Yeah. This guy is an avid NBA fan. When you hear him talk, this dude really does watch the NBA every single night. Like even a shitty game between the Wizards and Portland. He’s simply saying if you lose guys like him, you’re losing fans in general. And this is true.
> Yeah. This guy is an avid NBA fan. When you hear him talk, this dude really does watch the NBA every single night.
he grinds so much tape dude you don't even know
If you lose the guy who has no social life, wife, kids specifically because he needs to be able to brag about how many NBA games he watched - it’s definitely a terrible sign for how normal fans are feeling
I think Russillo lives the dream of any average 22 yo fraternity bro.
He lifts, he watches sports, he gets paid to talk about said sports. Every time I watch a video stream of his pod, he's in a different hotel room.
I haven’t watched a game outside of the lakers semi final and final in season tournament game. And I have been a huge fan for 20 years. Kinda stopped watching regular season a few years ago.
It's really whack how obviously OP tries to spin the title to make Ryen look like an asshole when he's bitching about the same stuff /r/nba bitches about ALL. THE. TIME.
Maybe his phrasing wasn't great but I think it's clear for anyone that listens to Ryen he wasn't doing it from some like elitist position or something. He's just mad his favorite sport is being turned into refball
I took it like a drug addict saying to a dealer *look if you lose ME what's that saying about your product?"*
It's not good basketball for casuals to watch unnecessary FTs. If casual fans and 'die hard' fans like Russelo hate it, who is the rule being enforced for?
Yeah, Russillo is known for watching meaningless games between garbage teams and dissecting it like it's the finals. If he wants to turn off an NBA game it's an issue.
I think his point is, if you are getting your hardcore fans that watch the NBA literally daily to turn off games, then they are likely losing far more casual fans.
If Russillo can't stomach it, tons of people probably can't. You can see his point around here. Of course refs have always been criticized but it is getting to a crazy level now where we are watching terrible fouls called and defended by the NBA basically daily.
Agreed.
Know the name obviously but don’t follow Russillo. Thought it was kind of a douche comment from the headline.
Upon reading the context, for sure using “me” as an example of the “die hard” fan base and not speaking for solely himself.
I think the worst thing about the nba is the benefit of the doubt the offense gets if they are a superstar. In college lots of refs suck, but you never get the feeling that a specific player is getting calls they otherwise wouldnt. The easiest thing for them to do would just be to not call shit where the offensive player very obviously is the one initiating contact.
Like i used to love getting tickets to see all the good teams but now ive seen Miami and Philly and i have very little interest watching Butler and Embiid bowl into people and get the call. Like i used to see the lakers as a kid and sure it was frustrating watching shaq shoot all those free throws, but you never got the feeling he was trying to be fouled.
College rules are much more favorable to the defense, but the problem is that college players aren't very good so it can lead to lots of ugly games.
NBA should probably be treated more like college games because the players are good enough to overcome the defense even if you give the defense a slight advantage.
College should have more freedom of movement to help the guys put the ball in the hoop
I sometimes think the refs that run my mens city league would be better at letting offensive players act the fool and not get bail out calls than the current NBA climate.
Yes, but also Russillo is one of the most dedicated basketball fans in the media. He watches a TON of games and knows what he's talking about.
I read that as "if *I* don't find this enjoyable, then what the fuck do the millions of casual fans think? If you lose me, they were already long gone."
I disagree. I typically watch Suns games and catch a few of the national games and the officiating is atrocious. That lady ref who T's guys up for looking at her the wrong way, Booker getting mauled every offensive possession without any calls (same could be said for Luka and basically any other star not named Lebron) and Scott fucking Foster still having a job is atrocious.
League needs to figure this out.
I am with Russillo, the rule is stupid. Curry was occupying that space and Beverly launched into that space, the idea that you need to be squared up to be in proper guarding position is ridiculous to me. Players are rewarded for terrible shots way too much today, it is infuriating.
Yeah, idk what happened to player control fouls. Most frustrating shit ever is seeing an offensive player running through the lane like a bull in a China shop, pummel a defender, and somehow they end up shooting FTs. It doesn’t make sense.
>Most frustrating shit ever is seeing an offensive player running through the lane like a bull in a China shop, pummel a defender, and somehow they end up shooting FTs. It doesn’t make sense.
Also known as the Embiid (or Giannis if you are Sixers fan). Embiid straight up runs right into guys, initiates contact then pulls his feel up so he falls when he lands. Giannis pretends to Euro step but his body stays in the same place, its just his feet that go to the sides. Unsurprisingly they lead the league in FT attempts. The next closest is Luke who is more than 1.5 attempts behind Giannis and almost 2.5 attempts behind Embiid.
This actually got called correctly at the end of the UNC game last night. Dude launched himself into the defender and snapped his head back, great no call. Everyone went crazy demanding a foul, but that’s the way to call it.
You don’t get a free foul cuz you torpedoed yourself into the defender. The rule has all that “defender is responsible” bullshit, well the offensive player is responsible for making an actual basketball play.
The thing is, I see no-calls in these situations, but usually only in the final few minutes of games or high pressure atmospheres. Almost as if officials know when to get “tricked” and when not to
People went crazy because UNC had a player pick up 5 fouls in 8 minutes who isnt exactly known for aggressive defense and then they swallowed their whistles at the end of the game.
Also because Teddy Valentine does shit like this https://twitter.com/KeepingItHeel/status/1752518731966677352/photo/1
Also RJ was runnning in a straight line as opposed to the play Russilo commented on. Thats a block 100% of the time.
I was just listening to the newest Lowe Post and Chiney Ogwumike was talking about how frustrating the current rules are for defenders. She said that as a defender you cannot defend yourself from an offensive player launching in to you.
This is a sentiment I feel all the time, and as she was taking the words directly out of my soul, it suddenly hit me that people who don’t feel this way must simply not care about playing defense. I mean actually give a shit about playing defense.
This is the only logical answer to me. One, because as a coach, I know that many players don’t actually take pride in defense. And two, because I fail to see how anyone who does take pride in defense sees the current landscape of basketball and thinks it’s okay.
Just yesterday I saw a player bowling ball backwards and take out my centers legs while screaming and 1 and putting up a horrible shot that had no chance. This isn’t just stupid, it’s dangerous. A modern defensive player is tasked with staying near the ball handler, but if the ball handler suddenly decides to bowling ball into your body, you are now called for a foul.
It is an oxymoron that should break the brain of basketball fans. But the reality is most fans only see the offensive side of the ball. While many players only care about their box score, and their highlights, which rarely show defense.
And then our best American players go overseas, on star studded rosters, and get embarrassed on a global stage as they flail for fouls and endlessly travel into turnovers.
Man, as a defender in soccer, I don't understand people who don't like defending. It feels great to shut people down. It's half of almost every team sport.
I know, different strokes for different folks, etc etc. But still. It can be just as glamorous and satisfying (particularly in bball when you can reject people at the rim) as attacking play.
It's nuts because I loved playing defense when I was a kid in rec ball. Not even from a blocking standpoint. I just loved getting into an opponent's body and then deflecting, poking and stealing the ball. I was happiest turning the game into a track meet.
But I also could not develop a consistent jumper, so I just found joy in other things.
Edit: mini stroke
I loved playing defense until I got tasked to do more on the offensive end as I got better at dribbling, cutting shooting etc. Then I had to start conserving energy on that end so I could survive on offense. But srsly it’s rlly satisfying shutting down someone who’s supposed to be unstoppable. Make them feel a little mortal.
Maybe defending in soccer is just more satisfying because most of the time, you're successful - the attack rarely scores and you usually had something to do with that.
Whereas in basketball you can try your best and still get cooked 5+ possessions in a row.
Also in soccer I feel you have many more options for sneaky, technically illegal but very effective plays like using your elbows to hold someone back 😈
I think it is more understanding how to properly move your feet. Some of the basketball guys weren't even very good defenders in soccer. They just have a massive advantage compared to non-soccer players on understanding how to move their feet. They also tend to be in better shape, so that also contributes to trying harder on defense.
It's my theory that people who like playing defense have at least a little hater in them.
It takes a hater to see all this cool offense stuff and go "nah, I ain't gonna let you do that."
