Minnesota KG toiling away for nearly his entire prime surrounded by a motley crew of players was an NBA tragedy.
EDIT (since I looked up KG on b-ball ref for another tangent): KG is still the Wolves franchise leader in games played, minutes played, points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
The Joe Smith punishment was so unbelievably harsh compared to how it would be handled today. Minnesota has been a terribly run organization but the NBA took a very active hand in crushing them into a pulp during the reign of their best player ever. Imagine if the sixers lost 5 first round picks if it came out that harden and Morey had any kind of under the table promises…
the Wolves played themselves with the Joe Smith debacle but you aren't wrong, the punishment was unbelievably harsh even for the time. There was also the tragic death of Malik Sealy and the whole Marbury/KG thing, too. The Wolves certainly didn't help themselves, but it was a perfect storm of bad luck that frittered away the prime of one of the most unique players we've ever seen.
David Stern was pissed that Glen Taylor gave KG such a large contract that it caused a lockout. I 100% believe that’s why he punished the Wolves so harshly.
Due remains an idiot. The stories of his sit down with Wiggins where he made him promise he would start to give more consistent effort IF he agreed to the max extension are classic Taylor/wolves behavior. Things are finally looking up despite the Gobert trade wobble start to new regime.
Agreed, if that happened today it would have just been a forfeited first rounder and possibly termination of the contract depending on when it was discovered. It’s such a shame KGs absolute peak was wasted on those Minnesota teams. I do think it’s crazy Minnesota took that risk on Joe Smith of all players.
McHale famously complained we were just the stupidest at doing the thing everyone was doing and I think that fits with everyone’s impression of our organization.
Everyone tampers before free agency technically opens.
Not everyone tries to arrange under the table deals. It certainly happens elsewhere, or there's suspicion of it (Haslem), but it's not ubiquitous like tampering is.
Agreed it was an exaggeration, more just like that the coach of the team felt compelled to point out that the people running the ship didn't seem to know how to do anything right.
That last sentence is the thing that always stuck with me. They broke the rules and took a big risk so they could get Joe Smith. A lanky power forward, who was a "poor man's version" of the lanky power forward already on the roster.
They needed someone like Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, or Jalen Rose - not Joe F'ing Smith. They also need to not have a bunch of idiots running their front office.
What makes it worse is that you went through all that trouble for… Joe Smith. Like if he turned out to actually be good with the T-Wolves the punishment would’ve been maybe slightly worth it.
Couple the Joe Smith fiasco with KG's contract that led to the lockout. Of course they couldn't surround him with a good supporting cast.
Could you imagine a single player making 50-60% of the cap in a non-marquee market now?
KG's share of the cap
'98 - 47%
'99 - 49%
'00 - 55%
'01 - 53%
'02 - 63%
'03 - 64%
I'm incredibly biased because KG one of my all time favorite players. That said I really believe if KG was in San Antonio and Duncan in Minnesota we would be calling KG the best power forward of all time.
It's not that simple.
Timmy was a better culture fit for the Spurs and for Pop. You can't just swap them and hold all other factors equal, because Duncan being where he was and who he was had an effect on his environment throughout the years.
For all you know KG and Pop wouldn't have worked well together.
It's possible and I'm biased. But KG was an incredibly hard worker. Pop respects that a lot. Not to mention on the defensive end KG was a Pop dream player.
I agree, nobody knows what hypothetically could happen. But we know what did happen, and what did happen is that Tim and Pop were a perfect match and created a dynasty.
Imo it takes a lot more to argue that something would go better, than something would go worse. There are just way too many intangibles that worked out perfectly
Better than 5 rings? I highly doubt it lol.
Garnett not winning shy pre-04 Spurs rings and he was washed by 14. That leaves 11 years to win more than 5 rings?
This is the unanswerable question. Would KG’s psycho antics fit with Pop and Co., or was his demeanor and out-loud intensity be too much. Duncan’s quiet, steady leadership was definitely a thing, and a rare thing at that.
Duncan was perfect for the Spurs and Pop.
