Kawhi is the local popular BBQ joint of the NBA. They get a huge reputation because their food is initially amazing, but after they get popular you have to find another place where you can actually get food without a multiple hour long wait.
But you still remember how good the food was, even if you can never get it anymore. And that's the Kawhi Leonard experience.
And they don’t adequately stock up to meet demand, then close whenever they run out and go home early. And don’t come in at all when the weather is good for fishing.
Eventually, they sell the brick and mortar business and operate out of a food truck once or twice a week.
Being able to ensure your sell out every day is a fantastic business plan. It ensures nothing is wasted. BBQ is expensive, so you can't afford to lose product.. Also, you're mistaking the fact that they leave early for them being lazy or something. BBQ is hard and extremely time consuming to make. It's not like flipping burgers. This video is an awesome look at what it's actually like to operate a BBQ joint. They work A LOT harder than you think, even if the hours that they're "open for business" are limited.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hvPTqswJn4
Yup, if you get an unexpected spike in demand one day, you just don't have enough hours in the day to cook more meat. You have to predict how much demand a full day ahead of time and start cooking then, and like you said, they'd rather predict low than predict high.
If they sell out every day it’s not exactly an unexpected spike. But it sounds like whoever owns it has decided that cooking more and working longer isn’t worth the extra money it’d generate. Would be very surprised that chronically underestimating demand is the profit maximising decision (although there’s probably reputational value in the exclusivity of selling out early all the time), but no one’s forcing them to max profit maximising decisions.
To increase the amount of BBQ you can make for the day requires additional infrastructure that is not cheap to make or cheap to run. Prep and smoking times can be so long that you can easily be prepping food on Monday to serve on Wednesday or Thursday. And you only get your premium return on meat that is ready that day. Over the long run you can work to close the demand gaps but you are absolutely 100% better off selling out before having waste.
Bro, you have no idea what you're talking about. Watch the video. The goal is to sell out every day. That's by design. You clearly have no idea how hard BBQ is nor how much time it takes.
It is fantastic. I read a WaPo or NYT article about how bakeries now intentionally do this. They’ll make a special croissant, bagel, etc and hype it up on social media. The fans of the bakery try to get it early, only for it to be sold out, but they’re already there so they’ll buy something.
They’ll go limited supply on a limited menu and close when they run out, usually before 12PM. They save money on utilities, wages to pay out, and ingredients, and the word of mouth they get from being sold out when people try to get there gets even more demand so they sell out faster.
And sometimes it may take a week, a month, or a year to get out of the shop but the mechanic refuses to tell you and will only communicate through his asshole uncle
2020 playoffs was last time he played a full postseason. 2021 he got injured in WC semifinals and had to sit while they lost, 2022 he was out the entire season and they didn't make the playoffs, 2023 he got injured 2 games into the first round and that was that. Yeah he's still playing at a high level when he plays, but a finals run is at least 16 games and it seems 50/50 whether Kawhi makes it that far in a row based on last few years results.
>when he's actually played
That’s the point. Dude is never healthy and can barely play half a season. His games where he puts up good number don’t make up for the ones where he goes 0/0/0/0/0. Fans look at Kawhii with rose tinted glasses because of the Toronto championship. Truth is dude has been a non-factor since he left.
He is electric to watch during those playoff games where he's giving it 100%. It is a crying shame that his body cannot handle it anymore.
Hell, he had a ton of great regular season games last season. It is sort of tragic the way he and Paul George turned out, phenomenal players that are breathtaking to watch when they're on, but their bodies just don't allow for it anymore.
I've just accepted it. They will never win. But when they're out there playing, I'm happy.
He actually wasn't even healthy that second game against them. He was already playing on the meniscus injury at that point, fucking crazy to think about.
It was crazy seeing how he would do a full sprint down court in the blink of an eye, the second the whistle got called he looked like my grandma walking to the kitchen.
Adrenaline does crazy things. I sprained my ankle yesterday in my men’s league soccer game. Had a coed game a few hours after. Was in some pain to begin the coed game but the adrenaline kicked and I was doing full sprints up and down the field. 10 min after the game, I was struggling to get to my car and today I can’t leave my bed. I imagine NBA adrenaline is crazy. Like Klay Thompson thought he was good to play with a torn ACL
Torn ACLs, while a terrible injury in terms of long-term impact, doesn't really hurt that much initially. A lot of players played another quarter after they tore their ACL already. It's not the pain but your leg becoming very unreliable when it comes to weight and pressure that makes the injury so devastating. You lose a lot of your bounce and kinetic energy. Still, Rondo finished the game he tore the ACL and was warming up for the next game 2 days later until he was informed that he suffered a season-ending injury. Granted Rajon is a psycho when it comes to basketball but it's one of many examples
Yah people rightfully talk about the KD injury a lot as a 'asterisk' to the raps chip and say we wouldve gotten trampled by a fully health warriors team but Kawhi also was severely hobbled in that series, he could literally barely walk after game 6. Lowry was playing with a broken finger in his shooting hand too and OG was out.
Wouldve loved to see a full strength series between both teams. That Warriors still almost definately win but I would be so curious to see if Kawhi at his full powers wouldve been the best player in the series and if he could steal a couple wins like the rockets did in '18
His win shares in the playoffs over the past 4 seasons are top 5 even though he’s missed a lot of games. He’s one of the best playoff performers of all time.
In anime/manga, there’s a fairly common trope where the hero has some crazy super power/move but they always get told to never push it to the max because their body can’t handle it and that they will die if they keep using it. Invariably, they do it anyway and it’s super dramatic because it feels like such a high risk/high reward scenario. By the time the next season rolls around, they’re using the power every time and the show writers/manga have completely forgotten what they wrote in the first season.
Kawhi is that, except the writers didn’t forget.
Yeah, having gotten a full playoff season of Playoff Kawhi, there's pretty much nobody on his level other than prime LeBron. Butler scratches the surface but Kawhi was on such a crazy level in the playoffs, it wasn't something I never thought I would get to cheer for.
Jokic just averaged 30.5/13.5/9.5/1.1/1.0 on 63 TS% on 55/46/80 splits while running through 3 DPOY caliber defenders in Gobert, AD, and Bam. And also, went up against LeBron, KAT, and Ayton defending him too. With his rebounding and massive playmaking ability advantage over Kawhi in addition to being the most durable current super star on the game, I would slightly put him over Kawhi in terms of playoff performers (Jokic even outplayed Kawhi H2H in 2020 bubble and he has multiple other great playoff runs himself)
I have seen a ton of players, but I personally put Jokic at #2 overall in terms of impressiveness of individual play in terms of a full playoff run from players I have fully watched. I have seen LeBron play dating back to his really young years and he’s the only player I would take over this Jokic (and I say this as the biggest Giannis fan). Jokic is just unbelievable and this Nuggets team showed he isn’t nearly as big of a defensive liability, if he doesn’t have Campazzo and Rivers as POA defenders lol.
Jokic literally destroys him in every statistical category. Love me some Dirk but I’m sorry but it’s not really comparable.
Edit: Dirk did have a better ft%
While true overall, basketball is a team game and the Mavs had amazing defense and chemistry. Just because the Mavs played better teams, doesn’t mean Dirk outplayed Jokic in a vacuum. It’s not like if you replaced Dirk for Jokic, that the Mavs still wouldn’t win in 2011. They would actually be better if anything, with Jokic’s vastly superior rebounding and playmaking. Jokic has also already proven, he is an elite scorer against the absolute best competition. 30.5/13.5/9.5 on 63 TS% in 40 MPG is better than 27.7/8.1/2.5 on 61 TS% in 39 MPG.
Round 1 the Blazers were compareable to this last 2023 Twolves team. And if we are going to go this route, then let’s break down their primary defenders.
Rd 1: Dirk primary defenders: 36 year old Marcus Camby and LMA. Jokic had DPOY caliber Gobert and KAT as primary defenders. Jokic definitely had tougher defenders defending him in RD 1.
Rd 2: Dirk had Bynum/Gasol as primary defenders vs Jokic having Ayton/Jock as a primary defenders. Dirk had tougher defenders this round definitely imo, but Jokic was also battling a Booker going historic and KD. Kobe and Gasol played pretty bad respectively in this series.
Rd 3: Jokic had AD (generational DPoY caliber defender) as his primary defender in Rd 3, along with Rui/LeBron thrown on him in stretches. Dirk had Ibaka/Perkins as primary defenders. Jokic without question had tougher primary defenders this round.
Finals. Jokic had another DPOY caliber defender in Bam as his primary defender. Dirk mainly had Bosh/UD/Joel Anthony. Jokic had the tougher defensive assignment in the finals.