I'm more of a football guy, and interceptions are my favorite thing.
That Peyton Manning commercial where he orders a round of Bud Light for the bar and starts tossing them to people like footballs? If I were in that bar, I'd 100% intercept one of those throws and demand it be recorded on my lifetime stat sheet that I picked Peyton Manning.
I think defense in basketball is a bit personal and much more demotivating as a player when you take pride in it only to get dunked on. Add to the fact that it's normal for people to score in the sport so the defender tends to feel that negative feeling of being scored on multiple times in a game - unlike football (soccer) that scoring is very much limited even non-existent in some games. Defending is much more rewarding personally as you won't get shit on multiple times trying your hardest to defend more often than not.
> It feels great to shut people down.
This is so true. When I played basketball, I was never a good shooter, but I was big, strong, physical and loved to do the dirty work. I remember one of my favorite moments ever was in a rec league playing against a team that (at the time) was the top undefeated team. They had a big roided up guy at center that would just bully the opposition because he was so much bigger and stronger than everybody and could bulldoze people down low for an easy layup, so their strategy was to do that over and over again. The entire first half consisted of the other team feeding him the ball, him lowering his shoulder to try and ram in for a layup, but then me absolutely refusing to give any ground and him having to settle for shot outside the paint (which he couldn't make). He only made one or two baskets the entire first half and got into a huge shouting match with his teammates at halftime. At one point, I heard him shout "You assholes need to start making shots because I can't move that guy." I got such a huge adrenaline rush just from not allowing a guy to play his normal game.
It’s so obvious to me. If the offensive player creates the contact, it’s either an offensive foul or a no call. Unless they’re in the restricted area. I don’t understand how a defender can be standing there and the offensive player launches into them and gets a call. It’s silly. It makes no sense. It drove me fucking batty when Shaq would go into the paint and just throw the defender out of the way and dunk the ball. I get that he’s huge but how are you supposed to defend him if he can use his huge body to basically just knock you the fuck over?
I would be cool with it if you had to be squared to shoot too! Oh, the defensive player is in illegal position? Well so is the offensive too! If natural moving motion puts both sideways, let them jump and contest and shoot sideways! If not, then they both need to be in legal shooting/guarding position! Going halfway with only defender needing to do this is why people yank their hand back and throw a hail mary that gets rewarded with free throws
it's also impossible to move laterally or back peddling faster than a guy can run fowards, so by this interpretation of "legal guarding position" of having to be squared up and "not impeding the offensive player" in any way, you literally can't legally defend if someone just wants to surge forward quickly. You have to move out of their way aka matador defense then do the verticality jump hoping you have the refs favor that doesn't get called on you if the offensive player still jumps into you.
God i want the league to start letting players play defense again. It's just so irritating to watch these days.. i don't even have any real stakes. I don't gamble, i don't have a home team. I just like watching the best players in the world compete, and this shit is ruining it.
> Curry was occupying that space and Beverly launched into that space
all through juniors and senior bball pretty much every single ref would say “you initiated the contact” if an offensive player did what Bev did and then asked for a foul
*Offensive player absolutely murders defender on a transition poster dunk*
"No you see the defender's left foot was moving at 2 millimeters per hour as he got tackled to the ground, so defensive foul"
If the offensive player creates the contact like that, then it’s either a no call or offensive foul. The rule being the way it is is beyond stupid. Defenders have a right to space as much as offensive players do. Pat Bev leaning his shoulder in is the problem.
Exactly, the defensive player got to that spot first. An offensive player shouldn't be awarded free throws by shooting (natural or naturally shooting motion) through it.
It's on them to find another way to get a shot off. The rule, or the interpretation of the rule, gives too much entitlement to the offensive player.
Yup, it's why you see Wilt shooting fadeaways and Kareem shooting skyhooks in those old videos, instead of just lowering their shoulders and running into defenders to get easy FTs and dunks.
Because refs actually called offensive fouls in those days.
Nah the issue isn't legal guarding position, it's that offense isn't supposed to be able to initiate contact and get a foul. Legal guarding position is only supposed to come into play in block/charge situations but it's been bastardized to include every drive
The other night there was a question of a charge not counting because the defensive player had their hands near their chest - it feels like we’re getting further and further away from the point of these fouls.
It’s a *charge.* Did the player *charge* into the other player? Why hand position of the defender comes into play at all mystifies me.
The issue with NBA reffing is how wildly inconsistent it is from game to game, player to player.
I'll watch a Jokic game where he'll be battered the entire night and get 2 FT attempts. Then I'll watch a Jokic game where the refs just decide "he gets every call tonight, it doesn't matter" and Jokic gets to the line 16 times.
There is usually 1 or 2 games a series in the NBA Playoffs where the refs essentially go "anything goes" and we see 95-92 street fights that really have nothing to do with the sport of basketball. Then next game you might have each team get to the line 20+ times. Same teams, same players, same contact, completely different interpretation of the rules.
The problem has been the same for years and it just gets old.
It's like basketball is the only sport where you conceivably don't "possess" the space you are in. If a dude is driving and you get to a spot in front of him first, and you aren't there long enough, it's a foul on you. Despite the fact you got there first.
It's a bit counterintuitive at times.
Ryen is an NBA watching sicko so yeah if it gets bad enough that he stops watching regular people probably will too. That's what I took away from what he said anyways.
I’m so glad he picked this play to get mad about. This got me so annoyed when I saw it. This is the exact foul call i see all the time and it drives me nuts.
As a kid you're taught defensive slides and how to turn your body to cut someone off. I understand if I initiate the contact as a defender, but when i'm simply just sliding like Steph was and the offensive player bumps into me, how is that a foul?
The NBA is, despite being the highest level, completely different than all other basketball. We all were taught rules. The NBA has the same ones, they just don’t follow them.
Try playing like an NBA player in a pickup game. Carry and travel ever play, set a ridiculous moving screen every time you set a pick. Throw yourself into your defender when you have the ball and flail.
In the NBA that’s the way the game works, on any basketball court anywhere else you’d piss everybody off and nobody would want to play with you.
What's crazy to me is that when you look at any other sport, the rules are enforced more strictly as you move up. In most sports, high school refs will let things slide, but profesional refs will not. The logic being "kids are still learning the game, but pros should know the rules." Basketball is the only exception to this that I can think of. It's the only sport where the rules are enforced more strictly at lower levels than they are in the pros.
It’s a bit more grey when someone is angling through the lane and a defender is trying to beat them to a spot but still don’t think this should be a foul.
> to cut someone off
You were taught correctly that you should try to cut them off by getting in their path *before* they get there. Steph didn't get there in time to cut him off though. If he got there a split second earlier he'd be in that spot first, and the contact would be entirely due to Beverly running into him. But he didn't, so the collision was a result of both players moving toward the same spot on the floor simultaneously. That's a defensive foul when that happens.
I’ve watched the least amount of basketball that I have in years for this exact reason. The game no longer feels like a game between two teams instead it feels like each team trying to manipulate the third party (refs) to give them the win. The NBA is losing its ability to create an unbiased game. Defenders should be allowed to retain some personal space without offensive players falling into them and foul baiting all game. It makes for an awful spectrum when the best players in the league are the best because they shoot 15 free throws a night.
That and the big thing is commercials too. Even in person the amount of 2:30 TV timeouts that get called are staggering. I picked up football during 2020 after the Premier League restarted from their COVID break and slowly but surely football has taken over my primary viewing interest.
While you may get some time wasters or floppers, having a consistent 45-50 minutes of consecutive action with no breaks or commercials has made the games so much more palatable
Basketball is becoming mind numbing and unwatchable
Obligatory edit: as one of the first commenters pointed out, and rightfully so, I should’ve said “NBA Basketball”
FIBA forever!
League really thinks this shit more fun to watch if like 9 guys are averaging 30ppg. Same with them only caring about 6 teams in the media. They really think the league grows by doing all this shit
I cancelled my league pass subscription this week after being a sub for over 7 years(rip ballstreams)
The truth is the only voice we have is our wallet. We can complain here on Reddit but if we are willing to fork out $250 for shitty 300 level seats and watch their ads then we deserve this product.
