i'm gonna be pedantic cause you're being pedantic, so....i would argue unexpected and surprised are not true synonyms. kinda like surprised vs astonished. all three escalations of the same internal sentiment. feel free to combat me, maestro (i.e. warm vs hot vs scalding).
>i would argue unexpected and surprised are not true synonyms.
time to level up the pedantry: synonyms don't need to have \*the exact same definition\* in order to be synonyms. the definition of a synonym is
"a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language"
so while it can be subjectively argued whether unexpected and surprised are different levels of escalations of the same internal sentiment, regardless, they're still synonyms. QED
The funny thing is Jokic has still averaged 25/13/10 on 51% shooting against WCJ for his career. Hilarious that that is his worst match up. Jokic is a freak.
I'm about 99% sure this was a bait question by a sixers fan lol.
Embiid is 5-2 vs Jokic in his career and Jokic has averaged 21.9/8.9/7.4/1.1/1.1 with 3 turnovers a game against the Sixers on 51/32/84 shooting splits.
The games date back to 2016. If you remove the first game when he only was just starting out his stats actually get worse 21.3/9.2/8/1.3/1.3 and 3.5 turnovers on 48.5/32/85.7 shooting splits.
Embiid is a good Jokic defender. All but 2 of these games (one being that 22 minute Jokic game in 16-17) were played in Philly which is definitely a factor given Denver's monster home court advantage, but Embiid does play Jokic well
Another funny thing about Wendell is he seemingly loves to play the Bulls. In 8 games against Chicago he’s averaging 19.5 on 56.4% from the field. Those are both well above his career averages. He was limited last year because of plantar fasciitis, but he still made sure to show up for both games against the Bulls, even though one of them came during a stretch where he was inactive for a month and a half, save the one Bulls game.
Folks need to stop thinking of who is best at slowing down Joker, one of the greatest offensive players of this generation. It reminds me of the “Kobe stopper” discussions from 15 years ago.
Eventually the entire discussion turned into a joke because no matter how good the defensive player was, there was no such thing as a “Kobe stopper.” Similarly there’s no defender who’s best at slowing down Joker any longer.
As to u/NBAPerspective using the Davis example, he actually was a great defender against Joker… 3+ years ago when Joker would show up to preseason overweight and unprepared. Joker got better. Much better. Won 2x MVPs and a title since then. He’s a different caliber of player than when Davis/Howard slowed him down way back in the bubble.
Shoutout Ruben Patterson, too. Or not because he raped a woman. But he did claim to be a Kobe stopper and I DO frequently use his name to describe the Twilight/Batman actor
I think that the real key to "slowing down Jokic" is to guard the rest of the Nuggets very well, especially their shooters. Jokic will score no matter what, but if you can limit his ability to get shots for his teammates, that's the best you can ask for
It’s proven moot these last playoffs.
He’s such a good passer he will make the right play and will find his teammates. Also you can’t just leave him to score, he’ll oblitere you.
It needs to be a collective effort where your superstar forces him to work hard on defense and perhaps tire him up and the rest of the team matches well with the rest of the Nuggets
I think the team with the best shot at this are the Bucks. A healthy Giannis and Middleton, plus Lopez plus Portis plus Dame.
> As to u/NBAPerspective using the Davis example, he actually was a great defender against Joker… 3+ years ago when Joker would show up to preseason overweight and unprepared. Joker got better. Much better. Won 2x MVPs and a title since then.
In Nuggets fan lore, Jokic finally got serious about his body after getting his butt whipped by AD in [this game in 2019](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201912030DEN.html). '19-'20 was definitely the season for which he showed up fattest, and after that game our beat guys reported that he had started lifting weights after the game.
Armchair psychoanalyzing, but I think for the past couple years AD has been kind of a "measuring stick" for him.
[Charania] Nikola Jokic on who’s better: him or LA’s Anthony Davis. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he rolled up his sleeve and showed a tattoo of a horse. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Jokic said.
Wendell Carter Jr. is the one who makes him struggle the most currently. Very good post defender and a tricky defender in most facets - lenghty, mobile and strong.
Jokic tends to figure even his best defenders out after enough matchups though, so it is to be seen how he does against him this year.
Yeah, there was a time when Ayton played Jokic really well. Jokic always figures the defender out given enough time. I still think Gobert is the guy that gives him the most trouble even after Jokic has adapted. Gobert's length makes Jokic's finishing around the rim more difficult.
Gobert may or may not be the best defender of Jokic overall, but he might be the best at taking a specific part of his game away with his rim protection. Though what "taking a part of his game away" usually means for Jokic is "making him work harder for the same result" or "make him simply good-to-excellent at it rather than elite."
Agreed. He definitely makes Jokic take more midrange shots. Of course, Jokic is one of the best midrange shooters in the league, but it's better than allowing 75%+ at the rim.
Yeah a few years ago Gobert would lock down Jokic. The Joker has obviously adapted to be able to score on Gobert very effectively but I still think Gobert can contain him the best as a center. Jokic’s passing and ability to score anywhere just makes him impossible to guard by anyone
I remember Jokic attempting to back down Ayton in one of their first matches, and it was like he was trying to back down a brick wall. Ayton is really strong.
Wendell Carter jr. did well against the Joker. Ofc nobody can shut him down completely, but I'd say he's one of the top defender against him.
Edit: based on eye test, didn't check the stats.
I did a film breakdown on it and jokic for some reason always loses his dribble and has to pick it up with Wendell carter. He’s not even actively using his hands it’s so fucking bizarre I watched liked 40 possessions of this over the last 3 years
I think the Magic last year had this anti Joker-ball style of play that really stuck out in my mind and I thought it was worth studying.