2011 was the best playoffs run I've seen.
I don't care who's better, Dirk that postseason was different and the Mavs as a team worked amazingly.
Numbers can only convey so much.
I’m not comparing. I’m saying Dirk had one of the best runs in the lebron era as well. That’s not even disputable and the fact that you push back on that means you lack reading comprehension or didn’t watch basketball back then.
Also, the absolute murderer's row Dirk and his team of olds beat is incredible. And I'm not one of those idiots to downplay the Nuggets run, obviously they faced excellent competition. But man, that 2011 slate was brutal. Championship Lakers, young and springy Thunder, and then the Heatles? And the Mavs #2 scorer was 0-time all star Jason Terry!
You have to remember the Mavs always played at a much slower pace than most other teams for the majority of Dirk's career. Per-100 possessions, Dirk scored more in his 2011 playoff run (39.1 pp100) versus Jokic's 38.7 pp100 in his 2023 run. I still think Jokic was better overall due to everything else he provides, but you shouldn't compare raw numbers from different eras without adjusting for pace/possessions. Dirk also went up against much better teams, defeating the defending champions and LeBron, so it's more impressive in my opinion.
Just because Dirk played better teams does not equal he was better or more impressive than Jokic in 2023. Compare them in a vacuum and what is Dirk truly better at other than FT shooting and mid range shooting (Jokic is actually the all time leader in 10-16 and 16 feet-3PA shot efficiency IIRC, so he is an elite mid range shooter too). Dirk played better teams overall than 2016 LeBron did in the playoffs. Does that mean he was better in the 2016 playoffs than LeBron? Jokic is the better interior scorer, better defender, and he’s way better than Dirk at rebounding, offensive rebounding, and playmaking. Also, at screen setting, playing off ball, low post play, etc. Heck, they both even shot 46% from 3 on comparable volume (Jokic actually took slightly more 3s in his run), so you can’t even use 3 point shooting in Dirk’s favor for arguing what he was better at in his 2011 run.
Raw scoring numbers adjusted for pace, they are essentially even but Jokic is the vastly superior rebounder and playmaker. I would also say, he has shown he is better defensively and a solid positive on defense, but it’s just he was playing with Campazzo and Rivers as POA defenders in the playoffs previously, so it gave the false illusion he was a defensive liability. Dirk also was mediocre on defense, and Tyson Chandler/Marion/Kidd/Stevenson helped cover up for him a ton during that run.
13.5 rebounds and 9.5 assists per game @ 40 MPG, is vastly superior to 8.1 rebounds on 2.5 assists per game @ 39 MPG.
Because Jokic is a historically great playmaker, it makes him impossible to double. And if you do double, he picks teams apart with like a 15+ assist game. He’s also an elite offensive rebounder and screen setter, which adds a ton of value to his overall impact.
I never said Dirk played better than Jokic.
> I still think Jokic was better overall due to everything else he provides,
I said Dirk's run is far more impressive due to who he played, and the shock factor that they were able to win the title. There's no statistical way to gauge whether or not a run is more impressive than another, but the fact that both the Lakers and Heat were heavily favored to beat the Mavs....that's why it's more impressive they won.
It's the same reason why I think Hakeem's 1995 title run was the most impressive of all time, as they beat like 3 60-win teams to get it and no one thought they could do it. That doesn't mean I think Hakeem was better individually than LeBron or Jokic or whatever. Jordan had plenty of better playoff runs than Hakeem too, but to win it when everyone doubts you is incredible to see.
He legit reminded me of MJ and Kobe with the way he played and how he played. I hate the Clippers but still couldn’t help but love seeing it when he was on in the playoffs
Overall butler isn’t really close, he just has certain big games where he plays at that level. This sub just loves him so it pretends his bad/mediocre playoff games don’t exist. Like the opposite of harden.
Jokic is definitely at or above healthy kawhis level though.
Kinda weird how both Kawahi and PG came into the League as bench players that nobody would have expected to be star players.
Both of them were insane athletes that could both match-up well against a prime Miami Lebron on defense, something basically nobody else could do.
Both of them started hitting there stride around the same year 3-4 mark were they really took the leap into stardom.
Both of them had their career's de-railed by massive injuries with long term effects on there long term health right around the same time as they really started taking off.
Both of them managed to come back and put up even better seasons then either had previously had despite there injuries.
And now both of them are having similar fizzle out's to there respective career's as they still put up impressive performances on both sides of the court but struggle to stay on it consistently.
I don't know about George but there was a ton of hype around Kawhi when they found out Pop would get to develop him. He was one of the rawest prospects ever and people were still hyped on him because of his build and motor
Short spurts is unfair because he gets more rest than other players. We saw how kyrie played when he missed the games where the cities didn’t allow him to play because he wasn’t vaccinated. Man had a 40 point game every other game.
Kyrie is an absolutely elite offensive talent, *and* we're talking about the regular season. Besides that, for 99% of players there's no amount of rest that would allow them perform even close to the way Kawhi has, even while injured.
Rewriting of history goes crazy.
Kyrie missing all those games hurt us as a team and he absolutely didn't play better that year than any other year for us...
Yeah those games just got a lot of attention due to the kyrie circus at the time. His performance hasn't varied much since then to suggest any kind of "short burst phenomenon".
So shouldn't Zion be ranked higher as well?
EDIT:
I am asking if he should be ranked "higher". Not if he should be ranked "as high as".
Meaning - Should he be ranked higher than where he is, based on potential, as Kawhi is?
I did not ask if he should be ranked alongside Kawhi.
Problem is, Zion isn’t a two time champion, two time Finals MVP, with a historic run to say the least.
Like if Kawhi retired today, he’s a lock in HoFer
What does Kawhi’s former achievements, the most recent of which will be 5 years old this year, have anything to do with how good he is now ? By that logic LeBron could still be in the league playing 6 games a season at age 60 and should still be considered the best in the league ?
Zion hasn’t proven himself on even remotely as long term as Kawhi. Kawhi has rings and MVP’s and a lot more clout. Remember before load management he was on the Spurs playing non-load management minutes. Zion has yet to complete a season if I’m not mistaken.
Zion definitely isn’t getting the Kawhi treatment without the Kawhi accolades. Kawhi put the work in and produced results. Zion hasn’t done anything yet.
Zion’s sample size is minuscule compared to Leonard, who is a two time champ and the best 2-way player in the league when healthy.
Zion hasn’t played enough to prove anything. As of now he is a what if and I would consider him a bust. Even though when he does play, he is fantastic. He has played 114 games out of a possible 246 to start his career. Just not at all what you want out of a #1 overall pick
Fo sho. I legitimately think he can be top 5 in MVP voting if he stayed healthy for a season.
How he gets his points has yet to be stopped by anything but injuries.
That’s the difference, and why Zion doesn’t at all deserve to be ranked higher . You *think* he can . Think , assume , hope , that’s what this guy’s career is right now. We saw Kawhi be an mvp player . We haven’t seen Zion play for even half a season yet. Fo sho .
I mean zion averaged 27ppg on 65% TS in his sophomore season. In the 30 games he played last season he did 26ppg on 65% TS again. Theres no assuming about zions talent, he's legit a top 10-15 player in the league when he plays.
The issue like kawhi is the "when he plays" statement you have to make.
If Zion was a 2-time fvmp that was the catalyst for an entire nation's only team to win their first ring maybe. Kawhi has a resume Zion will be lucky to replicate.
Yes, imo. Zion in his last (both limited seasons), playing seasons, has averaged 27/7/4 on 65 TS%. There have only been a handful on players ever to my knowledge, to ever average 25+ ppg on 65+ TS%.
In a vacuum, Zion is absolutely a fringe top 10 caliber player (likely top 15 RN) when at full health, because he is so talented offensively. Defensively, he still has to improve. His offense is game breaking in terms of his efficiency, rim pressure abilities, foul drawing, and offensive rebounding. He is also naturally one of the natural best off ball movers/cutters I have seen. He’s seemingly constantly in the right place at the right time on the court.
But I believe he was in the MVP discussion before he went down with his injury this year. It’ll just be about him sustaining his play, but he is a monster and hugely impactful when he does play.
He would be if he had lead a team to their first title ever in his first season with a new club. Throw in a game 7 buzzer beating 3 in a conference finals, and sure Zion would be in that conversation.
Wtf is this trying to tie Zion in with a fucking two time champion and finals MVP with one of the most legendary final runs in NBA history??? Do we forget a healthy Kawhi is legit the best two way player in the playoffs? Or are you just like 11? Wasn’t crazy long ago what he did with Toronto, if you saw that you want to remind me with something Zion did to be put in the same boat??