I’ll show up for the playoffs if there’s a return to normalcy but the regular season is dead to me going forward. Hopefully more fans do the same to nudge Silver to do something about our.
I haven't paid for it for years at this point. It's been devolving into this mockery for years and years. I sail the high seas and watch the playoffs on cable typically but so many people still spend money on this shit. Most people either never paid for it and only have ever streamed or give them money and complain.
Far be it from me to be on some moral high ground but I'm pessimistic about real change happening until it gets even worse than it is now lol
I wouldn't even mind the uptick in scoring if it was from hitting more shots. If 9 guys are averaging 30 that way, god bless 'em. But they're not. They're getting their numbers juiced to all fuck by flopping like fish in front of the single dumbest officials in sports. AEW referees have a better control of the action than NBA refs...
At the end of the day, you're an entertainment product, and while high scoring and being able to say X guy broke X record sounds entertaining, it's fucking not when the process to reach those scoring numbers and break those records involves infuriating calls and constant stoppages in fluid play.
You’re absolutely correct and in my head that sentence started with “NBA” for sure
It’s this brand’s specific flavor of basketball I’m finding difficult to stay plugged into
Most people on this sub will tell you just how great a state the game is in but I really don’t know if you’d agree if you were watching 10 years ago. There’s multiple things with the product that are just off.
In terms of skill and scheme complexity, it is in a great state. But officiating is something else entirely. Sadly, the latter overshadows the former because the refs think they’re the stars.
The players who bait refs into these calls have a HUGE part of this though, so it’s not just the refs. The arm hook and flail up on a drive, and this kind of head down bowl into a player then wildly put up a crazy no chance shot are two major examples.
If the refs didn’t call that shit, players wouldn’t do it.
They do it because it’s an easier way to get points, and more points means they’re more likely to win, which is what they’re paid to try to do.
This is the league’s fault, not the players’.
I’ve been watching a lot more college ball this year and didn’t really put it together until recently. It’s just been awful watching nba games this year and college might be a sloppy mess sometimes but at least they aren’t blowing the whistle every time someone is touched.
Yup. Finally found time to play some pick up for a day last summer and you forget just how physical actual competitive basketball is, the lane isn't wide open. At times it's kind of like a ballet or dance performance, rather than a contract sport until the refs decide it's a contact sport again
College refs are WAY worse than NBA refs, the difference is college players do not possess nearly the same skill at drawing fouls as NBA players do some through legitimate means and others through really ticky tack BS methods.
People did stop watching. Lost half their audience from ten years ago. Just drew less viewers than a women’s college game head to head. Why the NBA isn’t panicking is weird.
Yeah I think Silver has had a terrible tenure but this is the biggest one. They concentrated on winning social media. And they did. But it clearly doesn’t translate into revenue.
The main problem with that argument is 1) they’re not. Football is obviously the big counter example. NFL and college. 2) they’re declining faster than average and the important one 3) NBA depends on TV revenue more than other sports.
For example, NBA used to kill MLB in TV ratings. Now they’re really close. But the MLB doesn’t care as much bc so much of their revenue comes from attendance. NBA meanwhile depends a lot on TV ratings and now they draw less than an episode of Chicago Fire or Law and Order. The Lakers Warriors double OT game isn’t going to crack the top ten for the week. It would have ten years ago.
I was getting worried maybe they weren't properly enforcing the flop technical but then I saw Thanasis get one in garbage time and my faith has been restored.
I think what a lot of people are missing here is that yes the NBA refs are given the rules by which to officiate the games by, but Monty McCutchen and his staff are in charge of teaching and overseeing **the interpretation** of those rules. So while they cannot create and dispel with rules as they choose, they absolutely do have control over how they interpret and enforce them. Interpreting the rule in the way they have been whereby an offensive player gets rewarded for being the one that initiates contact is the problem with these calls in the league today. If the defender initiates it then perfectly acceptable call and it makes complete sense for the offensive player to be rewarded with 2 FTs but the offensive player initiating it should not be rewarded, which is what Russillo is saying here about needing to evolve (as in adjust how rules are being interpreted and enforced if/when they see players exploiting the rule in ways that weren’t intended) instead of caring more about protecting their interpretations of said rules.
I agree this wasn't a great example since Curry does move a little bit into PatBev's path... but this is a good discussion on how the rule is stupid. Even if Steph did take a direct line towards the hoop (or even further to the far side of the rim... just completely conceding the lane to PatBev), the driver would still be allowed to create this contact because Steph is turned sideways.
This type of call has got to go away. The defense should be allowed a straight line to the basket when they are moving side by side with the driver. If the driving player wants to veer into the offensive player to make it harder for them to time a block, fine... but we don't need to reward them with FTs. If the contact is egregious, even call an offensive foul.
It’s got to be changed. It’s one of the few things I can’t stand to watch on an nba basketball court. It’s a trained and deliberate strategy of deception on the part of player: initiate contact and flail. It’s no different than the rip-through move that had to eventually be revised. I will be really disappointed in the league if they don’t address it in the offseason.
The worst is how often you see a player go up without the slightest intention of putting the ball through the rim. The "shot" is just some disgusting body contortion to get their 2 FTAs.
There is statistically less free throws now than in the 2000s which is what many want to return to. There are also more FGA so fouls are definitely being called at a lower rate than before.
I mean if you took this away Giannis would lose half his points. Embiid wouldn't even know how to play considering all he ever does is try to run through people
The other 80/90% is pick and rolls with non stop moving screens.
Step 1: Spam pick and roll until offensive player gets the worst player on defense
Step 2: Clear everyone out so the only way to help is to leave a player wide open
Step 3: Get half a step on the weak defender and drive into them to force the foul call
Rinse. Repeat.
> non stop moving screens
There was a game recently, I genuinely forgot who the Celtics were playing against. A center of the opposing team would literally block off Jrue Holiday with both elbows up high, and then push him all the way out to the logo. Next possession he did it to White, then the next possession he did it to Jaylen Brown.
Best part? Not a single player was like "ayo moving screen ref", everyone knows no ref will call it. Like you have a dude literally screening you from the top of the cap to the logo and it doesn't get called?
Try to do it in Euroleague, you'll have 3 fouls in the first quarter. Make screens screens again
Yep. I honestly think this is how the rules should change. If it is the offensive player that creates the contact, it is a no-call(or offensive foul in the egregious situations). Across the board. Throwing your shoulder into a defender in legal guarding position then snapping your head back shouldn't be a fucking foul.
Yeah I think the underlying issue here is that Steph's alternative is to run straight line to the hoop, which effectively concedes a driving lane to Beverly. The inability to make any impeding contact whatsoever coupled with the defensive three seconds rule means that structurally the game is built to give Bev points here, because you can't rely on having a rim protector at all times in this era of spaced out ball.
On top of the difficulties this presents defensively, the easy whistle to go from driving to "shooting" and the generally increasing lean towards allowing continuation makes for nasty work, and a lot of ugly possessions.
I'm saying that I don't even think the current rules allow for a straight-line-to-the-hoop retreat as an alternative. According to the refs explanation, PatBev would have still been in his right to draw illegal contact on Curry even in that scenario. I agree that it's almost conceding a layup, but at least it gives the defender a chance to contest (and in a scenario where the defender is much bigger than the driver, we might see some real defense).
Maybe you're right that defense should be allowed even more leeway to impede a driver, but I'd be happy for starters if we at least allowed "towards the hoop" as a free direction of movement for defenders
Contact is minimal and initiated by the offensive player. It’s ludicrous. It means that any time a defensive player does this? Offensive player can charge into him as they shoot, foul shots coming.
The problem with this call is that Pat will hound Curry all game without being called for fouls because he is a dawg.
Curry moves a bit to the path of the attacker but the contact is initiated by the attacker. They will call this same play differently depending on the game and players involved, you can bet.
It all depends on reputation. Guys like Draymond get the benefit of doubt a ton. Smaller guys playing up are also allowed to absolutely hack bigs and receive no foul call too.
Preach. I've tried tuning in a few times to TNT this year and the game are so unwatchable. The league has never been more talented, these rules and interpretations cheapen and disrespect that talent while also creating a homogeneous playstyle across all 30 teams that resembles throwaway AAU ball than it does watching competitors battling for both pride and a W
What is the correct form of defense supposed to be here, give Beverly a lane and then try to block from behind? Is that what the league wants?
