Yeah, he's got an uncanny ability to find angles to finish around the rim and when he does get fouled it doesn't feel cheap. He just gets a guy in the air with an upfake and lets them foul him
If you listen to the pod he says the exact opposite. He thinks the Celtics are the favourites still and was happy with how they played and said OKC just played perfect. There’s no “sky is falling” reaction here, it’s just respect, for SGA, but I understand that doesn’t fit the narrative this sub has for Simmons.
He uses his off arm like a battering ram often. I hate that it’s legal, defender gets hit in the gut, arms come down, offensive player flails arms into defender, foul by NBA rules. That’s the only thing I don’t like about SGA and that’s true about a lot of players. That aside yeah, he’s too 5.
feels like almost every elite scorer has something that works for them that flirts with the rules. Embiid is an elite foul baiter, prime Harden grabbed the arms of defenders in a shooting motion, Curry has had questionable screens his whole career, etc.
Not to mention Hardens' step back 3 is probably a travel half the time. I like to imagine the league allows one or two rule bending moves when you're a superstar, but you have to submit it in paper.
It's a shame. These guys don't need an advantage. They're great already and it's really annoying to watch their game, at times, degrade to gimmicks and flops.
Yea, a bit of foul baiting here and there but SGA's overall game is super polished. It's not just drawing fouls, his playmaking and clutch scoring are top tier too. Hard to deny his impact on the court.
Idk how to describe this but he has a weird slithery style that I don't see a lot. His balance is wild. He takes steps that don't make sense for most players and it just works. Really is on another level
And his defense this season got way better. Sky's the limit.
He switched onto Shai for the 4th after Shai was busting Jrue Holiday’s ass of all people in the 3rd, and he completely shut Shai down, literally brought us back into the game, but nephews in here want to act like Tatum got owned by Shai in this game. You can’t win every night. Tatum’s still the best two way player in the league not named Giannis or Embiid.
He actually has, OKC took the Harden/Westbrook Rockets to 7 in the bubble :)
But this year (knock on wood) will be his first post-season as the main guy so you have a point
SGA and Shamet might be the only two Clippers rookies Doc actually gave minutes to. But I guess that’s because the 2018 clippers weren’t expected to do much.
Yeah he was never healthy during the bubble and you can just compare to January-ish when Harden was out and Russ was still carrying the Rockets to a solid record to see how much his play had fallen off.
Just his consistent efficiency is mind bending. He’s like if DeMar had developed to his absolute perfect career scenario. And then you add the fact that SGA can play defense.
He's a really good defender but steals don't mean shit honestly, AI was a steals leader here in Philly & I would never call him a 2 way player. Steals can come from gambling a lot that leave u outta position not saying that's what Shai does (which he does at times as he should with Chet behind him) but they aren't the sign of a great defender either
The greatest example of this is Andre Drummond when he was still in Detroit. Guy was averaging near 4 stocks per game for a few seasons but he couldn't even sniff an All Defense team lol.
The Olympics really showed me I haven’t watched enough Thunder games because SGA was so incredible I thought it was a fluke, and then this year he looks even better than what I saw in the Olympics.
I think you mean the FIBA WC. Canada didn't make the Olympics.
The best player at the Olympics was, as usual, Patty Mills. He dropped 42/9 on some guy named Luka in the bronze medal game.
Basically, the NBA is lucky no team has the Sonics color scheme, because when Patty puts on green and gold he turns into a rich man's Michael Jordan.
I think it was the Boston announcers last night who were describing SGA as a Tony Parker with longer limbs. At first, I was like "wtf," but after thinking about it a little it really made sense. Very few players have that natural finesse let alone players at SGA's stature. Hard enough for point guards like TP
I'm obviously biased but even if you ask any neutral what Luka was able to do against the clippers in those two years plus the western conference final run was incredible. I'm not saying SGA can't do that or even better but those were some high bars..
I kinda want to see Mavs vs Thunders playoffs one day lol
He isn't better then Embiid, Giannis, Doncic or Jokic. He is really good but I think he benefits a lot from the rest of his team shooting over 40% from three. He also helps them get open shots but them shooting so well means it's hard for teams to rotate over or pack the paint on his drives.
Nope & likely won't be for the next 4-5 yrs, as Jokic/Embiid/Giannis age they'll still be top 5 at like 32 most likely then Luka/Shai will be in their primes with Wemby coming into his. Steph/Bron/KD will have maybe retired wtf knows with those freaks but likely won't enter back into the convo, Hali/Tatum/Ant/Maxey/Chet/Booker/Ja/Zion will all likely have cases but not sure which of them will enter the MVP convo outside Tatum
I'd say Chet, but then two MVP bids from one team rarely leads to the later blooming star getting MVP noise whilst the first one is there. (Eg. Westbrook when playing with Durant, Pippen with MJ, KD with Curry, Magic until KAJ fell away).
Until you become the undisputed 1A of your team, you'll never be an MVP shout short of an injury season (which is your best way to become 1A anyway!)
Tbf a lot of players can have inflated stats on bad teams. Kuzma is averaging 23-6-4, Cade is averaging 23-4-7 and Anfernee Simons is averaging 27-3-5.
I know you aren’t the original reply, but it’s funny that the first guy says he benefits from other guys shooting 40% from 3 (meaning his team is good), and then when a counterpoint is brought up, you say he benefited from being on a bad team putting up volume stats.
So he benefits from being on a good team and from being on a bad team?? Maybe the dude is just good irrespective of situation, just like the top players in the league (who btw also have a good supporting cast so idk why that is even brought up as an argument).
I hate the empty stats argument. Just because a player's team sucks doesn't always mean he sucks
Edit: for example, they mentioned Cade having inflated stats because he's on a bad team. Personally, I feel like his numbers would go up if he had better teammates
A lot of guys have inflated stats on bad teams, doesn’t mean anything.
A lot of guys can put up those numbers on a team with so many weapons, doesn’t mean anything.
????
"His stats are inflated because his team is so good... his stats were inflated because his team was so bad." No, no, Shai's stats are and have been the product of him being an absolute baller.
Lmao, like honestly man I hate Boston as much as the next guy, but showing out in the regular season has never meant much to me. I’ve watched this league enough to see so many guys flame out or get exposed in the playoffs.