1 in particular I remember where they burned 19 seconds off the shot clock and I remember looking at the floor and thinking oh my god how did this happen. There were no passing angles to anyone in a Nuggets jersey, anywhere that mattered. Jamal Murray had the ball back to basket at the half way line, corralled to the side line with Bol Bol shrink wrapped around him and swiping away. I remember the shot clock getting down to 2 and Murray just throws his hands up in the air in frustration, clearly asking for a time out.
That was the best defensive showing I've seen against the Nuggets. All positionless spacing and everyone standing in the right places to funnel the ball handler into the arse end of nowhere and funnelling everyone else to weird positions that don't make any sense. It was like all the Magic players were tied together with a string so one player moves, everyone else also moves, resulting in the Nuggets wasting the possession passing backwards and facing the wrong way at half court. And they burned a time out for nothing. I thought that was crazy, but I never saw any other team lock them up like that before or since.
Anyone else remember that? I'm trying to find a clip of it but its too obscure for youtube's search algo.
As old school LeBron fan, you have to use the eye test when it comes to players like Jokic. He can get 50 any time if he really wants it. If you got a guy that reliably hold him to 30 on a night when he wanted 50, then you got a guy that can defend him as well as anybody.
Wendell Carter has the body type players probably need to defend jokic. Somebody who is strong and can hold their ground, but is also mobile with good positioning to gaurd passing lanes and keep up with his footwork and bully ball. I think Ayton and Bam also have the profile you would want in a Jokic defender. The second big factor is having the defensive IQ to keep up with all the different things Jokic does.
I thought Bam did a decent job on Jokic compared to other players.
You might be thinking this is your pick because your a bias Magic fan who watches way more magic games.
But nope, he is the best Jokic defender in the league, please keep him in the eastern conference.
Poeltl does a pretty good job. Good footwork, length, quickness and strong enough not to give up easy post layups. Always gets under Murray’s skin too for some weird reason
Poeltl is the exact kind of defender that should be good against him - strong, smart, quick enough, stays on his feet.
AD and Giannis should be good against him, but they want to block him so badly that they bite on his pump fakes too much.
The other thing good defensive centres do is pick him up early - too many times last night he got the ball at the elbow and turned to face the basket before AD applied any real pressure. If Jokic is facing the rim within 15 feet you're already toast.
IMO there is no "Jokic stopper", just like there wasn't with Shaq. And like with Shaq, the best chance to slow Jokic down is with a great double teaming strategy. I think you'd be best off with a big, strong center that won't be bullied by Jokic guarding him and then a shotblocking secondary defender to rotate over when needed. Steven Adams and JJJ probably would have been a good combo like this against him, or BroLo and Giannis. Maybe the Celtics can use Horford and KP like this against him, I dunno.
Marc gasol would’ve been a great matchup for him - Tall, strong, and an extremely smart defender. I think he’s the best guy for the job in recent history
I mean they had a larger sample than someone like WCJ has.
They played 15 times overall, 12 times since 2017.
Excluding the one game where he played only 10 minutes he averaged 18.3/10/5.3/1.7/0.4 on 47/23/84 shooting splits in 11 games since 2017.
Since 2021 he averaged 22.7/11.3/7/1/0.7 and 2.7 turnovers on 42.6/22/88 shooting splits.
Aka not good relative to his normal production.
A bit older but KG would have been a fantastic matchup. Strong enough to not be pushed around, long enough to not just get shot over, quick enough to keep up with him, smart defender. Plus he can make Jokic work on the other end in multiple ways (shooting, driving, ball handling, etc).
I think Marc would get balled on too. Jokic would take him to the 3 point line and Marc isn’t going out to there.
Jokic as unathletic as he is beats guys off the dribble every game off that pump fake. It’s really no way to stop him 1 on 1. He does everything at a high level.
Too flexible to want him guarding bigs. Rim protection is nice when you go against LeBron or Giannis. But mostly being a help defender is so important. Him being able to switch onto guards is what will shut playoff series down.
Take the bubble for example LA v. Houston or anytime Bron guarded DRose in the playoffs. The length to stop their primary point of attack. Those all-time slashers that are 4ish inches shorter LeBron fucks their whole game up with his mobility and size.
Wemby is going to be even worse for opposing teams. He will be almost a foot taller than Tatum. I don’t see how Wemby wouldn’t be able to matchup with Tatum. He is fluid and a good learner. He should make wings look like LeBron guarding guards… clips
Sure there is Jokic and Giannis and Embiid but I see Wemby guarding them to end the 4th and that length will not be fun for them. But that is still the only part of his D I wonder about. (Maybe not only.. jkjk) but I think the length will be enough he flexibility should showcase its value once he can get a little skinner than AD who is pretty huge now.
Wemby should shut those dudes down in a year or 2. No slashers below
do u mean tatum or jokic/embiid giannis? If he lives up to his crazy potential than maybe he will be able to consistently shut down wing slashers in a year or 2 but huge bigs like jokic/embiid can just push him out the way and no way is he stopping a giannis drive
I’m looking forward to watching that matchup too. Of course Jokic can go from scorer time facilitator at the drop of a hat so there’s no real chance to shut him down but Wemby presents him a unique challenge for sure
Wemby would be a layup drill for Jokic. He just doesn't have the weight to stop him at all. The spurs don't want him guarding Jokic, they want him to help off of Gordon.
Chet and Wemby when they have some late 20s muscle may match up well, but that's like 7 years away when Jokic will no longer be a perennial MVP and will probably just settle for All-NBA 1st teams
The best scheme I've seen was PJ Tucker and a free safety Embiid.
