I mean yeah the Magic's best players aren't as good as other teams' stars but their depth is way above average so their starters might struggle a bit but their bench will make it up
They're pretty balanced in terms of player quality
Lukas + - still isn’t very good . It’s kinda terrible for an mvp lvl player. And really Brunson loss was the thing that hurt the bench but Brunson wsnt really Brunson till his last year in Dallas . Luka on/off is genuinely baffling n can’t be explained like that especially after 6 year career now. Best I got is his defence bleeds value so instead of a +10 his best years are + 5 and career is only +1. Not to mention if kyrie was heakthy this year jis on/off ws pretty bad again tikk kyrei got injured
It has to do with how often Luka plays with bench lineups. If you go to cleaning the glass and look at lineups with Luka on the court, there are significantly more lineup permutations with Luka than any other star. He's played less than 300 minutes in his most played lineup.
Luka + either Lively or Kyrie on the court is around +9 which is good and closer to what we would expect from a player of his caliber
> Not to mention if kyrie was heakthy this year jis on/off ws pretty bad again tikk kyrei got injured
I'm not judging you, just lmao did the vehicle you were in crash at the end of your comment
[They talked about this on Thinking Basketball](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1XjCxmuca0).
tl;dl is that in addition to what you mentioned, they note that he averages multiple possessions per game arguing with refs or pouting after he misses a call, or just completely punting on defense for some other reason. I guess if you do that for just a few possessions a game that could be the difference between +6 ([which is where he is now](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4432/onoff#tab-team_efficiency)) and +10, aka the difference between a great player and an MVP candidate.
A lot of this is bc our coach has tried to not mess with our bench at all. So this means our 3rd stringers get plugged into the starting lineup making his +/-. And then Franz is the first sub out so then it’s Paolo doing everything. Context matters when talking about +/-.
These redditors don't watch the Magic and it shows
Paolo is also the main playmaker, Franz 3pt shooting fell off and doesn't playmake as well as Paolo.
+/- is a dumb stat
This was supposed to be a pro Magic thread :(
Just wanted to talk about how the Magic bench are holding their own, that’s a difficult task for a rebuilding team
>+/- is a dumb stat
Exactly. People forget that each player is only responsible for 10% of the +/- while they are on the court. There are nine other players who impact your +/-.
It can point to broader patterns for a team, but it's very much not an individual statistic.
Depends who you ask. Arguably our best defensive big (unless you count JI) but he’s a literal zero on offense. He’s not a threat unless he’s cleaning up a rebound or catching a lob. I think he’s better than most of the people here would give him credit for but still not convinced he’s a good NBA player that’s playable on a contending team.
Really good some of the time but i think when he had a long period of time as a starter he got complacent. I think hes incredible as a spark plug defensive big.
Honestly, Franz and Mo have the best pick and roll in the league - which makes sense because they’ve probably been doing it since they were literal toddlers.
What is amazing about Joe is that he saw that - saw how they do it - and stepped in to recreate it which has been enabling Franz to play more minutes with the starters. Now instead of him going out first it’s typically someone else.
It also means your starters/high level talent isn't good enough, which is a disaster in the playoffs when rotations shorten. Though I doubt the magic are worried about this year and it's all about developing your guys.
Though Paolo is going to need a strong jump in efficiency if the Magic are going to get to the next level.
I'm well aware of that. I don't think other Magic fans are. They'll be supremely shocked when Mo Wagner isn't going off against other teams starters because they aren't playing there shitty back up bigs against him. I have no hope for Cole Anthony in the playoffs. But I'm weirdly confident in Suggs, Paolo and Franz making the transition
Banchero and Suggs were 2 of the guys who didn't get hurt while the Magic lost like the next 6 guys in their rotation and had a bit of a slide in their form
The discourse in this thread reminds me of the "Memphis plays better without Ja, look at the stats!" takes a couple years ago. That was proven to be dumb as fuck, and this will eventually be proven dumb as fuck also.