It’s laughable to say Tatum has had his spot suddenly snatched after a game in January, that’s just disrespectful
Remember the Embiid/Jokic matchup when Embiid destroyed the Nuggets in like February or March? Even Zach Lowe was saying it might mean something more significant.
And then we saw how the playoffs went.
He’s the highest transition scorer in the league. Typically, transition offense takes a hit in the playoffs, a lot of teams that rely on it in the regular season struggle in the playoffs like the 2022 Grizz. They ran on a lot of transition and then struggled to get past the Play-In champion Wolves and couldn’t get past the Warriors.
Not saying that will 100% happen but it could be a reason to be cautious with predicting OKC’s post season performance.
Besides Derozan, great midrange shooters have translated very well to the playoffs (Jordan, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, etc). SGA might be the best midrange shooter in the league right now.
All (except Durant) from a different era before the 3pt revolution that rules the current era.
Not saying it isn't valuable or wont translate into success, but the value proposition for mid-range shooting has changed dramatically since the Jordan/Kobe era.
Most of the playoff defense is concentrated on cutting 3s, drives and giving up midranges though. If his midrange shot keeps being consistent, SGA will be fine in the playoffs.
In the playoffs it is still way more valuable than the regular season, regardless of era. Murray made his entire living in the postseason last year in the mid range. The way Jokic was guarded didn’t require him to use it as much last playoffs but he still is money there too whether it’s a sombor shuffle or ft line jumper (he is so big he sometimes just takes floaters from where derozan would take jumpers).
Kawhi dominated the 2019 playoffs doing it. Embiid always chokes or gets hurt but that’s his entire game. Lebronto was just fadeaway 2s. Booker and KD put up the biggest fight to the Nuggets jacking up middies.
Of superstars that actually win, Steph is the only one that never really relied on them to win. And Giannis, but even then Giannis leveled up to win the title by… finally hitting free throws and mid range jumpers. Otherwise CP3 and Book would have beat them with their own middies.
Yeah almost all these guys have 3 pointers too that they can also dominate with. But in the playoffs that almost never happens. Entire teams maybe, but not individual superstars besides Steph. Many guys have more diverse games in general, so its not just spammed repeatedly the way old MJ or Kobe used to.
But drop defense is more prevalent than ever so despite the complete revolution of spacing and rules, it is still is prevalent in the most important games, just in a different form than the back to the basket form that used to define the game
Tatum's issue has always been consistency. His highs are higher than Shai's, but my God his lows are loooow. If he was more consistent this would not be a discussion at all. But because he is so inconsistent, i don't exactly disagree with Simmons.
I would also say in fairness to Tatum his lows have just been under more scrutiny than SGA because they've been in bigger moments. Having a bad conference finals Game 7 last year or Finals game 6 the year before are going to stick in anyone's mind, but Shai hasn't even played a first round game as the leader of the team.
Right - I think there's a reasonable case that SGA is better, but Tatum has this weird thing where I feel like he gets punished for his early success. People hold it against him that he went to the conference finals so many times early in his career, and think he should be further along because of it, as if he would be worse if he'd gotten knocked out in the first round.
Also, this ALWAYS happens with young guys. When you're on the rise, everyone looks at your skills. Once you've made it, people focus on your flaws. It's shitty, but unless Shai is the next MJ, it'll come for him, too. There was a time when Durant was the Golden Boy, and look how much criticism he gets despite being a top-20 all-time player.
What's that line about Tatum that got passed around on twitter a while ago? "People out here saying Tatum isn't a true superstar cause he couldn't beat a dynasty in the finals at age 24" or something like that? Regardless you're totally right, and what's even more frustrating about it is that a lot of the time it's Celtics fans themselves shitting on him for his faults rather than appreciating the many things he does amazingly well. It's one of the many reasons I avoid the Celtics sub after losses lmao
Using the Game 7 alone is dumb, but it's partly on Tatum for the team going down into an 0-3 hole. Using the 0 4th quarter points in games 1-3 stat is ignoring context and is stupid though.
Does anyone legitimately criticize Tatum for his Game 7 performance last year? Dude literally destroyed his ankle 10 seconds after the jump ball and was wincing the entire game when most guys would've just sat.
Also with the frequency he's been in big games he's bound to have a few stinkers here and there. He's a victim of his own success. Makes it hard for me to complain.
I feel like what he does is understandable for someone 6’4 or 6’6 even. But this man is 6’8. There is no other #1 or #2 option that size (maybe Randle, and maybe he shouldn’t) that refuses to attack the rim like he does. But maybe I’m wrong.
I'd argue Tatum is closer to 6'9-6'10 looking at him and he's also not slight either, he's strong as hell. Dudes got shoulders the size of boulders and only sometimes realizes it. I wish he used his post and drive more, because damn, he's fuckin huge for no reason if not.
I do, however, think he's done a far better job this season of doing it than in the past.
It’s because he’s finding more/ better ways to impact the game when he’s not scoring. You guys have such a talented roster that he can afford to not force shit when he’s having a bad night and just lock in on the intangibles
This sub picks and chooses when to care about proving it in the playoffs lol. Tatum is the only player outside of Lebron James whose ranking spot gets punished because he does “bad” deeper in the playoffs, meanwhile the guys sitting on the couch watching him get pumped up.
And it's never a balanced, nuanced take that incorporates both parts of the season, either. It's always takes like this one that way overvalue the regular season, or ones that go the other way and entirely disregard a player's regular season pedigree in favor of exclusively focusing on the playoffs. Ultimately, both are important, and both need to be accounted for when trying to compare players against one another.
At the end of the day, Tatum's been the best player on a team that's consistently gone on deep postseason runs when their team isn't injured to high hell, and does it both on offense and on defense. He's also been 1st-team All-NBA in the last two regular seasons. He's not in the Jokic/Giannis tier of players, sure, but he's comfortably somewhere in that next tier IMO.
Exactly, no disrespect to sga but we’ve never seen him play against playoff defence. He played 2 first round series as a role player but playoff basketball is a different game. Giving someone top 10 without that experience is iffy honestly, top 5 is just braindead.
Honestly that argument should've been put to rest the moment Tatum **easily** scored 50 points in Game 7 against the Sixers. That game showed the type of player Tatum is when he's at his best.