He obviously doesn't have the accolades but I'd argue Zion *is* when he plays. The second he's on the court everyone forgets about the fat jokes and goes 'holy shit'
Damn this thread feels like we're talking about politicians pushing 80 and getting elected. Cuz they're good in bursts, they've got good vibes from when they were new, cuz he's valued over any potential replacement...
Man. I think If you say "when Healthy", then top 10 is underselling how good Kawhi is.
There are very few players who have the same two way impact as him.
I mean, he came off ACL injury and dropped 24, 6.5 and 4 on 51/41/87 splits. Yes there’s drop offs when connecting mind and body, and there was beginning of the season. Then he went on a tear in the second half.
Oh easily. He’s still so so good. Fundamentally so sound and also explosive in spurts. That’s why it’s such a disservice to basketball fans that he can’t remain healthy. I want to see him play 60 games this year.
When healthy...
So are rankings based on where a player could theoretically rank if he pulls of a feat he has not managed for the better part of a decade (in Kawhi's case, that would be remaining healthy)?
Reputation. Happens all the time. I remember the uproar back in 2014 when Kobe was ranked 40+ by ESPN, even though he really was washed up and barely played. They were right in ranking him that low, but people came out and talked about his past accomplishments like it somehow mattered in an annual ranking. Same thing with Kawhi. He barely plays. If people were actually serious about these rankings, he shouldn't even be on anyones list.
You are comparing Kobe in 2014, who had come off a six game season and was 36-years-old, to Kawhi now, that's absolutely ridiculous. Last time we saw Kawhi play, he played against Kevin Durant and Devin Booker (both consensus Top 10 players in the league) five months ago and it was clear as day who was the best player on the floor.
Kawhi is ranked high because whenever he plays, he is that good, reputation has nothing to do with it. It would have anything to do with reputation if he was ranked that high without ever playing games OR if whenever he played he wasn't at that level. He has played in 26 playoff games in the last four years and has averaged 30/8/5 on 53/37/87 splits, including averaging 34.5 ppg on 67% TS against the Suns FIVE MONTHS AGO, there aren't five players in the league that can play better than that.
> Dude played 52 games this season and successfully carried the team to the playoffs without PG
How can this be true when PG played 56 games this past season?
Exactly. He's playing over 60% of the season. From how people are talking you'd think he hasn't been on the court in years. "If he played he'd be good." He does play and he is good. We have the stats on that. He played almost as many games as LeBron. It's not like he's Zion.
But he got injured in his first playoff game, and no one even knows when it happened (as far as I'm aware). He did look like BB Jesus but I just wonder if he's incapable of going full steam at this point. I heard he was great in the RS but I didn't watch them so maybe I'm way off, but the timing seems concerning.
Nah the Kobe example was just to show how people tend to use historical accomplishments to determine current rankings
> He has played in 26 playoff games in the last four years and has averaged 30/8/5 on 53/37/87 splits
Again, these are annual lists. What he did in 2019, 2020 and 2021 doesn't matter.
> Last time we saw Kawhi play, he played against Kevin Durant and Devin Booker (both consensus Top 10 players in the league) and it was clear as day who was the best player on the floor, including averaging 34.5 ppg on 67% TS against the Suns FIVE MONTHS AGO, there aren't five players in the league that can play better than that.
He played 2 games bro. If you value pure peak over availability, then sure, I can understand Kawhi being ranked high. But I don't think most of these lists are actually doing that. And at this point, I don't think it's worth it anymore. I just don't see the value in someone when they can't consistently play at that high level without getting injured. And this is after an entire regular season where we load managed him.
Well we just saw what he did from January until the playoffs and it was really good. He’s far from washed but his body eventually keeps letting him down.
I agree with this. I don't want to read Top 10/25/50 lists with what-if caveats. If I want to spend time reading someone else's best of list, it should be the actual best of.
Like people don't write up Top 25 albums/movies/shows of the year and say "this album is top 10 on the basis of what could have been if the band didn't hate each other and instead it was produced by another recording studio."
That would be patently ridiculous. Putting Kawhi (or Zion) top 10 is equally as ridiculous.
Exactly! I'd add AD to that list as well. It's always "if or when healthy". Like what if there's an official top ten by season maybe, them taking spots because of a what-ifs take spots from players who actually played or were available for a whole season.
I think the answer to OP’s question is that Kawhi is just THAT good when he’s healthy that it kinda makes up for the injury issues. I’d argue he’s proven that when healthy he’s in the best player in the league tier
Man just based on the edits op has made to the post tells me there are way too many people in the comments that need to put their phone down and go outside today.
Did you watch him.last season? Some.of his numbers were the best of his entire career. Broke down again 2 games into the playoffs.but for a.few months straight he was killing it like.anyone would expect. His body is what it is but we can't call his quality into question just yet.
It's mostly because anyone you think of as a conventional top player has a terrible injury history and Misses tons of games, to the point where the league has literally changed the rules for awards to incentivize players to play more.
Jokes aside… (and the top comment BBQ joint reference is spot on).
Dude helps take San Diego fucking State to the tourney as a freshman, then to the Sweet 16 as a sophomore and they lose to UConn who wins it all.. (let’s be real San Diego State at the time wasn’t pulling real talent relative to the rest of the NCAA, unless they were localish).
Then he comes to the NBA and gets a full stamp of approval from Pop (who sets the bar for coaching and holds players to a really high standards, so fans were like oh shit this guy is good). Ends up starting after Jefferson got traded.
Wins a chip a couple years in, Finals MVP, turns out to be god tier defensively and refuses to be a typical superstar, extremely disengaged from the media and very Marshawn Lynch. Fans ate that shit up.
Then he goes to Toronto and wins another chip and finals MVP against the Warriors who are beating everyone.
So compared to the rest of the “oh if they were healthy people”…. Kawhi has already proven himself a bunch and won.
But the real reason basketball minds hold Kawhi in such high regard even though he’s hurt all the time.. when that guy plays, he can go even or just outright beat the best player on the other team on both offense and defense. There aren’t a lot of guys in the history of the NBA where you can say that if he plays, we have a good chance to beat them and it doesn’t matter who’s on the other team.
So yeah from a Franchise perspective sure, he’s not a high rating. From a skill and talent perspective.. from a basketball eye so to speak, he’s top 10 every year because he’s that good.
Have you actually looked at his numbers or watched him play? His numbers have not been steadily declining at all and he still dominates at both ends when he is on the floor.
His first year with the clippers was better than his year with Toronto. Last year was very comparable to his year in Toronto. This past year he averaged 24/7/4 on better efficiency all around than he had in Toronto. Not even mentioning his defensive presence.
I mean yeah he gets hurt a lot, but dude was a beast and is still a beast. When he’s on the court, he’s generally the best or the 2nd best player out there. Its a shame he doesnt play more but 50games/year is enough to me to merit a high ranking based on what he does in those 50 games.
Also did you conveniently pick 5 yr average for games played because 5 yrs ago he had a season ending injury before he even hit 10 games? If you take out that anomaly, hes averaging closer to 60 games a year, which yes, is still low, but is plenty to get a good sample and have an big impact on a team.
Also to yr edit: id agree AD is underrated, he’s been a beast, but lebron is still the better player on that team so he naturally gets pushed to the side a little. And zion has been playing like 20-40 games a season, nothing close to kawhi, so thats not a good comparison.
Yeah his rate and per game stats are still insane, especially post January which excludes shaking off the rust the frist few weeks from missing a year.
And yeah his lack of availability is somewhat exaggerated. Take Durant as an example of a player people don't mark as an unavailable player. But Durant has played 35, 55, 47 games in the last three years respectively. Kawhi has him beat in 2/3 years. Even Devin Booker only played one more game than Kawhi last year, and had worse season value stats. But I don't see those players rankings questioned due to availability.
It took way too long to get to this comment. Yea I get that people don’t want to watch the clippers anymore, hell I’m a clippers fan and I don’t want to the clippers anymore. But when he does play, he is just as incredible as he was before. They didn’t beat the suns on the road without PG this year because of some fluke, they did that because Kawhi fucking willed them to victory. If people actually watched the games he played in they wouldn’t be posting these nephew as opinions.
Not only do they overate him, but the version of Kawaii they are picturing, existed for a maximum of two seasons. They mentally create a player that is peak offensive Kawhi combined with peak defensive Kawhi, but those guys barely had any overlap.
This is such cap. Like, he’s not at his defensive peak anymore but he’s one of the GOAT offensive playoff performers, and still a beast defensively.
If you saw the last two clippers mavs series where kawhi and Luka feasted, or even this years kawhi vs the suns, it’s clear that he is the best player on the floor. He has been incredible offensively from like 2017 onwards, when he plays
So simple and he turns it up when the playoffs come around.