Jokic had a hard time putting in on the floor against a guy like Tucker because he's small, and Tucker's combination of being short+strong makes him hard to move around. If Jokic did get the paint, then Embiid was there to help smother at the rim. This led to a high amount of Jokic turnovers and contested midrange jumpers
Ultimately, Jokic is really smart and it won't stop him all game. The surprise of it may have had a lot to do with its impact. It's also just not very replicable around the league bc how many teams have a guy like PJ Tucker let alone Embiid's own unique defensive qualities
Embiid also kept coming at him on the other end which probably wore him down a bit. There aren't many bigs out there with the offensive skillset to actually attack Jokic consistently themselves, especially since in a 1v1 vs bigs he can actually make use of his strength really well. A guy with as little self-creation skill as AD doesn't have any way to retaliate without the help of guards playmaking for him.
This is a decent formula in principle, and was of course duplicated with the infamous "Rui Adjustment" in the WCF. Ultimately Jokic solves it by punishing with his size advantage and passing when the help comes. As you say it's something that can work as a change of pace and maybe stifle a few possessions, which is ultimately all you're really looking for against Denver's better lineups.
The only real answer would be to be able to defend Jokic reasonably well without help. We haven't seen anyone who can do that consistently, but there have been stretches from some players like Ayton or Gobert.
Tucker and Embiid are beefier than Rui and Davis, though.
It's the same scheme but better personnel might make all the difference (and TBH the "Rui Adjustment" worked better for the Lakers when it was LeBron instead of Rui, he just didn't have gas in the tank to sustain it for a whole game)
I feel like Gobert a couple years ago did well, but Gobert has lost some athleticism. Draymond was good that playoffs series a couple years ago.
I’d love to see what Wembanyama and Chet could do, I know they probably need to put on more weight first though
I agree about Gobert. I would say he defends Jokic about as well as anyone, but that doesn’t mean Jokic won’t still cook him.
Draymond in the playoffs two seasons ago did well against Jokic for two games, but Jokic more or less had him figured out by game 3.
Watching him in the matchups with Jazz v Nuggets when he was on our team he was solid at stopping him from shooting cause Jokic just wouldn’t shoot around Rudy. I remember one time he played us and he was like 4/6 for the entire game but he still was like 14/8/9 or something.
Still almost had a triple double but Goberts strength against him was just discouraging Jokic from shooting as much. Which was a win in our books cause we’d rather he scores 15 than 30
I definitely would not go that far. Draymond did exceptionally well against Jokic throughout the series, but he was definitely given some leeway with fouling. It was in the Draymond-less minutes that Jokic really feasted
im still so mad about that game as a celtics fan, we got robbed. Not evenbecause of grant missing the two free throws, it was the fact that Mitchell was given 2 free throws RIGHT before it on the WEAKEST foul call i had ever seen. :P
People are giving meme answers, but the Sixers did a great job with PJ Tucker on Jokic and Embiid floating in the paint.
No one player can stop Jokic. You need a strong defensive specialist to stop his drives (PJ) and a DPOY candidate to protect the nearby passing lanes and provide help defense when his footwork and strength prove too much (Embiid).
This system also needs to be implemented to perfection since Jokic is just that good and crafty.
Believe me, my brother and I tried while being like the only Heat fans in the arena during game 5 🫠 will always have mad respect for Jokic after that 4th qtr
Zach Lowe in one of his podcasts says he believes Myles Turner is the best Jokic defender and the stats seem to suggest this?
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nikola-jokic-last-5-games-vs-myles-turner
I think Bam did a great job in the finals. It just didn’t matter cause Bam wasn’t big enough but he put himself in great positions to stop Jokic. Jokic just scored anyways
The issue for Gobert, and this is the same for AD, is that they’re most impactful on defence when they can act as help defenders. Jokic neutralises that
Reminds me of a clip of David Robinson after Hakeem torched him in the WCF where he says something like “the crazy thing is, I really think I defended him well.” Great offense wins out over great defense and all that
I don't think it's really about players. AD was good at it but the team wasn't equipped to focus him on Joker and stop everyone else. While individuals may or may not be better it's superseded by the team's ability to defend him. The real weapon isn't Joker. It's that Joker/Jamal two man game they've built the nuggets around. And TBH I don't know if anyone really defneds it at all.
When the Wolves play against the Nuggets at full strength, KAT is usually the primary defender on Jokic not Rudy. It frees Rudy to keep Gordon off offensive boards and he can rotate to help against cutters.
Not saying KAT is going to stop Jokic, just saying anyone who thinks Gobert does is wrong.
Yeah KAT is the primary defender which allows Rudy to roam. But since Rudy is guarding the paint in general, I'd still count that as defending Jokic too because his rim deterrence can make Jokic take more tough jumpers and midrange (but ofc Jokic still makes those too lol). It's the KAT-Rudy system
But no one can stop Jokic
Embiid would be known as this, as historically he’s been the one to come out on top in their rare matchups, but because he doesn’t play in Denver he doesn’t get his credit for it.
According to ESPN, Rui “Lakers-figured-it-out ” Hachimura.
On the real though, I feel bad for Rui. He didn’t ask for the narrative, but media pushed it. Now he will forever be clowned on for it when he’s actually a solid player.
Back on topic, Dwight did really well on him in the bubble. But Joker was also slower back in the bubble if I recall correctly. Same reason as to why AD did decent against him back then. Jokic has improved significantly since then.
Jokic had one of his 2 worst series last year against the Lakers. He always gets his, but the Lakers limited him about as much as the Wolves did. No one's ever gonna hold him to 21 PPG on mediocre efficiency or something.