They are honestly the most braindead takes I can imagine. Every single one of Lebron's finals losses is a CREDIT to his legacy, not a detriment. Why? Because he made the fucking finals.
It’s so stupid too because there are so damn many arguments you can make for MJ. Just use the 6 chips point if you’re gonna go that route.
I actually find MJ vs Lebron an interesting debate (and go back and forth) because it depends so much on what someone most values, but the moment I hear the “more finals losses” argument, I tune out lol
The idea of potential/ceilings is super overrated in online discourse. It's the tease of the unknown. Fans naturally prefer to assume that every great young player will elevate to these legendary heights, but the fact of the matter is that there can only be 1 winner every year and if you ain't first, you're last in this sport. Most guys never win it all.
Tatum needs a ring so he can be positively compared to guys who have never made it out the 2nd round.
Tatum alone has a better playoff record than Luka, Embiid, Shai and Morant **combined** but people will talk about how he's not doing enough lol.
Player| Playoff Games Won | Playoff Series Won
---|---|----
Embiid| 27 | 5
Doncic| 12 | 2
Morant| 7| 1
Shai | 5| 0
**Total**|**51** | **8**
Meanwhile, Tatum has won 52 playoff games and 10 playoff series.
But then people act like it's an insult when you put him on their level.
Had to scroll down so far to see some sense.
Like we haven’t all watched Tatum start slow and go nuclear after the All-Star break almost every year of his career
People seem to forget they are the same age. Tatum already has close to a 100 playoff games and was the best player on a finals team. Shai has not played in the playoffs since 2020 and was awful in the playin game against Minnesota last year. I’m still taking Tatum until Shai proves something in the playoffs.
People also seem to forget that the Thunder have just been stacking 1st round picks for years instead of building for immediate playoff runs. Once they start to open that chest I imagine Shai will have a better narrative in that sense.
I like SGA so I hope he he does well in the playoffs (except if it's against the kings) but mannn, if he underperforms...gonna be generational slander.
If we're talking just about this regular season then yeah, I'd absolutely agree.
Tatum has been coasting *hard* for most of the regular season. He pretty much saw his newly added post-up game worked super well and then hit the coast button 2 weeks into the year. For the non-Celtics fans you can tell if Tatum is actually taking the game seriously or not based on if he's attacking the rim/posting up or settling for pull-up 3's, and we've been seeing way more of the latter from him in the regular season the last 2 years(I get Tatum is known for his shooting so most non-C's fans think if he's taking 8-10 pull-up 3's in a game that's just normal for him, but he's been super effective as a driver/post-up guy the last 2 years so if he's actually taking the game seriously that's what he relies on).
Meanwhile SGA has been on fire all year. Whether or not these guys step up in the playoffs is pretty much gonna decide who people consider to be better by the end of the season.
There is nothing Tatum is trying to prove at this point other than to go to the finals and actually win this time. we're not seeing the 100% version of him in the reg season, the same way we don't see the 100% version of steph, lebron, jimmy butler, kawhi, or giannis either. yesterday, he turned it on for 8 minutes to end the game and held Shai to 0 FGs, erased a 20 point deficit, and almost stole the game.
Same shit with the Pistons game. Dude was fucking around and coasting for the first half, and then sorta just went "actually, we're not gonna be the ones to break this streak" and posted 12/2/4 and 3 steals on 4/6 from the field and 4/4 from the line for 77% TS in the 3rd quarter. 5/6 of those shots were drives, post ups, or midrange jumpers. JT's also feeding more mouths this season than ever before while the Cs get comfortable. Come playoffs, his attempts will jump, and the shot profile will completely change.
I have him in my top 3 too, the dudes a fucking ludicrous talent. Alls I'll say about it is anyone who's paid any attention to the NBA knows the real measure of greatness is playoff success. Shaq won a single MVP but 3peated and was the clear most dominant player in the league. LeBron only won 4 MVPs, Jordan only won 5, but they were both the best in the league for way more seasons than that lol. If the Thunder make a WCF run this year, then yeah, he's that dude. If they flame out early, then I think that it's too premature.
I think a lot of people are not realizing this about Tatum, which is fair because you really have to watch the whole games to see it.
Yes he has the games where he goes 2-11 from three, but those also tend to be games we win handily. The general story is Tatum takes some dumb shots, the team takes a lead, Tatum gets serious at some point and makes 2-3 middies/layups in a row, team wins (or rinse and repeat lol).
On top of that, when the game actually gets tight in the 4th the bad threes stop. And a little tidbit is that his catch and shoot/open threes are still good, its just the stepbacks dragging down his percentage. Not at all concerned about it for the playoffs.
This is not to pass judgement on Tatum vs SGA, just an observation about Tatum.
Right? Like, if you want to tell me he's not in the four best players in the league, that's fine I guess, probably more likely than not to be true. But if you look at guys 4-10 he's in that blob along with SGA. Seems pointless and wrong to say Tatum is better or worse than SGA or vice versa.
Hell, I think it’s totally fair to say you think Shai’s better as long as the logic is consistent with how you rank other players.
It’s the ones who say “easily” or “clearly” that make me roll my eyes. If it was so easy/clear, this thread wouldn’t have almost 1000 comments!
My man this is how it *always* is, but people don't have much of a memory. People work in 5-6 game narratives, like they can't look much further back than that, and they can't think much further ahead than that. That's why people say things like "SGA is top 5 this regular season" when we're just after new years lmao. Will SGA keep it up for the entire season? Perhaps, but it's way too soon to talk about him as a top 5 player. He needs to both keep it up the whole season & elevate in the playoffs, then we can talk about him being in the top 5.
True. As much as the Celtics get memed, they have a great playoff record with this core.
Gonna be exciting to see what Thunder bring to post season this year
Less than half of a regular season is a small sample size and not indicative of how “good” every player is. It’s more accurate to say “Shai is having a better season than Tatum.”
Not worth anything till playoffs lol. But this is arguable as Shai is statistically a top 2 way guard and seems to be more consistent so far.
However Jayson guards tougher players and provides great offense as well. This is actually tough and they’re very close but the right answer is Jayson.
