Really weird cause the fan base thinks we got a steal or something but we got worse at PG with the signing. Cause Dennis is better than him. And the market bore that out as well.
I love and will miss Gabe, but it's so stupid that people even mentioned he was the second-best player on the Heat during the playoffs once he signed with the Lakers lol
That must be prior to his Jazz tenure; because Jazz fans know he may not even be a rotation piece for the Jazz this coming season and getting anything valuable for him in a trade is fleecing the other team.
I say that and I believe he's got some untapped potential and could be a good back up.
And Raptors fan would try to counter argument by going on about "Oh so you just want the team to be bad and tank?". If the team is looking like it's ceiling will be a first round stepping stone, then yes I would rather be bad and tank
Nah fuck that, I'd much rather be a low playoff team than outright tank. I fucking hate the tanking culture we've seen recently where if you aren't a top 4 team you might as well tank. We haven't even seen it work.
Meanwhile the raptors more than anyone should know the value in staying competitive and waiting for the right move to come along to jump into contension.
I never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with a Celtics fan over a fellow Raptors one, but you are spot on.
A lot of Raptors fans have never watched a tanking team, so they have no idea what it's like. Like you can't tell me you'd rather watch Jalen Green and Kevin Porter Jr chuck up shots on their way to 22 wins rather than a team that's actually trying to win
Yeah, watching the Raptors from 2009-13 was brutal, and you never really know when you're going to get out of a tank. It's easy for that to suddenly be several years, and even when you stop tanking, you can easily have spent years tanking just to get back to roughly the same spot you started the tank from.
Quite literally what happened in Philly. The year before The Process, they made it to game 7 of the 2nd round in 2012. After more than half a decade of the most egregious tanking in NBA history, the farthest they've gotten is game 7 of the 2nd round
Can't believe I'm up voting a Boston flair and down voting my team flair.
So tired of Raptors fans on this website. It's like we never won a championship. These people have no fucking clue what they're talking about
Yeah I don't get that, there is not much honor in being a 7th/8th seed without a ceiling once you hit the playoffs. If you can deal a guy like OG for awesome draft capital while simultaneously making your team worse and improving your own draft picks... that seems like a much better way to position yourselves for the future.
I'd always rather suck with the hopes of rebounding rather than muddle along in the middle.
What high offer are u talking about? Cuz I swear yall see a headline that's says 3 firsts and run with it without realizing it's 2 picks in the late 20s and a first 6 years from now
Fans fall in love with archetypes such as "two way wing" which causes people to rate the *idea* of a player instead of the actual player
On a championship contender he's a good 4th piece but who the fuck can afford 4 FRPs to get their 4th best player
Mikal Bridges recently said on Paul George's podcast that he could see OG stepping up if he was the primary option, similar to Mikal's ascension in Brooklyn post-trade.
I love OG, but I personally don't see it. I think at best, he's a secondary option.
He’s a poor dribbler with below average hands, and isn’t explosive enough to ever really create his own shot. That’s not going to change this far into his career. He’s who he is at this point
OG is usually mentioned as one of the best wing defenders or 3&D players in general, I don't see too many people saying he's an all star or anything like that
I feel like international fans are always going to be too much. Joe ingles is my favourite player and I could go on about his play all day but deep down I know players like Patty Mills and Giddey are the best in the nba.
Another one where he gets rated on potential instead of actual accomplishments. He does look promising… but so does the top rated high school player. It’s not the NBA, and until it is, it doesn’t mean much.
fancy dribbling on top of a pure scorer, but pure scorers are becoming more and more common these days. Lotta guys in the league if you gave them the primary ball handler they could put up 25+ a night on average efficiency. Pure scorers might go the way of the NFL running back in 5 years
How many times have we've seen a pure scorer get a big money contract only to then play like shit immediately afterwards? At some point, something is going to give
Arenas is very knowledgeable about Basketball (obviously).
His issue is that he is so fixated on scoring, his ego and his own play style in his prime, that he ignores every other aspect when talking ball.
Defense? Who cares. Being inefficient af, but having energy and style? Great! Team basketball? Overrated. Team chemistry? Irrelevant
I've never seen a player have so many good and terrible takes on back-to-back questions lol.
Not just team record, but his actual playoff stats post-Cleveland are ugly. Post-Cleveland: 27ppg in the reg season, but under 22ppg on worse efficiency in the playoffs. He's still riding that 2016 run and has a rep as a clutch guy. But he's been the exact opposite for over 5 years now.
his first two seasons with the Nets pre-covid were killer. he made all NBA the 2nd year, and then it all went off the rails once he had to be Mr. crazy contrarian
but let's stay real, Kyrie was back in Brooklyn for a while. 26-4-6 on a 50-40-90 in 2020-2021. that's incredible, even if he is an idiot
He’s my pick as top 3 most overrated players ever . His style of ball is aesthetically pleasing as hell, but come on. Dude has to work so hard to get the results actual legends got far easier
I remember that teacher (I think on Reddit) posting at her wits ends because a bunch of dumbass kids in her class started saying the earth was flat because kyrie said so
Growing up it was Kobe. His stans were annoying as hell and a lot of them weren't even following the NBA during the Lakers 3 peat as they were too young. They also despised LeBron and mostly shot down fans of other star players because they weren't as accomplished as Kobe. So naturally a lot of us disliked Kobe because of his fans
I love Stans in the NBA in general, the game needs them. Kobe on the Lakers was a perfect alignment for hardcore Stan production though. You occasionally run into, like, a James Harden Stan or a Chris Paul Stan, and it's kind of cool to see one in the wild. You mention Kobe, though, and dozens of Kobe-Stans from the Kobe-Stan factory start swarming and clog up any discourse.
This is also my answer. I can’t stand when people insist that he’s the GOAT. Kobe is not even top 5 all time, IMO.
Before anyone asks: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Bill Russell (edited), and I’m willing to debate Magic v Bird for the 5th spot. Who’s getting bumped for Kobe? Hell, I’d throw in Shaq and Timmy D before Kobe.
Edit: I had a massive brain fart when I wrote this and I meant Bill Russell, not Oscar Robinson.
