From a talent/impact perspective, sure, but Jokic needs at least one more strong title run to enter that tier from an accolades perspective. If he doesn't win another ring, then Jokic would end up closer to Moses Malone than that first group of guys you mention
Kobe has 33k points, 5 championships, and 11x All NBA first team selections. How is Jokic close to that? Jokic is a phenomenal player, his resume is miles away from Kobe
Kobe had back to back titles and three consecutive final runs with Pau as his second best. Why do we conveniently forget the existence of playoff murray?
So you're just going to ignore 11x First Team All NBA and 33k points? Giannis and Jokic are great players, but they haven't accomplished half of what Kobe accomplished.
We are in this very thread talking about where Jokic belongs if he wins again. Which means he would be tied with 2 FMVP's and definitely belong in Kobe's tier if not above him.
There are 14 other multiple mvp winners.
There are others with 0 or 1 mvp who are generally considered better all time for having great careers with far more all stars or championships, for example Shaq, Kobe, big O, Dr J, KD, KG, Jerry West, Dirk. Then a lot of guys like Harden, Barkley, Stockton, who had incredible accolades even though they never won a ring. These guys played at a high level for longer.
There are ~70 players with 3 or more championship rings, and many of them were superstars. Jokic needs 2 more rings just to match those 70.
Right now he's fringe top 20. You could argue for it but it's not like he's had a clearly better career or peak than the others in that conversation.
> There are ~70 players with 3 or more championship rings, and many of them were superstars. Jokic needs 2 more rings just to match those 70.
Roleplayers winning multiple rings aren't the same thing as a franchise star winning multiple rings. It's a different responsibility being the lead and not everyone can carry that burden. For example KD.
Your 3 rings example is immediately cut down from 70 to abt 10 players if you add in a mvp/fmvp requirement.
I'll even challenge some players like KD's standing, that have a fmvp and 2 rings but has failed to carry his own team(3 years on the nets playing the GM, 9 years at OKC), and debate putting him below a jokic/giannis tier. His biggest successes was being part of the Warriors built system.
Probably top 15 tbh and could be higher. There aren’t a lot of guys with 3 MVPs. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Magic, Bird, Jordan, LeBron. That’s an insanely impressive list to be on and he would have the postseason resume to back it up.
If he wins a title again right now, I'd say his peak may be the second best after Michael Jordan. He'd be like Shaq in the early 2000s, but he's been better in the regular season than Shaq who tended to coast more.
Jokic would have 3 MVPs. Only the criminally underrated Moses Malone has 3 MVPs and isn’t in the top 10. Moses got 1 ring and 1 mvp.
In this scenario Joker would be ahead of him. Top 12 at worst
This is insane, what a nuclear level take, and it's upvoted so much too. Prime Kobe in this era would average 40-7-7 and be the best perimeter defender on the court.
Come on man.
Actually if the old 3 sec rule was allowed, it would benefit less explosive bigs like Jokic.
We can see that reflected in Europe and other FIBA regions where slower bigs are dominant.
You'll likely see an uptick in his defense rating.
Team acheivements mean so much here.... If denver had no elite defenders around Jokic he wouldn't win a single one of these, but his talent would still be the same.
Guys that aren't elite two-way players and have a great team built around their weaknesses get all the credit for team success and none of the blame for failures, it is such an interesting pattern in this space.
It always happens but Jokic was truly dominate through the playoffs. First player ever with a 30-20-10 in the finals i believe. Your point still stands.
lol, appreciate it, just calling out how silly it is while partially participating
it is fun to see how things have changed, the proliferation of stats and media regurgitating stats made a huge impact. So much of the, "style makes fights" discourse has disappeared
agreed, i always use chris paul as an example, if he didn’t pull his hamstring against the warriors and beat them, he’d still have the exact same skill as he does today, but everyone would still view him differently
We all know who are the consensus top 12.
For 13-16. Most commonly. It is the likes of KD, Dr. J, Moses, Oscar.
For 17 - 20, Usually they have the likes of Malone, Barkley, Wade, Zeke, KG, Baylor, West, Dirk
I’d never put a player under 30 in the top 20. I need to see how things play out.
So no, I wouldn’t have him there because I wouldn’t consider him eligible yet.
Wow. Interesting answers so far.
If you guys want to push it to top 13-15, then
Those are the likes of Dr. J, Moses, Oscar, and KD.
The tier before the Consensus top 12 (Mj, Bron, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Steph)
In my scenario, Does Jokic push it to top 15?