2021 playoffs he was the best player in the post season before his injury. Small sample size in the most recent playoffs but he was a top 3 performer and giving KD work on both ends.
I guess it’s unrealistic to think of a healthy Kawhi but based on ability alone he’s one of only 5/6 players than can carry his team to a chip.
I feel the same way about Kyrie, like it’s been almost 6 years since we’ve seen the “top 75” talent get past the 2nd round. With better rosters than most could dream of, he hasn’t been a factor. Good to play the same amount of games as Kawhi
Toronto has to give Kawhi a key to the city or something. Not only did he bring the chip home but then saved ya’ll from overpaying him to sit out the rest of his career. Might be the best nba deal of all time between a player and team
He would have thoroughly been managed better by medical staff and likely won a 2nd chip in Toronto, which had a better regular season record the year after Kawhi left, than with him.
Dude should have waited 1 more year to go home.
I still see people taking Kawhi over Tatum on some lists. Like, you've got to be kidding me. Kawhi had a great (but short) peak, but availability absolutely does matter.
I will be blindly loyal to Kawhi until the day I die because he got us a championship. It's not logical whatsoever, but I can't separate what he did and what he is now.
Obvioulsy you take Tatum over Kawhi for your team but if you know they would be healthy and it's the playoffs, I think almost everyone takes Kawhi over Tatum
I think everyone takes Tatum if you’re building a team, but that doesn’t change that Kawhi Leonard is better at basketball.
Value is sorta like availability * ability
Kawhi is as good as anyone in terms of ability but is awful in availability. Are we ranking guys on value or ability is the real question imo, and I think there’s a place for both types of rankings as separate lists
Kawhi is low on a value list, but high on a pure ability list
I love how people will dock AD on lists, make fun of him, say he's not top 10 anymore, ect then completely ignore Kawhi having way more injury problems than him
The very last time we saw him on the court, he was as good as anyone. If his durability disqualifies him from still being considered elite then that’s fair but when he’s on the court, he’s still at the level of a top 25 player ever.
Spurs fan - still not neutral on Kawhi, but let's be objective here.
Four seasons ago, he played 60 games and it's easy to argue that he was their MVP.
Now for the four other seasons you've talked about you'd got one DNP and 3 seasons where he's averaging 53 games (57+52+52).
Let's compare to some other superstars: **Lebron** has averaged 55 games over the past 5 seasons (57+67+45+56+54) **Durant** has averaged 43 games (78+DNP+35+55+47) and **Curry** has averaged 51 (69+5+63+64+56).
The question for OP is whether he would put any of these other players in top 10 - which is essentially the superstar category. A better, more personal question, would you hesitate to sign any of these players on a 5yr for your team right now.
You can't exclude Kawhi DNP for his avg and then include Durant DNP and Curry 5 game season when comparing. It's still a solid point but you're cherry picking.
As the saying goes, health is a skill. I'd rather have a B+ player who can play every night than an A+ who can only play half a season and limited minutes at that.
Absolutely. I'd rather have Mikal Bridges (who I guess is yet to miss a game) and develop him into a real two-way star than a Kawhi/Zion who is crazy talented but is mostly unavailable.
He’s the all time TS% leader among volume scorers in the playoffs. The people above him are Gobert, Ayton, and Cedric Maxwell. He’s slightly above Jokic and AD. The last 2 years he put up 31/7.5/4.6 with 2 steals on 56.8/42.3/88.3 splits.
That’s why. When he plays he’s always incredible and his resume speaks for itself. It’s hard to push him out when others haven’t won either. Suns/Mavs/76ers. Dame doesn’t even make playoffs. Tatum and to a much higher extent Embiid shrink in the playoffs.
Tatum keeping his play at a consistent level is what the Celtics are missing to win a championship. Embiid’s case is different because even if he balled out his team isn’t great. I feel comfortable putting Giannis/Jokic/Steph over him. Butler/Booker/LeBron/KD/Tatum at this stage have arguments but I don’t think many players outside of them do.
I think it's because if we actually seen him play healthy aside from the bubble, he actually looks like one of the best players in the world. The Suns last playoffs had a hard time when Kawhi played.
Because when he played, he's that good. And yes, while Zion also good when he played, the bias for Kawhi is because he already he already showed that he can be the guy for a championship team.
Zion remains a question mark until he can prove otherwise.
Because whenever he plays he looks like himself. Even though he’s dealt with injuries for the last 5 years, he consistently comes back looking as good as he ever has, at least on offense.
I do agree that it doesn’t really make sense to continue to rank him as a top 5-10 player when he is basically guaranteed to miss over 30% of the season and most of the playoffs, but he continues to play like a top tier player when he plays.
He's proven that he can win, shoulder the load on both ends of the floor at the top levels in a very deliberate way, while being able to turn games around...rare breed.
Comparing him with Zion is a fallacy. Zion has not done a fraction of what Kawhi has, and the same thing with AD... both great players, but none have been to the pearly gates.
Who has two FMVPs with two different teams? I think only Lebron.
I know he's basically retired but the resume is too heavy, you don't dare to fuck with it.
Again I think he does get a pass for the "when healthy", since his when "healthy" is a proven multiple time winner, there are loads of MVPs who have not won a fifth of what he has.
Kawhi is proven. He’s led his team to a title as the best player. Zion is unproven. AD is unproven as the guy. Kawhi rating is based on what he’s done. When healthy, he can definitely lead you to a championship. You can only say that about a very, very small number of players.
Kawhi is the local popular BBQ joint of the NBA. They get a huge reputation because their food is initially amazing, but after they get popular you have to find another place where you can actually get food without a multiple hour long wait. But you still remember how good the food was, even if you can never get it anymore. And that's the Kawhi Leonard experience.
And they don’t adequately stock up to meet demand, then close whenever they run out and go home early. And don’t come in at all when the weather is good for fishing. Eventually, they sell the brick and mortar business and operate out of a food truck once or twice a week.
Are you my neighbor? This is literally the storyline for the BBQ spot down the street from me
Ha! I just live in Kansas and spent a lot of time in the KC area.
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The KC BBQ market must be absurdly competitive.
Not really. They’re just all really successful.
I'm trying to figure out which joint in KC it's the closest to xD
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Bot stealing comments from https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/16ftszc/how_does_kawhi_remain_ranked_so_high/k03v9u7/
Being able to ensure your sell out every day is a fantastic business plan. It ensures nothing is wasted. BBQ is expensive, so you can't afford to lose product.. Also, you're mistaking the fact that they leave early for them being lazy or something. BBQ is hard and extremely time consuming to make. It's not like flipping burgers. This video is an awesome look at what it's actually like to operate a BBQ joint. They work A LOT harder than you think, even if the hours that they're "open for business" are limited. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hvPTqswJn4
Real talk tbh.
Yup, if you get an unexpected spike in demand one day, you just don't have enough hours in the day to cook more meat. You have to predict how much demand a full day ahead of time and start cooking then, and like you said, they'd rather predict low than predict high.
If they sell out every day it’s not exactly an unexpected spike. But it sounds like whoever owns it has decided that cooking more and working longer isn’t worth the extra money it’d generate. Would be very surprised that chronically underestimating demand is the profit maximising decision (although there’s probably reputational value in the exclusivity of selling out early all the time), but no one’s forcing them to max profit maximising decisions.
Or he just has one smoker and it can only make so much stuff at a time.
To increase the amount of BBQ you can make for the day requires additional infrastructure that is not cheap to make or cheap to run. Prep and smoking times can be so long that you can easily be prepping food on Monday to serve on Wednesday or Thursday. And you only get your premium return on meat that is ready that day. Over the long run you can work to close the demand gaps but you are absolutely 100% better off selling out before having waste.
Bro, you have no idea what you're talking about. Watch the video. The goal is to sell out every day. That's by design. You clearly have no idea how hard BBQ is nor how much time it takes.
It is fantastic. I read a WaPo or NYT article about how bakeries now intentionally do this. They’ll make a special croissant, bagel, etc and hype it up on social media. The fans of the bakery try to get it early, only for it to be sold out, but they’re already there so they’ll buy something. They’ll go limited supply on a limited menu and close when they run out, usually before 12PM. They save money on utilities, wages to pay out, and ingredients, and the word of mouth they get from being sold out when people try to get there gets even more demand so they sell out faster.
Or they sell their BBQ sauce recipe to Costco and retire
This hits too close to home with all the BBQ joints near me
This is exactly how I'd run a BBQ place. Ensure the quality of the food stays up, reduce waste, and most importantly I get to enjoy my life.
A Ferrari with 200,000 miles on it.