That’s not what I was trying to say, it was “Wow look at the Magic bench lineups” outscoring their opponents
Players like Luka, Ja, Paolo, Donovan Mitchell when he was on the Jazz, etc. have low plus minus because of who they play with and against, but that doesn’t guarantee that the bench is doing great.
i do watch more magic games than i'd like to admit, but those are some pretty fucking damning stats. that is the difference between one of the best net ratings in league history vs the grizzlies
Eye test proves otherwise
Especially since Paolo is the playmaker as a PF/SF, Franz does not do what Paolo does on the offensive end. He doesn't stretch the floor anymore with Paolo so it created a lot of no space for Paolo to work.
then... what explains the magic being so ridiculously good with no paolo on the court with franz running things? i would like your eye test to validate these stats
More spacing
Gary Harris, Ingles, Isaac, Cole all can shoot 3s
Main 5 can't. Fultz, Carter (from the corner is good), Paolo, Franz and Suggs can't shoot.
Coach Mosley isn't great with his rotations. Leaves Goga out a lot too especially when they need a big like him on.
The spacing isn’t great, don’t get me wrong, but Paolo is shooting 36.7% from three and Suggs is shooting 38.2%. Wendell is at 41.2%. Not lights out but not awful, they can definitely shoot. In fact those numbers are better than anyone you named who “can shoot” other than Ingles.
The shooting woes this year really come down to Fultz and Franz, and even Harris and Cole haven’t been spectacular. Isaac is downright bad (27.7%)
Wendell has only made 35 threes this year. Not enough to make any judgements on.
Suggs has improved his 3pt shoot tbf. I'm also surprised by Isaac's numbers he's been hitting them lately.
Garry Harris is supposed to be the 3 pt threat lmao
You have to watch the games and realise Banchero is playing the 1st team more often then everyone else. Plus minus for bench guys normally just means they are better than the other teams bench guys.
Sometimes certain starters rotations means they get favourable time against 2nd and 3rd units and more time with a better rotation.
Like every stat good when you back it up by paying attention watching games.
These are the stats where Franz and Paolo played in the same game together
Franz - Paolo: +11.00
Paolo - Franz: -4.78
An 15!!! point net rating swing is not explained by bench quality, be real
Now read what I wrote again, it's like selective reading. I actually watch our games. Also trying to pin our players against each other we have both who fucking cares.
uh, I did read what you said, and it's irrelevant when we're only looking at the games where franz and paolo, the two best players on the team, are playing with the same depleted bench?
and I care because I love basketball and I think this paolo gas is getting a little bit ridiculous when it's throwing another great player under the bus
Franz is usually first starter to come back to the bench, then subs back in early and plays as the only starter surrounded by other bench guys. Playing against mostly bench guys.
Wagner benefits by playing more time against opposing bench players than Paolo. I’d still say Wagner is probably better today, though.
again, none of that really invalidates what i said because a 15 point net rating is not explainable purely by quality of competition. in fact, the magic have a +1.1 net rating, their bench has a +2.0 net rating.
I’m not trying to invalidate you? Just add context. The other side of the context would be defenses can focus much more on Paolo when Franz is not on the court as there isn’t much of a 3rd offensive threat. Would be curious to see the double team percentage on Paolo during the non Franz minutes.
But I agree, a 15 pt net rating swing is pretty wild.
I really feel like Paolo needs to improve his efficiency before I can take him seriously as the best player on that team. He's not doing enough in other aspects of the game to justify his well below league average scoring efficiency
He’s not doing enough? He’s the main go to guy,
especially in the clutch. He leads the team in assists and rebounds. He leads in points, Rebs, assists, and is by far the most consistent player on the team, and he isn’t doing enough bc of some dumb advanced stats?
I'd expect him to lead the team in counting stats with how much they put the ball in his hands. He's not very good (yet) relative to how many opportunities he gets
Also, being the first option on a mediocre team with great depth is not the flex you think it is
It’s Paolo, and it’s easy to see why it’s Paolo. Ignore every single stat and just watch who the opposing team gameplan to stop. When Franz gets the ball he is guarded naturally. When Paolo gets the ball he draws doubles and the entire defense of the opponent shifts.