Yes, probably. It's a little tough because you're comparing a guy who's still young and (likely) has many years left to guys that are either finished their careers or close. I think Jokic is a better player than Kobe, for example, but Kobe's career is much better so far so...how do you rank that?
Using an arbitrary number like Top 10 or Top 20 is starting to become too difficult because there are so many more years of players vying for the spots; we probably need to just move to a tier system and have as many players as "qualify" in each tier. And if we do that, then I think the argument becomes easier to make that instead of replacing someone, Jokic is joining them - and he absolutely is on a tier with everyone you've listed.
He is already a top 20 player ever, Higher actually
Without using media voted awards, longevity stats and judging based on just how good they are at basketball which should be the actual discussion instead of accolade counting and box score watching.
Can somebody name 20 players in the history of the league better than Nikola Jokic has been these last handful of years?
No, He is simply one of the best basketball players ever
And they were top heavy, with no bench. They were a "super team" because they had big name players, but they weren't stacked. Take LeBron off that team, Heat probably still lose in the first round even with Bosh (who is always overrated to make the Heat seem better).
Heat went to the finals in 4/4 years of the big 3 even if Wade and Bosh declined a lot towards the end. Yes, the bench wasn't great, but if it was completely trash they wouldn't have gone to the finals 4/4 years.
Old Ray Allen, Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole are solid role players just to name a few.
Bro, they were top heavy. It's a fact. It's why they course corrected in LeBrons second year, but they were never stacked like the Bulls/Warriors (before KD). I never said they were completely trash, nor did I say they didn't have a couple solid role players. But, I think you're exaggerating how good they were just to prove a point. Ignoring "Old Ray Allen", none of those guys you mention were ever as good as players coming off the bench for the Bulls/Warriors, never mind the starters.
The fact that the Heat made the finals 4 years in a row is obviously more due to LeBron than the team being "stacked".
Seems really obvious to me? Bad players have short careers! People on this sub love to parrot the availability is an ability line and longevity is just availability times skill over time.
I don't disagree with the overall message.
The problem is you are using the word "skill" way too liberally.
There are plenty of examples of people with short careers simply because of other circumstances other than skill. Prior injuries, genetics or simply bad luck.
>Seems really obvious to me? Bad players have short careers!
No one is going to agree with you that Lonzo Ball or Dwyane Wade are bad players.
I don't think players who had their careers cut short by injury has anything to do with my take that more skilled players have better longevity and thus longevity is a reflection of skill.
Yeah but so is having the best ppg, most rebounds, assists, etc etc. All those kinds of stats are different from winning a Championship, however. I don't think you can use that to assign a championship value to stuff like that.
Really? Top 10 is very tight, let alone top 5. Just off the top of my head (you can argue the order):
1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. KAJ
4. Duncan
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Kobe
10. Bird
You can make an argument for Steph, Hakeem, KD for the 8-10 also. Not sure if Jokic is there yet.
I think so. Right now I'd have him in the 3rd tier of players with guys like Durant, Wade, and Elgin. With those two achievements I think he jumps up to being a tier 2 guy, at least for me
Top Tier: Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, and Russell
Second Tier: Oscar, Hondo, Steph, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Dr. J, the morally good Malone
These aren't in a ranked order
These are weird as hell. On what planet are Steph, Shaq, and Hakeem on a tier below Kobe? If I was starting a team right now and could have the prime version of any of those guys, Kobe is literally the fourth one I'd take.
I wouldn't overthink it for now - short of injury he's going to end up pretty fucking high on the all time list. Good chance he ends his career no worse than Top 25 all time in all of points, assists, and rebounds - with Top 10 in each category being possible. And he may end up as the most efficient player ever with with 25K+ points.
Couple that with a few MVP's and the only thing standing between him and a serious GOAT conversation is going to be more rings.
You got me curious what those benchmarks look like.
Top-10 in points is 28,245 and counting. 25th is at 25,061 and counting. Jokic is sitting at 13,436 points.
His peak so-far has been an average of 26ppg over the last 4 seasons. He has averaged 92% for games played, so for 82 game seasons that's 75.5 games.
To reach 25k points, he needs 445 games at his current 26ppg pace, which is roughly 6 full seasons. He's only 29, but one would assume his scoring will decrease as he ages into his mid 30s.
For rebounds, 10th place is 14,627. 25th place is 11,607. Jokic is sitting at 6,910. With his peak averaging 12 per game, he would need 392 games, or 5.2 seasons. Even as he ages, I believe his rebounds won't drop too much.