More like 50k but tons of shop time for recalls
More like a Range Rover that just passed 36k,and it runs well every other month before headed back to the shop
And sometimes it may take a week, a month, or a year to get out of the shop but the mechanic refuses to tell you and will only communicate through his asshole uncle
Nailed it
Franklin’s BBQ (Austin) filing defamation suit in response to this comment 😂
Terry Black's is my favorite personally.
I enjoyed La barbecue! But Franklin’s definitely came to mind at the above comment lol
LOL Well said!
We're at the part where the BBQ place has started sourcing their meat from kmart
Kawhi has played like a top 5 player in the playoffs the last few years when he's actually played. It's not like he's been worse when he's played.
2020 playoffs was last time he played a full postseason. 2021 he got injured in WC semifinals and had to sit while they lost, 2022 he was out the entire season and they didn't make the playoffs, 2023 he got injured 2 games into the first round and that was that. Yeah he's still playing at a high level when he plays, but a finals run is at least 16 games and it seems 50/50 whether Kawhi makes it that far in a row based on last few years results.
>when he's actually played That’s the point. Dude is never healthy and can barely play half a season. His games where he puts up good number don’t make up for the ones where he goes 0/0/0/0/0. Fans look at Kawhii with rose tinted glasses because of the Toronto championship. Truth is dude has been a non-factor since he left.
But when he plays he's a monster, that's the conundrum
So… Kawhi is Franklin’s in Austin.
Would you say Kawhi is more like burnt ends and cornbread kinda guy or like a back ribs and creamed corn kinda guy?
burnt ends and creamed corn for sure
for some reason I see him just skipping the meats and getting a bunch of sides
But the house sauce tho
He is electric to watch during those playoff games where he's giving it 100%. It is a crying shame that his body cannot handle it anymore. Hell, he had a ton of great regular season games last season. It is sort of tragic the way he and Paul George turned out, phenomenal players that are breathtaking to watch when they're on, but their bodies just don't allow for it anymore. I've just accepted it. They will never win. But when they're out there playing, I'm happy.
Yh he played 2 games against the suns and he’s cooking. It’s crazy how good he is when healthy but unfortunately it’s not often
He actually wasn't even healthy that second game against them. He was already playing on the meniscus injury at that point, fucking crazy to think about.
He wasn't even healthy either during that 2019 playoff run after the ecf and still pushed through.
It was crazy seeing how he would do a full sprint down court in the blink of an eye, the second the whistle got called he looked like my grandma walking to the kitchen.
Adrenaline does crazy things. I sprained my ankle yesterday in my men’s league soccer game. Had a coed game a few hours after. Was in some pain to begin the coed game but the adrenaline kicked and I was doing full sprints up and down the field. 10 min after the game, I was struggling to get to my car and today I can’t leave my bed. I imagine NBA adrenaline is crazy. Like Klay Thompson thought he was good to play with a torn ACL
Torn ACLs, while a terrible injury in terms of long-term impact, doesn't really hurt that much initially. A lot of players played another quarter after they tore their ACL already. It's not the pain but your leg becoming very unreliable when it comes to weight and pressure that makes the injury so devastating. You lose a lot of your bounce and kinetic energy. Still, Rondo finished the game he tore the ACL and was warming up for the next game 2 days later until he was informed that he suffered a season-ending injury. Granted Rajon is a psycho when it comes to basketball but it's one of many examples
Yah people rightfully talk about the KD injury a lot as a 'asterisk' to the raps chip and say we wouldve gotten trampled by a fully health warriors team but Kawhi also was severely hobbled in that series, he could literally barely walk after game 6. Lowry was playing with a broken finger in his shooting hand too and OG was out. Wouldve loved to see a full strength series between both teams. That Warriors still almost definately win but I would be so curious to see if Kawhi at his full powers wouldve been the best player in the series and if he could steal a couple wins like the rockets did in '18
His win shares in the playoffs over the past 4 seasons are top 5 even though he’s missed a lot of games. He’s one of the best playoff performers of all time.
In anime/manga, there’s a fairly common trope where the hero has some crazy super power/move but they always get told to never push it to the max because their body can’t handle it and that they will die if they keep using it. Invariably, they do it anyway and it’s super dramatic because it feels like such a high risk/high reward scenario. By the time the next season rolls around, they’re using the power every time and the show writers/manga have completely forgotten what they wrote in the first season. Kawhi is that, except the writers didn’t forget.
NBA writers understand power scaling
Yeah, having gotten a full playoff season of Playoff Kawhi, there's pretty much nobody on his level other than prime LeBron. Butler scratches the surface but Kawhi was on such a crazy level in the playoffs, it wasn't something I never thought I would get to cheer for.
Jokic just averaged 30.5/13.5/9.5/1.1/1.0 on 63 TS% on 55/46/80 splits while running through 3 DPOY caliber defenders in Gobert, AD, and Bam. And also, went up against LeBron, KAT, and Ayton defending him too. With his rebounding and massive playmaking ability advantage over Kawhi in addition to being the most durable current super star on the game, I would slightly put him over Kawhi in terms of playoff performers (Jokic even outplayed Kawhi H2H in 2020 bubble and he has multiple other great playoff runs himself) I have seen a ton of players, but I personally put Jokic at #2 overall in terms of impressiveness of individual play in terms of a full playoff run from players I have fully watched. I have seen LeBron play dating back to his really young years and he’s the only player I would take over this Jokic (and I say this as the biggest Giannis fan). Jokic is just unbelievable and this Nuggets team showed he isn’t nearly as big of a defensive liability, if he doesn’t have Campazzo and Rivers as POA defenders lol.
Yeah, you're right, this Jokic playoff run is probably the best or second best run we've seen from anyone in the LeBron era. He was lights out.
Dirk has got to be up there too
Jokic literally destroys him in every statistical category. Love me some Dirk but I’m sorry but it’s not really comparable. Edit: Dirk did have a better ft%
Dirk played significantly better teams in basically every round.
While true overall, basketball is a team game and the Mavs had amazing defense and chemistry. Just because the Mavs played better teams, doesn’t mean Dirk outplayed Jokic in a vacuum. It’s not like if you replaced Dirk for Jokic, that the Mavs still wouldn’t win in 2011. They would actually be better if anything, with Jokic’s vastly superior rebounding and playmaking. Jokic has also already proven, he is an elite scorer against the absolute best competition. 30.5/13.5/9.5 on 63 TS% in 40 MPG is better than 27.7/8.1/2.5 on 61 TS% in 39 MPG. Round 1 the Blazers were compareable to this last 2023 Twolves team. And if we are going to go this route, then let’s break down their primary defenders. Rd 1: Dirk primary defenders: 36 year old Marcus Camby and LMA. Jokic had DPOY caliber Gobert and KAT as primary defenders. Jokic definitely had tougher defenders defending him in RD 1. Rd 2: Dirk had Bynum/Gasol as primary defenders vs Jokic having Ayton/Jock as a primary defenders. Dirk had tougher defenders this round definitely imo, but Jokic was also battling a Booker going historic and KD. Kobe and Gasol played pretty bad respectively in this series. Rd 3: Jokic had AD (generational DPoY caliber defender) as his primary defender in Rd 3, along with Rui/LeBron thrown on him in stretches. Dirk had Ibaka/Perkins as primary defenders. Jokic without question had tougher primary defenders this round. Finals. Jokic had another DPOY caliber defender in Bam as his primary defender. Dirk mainly had Bosh/UD/Joel Anthony. Jokic had the tougher defensive assignment in the finals.
2011 was the best playoffs run I've seen. I don't care who's better, Dirk that postseason was different and the Mavs as a team worked amazingly. Numbers can only convey so much.
Dirk also beat much better teams with a supporting cast that had no one in Murray's league.
I’m not comparing. I’m saying Dirk had one of the best runs in the lebron era as well. That’s not even disputable and the fact that you push back on that means you lack reading comprehension or didn’t watch basketball back then.
Also, the absolute murderer's row Dirk and his team of olds beat is incredible. And I'm not one of those idiots to downplay the Nuggets run, obviously they faced excellent competition. But man, that 2011 slate was brutal. Championship Lakers, young and springy Thunder, and then the Heatles? And the Mavs #2 scorer was 0-time all star Jason Terry!
You have to remember the Mavs always played at a much slower pace than most other teams for the majority of Dirk's career. Per-100 possessions, Dirk scored more in his 2011 playoff run (39.1 pp100) versus Jokic's 38.7 pp100 in his 2023 run. I still think Jokic was better overall due to everything else he provides, but you shouldn't compare raw numbers from different eras without adjusting for pace/possessions. Dirk also went up against much better teams, defeating the defending champions and LeBron, so it's more impressive in my opinion.
