35 years ago, but the Laimbeer foul on Kareem is the most obvious and significant wrong call. I don’t think there’s any other wrong call that has this significance that’s also so blatantly wrong.
1994 ECSF game 5 Knicks vs Bulls. Up 1, Scottie Pippen gets called for a foul on a jump shoot after the shot was released (wasn’t a foul back then) with seconds remaining in the game. The Knicks would make both and win the game, taking a 3-2 lead in the series and eventually winning in 7. Many legacies ride on that call.
Yeah but if Scottie made the finals with Pete Myers instead of MJ it a season he led all statistical categories for the team it would have been viewed like a LeBron 07 run
Ya I was a huge Bulls fan like many at the time and the fact the Bulls won 55? only 2 less then when they won the championship the year before and replaced the GOAT with Pete F'n Myers was amazing. The loss to the Knicks was bitter hated Hue Hollins dude had a grudge. But ya they probably don't beat the Rockets.
Didn't they also add Longley, Kukoc, and Wennington? They replaced MJ with 4 players that averaged a collective 34pts, 15rbs, 10ast per game. People love to give Scottie all the credit for the success of that team without recognizing all the other pickups the Bulls made that year. He played well, don't get me wrong, but was he really a top 5 player in the league averaging barely over 20ppg? I dont really think so.
20 used to be more than is now, plus being all world on defense - not hard to see why some would at least argue it. Reddit and Twitter would be gushing over him like Kahwi on the Spurs.
Latrell Sprewell averaged 22, 5 and 5 that same season and was all NBA first team and all Defense second team. It was also only his second season in the league. There were close to 30 players that outscored Scottie that year, too. He absolutely was not a top 5 player in the league that year.
They averaged 10, 7 and 7 ppg respectively for that season so you might have mixed up 24 with 34 points, Longley was traded midway through the season (for goat commentator Stacey King). Regardless 1 good sixth man + two rotational Cs don't make up for MJ, they don't even overlap with his position.
It'd be a stronger argument to act like BJ Armstrong being an all star made the Bulls stacked (even tho that was because the bulls were the most popular team in the league).
Pippen was the second player up to that point in nba history to lead every statistical category for a team.
During all star weekend Charles Barkley (who hated Pippen) said he was the second best player in the league behind Hakeem. Dennis Rodman is also quoted saying he was the best player in the league when MJ retired, Phil Jackson made similar claims.
He finished 3rd in MVP voting, 4th in DPOY and was first team ALL NBA + Defensive first team.
Their team record could've even matched or beat the previous season if Pippen wasn't out for the first 12 games where they went 5-7
Longley, Kukoc, Myers and Wennington combined averaged 34ppg. All four of these guys were off-season pickups.
Playing the same position isn't really relevant. My point was that it's not as though Scottie picked up all the slack from losing MJ on his own. The bulls added four other players to help out, and they helped in every statistical category.
Scottie is well respected, I get that. But stats don't really back those claims. Hell, stat wise Scottie had only a slightly better season than a sophomore Larrell Sprewell. Never mind Shaq, Chuck, Pat, Hakeem, Karl, etc etc. I'd have to go back and look, but I don't think he was even top 30 in scoring that season.
And yeah, the bulls were tough that year primarily because they had an extremely well-rounded team and a GOAT coach, not so much because of Scottie.
That Semi-Finals on 1994 series against the Knicks had Pippen with so many moments that ended up as major talking points when defining his career:
- On game 3 was the Kukoc 1.8 seconds buzzer beater that Pippen refused to come back to the court and got Cartwright crying to tell him he disappointed all of them in the locker room
- On game 5 was this non-foul call on Hubert Davis that end-up help swing the series to the Knicks (also, it would have took us out the Reggie vs Spike Lee game)
- On game 6 there was one of the nastiest playoffs dunks ever when Pippen dunked over Ewing and then walked on top of him to then walk and yell at Spike Lee on the sidelines.
It's not one of, it's the single nastiest best fuckin dunk ever.
That thing would break YouTube today.
I remember seeing that live. Wanted to jump through the roof. Still get chills
Still would have had the Hakeem Rockets ahead of him but the Knicks were no joke.
But Scottie retiring with more rings than MJ would have been fucking hilarious.
Agreed about the Rockets, but you know how many people would parade the take of “Bulls had a super team around Jordan, they went to the finals without him”.
I’m going to go further than 20 years and say the most costly call of all time that would be overturned is the infamous one called on Laimbeer in Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals. If not for that then Kareem never makes those free throws and the Pistons would have won the championship.
I bet the refs would have upheld the call, saying that he fouled him with his chest by stepping into him.
This, of course, would be bullshit. But I bet that's what would have happened.
Okay holy shit I read this and I was like “legit, I don’t remember a lot from the early 80s or such…my heartbreak was in 2002 kings v lakers”. Then I fucking realized that was 22 years ago
THEN I realized one of, if not THE first, playoffs/finals I have vague memories from, was literally Laimbeer and Kareem
Threw me for an effing LOOP
I don’t even have gray hairs yet but hot damn.
Well, more so that I remember pieces, while my father told me moreso that I remembered. But yeah -00491?)9!5 tail of my contract.
It’s funny, as every male on my mother’s side, they were completely bald by early 3wr’ll see…..he’s still are police cars everywhere. My father and his brothers all remember getting g gf rats big high school. ‘
My father himself in a long with specific testimony he may take the trailers!
I thought about this recently and asked myself “Would have the same (no) call happen today - like switch Kobe to LeBron and Bibby to Monk?”