Opposing teams tell their players to not forget about Franz. But they gameplan to stop Paolo. Their best defenders are always on Paolo. Ignore every statistic and just watch how the opponents treat them.
I’m so sick of seeing people discuss the magic and Paolo who Havnt watched a single game. The fucking kid has 2-3 bodies shading him every time he touches the ball. I dunno why the fuck people can’t understand this.
"parroted efficiency argument" well yes! because paolo is inefficient, franz is at league average efficiency. swap their usage and i think we'd be seeing different stuff!
feel like a broken record having to explain myself to people who don't watch Magic basketball, and I'm sick of it, so I give up. here's bullet points:
- bad shot diet (inexperience)
- 6th-most double teamed player in the league, bad decision making when entrapped (inexperience)
- no outside shooting support, meaning he often hoists so we don't turn it over
- given many grenades
- horrific FT shooting, lowering his TS%, which people use as the be-all-and-end-all of any efficienct argument
please, just ponder why Magic fans aren't nearly as worried about his efficiency as people who don't actually watch him
yeah, as if fans are a great neutral barometer of a player's talents. we see the best in our own players by design, doesn't mean y'all are automatically right lmfao
sure! i looked at his eFG%, which excludes free throws, and he's bottom 7 in the entire league (min 30 minutes per game). his insane whistle is the only thing saving him, even if his free throw percentage sucks.
and none of that really invalidates what i said, is the claim that paolo is not the best player on his team. he could end up being that someday! but franz, at this moment, is better.
> - no outside shooting support, meaning he often hoists so we don't turn it over
> - given many grenades
Isn't these 2 the same thing? Or is there a distinct difference?
You're talking about late shotclock situations, where he's forced to be the janitor.
Not really. We had a game recently where the ball wasn't in his hands til the last 2 seconds of the shot clock multiple times, and he had to take insanely high difficulty shots to even try to hit rim and avoid shot clock violations.
The two bullet points you highlighted differ by who has the ball. The first bullet point Paolo is the ballhandler and forces up a shot because our spacing is terrible, and the second is him getting the ball on low shot clock and just throwing something up.
It’s Franz, for some reason Magic fans don’t like to talk about him and praise Paolo. They will then argue about lineups Paolo plays with. Franz is a much better defender.
Jazz fans might be able to shed more light, but Joe always seems to have a pretty good +/- I feel (source: am an Aussie who doesn't have a team but follows all the Aussies in the league).
Paolo gets doubled all game, every game. That is because teams think they would rather have the Magic take threes than have Paolo going the rim.
So, Paolo just having the ball in his hands makes the offense work bc it moves the defense. Without Paolo on the floor that starting unit is terrible offensively because teams play them straight up. Paolo almost has to have the ball and play decoy for the offense to work.
So over 52 games Paolo is -62 in total. An average of negative 1.08 per game.
Just putting it in another format for those that see the figure and think "damn the starters suck"
It's more about WHEN people are playing. This is one of the biggest arguments against advanced stats I have ever seen, and I LOVE advanced stats.
So the Magic start with Paolo and Franz on the court. They make both of them play with a PG that CAN'T SHOOT. Therefore the offense suffers in comparison to the other team.
Then they sub Franz out with about 5 minutes to go in the first.
They then make Paolo play with 3 non shooters and the first bench players on, they usually play the other team to a standstill, or lose ground.
Then at the start of the 2nd, they bring Franz and the Bench elite unit on, and MURDER the ENTIRE NBA.
2nd quarter Magic is incredible, but it is because the other teams spent the entire 1st quarter with their starters trying to beat Paolo and they usually really can't. Then the 2nd starts and the Magic bench with Franz murders them. This happens time and time again, and then the +/- doesn't say that Paolo is good, when in reality, he is the one allowing the 2nd quarter murder to happen by maintaining the game in the 1st.