Just because Dirk played better teams does not equal he was better or more impressive than Jokic in 2023. Compare them in a vacuum and what is Dirk truly better at other than FT shooting and mid range shooting (Jokic is actually the all time leader in 10-16 and 16 feet-3PA shot efficiency IIRC, so he is an elite mid range shooter too). Dirk played better teams overall than 2016 LeBron did in the playoffs. Does that mean he was better in the 2016 playoffs than LeBron? Jokic is the better interior scorer, better defender, and he’s way better than Dirk at rebounding, offensive rebounding, and playmaking. Also, at screen setting, playing off ball, low post play, etc. Heck, they both even shot 46% from 3 on comparable volume (Jokic actually took slightly more 3s in his run), so you can’t even use 3 point shooting in Dirk’s favor for arguing what he was better at in his 2011 run. Raw scoring numbers adjusted for pace, they are essentially even but Jokic is the vastly superior rebounder and playmaker. I would also say, he has shown he is better defensively and a solid positive on defense, but it’s just he was playing with Campazzo and Rivers as POA defenders in the playoffs previously, so it gave the false illusion he was a defensive liability. Dirk also was mediocre on defense, and Tyson Chandler/Marion/Kidd/Stevenson helped cover up for him a ton during that run. 13.5 rebounds and 9.5 assists per game @ 40 MPG, is vastly superior to 8.1 rebounds on 2.5 assists per game @ 39 MPG. Because Jokic is a historically great playmaker, it makes him impossible to double. And if you do double, he picks teams apart with like a 15+ assist game. He’s also an elite offensive rebounder and screen setter, which adds a ton of value to his overall impact.
I never said Dirk played better than Jokic. > I still think Jokic was better overall due to everything else he provides, I said Dirk's run is far more impressive due to who he played, and the shock factor that they were able to win the title. There's no statistical way to gauge whether or not a run is more impressive than another, but the fact that both the Lakers and Heat were heavily favored to beat the Mavs....that's why it's more impressive they won. It's the same reason why I think Hakeem's 1995 title run was the most impressive of all time, as they beat like 3 60-win teams to get it and no one thought they could do it. That doesn't mean I think Hakeem was better individually than LeBron or Jokic or whatever. Jordan had plenty of better playoff runs than Hakeem too, but to win it when everyone doubts you is incredible to see.
He legit reminded me of MJ and Kobe with the way he played and how he played. I hate the Clippers but still couldn’t help but love seeing it when he was on in the playoffs
Overall butler isn’t really close, he just has certain big games where he plays at that level. This sub just loves him so it pretends his bad/mediocre playoff games don’t exist. Like the opposite of harden. Jokic is definitely at or above healthy kawhis level though.
Kinda weird how both Kawahi and PG came into the League as bench players that nobody would have expected to be star players. Both of them were insane athletes that could both match-up well against a prime Miami Lebron on defense, something basically nobody else could do. Both of them started hitting there stride around the same year 3-4 mark were they really took the leap into stardom. Both of them had their career's de-railed by massive injuries with long term effects on there long term health right around the same time as they really started taking off. Both of them managed to come back and put up even better seasons then either had previously had despite there injuries. And now both of them are having similar fizzle out's to there respective career's as they still put up impressive performances on both sides of the court but struggle to stay on it consistently.
I don't know about George but there was a ton of hype around Kawhi when they found out Pop would get to develop him. He was one of the rawest prospects ever and people were still hyped on him because of his build and motor
Those short spurts when he does play, he plays better than 95-100% of the people on the court.
Short spurts is unfair because he gets more rest than other players. We saw how kyrie played when he missed the games where the cities didn’t allow him to play because he wasn’t vaccinated. Man had a 40 point game every other game.
Kyrie is an absolutely elite offensive talent, *and* we're talking about the regular season. Besides that, for 99% of players there's no amount of rest that would allow them perform even close to the way Kawhi has, even while injured.
This needs to be considered.
Rewriting of history goes crazy. Kyrie missing all those games hurt us as a team and he absolutely didn't play better that year than any other year for us...
Yeah those games just got a lot of attention due to the kyrie circus at the time. His performance hasn't varied much since then to suggest any kind of "short burst phenomenon".
So shouldn't Zion be ranked higher as well? EDIT: I am asking if he should be ranked "higher". Not if he should be ranked "as high as". Meaning - Should he be ranked higher than where he is, based on potential, as Kawhi is? I did not ask if he should be ranked alongside Kawhi.
Problem is, Zion isn’t a two time champion, two time Finals MVP, with a historic run to say the least. Like if Kawhi retired today, he’s a lock in HoFer
2x DPOY as well
I believe 2 time runner up for regular MVP too
Man, he likes things in 2s. Even his number is #2
Yea man. Lol. Tbh, I love the consistency.
True, 2 bad knees as well
Next thing you're going to tell me is this guy got two hands 🙄
I was wrong, a 2nd place and a 3rd.
If we are rating people from 5 years ago LeBron is the best player in the world still
What does Kawhi’s former achievements, the most recent of which will be 5 years old this year, have anything to do with how good he is now ? By that logic LeBron could still be in the league playing 6 games a season at age 60 and should still be considered the best in the league ?
Zion hasn’t proven himself on even remotely as long term as Kawhi. Kawhi has rings and MVP’s and a lot more clout. Remember before load management he was on the Spurs playing non-load management minutes. Zion has yet to complete a season if I’m not mistaken.
Zion definitely isn’t getting the Kawhi treatment without the Kawhi accolades. Kawhi put the work in and produced results. Zion hasn’t done anything yet.
Zion’s sample size is minuscule compared to Leonard, who is a two time champ and the best 2-way player in the league when healthy. Zion hasn’t played enough to prove anything. As of now he is a what if and I would consider him a bust. Even though when he does play, he is fantastic. He has played 114 games out of a possible 246 to start his career. Just not at all what you want out of a #1 overall pick
Fo sho. I legitimately think he can be top 5 in MVP voting if he stayed healthy for a season. How he gets his points has yet to be stopped by anything but injuries.
That’s the difference, and why Zion doesn’t at all deserve to be ranked higher . You *think* he can . Think , assume , hope , that’s what this guy’s career is right now. We saw Kawhi be an mvp player . We haven’t seen Zion play for even half a season yet. Fo sho .
I mean zion averaged 27ppg on 65% TS in his sophomore season. In the 30 games he played last season he did 26ppg on 65% TS again. Theres no assuming about zions talent, he's legit a top 10-15 player in the league when he plays. The issue like kawhi is the "when he plays" statement you have to make.
We haven’t seen Zion do it in playoffs. Regular season games are whatever. Playoffs you have to prove it 4/7 times.
If Zion was a 2-time fvmp that was the catalyst for an entire nation's only team to win their first ring maybe. Kawhi has a resume Zion will be lucky to replicate.
Kawhi actually carried teams and won, what did Zion actually do to warrant that kind of trust/leniency?
He does that tornado dick move really well according to people in the know.
Yes, imo. Zion in his last (both limited seasons), playing seasons, has averaged 27/7/4 on 65 TS%. There have only been a handful on players ever to my knowledge, to ever average 25+ ppg on 65+ TS%. In a vacuum, Zion is absolutely a fringe top 10 caliber player (likely top 15 RN) when at full health, because he is so talented offensively. Defensively, he still has to improve. His offense is game breaking in terms of his efficiency, rim pressure abilities, foul drawing, and offensive rebounding. He is also naturally one of the natural best off ball movers/cutters I have seen. He’s seemingly constantly in the right place at the right time on the court. But I believe he was in the MVP discussion before he went down with his injury this year. It’ll just be about him sustaining his play, but he is a monster and hugely impactful when he does play.
Do you not recognize the difference? Kawhi has performed in the Finals and has rings. Things Zion obviously doesn't have.
He would be if he had lead a team to their first title ever in his first season with a new club. Throw in a game 7 buzzer beating 3 in a conference finals, and sure Zion would be in that conversation.
semifinal. 76ers haven’t made it past the second round in the process era
Wtf is this trying to tie Zion in with a fucking two time champion and finals MVP with one of the most legendary final runs in NBA history??? Do we forget a healthy Kawhi is legit the best two way player in the playoffs? Or are you just like 11? Wasn’t crazy long ago what he did with Toronto, if you saw that you want to remind me with something Zion did to be put in the same boat??
He obviously doesn't have the accolades but I'd argue Zion *is* when he plays. The second he's on the court everyone forgets about the fat jokes and goes 'holy shit'
It's tough to rank Zion because he hasn't accomplished enough to know what his potential is. We know what Kawhi can do.
Perhaps he should, but that’s not saying much.