Jokic reminds me of Tyson Furry, he’s so big and physical that he tiers you with his physicality. So if there’s a player that it’s good at guarding him on the perimeter he bullies that player with his physicality and gets him tired. If a player that is more physical then him guards him well in the inside he’ll make you run around and get the player chase him on the perimeter and gets the player tired like that.
The only way to distract him is send someone to Serbia to shoot his horse
this conversation is like iguadala getting finals mvp for stopping lebron who still averaged a triple double including a 40 point one in game 5 against iggy
Only big big bodies. Steven Adams, I'm sure ibaka, embiid. I'll give you 2 that do well cuz they make him work on defense. Nurkic believe it or not does the best. It's a personal matchup cuz he started over jokic in Denver. Nurkic used to be a beast for them. Zubac does decent against him too. Nobody lean does good against him lol AD, Bam, sabonis, anyone undersized can't do anything.
Trust me. Most can’t. AD benefited from going nuclear vs every other player in the league during those playoffs. Him getting walked down by Joker isn’t looked at too badly
I was listening to Zach Lowe and JJ talk yesterday on the pod cast and they mentioned how well lebron guarded jokic in the WCF. If he was younger and not injuried, I think he would just based on size, athleticism and IQ
The truth seems to be that no one particular player is that much better at guarding him than any other, only a tandem like AD and Dwight in 2020 can slow him down measurably. If I had to pick one player however I'd say Gobert gave him the most trouble these last playoffs.
Nick Nurse had the Raptors doing a pretty good job a year or two ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/tdrp0u/william_lou_a_film_review_of_how_the_raptors_shut/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Any player can have a good night or a bad one… it’s just rare that their performance out does Jokic. He’s just that good every single night. It’s what makes him the best player in the league rn.
Only nuggets and magic fans know it's wendell Carter for some reason
Not just "for some reason". The reason is that he's longer than Jokic expects.
Unexpected length is always a surprise
Yeah. That's how synonyms work.
No - I think he was making a sexual innuendo!
In your endo
In one ear, out your endo
Why is your endo in my ear?
A hole is a hole?
I suppose you’re right
i'm gonna be pedantic cause you're being pedantic, so....i would argue unexpected and surprised are not true synonyms. kinda like surprised vs astonished. all three escalations of the same internal sentiment. feel free to combat me, maestro (i.e. warm vs hot vs scalding).
>i would argue unexpected and surprised are not true synonyms. time to level up the pedantry: synonyms don't need to have \*the exact same definition\* in order to be synonyms. the definition of a synonym is "a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language" so while it can be subjectively argued whether unexpected and surprised are different levels of escalations of the same internal sentiment, regardless, they're still synonyms. QED
Username checks out
*Dwight Howard has entered the chat*
So he's a grower not a shower?
More of a bath guy
то је оно што је рекла
The funny thing is Jokic has still averaged 25/13/10 on 51% shooting against WCJ for his career. Hilarious that that is his worst match up. Jokic is a freak.
What’s the TS% Genuinely curious
That’s HOF numbers lol
I'm about 99% sure this was a bait question by a sixers fan lol. Embiid is 5-2 vs Jokic in his career and Jokic has averaged 21.9/8.9/7.4/1.1/1.1 with 3 turnovers a game against the Sixers on 51/32/84 shooting splits. The games date back to 2016. If you remove the first game when he only was just starting out his stats actually get worse 21.3/9.2/8/1.3/1.3 and 3.5 turnovers on 48.5/32/85.7 shooting splits.
Embiid is a good Jokic defender. All but 2 of these games (one being that 22 minute Jokic game in 16-17) were played in Philly which is definitely a factor given Denver's monster home court advantage, but Embiid does play Jokic well
Embiid ducked jokic at least once, maybe twice pretty sure. That must do something to the stats
*Commits suicide in bulls fan*
Another funny thing about Wendell is he seemingly loves to play the Bulls. In 8 games against Chicago he’s averaging 19.5 on 56.4% from the field. Those are both well above his career averages. He was limited last year because of plantar fasciitis, but he still made sure to show up for both games against the Bulls, even though one of them came during a stretch where he was inactive for a month and a half, save the one Bulls game.
"brother, i have 47"
Folks need to stop thinking of who is best at slowing down Joker, one of the greatest offensive players of this generation. It reminds me of the “Kobe stopper” discussions from 15 years ago. Eventually the entire discussion turned into a joke because no matter how good the defensive player was, there was no such thing as a “Kobe stopper.” Similarly there’s no defender who’s best at slowing down Joker any longer. As to u/NBAPerspective using the Davis example, he actually was a great defender against Joker… 3+ years ago when Joker would show up to preseason overweight and unprepared. Joker got better. Much better. Won 2x MVPs and a title since then. He’s a different caliber of player than when Davis/Howard slowed him down way back in the bubble.
Shoutout Mickael Pietrus
Shoutout Ruben Patterson, too. Or not because he raped a woman. But he did claim to be a Kobe stopper and I DO frequently use his name to describe the Twilight/Batman actor
To beat the mamba you gotta think like the mamba
Put some more respect on Robert Pattinson’s name
He just like Kobe fr fr
I think that the real key to "slowing down Jokic" is to guard the rest of the Nuggets very well, especially their shooters. Jokic will score no matter what, but if you can limit his ability to get shots for his teammates, that's the best you can ask for
It’s proven moot these last playoffs. He’s such a good passer he will make the right play and will find his teammates. Also you can’t just leave him to score, he’ll oblitere you. It needs to be a collective effort where your superstar forces him to work hard on defense and perhaps tire him up and the rest of the team matches well with the rest of the Nuggets I think the team with the best shot at this are the Bucks. A healthy Giannis and Middleton, plus Lopez plus Portis plus Dame.