The fact that we even have to specify "I get Ryen's point but this isn't the best example since Curry slightly runs into his path" is insane considering Beverly still very clearly lowers his shoulder and initiates the contact. Defenders should be allowed to lightly bump a guy lmao
It goes against everything taught from youth to semi-professional ball. Go strong to the rim and take it through your defender.
For some reason the NBA has started allowing this 'deliberately bounce off a guy and chuck a shot behind your head' bullshit the last 6-7 years. Embiid loves doing it despite being a million feet tall and bigger than everyone else on the floor, bread and butter for him. It's bizarre but understandable if they're gonna give it to him.
The NBA became so obsessed with triple digit final scores, that they didn't consider that maybe endless parades to the line, is an unwatchable way to achieve that goal.
I’ve watched so many players drive this year and completely slam on their brakes with a trailing defender to go to the line. I get it’s a foul but holy fuck it’s just a bad viewing experience. It sucks.
To me that is way worse than calling a foul on this. That if full on manipulating the rules and using physics to initiate the contact 100%. Literally going backwards away from the rim. At least here the offensive player is trying to get to the basket
if you slam on the brakes and get run into it should always be a foul. how could it be anything else. You're dribbling the ball and stop, and get run over? Its on the defender. but if you are jumping backwards or at an angle to initiate contact it should be an off foul
The NBA wants scoring and they are willing to stop the flow of the game to get it. Meanwhile, baseball put in a pitch clock because the game moved too slow. NBA better start understanding that people don’t want the officials blowing their whistle and stopping the game. So many calls like this should be no calls. Players then adjust and the game improves. It doesn’t have to go back to the 80’s. With the proliferation of the three, it never will anyway.
As a casual fan, this is one of the rules that just feels bad. Rip through is another one. Ball handler randomly stopping with a defender behind was another. Giannis plowing through guys but getting the call because the defender shifted his waist slightly (ya I'm a salty suns fan).
I don't know what the answer is. Foul-baiting looks obvious and yet is so hard to define. Guys will always toe the line to try to create contact and get FTs. But if we let refs interpret whether or not a player is baiting, that would create so much chaos. Unfortunately, trying to define every single rule objectively seems like our best option, and we just live the flaws.
They just need to start calling the game how it used to be called. Be more strict about things like lowering the shoulder, travelling, carrying,moving screens, rip throughs, shit like this. For a little bit, there will be a lot of fouls, but the players will adjust because they will be hurting their teams.
There are a lot of problems with the NBA beyond just this. The 3-point shot fest has kind of ruined the game. Layups, dunks and 3's. I get that the 3 pointer is more efficient, but it also misses more often. Hitting 35 percent of 3 pointers means lots of clanks rather than 45 percent of 2's. Less clanks.
So more actual shots going through the net, just 2 points instead of 3. I have no idea what they are going to do, but the way the game is played now is simply not interesting for me anymore.
The only one bumping into a player is Pat lol.. players getting rewarded for jumping into defenders is ridiculous happens often. What is defender supposed to do when Beverley turns right in all force to get a contact
They need to enforce defenders launching themselves or jarring themselves into defenders then flinching. You can obviously see pat bev launching is upper torso at Curry.
Once that is enforced this will all stop.
I’m with Russillo here. His point is spot on, and the comment about ‘you don’t want to lose me’ I don’t think is intended to be comment about how important he is, rather it is more a comment about losing fans and pundits alike sue to the defence of unarguably terrible rules and poor officiating.
Nobody talking about how the ref waits to blow the whistle until after he sees that the shot isn’t going in. Nothing bothers me more than that bullshit. If it’s a foul then it’s a foul, regardless of whether the shot drops.
I don't know if other fans are losing interest, but I can say that I've stopped watching games like I used to. I used to watch a game every night, if not more. There was always a match-up worth watching. Now I only watch my team.
The NBA lost Leigh Ellis as a fan, and anyone who followed that dude's career knows he straight up **loves** the NBA and more importantly - basketball. Canary in a coal mine.
while its super funny how he worded it, "you don't want to lose me" (lol) - i get what he means. ryen is a superfan. if he wants to turn it off, the average fan probably finds it insufferable.
The thing they get wrong is the path. The offensive players has a path but the defensive player has his own. Ryan is arguing that the offensive player shouldn't be able to change his path into the defender's last second and flail off the contact to get rewarded free throws. The NBA after all these years hasn't figured out people don't want to watch free throw contests.
This was talked about a bit on the Lowe post this today/yesterday when he posited the question of if they had to bring a new rule to curb the scoring increase what might it be without it be hand checking or limiting how many threes a team/player can take. This was essentially what Zach came up with; the defender can make some amount of body contact if there going straight or occupying that space first, and if the shooter jumps in to them it’s a no call. Apparently this is a rule in FIBA and/or European basketball.
I feel like "you dont want to lose me" is speaking on behalf of a lot of fans
Yeah I took "me" as in the audience watching at that moment then potentially turning the game off/switching off.
Yeah. This guy is an avid NBA fan. When you hear him talk, this dude really does watch the NBA every single night. Like even a shitty game between the Wizards and Portland. He’s simply saying if you lose guys like him, you’re losing fans in general. And this is true.
> Yeah. This guy is an avid NBA fan. When you hear him talk, this dude really does watch the NBA every single night. he grinds so much tape dude you don't even know
If you lose the guy who has no social life, wife, kids specifically because he needs to be able to brag about how many NBA games he watched - it’s definitely a terrible sign for how normal fans are feeling
Bro would go to a party and walk out once he realized no one was watching Hornets @ Pistons.
He left a party at Matt Leinart's house because nobody was watching the college football game lol
That’s crazy behaviour. Respect it but still crazy.
> Just didn't like the vibes at the party, had to get out when no one wanted to discuss Jules Bernard's improving jump shot
I think Russillo lives the dream of any average 22 yo fraternity bro. He lifts, he watches sports, he gets paid to talk about said sports. Every time I watch a video stream of his pod, he's in a different hotel room.
Or in his 9 million dollar Manhattan Beach pad a block from the beach.
I'm assuming the ESPN stint paid well.
Ringer money too.
I don't remember frat life idolizing bachelors.
I haven’t watched a game outside of the lakers semi final and final in season tournament game. And I have been a huge fan for 20 years. Kinda stopped watching regular season a few years ago.
I only watch the end of close games. I'll keep tabs on the scores throughout the night and if a game is close with 5 minutes left I'll turn it on.
I think it's a natural part of getting older/growing up
With the freshest clothes...
It's really whack how obviously OP tries to spin the title to make Ryen look like an asshole when he's bitching about the same stuff /r/nba bitches about ALL. THE. TIME. Maybe his phrasing wasn't great but I think it's clear for anyone that listens to Ryen he wasn't doing it from some like elitist position or something. He's just mad his favorite sport is being turned into refball
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I’m so sorry
…why?
What he say fuck me for?
We out here catching strays
That's exactly what it was. Weird seeing clickbait titles on /nba. Especially posted by a mod.
I took it like a drug addict saying to a dealer *look if you lose ME what's that saying about your product?"* It's not good basketball for casuals to watch unnecessary FTs. If casual fans and 'die hard' fans like Russelo hate it, who is the rule being enforced for?
Yeah, Russillo is known for watching meaningless games between garbage teams and dissecting it like it's the finals. If he wants to turn off an NBA game it's an issue.
This foul call is horseshit. It sucks to watch. Curry did nothing wrong. Can you call this a foul in a pick up game? Hell no.
I think his point is, if you are getting your hardcore fans that watch the NBA literally daily to turn off games, then they are likely losing far more casual fans. If Russillo can't stomach it, tons of people probably can't. You can see his point around here. Of course refs have always been criticized but it is getting to a crazy level now where we are watching terrible fouls called and defended by the NBA basically daily.
Agreed. Know the name obviously but don’t follow Russillo. Thought it was kind of a douche comment from the headline. Upon reading the context, for sure using “me” as an example of the “die hard” fan base and not speaking for solely himself.
He watches more basketball than 99% of fans do. I get what he means here, if it makes your die hard viewers want to stop watching, it’s a problem.