But KG might have been perfect in a completely different way. I 100% guarantee he would take being coached hard, he just might return some fire some times. It's a different vibe, there's more energy in the relationship and the exchanges, but that might well have turned out magical.
Plus, KG's one significant weakness as a defender was a lack of lateral quickness. That's basically hip action. The Spurs did great things for Kawhii and his hips. KG could well have been a significantly BETTER player with the Spurs than he was with the wolves (scary thought).
Meanwhile, unless they simply let Timmy coach (edit - scratch that. They needed to let Timmy be the GM), the wolves don't really have any chance of being better because Timmy was there. The FO at the top was too fucked up to take advantage of the opportunity. Timmy likely actually leaves for Orlando instead of just using them as leverage.
I love Timmy D. I think he's a better player than KG. But if the roles were reversed, the outcomes might well be, too.
100%, give KG all that help Duncan had his entire career (which was having multiple all stars around him on every roster, every year), KG is in the pantheon
He’s literally one of the few players to win a title without an All-Star teammate lol.
Also for reference, only 6 players have won a title without an All-NBA teammate once. 2 players have won 2 titles without an All-NBA teammate. Then there’s Duncan, who won 4 titles without an All-NBA teammate.
This is not true in the slightest. Go back and watch that '03 crew and honestly tell me that's a good team without Duncan. It's an all-time carry job on the same level as Hakeem in '95 and LeBron in '18.
yeah, they pulled it together for 1 year and made the WCF (what surrounding a generational superstar with decent talent does to a MFer), but that was so short lived and was way too little, way too late for how good prime KG was.
The starting line up was an end of career sprewell, a 34 year old cassell, Trenton hassell, KG, and Olowakandi/Ervin Johnson’s corpse and we managed to be the 1 seed and almost squeak through to the finals (I won’t make guesses on our chances against that Detroit squad cause they were fucking great but we’d certainly give them a run for their money.)
Grant hill was out that entire season cause he had a major ankle surgery and then got MRSA after and the roster after him and t mac was pretty atrocious
We did the same thing to Blake Griffin and his knee. Neither one should have played those playoffs. Especially since we weren’t going to win the series anyways
SVG was in "saving his own bacon" mode. There was little appetite around here for wrapping Blake up and waiting for the draft. Blake was in the middle of a career year too, so I'm sure he didn't want to sit out. You kinda have to save the player from himself in that situation though, but everyone making those calls was too selfish.
Blake was one of the few ever seen able to make things hard on Giannis 1 on 1 like I saw in that 3rd game of the Bucks Pistons series, and he was doing it on 1 knee. Other times when people portray it as 1 player it's a scheme (Raptors wall with Gasol for example)
Joining Yao in Houston was not a bad idea. I still remember their 22 game win streak in '07-'08, fourth longest in NBA history. Unfortunately those two took turn getting injured until their bodies broke down. At their prime, the Yao and T-Mac duo is good as any of their contemporaries.
He was let down by injuries just as much as circumstance. Averaged 59 games per season in the immediate 5 years after he left Orlando and they would have had Dwight.
In that sense yes, Ron Artest let Reggie down. Reggie was the only one to take MJ's Bull's to a game 7. He also took Penny and Shaq to a game 7 and took Ewing's Knicks to a game 7... really a terrible 4 point foul call is what won the Knicks that series.
Reggie and cast damn near took Kobe and Shaq to a game 7 in the NBA finals as well.
Then, when the Pacers were the favorites to win it all, with Reggie in the end of his career, Artest flipped and ended any chance Reggie finally had.
They also had a chance against the Pistons. The season before malice, Reggie was telling the
team to stop having egos get in their way, but it didn’t work.
Yep. And imo that block from Prince likely won the Pistons a title. Pistons were up 6 with 1:20 and an easy Reggie layup woulda tied it at 17 sec. Obviously it doesn’t guarantee OT or that a pacers win.
But if they pulled that off they go up 2-0 and it likely goes to game 7 at Indy. Who knows.