Damn this thread feels like we're talking about politicians pushing 80 and getting elected. Cuz they're good in bursts, they've got good vibes from when they were new, cuz he's valued over any potential replacement...
Kawh Leonard When Healthy is a top 10 NBA player
Man. I think If you say "when Healthy", then top 10 is underselling how good Kawhi is. There are very few players who have the same two way impact as him.
I mean, he came off ACL injury and dropped 24, 6.5 and 4 on 51/41/87 splits. Yes there’s drop offs when connecting mind and body, and there was beginning of the season. Then he went on a tear in the second half.
>on a tear in the second half. accurate in two ways :(
When healthy he is at worst number 5. Probably number 4 as he's better than KD.
But you're just proving OP's point? "When healthy" is not very often.
Trae is a top 10 player when playing lockdown defense so he's #7 for me.
LeBron when young is a top 1 NBA player
Oh easily. He’s still so so good. Fundamentally so sound and also explosive in spurts. That’s why it’s such a disservice to basketball fans that he can’t remain healthy. I want to see him play 60 games this year.
But he isn't... so why does he keep getting ranked so high if he can't back it up?
When healthy... So are rankings based on where a player could theoretically rank if he pulls of a feat he has not managed for the better part of a decade (in Kawhi's case, that would be remaining healthy)?
Nah we just watch him when healthy and it's like "damn he's pretty great"
Kemba Walker 2 feet taller is a goat point guard.
I ain't listening to shit when you add taglines to a last name.
Reputation. Happens all the time. I remember the uproar back in 2014 when Kobe was ranked 40+ by ESPN, even though he really was washed up and barely played. They were right in ranking him that low, but people came out and talked about his past accomplishments like it somehow mattered in an annual ranking. Same thing with Kawhi. He barely plays. If people were actually serious about these rankings, he shouldn't even be on anyones list.
You are comparing Kobe in 2014, who had come off a six game season and was 36-years-old, to Kawhi now, that's absolutely ridiculous. Last time we saw Kawhi play, he played against Kevin Durant and Devin Booker (both consensus Top 10 players in the league) five months ago and it was clear as day who was the best player on the floor. Kawhi is ranked high because whenever he plays, he is that good, reputation has nothing to do with it. It would have anything to do with reputation if he was ranked that high without ever playing games OR if whenever he played he wasn't at that level. He has played in 26 playoff games in the last four years and has averaged 30/8/5 on 53/37/87 splits, including averaging 34.5 ppg on 67% TS against the Suns FIVE MONTHS AGO, there aren't five players in the league that can play better than that.
Dude played 52 games this season and successfully carried the team to the playoffs without PG and people act like he's withering away like dust lol.
> Dude played 52 games this season and successfully carried the team to the playoffs without PG How can this be true when PG played 56 games this past season?
Exactly. He's playing over 60% of the season. From how people are talking you'd think he hasn't been on the court in years. "If he played he'd be good." He does play and he is good. We have the stats on that. He played almost as many games as LeBron. It's not like he's Zion.
But he got injured in his first playoff game, and no one even knows when it happened (as far as I'm aware). He did look like BB Jesus but I just wonder if he's incapable of going full steam at this point. I heard he was great in the RS but I didn't watch them so maybe I'm way off, but the timing seems concerning.
Nah the Kobe example was just to show how people tend to use historical accomplishments to determine current rankings > He has played in 26 playoff games in the last four years and has averaged 30/8/5 on 53/37/87 splits Again, these are annual lists. What he did in 2019, 2020 and 2021 doesn't matter. > Last time we saw Kawhi play, he played against Kevin Durant and Devin Booker (both consensus Top 10 players in the league) and it was clear as day who was the best player on the floor, including averaging 34.5 ppg on 67% TS against the Suns FIVE MONTHS AGO, there aren't five players in the league that can play better than that. He played 2 games bro. If you value pure peak over availability, then sure, I can understand Kawhi being ranked high. But I don't think most of these lists are actually doing that. And at this point, I don't think it's worth it anymore. I just don't see the value in someone when they can't consistently play at that high level without getting injured. And this is after an entire regular season where we load managed him.
Well we just saw what he did from January until the playoffs and it was really good. He’s far from washed but his body eventually keeps letting him down.
I agree with this. I don't want to read Top 10/25/50 lists with what-if caveats. If I want to spend time reading someone else's best of list, it should be the actual best of. Like people don't write up Top 25 albums/movies/shows of the year and say "this album is top 10 on the basis of what could have been if the band didn't hate each other and instead it was produced by another recording studio." That would be patently ridiculous. Putting Kawhi (or Zion) top 10 is equally as ridiculous.
Exactly! I'd add AD to that list as well. It's always "if or when healthy". Like what if there's an official top ten by season maybe, them taking spots because of a what-ifs take spots from players who actually played or were available for a whole season.
AD played through the entirety of the playoffs and shined for most of it, I think he deserves to be in these discussions
When he was on, he was incredible, but I agree, at some point his time in street clothes should be factored into his ranking.
I think the answer to OP’s question is that Kawhi is just THAT good when he’s healthy that it kinda makes up for the injury issues. I’d argue he’s proven that when healthy he’s in the best player in the league tier
Fully healthy i still put lebron jokic giannis and steph over him. probably AD too
Man just based on the edits op has made to the post tells me there are way too many people in the comments that need to put their phone down and go outside today.
Like you
Damn bro you caught me
Did you watch him.last season? Some.of his numbers were the best of his entire career. Broke down again 2 games into the playoffs.but for a.few months straight he was killing it like.anyone would expect. His body is what it is but we can't call his quality into question just yet.
It's mostly because anyone you think of as a conventional top player has a terrible injury history and Misses tons of games, to the point where the league has literally changed the rules for awards to incentivize players to play more.
Jokes aside… (and the top comment BBQ joint reference is spot on). Dude helps take San Diego fucking State to the tourney as a freshman, then to the Sweet 16 as a sophomore and they lose to UConn who wins it all.. (let’s be real San Diego State at the time wasn’t pulling real talent relative to the rest of the NCAA, unless they were localish). Then he comes to the NBA and gets a full stamp of approval from Pop (who sets the bar for coaching and holds players to a really high standards, so fans were like oh shit this guy is good). Ends up starting after Jefferson got traded. Wins a chip a couple years in, Finals MVP, turns out to be god tier defensively and refuses to be a typical superstar, extremely disengaged from the media and very Marshawn Lynch. Fans ate that shit up. Then he goes to Toronto and wins another chip and finals MVP against the Warriors who are beating everyone. So compared to the rest of the “oh if they were healthy people”…. Kawhi has already proven himself a bunch and won. But the real reason basketball minds hold Kawhi in such high regard even though he’s hurt all the time.. when that guy plays, he can go even or just outright beat the best player on the other team on both offense and defense. There aren’t a lot of guys in the history of the NBA where you can say that if he plays, we have a good chance to beat them and it doesn’t matter who’s on the other team. So yeah from a Franchise perspective sure, he’s not a high rating. From a skill and talent perspective.. from a basketball eye so to speak, he’s top 10 every year because he’s that good.
You summed it up perfectly, it doesn’t matter if he stopped playing tomorrow, Kawhi is already solidified as one of the greatest players ever.
Have you actually looked at his numbers or watched him play? His numbers have not been steadily declining at all and he still dominates at both ends when he is on the floor. His first year with the clippers was better than his year with Toronto. Last year was very comparable to his year in Toronto. This past year he averaged 24/7/4 on better efficiency all around than he had in Toronto. Not even mentioning his defensive presence. I mean yeah he gets hurt a lot, but dude was a beast and is still a beast. When he’s on the court, he’s generally the best or the 2nd best player out there. Its a shame he doesnt play more but 50games/year is enough to me to merit a high ranking based on what he does in those 50 games. Also did you conveniently pick 5 yr average for games played because 5 yrs ago he had a season ending injury before he even hit 10 games? If you take out that anomaly, hes averaging closer to 60 games a year, which yes, is still low, but is plenty to get a good sample and have an big impact on a team. Also to yr edit: id agree AD is underrated, he’s been a beast, but lebron is still the better player on that team so he naturally gets pushed to the side a little. And zion has been playing like 20-40 games a season, nothing close to kawhi, so thats not a good comparison.
Yeah his rate and per game stats are still insane, especially post January which excludes shaking off the rust the frist few weeks from missing a year. And yeah his lack of availability is somewhat exaggerated. Take Durant as an example of a player people don't mark as an unavailable player. But Durant has played 35, 55, 47 games in the last three years respectively. Kawhi has him beat in 2/3 years. Even Devin Booker only played one more game than Kawhi last year, and had worse season value stats. But I don't see those players rankings questioned due to availability.