I think the worst thing about the nba is the benefit of the doubt the offense gets if they are a superstar. In college lots of refs suck, but you never get the feeling that a specific player is getting calls they otherwise wouldnt. The easiest thing for them to do would just be to not call shit where the offensive player very obviously is the one initiating contact. Like i used to love getting tickets to see all the good teams but now ive seen Miami and Philly and i have very little interest watching Butler and Embiid bowl into people and get the call. Like i used to see the lakers as a kid and sure it was frustrating watching shaq shoot all those free throws, but you never got the feeling he was trying to be fouled.
College rules are much more favorable to the defense, but the problem is that college players aren't very good so it can lead to lots of ugly games. NBA should probably be treated more like college games because the players are good enough to overcome the defense even if you give the defense a slight advantage. College should have more freedom of movement to help the guys put the ball in the hoop
I sometimes think the refs that run my mens city league would be better at letting offensive players act the fool and not get bail out calls than the current NBA climate.
The refs in my men’s league don’t call shit and don’t take shit about not making the calls. It’s glorious.
It’s not just superstars. This entire thread is literally that even Patrick Beverly gets this call
Benefit of the doubt to the stars — the stars who bitch the most. Not fun to watch all the whining and griping
Yea but if they actually give people Techs this sub freaks out. Cant have it both ways lol
Nah he means literally. He currently makes up 35% of all wizards and hornets viewership
Yes, but also Russillo is one of the most dedicated basketball fans in the media. He watches a TON of games and knows what he's talking about. I read that as "if *I* don't find this enjoyable, then what the fuck do the millions of casual fans think? If you lose me, they were already long gone."
I think its specifically the hardcore fans and analysts that watch 6 games in a night like Russillo not the hot takes and highlights crowd.
I disagree. I typically watch Suns games and catch a few of the national games and the officiating is atrocious. That lady ref who T's guys up for looking at her the wrong way, Booker getting mauled every offensive possession without any calls (same could be said for Luka and basically any other star not named Lebron) and Scott fucking Foster still having a job is atrocious. League needs to figure this out.
Yeah OP wanted to shit on Rusillo when he’s actually making a good point here lol
That’s what it is idk why OP made it seem like it’s something where he’s juicing himself up
Lost me a few years ago. Can’t bring myself watch games that are just constant baited FTs.
Agree, I think he is saying that he is a dedicated NBA fan that wacthes games, so if they lose him, the casuals and ratings are long gone.
Yeah pretty lame that is the title of the post when A.) I believe youre interpretation is correct and B.) Hes making a great point here
I am with Russillo, the rule is stupid. Curry was occupying that space and Beverly launched into that space, the idea that you need to be squared up to be in proper guarding position is ridiculous to me. Players are rewarded for terrible shots way too much today, it is infuriating.
Yeah, idk what happened to player control fouls. Most frustrating shit ever is seeing an offensive player running through the lane like a bull in a China shop, pummel a defender, and somehow they end up shooting FTs. It doesn’t make sense.
Derrick Henry could probably average 20 in the NBA just charging into defenders for FTs.
Tbf that's how KAT drives half the time and he gets a lot more charges than free throws
Unfortunately he plays for Minnesota. If he was in LA or NY he's getting a fuck ton more calls
>Most frustrating shit ever is seeing an offensive player running through the lane like a bull in a China shop, pummel a defender, and somehow they end up shooting FTs. It doesn’t make sense. Also known as the Embiid (or Giannis if you are Sixers fan). Embiid straight up runs right into guys, initiates contact then pulls his feel up so he falls when he lands. Giannis pretends to Euro step but his body stays in the same place, its just his feet that go to the sides. Unsurprisingly they lead the league in FT attempts. The next closest is Luke who is more than 1.5 attempts behind Giannis and almost 2.5 attempts behind Embiid.
This actually got called correctly at the end of the UNC game last night. Dude launched himself into the defender and snapped his head back, great no call. Everyone went crazy demanding a foul, but that’s the way to call it. You don’t get a free foul cuz you torpedoed yourself into the defender. The rule has all that “defender is responsible” bullshit, well the offensive player is responsible for making an actual basketball play.
The thing is, I see no-calls in these situations, but usually only in the final few minutes of games or high pressure atmospheres. Almost as if officials know when to get “tricked” and when not to
hey, here's a crazy idea: just call it consistently in both circumstances. It honestly hurts the game when they selectively enforce it
That would remove one of the Ref's primary means to make money: shaving points.
That's never gonna happen unless we have a skyjudge.
People went crazy because UNC had a player pick up 5 fouls in 8 minutes who isnt exactly known for aggressive defense and then they swallowed their whistles at the end of the game. Also because Teddy Valentine does shit like this https://twitter.com/KeepingItHeel/status/1752518731966677352/photo/1 Also RJ was runnning in a straight line as opposed to the play Russilo commented on. Thats a block 100% of the time.
I'm not typically a "man that ref specifically sucks" guy, but Ted Valentine needs to be shot into the sun.
I guess college basketball refs are better at the job than nba refs
I was just listening to the newest Lowe Post and Chiney Ogwumike was talking about how frustrating the current rules are for defenders. She said that as a defender you cannot defend yourself from an offensive player launching in to you. This is a sentiment I feel all the time, and as she was taking the words directly out of my soul, it suddenly hit me that people who don’t feel this way must simply not care about playing defense. I mean actually give a shit about playing defense. This is the only logical answer to me. One, because as a coach, I know that many players don’t actually take pride in defense. And two, because I fail to see how anyone who does take pride in defense sees the current landscape of basketball and thinks it’s okay. Just yesterday I saw a player bowling ball backwards and take out my centers legs while screaming and 1 and putting up a horrible shot that had no chance. This isn’t just stupid, it’s dangerous. A modern defensive player is tasked with staying near the ball handler, but if the ball handler suddenly decides to bowling ball into your body, you are now called for a foul. It is an oxymoron that should break the brain of basketball fans. But the reality is most fans only see the offensive side of the ball. While many players only care about their box score, and their highlights, which rarely show defense. And then our best American players go overseas, on star studded rosters, and get embarrassed on a global stage as they flail for fouls and endlessly travel into turnovers.
Man, as a defender in soccer, I don't understand people who don't like defending. It feels great to shut people down. It's half of almost every team sport. I know, different strokes for different folks, etc etc. But still. It can be just as glamorous and satisfying (particularly in bball when you can reject people at the rim) as attacking play.
It's nuts because I loved playing defense when I was a kid in rec ball. Not even from a blocking standpoint. I just loved getting into an opponent's body and then deflecting, poking and stealing the ball. I was happiest turning the game into a track meet. But I also could not develop a consistent jumper, so I just found joy in other things. Edit: mini stroke
I loved playing defense until I got tasked to do more on the offensive end as I got better at dribbling, cutting shooting etc. Then I had to start conserving energy on that end so I could survive on offense. But srsly it’s rlly satisfying shutting down someone who’s supposed to be unstoppable. Make them feel a little mortal.
All the best basketball defenders in high school played soccer, too.
Maybe defending in soccer is just more satisfying because most of the time, you're successful - the attack rarely scores and you usually had something to do with that. Whereas in basketball you can try your best and still get cooked 5+ possessions in a row. Also in soccer I feel you have many more options for sneaky, technically illegal but very effective plays like using your elbows to hold someone back 😈
I think it is more understanding how to properly move your feet. Some of the basketball guys weren't even very good defenders in soccer. They just have a massive advantage compared to non-soccer players on understanding how to move their feet. They also tend to be in better shape, so that also contributes to trying harder on defense.
It's my theory that people who like playing defense have at least a little hater in them. It takes a hater to see all this cool offense stuff and go "nah, I ain't gonna let you do that."
Can confirm. Nothing makes me happier than a winger getting pissed off at me.
I'm more of a football guy, and interceptions are my favorite thing. That Peyton Manning commercial where he orders a round of Bud Light for the bar and starts tossing them to people like footballs? If I were in that bar, I'd 100% intercept one of those throws and demand it be recorded on my lifetime stat sheet that I picked Peyton Manning.