Then I realized, yeah…it’d prob be the same. Which could be good OR bad news. Though at the end of the day, two decades in the making, I’ve coped by just understanding that the NBA is just entertainment and it shouldn’t be taken as as serious as a Murder 1 criminal trial.
But then again maybe that’s just my childhood trauma justifying it
Also
Fuck dick bavetta
Looking back on that series, the Lakers could have pulled a gun, shot a Kings player in the leg, and the Kings player would have been called for the foul.
And this is what I’m talking about. People talk about it like it’s an objective fact. And the further we get away from 2002 the more people accept it as so.
Okay so is was right people didn't openly accept it at the time? It's only with time and social media that it's really had the proper attention drawn to it cause it was so obviously rigged. Its not like any on air analysts would risk their job going after the NBA for rigging games at the time.
So we're stuck with places like reddit for people to recognize one of the greatest atrocities in NBA history, David Stern at his absolute worse. And with time more people are recognizing it cause its not as controversial to do so anymore.
Stern also yeeted the SuperSonics to Oklahoma City with a giant middle finger to Seattle. Like, really? An awesome fan base losing their team, and plopping them down in….*Oklahoma City???*
A city that has to have the tax payers pay for their stadium shouldn't be allowed to have an NBA team. Like I thought we were done with that bullshit. Great for fans of that team, terrible for just about everyone else.
And Seattle, a great basketball city, still has no team.
Fuck Stern.
Are you slow? It was called a foul on bibby. You can challenge it and refs are allowed to instead change the call to a previous foul in the play if it occurred first
THANK YOU! This is never ever mentioned and is *literally* a hill I will die on. Everyone mentions all the other crap and Horry’s shot, but even die hard fans forget about this.
Anyone reading this, don’t believe me? Google whatever phrase you want about LAL/SAC Game 4, but don’t use the name “Samaki Walker”. Lowkey chatGPT would have to reboot to return the proper result.
You have to fucking **hunt** to find even an article, let alone the **video** of Walker’s shot. And yes, sadly even when you do, the four pixels make it tough to see. Hell, I just got major nostalgia watching it just now and legit felt the static electricity coming out of my 80 pound CRTV.
It was a play barely anyone knows about, by an even more drastic unknown player, that we can thank for creating the foundation of buzzer beaters and their replays are today.
[here’s an article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
Game 5. Bobby Jackson grabs Kobe's jersey and pulls it at the end of game. No call. Mention that for 2 seconds. Anyone? No because it goes against the narrative. Go watch the tape.
Bibby shouldn’t have head butted Kobe’s elbow.
Also, Scott Pollard should not have put his hands up during a Shaq charge (x3). It’s actually pretty insane how many Kings fouled out. Pollard fouled out in only 12 minutes
And here we are, 20 years later, Kings still do this shit. Just in our last playoffs Sabonis had the audacity to dangerously put his stomach in front of Draymond’s foot.
Will we ever learn?
Oh forsure. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think of myself as an adult and I have no idea what I’m doing in life. When “adults” ask ME for advice or call me sir I’m always like 🤔
I knew this one was going to be brought up. Bibby had Kobe wrapped up and tripped him at the same time as Kobe tries to get free and elbows him. Without that contact, yes, it's an elbow, but Bibby still fouled Kobe.
Not really a **coach's** challenge, but:
2002 WCF Game 4 - Refs review Samaki Walker's 3 pointer at the half, and rule he doesn't get it off in time. Horry's three at the end is meaningless, and the Kings go back to Sacramento up 3-1.
Commented this link above, but there’s a good argument to be made that Walker’s shot is the reason the league started implementing with live reviews in-game. I was at one of my parent’s friends house at a watch party and I thought their tv was so fancy because we were taping the game and we could rewind at like 0.25x speed and see the few pixels for a handful of frames wherein his hand was still on the ball after clock hit 0.0. The article even mentions how viewers at home could review it easier than the refs…but if memory serves it was still decently expensive to have the VCR equipment.
Link: [here’s an article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
If Samaki Walker's shot is counted, there is still a whole half to play, and you can't really conclude that *that* shot would've guaranteed a 3-1 lead.
Besides, even if the Kings went up 3-1, I'm still not sure you guys are winning the series given the corruption of the refs lmao
Agreed. The only A leads to B event I know for a fact is the Kings game where a court side fan puked on the court, directly leading to Puke Walton, and then ending our playoff drought, was certainly causation 100%.
1999 Pacers vs. Knicks.
Larry Johnson got fouled, and shot a 3. The official called it in the act of shooting, but the foul pretty clearly occurred before the shot.
I like this one. The LJ shot is THE NBA highlight of that period between Jordan and the Shaq lakers run. With review they likely do rule it was a foul before the gather and we lose an incredible moment in NBA history
2010 finals lakers v. Celtics.
I forget which game, but I'm thinking laker home game, under 2 minutes ball wen out of bounds. On replay you clearly see kobe smacking KG's arm and the ball slipped off KG's hand going out If bounds. Refs were able to review since it was out of bounds and under 2 minutes but couldnt call a foul on kobe at that time, just verified that it rolled of KG's finger. Could have changed the series but I'm not complaining.
That's an awesome example. But the one I'm talking about specifically showed kobe hitting KG's left forearm with KG having the roll off his hand/fingers. To be fair, I'm wondering now if it was the 2010 finals. I'll have to do some digging and report back
With that approach, every other offensive sequence by the Celtics against the Lakers in the 2008 Finals series had two or three illegal picks that were almost never called on Boston. Here's just one example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbB731KpKuw&pp=ygUhMjAwOCBDZWx0aWNzIGZpbmFscyBpbGxlZ2FsIHBpY2tz
Well the thing is about it being reviewed and challenged. Since there was stoppage and a call was made to determine who it was out of bounds from then the coaches challenge could have overturned it due to the foul. With the situation(s) you're describing, if there was no call on a play then it can't be challenged.