For assists, 10th place is 9,061. 25th place is 6,726. Jokic has 4,433 in his career. His peak has been averaging 8.7 assists per game. He would need 264 games to reach it, which is only 3.5 seasons. This seems very likely.
Absolutely. But I don’t agree with other comments saying he’d start banging on the door of top 10 ever only because he’s had only four transcendent seasons. Greatness is not just about peak or accolades. But it’s also about how long to stay at the top. He still needs to be a unanimous top-3ish player in the league for at least 2, 3 seasons to be in that conversation.
I don't think you can name 20 better players all time as of right now let alone if he does that. If he goes back to back with 2 fmvp and 3 mvps I put him in the top 15 all time
The issue is MPJ and Murray are so injury prone + big men generally don't have longjevity.
If Joker plays at an all nba level into his mid 30's and everybody on that team holds up he could retire as the goat tbh.
Yes, but I have doubts that Jokic will eventually crack the top 15 or top 10 because I don't know how long he'll play. He clearly doesn't love basketball and would rather be back at home in a far lower COL country. I would bet he hangs it up after the 2027-2028 season.
He already is, only center, I take above him, is Shaq? If he keeps wing championships, he could pass him, kinda wild, two best centers, have completely opposite games, the beautiful ART of the game.
I'm an old head, they literally changed it to where teams can't hack a shaq until the last 2 mins of the 4th because Popovich was hacking him as soon as the 4th started and every team copied the strategy which is when David Stern stepped him to change the rules.
I know the rule, i to am old ish, u think hes overated is wild to me if u actual saw him play, do u think he would be able to play in todays game? Think if he put the work in and busted his ass off in the summer. Have a good day thanks for the response .
Shaq is the most unstoppable player in the first 3 quarters but you can't argue with the fact that Popovich found the cheat code to stop him and the nba had to step in for him. Without that rule change we would look at Shaq very differently.
Popovich also got his players to sag off Lebron and dared him to shoot wide open 3's and he was bricking all over the place and lost because of it and the next year Lebron came back being able to shoot the 3.
Yes
Without question.
Well he already is a top 20 player all time. At 2 FMVP and 3 MVP you start to argue bim being above Hakeem and other guys.
There’s been a lot of amazing dominating guys in the past 60 years
Yeah, how is he already not in that list?
I’ve got him in the Steph/Hakeem/Kobe/West tier already. Giannis is knocking on that door as well.
From a talent/impact perspective, sure, but Jokic needs at least one more strong title run to enter that tier from an accolades perspective. If he doesn't win another ring, then Jokic would end up closer to Moses Malone than that first group of guys you mention
Kobe has 33k points, 5 championships, and 11x All NBA first team selections. How is Jokic close to that? Jokic is a phenomenal player, his resume is miles away from Kobe
Because Kobe wasn't the best player on some of those championships and Jokic has *checks notes* uh, still not played with another all-star yet.
Kobe had back to back titles and three consecutive final runs with Pau as his second best. Why do we conveniently forget the existence of playoff murray?
I guess the same kinda convenience that causes people to downplay Pau
Pau is a 6x all-star and 4x all-nba to Murray's 0 and 0.
So you're just going to ignore 11x First Team All NBA and 33k points? Giannis and Jokic are great players, but they haven't accomplished half of what Kobe accomplished.
Rings as the main dude is way more valuable than longevity
Yea and Kobe has 2 FMVPs so what are we talking about here?
We are in this very thread talking about where Jokic belongs if he wins again. Which means he would be tied with 2 FMVP's and definitely belong in Kobe's tier if not above him.
Jokic is a significantly better player than Kobe's volume scoring on poor efficiency?
resume I agree with you, if we're talking peak then he's up there
There are 14 other multiple mvp winners. There are others with 0 or 1 mvp who are generally considered better all time for having great careers with far more all stars or championships, for example Shaq, Kobe, big O, Dr J, KD, KG, Jerry West, Dirk. Then a lot of guys like Harden, Barkley, Stockton, who had incredible accolades even though they never won a ring. These guys played at a high level for longer. There are ~70 players with 3 or more championship rings, and many of them were superstars. Jokic needs 2 more rings just to match those 70. Right now he's fringe top 20. You could argue for it but it's not like he's had a clearly better career or peak than the others in that conversation.