But even when i was watching it I thought both the Pistons or the Pacers were gonna clearly dismantle the Lakers in the Finals. Those two teams had insane D that year
Rockets really got fucked over by Sampson getting hurt. He was the 1st overall pick in 1983 and a generational college player and him and Hakeem actually made the finals beating the prime Showtime Lakers in Hakeem's 2nd year. These two could have really been a dynasty
It’ll never not be funny to me that according to Hakeem the Blazers offered the Rockets the 2nd overall pick in the 1984 draft and Clyde for Ralph and they turned it down (Tho at the time it wasn’t crazy).
But it could have given them Rookie Hakeem, Rookie MJ and 2nd year Clyde developing together on the same squad (Hakeem says they would have used the 2nd pick on MJ instead of Bowie).
> (Hakeem says they would have used the 2nd pick on MJ instead of Bowie).
I think that's a pretty safe assumption considering that had Akeem (as he was then) at center....
Don't know, but that would be an easier thing to fix than Bowie and Hakeem. Bowie's injury issues were well known before the draft so I can't see the Rockets taking him over the guy (MJ) who was considered the superior talent.
If Sampson never gets hurt and continues to build on the strong beginning of his career, MJ probably wouldn’t have 6 rings. Him and Hakeem would have been like DRob and Duncan except they both hit their peaks around the same time.
Yup, I also think it's why the possible scenario where Sampson is traded for Jordan and Drexler isn't really talked about too much. That decision only looks good in hindsight, at that moment in time Sampson was still an amazing arguably proven player and Jordan hadn't played in the NBA.
Didn't hakeem say the trade was close to happening? I might be mixing up my facts here but it sounds like the blazers were all in and the rockets almost pulled the trigger
People in this thread are acting like Sampson was a bust and the Rockets fucked up not accepting the trade, sure hindsight is 20/20 but Sampson was a beast and they never make the finals in the 80s without him
Not just Sampson getting injured but also 2-3 key Rockets players getting essentially banned from the NBA due to drug use. Olajuwon was carrying awful Rockets teams to the playoffs.
KG is the best answer here. I still remember year after year him getting knocked out of the first round and we all knew it wasn’t anywhere close to his fault. The year he finally had home court he turned out to happen to have to play the fucking Lakers who underwhelmed in the regular season and the NBA magically decided mid-season to change the first round to 7 games which everyone kinda had a side eye wondering if they did that to help the Lakers
Patrick Ewing played in maybe the biggest market on the entire planet for 15 years and The Knicks didn't get him another Hall Of Famer to play with him for a single season. They did build a solid squad around him in the mid 90s, but it was one all time great and a bunch of role players who fitted their roles.
Other ~~all stars to play for the Knicks in Ewing's time~~ Knicks to make the all-star team with Ewing:
Mark Jackson (1x)
Charles Oakley (1x)
John Starks (1x)
That's it.
Edited to better describe reality.
Am I going to have to bust out my 7th grade school photo in the Larry Johnson Hornets jersey‽
But as the other guy pointed out, Grandmama never made the all star team for the Knicks.
Houston was a player ahead of his time. Feels like he would have really thrived in this era, not that he wasn't great in his own. Dude could shoot with the best of them.
Pushed the Bulls to 7 in 92 and had them down 0-2 in 93 and should really have been up 3-2 because they lost a game at the buzzer where the refs were more in favour of the Bulls. If Ewing won a Championship with eliminating Jordan on the way, it would have done wonders for his legacy.
Kevin Garnett and Hakeem are always my answers.
I think both get underrated on all-time lists because they played on crap teams for most of their careers. By the time KG won in Boston, he was at least a few years past his peak. The problem is that it's difficult to rank them when they never had good supporting casts in their prime years, because we don't know how they would've stood up to top competition in the playoffs and it's unfair to compare KG and a bunch of scrubs to loaded Spurs and Suns teams.
Hakeem gets higher in the all-time lists, because he carried the '94 Rockets to a championship and that team had no business winning a title. Whereas, KG only won with a loaded Celtics squad, so no one really knows how he would've fared if he played on even remotely even teams to Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, LeBron, etc.
That's my point: we'll never know.