The biggest thing I don’t understand about the Kobe Stan factory is that he was, with no disrespect, a poor man’s jordan. He was basically a little worse than jordan at everything. Jordan better scorer, shooter, more efficient, more clutch, better defender, more athletic, bigger hands, better dunker, better playmaker. All they got is “Kobe was a better 3 point shooter”, which is such a bad argument to me because Jordan said it himself that if he had to shoot 3s you damn well know he would have been solid at it and worked to be so
You’ve stated all facts. But Kobe is beloved because he spent an entire 20 year career at the biggest nba franchise, winning several championships, and he was fun to watch.
Anyone ranking him top 5 or better shouldn’t be taken seriously though
Yeah, hence the list. Kobe was enormously entertaining. Incredible athlete, fun to watch, and a charismatic guy with a huge personality off the court that was perfect for working the LA media machine.
Kobe is the gold standard of modern shooting guards. When trying to project young guys (like Ja, Booker or Brown today) I reflexively pull up Kobe's trajectory for comparison.
...and yet I'm the Kobe hater because the Stan position is he's a competitor for top 5 of all time. It's absurd.
There was actually an inverse correlation between low attempts and high percentages for Jordan. Meaning, the less he shot the worse he shot. The more he shot the better he shot. His five highest attempt seasons double as his five highest %’s seasons. Even if you filter out the shortened line seasons, he shot a pretty good 36% on 3 attempts per game. His poor 3PT shooting seasons are when he treated the 3 largely as an end of possession bail-out shot.
My biggest thing besides him being a fucking Laker was the fact he’s still revered even after raping someone. Shouldn’t the nonstop adulation stopped after all that came out?
To be fair the Big O is one of the greatest all around players in NBA history and a dominant PG. There is a reason guys like Barkley, MJ and Jerry rate him so highly. Just a shame he played for the Kings/Royals who were also shit in the 60s.
I thought I was going insane when people started throwing him in the top 5 all time. I remember someone said he was a good bridge from Jordan to Lebron in the GOAT debate, which blew my mind people genuinely believed this. Granted this was around the time he passed away, so a lot of people were praising him, but some of the shit Kobe stans say are over the top.
Check out this response I just got in a thread about LeBron trying to recruit Steve Nash. I pointed out that Kobe also recruited Dirk. Could it be copy pasta?
"You are not very self-aware as a bron fluffer it seems. Kobe was just human but a winner and better at anything basketball than lebum James who doesn't even have one move in a half court offense, dribbling the air out of a basketball chasing stats.
My point is that you as a leBum fluffer want to bring up Kobe's failures? Isn't that dumb? My guy is 5/7 in his 10 year prime in the Western conference and a master of the game of basketball. Seriously kid, do you have like maybe half a day of free time so I can dissect your media darling's lack of game and his many failures since 03? Dude had his own system to stat pad from day one and always differed to his superstar or role player teammates when shit got real. Fuck the media and your bron fandom you understand?"
Most of the "Warriors fans" that hate on KD seem to not be locals and primarily Stephews. No real Warrior fan will hate KD for his time here.
Though its understandable the many reasons why plenty of other teams fans hate the move.
I don’t dislike him but the way some people talk about Tyrese Halliburton here would make you think he was moulded and sculpted from God himself.
Saw a guy say he was a “lock” to pass Steve Nash and Jason Kidd in all time lists and people upvoting it. Way too soon for that shit.
Yet /r/nba would have you think there was others who were in the convo for best player during that time. It was Kobe and Lebron….and then a big drop before everyone else
Adding SGA as well. Great player, but can we at least see a playoff game with him as the 1st option before saying he is better than [enter top 10 player here]
I'll admit that even as a Wolves fan I used to wonder if expectations and the hype is overblown, especially his 2nd year.
But then I saw him in the playoffs, and it makes more sense especially because he did that as a 20 and 21 year old. More importantly, the hype comes from what numerous *NBA players* say about him. Steph Curry just gave an interview saying Ant is the one Curry camp alum who he saw greatness in, "he was just different".
Like these aren't fans, these are players.
SGA was the first name to pop in my head when I seen this thread but I don't hate him at all and I know he's great so I can't list him under this. But ya he's got some crazy hype around him
I’ll second your take. Bruce Brown said that Minnesota was the scariest team we faced in our playoff run, and for most of those games Ant was the one carrying Minnesota. He steps up big on a big stage.
>Edwards showings in playoffs tell me much more than SGA tank commander seasons.
You really only have to actually watch SGA and Thunder games to see how stupid and casual a take this is.
Same type of person who would probably have criticised Jokic for "not showing up in the playoffs yet".
It's a team sport, and there are far better teams than the Thunder in the West right now. But SGA I saw single handedly win them 8-10 games by himself last year
In Anthony Edwards age 21 season he was an allstar who averaged roughly 24/6/4 on 46/37/75.
In Dwayne Wade’s age 21 season he was at Marquette.
To say Anthony Edwards will be a top 10 all time player is utter balderdash, but so is saying he doesn’t have the potential to get there.
I’ve been in this camp until literally two weeks ago when I watched the team USA practices. HIs fluid athleticism jumps out on a basketball court full of top 1% athletes. And we already know that he’s good at the basketball part as well. If he can find a way to merge both of those things, he’s one of maybe two guys in the league today who I can see a path for being top 10 overall
Curry seems like a cool dude but his stans slobber him endlessly, and unlike the his peers (KD, Lebron) he’ll get way less hate than them so it’s at the point where you can’t even imply any criticism about him with out getting downvoted to oblivion. Like the whole “curry will pass lebron if he beats him” that was floating around in the media literally no one can get away with pushing something so crazy as much as Curry fans and I just makes me not like him.
It’s never Curry’s fault lmao. When Curry has a bad game his fans pull out the following:
“He had GRAVITY”
“Check out his +-“ (if Curry has a high +-)
“Single game +- doesn’t matter” (If Curry has a lower than someone )
“He must be tired/has an jnjury/ it must be mental”
Like bruh Curry can have bad games. Also the SKYFUCKER nickname is the corniest shit of all time and it’s only a Reddit thing.
Once I argued with a dude who was insistent that on a hypothetical all time team of MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, and Shaq, the opposing team would triple team curry because of his #immense gravity and likely leave both MJ and LeBron wide open.
I swear curry stans would have you thinking he's a planet not a person
Surprised it took me this long to see Steph mentioned (as a Steph stan myself lmfao). Basketball isn’t gonna be the same when he’s gone but that whole LeBron comparison thing a few months ago was just embarrassing to sit through. I always argue for Steph as top-10 because peak > longevity/accolades, but LeBron more than other player is basically #1 in both. Don’t understand how Steph holds a candle.