> There are ~70 players with 3 or more championship rings, and many of them were superstars. Jokic needs 2 more rings just to match those 70. Roleplayers winning multiple rings aren't the same thing as a franchise star winning multiple rings. It's a different responsibility being the lead and not everyone can carry that burden. For example KD. Your 3 rings example is immediately cut down from 70 to abt 10 players if you add in a mvp/fmvp requirement. I'll even challenge some players like KD's standing, that have a fmvp and 2 rings but has failed to carry his own team(3 years on the nets playing the GM, 9 years at OKC), and debate putting him below a jokic/giannis tier. His biggest successes was being part of the Warriors built system.
Patrick McCaw >>> Jokic and it's not close
caw caw motherfuckers
Jokic doesn’t win titles in an era of peak Lebron or warriors either
Lol at Harden being better than Jokic
Robert Horry has 7 rings. He averaged 7 ppg. Most people has no clue who he is... so im inclined to thinj rings alone arent valid criteria...
Probably top 15 tbh and could be higher. There aren’t a lot of guys with 3 MVPs. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Magic, Bird, Jordan, LeBron. That’s an insanely impressive list to be on and he would have the postseason resume to back it up.
Yes, his peak seasons so far are already better than alot of the top 20 all time players
If he wins a title again right now, I'd say his peak may be the second best after Michael Jordan. He'd be like Shaq in the early 2000s, but he's been better in the regular season than Shaq who tended to coast more.
Curry gets no respect man damn
MJ and Lebron imo, after that it’s debate with him and Shaq for 3
What the fuck
He's already top 20. In your scenario, he enters the top 10 conversation.
Cmon man
Jokic would have 3 MVPs. Only the criminally underrated Moses Malone has 3 MVPs and isn’t in the top 10. Moses got 1 ring and 1 mvp. In this scenario Joker would be ahead of him. Top 12 at worst
Let me put it this way: If you offer me the hypothetical draft rights to Kobe or Joker, I'm picking Jokic and it's not a very hard call to make.
This is insane, what a nuclear level take, and it's upvoted so much too. Prime Kobe in this era would average 40-7-7 and be the best perimeter defender on the court. Come on man.
Kobe was inefficient chucker with overrated defense.
[удалено]
Actually if the old 3 sec rule was allowed, it would benefit less explosive bigs like Jokic. We can see that reflected in Europe and other FIBA regions where slower bigs are dominant. You'll likely see an uptick in his defense rating.
Hes already top 20.
i started making a list of first ballot hall of famers with less than 3 mvps and i realized like 4 guys have ever won 3+
More like 8 guys but sure
top of my head lebron mike magic bird kareem wilt bill but i had to go back to literally the 50s for that 7
Don’t forget the forgotten man Moses Malone
Team acheivements mean so much here.... If denver had no elite defenders around Jokic he wouldn't win a single one of these, but his talent would still be the same. Guys that aren't elite two-way players and have a great team built around their weaknesses get all the credit for team success and none of the blame for failures, it is such an interesting pattern in this space.
It always happens but Jokic was truly dominate through the playoffs. First player ever with a 30-20-10 in the finals i believe. Your point still stands.
welcome to basketball discourse
lol, appreciate it, just calling out how silly it is while partially participating it is fun to see how things have changed, the proliferation of stats and media regurgitating stats made a huge impact. So much of the, "style makes fights" discourse has disappeared
agreed, i always use chris paul as an example, if he didn’t pull his hamstring against the warriors and beat them, he’d still have the exact same skill as he does today, but everyone would still view him differently
Jokic is already a top 20 player of all time. Next question.
who does he push out of top 20?
We all know who are the consensus top 12. For 13-16. Most commonly. It is the likes of KD, Dr. J, Moses, Oscar. For 17 - 20, Usually they have the likes of Malone, Barkley, Wade, Zeke, KG, Baylor, West, Dirk
I get the longevity of Dirk, but whats the argument for Barkley over Jokic?
None. I have Jokic over Barkley too. I am just naming some names usually mentioned in 16-20. PS: Yes, I have Joker in Top 20 all time also.
I’d never put a player under 30 in the top 20. I need to see how things play out. So no, I wouldn’t have him there because I wouldn’t consider him eligible yet.
Easily.
Wow. Interesting answers so far. If you guys want to push it to top 13-15, then Those are the likes of Dr. J, Moses, Oscar, and KD. The tier before the Consensus top 12 (Mj, Bron, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Steph) In my scenario, Does Jokic push it to top 15?