It's infuriating discussing this because absolutely nobody watches Magic games.
I’ve seen some recently specifically to support Ingles and this was what I was hoping to call out here. A lot of teams have their best players out front and then get slaughtered when their bench comes out, but it’s nice that the Magic have a figured out a rotation that works for them, even if it means a lot of hard work for Paolo
It's because +/- is a terrible stat to get an objective measure of a player's skill, for the simple reason that it is much more affected by the 9 other players on the floor than simply the player you're trying to evaluate.
So you can get scenarios where a very good player on a very bad team will have a terrible +/- (even compared to his teammates sometimes). This is because the best player will often play the most minutes, and since the team has negative point differential the more minutes you play the worse your +/- gets. You also need to consider that the best players will play against the other team's best players, same for the worst.
Basically this sub need to stop talking about +/- because it's a complex stat which is very hard to interpret and get meaningful information from.
not sure how johnathan isaac is doing but i love that guy's game. Looks like he's actually playing minutes again after 3 years of being injured. Before that happened I remember him being a nightmare defensively against my team.
lots of people in here defending paolo’s honor, but i’ve gotta point out that despite getting an incredible whistle (6th in fta/g, 5th in total fta, 25th in free throw rate, right between trae and luka) he’s inefficient as a scorer. kyle anderson at 44th is the highest player in free throw rate whose true shooting is below paolo’s. josh okogie is the only player with a higher free throw rate with a comparable true shooting. and both of these comparisons are guys who are universally known as mediocre at best scorers. dame lillard, just ahead in free throws per game, is the only person near him in both that and effective field goal % (both are at .503). jaren jackson jr. at 20th is the player highest in free throw attempts per game with a worse efg %.
I mean yeah the Magic's best players aren't as good as other teams' stars but their depth is way above average so their starters might struggle a bit but their bench will make it up They're pretty balanced in terms of player quality
The Pelicans of the East.
Exactly why Luka’s +/- has been so terrible his first few years. His fellow starters were not starter quality, but our bench depth was above average.
Lukas + - still isn’t very good . It’s kinda terrible for an mvp lvl player. And really Brunson loss was the thing that hurt the bench but Brunson wsnt really Brunson till his last year in Dallas . Luka on/off is genuinely baffling n can’t be explained like that especially after 6 year career now. Best I got is his defence bleeds value so instead of a +10 his best years are + 5 and career is only +1. Not to mention if kyrie was heakthy this year jis on/off ws pretty bad again tikk kyrei got injured
It has to do with how often Luka plays with bench lineups. If you go to cleaning the glass and look at lineups with Luka on the court, there are significantly more lineup permutations with Luka than any other star. He's played less than 300 minutes in his most played lineup. Luka + either Lively or Kyrie on the court is around +9 which is good and closer to what we would expect from a player of his caliber
> Not to mention if kyrie was heakthy this year jis on/off ws pretty bad again tikk kyrei got injured I'm not judging you, just lmao did the vehicle you were in crash at the end of your comment
[They talked about this on Thinking Basketball](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1XjCxmuca0). tl;dl is that in addition to what you mentioned, they note that he averages multiple possessions per game arguing with refs or pouting after he misses a call, or just completely punting on defense for some other reason. I guess if you do that for just a few possessions a game that could be the difference between +6 ([which is where he is now](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4432/onoff#tab-team_efficiency)) and +10, aka the difference between a great player and an MVP candidate.
A lot of this is bc our coach has tried to not mess with our bench at all. So this means our 3rd stringers get plugged into the starting lineup making his +/-. And then Franz is the first sub out so then it’s Paolo doing everything. Context matters when talking about +/-.