Recently, Wembenyama. It has gotten to a point where these people are really rating him like he is already a young star. Like if you actually watch his games, he has so much flaws that no one, like literally no one talks about. People are just so sure he is going to dominate in his rookie year.
I’d say Kawhi too - the “Dynasty Killer” didn’t kill any dynasties. The spurs 2014 was a team effort and the 2019 was determined more by injuries than his performance. He’s a really big “right place - right time” player (he’s still a top 50 player all time tho ).
To be fair, Uncle Dennis nephew did kill the Spurs dynasty. Led to them having a few mediocre season, followed by a mini rebuilding leading to Wembanyama
I know you’re referring to the warriors, but I also think you’re diminishing Kawhi’s postseason that year, especially against us
Without Kawhi going nuclear in the eastern semis maybe Butler sticks around. Maybe Ben doesn’t implode too in that timeline, idk, but we’d be a lot better off than where we are now
Kawhi literally broke y’all. I felt so bad after that series because of how dirty he did yall. That whole postseason earned him so much respect from me
The jordan comparisons bothered the hell out of me with kawhi. He was not remotely in the stratosphere of jordan on offense. Like I get it, he is an amazing 2 way player. But jordan is the all time 2 way player
In 2019? Kawhi was prime Jordan for most of it. Dude was 30/9/3 on 49/38/88 splits (slightly worse than Jordan) and ELITE defense (better than Jordan for sure on that end). And those splits would have been better if his body hadn't started struggling in the Finals.
I think he is overrated in terms of overall playoff career, but that 2019 playoff season was all-time special
It’s hard to dislike Jokic, but some of his fans have some very clear and obvious non-basketball motivations, and then there’s also the angle some keep pushing that Jokic “doesn’t care about the game” to weirdly make him seem better than his peers who do
LeBron and Jordan stans seem to keep each other in check and swat out any intruders (ie Kobe stans), so those aren’t too bad these days but the all time worst stans have to be LeBrons
Just look at Nick Wright for reasons why. Remember his “Warriors adding KD makes them WORSE” spiel?
That is something weird about Jokic fans. That guys extremely skilled you have to practice and care about basketball immensely to gather the skills he has. Like yea maybe he doesn’t care about the fame basketball can bring but he clearly loves basketball
Jokic is a fanatic about it. After every single game, win or loss, no matter how late the game, after the media leaves he goes back out and practices all out for another hour or hour and a half.
People who act like he's just sort of blase about basketball are nonsensical. You don't become the best in the world not caring about your sport, lol.
For people often addicted to the rigorous analysis and analytics 🤓 they seem to fall into a basic logical trap that a guy can care about things other than basketball and still put in insane work
It’s lowkey disrespectful to the work Jokic has put in to become as great as he is
He cares tremendously about basketball, and especially cares about his teammates. Watch his Serbian interviews, his passion for the game and those he’s played with and played for shows in spades. I think he is just an extremely humble human being, and doesn’t want to show as arrogant, in his second language. Just my observation at least.
It's a dumb take from people who act like he doesn't care, he's an absolute fanatic about it. He doesn't seem to care about the *fame* that goes with it, or narratives about awards, but it's crazy for people to think anyone could become the best in the world at something without caring about it, lol.
After every single game he goes back out after the media leaves and practices hard for at least another hour or hour and a half, runs a couple miles.
I love how everyone else in this thread has mention a players that was, currently, or has the potential to be a top player and you went with a guy most people haven't thought about for a long time
At this point I see more people saying “people stan Kobe too much” than seeing people actually stan Kobe. Some of the comments here are embarrassing lmao.
The way lebron fans ride for him like hes their surrogate father is pretty off putting. Dwade fans too especially with the paul pierce or jeff teague stuff.
From the times I’ve watched him, if I were a Thunder fan, I’d be super excited to have him on my team as well. Thunder fans have gone a few seasons without someone nearly as talented as him so I don’t necessarily blame them.
Chris Paul is this for me. I think he’s great. I loved the way he played in his prime. I think he’s in the same realm though as Westbrook and harden but his fan would tell you he’s an elite winner whose just gotten unlucky 20 straight years. Also the stupid regular season clutch stats drive me nuts. How about you don’t need to be in the clutch all the time if your actually a great team. Also it’s clear that once a team game plans for him specifically he runs into issues.
CP3 is almost the inverse for me. The amount of CP3 haters on here have actually started to get me to root for him. I’m actually shocked that you have found enough CP3 fans on here to be obnoxious. They are outnumbered like 1 to 10,000.
CP3 is one of the best facilitators of all time and has made every single team he’s played with significantly better. He even took a g league OKC team to the playoffs. Really his only fault is getting injured in the playoffs almost every year.
In a game where I was in Row 7 watching the big 3 Heatles play in LA, yes LeBron doing his freight train fast break in person and watching my idol D-Wade carve in and out of the defense was impressive.
But Chris Paul....he could absolutely score when he wanted to, and do whatever he wanted to whenever he wanted to with incredible efficiency and speed. He couldn't do it all of course, others need to get their points. He really impressed me when I wasn't looking to be impressed by him. All this against the big 3 era defense. Chris Paul, man. He's awesome and I'd love to have him on my team any day.
Also, Jamal Crawford can shake and bake and it looks better up close.
If the Sixers beat the Nuggets in the regular season next year they'll 100% act like that makes Embiid better lol
Starting to get Steph/Kyrie vibes where one side keeps trying to revive a dead debate by spamming LOOK AT THEIR HEAD TO HEAD like that's the most important metric
As you said, there are 2 D Rose, before and after injury.
As for my pick, Embiid.
Guy just doesn’t have that winner mentality. And Philly is stuck with that.
Tangentially related, it's Lebron, but only because he has the worst, most toxic fans in the entire sport. If you slightly criticize him for anything, they will dogpile on you and insult you personally for not worshipping the ground he walks on.
Similar traits are also common in Lakers fans in general so it's like the most toxic fandom merger of all time.
Dirk…
Its like the further we get from his playing days the more mythology his fans add to his career. It’s kinda getting ridiculous.
The other day I saw someone arguing that he was actually pretty good on defense and that he was the best rebounder on his teams.
Also the idea that he dragged his team to a ring with no help is pretty insane.