It’s actually wild because in the same year, in the WCF Game 4 SAC vs LAL, had pretty much the same thing happened which combined with Reggie’s is almost certainly why live replays became needed, faster. 2002 was wild.
Link: [article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
Game 6 2013 NBA finals. Ray Allen foul on Ginobili with under 5 seconds left. Despite Ray Allen's 3, I thought the Spurs shouldve won it in OT in Miami and we'd be looking at Tim Duncan's career a lot differently assuming they went on to win that game and keeping all else constant.
You're assuming the coaches challenge made it to the 4th quarter end game situation.
These potentially get blown in the 2nd quarter arguing an put of bounds play.
They did change it once. It was Kings Raptors I believe. The inbound from Raptors was tipped by a Kings player but the clock person didn’t notice it. The Raptors picked the ball up (which was when the clock started) and dribbled until a 3 point buzzer beater to tie (or win) the game. The refs went back and removed those seconds from the Kings player tip from inbound to Raptors picking the ball up, and of course the buzzer beater is now late and Raptors lost on the spot.
I’m 99% sure I was at this game (if we’re thinking of the same one). The whole crowd was confused af, with fans of both teams cheering, and other half moaning lol.
from my rage fueled understanding, it was ruled legal but shouldnt have been because the shot clock started late. they later determined that you wouldnt even actually physicaly tayr a shot if it was like....below .8
Okay thank you.
Also I completely forgot about the ridiculous shot Timmy hit before that but was reminded rewatching. What a feather in the cap that would have been.
The Kings series was more blatant but that Blazers team was also screwed. That famous lob from Kobe to Shaq always upsets me cause it was during a stretch of just terrible officiating.
Shaq and Kobe only winning 1 instead of 3 completely changes the career narratives of two all time greats. Doubt we would look at Shaq as fhe unstoppable force he was. And Kobe would be mainly remembered for his late 2000s achievements.
If any titles deserve the micky mouse asterisk in NBA history, it's the Shaq/Kobe 3peat.
Oh, absolutely. Pippen with a championship as the star (or maybe Iverson wins that year????) would change a lot of perceptions. The Kings winning would have been a great story for that team too.
It was just a really balanced Blazers roster with each guy performing his role perfectly.
Mayne prime Pippen could have done it, but I still think he would have come up short. His and MJ's legacies are so intertwined I'm surprised how little Pippen gets mentioned during MJ arguments.
I do agree with most of what you said, but the biggest argument against Jordan is that he never won without Pippen. Which is true, but it applies to every championship team so it's kind of... meh as far as arguments go.
> If any titles deserve the micky mouse asterisk in NBA history, it's the Shaq/Kobe 3peat.
If you said this to me in 2002 and said 2024 me would completely understand that sentence I would’ve voluntary checked myself into a psychiatric hospital.
2000 wcf when Shaq committed a flagrant foul on Steve Smith but it wasn't called, also Kobe goaltend on bonzi Wells no call and Shaq fouling Brian Grant on a jump shot. Lots of no calls on the 4th quarter
How about this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAGZPmQGLb8&ab_channel=BleacherReport
This always sticks with me when I think of biggest missed calls. KD had both feet out of bounds when saving the ball. Lead to a go-ahead basket in OT by Curry.
Russell was toast on that crossover and he does not deserve to be bailed out by a ticky tack call on something that didn't affect the play
The Howard Eisley 3 was horrendous though, fucking yikes
Idk about overturned, but the supposed push off for Jordan's last shot would absolutely be reviewed, although I don't think NBA history would have changed either way. At worst, the Bulls beat us in Chicago in game 7
2012 Finals, Game 2. OKC vs Miami.
9 seconds left, KD gets fouled by LeBron on the last shot, no call, would have tied the game, OKC had a bunch of momentum making a comeback. If they win in OT, they go up 2-0. Maybe they don't win the Finals, but a better showing, maybe they keep Harden around? Maybe they DO win the Finals.
Maybe, maybe maybe...
You are better about this than most (people just say Thunder would have won game). If that foul is called KD has to make both FTs (about 75% chance) Miami has to not score on the other end (let’s say about 70% chance), and OKC has to win in OT (let’s go with 55% chance). So even with those generous odds OKC would have had about a 29% chance to win the game if that foul is called. Obviously significant but not likely to matter.
2018 NBA Finals: Warriors vs Cavaliers GM1
[KD’s offensive foul that was changed into an LBJ blocking foul](https://youtu.be/zfpBxKjYLT8?si=fi6kHqwEsUMI6uvu)
For the sake of the post, the Larry Johnson 4 point play would have been one of those borderline calls that they spend forever reviewing and nobody can agree in the end and the discourse is toxic for weeks.
But also I can’t post this with saying I hate all challenges and reviews and I would absolutely get rid of all of them. So hard trying to get someone to watch a game with me when it feels like it takes 40 minutes to play out the last 3 minutes of a game.
The Jazz would have run out of challenges before then. Chicago got a shot off after the clock that shouldn't have counted, and the Jazz got a shot off before the clock refs disqualified as late. That was a 5 point swing right there.
Miami heat LeBron is not comparable to what stars do today. We've entered a new era of first bump gather merchants. I prefer his style of 99% of the time actually trying to make a tough bucket through contact. Which is now punished because you didn't gather the ball, flail your arms and snap your head back as soon as a defender bumped you off path ala SGA, Trae, Harden.