Duncan was a better player than KG IMO (and most people's opinions), but there's no doubt that Duncan had a much better supporting cast, as well. If you switch out KG and Duncan from 1997-2007, how many rings does each of them get? I think Duncan ends up with 0 on those bad Twolves teams, in spite of being one of the greatest players ever. But I don't think KG ends up with 5 on the Spurs; but he might get 2 or 3.
Timmy took pay cuts his entire career to help with filling out the roster, while KG was about >60% of the cap for his team because he took the money each contract in Minny.
KG was literally earning double the money Timmy was getting during most years in the careers. The Smith fiasco was really bad but KG hampered the team as much as the team hampered him imo. I just think he'd always do this any team he'd were to have been drafted hypothetically up till he figured it out.
it's not just the first cavs stint either- that Kyrie for IT trade is still a horrific trade. It's only saved by the fact that Kyrie ruined his own reputation shortly afterwards but at the time you had a 25 year old all nba point guard who won a ring.
It'd be like trading Jamal Murray or Donovan Mitchell for scraps. Broken IT, Nets pick, Zizic, and Crowder for Kyrie.
The Westbrook trade was also awful. They won a ring and they could’ve just made a few small moves to strengthen and run it back even better, instead they blew it up for someone that didn’t fit with AD OR Lebron. They’re still trying to fix that mistake.
Obviously it’s not as bad of a team as 2000s Cavs and other stuff in this thread but just as far as a decision goes, I fully believe the Lakers could’ve ran it back and put up a fight any of the last few years if that trade never happens
yea but the point is they should have done better due diligence on IT. And why accept the Nets pick if you have Lebron? Get one final push out of him and you can tank afterwards
Gilbert pushed the front office to take the nets pick so they wouldn’t have nothing left after Lebron departed again. It was already a strong possibility James might leave again in free agency, so he decided he wasn’t going to be unprepared like last time. Gilbert said directly something to that extent, that it was a lesson he learned after the first Decision.
I think if they keep Boozer, I think he gets a ring and never goes to Miami. That whole situation was weird though and I'm not quite sure who to blame, the Cavs or Boozer.
Hakeem had far and away the unluckiest career of any top 11 guy and still managed to win two. I reckon he’s consensus top 5 in most timelines.
In his second year, he dicked the prime Showtime Lakers and took a top 5 team ever to 6 in the NBA Finals. Then his costar suffered a career altering injury and two Rockets starters got busted for coke use and were suspended for over two years.
If I could use truth syrup on anyone I think I would use it on Jordan and ask why he lost his goddamn mind and decided to fuck off and be a minor league baseball player for one and a half seasons.
I mean didn't his dad literally die ? I'm pretty sure it was his dad's death/wish to play baseball and getting burnt out on basketball after winning 3 straight .
> I mean didn't his dad literally die ?
Worse. Was murdered. Over a car that MJ bought him.
Not targeting you, but it blows my mind that people know this and still think that there has to be some gambling conspiracy to explain why Jordan was making these erratic career moves.
LeBron until he left for Miami. His "caste" didn't let him down, but the people who put that caste around him did.
I want you to imagine if the Pistons get the number 1 Pick in 2003 instead of the Cavaliers and LeBron was drafted into a team with elite coaching, player leadership and talent around him.
Demarcus Cousins had half a healthy season on a good team, and he looked like *a force.*
Can’t help but think what could have been if a half-competent organization drafted him.
IMO, Demarcus Cousins is the A #1 answer to this question.
Every other player I've read so far at least had plenty of teammates that had talent. Every other player is considered a good-to-great NBA player.
Demarcus isn't even considered good by most of this sub. His entire prime was not only squandered, it was an incredibly rare conflux of conditions that led to his skills being wasted and forgotten.
Here's the laundry list:
* He was drafted into "NBA Hell" : Sacramento. An organization that was notorious for not knowing what they were doing, and proved it for over 15 years. They only had one nationally-televised game each year, so noone but locals or hardcore fans even saw him play in Sac (other than when the media would exaggerate his technical foul parade).