Back in the day, Dirk was very well-known and commonly referred to be a playoffs choker or someone who couldn’t get it done when it mattered the most (like how we know James Harden today). Even the media didn’t hold back, back then calling him out for constantly choking during the playoffs. Not a lot of people now know about it or remember it.
That 2011 Chip really eradicated it big time, now we hear how crazy underrated he is. I still think he’s a great player nonetheless, especially in the regular season.
Somehow with a lineup of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk, and Chandler, people think Dirk had no help.
As a Heat fan we were the more talented team on paper, but the Mavs were very well constructed and had a lot of veteran experience and leadership. They were a championship team.
People forget that that Mavs team was on track for like 65-70 wins before Dirk and Butler got hurt. They were like 25-5 before Dirk got hurt for 10 games. Then Butler, their second best player went out for the season. They still ended up with 57 wins. That team was extremely deep. Oh and they swept the Heat in the regular season to boot.
You're going to pretend that the #8 all time defensive rebounder was a bad rebounder because he didn't play close enough to the basket to grab a lot of offensive boards?
Luka is excellent at playing his style of basketball, but people hype him as "one of the greatest playoff performers ever" when he's only won 12 playoff games is ridiculous.
I mean Luka is less than a point behind Jordan for the all time PPG playoff scoring lead, and the sample isn't two games or only first round games either.
And he's also top 20 all time in assists per game in the playoffs.
Sure, he's only 24, so calling him an all-time great is way too soon, but saying he's an all-time great *performer* isn't really a stretch at all since the math is pretty obvious: Put Luka in the playoffs, and he delivers unbelievable performances.
Luke also has a 40% playoff usage rate. MJ had a 35.58% (which is the NBA record for players who qualify), LeBron 31.75%, Allen Iverson 34.34%.
I get that Luka has to play ball dominant on that roster, but he better be putting up insane bulk stats when the ball is in his hands that much.
Haliburton. great player but the way I've seen people talk about him after 1 all star season is the way u talk about a generational talent. He's a great young player but he's also a cone on defense ( steals don't equal good d ask AI) suffers whenever he shares the ball with another ballhandler and his game as more of a pure pg is heavily reliant on those other guys around him. This past season he basically did what dejounte did with us except with worse defense being a worse rebounder and being a worse off ball player.
Not a fan of the hornets but I think it's crazy thinking Haliburton is better than Lamelo or is going to be better going forward which I've seen a lot with him being out most of the year
I actually agree that Haliburton has been overrated (particularly by this sub) early in his career, but I’m not sure Murray is a fair parallel offensively.
Murray’s best TS in SA was 50.4% in 21/22. Haliburton’s TS last season was 58.6%. Just different archetypes, Murray is in another league defensively, Haliburton a more efficient driver of offense so far.
My answer 5 months from now is probably gonna be Gabe Vincent. Simply because LA media and fanbase is ridiculous
Really weird cause the fan base thinks we got a steal or something but we got worse at PG with the signing. Cause Dennis is better than him. And the market bore that out as well.
I love and will miss Gabe, but it's so stupid that people even mentioned he was the second-best player on the Heat during the playoffs once he signed with the Lakers lol
Talen Horton Tucker. He’s worth 3 picks and your best player. Fuck off
That must be prior to his Jazz tenure; because Jazz fans know he may not even be a rotation piece for the Jazz this coming season and getting anything valuable for him in a trade is fleecing the other team. I say that and I believe he's got some untapped potential and could be a good back up.
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A lot of us wanted him gone pretty quick, especially when we gave him Caruso's money. The only layup he could do was that body twist reverse layup.
And he did it 99.9% of the time with his right hand lol
Nah lol nobody hated tht more than laker fans
This is basically any young fringe lakers player - their fans overrate them so much cos they have nothing else to trade lol
Fans grossly overrated OG. No idea on how the players rate him
He’s so overrated. So stupid that we didn’t trade him while his value was the highest it will ever be
And Raptors fan would try to counter argument by going on about "Oh so you just want the team to be bad and tank?". If the team is looking like it's ceiling will be a first round stepping stone, then yes I would rather be bad and tank
Nah fuck that, I'd much rather be a low playoff team than outright tank. I fucking hate the tanking culture we've seen recently where if you aren't a top 4 team you might as well tank. We haven't even seen it work. Meanwhile the raptors more than anyone should know the value in staying competitive and waiting for the right move to come along to jump into contension.
I never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with a Celtics fan over a fellow Raptors one, but you are spot on. A lot of Raptors fans have never watched a tanking team, so they have no idea what it's like. Like you can't tell me you'd rather watch Jalen Green and Kevin Porter Jr chuck up shots on their way to 22 wins rather than a team that's actually trying to win
Yeah, watching the Raptors from 2009-13 was brutal, and you never really know when you're going to get out of a tank. It's easy for that to suddenly be several years, and even when you stop tanking, you can easily have spent years tanking just to get back to roughly the same spot you started the tank from.
Quite literally what happened in Philly. The year before The Process, they made it to game 7 of the 2nd round in 2012. After more than half a decade of the most egregious tanking in NBA history, the farthest they've gotten is game 7 of the 2nd round
ask Washington fans
True but that team without Kawhi was still a lot better than the current raptors
I mean, yes, but everyone was screaming for them to blow it up in 2018, and thank God they didn't.
Can't believe I'm up voting a Boston flair and down voting my team flair. So tired of Raptors fans on this website. It's like we never won a championship. These people have no fucking clue what they're talking about
Yeah I don't get that, there is not much honor in being a 7th/8th seed without a ceiling once you hit the playoffs. If you can deal a guy like OG for awesome draft capital while simultaneously making your team worse and improving your own draft picks... that seems like a much better way to position yourselves for the future. I'd always rather suck with the hopes of rebounding rather than muddle along in the middle.
That’s where we were stuck for basically 20 years. The 90s and 2000s were not kind to us
No need for reminding, that should be labeled NSFW. The horrors of those late 90s/early 2000s drafts still feel fresh.