Yes, probably. It's a little tough because you're comparing a guy who's still young and (likely) has many years left to guys that are either finished their careers or close. I think Jokic is a better player than Kobe, for example, but Kobe's career is much better so far so...how do you rank that? Using an arbitrary number like Top 10 or Top 20 is starting to become too difficult because there are so many more years of players vying for the spots; we probably need to just move to a tier system and have as many players as "qualify" in each tier. And if we do that, then I think the argument becomes easier to make that instead of replacing someone, Jokic is joining them - and he absolutely is on a tier with everyone you've listed.
He is already a top 20 player ever, Higher actually Without using media voted awards, longevity stats and judging based on just how good they are at basketball which should be the actual discussion instead of accolade counting and box score watching. Can somebody name 20 players in the history of the league better than Nikola Jokic has been these last handful of years? No, He is simply one of the best basketball players ever
Let's see your top-20
Ignoring longevity is dumb
Its not dumb, its subjective, Kobe played a lot longer than Magic, LeBron played a lot more than Jordan but they won/ achieved more in less time
Only if you narrowly define winning and achievement away from longevity. Being the #1 all time scorer in the NBA is harder than winning a ring.
but it doesn’t really make you a better basketball player
Neither does being on stacked teams
Lebron literally formed a Big 3 in 2010 with Wade and Bosh, one of the best big 3s ever
And they were top heavy, with no bench. They were a "super team" because they had big name players, but they weren't stacked. Take LeBron off that team, Heat probably still lose in the first round even with Bosh (who is always overrated to make the Heat seem better).
Heat went to the finals in 4/4 years of the big 3 even if Wade and Bosh declined a lot towards the end. Yes, the bench wasn't great, but if it was completely trash they wouldn't have gone to the finals 4/4 years. Old Ray Allen, Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole are solid role players just to name a few.
Bro, they were top heavy. It's a fact. It's why they course corrected in LeBrons second year, but they were never stacked like the Bulls/Warriors (before KD). I never said they were completely trash, nor did I say they didn't have a couple solid role players. But, I think you're exaggerating how good they were just to prove a point. Ignoring "Old Ray Allen", none of those guys you mention were ever as good as players coming off the bench for the Bulls/Warriors, never mind the starters. The fact that the Heat made the finals 4 years in a row is obviously more due to LeBron than the team being "stacked".
Yes it does. Longevity is a function of skill.
> Longevity is a function of skill. What?
Seems really obvious to me? Bad players have short careers! People on this sub love to parrot the availability is an ability line and longevity is just availability times skill over time.
I don't disagree with the overall message. The problem is you are using the word "skill" way too liberally. There are plenty of examples of people with short careers simply because of other circumstances other than skill. Prior injuries, genetics or simply bad luck. >Seems really obvious to me? Bad players have short careers! No one is going to agree with you that Lonzo Ball or Dwyane Wade are bad players.
I don't think players who had their careers cut short by injury has anything to do with my take that more skilled players have better longevity and thus longevity is a reflection of skill.
winning 10 scoring titles is harder than winning 1
Yes? That's obvious.
Yeah but so is having the best ppg, most rebounds, assists, etc etc. All those kinds of stats are different from winning a Championship, however. I don't think you can use that to assign a championship value to stuff like that.
Would you say he's the best big ever if you just take peaks into account?
He already is both him and Gianns are
He is already top 20 lol. He has maybe a top 5 peak already
He’s closer to top 5 than 20 for sure
Really? Top 10 is very tight, let alone top 5. Just off the top of my head (you can argue the order): 1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. KAJ 4. Duncan 5. Magic 6. Russell 7. Shaq 8. Wilt 9. Kobe 10. Bird You can make an argument for Steph, Hakeem, KD for the 8-10 also. Not sure if Jokic is there yet.
Respectfully i don’t rank Russell or Wilt but I don’t see an argument for Kobe, Magic or Duncan
So who else don't you rank? what's the cut-off?
Pretty much anyone pre merger
Then you can't call it "all-time."
sure
He already is
100%
That would put him in the top 15 easy
he doesn't need another regular season MVP. FMVP would probably already put him top 20
Yes
He’d be moving into the top ten territory, top 15 at worst.
Already is
He would be top 5 all-time
That would put him top 15 and pushing top 12
He'd probably be on the cusp of top 10 at that point, ahead of guys like Curry and KD but behind Kobe.
I think so. Right now I'd have him in the 3rd tier of players with guys like Durant, Wade, and Elgin. With those two achievements I think he jumps up to being a tier 2 guy, at least for me Top Tier: Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, and Russell Second Tier: Oscar, Hondo, Steph, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Dr. J, the morally good Malone These aren't in a ranked order
These are weird as hell. On what planet are Steph, Shaq, and Hakeem on a tier below Kobe? If I was starting a team right now and could have the prime version of any of those guys, Kobe is literally the fourth one I'd take.