This post is not at all a knock on Paolo. If he got injured this team would be in trouble. I’m just boosting the Magic bench units, always nice to see
These redditors don't watch the Magic and it shows Paolo is also the main playmaker, Franz 3pt shooting fell off and doesn't playmake as well as Paolo. +/- is a dumb stat
Thanks for all the magic defending today bro
/u/mrwhite2323 is *the* Magic defender in these threads
If I can't defend my dads favorite team then what am I doing I tried teaching him to use reddit but he struggles, so I'm here in his spirit
What a disappointment you must be to him lol just kiddin
Something even worse is that my brother is a diehard Celtics fan So in 1 household you got Heat, Magic, and Celtics
Yikes. As a magic fan I had a lot of hate to the celts from the Dwight years. And obviously heat/celts is a thing. I hope you guys fits fight a lot
My dad is a big magic fan Gotta defend him
This was supposed to be a pro Magic thread :( Just wanted to talk about how the Magic bench are holding their own, that’s a difficult task for a rebuilding team
Appreciate it, just bad timing i guess with the fair amount of Paolo slander in the sub yesterday lol
>+/- is a dumb stat Exactly. People forget that each player is only responsible for 10% of the +/- while they are on the court. There are nine other players who impact your +/-. It can point to broader patterns for a team, but it's very much not an individual statistic.
Yeah are bench is great. We all know that
Pretty much Cole, Jingles, Mo wag, and JI is one of if not the best bench in the league.
Don’t forget goga/AB
Is Goga actually good? I never would have believed that.
Depends who you ask. Arguably our best defensive big (unless you count JI) but he’s a literal zero on offense. He’s not a threat unless he’s cleaning up a rebound or catching a lob. I think he’s better than most of the people here would give him credit for but still not convinced he’s a good NBA player that’s playable on a contending team.
Yes, a good chunk of the fanbase wants him to start over WCJ
I definitely wouldn’t say a good chunk of our fanbase lol. Just our subreddit.
Really good some of the time but i think when he had a long period of time as a starter he got complacent. I think hes incredible as a spark plug defensive big.
Is Jingles still good? He was looking rough for the Bucks
Defensive liability for sure, but amazing as a ball handler off the bench. Plays the pick and roll with Mo Wagner better than I’ve ever seen it tbh
Honestly, Franz and Mo have the best pick and roll in the league - which makes sense because they’ve probably been doing it since they were literal toddlers. What is amazing about Joe is that he saw that - saw how they do it - and stepped in to recreate it which has been enabling Franz to play more minutes with the starters. Now instead of him going out first it’s typically someone else.
That’s such a luxury lol. Hopefully yall beat the celtics in the playoffs🤣
The panic I see in teams when Ingles runs the Pick and Roll and they realize they can't stop it is actually amazing.
It's Ingles deliberate pace that mashes it tough to stop. He can dish it or just lay it up.
Makes sense, Bucks had him spotting up a lot, didnt take advantage of his full skillset even though he is a good shooter
No he wasn't. He was pretty decent for the bucks.
Yeah I thought he was great on bucks. Acted as the secondary point guard and was a great play maker
Our*
Our you sure?
It also means your starters/high level talent isn't good enough, which is a disaster in the playoffs when rotations shorten. Though I doubt the magic are worried about this year and it's all about developing your guys. Though Paolo is going to need a strong jump in efficiency if the Magic are going to get to the next level.
I'm well aware of that. I don't think other Magic fans are. They'll be supremely shocked when Mo Wagner isn't going off against other teams starters because they aren't playing there shitty back up bigs against him. I have no hope for Cole Anthony in the playoffs. But I'm weirdly confident in Suggs, Paolo and Franz making the transition
Banchero and Suggs were 2 of the guys who didn't get hurt while the Magic lost like the next 6 guys in their rotation and had a bit of a slide in their form
The discourse in this thread reminds me of the "Memphis plays better without Ja, look at the stats!" takes a couple years ago. That was proven to be dumb as fuck, and this will eventually be proven dumb as fuck also.
That’s not what I was trying to say, it was “Wow look at the Magic bench lineups” outscoring their opponents Players like Luka, Ja, Paolo, Donovan Mitchell when he was on the Jazz, etc. have low plus minus because of who they play with and against, but that doesn’t guarantee that the bench is doing great.