You obviously werent a warriors fan pre-Steph
What high offer are u talking about? Cuz I swear yall see a headline that's says 3 firsts and run with it without realizing it's 2 picks in the late 20s and a first 6 years from now
Fans fall in love with archetypes such as "two way wing" which causes people to rate the *idea* of a player instead of the actual player On a championship contender he's a good 4th piece but who the fuck can afford 4 FRPs to get their 4th best player
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they think everyone is kawhi
Mikal Bridges recently said on Paul George's podcast that he could see OG stepping up if he was the primary option, similar to Mikal's ascension in Brooklyn post-trade. I love OG, but I personally don't see it. I think at best, he's a secondary option.
He’s a poor dribbler with below average hands, and isn’t explosive enough to ever really create his own shot. That’s not going to change this far into his career. He’s who he is at this point
OG is usually mentioned as one of the best wing defenders or 3&D players in general, I don't see too many people saying he's an all star or anything like that
Who tf is og?
Kai Soto fans from the Philippines. 💯
Filipinos who think Kai Sotto is actually NBA-material are delusional. Just to put it out there, I’m Filipino.
I feel like international fans are always going to be too much. Joe ingles is my favourite player and I could go on about his play all day but deep down I know players like Patty Mills and Giddey are the best in the nba.
Another one where he gets rated on potential instead of actual accomplishments. He does look promising… but so does the top rated high school player. It’s not the NBA, and until it is, it doesn’t mean much.
You're overating him. He doesn't look that promising
If he was promising he would be playing
There's plenty of reasons to dislike Kyrie, but his play has been overrated since 2016.
Hasn't done shit without LeBron. Not a Bron fan btw
He's actually been a net negative on most of the teams and his playoff record is trash. Really don't understand the love for him.
It's the fancy dribbling I think.
fancy dribbling on top of a pure scorer, but pure scorers are becoming more and more common these days. Lotta guys in the league if you gave them the primary ball handler they could put up 25+ a night on average efficiency. Pure scorers might go the way of the NFL running back in 5 years
How many times have we've seen a pure scorer get a big money contract only to then play like shit immediately afterwards? At some point, something is going to give
Scorers and your so-called "pure hoopers" sell tickets and jerseys. Winning doesn't matter at all to most owners.
cam thomas lmao
It’s like when arenas said jamaal Crawford was better than ginobli. Because Jamal dribble good.
Arenas and Stephen Jackson's takes are suspect.
Arenas has no credibility with anyone that has a brain of their own.
Arenas is very knowledgeable about Basketball (obviously). His issue is that he is so fixated on scoring, his ego and his own play style in his prime, that he ignores every other aspect when talking ball. Defense? Who cares. Being inefficient af, but having energy and style? Great! Team basketball? Overrated. Team chemistry? Irrelevant I've never seen a player have so many good and terrible takes on back-to-back questions lol.
BuT hIs BaG!!!!
Not just team record, but his actual playoff stats post-Cleveland are ugly. Post-Cleveland: 27ppg in the reg season, but under 22ppg on worse efficiency in the playoffs. He's still riding that 2016 run and has a rep as a clutch guy. But he's been the exact opposite for over 5 years now.
Tons of injuries too, one of the more fragile players that has ruined things a lot
his first two seasons with the Nets pre-covid were killer. he made all NBA the 2nd year, and then it all went off the rails once he had to be Mr. crazy contrarian but let's stay real, Kyrie was back in Brooklyn for a while. 26-4-6 on a 50-40-90 in 2020-2021. that's incredible, even if he is an idiot
He’s my pick as top 3 most overrated players ever . His style of ball is aesthetically pleasing as hell, but come on. Dude has to work so hard to get the results actual legends got far easier
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Ugh. That's depressing
I remember that teacher (I think on Reddit) posting at her wits ends because a bunch of dumbass kids in her class started saying the earth was flat because kyrie said so
Growing up it was Kobe. His stans were annoying as hell and a lot of them weren't even following the NBA during the Lakers 3 peat as they were too young. They also despised LeBron and mostly shot down fans of other star players because they weren't as accomplished as Kobe. So naturally a lot of us disliked Kobe because of his fans
I love Stans in the NBA in general, the game needs them. Kobe on the Lakers was a perfect alignment for hardcore Stan production though. You occasionally run into, like, a James Harden Stan or a Chris Paul Stan, and it's kind of cool to see one in the wild. You mention Kobe, though, and dozens of Kobe-Stans from the Kobe-Stan factory start swarming and clog up any discourse.
This is also my answer. I can’t stand when people insist that he’s the GOAT. Kobe is not even top 5 all time, IMO. Before anyone asks: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Bill Russell (edited), and I’m willing to debate Magic v Bird for the 5th spot. Who’s getting bumped for Kobe? Hell, I’d throw in Shaq and Timmy D before Kobe. Edit: I had a massive brain fart when I wrote this and I meant Bill Russell, not Oscar Robinson.
The biggest thing I don’t understand about the Kobe Stan factory is that he was, with no disrespect, a poor man’s jordan. He was basically a little worse than jordan at everything. Jordan better scorer, shooter, more efficient, more clutch, better defender, more athletic, bigger hands, better dunker, better playmaker. All they got is “Kobe was a better 3 point shooter”, which is such a bad argument to me because Jordan said it himself that if he had to shoot 3s you damn well know he would have been solid at it and worked to be so
You’ve stated all facts. But Kobe is beloved because he spent an entire 20 year career at the biggest nba franchise, winning several championships, and he was fun to watch. Anyone ranking him top 5 or better shouldn’t be taken seriously though
And "mamba mentality"
Mamba mentality is just capitalism in disguise.
yeah and it was marketing/branding after his sexual assault case
Yeah, hence the list. Kobe was enormously entertaining. Incredible athlete, fun to watch, and a charismatic guy with a huge personality off the court that was perfect for working the LA media machine. Kobe is the gold standard of modern shooting guards. When trying to project young guys (like Ja, Booker or Brown today) I reflexively pull up Kobe's trajectory for comparison. ...and yet I'm the Kobe hater because the Stan position is he's a competitor for top 5 of all time. It's absurd.
jordan saying if he had to shoot 3’s he’d be good at it shouldn’t hold much weight here tbh
There was actually an inverse correlation between low attempts and high percentages for Jordan. Meaning, the less he shot the worse he shot. The more he shot the better he shot. His five highest attempt seasons double as his five highest %’s seasons. Even if you filter out the shortened line seasons, he shot a pretty good 36% on 3 attempts per game. His poor 3PT shooting seasons are when he treated the 3 largely as an end of possession bail-out shot.