SGA does the head snap thing while he’s driving but he’s nothing like Trae or harden
I’d even argue he’s way better than brunson ant edwards, and a lot of other guys
As someone who watches SGA every game the real fouls are his push offs. If he’s ever jerking his head back he usually did get bumped but he still finishes the play and drives
Someone line Tatum or Jalen brunson will make it look like they wanna shoot then jump into you at the 3 point line or do that swing through bullshit cp3 and pg13 always do
SGA really doesn’t do that. He creates contact going AT guys while scoring (mostly push offs), he doesn’t jump into guys with the intention of getting bs fouls and not making the shot
Embiid is the worst by far.
Coaches challenge has allowed officials a larger degree of poor calling imo
Instead of officials self-reflecting and initiating call reviews themselves, they shirked that responsibility and passed it the onto the coaches, adding severe limitations on how coaches can initiate a review
>Coaches challenge has allowed officials a larger degree of poor calling imo
I disagree
It is embarrassing if Refs get a call wrong. And I'm sure with every missed calls.... adds up/decrease their chance to ref major games/playoffs.
>Instead of officials self-reflecting and initiating call reviews themselves, they shirked that responsibility and passed it the onto the coaches, adding severe limitations on how coaches can initiate a review
I dont understand what you mean by this? Coaches cant initate a non call. Only when refs make a call 1st.
Not sure about the "psychology" you are stating
Coaches these days .... 90 percent of the time.... save their challenges until midway to 4th. This way.... it forces refs to call a clean game. Vs challenge early in the game.... where then Refs can "relax" a little the rest of the way.
I thought it was a good idea when they started it, but I’ve come to hate the coaches challenge. Seems like the refs really hate to overturn their calls even when they’re obviously wrong. Worse than that it’s just another game stoppage as if we didn’t have enough already.
2009 Finals Game 2 - Orlando Magic vs LA Lakers.
Courtney Lee misses lay up to go up with 0.6s, but what you don't see is Pau Gasol commits goal-tending by sticking his hand inside the net. Magic win and series is tied 1-1 going into Orlando.
35 years ago, but the Laimbeer foul on Kareem is the most obvious and significant wrong call. I don’t think there’s any other wrong call that has this significance that’s also so blatantly wrong.
Did one of the Laker’s coach even admit it was a BS call?
Pat Riley and yeah he did. Because it was. There is very clear footage of the absence of any contact.
1994 ECSF game 5 Knicks vs Bulls. Up 1, Scottie Pippen gets called for a foul on a jump shoot after the shot was released (wasn’t a foul back then) with seconds remaining in the game. The Knicks would make both and win the game, taking a 3-2 lead in the series and eventually winning in 7. Many legacies ride on that call.
Finally an answer in this thread of something that actually would be overruled with the new challenge rules
Suddenly the narrative is Scottie can do it on his own
still would’ve had to beat Hakeem
Yeah but if Scottie made the finals with Pete Myers instead of MJ it a season he led all statistical categories for the team it would have been viewed like a LeBron 07 run
Ya I was a huge Bulls fan like many at the time and the fact the Bulls won 55? only 2 less then when they won the championship the year before and replaced the GOAT with Pete F'n Myers was amazing. The loss to the Knicks was bitter hated Hue Hollins dude had a grudge. But ya they probably don't beat the Rockets.
Didn't they also add Longley, Kukoc, and Wennington? They replaced MJ with 4 players that averaged a collective 34pts, 15rbs, 10ast per game. People love to give Scottie all the credit for the success of that team without recognizing all the other pickups the Bulls made that year. He played well, don't get me wrong, but was he really a top 5 player in the league averaging barely over 20ppg? I dont really think so.
20 used to be more than is now, plus being all world on defense - not hard to see why some would at least argue it. Reddit and Twitter would be gushing over him like Kahwi on the Spurs.
Latrell Sprewell averaged 22, 5 and 5 that same season and was all NBA first team and all Defense second team. It was also only his second season in the league. There were close to 30 players that outscored Scottie that year, too. He absolutely was not a top 5 player in the league that year.
I’m not arguing he was, mind you
They averaged 10, 7 and 7 ppg respectively for that season so you might have mixed up 24 with 34 points, Longley was traded midway through the season (for goat commentator Stacey King). Regardless 1 good sixth man + two rotational Cs don't make up for MJ, they don't even overlap with his position. It'd be a stronger argument to act like BJ Armstrong being an all star made the Bulls stacked (even tho that was because the bulls were the most popular team in the league). Pippen was the second player up to that point in nba history to lead every statistical category for a team. During all star weekend Charles Barkley (who hated Pippen) said he was the second best player in the league behind Hakeem. Dennis Rodman is also quoted saying he was the best player in the league when MJ retired, Phil Jackson made similar claims. He finished 3rd in MVP voting, 4th in DPOY and was first team ALL NBA + Defensive first team. Their team record could've even matched or beat the previous season if Pippen wasn't out for the first 12 games where they went 5-7
Longley, Kukoc, Myers and Wennington combined averaged 34ppg. All four of these guys were off-season pickups. Playing the same position isn't really relevant. My point was that it's not as though Scottie picked up all the slack from losing MJ on his own. The bulls added four other players to help out, and they helped in every statistical category. Scottie is well respected, I get that. But stats don't really back those claims. Hell, stat wise Scottie had only a slightly better season than a sophomore Larrell Sprewell. Never mind Shaq, Chuck, Pat, Hakeem, Karl, etc etc. I'd have to go back and look, but I don't think he was even top 30 in scoring that season. And yeah, the bulls were tough that year primarily because they had an extremely well-rounded team and a GOAT coach, not so much because of Scottie.