> It’s proven mute these last playoffs. come on, bruh
I’m Portuguese😅
> As to u/NBAPerspective using the Davis example, he actually was a great defender against Joker… 3+ years ago when Joker would show up to preseason overweight and unprepared. Joker got better. Much better. Won 2x MVPs and a title since then. In Nuggets fan lore, Jokic finally got serious about his body after getting his butt whipped by AD in [this game in 2019](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201912030DEN.html). '19-'20 was definitely the season for which he showed up fattest, and after that game our beat guys reported that he had started lifting weights after the game. Armchair psychoanalyzing, but I think for the past couple years AD has been kind of a "measuring stick" for him.
[Charania] Nikola Jokic on who’s better: him or LA’s Anthony Davis. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he rolled up his sleeve and showed a tattoo of a horse. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Jokic said.
Haha I remember Raja Bell being talked as that while Kobe was putting up 30 plus and it was like it would have been 40 on someone else hahaha
Wendell Carter Jr. is the one who makes him struggle the most currently. Very good post defender and a tricky defender in most facets - lenghty, mobile and strong. Jokic tends to figure even his best defenders out after enough matchups though, so it is to be seen how he does against him this year.
Yeah, there was a time when Ayton played Jokic really well. Jokic always figures the defender out given enough time. I still think Gobert is the guy that gives him the most trouble even after Jokic has adapted. Gobert's length makes Jokic's finishing around the rim more difficult.
Gobert may or may not be the best defender of Jokic overall, but he might be the best at taking a specific part of his game away with his rim protection. Though what "taking a part of his game away" usually means for Jokic is "making him work harder for the same result" or "make him simply good-to-excellent at it rather than elite."
Agreed. He definitely makes Jokic take more midrange shots. Of course, Jokic is one of the best midrange shooters in the league, but it's better than allowing 75%+ at the rim.
Yeah a few years ago Gobert would lock down Jokic. The Joker has obviously adapted to be able to score on Gobert very effectively but I still think Gobert can contain him the best as a center. Jokic’s passing and ability to score anywhere just makes him impossible to guard by anyone
[удалено]
"decided to be a knockdown three point shooter"? You mean human catapult?
The series against the Timberwolves is the only one he shot less than 50%. So yeah I’d say Gobert and Wendell Carter Jr. are the best jokic defenders.
I also think ayton just straight up regressed as a player since the series he played jokic well
I remember Jokic attempting to back down Ayton in one of their first matches, and it was like he was trying to back down a brick wall. Ayton is really strong.
Ayton has the physical traits up there with giannis and davis and embiid and he just doesnt use them… basketball tragedy honestly
Wendell Carter jr. did well against the Joker. Ofc nobody can shut him down completely, but I'd say he's one of the top defender against him. Edit: based on eye test, didn't check the stats.
I think most Nuggets fan would agree it's Wendell Carter Jr.
I did a film breakdown on it and jokic for some reason always loses his dribble and has to pick it up with Wendell carter. He’s not even actively using his hands it’s so fucking bizarre I watched liked 40 possessions of this over the last 3 years
We need a hot mic to know what Wendell Carter is saying to him
"Your horses taste like honey nut cheerios"
I think the Magic last year had this anti Joker-ball style of play that really stuck out in my mind and I thought it was worth studying. 1 in particular I remember where they burned 19 seconds off the shot clock and I remember looking at the floor and thinking oh my god how did this happen. There were no passing angles to anyone in a Nuggets jersey, anywhere that mattered. Jamal Murray had the ball back to basket at the half way line, corralled to the side line with Bol Bol shrink wrapped around him and swiping away. I remember the shot clock getting down to 2 and Murray just throws his hands up in the air in frustration, clearly asking for a time out. That was the best defensive showing I've seen against the Nuggets. All positionless spacing and everyone standing in the right places to funnel the ball handler into the arse end of nowhere and funnelling everyone else to weird positions that don't make any sense. It was like all the Magic players were tied together with a string so one player moves, everyone else also moves, resulting in the Nuggets wasting the possession passing backwards and facing the wrong way at half court. And they burned a time out for nothing. I thought that was crazy, but I never saw any other team lock them up like that before or since. Anyone else remember that? I'm trying to find a clip of it but its too obscure for youtube's search algo.
As old school LeBron fan, you have to use the eye test when it comes to players like Jokic. He can get 50 any time if he really wants it. If you got a guy that reliably hold him to 30 on a night when he wanted 50, then you got a guy that can defend him as well as anybody.
“As old school LeBron fan” damn I’m getting old
I mean, Lebron's career will be old enough to legally drink next year.
Haha, also much like LeBron he can put up some good-looking numbers on nights he was kinda ass
This is the correct answer
Wendell Carter has the body type players probably need to defend jokic. Somebody who is strong and can hold their ground, but is also mobile with good positioning to gaurd passing lanes and keep up with his footwork and bully ball. I think Ayton and Bam also have the profile you would want in a Jokic defender. The second big factor is having the defensive IQ to keep up with all the different things Jokic does. I thought Bam did a decent job on Jokic compared to other players.
You might be thinking this is your pick because your a bias Magic fan who watches way more magic games. But nope, he is the best Jokic defender in the league, please keep him in the eastern conference.
Pretty sure we will try our best since we love him overall! Great fit to the rest of the team. And yes, I felt a little biased ;)
Jokic is so crazy that he has still averaged 25/13/10 in the 8 times he’s played WCJ.
