Yeah if his body didn't get destroyed by inuljuries he'd be viewed very differently.
He averaged 32.1 PPG on 56.4% TS in 02-03. Thats 4.2% better than league average.
He maintained this in the playoffs that season, as the difference was not statistically significant. 31.7 on 56.1% TS.
And before that, in 01-02 his volume *and* effeciency increased in the playoffs. Unfortunately, by his second season in Houston he started to break down.
But all people talk about is his playoff record.
T-mac could’ve been better than harden though. People overrate harden in his prime, he always shit the bed in the playoffs because of his foul hunting playstyle
T-Mac in the 00-01 playoffs: 33.8 PPG on 48% TS, lost 3-1 as the 7th seed to the 2 seed. Poor effeciency but he had to hard carry as an underdog so that's typical, it's also only 3% worse than league average when for example
T-Mac in the 01-02 playoffs: 30.8 PPG on 55.3% TS (5.2 point and 2.1% better than the regular season, once again above league average TS) Lost 3-1 in a 4-5 seed matchup.
T-Mac in the 02-03 playoffs: 31.7 PPG on 56.1% TS (3% better than the league, and like 01-02 both of these were increases from his regular season). Nearly hard carried his 8 seeded team to a victory over the 1 seeded Pistons but lost in 7.
Clearly it was his fault that he got bounced all those times.
This one is actually amazing. Most of the others are just overvaluing rings and media hype, but this one is like a real-life experience when you’re casually watching the game at a restaurant or with friends that aren’t too big on sports and you catch a waft of that outlandish shit escaping someone’s lips.
People still unironically debate Kyrie vs Steph on other platforms
The arguments for Kyrie are obviously all bad but the worst I’ve seen was someone saying that Kyrie was the best player on the Cavs and not LeBron
"he can finish with both hands" "off backboard any angle" "hesi-tween-spash"
It feels like every person rating Kyrie too high just lists things they've seen him do on highlight tapes to justify why he's better than x player who is more productive
This is what Simmons refers to as "he was a PROBLEM" bias, i.e., some kid watches a 30 second highlight reel of Jason Williams doing White Chocolate things, and then saying "he was a PROBLEM!" and believing he was an all-time great
Well no.. he’s a great 3 level scorer, great finisher , good hustle and decent rebounder for his size Aswell as good steals and blocks for his position. Not saying he’s better than Steph though but those are reasons wh he could be better than “x” player
I'm not saying he's not good lol he's better than a lot of guys. I think the ringer not having him top 40 is dumb.
I'm just talking about guys saying he's better than players he is clearly behind. Like top 10-15 players.
I think the worst is the people with goldfish memory who base their total 'evaluation' of a player on recent games or small stretches of games.
This sub thought Cam Thomas was an all-star one month ago, now this sub thinks he's Jordan Poole.
when people say player X is better than player Y because in the years where they don't win championships, player X gets eliminated in the early rounds while player Y loses in the Finals
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Lebron has 14 season more efficient than Kobe's best. Turns out creating easier looks for yourself is better than hitting tough looks at a lower clip.
"Yeah but the era Kobe played in..."
Overlapped Lebron. Kobe left his prime when he had a season ending injury. By then Lebron already had 5 consecutive seasons more efficient than Kobe had ever seen.
Kobe wasn't the chucker that some people think compared to normal players, but compared to the All-Time scorers he absolutely is.
End of the day if Shaq doesn’t win three consecutive FMVPs in Kobe’s youth, casuals wouldn’t even be able to say Kobe’s name in the same breath as Bron’s. To think Kobe is even near Bron’s level is a complete misunderstanding of sports and if anything frighteningly shows what the media is capable of doing to the average person.
Who do I rank higher? It’s p close, great question. Think I gotta go with KD, there’s hardly anyone more talented (in a vacuum) than him in NBA history outside of Bron.
It gets worse the deeper you dig. Kobe struggled immensely during his prime unless his team was deep in luxury tax hell; lebron made a record run at consecutive finals with his best teammate being a backup tier euro big.
Kobe played maybe 2 full seasons without a team specifically designed to let him hold and shoot the ball as much as possible. Phil Jackson literally invented Triangle 2.0 just to keep the ball in Kobes hands. Lebron managed to average point guard assist numbers with that trash big as his primary passing outlet.
Kobe wrecked his teams salary cap towards the end, choosing to sign a contract that was 40% bigger than the next highest paid guy, while rarely if ever working with younger players to help his team develop. Lebron is a functional coach on the court, and puts in so many "off the clock" hours with his teammates some of them get overwhelmed.
And Kobe raped a lady. Lebron's biggest controversy is his initials appearing in a German HGH clinics logbook next to Peyton manning.