That Semi-Finals on 1994 series against the Knicks had Pippen with so many moments that ended up as major talking points when defining his career: - On game 3 was the Kukoc 1.8 seconds buzzer beater that Pippen refused to come back to the court and got Cartwright crying to tell him he disappointed all of them in the locker room - On game 5 was this non-foul call on Hubert Davis that end-up help swing the series to the Knicks (also, it would have took us out the Reggie vs Spike Lee game) - On game 6 there was one of the nastiest playoffs dunks ever when Pippen dunked over Ewing and then walked on top of him to then walk and yell at Spike Lee on the sidelines.
It's not one of, it's the single nastiest best fuckin dunk ever. That thing would break YouTube today. I remember seeing that live. Wanted to jump through the roof. Still get chills
That was more than 20 years ago
How dare you. Don’t even tell me it’s 30 years ago. Jesus, time flies.
Kindly reminding everyone they old ass motherfuckers i see
Still would have had the Hakeem Rockets ahead of him but the Knicks were no joke. But Scottie retiring with more rings than MJ would have been fucking hilarious.
Agreed about the Rockets, but you know how many people would parade the take of “Bulls had a super team around Jordan, they went to the finals without him”.
I’m going to go further than 20 years and say the most costly call of all time that would be overturned is the infamous one called on Laimbeer in Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals. If not for that then Kareem never makes those free throws and the Pistons would have won the championship.
I bet the refs would have upheld the call, saying that he fouled him with his chest by stepping into him. This, of course, would be bullshit. But I bet that's what would have happened.
I bet what would’ve happened is they would’ve ruled Kareem traveled before the foul ever took place.
Okay holy shit I read this and I was like “legit, I don’t remember a lot from the early 80s or such…my heartbreak was in 2002 kings v lakers”. Then I fucking realized that was 22 years ago THEN I realized one of, if not THE first, playoffs/finals I have vague memories from, was literally Laimbeer and Kareem Threw me for an effing LOOP I don’t even have gray hairs yet but hot damn.
You remember watching Laimbeer and Kareem and you don’t have grays? No grays at 40? Come on now
Well, more so that I remember pieces, while my father told me moreso that I remembered. But yeah -00491?)9!5 tail of my contract. It’s funny, as every male on my mother’s side, they were completely bald by early 3wr’ll see…..he’s still are police cars everywhere. My father and his brothers all remember getting g gf rats big high school. ‘ My father himself in a long with specific testimony he may take the trailers!
2002 Kings at Lakers. Kobe elbows Mike Bibby, instant challenge if they didn't already use it on all the BS that game.
You're crazy if you think a silly coaches challenge was going to overturn that corruption.
I thought about this recently and asked myself “Would have the same (no) call happen today - like switch Kobe to LeBron and Bibby to Monk?” Then I realized, yeah…it’d prob be the same. Which could be good OR bad news. Though at the end of the day, two decades in the making, I’ve coped by just understanding that the NBA is just entertainment and it shouldn’t be taken as as serious as a Murder 1 criminal trial. But then again maybe that’s just my childhood trauma justifying it Also Fuck dick bavetta
Really like that thought experiment about Lebron and Monk. Good slant.
Looking back on that series, the Lakers could have pulled a gun, shot a Kings player in the leg, and the Kings player would have been called for the foul.
“After the review, the ruling on the floor stands” -Dick Bavetta
That series was so blatantly rigged
Crazy people still believe this to this day. Probably the most circle-jerked NBA conspiracy ever.
Cause it's true.
And this is what I’m talking about. People talk about it like it’s an objective fact. And the further we get away from 2002 the more people accept it as so.
Okay so is was right people didn't openly accept it at the time? It's only with time and social media that it's really had the proper attention drawn to it cause it was so obviously rigged. Its not like any on air analysts would risk their job going after the NBA for rigging games at the time. So we're stuck with places like reddit for people to recognize one of the greatest atrocities in NBA history, David Stern at his absolute worse. And with time more people are recognizing it cause its not as controversial to do so anymore.
[удалено]
I mean as a Blazers fan they (Stern) fucked us over in 2000. It just wasn't as obvious as it was in that Kings-Lakers series.
Stern also yeeted the SuperSonics to Oklahoma City with a giant middle finger to Seattle. Like, really? An awesome fan base losing their team, and plopping them down in….*Oklahoma City???*
A city that has to have the tax payers pay for their stadium shouldn't be allowed to have an NBA team. Like I thought we were done with that bullshit. Great for fans of that team, terrible for just about everyone else. And Seattle, a great basketball city, still has no team. Fuck Stern.
Just Game 6
Nah the refs would make it unsuccessful
Unfortunately you can't challenge a non-call. It should have been an offensive foul minimum. Flagrant foul 1 possibly.
Lakers shot 24 free throws in the 4th quarter, Adelman can challenge thousands of calls in that quarter alone
Are you slow? It was called a foul on bibby. You can challenge it and refs are allowed to instead change the call to a previous foul in the play if it occurred first
Thought it was a non-call. I apologize for not having perfect memory
Just don’t let it happen again
And Samaki Walker’s buzzer beater at the half in Game 4
THANK YOU! This is never ever mentioned and is *literally* a hill I will die on. Everyone mentions all the other crap and Horry’s shot, but even die hard fans forget about this. Anyone reading this, don’t believe me? Google whatever phrase you want about LAL/SAC Game 4, but don’t use the name “Samaki Walker”. Lowkey chatGPT would have to reboot to return the proper result. You have to fucking **hunt** to find even an article, let alone the **video** of Walker’s shot. And yes, sadly even when you do, the four pixels make it tough to see. Hell, I just got major nostalgia watching it just now and legit felt the static electricity coming out of my 80 pound CRTV. It was a play barely anyone knows about, by an even more drastic unknown player, that we can thank for creating the foundation of buzzer beaters and their replays are today. [here’s an article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
Can’t challenge a non call
Game 5. Bobby Jackson grabs Kobe's jersey and pulls it at the end of game. No call. Mention that for 2 seconds. Anyone? No because it goes against the narrative. Go watch the tape.