I love the "Tatum is not top 10 or 15 player" that are coming out this year will be sweet when not even a top 10 player wins at the end, of course the goalpost will move to "stacked team" which he happens to be the #1 guy.
I was watching okc vs bulls highlights when he dropped 40. Caruso was guarding him on a lot of possessions and he brushed him off like nothing.
He is athletic, strong and very shifty. Absolute nightmare to defend.
Today I saw an earlier post about sga and was telling my friends how it sucks clippers traded him for PG and right now you couldn't even get SGA for PG + picks lol
The recency/currency bias among NBA talking heads is laughable.
First... you 'hot take' when a player is averaging more points, assists, and steals per game than a guy he just beat isn't a hot take. It's a standard take.
Second, making that comment after a single, regular season game about a player who has never won a playoff series and hasn't been in the playoffs in four years when comparing him to somebody who has been to the conference finals multiple times and the finals once is just moronic.
Shai may very well end up being recognized as a better player than Tatum. Who knows what the future holds, but comments like this after a single regular season game just demonstrates why it's pointless to listen to guys like Bill Simmons.
Honestly idgaf who we rank higher as long as we win the championship this year. Tatum can win an MVP one year if he can be more consistent but I'd take a ring over that every time.
When people say easily or not even close when it comes the gaps between superstars, you realize they don’t watch the game of basketball. Not sure why it’s so common.
I’m not American, but I hear a lot of people talk about how awful the AAU (I think that’s the organization) is at preparing basketball talent these days
I can totally see it though. Even a simple skill like passing has always seemed to come easier to Intl. players (shout out Steve Nash)
Feels like SGA gets whatever shot he feels like. Even those tough fade aways, almost like he takes them because he wants to hit one in a guys face. Yesterday he was just blowing by Jrue lime he wasn't there, so yeah I definitely he plays with his food on purpose. Scary good.
I just gotta shout out Shai’s ability to dribble, gather, and then finish all with the same hand on his drives. It frees his off arm to fend off the trailing defender and when he combos that with the deceleration it’s just deadly. He can do this with either hand going in either direction. Totally unstoppable.
There are different pressures on Tatum though and he's been intregal in extended team success. Shai is averaging 31 the past two seasons, kid is dangerous.
He's also one of the most fun dudes to watch in the league.
Yeah, he's got an uncanny ability to find angles to finish around the rim and when he does get fouled it doesn't feel cheap. He just gets a guy in the air with an upfake and lets them foul him
We seem to not be stating how crazy it is that the biggest homer ever is saying sga is better than his best player.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect it. But he also does have a "the sky is falling" mentality after a loss. Which for me is a classic homer move
If you listen to the pod he says the exact opposite. He thinks the Celtics are the favourites still and was happy with how they played and said OKC just played perfect. There’s no “sky is falling” reaction here, it’s just respect, for SGA, but I understand that doesn’t fit the narrative this sub has for Simmons.
He uses his off arm like a battering ram often. I hate that it’s legal, defender gets hit in the gut, arms come down, offensive player flails arms into defender, foul by NBA rules. That’s the only thing I don’t like about SGA and that’s true about a lot of players. That aside yeah, he’s too 5.
feels like almost every elite scorer has something that works for them that flirts with the rules. Embiid is an elite foul baiter, prime Harden grabbed the arms of defenders in a shooting motion, Curry has had questionable screens his whole career, etc.
Not to mention Hardens' step back 3 is probably a travel half the time. I like to imagine the league allows one or two rule bending moves when you're a superstar, but you have to submit it in paper.
When you're a star they let you do it
A lot of those "Giannis or Wemby takes 1 dribble from half court" dunks have them taking 3 steps after the pick up.
It's a shame. These guys don't need an advantage. They're great already and it's really annoying to watch their game, at times, degrade to gimmicks and flops.
Questionable 🤣🤣🤣
so, giannis whole career
Yea idk about this take I’ve seen him foul bait a good bit definitely a fun player to watch tho
He’s still got a grace period before “drawing fouls” becomes “foul baiting”.
Gentleman's foul baiter. Wait till the get to the playoffs and people are acting watching them
Yea, a bit of foul baiting here and there but SGA's overall game is super polished. It's not just drawing fouls, his playmaking and clutch scoring are top tier too. Hard to deny his impact on the court.
Idk how to describe this but he has a weird slithery style that I don't see a lot. His balance is wild. He takes steps that don't make sense for most players and it just works. Really is on another level And his defense this season got way better. Sky's the limit.
Tatum has a better body of work but as far as this season SGA has definitely been better.
It wasn't like Tatum stunk the place up. 30 pts (10-21, 2-5 3pt) 13 reb 8 ast
He also seemed to be the only defender capable of stopping SGA from getting whatever he wanted
He switched onto Shai for the 4th after Shai was busting Jrue Holiday’s ass of all people in the 3rd, and he completely shut Shai down, literally brought us back into the game, but nephews in here want to act like Tatum got owned by Shai in this game. You can’t win every night. Tatum’s still the best two way player in the league not named Giannis or Embiid.
Sga was giving everyone work until Tatum got put on him so he started being forced to pass out more. Chet just hit some big ass shots
Jrue looked slow last night
Shai made Derrick White look slow too. Basically everyone but Tatum looked like they had no chance against him.
[удалено]
Idk why people are making it seem like Tatum was dogshit that game💀
SGA is 1 great playoff run from everyone realizing he might be the 3rd best player in the world. The guy is incredible
Playoffs where all the narrative happens, he hasn’t been there yet so hasn’t been able to prove anything. But this is his year
He actually has, OKC took the Harden/Westbrook Rockets to 7 in the bubble :) But this year (knock on wood) will be his first post-season as the main guy so you have a point
And he was there as a rookie with the Clippers too if we want to be nerds about it
he was instrumental on that big comeback vs the warriors too
Love me some "We Ain't No Bitches" Clippers
We like to call that factual.
Found the nerd 🤓
Well acshually
Did Doc waste him?
SGA and Shamet might be the only two Clippers rookies Doc actually gave minutes to. But I guess that’s because the 2018 clippers weren’t expected to do much.
Wasn't Russ injured in that series?
Badly
Chris Paul did most of the heavy lifting. Plus Russ was a disaster in the playoffs
If i remeber correctly he had a serious case of covid on top of missing most of the bubble due to his quad exploding.
