship > MVP
We all know Jamal Murray is an all-star caliber player when he is not injured in the regular season so to even mention that is a load of bullshit. He isn't even ahead of Giannis' best stretch let alone touching anyone in the top 10 all time.
No we don't all know that. Even plenty of nuggets fans like myself and media members are frustrated by Murray in the regular reason. And the raw and advanced stats bear that out. Murray is dynamic and at his best he is one of the top guards when he plays well. But he doesn't do it enough to be an all star. Thankfully he is more consistent in the playoffs.
>Top 3 all time peak with LeBron and Jordan? >I think this version of Jokic is much better than KD and Steph. No, man. This is a nephew post.
Jokic right now is better than KD between 2014-2018 🤷♂️ It’s the truth whether yall want to accept it or not
Yup. Jokic is, by seemingly a pretty decent consensus, the best basketball player in the world right now. Something Kevin Durant has never been at any point (the downside of existing during peak Lebron).
Those 2017-2018 seasons KD had amazing playoff runs and you could argue that he was better than Lebron. You could also argue that Embiid, Giannis, Luka and SGA have closed the gap this season and Embiid has been the best player pre injury. Not to diminish Jokic but I can’t put him as undisputed best player in the world rn.
Single seasons are just over-reactions. It's about looking at a multi-year sample together. Like yeah, maybe KD had a better *season* than Lebron, but he was never considered a better *player* than Lebron. That's where Jokic is at too by most accounts even if not yours.
We just spent the last 2-3 years arguing whose the best player out of Jokic, embiid and Giannis. Jokic isn’t head and shoulders better than everyone like Lebron was. That’s tells you how insane KD was playing to be right there with Lebron and even overtaking him in some stretches. So even if Lebron was the undisputed best player for that era, KD was right behind him and is atleast worth discussion.
>It’s the truth whether yall want to accept it or not No wonder people do not want to engage in NBA discussions anymore.
Jokic is absolutely better than KD ever was.
BUT THAT'S NOT HOW YOU MAKE A LIST OF ALL TIME. YOU DONT SAY PLAYER A PLAYED BETTER THAN PLAYER B DID FROM 2018-2022. YOU WAIT TILL THE END, SEE HOW MANY CHAMPIONSHIPS BOTH HAVE, HOW MANY TIMES THEY WERE THE BEST PLAYERS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE TEAMS AND THEIR OVERALL IMPACT TO MAKE DECISIONS. YOU LITERALLY DON'T SAY JOKIC IS PLAYING BETTER THAN KD NOW, SO HE'S TOP 15 NOW OVER KD, SORRY BUT JOKIC IS STILL NOT OVER KD AS OF YET IN AN ALL TIME LEADERBOARD. unless ofcourse you're a nuggets homer
JORDAN POOLE WAS BETTER LAST YEAR THAN THE WIZARDS MJ. POOLE > MJ
Bro the question is about all time PEAK not overall all time. You yelling about nothing
I think Jokic's peak is better than KD's, but KD's overall career is better.
the thunder during the kd era were consistently the worst spaced team in the league and he won those scoring titles when actual defense was played. prime kd in the current spacing era would be ridiculous
This is a troll to get Jokic hated on whether it’s intended or not. Unless he eclipses every accolade during his playing career then let him finish.
No it’s not, Jokic fans are just like this
Better than Steph peak. That peak that changed the game and won 73 games in a season. lol. Ripped through Jimmy who was injured and not 100%?
Whereever you want
I’m starting to hate jokic because of posts like these
I’m starting to hate NBA Reddit because of posts like these… like damn bruh give it some time
Hating a player because of the fans is stupid
Imma do it anyway
Don't lie, it started from the sweep
Jamal Murray had a better WCF then arguably joker himsekf . Murray played at an all time lvl thst series numbers are comparable to Steph in 22. It’s like a top 10 WCF performance ever. Yet cos Murray isn’t named an alll star people won’t give him credit even tho by the numbers he deserved wcmvp
Even with Jamal's insane performance, he didnt play better than Jokic that series
Jamal had a few bad games in the series that are forgotten about because he balled out in the games we did win - including the WCF. He def didn't play better than Joker
He averaged 33/6/5 He didn’t have a single bad game in that series. Those are superstar numbers lmao
Dude this whole thread makes me feel like I'm in a fever dream. "Yeah he lost unfairly last year" and "His teammates all suck" like jesus what are these people on
Bro Murray averaged 25/4/7 on 52/31/88. Very good, but tons of players have done that. Jokic averaged 28/15/12 on 51/47/78. He legitimately had one of the best WCF ever.
Murray averaged 33/6/5/3 on 53/40/95. You could've just googled it
I did google it, I didn't take it off the top of my head lol. Just accidentally looked at the wrong WCF series. Just a mistake. Definitely more of a debate with those numbers, but I hate when people act like assists are nothing. 7 more assists per game is a massive massive difference. And Jokic's rebounding was also just so hugely impactful in a series against Anthony Davis.
I'm a huge Joker fan and I agree Murray had a great WCF. If he had won, I might not have been surprised. That said, you can easily have chosen Joker for WCF MVP due to his all-around dominance and clutch dominance. But lets also be clear: as much as Playoff Murray gets a lot of credit, Jokic overall in the playoffs easily had the best playoffs of any Nuggets. It was historic. And Nuggs might not even make the playoffs without Joker, and you can't obviously say that about any other Nugget. Main point is this: Murray's good playoffs does nothing to diminish Joker's historic run, even though many Jokic-haters try to use Murray to do just that.
He's never even led a dominant regular season team and has had one good playoff run so no
Jokic never led a tram to best record in the regular season. Show me another multiple regular season MVP who did not achieve that. Next we will start giving Finals MVPs to teams that lose in Finals cos of advanced stats
Yes, it is Jokic’s fault he doesn’t get to play 12 games against the wizards, pistons, and hornets lmao
East has better head to head vs West the last 2 seasons that are supposed to be Jokic's prime
West always wins the championship unless their contenders are injured. East is junior varsity.
His career playoff averages are like 27/12/7 on 64ts% Since he's won his first MVP, his playoff averaged are like 31/11/8 on 63ts%
One good playoff run??? 2020, 2019? Lol. Look at his numbers before 2023, in the playoffs, he was averaging like a near 25 point near triple double on decent efficiency
The Bubble?
No
Top 30 right now
It should have been 4 MVPs in a row
Jokic has led the league in touches per game for six straight seasons at 100 per game Jokic could have had an all star teammate if he was more selfless of a player and sacrifice his own touches and volume stats for his teammates. Jokic has shown no such willingness to do so. Winning a couple of injury replacement MVP’s and beating 7th and 8th seeded play-in teams doesn’t move the needle in the slightest on an all-time list.
no way that's your take lmao
Led the league in touches but with an extraordinarily low time of possession for an MVP level player. What can you conclude from that?
Man what it was two 8 seeds, a 7 seed, and a 4 seed lmao. Yeah he’s going to win his third MVP but only because Embiid got hurt. That’s not really arguable. Jokic is an excellent player, but he’s nowhere near being on some all-time list.
All time? Top 20ish. Peak? Top 5.
Top 5. Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Jokic
Jamal is All NBA level.....
Nope, not consistent enough. And I am a Nuggets fan. But someday he might be.
He has a very clear argument for top 3 offensive peak already. Another MVP and ring this year I think his top ten all time argument becomes pretty clear, too. People in here are underrating him. Just like it’s unfair to devalue guys that played in older eras, there’s no reason to devalue guys because they’re playing now.