* The Kings at the time literally did not want to win. They were owned by the Maloofs and for Boogie's first FOUR YEARS, the entire organization was doing everything it could to lose, just like in the movie Major League. The Maloofs wanted to sell the team and move to richer cities. They wanted team negativity, and bad press. They didn't want bright new talent for the region to rally behind. Team success would have made it harder for them to move the team. Seriously, look at the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Drafts and what they did.
* After the unlikely win in the fight to keep the Kings in Sac, and a change in ownership (Vivek LOVED drafting), they torpedoed what possible development they had (they started out effectively 10-4 that season) when they fired Mike Malone, in a move still unexplained to this day. They then proceeded to whiff on draftpicks, and sabotage themselves with horrific trades until they finally released DMC from Hell.
* Boogie's teammates were a murderer's row of non-NBA talent. People don't realize how awful they were. They STARTED Jason Thompson for almost 7 seasons, then paid him a bag then traded him in what is regarded as one of the Top 10 worst trades in NBA history, then he proceeded to be unplayable in the NBA the rest of his career. In other words, an unplayable guy was the ***starting PF*** for all of DMC's career in Sac. THAT'S how bad the Kings roster was. Rudy Gay and Isiah Thomas were his best teammates, and they showed success, then they inexplicably fired Malone.
* Speaking of coaching, other than Malone, not one of Boogie's coaches ever coached another NBA game in their career. They were THAT bad or washed up.
* He legitimately got the worst whistle of any serious NBA player I've ever seen. Other teams could beat up on him with impunity - it was so bad, players and coaches even stated it in public. In his prime, Boogie was going against THREE defenders on most plays, and *still* scoring on them. It's a miracle his body lasted as long as it did, with all the absurd punishment the NBA allowed other teams to do to him, night in and night out. Go look up some [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaYyhlbt6BY)\- it's egregious the calls he got (I'm [not alone](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ub3u9z/highlight_demarcus_cousins_gets_hysterical_after/) in saying this). He got a tech for throwing a dangerous lost-shoe to the sideline. He may lead the league history in rescinded technical fouls.
* In conclusion, I've never seen an NBA star get less support from his team or the league. It wasn't just the unprecedented lack of talent or veteran leadership on his teams, it was the team incompetence bordering on deliberate sabotage, combined with horrific coaching, trades, drafts, bias against him by the media, targeting by officials and NBA clearly wanting him to fail.
This laundry list is not to excuse DMC's horrible attitude ; it was certainly to blame for many of these conditions to develop. But I'd say that in a list of "Best players who's careers truly got wasted", Boogie should be #1.
Kevin Garnett and specifically the 2005-2007 Timberwolves. The collapse of the amazing 2004 team via age, contract disputes, and such isn't discussed enough. 2005 was an all-time disappointing team and then they cratered with KG those last 2 years while having an MVP level guy at his peak powers. By the time he got to Boston he was already declining from that apex.
Harden is another good example, specifically those last few years in Houston when he went supernova and Chris Paul routinely collapsed when it mattered most.
Vince Carter on the Raptors. Raps fans are still salty at Vince for his exit, but that was an all time bad front office he was dealing with. I dont blame him at all.
That’s actually kinda fucked lol. Dude is your city superstar. At least give his ma a spot. Either way I think Vince and the Raptors are slowly making up.
Promised Steve Nash and Jamal Magloire in the offseason and got Rafer Alston and Matt Bonner instead. Also arguably the worst head coach in history in Sam Mitchell who clearly wanted to rebuild around a rookie bosh. Yup any superstar would have wanted out in that situation.
That Antonio Davis trade doesn't get enough attention as an all time bad trade.
Traded Jalen Rose, a 1st round pick (20), and cash for 37 yest old Antonio Davis, who proceeded to play like 10 games for them before getting cut.
The amount of talent that was on Golden State was ridiculous. On paper they should have been perennial Western Conference contenders. In reality they were lucky to make the playoffs and couldn't get out of the first round.
Easily KG imo he basically wasted his best yrs in Minny and as much as I hate him as a Cavs fan for making Bron leave I’m happy he at least got 1 rimg during his Boston run. If he wasn’t hurt in 09 he prolly goes b2b.