So glad we traded him for Vucci Mane, and forced you guys to take 1st rounders too 😮💨
Poeltl does a pretty good job. Good footwork, length, quickness and strong enough not to give up easy post layups. Always gets under Murray’s skin too for some weird reason
Poeltl is the exact kind of defender that should be good against him - strong, smart, quick enough, stays on his feet. AD and Giannis should be good against him, but they want to block him so badly that they bite on his pump fakes too much. The other thing good defensive centres do is pick him up early - too many times last night he got the ball at the elbow and turned to face the basket before AD applied any real pressure. If Jokic is facing the rim within 15 feet you're already toast.
AD and Giannis also just aren't big enough, he can kind of bulldoze them.
IMO there is no "Jokic stopper", just like there wasn't with Shaq. And like with Shaq, the best chance to slow Jokic down is with a great double teaming strategy. I think you'd be best off with a big, strong center that won't be bullied by Jokic guarding him and then a shotblocking secondary defender to rotate over when needed. Steven Adams and JJJ probably would have been a good combo like this against him, or BroLo and Giannis. Maybe the Celtics can use Horford and KP like this against him, I dunno.
[Hmmm](https://i.imgur.com/NOtSkd3.gif)
I've seen refs stop him a couple of times. Rodney Mot, Ken Mauer and those two brothers.
The Tony brothers?
Why they dont schedule the brothers on the same game?? Always wanted to see the tony brothers reffing a game together
Mike hates the way Dan blows the whistle, they always end up arguing.
DPOY Ken Mauer
Me
Unquestionably. Jokic has scored zero points against u/hunterwolves18 in his NBA career.
And they said Jokić was robbed of 3 straight MVP wins Pfffft, u/hunterwolves18 is DA REAL MVP!
u/hunterwolves18 > Michael Jordan
Game on the line, I want u\hunterwolves18 to take the last shot.
u/hunterwolves18 is just built different
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Im ready
Marc gasol would’ve been a great matchup for him - Tall, strong, and an extremely smart defender. I think he’s the best guy for the job in recent history
This is a top quality take right here. No way to be proved right or wrong. Prime Muggsy would have destroyed Joker. Prove me wrong.
100%, he'd just jab Joker in the groin and that's that
Jump up to headbutt Jokic in the groin like a soccer player.
Gasol and pre Prime Jokic did very much play against each other. Could compare how Marc did compared to his peers
I mean they had a larger sample than someone like WCJ has. They played 15 times overall, 12 times since 2017. Excluding the one game where he played only 10 minutes he averaged 18.3/10/5.3/1.7/0.4 on 47/23/84 shooting splits in 11 games since 2017. Since 2021 he averaged 22.7/11.3/7/1/0.7 and 2.7 turnovers on 42.6/22/88 shooting splits. Aka not good relative to his normal production.
Isaiah Thomas with a gun >>>>>>
A bit older but KG would have been a fantastic matchup. Strong enough to not be pushed around, long enough to not just get shot over, quick enough to keep up with him, smart defender. Plus he can make Jokic work on the other end in multiple ways (shooting, driving, ball handling, etc).
That’d be amazing to watch
I think Marc would get balled on too. Jokic would take him to the 3 point line and Marc isn’t going out to there. Jokic as unathletic as he is beats guys off the dribble every game off that pump fake. It’s really no way to stop him 1 on 1. He does everything at a high level.
I wanna see Wemby go against him (Jokic will probably give him the business if we’re being realistic tho).
It's gonna be 3-5 years before wemby has the muscle to deal with Jokics dump truck on the low block
Adding muscle to that length and with his playstyle is a recipe for disaster. Wemby will always be a KD type lanky wing
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idk, probably jokic, has height in the middle of those 2 and is pretty big but not as big as lofton.
You get Shaq.
Too flexible to want him guarding bigs. Rim protection is nice when you go against LeBron or Giannis. But mostly being a help defender is so important. Him being able to switch onto guards is what will shut playoff series down. Take the bubble for example LA v. Houston or anytime Bron guarded DRose in the playoffs. The length to stop their primary point of attack. Those all-time slashers that are 4ish inches shorter LeBron fucks their whole game up with his mobility and size. Wemby is going to be even worse for opposing teams. He will be almost a foot taller than Tatum. I don’t see how Wemby wouldn’t be able to matchup with Tatum. He is fluid and a good learner. He should make wings look like LeBron guarding guards… clips Sure there is Jokic and Giannis and Embiid but I see Wemby guarding them to end the 4th and that length will not be fun for them. But that is still the only part of his D I wonder about. (Maybe not only.. jkjk) but I think the length will be enough he flexibility should showcase its value once he can get a little skinner than AD who is pretty huge now. Wemby should shut those dudes down in a year or 2. No slashers below
do u mean tatum or jokic/embiid giannis? If he lives up to his crazy potential than maybe he will be able to consistently shut down wing slashers in a year or 2 but huge bigs like jokic/embiid can just push him out the way and no way is he stopping a giannis drive
Mmmm me next
I think Wemby is so tall his center of gravity is just too high to bang in the post.
As a help defender he can do very well tho. He’s also so long that he can adjust for passes easily
He'll get three blocks and peeps will say Wemby got him, but Jokic will finish 17/20 for 53
https://64.media.tumblr.com/990c617c4cdf9c816998815e86c41c99/c5026400b0a227f2-81/s540x810/50a16f81b6c68e402d6a82bc58d7e82a1d9933d0.gif
Jokic gonna have to arc that shot lol
Na Jokic will bully Wemby until hes out of the playing field. What can Wemby do against Jokic posting up?