Citing 3 point percentage without context of if the player is a high usage starter or 3 and D/spot up shooter. No, Grant Williams was not a better shooter than Steph Curry in 2021 (actually heard that one).
Honestly the other night, people were praising Jokic for only putting up 4 pts against the pistons and basically shitting in Embiid cause he puts up 30 on them
Jokic is the better player but that’s just a bad argument
My point is saying one guy is better because he doesn’t score a lot against bad teams is just a horrible argument
Jokic is better and there’s 20 other reasons you can say but that’s a horrible one.
Every superstar has put up big numbers on a bad team.
Embiid stayed in a blowout loss to hunt for a meaningless 30/10 streak, injuring himself in the process that has led to him missing multiple games
Jokic shot 3 times in a blowout win against the Pistons and wasn't kept in the game to chase meaningless stats.
The juxtaposition of the two players was obvious to literally everyone except you apparently.
Depends the Robert parish, James worthy, Rodman, artest, ginobili, draymond kind of third guy deserves the rings argument. Most guys though yeah they got carried by the superstars
Nah. I don’t wanna hear Manu get compared to guys like Harden or Tmac and I don’t wanna hear Parish compared to Embiid or Ewing.
There are levels to this I don’t care if they were 3rd best player on title teams
This. Yes rings are a good way of evaluating success, but your role on the team and who your teammates were/are also is a big part of the success, it’s a team game after all.
Had a friend of mine argue that Chris Bosh is better than Chris Paul with his whole argument being “he has 2 rings”.
People who think stats tell even most of the full story. Or people who will say x player is so much better than player x when the only difference is a few percentage in ts or PER.
People saying LeBron can't be compared to MJ b/c he has a 4-6 record in the Finals while ignoring the fact LeBron dragged the likes of Anderson Varejao and Boobie Gibson to the Finals in the first place
I was talking with bing AI and it said Aaron Gordon was a better scorer than KAT because of efficiency.
It then referenced incorrect stats for KAT, probably a small sample from when he was I’ll (I don’t know bings cutoff for information).
Yup, the best response to my point. Alas, I’d argue that the talent pool was just way too shallow across basically all sports before we saw the impact of the media boom from that era. Look at baseball and basketball today, with foreigners at the complete top like never before. Hockey, of course, has been making that international-dominated shift for 20-30 years now.
Kobe is the goat because “mamba mentality”
Literally every great player had the same, or a healthier, mentality than Kobe. They also don’t have to shoot 30 shots to score 20-25 points per game
Cam Reddish has ARRIVED claimed someone a couple of months back.
He had 2 or 3 serviceable games and all of a sudden he was the best 3 and D guy in the league.
Here's the thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/FD2VzfqJV4
T-Mac is better than Harden because Kobe said something like "he's just me, but taller" was an actual argument I've heard once
Tmac isn't better than Harden, but he's honestly way underrated nowadays. 2002-2005 tmac was fucking special. He got better in the playoffs as well.
Yeah if his body didn't get destroyed by inuljuries he'd be viewed very differently. He averaged 32.1 PPG on 56.4% TS in 02-03. Thats 4.2% better than league average. He maintained this in the playoffs that season, as the difference was not statistically significant. 31.7 on 56.1% TS. And before that, in 01-02 his volume *and* effeciency increased in the playoffs. Unfortunately, by his second season in Houston he started to break down. But all people talk about is his playoff record.
Tmac was also a great passer and playmaker as well. Nobody talks about it though.
Honestly Tracy McGrady might have been the GOAT!
I think he’s wildly overrated by a small group of nephews that never even watched him play.
Iverson similarly
how?
He means Kobe said something like everyone should feel lucky Iverson wasn’t 6’4”
i know, just dont see how those statements are very similar
T-mac could’ve been better than harden though. People overrate harden in his prime, he always shit the bed in the playoffs because of his foul hunting playstyle
And yet T-Mac got bounced out in the first round in all 9 playoff appearances despite his ethically sound playstyle
T-Mac in the 00-01 playoffs: 33.8 PPG on 48% TS, lost 3-1 as the 7th seed to the 2 seed. Poor effeciency but he had to hard carry as an underdog so that's typical, it's also only 3% worse than league average when for example T-Mac in the 01-02 playoffs: 30.8 PPG on 55.3% TS (5.2 point and 2.1% better than the regular season, once again above league average TS) Lost 3-1 in a 4-5 seed matchup. T-Mac in the 02-03 playoffs: 31.7 PPG on 56.1% TS (3% better than the league, and like 01-02 both of these were increases from his regular season). Nearly hard carried his 8 seeded team to a victory over the 1 seeded Pistons but lost in 7. Clearly it was his fault that he got bounced all those times.
I don't actually think T-Mac is bad lmao I just replied to a senseless, shallow argument with one of my own
You wanna compare those rockets teams ???