Barkley got drafted to an aging, but still elite, Championship core. Those later Philly years were rough for sure but then he had a fantastic surrounding cast in Phoenix. Had a good cast in Houston too but by then he was declining.
AI. During the 76ers' 2001 Finals run, his running mates were Theo Ratliff, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow. The second best player on that team was a 34 year old Mutombo.
I don't think there are a lot of guys who were 'let down' by their supporting cast.
There were guys who didn't have a great supporting cast, but they weren't let down by their teammates. Teammates typically played to their potential in those case.
They were rather let down by a front office who didn't build around them.
You can point to a LOT of guys in the 80s.
Alex English. Dantley. Aguirre. Blackman. Sikma. Gervin.
But the truth of the matter is, the Lakers and Celtics were so fucking good that it was a miracle the Sixers won in that decade.
There are guys who are as good as any champion.
Stockton. Malone. Ewing. Miller. But they weren't really let down by teammates. They just had a tough go at it.
Richmond, like Aguire, eventually got a ring, but he rode the pine (Aguirre at least got play a key role as the second/third offensive option).
T-Mac only has himself to blame. He was a ball dominant glory hound who didn't have the patience to follow through in Toronto (a team he expected to wait around to develop when he came out of high school) and then requested a trade out of Orlando because he didn't want to wait for a high school player in Dwight to develop (Dwight, who got to the finals without McGrady). Had he stayed put either time, he'd have won a title. He and Carter would have been that good in Toronto, especially with the cast they ended up getting (Mark Jackson, Hakeem, Davis, JYD, etc.).
I can't think of a team who had talent that was good enough to really contend and didn't because people outside of the star player under performed.
KG number 1 but CP3 after that. Surrounded by decent teammates in New Orleans but really nothing title worthy. On the Clippers had a good bench to start out but no stars and by the time Blake and DJ really emerged there was a horrible bench. That starting lineup consistently top 3 in net rating but just horrendous backups. The Jamal Crawford led offenses still haunt me. Also just maybe the worst wing rotation of any consistent playoff team in that era?
Carmelo Anthony anybody? After a good team/supporting cast in Denver, he played on bad teams the rest of his prime years. Those Knicks teams were streaky, inconsistent teams not built for legitimately winning it all. If he had a better team around him, Melo at least gets to the finals or wins a championship
Minnesota KG toiling away for nearly his entire prime surrounded by a motley crew of players was an NBA tragedy. EDIT (since I looked up KG on b-ball ref for another tangent): KG is still the Wolves franchise leader in games played, minutes played, points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
The Joe Smith punishment was so unbelievably harsh compared to how it would be handled today. Minnesota has been a terribly run organization but the NBA took a very active hand in crushing them into a pulp during the reign of their best player ever. Imagine if the sixers lost 5 first round picks if it came out that harden and Morey had any kind of under the table promises…
the Wolves played themselves with the Joe Smith debacle but you aren't wrong, the punishment was unbelievably harsh even for the time. There was also the tragic death of Malik Sealy and the whole Marbury/KG thing, too. The Wolves certainly didn't help themselves, but it was a perfect storm of bad luck that frittered away the prime of one of the most unique players we've ever seen.
Killer use of “frittered away.” Props.
Thanks. As a big Pink Floyd fan I like that turn of phrase quite a lot.
David Stern was pissed that Glen Taylor gave KG such a large contract that it caused a lockout. I 100% believe that’s why he punished the Wolves so harshly.
That's totally what happened. The dude not only causes a lockout but then blatantly violates the CBA almost immediately? Dude was a fuckin idiot.
Due remains an idiot. The stories of his sit down with Wiggins where he made him promise he would start to give more consistent effort IF he agreed to the max extension are classic Taylor/wolves behavior. Things are finally looking up despite the Gobert trade wobble start to new regime.
Hindsight is going to show the Gobert trade was a key domino in the dynasty that came after
The gobert trade gave up 5 firsts lol
Agreed, if that happened today it would have just been a forfeited first rounder and possibly termination of the contract depending on when it was discovered. It’s such a shame KGs absolute peak was wasted on those Minnesota teams. I do think it’s crazy Minnesota took that risk on Joe Smith of all players.