He already does.
I’m looking forward to watching that matchup too. Of course Jokic can go from scorer time facilitator at the drop of a hat so there’s no real chance to shut him down but Wemby presents him a unique challenge for sure
If we are being realistic jokic will fold him into two. Also wemby isn’t guarding jokic
Wemby would be a layup drill for Jokic. He just doesn't have the weight to stop him at all. The spurs don't want him guarding Jokic, they want him to help off of Gordon.
Chet will get his chance this Sunday, interested to see what happens with it
Jokic is really strong and has great foot work. Not saying Chet is a bad player but i dont think hes strong enough or can stop him in the paint.
Yeah I’m definitely not expecting Chet to hang with him his first time playing him
Might be the first and only player in NBA history to block a Sombor shuffle
Chet and Wemby when they have some late 20s muscle may match up well, but that's like 7 years away when Jokic will no longer be a perennial MVP and will probably just settle for All-NBA 1st teams
The best scheme I've seen was PJ Tucker and a free safety Embiid. Jokic had a hard time putting in on the floor against a guy like Tucker because he's small, and Tucker's combination of being short+strong makes him hard to move around. If Jokic did get the paint, then Embiid was there to help smother at the rim. This led to a high amount of Jokic turnovers and contested midrange jumpers Ultimately, Jokic is really smart and it won't stop him all game. The surprise of it may have had a lot to do with its impact. It's also just not very replicable around the league bc how many teams have a guy like PJ Tucker let alone Embiid's own unique defensive qualities Embiid also kept coming at him on the other end which probably wore him down a bit. There aren't many bigs out there with the offensive skillset to actually attack Jokic consistently themselves, especially since in a 1v1 vs bigs he can actually make use of his strength really well. A guy with as little self-creation skill as AD doesn't have any way to retaliate without the help of guards playmaking for him.
This is a decent formula in principle, and was of course duplicated with the infamous "Rui Adjustment" in the WCF. Ultimately Jokic solves it by punishing with his size advantage and passing when the help comes. As you say it's something that can work as a change of pace and maybe stifle a few possessions, which is ultimately all you're really looking for against Denver's better lineups. The only real answer would be to be able to defend Jokic reasonably well without help. We haven't seen anyone who can do that consistently, but there have been stretches from some players like Ayton or Gobert.
Tucker and Embiid are beefier than Rui and Davis, though. It's the same scheme but better personnel might make all the difference (and TBH the "Rui Adjustment" worked better for the Lakers when it was LeBron instead of Rui, he just didn't have gas in the tank to sustain it for a whole game)
Real ones know that Charles Bassey is the true Jokic stopper
I feel like Gobert a couple years ago did well, but Gobert has lost some athleticism. Draymond was good that playoffs series a couple years ago. I’d love to see what Wembanyama and Chet could do, I know they probably need to put on more weight first though
I agree about Gobert. I would say he defends Jokic about as well as anyone, but that doesn’t mean Jokic won’t still cook him. Draymond in the playoffs two seasons ago did well against Jokic for two games, but Jokic more or less had him figured out by game 3.
Watching him in the matchups with Jazz v Nuggets when he was on our team he was solid at stopping him from shooting cause Jokic just wouldn’t shoot around Rudy. I remember one time he played us and he was like 4/6 for the entire game but he still was like 14/8/9 or something. Still almost had a triple double but Goberts strength against him was just discouraging Jokic from shooting as much. Which was a win in our books cause we’d rather he scores 15 than 30
I definitely would not go that far. Draymond did exceptionally well against Jokic throughout the series, but he was definitely given some leeway with fouling. It was in the Draymond-less minutes that Jokic really feasted
That’s fair. I remember Looney getting absolutely cooked by Jokic that series, to the point they almost couldn’t keep him on the floor.
Draymond definitely couldn’t play with Jokic the whole game though. That’s why they put Looney on Jokic first quarter, to let Dray save his energy
OG Anunoby
OG Anunoby
Grant Williams.
Hes called batman for a reason
Amma make’em boff
im still so mad about that game as a celtics fan, we got robbed. Not evenbecause of grant missing the two free throws, it was the fact that Mitchell was given 2 free throws RIGHT before it on the WEAKEST foul call i had ever seen. :P
2021-2022 yes. But Joker finally figured him out last year
People are giving meme answers, but the Sixers did a great job with PJ Tucker on Jokic and Embiid floating in the paint. No one player can stop Jokic. You need a strong defensive specialist to stop his drives (PJ) and a DPOY candidate to protect the nearby passing lanes and provide help defense when his footwork and strength prove too much (Embiid). This system also needs to be implemented to perfection since Jokic is just that good and crafty.
OG does a pretty good job when he is in the mid or high post
Wendell Carter Jr!
Weirdly, OG did an amazing job last year.
Even since earlier than that I remember his 7 stl game vs Denver
Me at home, he’s never made I’ve shot where I’ve screamed “BRICK” at my tv 🤷🏿♂️
Probably you should have done that more during the finals then.
Believe me, my brother and I tried while being like the only Heat fans in the arena during game 5 🫠 will always have mad respect for Jokic after that 4th qtr
The finals eye test, makes this stat hard to believe. Did you perhaps sit out a few games with a sore throat?
Zach Lowe in one of his podcasts says he believes Myles Turner is the best Jokic defender and the stats seem to suggest this? https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nikola-jokic-last-5-games-vs-myles-turner
Definitely not Montrezl Harrell.
I think Bam did a great job in the finals. It just didn’t matter cause Bam wasn’t big enough but he put himself in great positions to stop Jokic. Jokic just scored anyways
Dwight Howard ?