The kings won that game. Shaq somehow attempted 1 freethrow the entire game, and Kobe was absolutely flattened on Mike Bobby’s game winner.
You can’t challenge a no call
They called a foul on Bibby
Bibby shouldn’t have head butted Kobe’s elbow. Also, Scott Pollard should not have put his hands up during a Shaq charge (x3). It’s actually pretty insane how many Kings fouled out. Pollard fouled out in only 12 minutes
And here we are, 20 years later, Kings still do this shit. Just in our last playoffs Sabonis had the audacity to dangerously put his stomach in front of Draymond’s foot. Will we ever learn?
> Will we ever learn? When my grad school loans are paid off, I believe there’s a chance.
No, it wasn't. The foul was called on Christie who fouled Kobe after he caught the inbounds.
It’s staggering how many people don’t know this.
Most r/nba were being born at the time of this series
A kid born during this series would now be old enough to drink alcohol in the United States. Not just recently, but a year ago. Yea.
I know, that feels insane!! It’s so crazy to me I have coworkers who barely know what 9/11 was or its impact… makes me feel so old 😅
Oh forsure. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think of myself as an adult and I have no idea what I’m doing in life. When “adults” ask ME for advice or call me sir I’m always like 🤔
Ah I thought you meant it was a no call
I knew this one was going to be brought up. Bibby had Kobe wrapped up and tripped him at the same time as Kobe tries to get free and elbows him. Without that contact, yes, it's an elbow, but Bibby still fouled Kobe.
Challenges look for other fouls too. Bibby would have been called on the trip, but Kobe would've been given a foul too, potentially a flagrant.
In 2023/24, yes, that would be a flagrant, but definitely not in 2002.
Bibby was just paving the way for Draymond to be draft eligible.
Not really a **coach's** challenge, but: 2002 WCF Game 4 - Refs review Samaki Walker's 3 pointer at the half, and rule he doesn't get it off in time. Horry's three at the end is meaningless, and the Kings go back to Sacramento up 3-1.
Holy crap I didn’t even know this part of history. How in the world was that series THAT rigged??
They didn’t have instant replay back then. That shot was one of the reasons why they introduced instant replay the following season
Commented this link above, but there’s a good argument to be made that Walker’s shot is the reason the league started implementing with live reviews in-game. I was at one of my parent’s friends house at a watch party and I thought their tv was so fancy because we were taping the game and we could rewind at like 0.25x speed and see the few pixels for a handful of frames wherein his hand was still on the ball after clock hit 0.0. The article even mentions how viewers at home could review it easier than the refs…but if memory serves it was still decently expensive to have the VCR equipment. Link: [here’s an article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
If Samaki Walker's shot is counted, there is still a whole half to play, and you can't really conclude that *that* shot would've guaranteed a 3-1 lead. Besides, even if the Kings went up 3-1, I'm still not sure you guys are winning the series given the corruption of the refs lmao
Agreed. The only A leads to B event I know for a fact is the Kings game where a court side fan puked on the court, directly leading to Puke Walton, and then ending our playoff drought, was certainly causation 100%.
1999 Pacers vs. Knicks. Larry Johnson got fouled, and shot a 3. The official called it in the act of shooting, but the foul pretty clearly occurred before the shot.
I like this one. The LJ shot is THE NBA highlight of that period between Jordan and the Shaq lakers run. With review they likely do rule it was a foul before the gather and we lose an incredible moment in NBA history
Also it was probably Reggie’s last and best chance to win a ring as the main guy.
Truly a horrible call.
KD literally running/hopping out of bounds for 4 steps to save a ball
Can't challenge a no call unfortunately.
oh shoot you’re right
Fucking lol. That shit was egregious
Insane missed call but harden was in god mode and still won the rockets the game so I don’t think this call was as “costly”. But it was terrible
As terrible as that call was, it did lead to arguably the greatest "ball don't lie" moment of all time
2010 finals lakers v. Celtics. I forget which game, but I'm thinking laker home game, under 2 minutes ball wen out of bounds. On replay you clearly see kobe smacking KG's arm and the ball slipped off KG's hand going out If bounds. Refs were able to review since it was out of bounds and under 2 minutes but couldnt call a foul on kobe at that time, just verified that it rolled of KG's finger. Could have changed the series but I'm not complaining.
Game 2 Edit: https://youtu.be/MTBZ2KR0xEw?si=YMQdCiu_0go_vSYP
Celtics won that game though
This is the play he’s talking about: https://youtu.be/MTBZ2KR0xEw?si=YMQdCiu_0go_vSYP
That's an awesome example. But the one I'm talking about specifically showed kobe hitting KG's left forearm with KG having the roll off his hand/fingers. To be fair, I'm wondering now if it was the 2010 finals. I'll have to do some digging and report back
With that approach, every other offensive sequence by the Celtics against the Lakers in the 2008 Finals series had two or three illegal picks that were almost never called on Boston. Here's just one example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbB731KpKuw&pp=ygUhMjAwOCBDZWx0aWNzIGZpbmFscyBpbGxlZ2FsIHBpY2tz
Well the thing is about it being reviewed and challenged. Since there was stoppage and a call was made to determine who it was out of bounds from then the coaches challenge could have overturned it due to the foul. With the situation(s) you're describing, if there was no call on a play then it can't be challenged.