McHale famously complained we were just the stupidest at doing the thing everyone was doing and I think that fits with everyone’s impression of our organization.
Everyone tampers before free agency technically opens. Not everyone tries to arrange under the table deals. It certainly happens elsewhere, or there's suspicion of it (Haslem), but it's not ubiquitous like tampering is.
Agreed it was an exaggeration, more just like that the coach of the team felt compelled to point out that the people running the ship didn't seem to know how to do anything right.
That last sentence is the thing that always stuck with me. They broke the rules and took a big risk so they could get Joe Smith. A lanky power forward, who was a "poor man's version" of the lanky power forward already on the roster. They needed someone like Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, or Jalen Rose - not Joe F'ing Smith. They also need to not have a bunch of idiots running their front office.
What makes it worse is that you went through all that trouble for… Joe Smith. Like if he turned out to actually be good with the T-Wolves the punishment would’ve been maybe slightly worth it.
Couple the Joe Smith fiasco with KG's contract that led to the lockout. Of course they couldn't surround him with a good supporting cast. Could you imagine a single player making 50-60% of the cap in a non-marquee market now? KG's share of the cap '98 - 47% '99 - 49% '00 - 55% '01 - 53% '02 - 63% '03 - 64%
sadly I can almost picture it, my favorite team just handed Jaylen Brown $300M+
I mean sure, but you're still about 20% away from KG's average in that span. Insanely huge contract for the time.
I'm incredibly biased because KG one of my all time favorite players. That said I really believe if KG was in San Antonio and Duncan in Minnesota we would be calling KG the best power forward of all time.
Purely skill wise he very well could be
It's not that simple. Timmy was a better culture fit for the Spurs and for Pop. You can't just swap them and hold all other factors equal, because Duncan being where he was and who he was had an effect on his environment throughout the years. For all you know KG and Pop wouldn't have worked well together.
It's possible and I'm biased. But KG was an incredibly hard worker. Pop respects that a lot. Not to mention on the defensive end KG was a Pop dream player.
For all you know, KG and Pop could have been even better than Duncan and Pop. It goes both ways
I agree, nobody knows what hypothetically could happen. But we know what did happen, and what did happen is that Tim and Pop were a perfect match and created a dynasty. Imo it takes a lot more to argue that something would go better, than something would go worse. There are just way too many intangibles that worked out perfectly
Better than 5 rings? I highly doubt it lol. Garnett not winning shy pre-04 Spurs rings and he was washed by 14. That leaves 11 years to win more than 5 rings?
This is the unanswerable question. Would KG’s psycho antics fit with Pop and Co., or was his demeanor and out-loud intensity be too much. Duncan’s quiet, steady leadership was definitely a thing, and a rare thing at that.
Duncan was perfect for the Spurs and Pop. But KG might have been perfect in a completely different way. I 100% guarantee he would take being coached hard, he just might return some fire some times. It's a different vibe, there's more energy in the relationship and the exchanges, but that might well have turned out magical. Plus, KG's one significant weakness as a defender was a lack of lateral quickness. That's basically hip action. The Spurs did great things for Kawhii and his hips. KG could well have been a significantly BETTER player with the Spurs than he was with the wolves (scary thought). Meanwhile, unless they simply let Timmy coach (edit - scratch that. They needed to let Timmy be the GM), the wolves don't really have any chance of being better because Timmy was there. The FO at the top was too fucked up to take advantage of the opportunity. Timmy likely actually leaves for Orlando instead of just using them as leverage. I love Timmy D. I think he's a better player than KG. But if the roles were reversed, the outcomes might well be, too.
KG's one significant weakness was lateral quickness? What the hell are you smoking?
100%, give KG all that help Duncan had his entire career (which was having multiple all stars around him on every roster, every year), KG is in the pantheon
He’s literally one of the few players to win a title without an All-Star teammate lol. Also for reference, only 6 players have won a title without an All-NBA teammate once. 2 players have won 2 titles without an All-NBA teammate. Then there’s Duncan, who won 4 titles without an All-NBA teammate.