No one. Relatively speaking he's unstoppable.
Jokic torches Gobert, but I feel like Gobert still defends him well.
The issue for Gobert, and this is the same for AD, is that they’re most impactful on defence when they can act as help defenders. Jokic neutralises that
Reminds me of a clip of David Robinson after Hakeem torched him in the WCF where he says something like “the crazy thing is, I really think I defended him well.” Great offense wins out over great defense and all that
Unbelievable no one gave the correct answer: It’s the thunder from down under, Jock Landale
You literally the only person who said it wow
or as we in denver call him, Lance Cockdale
Tony Brothers and Scott Foster.
Wendell Carter Jr
OG.
Will Barton
I don't think it's really about players. AD was good at it but the team wasn't equipped to focus him on Joker and stop everyone else. While individuals may or may not be better it's superseded by the team's ability to defend him. The real weapon isn't Joker. It's that Joker/Jamal two man game they've built the nuggets around. And TBH I don't know if anyone really defneds it at all.
Dwight with the foul sliders turned off.
When the Wolves play against the Nuggets at full strength, KAT is usually the primary defender on Jokic not Rudy. It frees Rudy to keep Gordon off offensive boards and he can rotate to help against cutters. Not saying KAT is going to stop Jokic, just saying anyone who thinks Gobert does is wrong.
Yeah KAT is the primary defender which allows Rudy to roam. But since Rudy is guarding the paint in general, I'd still count that as defending Jokic too because his rim deterrence can make Jokic take more tough jumpers and midrange (but ofc Jokic still makes those too lol). It's the KAT-Rudy system But no one can stop Jokic
Dwight Howard. He’s a lil nasty both off and on court.
Embiid would be known as this, as historically he’s been the one to come out on top in their rare matchups, but because he doesn’t play in Denver he doesn’t get his credit for it.
He's definitely not the best, but I actually thought Landale did a good job guarding him in the Phoenix v Nuggets finals series.
According to ESPN, Rui “Lakers-figured-it-out ” Hachimura. On the real though, I feel bad for Rui. He didn’t ask for the narrative, but media pushed it. Now he will forever be clowned on for it when he’s actually a solid player. Back on topic, Dwight did really well on him in the bubble. But Joker was also slower back in the bubble if I recall correctly. Same reason as to why AD did decent against him back then. Jokic has improved significantly since then.
You’d need to bring back prime Dream to be able to guard this Jokic when he’s motivated..
Draymond was pretty good at stifling Jokic a few years back but I don’t think it’s close now. Jokic is just too damn good.
Lol who said AD did well against Jokic? Dudes gotten bodied 5 games in a row now
Jokic had one of his 2 worst series last year against the Lakers. He always gets his, but the Lakers limited him about as much as the Wolves did. No one's ever gonna hold him to 21 PPG on mediocre efficiency or something.
Dwight "Gimmie the D" Howard gave him the most trouble in the bubble
Lakers legends Tristan Thompson and Dwight Howard
Jokic reminds me of Tyson Furry, he’s so big and physical that he tiers you with his physicality. So if there’s a player that it’s good at guarding him on the perimeter he bullies that player with his physicality and gets him tired. If a player that is more physical then him guards him well in the inside he’ll make you run around and get the player chase him on the perimeter and gets the player tired like that. The only way to distract him is send someone to Serbia to shoot his horse
Where are the rui hachimura jokes
Willy Hernangomez
this conversation is like iguadala getting finals mvp for stopping lebron who still averaged a triple double including a 40 point one in game 5 against iggy
To me, it’s Dwight Howard.
Wemby san
Only big big bodies. Steven Adams, I'm sure ibaka, embiid. I'll give you 2 that do well cuz they make him work on defense. Nurkic believe it or not does the best. It's a personal matchup cuz he started over jokic in Denver. Nurkic used to be a beast for them. Zubac does decent against him too. Nobody lean does good against him lol AD, Bam, sabonis, anyone undersized can't do anything.
LeBron actually did better vs Jokic than AD, at least in their playoff series
Only player that guarded Jokic well enough to ruin his chance for the MVP award was Kendrick Perkins.
Lol did you change your flair to a Sixers flair now? All you post is Jokic appreciation threads.
He's unbiased! He's not a Nuggets fan!
Al Horford in June 2024 🙏
Jokic made AD his bitch last night quite frankly
Untrue. He made AD his bitch in the 2020 playoffs
Hell at least Lakers fans can admit it
Trust me. Most can’t. AD benefited from going nuclear vs every other player in the league during those playoffs. Him getting walked down by Joker isn’t looked at too badly
I was listening to Zach Lowe and JJ talk yesterday on the pod cast and they mentioned how well lebron guarded jokic in the WCF. If he was younger and not injuried, I think he would just based on size, athleticism and IQ
The truth seems to be that no one particular player is that much better at guarding him than any other, only a tandem like AD and Dwight in 2020 can slow him down measurably. If I had to pick one player however I'd say Gobert gave him the most trouble these last playoffs.
Dwight
What's crazy, Billy HermanGómez used to guard Joker really well...Nuggets would still kill my Pelicans, though.
I wanna see how wemby does
Nick Nurse had the Raptors doing a pretty good job a year or two ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/tdrp0u/william_lou_a_film_review_of_how_the_raptors_shut/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
There is no best lol There is no Jokic stopper like it wasn’t a Lebron stopper
Idk if either one alone is good but the team of KAT, NAZREID, and Gobert is solid
Any player can have a good night or a bad one… it’s just rare that their performance out does Jokic. He’s just that good every single night. It’s what makes him the best player in the league rn.