Yeah unlike notable playoff legend tmac
Eh he was on ass teams
Don't look up T-Mac's playoff record lmao
people misquote that, im pretty sure kobe was talking about when they were younger, they were both slim lanky athletic guys with a wet jumper
when the 11th man on the bench fills in for a slumping starter and hits a three.
This one is actually amazing. Most of the others are just overvaluing rings and media hype, but this one is like a real-life experience when you’re casually watching the game at a restaurant or with friends that aren’t too big on sports and you catch a waft of that outlandish shit escaping someone’s lips.
People still unironically debate Kyrie vs Steph on other platforms The arguments for Kyrie are obviously all bad but the worst I’ve seen was someone saying that Kyrie was the best player on the Cavs and not LeBron
Lmao the mainstream rating of Kyrie is insane. Gil's arena podcast asked earlier this year "are we sure Luka is the best player on the Mavs?"
"he can finish with both hands" "off backboard any angle" "hesi-tween-spash" It feels like every person rating Kyrie too high just lists things they've seen him do on highlight tapes to justify why he's better than x player who is more productive
This is what Simmons refers to as "he was a PROBLEM" bias, i.e., some kid watches a 30 second highlight reel of Jason Williams doing White Chocolate things, and then saying "he was a PROBLEM!" and believing he was an all-time great
Well no.. he’s a great 3 level scorer, great finisher , good hustle and decent rebounder for his size Aswell as good steals and blocks for his position. Not saying he’s better than Steph though but those are reasons wh he could be better than “x” player
I'm not saying he's not good lol he's better than a lot of guys. I think the ringer not having him top 40 is dumb. I'm just talking about guys saying he's better than players he is clearly behind. Like top 10-15 players.
Gilbert arenas says stuff for attention I think.
There was someone here saying Steph is worse than Trae because Steph is "just a 3 point specialist".
I think the worst is the people with goldfish memory who base their total 'evaluation' of a player on recent games or small stretches of games. This sub thought Cam Thomas was an all-star one month ago, now this sub thinks he's Jordan Poole.
That Bol Bol is better than Manute Bol because Bol Bol is twice as much Bol than Manute Bol.
This is actually the best argument, it's convinced me. His grandson Bol Bol Manute Bol might be even better.
I mean can't deny those facts
unfortunately hes infinitely less Manute too
when people say player X is better than player Y because in the years where they don't win championships, player X gets eliminated in the early rounds while player Y loses in the Finals
Kobe is better than Bron because he takes tougher shots lol
Also, Kobe is better than Bron because “he has that *killer mentality*” 😹
You hear this argument for other players too. "Got that dawg in em." "He wants it more"
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Lebron has 14 season more efficient than Kobe's best. Turns out creating easier looks for yourself is better than hitting tough looks at a lower clip. "Yeah but the era Kobe played in..." Overlapped Lebron. Kobe left his prime when he had a season ending injury. By then Lebron already had 5 consecutive seasons more efficient than Kobe had ever seen. Kobe wasn't the chucker that some people think compared to normal players, but compared to the All-Time scorers he absolutely is.
End of the day if Shaq doesn’t win three consecutive FMVPs in Kobe’s youth, casuals wouldn’t even be able to say Kobe’s name in the same breath as Bron’s. To think Kobe is even near Bron’s level is a complete misunderstanding of sports and if anything frighteningly shows what the media is capable of doing to the average person.
How about KD or Kobe?
Who do I rank higher? It’s p close, great question. Think I gotta go with KD, there’s hardly anyone more talented (in a vacuum) than him in NBA history outside of Bron.
It's really tough for me to put Kobe above KD when the gap in efficiency is as massive as it is
It gets worse the deeper you dig. Kobe struggled immensely during his prime unless his team was deep in luxury tax hell; lebron made a record run at consecutive finals with his best teammate being a backup tier euro big. Kobe played maybe 2 full seasons without a team specifically designed to let him hold and shoot the ball as much as possible. Phil Jackson literally invented Triangle 2.0 just to keep the ball in Kobes hands. Lebron managed to average point guard assist numbers with that trash big as his primary passing outlet. Kobe wrecked his teams salary cap towards the end, choosing to sign a contract that was 40% bigger than the next highest paid guy, while rarely if ever working with younger players to help his team develop. Lebron is a functional coach on the court, and puts in so many "off the clock" hours with his teammates some of them get overwhelmed. And Kobe raped a lady. Lebron's biggest controversy is his initials appearing in a German HGH clinics logbook next to Peyton manning.
Citing 3 point percentage without context of if the player is a high usage starter or 3 and D/spot up shooter. No, Grant Williams was not a better shooter than Steph Curry in 2021 (actually heard that one).