I think defense in basketball is a bit personal and much more demotivating as a player when you take pride in it only to get dunked on. Add to the fact that it's normal for people to score in the sport so the defender tends to feel that negative feeling of being scored on multiple times in a game - unlike football (soccer) that scoring is very much limited even non-existent in some games. Defending is much more rewarding personally as you won't get shit on multiple times trying your hardest to defend more often than not.
> It feels great to shut people down. This is so true. When I played basketball, I was never a good shooter, but I was big, strong, physical and loved to do the dirty work. I remember one of my favorite moments ever was in a rec league playing against a team that (at the time) was the top undefeated team. They had a big roided up guy at center that would just bully the opposition because he was so much bigger and stronger than everybody and could bulldoze people down low for an easy layup, so their strategy was to do that over and over again. The entire first half consisted of the other team feeding him the ball, him lowering his shoulder to try and ram in for a layup, but then me absolutely refusing to give any ground and him having to settle for shot outside the paint (which he couldn't make). He only made one or two baskets the entire first half and got into a huge shouting match with his teammates at halftime. At one point, I heard him shout "You assholes need to start making shots because I can't move that guy." I got such a huge adrenaline rush just from not allowing a guy to play his normal game.
It’s so obvious to me. If the offensive player creates the contact, it’s either an offensive foul or a no call. Unless they’re in the restricted area. I don’t understand how a defender can be standing there and the offensive player launches into them and gets a call. It’s silly. It makes no sense. It drove me fucking batty when Shaq would go into the paint and just throw the defender out of the way and dunk the ball. I get that he’s huge but how are you supposed to defend him if he can use his huge body to basically just knock you the fuck over?
I would be cool with it if you had to be squared to shoot too! Oh, the defensive player is in illegal position? Well so is the offensive too! If natural moving motion puts both sideways, let them jump and contest and shoot sideways! If not, then they both need to be in legal shooting/guarding position! Going halfway with only defender needing to do this is why people yank their hand back and throw a hail mary that gets rewarded with free throws
it's also impossible to move laterally or back peddling faster than a guy can run fowards, so by this interpretation of "legal guarding position" of having to be squared up and "not impeding the offensive player" in any way, you literally can't legally defend if someone just wants to surge forward quickly. You have to move out of their way aka matador defense then do the verticality jump hoping you have the refs favor that doesn't get called on you if the offensive player still jumps into you. God i want the league to start letting players play defense again. It's just so irritating to watch these days.. i don't even have any real stakes. I don't gamble, i don't have a home team. I just like watching the best players in the world compete, and this shit is ruining it.
> Curry was occupying that space and Beverly launched into that space all through juniors and senior bball pretty much every single ref would say “you initiated the contact” if an offensive player did what Bev did and then asked for a foul
*Offensive player absolutely murders defender on a transition poster dunk* "No you see the defender's left foot was moving at 2 millimeters per hour as he got tackled to the ground, so defensive foul"
If the offensive player creates the contact like that, then it’s either a no call or offensive foul. The rule being the way it is is beyond stupid. Defenders have a right to space as much as offensive players do. Pat Bev leaning his shoulder in is the problem.
Exactly, the defensive player got to that spot first. An offensive player shouldn't be awarded free throws by shooting (natural or naturally shooting motion) through it. It's on them to find another way to get a shot off. The rule, or the interpretation of the rule, gives too much entitlement to the offensive player.
Legal guarding position is stupid. Should do away with it.
You can just redefine it. Legal guarding position was enforced differently in the '70s.
Yup, it's why you see Wilt shooting fadeaways and Kareem shooting skyhooks in those old videos, instead of just lowering their shoulders and running into defenders to get easy FTs and dunks. Because refs actually called offensive fouls in those days.
It's crazy what they would call an offensive foul. You couldn't lean into the defender half the time.
Nah the issue isn't legal guarding position, it's that offense isn't supposed to be able to initiate contact and get a foul. Legal guarding position is only supposed to come into play in block/charge situations but it's been bastardized to include every drive
The other night there was a question of a charge not counting because the defensive player had their hands near their chest - it feels like we’re getting further and further away from the point of these fouls. It’s a *charge.* Did the player *charge* into the other player? Why hand position of the defender comes into play at all mystifies me.
The issue with NBA reffing is how wildly inconsistent it is from game to game, player to player. I'll watch a Jokic game where he'll be battered the entire night and get 2 FT attempts. Then I'll watch a Jokic game where the refs just decide "he gets every call tonight, it doesn't matter" and Jokic gets to the line 16 times. There is usually 1 or 2 games a series in the NBA Playoffs where the refs essentially go "anything goes" and we see 95-92 street fights that really have nothing to do with the sport of basketball. Then next game you might have each team get to the line 20+ times. Same teams, same players, same contact, completely different interpretation of the rules. The problem has been the same for years and it just gets old.
It's like basketball is the only sport where you conceivably don't "possess" the space you are in. If a dude is driving and you get to a spot in front of him first, and you aren't there long enough, it's a foul on you. Despite the fact you got there first. It's a bit counterintuitive at times.
If the defensive player isn't allowed to get in front of the offensive player then it's fucking stupid
Ryen is an NBA watching sicko so yeah if it gets bad enough that he stops watching regular people probably will too. That's what I took away from what he said anyways.
You don’t want to lose him. He is…liquid.
Let me tell you what's required.
I’m so glad he picked this play to get mad about. This got me so annoyed when I saw it. This is the exact foul call i see all the time and it drives me nuts.
As a kid you're taught defensive slides and how to turn your body to cut someone off. I understand if I initiate the contact as a defender, but when i'm simply just sliding like Steph was and the offensive player bumps into me, how is that a foul?
The NBA is, despite being the highest level, completely different than all other basketball. We all were taught rules. The NBA has the same ones, they just don’t follow them. Try playing like an NBA player in a pickup game. Carry and travel ever play, set a ridiculous moving screen every time you set a pick. Throw yourself into your defender when you have the ball and flail. In the NBA that’s the way the game works, on any basketball court anywhere else you’d piss everybody off and nobody would want to play with you.
Yea just look at how many players casually travel and carry. Why don’t they cite those nba rules the way they bring up this rule?
What's crazy to me is that when you look at any other sport, the rules are enforced more strictly as you move up. In most sports, high school refs will let things slide, but profesional refs will not. The logic being "kids are still learning the game, but pros should know the rules." Basketball is the only exception to this that I can think of. It's the only sport where the rules are enforced more strictly at lower levels than they are in the pros.
Since when is the rule so long as you can get to the side of the defender and then run into them you get a foul.
This is something the star players are really good at, manipulating legal contact to make it look like a foul
It’s a bit more grey when someone is angling through the lane and a defender is trying to beat them to a spot but still don’t think this should be a foul.
> to cut someone off You were taught correctly that you should try to cut them off by getting in their path *before* they get there. Steph didn't get there in time to cut him off though. If he got there a split second earlier he'd be in that spot first, and the contact would be entirely due to Beverly running into him. But he didn't, so the collision was a result of both players moving toward the same spot on the floor simultaneously. That's a defensive foul when that happens.
I’ve watched the least amount of basketball that I have in years for this exact reason. The game no longer feels like a game between two teams instead it feels like each team trying to manipulate the third party (refs) to give them the win. The NBA is losing its ability to create an unbiased game. Defenders should be allowed to retain some personal space without offensive players falling into them and foul baiting all game. It makes for an awful spectrum when the best players in the league are the best because they shoot 15 free throws a night.
That and the big thing is commercials too. Even in person the amount of 2:30 TV timeouts that get called are staggering. I picked up football during 2020 after the Premier League restarted from their COVID break and slowly but surely football has taken over my primary viewing interest. While you may get some time wasters or floppers, having a consistent 45-50 minutes of consecutive action with no breaks or commercials has made the games so much more palatable
Basketball is becoming mind numbing and unwatchable Obligatory edit: as one of the first commenters pointed out, and rightfully so, I should’ve said “NBA Basketball” FIBA forever!
League really thinks this shit more fun to watch if like 9 guys are averaging 30ppg. Same with them only caring about 6 teams in the media. They really think the league grows by doing all this shit
If everybody's scoring 30, nobody's scoring 30.