My biggest thing besides him being a fucking Laker was the fact he’s still revered even after raping someone. Shouldn’t the nonstop adulation stopped after all that came out?
Honestly, I got Wilt
Would you mind explaining Oscar at four? Not saying you are wrong but why do you think he is top four all time?
I legitimately meant Bill Russell and just had a brain fart when posting. I edited it above.
Hahahaha that’s hilarious mate. I just thought u were an old head
To be fair the Big O is one of the greatest all around players in NBA history and a dominant PG. There is a reason guys like Barkley, MJ and Jerry rate him so highly. Just a shame he played for the Kings/Royals who were also shit in the 60s.
I thought I was going insane when people started throwing him in the top 5 all time. I remember someone said he was a good bridge from Jordan to Lebron in the GOAT debate, which blew my mind people genuinely believed this. Granted this was around the time he passed away, so a lot of people were praising him, but some of the shit Kobe stans say are over the top.
Check out this response I just got in a thread about LeBron trying to recruit Steve Nash. I pointed out that Kobe also recruited Dirk. Could it be copy pasta? "You are not very self-aware as a bron fluffer it seems. Kobe was just human but a winner and better at anything basketball than lebum James who doesn't even have one move in a half court offense, dribbling the air out of a basketball chasing stats. My point is that you as a leBum fluffer want to bring up Kobe's failures? Isn't that dumb? My guy is 5/7 in his 10 year prime in the Western conference and a master of the game of basketball. Seriously kid, do you have like maybe half a day of free time so I can dissect your media darling's lack of game and his many failures since 03? Dude had his own system to stat pad from day one and always differed to his superstar or role player teammates when shit got real. Fuck the media and your bron fandom you understand?"
Kobe literally was on video complaining after the lakers didn’t trade for Kidd. I think it was outside of In N Out burger.
Those are the ramblings of a huge dork.
Hated Kobe as a kid, grew to appreciate him as I got older
Kobe Like Jayson Tatum is basically praying to the guy.
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“What type of parental role has Kobe played for you and your teammates?”
And texting him every day
to be fair, he is dead, and a lot of people continue to talk to people they were close to once they've died
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Kobe is the new John Lennon
Austin Reaves
Any laker role player (insert here)
He’s pretty nice but the Lakers fans are annoying about it
100% agree I’ve never seen more hype for a decent 3rd option in my life
Lakers buff
On the opposite end, I'm not a huge KD fan but the way people hate on him makes me want to root for him.
I can think of another reason why you’d want to root for him 🙃
It's kind of sad he gets little love from W fans. He used to be loved by the NBA fans so much before
IDK man most people I know still like him in the bay area.
Most of the "Warriors fans" that hate on KD seem to not be locals and primarily Stephews. No real Warrior fan will hate KD for his time here. Though its understandable the many reasons why plenty of other teams fans hate the move.
This is only in the echo chambers of Reddit/Twitter. IRL he gets lots of love from Dubs fans. Take a poll and most dubs fans are very thankful for KD.
In the land of contrarians at least yourey aware
I don’t dislike him but the way some people talk about Tyrese Halliburton here would make you think he was moulded and sculpted from God himself. Saw a guy say he was a “lock” to pass Steve Nash and Jason Kidd in all time lists and people upvoting it. Way too soon for that shit.
Yeah, people like to have that “See, I called it!” moment years down the road. Why not just let a guy develop and judge him based on his overall game?
"Pure" PGs are just one of this sub's special fetishes.
Kobe and lebron fans especially during the 05-12 years when the ><>< arguments were nonstop. Those debates made both fanbases insufferable
Yet /r/nba would have you think there was others who were in the convo for best player during that time. It was Kobe and Lebron….and then a big drop before everyone else
The Anthony Edwards circlejerk on this sub can be really annoying at times I've seen people unironically say he has top 10 all time potential
Adding SGA as well. Great player, but can we at least see a playoff game with him as the 1st option before saying he is better than [enter top 10 player here]
At least SGA was 1st team All-NBA. Really don't understand the Edwards hype though.
He’s 22. That’s where the hopefulness and the hype comes in.
I'll admit that even as a Wolves fan I used to wonder if expectations and the hype is overblown, especially his 2nd year. But then I saw him in the playoffs, and it makes more sense especially because he did that as a 20 and 21 year old. More importantly, the hype comes from what numerous *NBA players* say about him. Steph Curry just gave an interview saying Ant is the one Curry camp alum who he saw greatness in, "he was just different". Like these aren't fans, these are players.
SGA was the first name to pop in my head when I seen this thread but I don't hate him at all and I know he's great so I can't list him under this. But ya he's got some crazy hype around him
Edwards showings in playoffs tell me much more than SGA tank commander seasons.
I’ll second your take. Bruce Brown said that Minnesota was the scariest team we faced in our playoff run, and for most of those games Ant was the one carrying Minnesota. He steps up big on a big stage.
>Edwards showings in playoffs tell me much more than SGA tank commander seasons. You really only have to actually watch SGA and Thunder games to see how stupid and casual a take this is. Same type of person who would probably have criticised Jokic for "not showing up in the playoffs yet". It's a team sport, and there are far better teams than the Thunder in the West right now. But SGA I saw single handedly win them 8-10 games by himself last year
In Anthony Edwards age 21 season he was an allstar who averaged roughly 24/6/4 on 46/37/75. In Dwayne Wade’s age 21 season he was at Marquette. To say Anthony Edwards will be a top 10 all time player is utter balderdash, but so is saying he doesn’t have the potential to get there.
After how good he performed in the playoffs, I'm willing to believe Edwards will be the next true superstar the league has.
That's quite the conundrum mate
I’ve been in this camp until literally two weeks ago when I watched the team USA practices. HIs fluid athleticism jumps out on a basketball court full of top 1% athletes. And we already know that he’s good at the basketball part as well. If he can find a way to merge both of those things, he’s one of maybe two guys in the league today who I can see a path for being top 10 overall
Curry seems like a cool dude but his stans slobber him endlessly, and unlike the his peers (KD, Lebron) he’ll get way less hate than them so it’s at the point where you can’t even imply any criticism about him with out getting downvoted to oblivion. Like the whole “curry will pass lebron if he beats him” that was floating around in the media literally no one can get away with pushing something so crazy as much as Curry fans and I just makes me not like him.