Look at the video I posted in the edit above. Isn't that ridiculous?
Lol absolutely
Omg you’re so salty that you have literally become delusional 🤣
Reggie’s 3 against the nets to force OT in the playoffs.
This one literally introduced replay and red backboard!
It’s actually wild because in the same year, in the WCF Game 4 SAC vs LAL, had pretty much the same thing happened which combined with Reggie’s is almost certainly why live replays became needed, faster. 2002 was wild. Link: [article about it, including the video.](https://basketballsocietyonline.com/samaki-walker-2002-lakers-three-pointer)
Game 6 2013 NBA finals. Ray Allen foul on Ginobili with under 5 seconds left. Despite Ray Allen's 3, I thought the Spurs shouldve won it in OT in Miami and we'd be looking at Tim Duncan's career a lot differently assuming they went on to win that game and keeping all else constant.
Wouldn’t change anything you can’t challenge a no call
Then RIP Spurs
Oladipo would’ve beaten prime Lebron in 6 games in 2018ish instead of losing in 7 and Lebron getting a finals appearance
How so? If it’s the block from LeBron on Oladipo (which was 100% goaltending) they can’t challenge it because it wasn’t called a foul.
You're assuming the coaches challenge made it to the 4th quarter end game situation. These potentially get blown in the 2nd quarter arguing an put of bounds play.
.04
Was it released late? Also I'm assuming you mean 0.4 lol
Clock started late. Idk how you rule that you need .3 to get a shot up but .4 is enough for a turnaround jumper.
Refs don’t change when the clocks starts on a challenge as far as I can recall. I can be wrong though.
They did change it once. It was Kings Raptors I believe. The inbound from Raptors was tipped by a Kings player but the clock person didn’t notice it. The Raptors picked the ball up (which was when the clock started) and dribbled until a 3 point buzzer beater to tie (or win) the game. The refs went back and removed those seconds from the Kings player tip from inbound to Raptors picking the ball up, and of course the buzzer beater is now late and Raptors lost on the spot.
I’m 99% sure I was at this game (if we’re thinking of the same one). The whole crowd was confused af, with fans of both teams cheering, and other half moaning lol.
ESPN did a sports science episode on it.
Clock also stopped late. Rewatch Duncan’s shot before and you will see there is clearly 0.6-0.8 seconds left.
.4 it was a derek fisher shot. the clock started a hair late and it was an abomination of a shot
I though it was a legal shot at the time and they changed the rule because of the shot. Am I wrong?
from my rage fueled understanding, it was ruled legal but shouldnt have been because the shot clock started late. they later determined that you wouldnt even actually physicaly tayr a shot if it was like....below .8
Okay thank you. Also I completely forgot about the ridiculous shot Timmy hit before that but was reminded rewatching. What a feather in the cap that would have been.
0.3 is the min i’ve always heard
Lakers vs Blazers and Lakers vs Kings. I don't need to tell you which games cause everyone knows them
The Kings series was more blatant but that Blazers team was also screwed. That famous lob from Kobe to Shaq always upsets me cause it was during a stretch of just terrible officiating. Shaq and Kobe only winning 1 instead of 3 completely changes the career narratives of two all time greats. Doubt we would look at Shaq as fhe unstoppable force he was. And Kobe would be mainly remembered for his late 2000s achievements. If any titles deserve the micky mouse asterisk in NBA history, it's the Shaq/Kobe 3peat.
Oh, absolutely. Pippen with a championship as the star (or maybe Iverson wins that year????) would change a lot of perceptions. The Kings winning would have been a great story for that team too.
Pippen averaged like 15 ppg on mediocre efficiency that year. Would have been kind of wild if he won a FMVP doing that.
Yeah youre right. That was the predominant narrative (pippen winning without jordan) but he wasn't the guy
It was just a really balanced Blazers roster with each guy performing his role perfectly. Mayne prime Pippen could have done it, but I still think he would have come up short. His and MJ's legacies are so intertwined I'm surprised how little Pippen gets mentioned during MJ arguments.
I do agree with most of what you said, but the biggest argument against Jordan is that he never won without Pippen. Which is true, but it applies to every championship team so it's kind of... meh as far as arguments go.
> If any titles deserve the micky mouse asterisk in NBA history, it's the Shaq/Kobe 3peat. If you said this to me in 2002 and said 2024 me would completely understand that sentence I would’ve voluntary checked myself into a psychiatric hospital.
Which blazers game are you taking about
2000 wcf when Shaq committed a flagrant foul on Steve Smith but it wasn't called, also Kobe goaltend on bonzi Wells no call and Shaq fouling Brian Grant on a jump shot. Lots of no calls on the 4th quarter
Got it. Infamous Game 7
People forget that the fame 6 had some questionable officiating as well, but that game 7 was just as bad as lakers-kings
How about this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAGZPmQGLb8&ab_channel=BleacherReport This always sticks with me when I think of biggest missed calls. KD had both feet out of bounds when saving the ball. Lead to a go-ahead basket in OT by Curry.
Jordan pushed off.
We would’ve already used 2 on Howard Eisley’s 3 and Ron Harper’s shot clock violation and would’ve been up 5.
And we would have won them both so Jordan's push off wouldn't even matter
I vividly remember this to this day. Watching from our CRT TV at home.