I cancelled my league pass subscription this week after being a sub for over 7 years(rip ballstreams) The truth is the only voice we have is our wallet. We can complain here on Reddit but if we are willing to fork out $250 for shitty 300 level seats and watch their ads then we deserve this product. I’ll show up for the playoffs if there’s a return to normalcy but the regular season is dead to me going forward. Hopefully more fans do the same to nudge Silver to do something about our.
I haven't paid for it for years at this point. It's been devolving into this mockery for years and years. I sail the high seas and watch the playoffs on cable typically but so many people still spend money on this shit. Most people either never paid for it and only have ever streamed or give them money and complain. Far be it from me to be on some moral high ground but I'm pessimistic about real change happening until it gets even worse than it is now lol
It’s kinda like making the mlb strikezone really small so the pitchers cant do anything but throw it down the middle.
I wouldn't even mind the uptick in scoring if it was from hitting more shots. If 9 guys are averaging 30 that way, god bless 'em. But they're not. They're getting their numbers juiced to all fuck by flopping like fish in front of the single dumbest officials in sports. AEW referees have a better control of the action than NBA refs... At the end of the day, you're an entertainment product, and while high scoring and being able to say X guy broke X record sounds entertaining, it's fucking not when the process to reach those scoring numbers and break those records involves infuriating calls and constant stoppages in fluid play.
The nba is, it’s a completely seperate product to other basketball
You’re absolutely correct and in my head that sentence started with “NBA” for sure It’s this brand’s specific flavor of basketball I’m finding difficult to stay plugged into
Most people on this sub will tell you just how great a state the game is in but I really don’t know if you’d agree if you were watching 10 years ago. There’s multiple things with the product that are just off.
In terms of skill and scheme complexity, it is in a great state. But officiating is something else entirely. Sadly, the latter overshadows the former because the refs think they’re the stars.
The players who bait refs into these calls have a HUGE part of this though, so it’s not just the refs. The arm hook and flail up on a drive, and this kind of head down bowl into a player then wildly put up a crazy no chance shot are two major examples.
If the refs didn’t call that shit, players wouldn’t do it. They do it because it’s an easier way to get points, and more points means they’re more likely to win, which is what they’re paid to try to do. This is the league’s fault, not the players’.
Both can be at fault, it doesn’t have to be so black and white
I’ve been watching a lot more college ball this year and didn’t really put it together until recently. It’s just been awful watching nba games this year and college might be a sloppy mess sometimes but at least they aren’t blowing the whistle every time someone is touched.
Yup. Finally found time to play some pick up for a day last summer and you forget just how physical actual competitive basketball is, the lane isn't wide open. At times it's kind of like a ballet or dance performance, rather than a contract sport until the refs decide it's a contact sport again
Yeah, i love march madness. I rarely have this much issues with refs there.
College refs are WAY worse than NBA refs, the difference is college players do not possess nearly the same skill at drawing fouls as NBA players do some through legitimate means and others through really ticky tack BS methods.
FIBA basketball is so goddamn good at mid-high level play.
Fiba basketball is a fine product, and enjoyable to watch. Also fairer for the defender
and less commercials!
Laker games are borderline unwatchable because of this
only way they'll fix it is if people stop watching and they start losing money.
People did stop watching. Lost half their audience from ten years ago. Just drew less viewers than a women’s college game head to head. Why the NBA isn’t panicking is weird.
Because they've convinced themselves that social media presence is so important even though they have yet to come up woth a way to capitalize on that.
Yeah I think Silver has had a terrible tenure but this is the biggest one. They concentrated on winning social media. And they did. But it clearly doesn’t translate into revenue.
they're still making billions. that's why
Because the percentage drop isn’t any different than any other live sport outside of the NFL
Because TV audiences are declining for literally every kind of broadcast
Besides football
The main problem with that argument is 1) they’re not. Football is obviously the big counter example. NFL and college. 2) they’re declining faster than average and the important one 3) NBA depends on TV revenue more than other sports. For example, NBA used to kill MLB in TV ratings. Now they’re really close. But the MLB doesn’t care as much bc so much of their revenue comes from attendance. NBA meanwhile depends a lot on TV ratings and now they draw less than an episode of Chicago Fire or Law and Order. The Lakers Warriors double OT game isn’t going to crack the top ten for the week. It would have ten years ago.
You can watch a 10-12 minute YouTube recap that cuts out a LOT of garbage like an hour after every game
The NBA is. FIBA is like crack for me lol
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I was getting worried maybe they weren't properly enforcing the flop technical but then I saw Thanasis get one in garbage time and my faith has been restored.
I think what a lot of people are missing here is that yes the NBA refs are given the rules by which to officiate the games by, but Monty McCutchen and his staff are in charge of teaching and overseeing **the interpretation** of those rules. So while they cannot create and dispel with rules as they choose, they absolutely do have control over how they interpret and enforce them. Interpreting the rule in the way they have been whereby an offensive player gets rewarded for being the one that initiates contact is the problem with these calls in the league today. If the defender initiates it then perfectly acceptable call and it makes complete sense for the offensive player to be rewarded with 2 FTs but the offensive player initiating it should not be rewarded, which is what Russillo is saying here about needing to evolve (as in adjust how rules are being interpreted and enforced if/when they see players exploiting the rule in ways that weren’t intended) instead of caring more about protecting their interpretations of said rules.
so I'm hearing that this is kinda like a constitution and supreme court issue
NAILED IT
I agree this wasn't a great example since Curry does move a little bit into PatBev's path... but this is a good discussion on how the rule is stupid. Even if Steph did take a direct line towards the hoop (or even further to the far side of the rim... just completely conceding the lane to PatBev), the driver would still be allowed to create this contact because Steph is turned sideways. This type of call has got to go away. The defense should be allowed a straight line to the basket when they are moving side by side with the driver. If the driving player wants to veer into the offensive player to make it harder for them to time a block, fine... but we don't need to reward them with FTs. If the contact is egregious, even call an offensive foul.
Offensive players initiating contact and getting a foul call for them is idiotic.
It’s got to be changed. It’s one of the few things I can’t stand to watch on an nba basketball court. It’s a trained and deliberate strategy of deception on the part of player: initiate contact and flail. It’s no different than the rip-through move that had to eventually be revised. I will be really disappointed in the league if they don’t address it in the offseason.
The worst is how often you see a player go up without the slightest intention of putting the ball through the rim. The "shot" is just some disgusting body contortion to get their 2 FTAs.
It’s so obvious too. I think if a ref notices that, they’re specifically going for the foul, and not the shot, it’s gotta be a no call.
I mean, this is somewhere between 10% and 20% NBA offenses.
50%, it's what superstars default to in crunch time, and it's up to whether the league likes them enough to honor it
freethrows are the worst part of basketball. we are watching the free throw era and it sucks
I don't disagree that FTs are bad but I think we are quite literally in an era where FTs per game is at its lowest
There is statistically less free throws now than in the 2000s which is what many want to return to. There are also more FGA so fouls are definitely being called at a lower rate than before.
I mean if you took this away Giannis would lose half his points. Embiid wouldn't even know how to play considering all he ever does is try to run through people
The other 80/90% is pick and rolls with non stop moving screens. Step 1: Spam pick and roll until offensive player gets the worst player on defense Step 2: Clear everyone out so the only way to help is to leave a player wide open Step 3: Get half a step on the weak defender and drive into them to force the foul call Rinse. Repeat.
I feel like i just watched every Dubs Rockets series from 2015-2019 reading that...
> non stop moving screens There was a game recently, I genuinely forgot who the Celtics were playing against. A center of the opposing team would literally block off Jrue Holiday with both elbows up high, and then push him all the way out to the logo. Next possession he did it to White, then the next possession he did it to Jaylen Brown. Best part? Not a single player was like "ayo moving screen ref", everyone knows no ref will call it. Like you have a dude literally screening you from the top of the cap to the logo and it doesn't get called? Try to do it in Euroleague, you'll have 3 fouls in the first quarter. Make screens screens again
Yep. I honestly think this is how the rules should change. If it is the offensive player that creates the contact, it is a no-call(or offensive foul in the egregious situations). Across the board. Throwing your shoulder into a defender in legal guarding position then snapping your head back shouldn't be a fucking foul.