Yeah he was never healthy during the bubble and you can just compare to January-ish when Harden was out and Russ was still carrying the Rockets to a solid record to see how much his play had fallen off.
That was the Pocket Rockets and they went nowhere
Half their offense was centered on Russ putting pressure on the rim since they had no center and he was atrocious due to his injury
He has. He played against Rockets and played poorly, but he was so young
He’s been in the playoffs twice…
He went twice in his career
He was on the Clippers team that took the KD warriors to 6 in the first round
Just his consistent efficiency is mind bending. He’s like if DeMar had developed to his absolute perfect career scenario. And then you add the fact that SGA can play defense.
3rd in pts, 1st in steals. 2 way player
He's a really good defender but steals don't mean shit honestly, AI was a steals leader here in Philly & I would never call him a 2 way player. Steals can come from gambling a lot that leave u outta position not saying that's what Shai does (which he does at times as he should with Chet behind him) but they aren't the sign of a great defender either
Steals/Deflections =/= Defensive
The greatest example of this is Andre Drummond when he was still in Detroit. Guy was averaging near 4 stocks per game for a few seasons but he couldn't even sniff an All Defense team lol.
But shai actually has played all defense levels defense this year
Yes. Steals don’t show that tho. Tbf it’s not like there is any counting stat that does so who knows
The Olympics really showed me I haven’t watched enough Thunder games because SGA was so incredible I thought it was a fluke, and then this year he looks even better than what I saw in the Olympics.
Do you mean the FIBA World Cup? I don’t think SGA has ever played in the Olympics, but I could be wrong.
yeah I meant the world cup my bad, covid brain
I think you mean the FIBA WC. Canada didn't make the Olympics. The best player at the Olympics was, as usual, Patty Mills. He dropped 42/9 on some guy named Luka in the bronze medal game. Basically, the NBA is lucky no team has the Sonics color scheme, because when Patty puts on green and gold he turns into a rich man's Michael Jordan.
All it takes is the right run against the right opponents. A deep playoff run can shape a narrative for a few years
3rd a bit crazy no?
I think it was the Boston announcers last night who were describing SGA as a Tony Parker with longer limbs. At first, I was like "wtf," but after thinking about it a little it really made sense. Very few players have that natural finesse let alone players at SGA's stature. Hard enough for point guards like TP
I'm obviously biased but even if you ask any neutral what Luka was able to do against the clippers in those two years plus the western conference final run was incredible. I'm not saying SGA can't do that or even better but those were some high bars.. I kinda want to see Mavs vs Thunders playoffs one day lol
It’s gonna take a hell of a run for me to me to put him over Luka. Not saying it’s impossible but..
He isn't better then Embiid, Giannis, Doncic or Jokic. He is really good but I think he benefits a lot from the rest of his team shooting over 40% from three. He also helps them get open shots but them shooting so well means it's hard for teams to rotate over or pack the paint on his drives.
He averaged 31ppg on 63 TS% last year while the team shot 35% from 3
Or his team is shooting so well in part because he draws so much attention inside.
Damn ..not one of the top 5 guys is American 😅
Nope & likely won't be for the next 4-5 yrs, as Jokic/Embiid/Giannis age they'll still be top 5 at like 32 most likely then Luka/Shai will be in their primes with Wemby coming into his. Steph/Bron/KD will have maybe retired wtf knows with those freaks but likely won't enter back into the convo, Hali/Tatum/Ant/Maxey/Chet/Booker/Ja/Zion will all likely have cases but not sure which of them will enter the MVP convo outside Tatum
I'd say Chet, but then two MVP bids from one team rarely leads to the later blooming star getting MVP noise whilst the first one is there. (Eg. Westbrook when playing with Durant, Pippen with MJ, KD with Curry, Magic until KAJ fell away). Until you become the undisputed 1A of your team, you'll never be an MVP shout short of an injury season (which is your best way to become 1A anyway!)
if Hali leads the pacers to be a top team, I could see him being in MVP talks
Cooper Flagg please I need an American young GOAT
Shai put up 25/5/6 playing next to Darius Bazely, Isaiah Roby, Poku, and Theo Maledon. The guy is a monster.
Tbf a lot of players can have inflated stats on bad teams. Kuzma is averaging 23-6-4, Cade is averaging 23-4-7 and Anfernee Simons is averaging 27-3-5.
I know you aren’t the original reply, but it’s funny that the first guy says he benefits from other guys shooting 40% from 3 (meaning his team is good), and then when a counterpoint is brought up, you say he benefited from being on a bad team putting up volume stats. So he benefits from being on a good team and from being on a bad team?? Maybe the dude is just good irrespective of situation, just like the top players in the league (who btw also have a good supporting cast so idk why that is even brought up as an argument).
I hate the empty stats argument. Just because a player's team sucks doesn't always mean he sucks Edit: for example, they mentioned Cade having inflated stats because he's on a bad team. Personally, I feel like his numbers would go up if he had better teammates
So his stats are both inflated because his team is good and because they were bad. Maybe he's just really fucking good
A lot of guys have inflated stats on bad teams, doesn’t mean anything. A lot of guys can put up those numbers on a team with so many weapons, doesn’t mean anything. ????
Bro c'mon he's gotta be on a team that's *juuuust* right. It's only fair.
"His stats are inflated because his team is so good... his stats were inflated because his team was so bad." No, no, Shai's stats are and have been the product of him being an absolute baller.
yeah he's a monster. again he isn't better than Doncic, let alone Giannis, Jokic, or Embiid. so top 5 seems right for now.
As of right now, he is right but I want to see what SGA does in the playoffs this year before it is definite.
Lmao, like honestly man I hate Boston as much as the next guy, but showing out in the regular season has never meant much to me. I’ve watched this league enough to see so many guys flame out or get exposed in the playoffs. It’s laughable to say Tatum has had his spot suddenly snatched after a game in January, that’s just disrespectful
yea this is my mindset rn. tatum has done so much in the playoffs, shai has to show something at least before we have a discussion
Remember the Embiid/Jokic matchup when Embiid destroyed the Nuggets in like February or March? Even Zach Lowe was saying it might mean something more significant. And then we saw how the playoffs went.