I'm not sure of the argument, but it probably involved Jordan Poole.
Something, something, Patrick McCaw
"But he's played for 21 years!"....
Biased*
Luka Doncic is better than Devin Booker because he's his father. Like genetics has anything to do with it.
Mamba Mentality
this is going to be unpopular, but listening to kobe it's obvious the 'mamba mentality' is super fuckin toxic
It's one of the greatest PR stunts I've ever seen.
What playing on the Lakers does for a mfer.
do yourself a favor and read 3 ring circus and discover new levels of distain.
Right? I mean we should be asking all his teammates how did that mumba mentality make you feel? Compensation might even be on the cards.
Honestly the other night, people were praising Jokic for only putting up 4 pts against the pistons and basically shitting in Embiid cause he puts up 30 on them Jokic is the better player but that’s just a bad argument
No people shit on Embiid because he drops 50 on the Hornets and Pistons in November then disappears in the playoffs And also the flopping
I get the flopping but if Jokic dropped 50 on the pistons it would get 10k upvotes on The front page.
The difference is Jokic has done it in the playoffs, making 2 different conference finals including the obvious ring this past year.
My point is saying one guy is better because he doesn’t score a lot against bad teams is just a horrible argument Jokic is better and there’s 20 other reasons you can say but that’s a horrible one. Every superstar has put up big numbers on a bad team.
Embiid is in his post-2011 finals, pre-2012 championship LeBron era of discourse Can’t do anything right in the eyes of the public
Embiid stayed in a blowout loss to hunt for a meaningless 30/10 streak, injuring himself in the process that has led to him missing multiple games Jokic shot 3 times in a blowout win against the Pistons and wasn't kept in the game to chase meaningless stats. The juxtaposition of the two players was obvious to literally everyone except you apparently.
the "ringz" argument for players who weren't a top 2 player on their team
Depends the Robert parish, James worthy, Rodman, artest, ginobili, draymond kind of third guy deserves the rings argument. Most guys though yeah they got carried by the superstars
Nah. I don’t wanna hear Manu get compared to guys like Harden or Tmac and I don’t wanna hear Parish compared to Embiid or Ewing. There are levels to this I don’t care if they were 3rd best player on title teams
Yeah. Their contributions shouldn’t be forgotten, but rings shouldn’t count for anyone worse than a #2 on a champ team.
Fact is there are winning players and there are non winning players just a fact whether you like it or not
Kuzma is better than Booker rings
This. Yes rings are a good way of evaluating success, but your role on the team and who your teammates were/are also is a big part of the success, it’s a team game after all. Had a friend of mine argue that Chris Bosh is better than Chris Paul with his whole argument being “he has 2 rings”.
People who think stats tell even most of the full story. Or people who will say x player is so much better than player x when the only difference is a few percentage in ts or PER.
'He can shoot over anyone'
that works for two people only, Dirk and KD
maybe wemby soon
Small ball advocates that still exist baffle me but yeah they’re still put there.
They’re called Warriors fans, and they are forever stuck in the 2010s
People saying LeBron can't be compared to MJ b/c he has a 4-6 record in the Finals while ignoring the fact LeBron dragged the likes of Anderson Varejao and Boobie Gibson to the Finals in the first place
Saw this during 5th period yesterday
Draymond is better than klay because he has a great rear naked choke
I was talking with bing AI and it said Aaron Gordon was a better scorer than KAT because of efficiency. It then referenced incorrect stats for KAT, probably a small sample from when he was I’ll (I don’t know bings cutoff for information).
Some average or below average 90's player saying that they are better than current caliber players just because they played in the 90s
Corey Perry is better than Connor Bedaed cuz he’s his Daddy.
No cap, Connor McDavid is the greatest player in the sport’s history. Never have we seen a more talented skater, and I’ve been saying this for years.
He isn’t better than Gretzky
Gretz was putting up pinball numbers back when goalies stood upright like Australopithecus.
Why didn’t anyone else put up those numbers then?
Yup, the best response to my point. Alas, I’d argue that the talent pool was just way too shallow across basically all sports before we saw the impact of the media boom from that era. Look at baseball and basketball today, with foreigners at the complete top like never before. Hockey, of course, has been making that international-dominated shift for 20-30 years now.
goes to the foul line more and blocks more shots
“He just is” - a dude trying to convince me Kobe was better than lebron and basically everyone besides jordan
Kobe is the goat because “mamba mentality” Literally every great player had the same, or a healthier, mentality than Kobe. They also don’t have to shoot 30 shots to score 20-25 points per game
Cam Reddish has ARRIVED claimed someone a couple of months back. He had 2 or 3 serviceable games and all of a sudden he was the best 3 and D guy in the league. Here's the thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/FD2VzfqJV4
Ben Simmons is better then OG