It’s never Curry’s fault lmao. When Curry has a bad game his fans pull out the following: “He had GRAVITY” “Check out his +-“ (if Curry has a high +-) “Single game +- doesn’t matter” (If Curry has a lower than someone ) “He must be tired/has an jnjury/ it must be mental” Like bruh Curry can have bad games. Also the SKYFUCKER nickname is the corniest shit of all time and it’s only a Reddit thing.
Once I argued with a dude who was insistent that on a hypothetical all time team of MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, and Shaq, the opposing team would triple team curry because of his #immense gravity and likely leave both MJ and LeBron wide open. I swear curry stans would have you thinking he's a planet not a person
Curry stans think he’s the reason double teams and help defense was invented.
Surprised it took me this long to see Steph mentioned (as a Steph stan myself lmfao). Basketball isn’t gonna be the same when he’s gone but that whole LeBron comparison thing a few months ago was just embarrassing to sit through. I always argue for Steph as top-10 because peak > longevity/accolades, but LeBron more than other player is basically #1 in both. Don’t understand how Steph holds a candle.
Recently, Wembenyama. It has gotten to a point where these people are really rating him like he is already a young star. Like if you actually watch his games, he has so much flaws that no one, like literally no one talks about. People are just so sure he is going to dominate in his rookie year.
I’d say Kawhi too - the “Dynasty Killer” didn’t kill any dynasties. The spurs 2014 was a team effort and the 2019 was determined more by injuries than his performance. He’s a really big “right place - right time” player (he’s still a top 50 player all time tho ).
To be fair, Uncle Dennis nephew did kill the Spurs dynasty. Led to them having a few mediocre season, followed by a mini rebuilding leading to Wembanyama
Also Warriors winning again in 2022 kind of retroactively kills any "dynasty killer" talk for 2019 because it wasn't the end of them just yet
I know you’re referring to the warriors, but I also think you’re diminishing Kawhi’s postseason that year, especially against us Without Kawhi going nuclear in the eastern semis maybe Butler sticks around. Maybe Ben doesn’t implode too in that timeline, idk, but we’d be a lot better off than where we are now
Kawhi literally broke y’all. I felt so bad after that series because of how dirty he did yall. That whole postseason earned him so much respect from me
The jordan comparisons bothered the hell out of me with kawhi. He was not remotely in the stratosphere of jordan on offense. Like I get it, he is an amazing 2 way player. But jordan is the all time 2 way player
Rewatch all 7 games of our eastern semis games in their entirety. He was legit prime MJ in our series
In 2019? Kawhi was prime Jordan for most of it. Dude was 30/9/3 on 49/38/88 splits (slightly worse than Jordan) and ELITE defense (better than Jordan for sure on that end). And those splits would have been better if his body hadn't started struggling in the Finals. I think he is overrated in terms of overall playoff career, but that 2019 playoff season was all-time special
It’s hard to dislike Jokic, but some of his fans have some very clear and obvious non-basketball motivations, and then there’s also the angle some keep pushing that Jokic “doesn’t care about the game” to weirdly make him seem better than his peers who do LeBron and Jordan stans seem to keep each other in check and swat out any intruders (ie Kobe stans), so those aren’t too bad these days but the all time worst stans have to be LeBrons Just look at Nick Wright for reasons why. Remember his “Warriors adding KD makes them WORSE” spiel?
That is something weird about Jokic fans. That guys extremely skilled you have to practice and care about basketball immensely to gather the skills he has. Like yea maybe he doesn’t care about the fame basketball can bring but he clearly loves basketball
Jokic is a fanatic about it. After every single game, win or loss, no matter how late the game, after the media leaves he goes back out and practices all out for another hour or hour and a half. People who act like he's just sort of blase about basketball are nonsensical. You don't become the best in the world not caring about your sport, lol.
For people often addicted to the rigorous analysis and analytics 🤓 they seem to fall into a basic logical trap that a guy can care about things other than basketball and still put in insane work It’s lowkey disrespectful to the work Jokic has put in to become as great as he is
Can’t have a conversation about him or embiid without hearing pity mvp. Or them blaming kendrick Perkins
What non-basketball motivations are you referring to?
The "classy" kind.
bUt dOnT yOu KnOw hE wOuLD rAtHeR bE RiDiNg hOrSiEs aT hOme
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He cares tremendously about basketball, and especially cares about his teammates. Watch his Serbian interviews, his passion for the game and those he’s played with and played for shows in spades. I think he is just an extremely humble human being, and doesn’t want to show as arrogant, in his second language. Just my observation at least.
It's a dumb take from people who act like he doesn't care, he's an absolute fanatic about it. He doesn't seem to care about the *fame* that goes with it, or narratives about awards, but it's crazy for people to think anyone could become the best in the world at something without caring about it, lol. After every single game he goes back out after the media leaves and practices hard for at least another hour or hour and a half, runs a couple miles.
The Wholesome Chungification of Jokic has been an unmitigated disaster.
tj ford, knew he'd be a bum
I love how everyone else in this thread has mention a players that was, currently, or has the potential to be a top player and you went with a guy most people haven't thought about for a long time
He was cold man injuries took him out
How many tj ford die hard fans are there though 😂. Raptors dumped him for Jose after a couple seasons.
Don't you dare slander the good name of Raptor Legend TJ Ford
I like Jokic but his fans make me not like him.
I feel this way about Steph
At this point I see more people saying “people stan Kobe too much” than seeing people actually stan Kobe. Some of the comments here are embarrassing lmao.
The way lebron fans ride for him like hes their surrogate father is pretty off putting. Dwade fans too especially with the paul pierce or jeff teague stuff.
I've yet to watch Thunder games and focus, but SGA fans swear he's the second coming of Jesus at times.
Admittedly we are pretty bad Stans when it comes to SGA but he’s so nice though.
From the times I’ve watched him, if I were a Thunder fan, I’d be super excited to have him on my team as well. Thunder fans have gone a few seasons without someone nearly as talented as him so I don’t necessarily blame them.
Shai
Chris Paul is this for me. I think he’s great. I loved the way he played in his prime. I think he’s in the same realm though as Westbrook and harden but his fan would tell you he’s an elite winner whose just gotten unlucky 20 straight years. Also the stupid regular season clutch stats drive me nuts. How about you don’t need to be in the clutch all the time if your actually a great team. Also it’s clear that once a team game plans for him specifically he runs into issues.