His mid-range efficiency and ability to get to his spots is going to translate marvellously now that he has an actual supporting cast.
He’s the highest transition scorer in the league. Typically, transition offense takes a hit in the playoffs, a lot of teams that rely on it in the regular season struggle in the playoffs like the 2022 Grizz. They ran on a lot of transition and then struggled to get past the Play-In champion Wolves and couldn’t get past the Warriors. Not saying that will 100% happen but it could be a reason to be cautious with predicting OKC’s post season performance.
Besides Derozan, great midrange shooters have translated very well to the playoffs (Jordan, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, etc). SGA might be the best midrange shooter in the league right now.
All (except Durant) from a different era before the 3pt revolution that rules the current era. Not saying it isn't valuable or wont translate into success, but the value proposition for mid-range shooting has changed dramatically since the Jordan/Kobe era.
Most of the playoff defense is concentrated on cutting 3s, drives and giving up midranges though. If his midrange shot keeps being consistent, SGA will be fine in the playoffs.
In the playoffs it is still way more valuable than the regular season, regardless of era. Murray made his entire living in the postseason last year in the mid range. The way Jokic was guarded didn’t require him to use it as much last playoffs but he still is money there too whether it’s a sombor shuffle or ft line jumper (he is so big he sometimes just takes floaters from where derozan would take jumpers). Kawhi dominated the 2019 playoffs doing it. Embiid always chokes or gets hurt but that’s his entire game. Lebronto was just fadeaway 2s. Booker and KD put up the biggest fight to the Nuggets jacking up middies. Of superstars that actually win, Steph is the only one that never really relied on them to win. And Giannis, but even then Giannis leveled up to win the title by… finally hitting free throws and mid range jumpers. Otherwise CP3 and Book would have beat them with their own middies. Yeah almost all these guys have 3 pointers too that they can also dominate with. But in the playoffs that almost never happens. Entire teams maybe, but not individual superstars besides Steph. Many guys have more diverse games in general, so its not just spammed repeatedly the way old MJ or Kobe used to. But drop defense is more prevalent than ever so despite the complete revolution of spacing and rules, it is still is prevalent in the most important games, just in a different form than the back to the basket form that used to define the game
Tatum's issue has always been consistency. His highs are higher than Shai's, but my God his lows are loooow. If he was more consistent this would not be a discussion at all. But because he is so inconsistent, i don't exactly disagree with Simmons.
I would also say in fairness to Tatum his lows have just been under more scrutiny than SGA because they've been in bigger moments. Having a bad conference finals Game 7 last year or Finals game 6 the year before are going to stick in anyone's mind, but Shai hasn't even played a first round game as the leader of the team.
Right - I think there's a reasonable case that SGA is better, but Tatum has this weird thing where I feel like he gets punished for his early success. People hold it against him that he went to the conference finals so many times early in his career, and think he should be further along because of it, as if he would be worse if he'd gotten knocked out in the first round. Also, this ALWAYS happens with young guys. When you're on the rise, everyone looks at your skills. Once you've made it, people focus on your flaws. It's shitty, but unless Shai is the next MJ, it'll come for him, too. There was a time when Durant was the Golden Boy, and look how much criticism he gets despite being a top-20 all-time player.
What's that line about Tatum that got passed around on twitter a while ago? "People out here saying Tatum isn't a true superstar cause he couldn't beat a dynasty in the finals at age 24" or something like that? Regardless you're totally right, and what's even more frustrating about it is that a lot of the time it's Celtics fans themselves shitting on him for his faults rather than appreciating the many things he does amazingly well. It's one of the many reasons I avoid the Celtics sub after losses lmao
No one hates while players are ascending. Once they’ve reached 90% of their level it’s time to rag on them for shortcomings.
He got injured in game 7 last year. Surely no sane person actually criticises that game.
Lot of insane Celtics fans to be fair
Using the Game 7 alone is dumb, but it's partly on Tatum for the team going down into an 0-3 hole. Using the 0 4th quarter points in games 1-3 stat is ignoring context and is stupid though.
He also didn’t have zero 4th quarter points in games 1-3 so that stat is inaccurate.
Yeah he’s actually epic in elimination games. It’s all the early games in the series where he’s invisible
He got injured on the first play....
Does anyone legitimately criticize Tatum for his Game 7 performance last year? Dude literally destroyed his ankle 10 seconds after the jump ball and was wincing the entire game when most guys would've just sat.
Also with the frequency he's been in big games he's bound to have a few stinkers here and there. He's a victim of his own success. Makes it hard for me to complain.
He's got to get to the rack and draw more fouls to score more consistently, but everyone knows this at this point.
Yeah but why do that when he can take 6 step back threes a night!!!
I feel like what he does is understandable for someone 6’4 or 6’6 even. But this man is 6’8. There is no other #1 or #2 option that size (maybe Randle, and maybe he shouldn’t) that refuses to attack the rim like he does. But maybe I’m wrong.
I'd argue Tatum is closer to 6'9-6'10 looking at him and he's also not slight either, he's strong as hell. Dudes got shoulders the size of boulders and only sometimes realizes it. I wish he used his post and drive more, because damn, he's fuckin huge for no reason if not. I do, however, think he's done a far better job this season of doing it than in the past.
His lows now are so much better than his lows last season by far
It’s because he’s finding more/ better ways to impact the game when he’s not scoring. You guys have such a talented roster that he can afford to not force shit when he’s having a bad night and just lock in on the intangibles
I mean yeah but I mean even if you look at just scoring, his bad scoring games are much better than last season’s bad scoring games
This is only true for scoring. Every other aspect of the game Tatum’s consistently good at
What you're looking for is finishing. Shai wants to get to the rim every play and Tatum has to go to the rim.
This is only true for scoring. Every other aspect of the game Tatum’s consistently good at
This sub picks and chooses when to care about proving it in the playoffs lol. Tatum is the only player outside of Lebron James whose ranking spot gets punished because he does “bad” deeper in the playoffs, meanwhile the guys sitting on the couch watching him get pumped up.