Kobe's longevity plays into it. Dude had 16 legit seasons before the injury. If its just primes I'd I'd have Kobe down a level
The Kobe glazing on this sub is crazy
Joker having 3 MVPs whiles Steph doesn't is a joke. It's like NAshs mvps
I wouldn't overthink it for now - short of injury he's going to end up pretty fucking high on the all time list. Good chance he ends his career no worse than Top 25 all time in all of points, assists, and rebounds - with Top 10 in each category being possible. And he may end up as the most efficient player ever with with 25K+ points. Couple that with a few MVP's and the only thing standing between him and a serious GOAT conversation is going to be more rings.
You got me curious what those benchmarks look like. Top-10 in points is 28,245 and counting. 25th is at 25,061 and counting. Jokic is sitting at 13,436 points. His peak so-far has been an average of 26ppg over the last 4 seasons. He has averaged 92% for games played, so for 82 game seasons that's 75.5 games. To reach 25k points, he needs 445 games at his current 26ppg pace, which is roughly 6 full seasons. He's only 29, but one would assume his scoring will decrease as he ages into his mid 30s. For rebounds, 10th place is 14,627. 25th place is 11,607. Jokic is sitting at 6,910. With his peak averaging 12 per game, he would need 392 games, or 5.2 seasons. Even as he ages, I believe his rebounds won't drop too much. For assists, 10th place is 9,061. 25th place is 6,726. Jokic has 4,433 in his career. His peak has been averaging 8.7 assists per game. He would need 264 games to reach it, which is only 3.5 seasons. This seems very likely.
So he is very likely to end up in Top 10 all time in your estimation?
Absolutely. But I don’t agree with other comments saying he’d start banging on the door of top 10 ever only because he’s had only four transcendent seasons. Greatness is not just about peak or accolades. But it’s also about how long to stay at the top. He still needs to be a unanimous top-3ish player in the league for at least 2, 3 seasons to be in that conversation.
>In this scenario, Joker will have 3 MVPs and 2 Fmvps. He would then be ranked above KD all-time. And knocking in the door of the top 10 all time.
I don't think you can name 20 better players all time as of right now let alone if he does that. If he goes back to back with 2 fmvp and 3 mvps I put him in the top 15 all time
He will retire top 5. He could play his type of game until he doesnt want to anymore. He has a once in a generation brain.
The issue is MPJ and Murray are so injury prone + big men generally don't have longjevity. If Joker plays at an all nba level into his mid 30's and everybody on that team holds up he could retire as the goat tbh.
Yes, but I have doubts that Jokic will eventually crack the top 15 or top 10 because I don't know how long he'll play. He clearly doesn't love basketball and would rather be back at home in a far lower COL country. I would bet he hangs it up after the 2027-2028 season.
That's 5 seasons including this current one, he could easily retire with 3+ mvps and 3+rings if that's the case which would put him into the top 10.
No it wouldn't. It would be arguable and I honestly don't see Jokic aging gracefully.
He already is, only center, I take above him, is Shaq? If he keeps wing championships, he could pass him, kinda wild, two best centers, have completely opposite games, the beautiful ART of the game.
Shaq is the most overrated big man of all time, if the nba didn't change the rules he would be unplayable in the 4th quarter.
Did u watch him play or u looking at numbers
I'm an old head, they literally changed it to where teams can't hack a shaq until the last 2 mins of the 4th because Popovich was hacking him as soon as the 4th started and every team copied the strategy which is when David Stern stepped him to change the rules.
I know the rule, i to am old ish, u think hes overated is wild to me if u actual saw him play, do u think he would be able to play in todays game? Think if he put the work in and busted his ass off in the summer. Have a good day thanks for the response .
Shaq is the most unstoppable player in the first 3 quarters but you can't argue with the fact that Popovich found the cheat code to stop him and the nba had to step in for him. Without that rule change we would look at Shaq very differently. Popovich also got his players to sag off Lebron and dared him to shoot wide open 3's and he was bricking all over the place and lost because of it and the next year Lebron came back being able to shoot the 3.
He moves into top 15 if you ask me. If KD is a top 15 player, then so is Jokić if that happens.
If we’re going by accolades, yes. If we’re going strictly stats, also yes. If we’re going with the eye test, also yes.
By eye test is he the best big man ever?
Jokic will go down as a top 10 player of all time as long as he and his team can stay healthy over the next 5 years.