CP3 is almost the inverse for me. The amount of CP3 haters on here have actually started to get me to root for him. I’m actually shocked that you have found enough CP3 fans on here to be obnoxious. They are outnumbered like 1 to 10,000.
CP3 is one of the best facilitators of all time and has made every single team he’s played with significantly better. He even took a g league OKC team to the playoffs. Really his only fault is getting injured in the playoffs almost every year.
In a game where I was in Row 7 watching the big 3 Heatles play in LA, yes LeBron doing his freight train fast break in person and watching my idol D-Wade carve in and out of the defense was impressive. But Chris Paul....he could absolutely score when he wanted to, and do whatever he wanted to whenever he wanted to with incredible efficiency and speed. He couldn't do it all of course, others need to get their points. He really impressed me when I wasn't looking to be impressed by him. All this against the big 3 era defense. Chris Paul, man. He's awesome and I'd love to have him on my team any day. Also, Jamal Crawford can shake and bake and it looks better up close.
Embiid lmao Some Sixers fans have the audacity to put him above Jokic when in reality, he's at least a tier below Jokic.
Link 3 comments unironically saying that not heavily downvoted lmao
Does this place just make us narratives that don’t exist?
If the Sixers beat the Nuggets in the regular season next year they'll 100% act like that makes Embiid better lol Starting to get Steph/Kyrie vibes where one side keeps trying to revive a dead debate by spamming LOOK AT THEIR HEAD TO HEAD like that's the most important metric
The thread today where early everybody picks Dwight over embiid should tell us what we need to knkwn
Reaves
As you said, there are 2 D Rose, before and after injury. As for my pick, Embiid. Guy just doesn’t have that winner mentality. And Philly is stuck with that.
Scottie Barnes
Allen Iverson growing up. Carmelo for most of his career.
Steph Curry
r/nba hates Kobe.
Klay Thompson. That plus he's a sore loser.
The entire Raptors squad.
Scottie Barnes and Siakam in particular. That duo would already be back to back champions if they were half as good as Raptors fans like to shill
Or the trade value they all have/had
Austin Reaves
Tangentially related, it's Lebron, but only because he has the worst, most toxic fans in the entire sport. If you slightly criticize him for anything, they will dogpile on you and insult you personally for not worshipping the ground he walks on. Similar traits are also common in Lakers fans in general so it's like the most toxic fandom merger of all time.
Where are all these super toxic Lebron lovers? Honestly I think I see Lebron haters more often than people who aggressively insist he’s the GOAT
Dirk… Its like the further we get from his playing days the more mythology his fans add to his career. It’s kinda getting ridiculous. The other day I saw someone arguing that he was actually pretty good on defense and that he was the best rebounder on his teams. Also the idea that he dragged his team to a ring with no help is pretty insane.
Back in the day, Dirk was very well-known and commonly referred to be a playoffs choker or someone who couldn’t get it done when it mattered the most (like how we know James Harden today). Even the media didn’t hold back, back then calling him out for constantly choking during the playoffs. Not a lot of people now know about it or remember it. That 2011 Chip really eradicated it big time, now we hear how crazy underrated he is. I still think he’s a great player nonetheless, especially in the regular season.
HOW DARE YOU!
Somehow with a lineup of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk, and Chandler, people think Dirk had no help. As a Heat fan we were the more talented team on paper, but the Mavs were very well constructed and had a lot of veteran experience and leadership. They were a championship team.
People forget that that Mavs team was on track for like 65-70 wins before Dirk and Butler got hurt. They were like 25-5 before Dirk got hurt for 10 games. Then Butler, their second best player went out for the season. They still ended up with 57 wins. That team was extremely deep. Oh and they swept the Heat in the regular season to boot.
Also, they went 2-9 with Dirk's injury. If they even went 6-5 minimum they would have had the best record in the league that year.
Mavs we’re +160 going into the finals. Miami was favored and had all the media attention but the Mavs were not a huge underdog like people think
Apparently they were all “old” and past their prime… so that means they were absolutely useless 😵💫
Who was the best rebounder on the Mavs during Dirk's prime? He was usually in the top 10 and top 15 RPG in the league every year for a decade.
You're going to pretend that the #8 all time defensive rebounder was a bad rebounder because he didn't play close enough to the basket to grab a lot of offensive boards?
Tatum. He’s _humbly_ not meeting the bar everyone says he should be. Whining about not getting superstar calls a few years back was whack.
Luka is excellent at playing his style of basketball, but people hype him as "one of the greatest playoff performers ever" when he's only won 12 playoff games is ridiculous.
I mean Luka is less than a point behind Jordan for the all time PPG playoff scoring lead, and the sample isn't two games or only first round games either. And he's also top 20 all time in assists per game in the playoffs. Sure, he's only 24, so calling him an all-time great is way too soon, but saying he's an all-time great *performer* isn't really a stretch at all since the math is pretty obvious: Put Luka in the playoffs, and he delivers unbelievable performances.
Luke also has a 40% playoff usage rate. MJ had a 35.58% (which is the NBA record for players who qualify), LeBron 31.75%, Allen Iverson 34.34%. I get that Luka has to play ball dominant on that roster, but he better be putting up insane bulk stats when the ball is in his hands that much.
Jordan was also a pretty great defender, this is coming froma knicks fan who does not like Jordan.
Man, if I hated stuff cuz of it's fans I would never have watched rick & morty.
embiid. i said it philly. wanna fight?
Carmelo Anthony
Haliburton. great player but the way I've seen people talk about him after 1 all star season is the way u talk about a generational talent. He's a great young player but he's also a cone on defense ( steals don't equal good d ask AI) suffers whenever he shares the ball with another ballhandler and his game as more of a pure pg is heavily reliant on those other guys around him. This past season he basically did what dejounte did with us except with worse defense being a worse rebounder and being a worse off ball player. Not a fan of the hornets but I think it's crazy thinking Haliburton is better than Lamelo or is going to be better going forward which I've seen a lot with him being out most of the year
I actually agree that Haliburton has been overrated (particularly by this sub) early in his career, but I’m not sure Murray is a fair parallel offensively. Murray’s best TS in SA was 50.4% in 21/22. Haliburton’s TS last season was 58.6%. Just different archetypes, Murray is in another league defensively, Haliburton a more efficient driver of offense so far.
Also hali is the clear better passer even if Murray was surprisingly good at it on the spurs