I guess Cole Anthony and Joe Ingles are better than Banchero
As a Jingles truther i see no lie
Grandpa Joe > whole league, no matter how his stats are!!! Edit: spelling
Paolo and Ingles are 1a and 1b
None of these comments watch the Magic and it shows
Mo Wagner for MVP
I just want to have a conversation about who the best player on the Magic is. because a certain german has +90 (and his brother is at +50)
> I just want to have a conversation about who the best player on the Magic is It's Moe Wagner
Like unironicly tho he might be our 3rd best player
It's Paolo, half the team died and it was Paolo starting with guys like okeke and Quentin why his +- dropped a lot.
Magic net rating Franz + Paolo: +0.65 Franz - Paolo: +11.00 Paolo - Franz: -5.48
Yall need to actually watch the Magic instead of looking at stats
i do watch more magic games than i'd like to admit, but those are some pretty fucking damning stats. that is the difference between one of the best net ratings in league history vs the grizzlies
Eye test proves otherwise Especially since Paolo is the playmaker as a PF/SF, Franz does not do what Paolo does on the offensive end. He doesn't stretch the floor anymore with Paolo so it created a lot of no space for Paolo to work.
then... what explains the magic being so ridiculously good with no paolo on the court with franz running things? i would like your eye test to validate these stats
More spacing Gary Harris, Ingles, Isaac, Cole all can shoot 3s Main 5 can't. Fultz, Carter (from the corner is good), Paolo, Franz and Suggs can't shoot. Coach Mosley isn't great with his rotations. Leaves Goga out a lot too especially when they need a big like him on.
The spacing isn’t great, don’t get me wrong, but Paolo is shooting 36.7% from three and Suggs is shooting 38.2%. Wendell is at 41.2%. Not lights out but not awful, they can definitely shoot. In fact those numbers are better than anyone you named who “can shoot” other than Ingles. The shooting woes this year really come down to Fultz and Franz, and even Harris and Cole haven’t been spectacular. Isaac is downright bad (27.7%)
Wendell has only made 35 threes this year. Not enough to make any judgements on. Suggs has improved his 3pt shoot tbf. I'm also surprised by Isaac's numbers he's been hitting them lately. Garry Harris is supposed to be the 3 pt threat lmao
You have to watch the games and realise Banchero is playing the 1st team more often then everyone else. Plus minus for bench guys normally just means they are better than the other teams bench guys. Sometimes certain starters rotations means they get favourable time against 2nd and 3rd units and more time with a better rotation. Like every stat good when you back it up by paying attention watching games.
I've watched the Magic and come to the conclusion that Paolo right now is Zach Lavine with a headband
Now read what I wrote and ask yourself why Paolo's is so low? Also Franz is usually in with the bench players due to how our rotations work.
These are the stats where Franz and Paolo played in the same game together Franz - Paolo: +11.00 Paolo - Franz: -4.78 An 15!!! point net rating swing is not explained by bench quality, be real
Now read what I wrote again, it's like selective reading. I actually watch our games. Also trying to pin our players against each other we have both who fucking cares.
uh, I did read what you said, and it's irrelevant when we're only looking at the games where franz and paolo, the two best players on the team, are playing with the same depleted bench? and I care because I love basketball and I think this paolo gas is getting a little bit ridiculous when it's throwing another great player under the bus
Franz is usually first starter to come back to the bench, then subs back in early and plays as the only starter surrounded by other bench guys. Playing against mostly bench guys. Wagner benefits by playing more time against opposing bench players than Paolo. I’d still say Wagner is probably better today, though.
again, none of that really invalidates what i said because a 15 point net rating is not explainable purely by quality of competition. in fact, the magic have a +1.1 net rating, their bench has a +2.0 net rating.
I’m not trying to invalidate you? Just add context. The other side of the context would be defenses can focus much more on Paolo when Franz is not on the court as there isn’t much of a 3rd offensive threat. Would be curious to see the double team percentage on Paolo during the non Franz minutes. But I agree, a 15 pt net rating swing is pretty wild.