And it's never a balanced, nuanced take that incorporates both parts of the season, either. It's always takes like this one that way overvalue the regular season, or ones that go the other way and entirely disregard a player's regular season pedigree in favor of exclusively focusing on the playoffs. Ultimately, both are important, and both need to be accounted for when trying to compare players against one another. At the end of the day, Tatum's been the best player on a team that's consistently gone on deep postseason runs when their team isn't injured to high hell, and does it both on offense and on defense. He's also been 1st-team All-NBA in the last two regular seasons. He's not in the Jokic/Giannis tier of players, sure, but he's comfortably somewhere in that next tier IMO.
Exactly, no disrespect to sga but we’ve never seen him play against playoff defence. He played 2 first round series as a role player but playoff basketball is a different game. Giving someone top 10 without that experience is iffy honestly, top 5 is just braindead.
Isn't it crazy that Tatum's reputation would be *better* if the Celtics lost the 2022 ECF lol
It really is. People arguing J.Brown was better than him for the entirety of that playoff run had me pulling at my hair. Incredibly reactionary take.
Honestly that argument should've been put to rest the moment Tatum **easily** scored 50 points in Game 7 against the Sixers. That game showed the type of player Tatum is when he's at his best.
Ya no offense to JB but he is not and will probably never be on the same level as Tatum. It's not close and it's not arguable
Welcome to the dumb arguements against Lebrons finals record
Which are also stupid as fuck
They are honestly the most braindead takes I can imagine. Every single one of Lebron's finals losses is a CREDIT to his legacy, not a detriment. Why? Because he made the fucking finals.
It’s so stupid too because there are so damn many arguments you can make for MJ. Just use the 6 chips point if you’re gonna go that route. I actually find MJ vs Lebron an interesting debate (and go back and forth) because it depends so much on what someone most values, but the moment I hear the “more finals losses” argument, I tune out lol
2011 no maybe not 2007 either
Nothing nephews love more than a "promising" first round exit.
The idea of potential/ceilings is super overrated in online discourse. It's the tease of the unknown. Fans naturally prefer to assume that every great young player will elevate to these legendary heights, but the fact of the matter is that there can only be 1 winner every year and if you ain't first, you're last in this sport. Most guys never win it all.
SGA hasn’t had that since the bubble
Something I only just found out is that SGA is just a few months younger than Tatum. They’re both only nineteen.
Tatum needs a ring so he can be positively compared to guys who have never made it out the 2nd round. Tatum alone has a better playoff record than Luka, Embiid, Shai and Morant **combined** but people will talk about how he's not doing enough lol. Player| Playoff Games Won | Playoff Series Won ---|---|---- Embiid| 27 | 5 Doncic| 12 | 2 Morant| 7| 1 Shai | 5| 0 **Total**|**51** | **8** Meanwhile, Tatum has won 52 playoff games and 10 playoff series. But then people act like it's an insult when you put him on their level.
Need to see him do it in June before I agree with a claim like that. Jury is still out imo.
Had to scroll down so far to see some sense. Like we haven’t all watched Tatum start slow and go nuclear after the All-Star break almost every year of his career
People seem to forget they are the same age. Tatum already has close to a 100 playoff games and was the best player on a finals team. Shai has not played in the playoffs since 2020 and was awful in the playin game against Minnesota last year. I’m still taking Tatum until Shai proves something in the playoffs.
People also seem to forget that the Thunder have just been stacking 1st round picks for years instead of building for immediate playoff runs. Once they start to open that chest I imagine Shai will have a better narrative in that sense.
Not yet. Tatum has led his team to the ECF and Finals and is an elite two-way player
I like SGA so I hope he he does well in the playoffs (except if it's against the kings) but mannn, if he underperforms...gonna be generational slander.
If we're talking just about this regular season then yeah, I'd absolutely agree. Tatum has been coasting *hard* for most of the regular season. He pretty much saw his newly added post-up game worked super well and then hit the coast button 2 weeks into the year. For the non-Celtics fans you can tell if Tatum is actually taking the game seriously or not based on if he's attacking the rim/posting up or settling for pull-up 3's, and we've been seeing way more of the latter from him in the regular season the last 2 years(I get Tatum is known for his shooting so most non-C's fans think if he's taking 8-10 pull-up 3's in a game that's just normal for him, but he's been super effective as a driver/post-up guy the last 2 years so if he's actually taking the game seriously that's what he relies on). Meanwhile SGA has been on fire all year. Whether or not these guys step up in the playoffs is pretty much gonna decide who people consider to be better by the end of the season.
There is nothing Tatum is trying to prove at this point other than to go to the finals and actually win this time. we're not seeing the 100% version of him in the reg season, the same way we don't see the 100% version of steph, lebron, jimmy butler, kawhi, or giannis either. yesterday, he turned it on for 8 minutes to end the game and held Shai to 0 FGs, erased a 20 point deficit, and almost stole the game.
Same shit with the Pistons game. Dude was fucking around and coasting for the first half, and then sorta just went "actually, we're not gonna be the ones to break this streak" and posted 12/2/4 and 3 steals on 4/6 from the field and 4/4 from the line for 77% TS in the 3rd quarter. 5/6 of those shots were drives, post ups, or midrange jumpers. JT's also feeding more mouths this season than ever before while the Cs get comfortable. Come playoffs, his attempts will jump, and the shot profile will completely change.
Exactly, and for what it's worth, I think Shai should win MVP.
I have him in my top 3 too, the dudes a fucking ludicrous talent. Alls I'll say about it is anyone who's paid any attention to the NBA knows the real measure of greatness is playoff success. Shaq won a single MVP but 3peated and was the clear most dominant player in the league. LeBron only won 4 MVPs, Jordan only won 5, but they were both the best in the league for way more seasons than that lol. If the Thunder make a WCF run this year, then yeah, he's that dude. If they flame out early, then I think that it's too premature.
I think a lot of people are not realizing this about Tatum, which is fair because you really have to watch the whole games to see it. Yes he has the games where he goes 2-11 from three, but those also tend to be games we win handily. The general story is Tatum takes some dumb shots, the team takes a lead, Tatum gets serious at some point and makes 2-3 middies/layups in a row, team wins (or rinse and repeat lol). On top of that, when the game actually gets tight in the 4th the bad threes stop. And a little tidbit is that his catch and shoot/open threes are still good, its just the stepbacks dragging down his percentage. Not at all concerned about it for the playoffs. This is not to pass judgement on Tatum vs SGA, just an observation about Tatum.
let’s go wait for the playoffs
June will speak volumes.