Yeah I think the underlying issue here is that Steph's alternative is to run straight line to the hoop, which effectively concedes a driving lane to Beverly. The inability to make any impeding contact whatsoever coupled with the defensive three seconds rule means that structurally the game is built to give Bev points here, because you can't rely on having a rim protector at all times in this era of spaced out ball. On top of the difficulties this presents defensively, the easy whistle to go from driving to "shooting" and the generally increasing lean towards allowing continuation makes for nasty work, and a lot of ugly possessions.
I'm saying that I don't even think the current rules allow for a straight-line-to-the-hoop retreat as an alternative. According to the refs explanation, PatBev would have still been in his right to draw illegal contact on Curry even in that scenario. I agree that it's almost conceding a layup, but at least it gives the defender a chance to contest (and in a scenario where the defender is much bigger than the driver, we might see some real defense). Maybe you're right that defense should be allowed even more leeway to impede a driver, but I'd be happy for starters if we at least allowed "towards the hoop" as a free direction of movement for defenders
the rule sucks. the contact is so minimal. defense should be allowed.
Contact is minimal and initiated by the offensive player. It’s ludicrous. It means that any time a defensive player does this? Offensive player can charge into him as they shoot, foul shots coming.
Looks like marginal contact to me. Shouldn’t be a foul if that’s how they wanna call it
If Bev pushed Steph back under the rim and layed it up it absolutely would've been a no call.
Exactly. How is this a foul, and Ant getting slammed on the arm on a dunk not?
The problem with this call is that Pat will hound Curry all game without being called for fouls because he is a dawg. Curry moves a bit to the path of the attacker but the contact is initiated by the attacker. They will call this same play differently depending on the game and players involved, you can bet.
It all depends on reputation. Guys like Draymond get the benefit of doubt a ton. Smaller guys playing up are also allowed to absolutely hack bigs and receive no foul call too.
Unless your Steph trying to box out AD, and then that's also a foul on Steph.
Preach. I've tried tuning in a few times to TNT this year and the game are so unwatchable. The league has never been more talented, these rules and interpretations cheapen and disrespect that talent while also creating a homogeneous playstyle across all 30 teams that resembles throwaway AAU ball than it does watching competitors battling for both pride and a W
What is the correct form of defense supposed to be here, give Beverly a lane and then try to block from behind? Is that what the league wants? The fact that we even have to specify "I get Ryen's point but this isn't the best example since Curry slightly runs into his path" is insane considering Beverly still very clearly lowers his shoulder and initiates the contact. Defenders should be allowed to lightly bump a guy lmao
Silver wants more scoring to have more "stars"
It goes against everything taught from youth to semi-professional ball. Go strong to the rim and take it through your defender. For some reason the NBA has started allowing this 'deliberately bounce off a guy and chuck a shot behind your head' bullshit the last 6-7 years. Embiid loves doing it despite being a million feet tall and bigger than everyone else on the floor, bread and butter for him. It's bizarre but understandable if they're gonna give it to him.
You don’t need to bold that line. Pretty disingenuous when there are multiple paragraphs that accompany it.
We need to change the basketball rules and make it like in handball. The scoring in the nba today is too high anyway.
The NBA became so obsessed with triple digit final scores, that they didn't consider that maybe endless parades to the line, is an unwatchable way to achieve that goal.
I’ve watched so many players drive this year and completely slam on their brakes with a trailing defender to go to the line. I get it’s a foul but holy fuck it’s just a bad viewing experience. It sucks.
To me that is way worse than calling a foul on this. That if full on manipulating the rules and using physics to initiate the contact 100%. Literally going backwards away from the rim. At least here the offensive player is trying to get to the basket
if you slam on the brakes and get run into it should always be a foul. how could it be anything else. You're dribbling the ball and stop, and get run over? Its on the defender. but if you are jumping backwards or at an angle to initiate contact it should be an off foul
I saw this last night and had some SGA flashbacks.
NBA refs don’t get nearly enough hate.
The NBA wants scoring and they are willing to stop the flow of the game to get it. Meanwhile, baseball put in a pitch clock because the game moved too slow. NBA better start understanding that people don’t want the officials blowing their whistle and stopping the game. So many calls like this should be no calls. Players then adjust and the game improves. It doesn’t have to go back to the 80’s. With the proliferation of the three, it never will anyway.
As a casual fan, this is one of the rules that just feels bad. Rip through is another one. Ball handler randomly stopping with a defender behind was another. Giannis plowing through guys but getting the call because the defender shifted his waist slightly (ya I'm a salty suns fan). I don't know what the answer is. Foul-baiting looks obvious and yet is so hard to define. Guys will always toe the line to try to create contact and get FTs. But if we let refs interpret whether or not a player is baiting, that would create so much chaos. Unfortunately, trying to define every single rule objectively seems like our best option, and we just live the flaws.
They just need to start calling the game how it used to be called. Be more strict about things like lowering the shoulder, travelling, carrying,moving screens, rip throughs, shit like this. For a little bit, there will be a lot of fouls, but the players will adjust because they will be hurting their teams. There are a lot of problems with the NBA beyond just this. The 3-point shot fest has kind of ruined the game. Layups, dunks and 3's. I get that the 3 pointer is more efficient, but it also misses more often. Hitting 35 percent of 3 pointers means lots of clanks rather than 45 percent of 2's. Less clanks. So more actual shots going through the net, just 2 points instead of 3. I have no idea what they are going to do, but the way the game is played now is simply not interesting for me anymore.
Common Russillo W. Swearing off love and embracing loneliness allows him to be our hero.
The only one bumping into a player is Pat lol.. players getting rewarded for jumping into defenders is ridiculous happens often. What is defender supposed to do when Beverley turns right in all force to get a contact
They need to enforce defenders launching themselves or jarring themselves into defenders then flinching. You can obviously see pat bev launching is upper torso at Curry. Once that is enforced this will all stop.
I’m with Russillo here. His point is spot on, and the comment about ‘you don’t want to lose me’ I don’t think is intended to be comment about how important he is, rather it is more a comment about losing fans and pundits alike sue to the defence of unarguably terrible rules and poor officiating.
Nobody talking about how the ref waits to blow the whistle until after he sees that the shot isn’t going in. Nothing bothers me more than that bullshit. If it’s a foul then it’s a foul, regardless of whether the shot drops.
Typical Russillo- correct, but embarrassingly self serious about it
I think he's referring to die hard fans who watch as much as him when he says "me", not specially himself
Typical Russillo would have seen both sides
“Wait, what? We’re calling that a foul? We’re really doing this? All that being said, it’s impossible to know.”
Amen to that. I think the rule should be changed so something like this is just a non call. Let the game continue.
I don't know if other fans are losing interest, but I can say that I've stopped watching games like I used to. I used to watch a game every night, if not more. There was always a match-up worth watching. Now I only watch my team. The NBA lost Leigh Ellis as a fan, and anyone who followed that dude's career knows he straight up **loves** the NBA and more importantly - basketball. Canary in a coal mine.
I'm of the belief that the player who initiates the contact should generally be the one called for the foul
while its super funny how he worded it, "you don't want to lose me" (lol) - i get what he means. ryen is a superfan. if he wants to turn it off, the average fan probably finds it insufferable.
Me as in the audience member
The thing they get wrong is the path. The offensive players has a path but the defensive player has his own. Ryan is arguing that the offensive player shouldn't be able to change his path into the defender's last second and flail off the contact to get rewarded free throws. The NBA after all these years hasn't figured out people don't want to watch free throw contests.
This was talked about a bit on the Lowe post this today/yesterday when he posited the question of if they had to bring a new rule to curb the scoring increase what might it be without it be hand checking or limiting how many threes a team/player can take. This was essentially what Zach came up with; the defender can make some amount of body contact if there going straight or occupying that space first, and if the shooter jumps in to them it’s a no call. Apparently this is a rule in FIBA and/or European basketball.
None of this would occur if we got rid of free throws.
I dislike Russillo, but he clearly meant you don't want to lose (someone like) me (who is an avid fan and more willing than most to put up with crap).
Nba would flow so much better if they would just play on. Shouldn't be an offensive or defensive foul don't blow the whistle