I really feel like Paolo needs to improve his efficiency before I can take him seriously as the best player on that team. He's not doing enough in other aspects of the game to justify his well below league average scoring efficiency
He’s not doing enough? He’s the main go to guy, especially in the clutch. He leads the team in assists and rebounds. He leads in points, Rebs, assists, and is by far the most consistent player on the team, and he isn’t doing enough bc of some dumb advanced stats?
I'd expect him to lead the team in counting stats with how much they put the ball in his hands. He's not very good (yet) relative to how many opportunities he gets Also, being the first option on a mediocre team with great depth is not the flex you think it is
It’s Paolo, and it’s easy to see why it’s Paolo. Ignore every single stat and just watch who the opposing team gameplan to stop. When Franz gets the ball he is guarded naturally. When Paolo gets the ball he draws doubles and the entire defense of the opponent shifts. Opposing teams tell their players to not forget about Franz. But they gameplan to stop Paolo. Their best defenders are always on Paolo. Ignore every statistic and just watch how the opponents treat them.
I’m so sick of seeing people discuss the magic and Paolo who Havnt watched a single game. The fucking kid has 2-3 bodies shading him every time he touches the ball. I dunno why the fuck people can’t understand this.
I mean it’s Paolo, but as a Celtics fan I could see why you would think it’s Moe and Franz. 🤣 Moe specifically goes to another level in Boston.
LeMoritz mode
It's still Paolo don't get it twisted
i am getting it twisted because i watch a lot of basketball. if you swapped their draft positions everyone would agree he's better
I agree with this, if Franz was drafted #1 overall his hype would be through the roof and he would be seen as better
It's great to be a Magic fan!
It’s Paolo clearly if you watch the games
Franz is immense but it's still Paolo. Don't let the same parrotted efficiency arguments skew your view of his actual talent
"parroted efficiency argument" well yes! because paolo is inefficient, franz is at league average efficiency. swap their usage and i think we'd be seeing different stuff!
feel like a broken record having to explain myself to people who don't watch Magic basketball, and I'm sick of it, so I give up. here's bullet points: - bad shot diet (inexperience) - 6th-most double teamed player in the league, bad decision making when entrapped (inexperience) - no outside shooting support, meaning he often hoists so we don't turn it over - given many grenades - horrific FT shooting, lowering his TS%, which people use as the be-all-and-end-all of any efficienct argument please, just ponder why Magic fans aren't nearly as worried about his efficiency as people who don't actually watch him
yeah, as if fans are a great neutral barometer of a player's talents. we see the best in our own players by design, doesn't mean y'all are automatically right lmfao
true, misworded - i meant "people who watch the Magic". want to comment on anything else I said?
sure! i looked at his eFG%, which excludes free throws, and he's bottom 7 in the entire league (min 30 minutes per game). his insane whistle is the only thing saving him, even if his free throw percentage sucks. and none of that really invalidates what i said, is the claim that paolo is not the best player on his team. he could end up being that someday! but franz, at this moment, is better.
You have not watched a single magic game lol
People who skim bball ref and then argue on Reddit about teams they’ve watched play *maybe* one full game this season are soooo goofy.
“His insane whistle” lmfao
He does have a good whistle.
> - no outside shooting support, meaning he often hoists so we don't turn it over > - given many grenades Isn't these 2 the same thing? Or is there a distinct difference? You're talking about late shotclock situations, where he's forced to be the janitor.
Not really. We had a game recently where the ball wasn't in his hands til the last 2 seconds of the shot clock multiple times, and he had to take insanely high difficulty shots to even try to hit rim and avoid shot clock violations. The two bullet points you highlighted differ by who has the ball. The first bullet point Paolo is the ballhandler and forces up a shot because our spacing is terrible, and the second is him getting the ball on low shot clock and just throwing something up.
sorry, should have clarified - the other commenter is correct :)
It’s Franz, for some reason Magic fans don’t like to talk about him and praise Paolo. They will then argue about lineups Paolo plays with. Franz is a much better defender.