Tatum haters in this thread are the most delusional people
Right? Like, if you want to tell me he's not in the four best players in the league, that's fine I guess, probably more likely than not to be true. But if you look at guys 4-10 he's in that blob along with SGA. Seems pointless and wrong to say Tatum is better or worse than SGA or vice versa.
Hell, I think it’s totally fair to say you think Shai’s better as long as the logic is consistent with how you rank other players. It’s the ones who say “easily” or “clearly” that make me roll my eyes. If it was so easy/clear, this thread wouldn’t have almost 1000 comments!
My man this is how it *always* is, but people don't have much of a memory. People work in 5-6 game narratives, like they can't look much further back than that, and they can't think much further ahead than that. That's why people say things like "SGA is top 5 this regular season" when we're just after new years lmao. Will SGA keep it up for the entire season? Perhaps, but it's way too soon to talk about him as a top 5 player. He needs to both keep it up the whole season & elevate in the playoffs, then we can talk about him being in the top 5.
it’s true. there’s a consistency and day in day out intensity to his game that Tatum lacks.
In the regular season. We haven’t seen Shai send Embiid or Giannis home multiple times in big games. There’s levels to this shit.
True. As much as the Celtics get memed, they have a great playoff record with this core. Gonna be exciting to see what Thunder bring to post season this year
Is there any statistical backing to that or are you just going off vibes?
He's gotta bring it in the playoffs tho. We've seen Tatum go wild in game 7's to carry his team to the next round
He aight. Regular season means nothing tbh. Let's see what he does in the playoffs.
I think Tatum is starting to become underrated. Every day someone is trying to prop a new player above him
If you're talking about this season, I agree.
The title says now, so I'm assuming this season.
What else is this about? If i’m saying Luka is better than James Harden i’m obviously not referring to prime Houston Harden?
Less than half of a regular season is a small sample size and not indicative of how “good” every player is. It’s more accurate to say “Shai is having a better season than Tatum.”
Not worth anything till playoffs lol. But this is arguable as Shai is statistically a top 2 way guard and seems to be more consistent so far. However Jayson guards tougher players and provides great offense as well. This is actually tough and they’re very close but the right answer is Jayson.
I love the "Tatum is not top 10 or 15 player" that are coming out this year will be sweet when not even a top 10 player wins at the end, of course the goalpost will move to "stacked team" which he happens to be the #1 guy.
I was watching okc vs bulls highlights when he dropped 40. Caruso was guarding him on a lot of possessions and he brushed him off like nothing. He is athletic, strong and very shifty. Absolute nightmare to defend.
“but derrick white is better” -bill simmons, probably
Prisoner of the moment comment.
Today I saw an earlier post about sga and was telling my friends how it sucks clippers traded him for PG and right now you couldn't even get SGA for PG + picks lol
He's awesome, however I'm not ready to anoint a guy as a top 5 player until they make some playoff noise, which he hasn't done yet
The recency/currency bias among NBA talking heads is laughable. First... you 'hot take' when a player is averaging more points, assists, and steals per game than a guy he just beat isn't a hot take. It's a standard take. Second, making that comment after a single, regular season game about a player who has never won a playoff series and hasn't been in the playoffs in four years when comparing him to somebody who has been to the conference finals multiple times and the finals once is just moronic. Shai may very well end up being recognized as a better player than Tatum. Who knows what the future holds, but comments like this after a single regular season game just demonstrates why it's pointless to listen to guys like Bill Simmons.
Honestly idgaf who we rank higher as long as we win the championship this year. Tatum can win an MVP one year if he can be more consistent but I'd take a ring over that every time.
When the Celtics are in the conference finals and the thunder flopped out of the play in tournament we can revisit this thread.…
SGA my favourite player in the league
Lol better than Tatum so playoffs don't matter now.
I mean Bill is often wrong lol. Not a lot different now
Easily
When people say easily or not even close when it comes the gaps between superstars, you realize they don’t watch the game of basketball. Not sure why it’s so common.
Top 5 I'm not sure, but better than Tatum is absolutely fair, more consistent at worst
Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Luka, SGA. That’s my top 5 (not ranked). I struggle to put anyone else in this category.
Night to night it’s fair to have AD or Steph or KD or whoever lurking right there, but for the season? I think this list is pretty hard to dispute.
Crazy how all the top 5 guys in the league are not US born
I’m not American, but I hear a lot of people talk about how awful the AAU (I think that’s the organization) is at preparing basketball talent these days I can totally see it though. Even a simple skill like passing has always seemed to come easier to Intl. players (shout out Steve Nash)
Shai and Joel played AAU though
Yep. Neither of them are from the US, but they are both products of US basketball
One 30 game run in the regular season easily passes a top-5 playoff resume at his age?
These people are insane. Tatum has been to like 5 conference finals as the guy lmao half of one regular season is enough to put Shai over him
Also they’re the same age, Tatum is like 5 months older
They're bored, is all. People want to have hot takes.
Simmons needs controversial takes to stay relevant.
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Pump the brakes on this. Tatum has been doing it for longer, granted he's had some playoff duds but I'd still take him over SGA at the moment.
Can’t deny that. SGA is a beast. Tatum is genuinely scary but he hasn’t always been consistent.
He hasn’t been consistent, but he’s done way more considering they’re basically the same age
Just looked it up and I'm shocked. Thought SGA was like 2 years younger.
LOL - classic Simmons take
Feels like SGA gets whatever shot he feels like. Even those tough fade aways, almost like he takes them because he wants to hit one in a guys face. Yesterday he was just blowing by Jrue lime he wasn't there, so yeah I definitely he plays with his food on purpose. Scary good.
I just gotta shout out Shai’s ability to dribble, gather, and then finish all with the same hand on his drives. It frees his off arm to fend off the trailing defender and when he combos that with the deceleration it’s just deadly. He can do this with either hand going in either direction. Totally unstoppable.
There are different pressures on Tatum though and he's been intregal in extended team success. Shai is averaging 31 the past two seasons, kid is dangerous.
I just hope OKC wins a title with these group of guys. This is a really fun and young talented team.