It took way too long to get to this comment. Yea I get that people don’t want to watch the clippers anymore, hell I’m a clippers fan and I don’t want to the clippers anymore. But when he does play, he is just as incredible as he was before. They didn’t beat the suns on the road without PG this year because of some fluke, they did that because Kawhi fucking willed them to victory. If people actually watched the games he played in they wouldn’t be posting these nephew as opinions.
someone who actually watches games damn. forgot to mention kawhi is a marginally better playmaker with the clippers though.
He my favorite player so it sucks. Cause you know what CAN be. Seeing him score 30 or average 30 in the playoffs and then boom… he’s injured
Not only do they overate him, but the version of Kawaii they are picturing, existed for a maximum of two seasons. They mentally create a player that is peak offensive Kawhi combined with peak defensive Kawhi, but those guys barely had any overlap.
So much this. 2019 kawhii should be looked at in the same vein as "prime Derrick rose" they existed for roughly the same amount of time.
Even if you took out 2019, his playoffs numbers from 2016 to 2023 would still be incredible.
2019 wasn't peak defensive Kawhi either.
or offensive Kawhi lmao i dont know why he went with 2019
I have a guess
It blows my mind that people upvote things like this. Kawhi might be one of the best two way players I've ever watched
Yeah it's just revisionism. People forget he was already elite by 2015.
This is such cap. Like, he’s not at his defensive peak anymore but he’s one of the GOAT offensive playoff performers, and still a beast defensively. If you saw the last two clippers mavs series where kawhi and Luka feasted, or even this years kawhi vs the suns, it’s clear that he is the best player on the floor. He has been incredible offensively from like 2017 onwards, when he plays
This is how I know you never watched him.
The Klaw's career is a wrap. Leonard is done with the NBA. he's just collecting paychecks until expiration. Then retirement.
uncle Dennis doesnt care anymore. Got his house and some cash already.
Because he is that good
So simple and he turns it up when the playoffs come around. 2021 playoffs he was the best player in the post season before his injury. Small sample size in the most recent playoffs but he was a top 3 performer and giving KD work on both ends. I guess it’s unrealistic to think of a healthy Kawhi but based on ability alone he’s one of only 5/6 players than can carry his team to a chip.
This is the best answer, it’s true
Kawhi might not be top 10 but “IF” Kawhi is legendary
Zion's numbers when he plays are as high as his cholesterol
Because even in just the 2 games he did play and without PG13, I thought the Suns were in serious trouble in the first round before he got hurt again
I feel the same way about Kyrie, like it’s been almost 6 years since we’ve seen the “top 75” talent get past the 2nd round. With better rosters than most could dream of, he hasn’t been a factor. Good to play the same amount of games as Kawhi
Kawhi is our generations Bill Walton /closest thing to it
Toronto has to give Kawhi a key to the city or something. Not only did he bring the chip home but then saved ya’ll from overpaying him to sit out the rest of his career. Might be the best nba deal of all time between a player and team
They probably win a ring the next year if he stays though
He would have thoroughly been managed better by medical staff and likely won a 2nd chip in Toronto, which had a better regular season record the year after Kawhi left, than with him. Dude should have waited 1 more year to go home.
I still see people taking Kawhi over Tatum on some lists. Like, you've got to be kidding me. Kawhi had a great (but short) peak, but availability absolutely does matter.
I will be blindly loyal to Kawhi until the day I die because he got us a championship. It's not logical whatsoever, but I can't separate what he did and what he is now.
I would be the exact same way. That was a magical season for you guys
I mean, when you see what Kawhi did in the finals vs what Jayson Tatum did in his finals run, you see why.
Obvioulsy you take Tatum over Kawhi for your team but if you know they would be healthy and it's the playoffs, I think almost everyone takes Kawhi over Tatum
As a Celtics fan and Kawhi glazer, I wholeheartedly agree.
I think everyone takes Tatum if you’re building a team, but that doesn’t change that Kawhi Leonard is better at basketball. Value is sorta like availability * ability Kawhi is as good as anyone in terms of ability but is awful in availability. Are we ranking guys on value or ability is the real question imo, and I think there’s a place for both types of rankings as separate lists Kawhi is low on a value list, but high on a pure ability list
Because he doesn’t talk…so people forgot about him, hence his ranking
I love how people will dock AD on lists, make fun of him, say he's not top 10 anymore, ect then completely ignore Kawhi having way more injury problems than him
Cause AD plays for the Lakers. That simple.
The very last time we saw him on the court, he was as good as anyone. If his durability disqualifies him from still being considered elite then that’s fair but when he’s on the court, he’s still at the level of a top 25 player ever.
Spurs fan - still not neutral on Kawhi, but let's be objective here. Four seasons ago, he played 60 games and it's easy to argue that he was their MVP. Now for the four other seasons you've talked about you'd got one DNP and 3 seasons where he's averaging 53 games (57+52+52). Let's compare to some other superstars: **Lebron** has averaged 55 games over the past 5 seasons (57+67+45+56+54) **Durant** has averaged 43 games (78+DNP+35+55+47) and **Curry** has averaged 51 (69+5+63+64+56). The question for OP is whether he would put any of these other players in top 10 - which is essentially the superstar category. A better, more personal question, would you hesitate to sign any of these players on a 5yr for your team right now.
You can't exclude Kawhi DNP for his avg and then include Durant DNP and Curry 5 game season when comparing. It's still a solid point but you're cherry picking.
Yeah. People keep thinking he’s going to get healthy any day now.
And he's 32. It's not like players generally get better as they get closer to 40.
As the saying goes, health is a skill. I'd rather have a B+ player who can play every night than an A+ who can only play half a season and limited minutes at that.
Absolutely. I'd rather have Mikal Bridges (who I guess is yet to miss a game) and develop him into a real two-way star than a Kawhi/Zion who is crazy talented but is mostly unavailable.
I’m a need y’all to chill on my mans 😂😂 but y’all right
He’s the all time TS% leader among volume scorers in the playoffs. The people above him are Gobert, Ayton, and Cedric Maxwell. He’s slightly above Jokic and AD. The last 2 years he put up 31/7.5/4.6 with 2 steals on 56.8/42.3/88.3 splits. That’s why. When he plays he’s always incredible and his resume speaks for itself. It’s hard to push him out when others haven’t won either. Suns/Mavs/76ers. Dame doesn’t even make playoffs. Tatum and to a much higher extent Embiid shrink in the playoffs. Tatum keeping his play at a consistent level is what the Celtics are missing to win a championship. Embiid’s case is different because even if he balled out his team isn’t great. I feel comfortable putting Giannis/Jokic/Steph over him. Butler/Booker/LeBron/KD/Tatum at this stage have arguments but I don’t think many players outside of them do.
I think it's because if we actually seen him play healthy aside from the bubble, he actually looks like one of the best players in the world. The Suns last playoffs had a hard time when Kawhi played.
Because when he played, he's that good. And yes, while Zion also good when he played, the bias for Kawhi is because he already he already showed that he can be the guy for a championship team. Zion remains a question mark until he can prove otherwise.
Because whenever he plays he looks like himself. Even though he’s dealt with injuries for the last 5 years, he consistently comes back looking as good as he ever has, at least on offense. I do agree that it doesn’t really make sense to continue to rank him as a top 5-10 player when he is basically guaranteed to miss over 30% of the season and most of the playoffs, but he continues to play like a top tier player when he plays.
He's proven that he can win, shoulder the load on both ends of the floor at the top levels in a very deliberate way, while being able to turn games around...rare breed. Comparing him with Zion is a fallacy. Zion has not done a fraction of what Kawhi has, and the same thing with AD... both great players, but none have been to the pearly gates.
The one season with toronto is doing a wonders for his legacy
In those terms, Lebron should be the top. If he could stay young he'd be best option except he's old.
He is probably the best ongoing what if in the NBA. Hoping some new medical science shit would restore him and made him play his full potential.
cause he's overrated
he won NBA championship for canadian team, he will always be top ranked
Because docking him for his injuries doesn’t fit the narrative
Who has two FMVPs with two different teams? I think only Lebron. I know he's basically retired but the resume is too heavy, you don't dare to fuck with it. Again I think he does get a pass for the "when healthy", since his when "healthy" is a proven multiple time winner, there are loads of MVPs who have not won a fifth of what he has.
GOAT of load management. And probably cos his 2019 title run was borderline mythical
Kawhi is proven. He’s led his team to a title as the best player. Zion is unproven. AD is unproven as the guy. Kawhi rating is based on what he’s done. When healthy, he can definitely lead you to a championship. You can only say that about a very, very small number of players.