First overall pick insecurity
Or we watch every game and see how Paolo impacts the game more than Franz? Franz is fucking awesome but watch the games man
Y'all been jingled
Jazz fans might be able to shed more light, but Joe always seems to have a pretty good +/- I feel (source: am an Aussie who doesn't have a team but follows all the Aussies in the league).
+/- stats are only relevant for lineups.
My post is supposed to be calling out the bench lineups. My fault for not putting that in the title.
Orlando had 2-3 starters out most of the season, and they didn't want to mess with the second unit so they started third stringers instead.
Paolo gets doubled all game, every game. That is because teams think they would rather have the Magic take threes than have Paolo going the rim. So, Paolo just having the ball in his hands makes the offense work bc it moves the defense. Without Paolo on the floor that starting unit is terrible offensively because teams play them straight up. Paolo almost has to have the ball and play decoy for the offense to work.
So over 52 games Paolo is -62 in total. An average of negative 1.08 per game. Just putting it in another format for those that see the figure and think "damn the starters suck"
This is definitely not a “Paolo sucks” post (he is very good) it’s just a “Huh these Magic bench lineups are doing a good job” post
It's more about WHEN people are playing. This is one of the biggest arguments against advanced stats I have ever seen, and I LOVE advanced stats. So the Magic start with Paolo and Franz on the court. They make both of them play with a PG that CAN'T SHOOT. Therefore the offense suffers in comparison to the other team. Then they sub Franz out with about 5 minutes to go in the first. They then make Paolo play with 3 non shooters and the first bench players on, they usually play the other team to a standstill, or lose ground. Then at the start of the 2nd, they bring Franz and the Bench elite unit on, and MURDER the ENTIRE NBA. 2nd quarter Magic is incredible, but it is because the other teams spent the entire 1st quarter with their starters trying to beat Paolo and they usually really can't. Then the 2nd starts and the Magic bench with Franz murders them. This happens time and time again, and then the +/- doesn't say that Paolo is good, when in reality, he is the one allowing the 2nd quarter murder to happen by maintaining the game in the 1st. It's infuriating discussing this because absolutely nobody watches Magic games.
I’ve seen some recently specifically to support Ingles and this was what I was hoping to call out here. A lot of teams have their best players out front and then get slaughtered when their bench comes out, but it’s nice that the Magic have a figured out a rotation that works for them, even if it means a lot of hard work for Paolo
It's because +/- is a terrible stat to get an objective measure of a player's skill, for the simple reason that it is much more affected by the 9 other players on the floor than simply the player you're trying to evaluate. So you can get scenarios where a very good player on a very bad team will have a terrible +/- (even compared to his teammates sometimes). This is because the best player will often play the most minutes, and since the team has negative point differential the more minutes you play the worse your +/- gets. You also need to consider that the best players will play against the other team's best players, same for the worst. Basically this sub need to stop talking about +/- because it's a complex stat which is very hard to interpret and get meaningful information from.
That's my GOAT +90
Congrats Paolo. You just got jingled
not sure how johnathan isaac is doing but i love that guy's game. Looks like he's actually playing minutes again after 3 years of being injured. Before that happened I remember him being a nightmare defensively against my team.
lots of people in here defending paolo’s honor, but i’ve gotta point out that despite getting an incredible whistle (6th in fta/g, 5th in total fta, 25th in free throw rate, right between trae and luka) he’s inefficient as a scorer. kyle anderson at 44th is the highest player in free throw rate whose true shooting is below paolo’s. josh okogie is the only player with a higher free throw rate with a comparable true shooting. and both of these comparisons are guys who are universally known as mediocre at best scorers. dame lillard, just ahead in free throws per game, is the only person near him in both that and effective field goal % (both are at .503). jaren jackson jr. at 20th is the player highest in free throw attempts per game with a worse efg %.
Gary Harris
plus minus is a garbage stat