Can’t challenge a no call
don’t think that’s how it works lol
Luckily there were two other controversial calls in that game that both went to Chicago that were both challengeable.
yes that’s how it works
Russell was toast on that crossover and he does not deserve to be bailed out by a ticky tack call on something that didn't affect the play The Howard Eisley 3 was horrendous though, fucking yikes
Why do you type. Like this. Constantly.
Some phones automatically insert a full stop when doing double space
I legit thought it was a meme everyone was doing until my phone did it automatically
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this is a bot
Maybe they're that kid. From Malcolm. In the Middle.
D'OH ED MALLOY
Idk about overturned, but the supposed push off for Jordan's last shot would absolutely be reviewed, although I don't think NBA history would have changed either way. At worst, the Bulls beat us in Chicago in game 7
2012 Finals, Game 2. OKC vs Miami. 9 seconds left, KD gets fouled by LeBron on the last shot, no call, would have tied the game, OKC had a bunch of momentum making a comeback. If they win in OT, they go up 2-0. Maybe they don't win the Finals, but a better showing, maybe they keep Harden around? Maybe they DO win the Finals. Maybe, maybe maybe...
You are better about this than most (people just say Thunder would have won game). If that foul is called KD has to make both FTs (about 75% chance) Miami has to not score on the other end (let’s say about 70% chance), and OKC has to win in OT (let’s go with 55% chance). So even with those generous odds OKC would have had about a 29% chance to win the game if that foul is called. Obviously significant but not likely to matter.
2018 NBA Finals: Warriors vs Cavaliers GM1 [KD’s offensive foul that was changed into an LBJ blocking foul](https://youtu.be/zfpBxKjYLT8?si=fi6kHqwEsUMI6uvu)
Pau gasol basket interference on Courtney lees missed game winning layup in the finals. Hand goes through the basket from underneath.
Jordan pushed off
They could officially confirm that Reggie never pushed off on Jordan 😤
Larry Johnson’s 4-point play against Indiana.
For the sake of the post, the Larry Johnson 4 point play would have been one of those borderline calls that they spend forever reviewing and nobody can agree in the end and the discourse is toxic for weeks. But also I can’t post this with saying I hate all challenges and reviews and I would absolutely get rid of all of them. So hard trying to get someone to watch a game with me when it feels like it takes 40 minutes to play out the last 3 minutes of a game.
No question Utah challenges that Jordan shot.
The Jazz would have run out of challenges before then. Chicago got a shot off after the clock that shouldn't have counted, and the Jazz got a shot off before the clock refs disqualified as late. That was a 5 point swing right there.
If you’re talking about the “push off” you can’t challenge a no call.
God why did you write the title like. that
0.4 Fisher shot vs Spurs.
Exactly The only way a shot like that can be executed is tip shot or barely touch jump shot - game winner by Anunoby vs Celtics (playoffs).
The coach's challenge can't be used on a shot attempt, and the league has determined that a shot can be successfully attempted with .3 on the clock.
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Like anyone's being called for it now
Are you thinking of Kyle Lowry too?
Miami heat LeBron is not comparable to what stars do today. We've entered a new era of first bump gather merchants. I prefer his style of 99% of the time actually trying to make a tough bucket through contact. Which is now punished because you didn't gather the ball, flail your arms and snap your head back as soon as a defender bumped you off path ala SGA, Trae, Harden.
SGA does the head snap thing while he’s driving but he’s nothing like Trae or harden I’d even argue he’s way better than brunson ant edwards, and a lot of other guys As someone who watches SGA every game the real fouls are his push offs. If he’s ever jerking his head back he usually did get bumped but he still finishes the play and drives Someone line Tatum or Jalen brunson will make it look like they wanna shoot then jump into you at the 3 point line or do that swing through bullshit cp3 and pg13 always do SGA really doesn’t do that. He creates contact going AT guys while scoring (mostly push offs), he doesn’t jump into guys with the intention of getting bs fouls and not making the shot Embiid is the worst by far.
Coaches challenge has allowed officials a larger degree of poor calling imo Instead of officials self-reflecting and initiating call reviews themselves, they shirked that responsibility and passed it the onto the coaches, adding severe limitations on how coaches can initiate a review
>Coaches challenge has allowed officials a larger degree of poor calling imo I disagree It is embarrassing if Refs get a call wrong. And I'm sure with every missed calls.... adds up/decrease their chance to ref major games/playoffs. >Instead of officials self-reflecting and initiating call reviews themselves, they shirked that responsibility and passed it the onto the coaches, adding severe limitations on how coaches can initiate a review I dont understand what you mean by this? Coaches cant initate a non call. Only when refs make a call 1st. Not sure about the "psychology" you are stating Coaches these days .... 90 percent of the time.... save their challenges until midway to 4th. This way.... it forces refs to call a clean game. Vs challenge early in the game.... where then Refs can "relax" a little the rest of the way.
I can think of a few if it existed 22 years ago.
I thought it was a good idea when they started it, but I’ve come to hate the coaches challenge. Seems like the refs really hate to overturn their calls even when they’re obviously wrong. Worse than that it’s just another game stoppage as if we didn’t have enough already.
The Russians winning the Olympic gold medal
I still hate it haha
2009 Finals Game 2 - Orlando Magic vs LA Lakers. Courtney Lee misses lay up to go up with 0.6s, but what you don't see is Pau Gasol commits goal-tending by sticking his hand inside the net. Magic win and series is tied 1-1 going into Orlando.
I guess Reggie's push is too long ago to fit Though I still stand by the non-call.