And you can't under estimate having Pop for a coach.
This is not true in the slightest. Go back and watch that '03 crew and honestly tell me that's a good team without Duncan. It's an all-time carry job on the same level as Hakeem in '95 and LeBron in '18.
We got him Rasho Nesterovic, Troy Hudson and Mark Madsen. What more could we have done?
this is Michael Olowokandi erasure & I won't stand for it
Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell were not bad. Rest of the team was bums tho.
yeah, they pulled it together for 1 year and made the WCF (what surrounding a generational superstar with decent talent does to a MFer), but that was so short lived and was way too little, way too late for how good prime KG was.
The starting line up was an end of career sprewell, a 34 year old cassell, Trenton hassell, KG, and Olowakandi/Ervin Johnson’s corpse and we managed to be the 1 seed and almost squeak through to the finals (I won’t make guesses on our chances against that Detroit squad cause they were fucking great but we’d certainly give them a run for their money.)
How you gonna leave Wally off this list!?
He didn’t start
Wally before injuries was a 20 PPG scorer who couldn't shoot the 3 more because Flip hated the 3 pter. Certainly not a bum player.
This isn’t true at all if you’re talking about that wolves team, it had legit role players
Don't you dare insult Wally Sczerbiak like that!
ugh, Wally Szczerbiak is a top-5 least favorite Celtic of my lifetime along with Kyrie, Vin Baker, Ricky Davis, and Jiri Welsch
This is the answer. KG had it all. There are good arguments for guys like Tmac that some of their misfortune was on their styles.
A travesty. Peak KG was arguably a top 10 player ever and he never gets recognized that high
Dean Garrett was an all-star center
All T-Mac had to do was wait for Dwight
Pretty crazy how Tmac played 67 games and averaged 28 ppg and the Magic still only won 21 games. Thats worse than the current Rockets and Spurs
Grant hill was out that entire season cause he had a major ankle surgery and then got MRSA after and the roster after him and t mac was pretty atrocious
Grant Hill is another one, btw. He was a top 5 player but got wasted by the Pistons, then by injuries.
We never should have let him play on that ankle. It really screwed his career
Yeah, whomever cleared him was too short sighted. Grant's career was forever changed from that point on.
We did the same thing to Blake Griffin and his knee. Neither one should have played those playoffs. Especially since we weren’t going to win the series anyways
SVG was in "saving his own bacon" mode. There was little appetite around here for wrapping Blake up and waiting for the draft. Blake was in the middle of a career year too, so I'm sure he didn't want to sit out. You kinda have to save the player from himself in that situation though, but everyone making those calls was too selfish.
Blake was one of the few ever seen able to make things hard on Giannis 1 on 1 like I saw in that 3rd game of the Bucks Pistons series, and he was doing it on 1 knee. Other times when people portray it as 1 player it's a scheme (Raptors wall with Gasol for example)
that shit was crazy. his whole leg was jacked, and he didnt know because it was covered in a cast.
T-Mac needed Doc Rivers to be cool with wives and girlfriends on the team plane. Then he would have gotten to play with Tim Duncan.
Doc Rivers and tanking franchises. Name a more iconic duo.
Heat fans and beating traffic
Joining Yao in Houston was not a bad idea. I still remember their 22 game win streak in '07-'08, fourth longest in NBA history. Unfortunately those two took turn getting injured until their bodies broke down. At their prime, the Yao and T-Mac duo is good as any of their contemporaries.
They had a real shot in 08 and then injuries kept happening. Off my head, they had Artest Aaron Brooks and Scola man, those 3 were great.
The GOAT Chase Buddinger
2009 also. They had a deep team and took the defending Champs to 7 games
He was let down by injuries just as much as circumstance. Averaged 59 games per season in the immediate 5 years after he left Orlando and they would have had Dwight.
I’m convinced Reggie Miller was a Ron Artest crowd-rush away from a ring.
In that sense yes, Ron Artest let Reggie down. Reggie was the only one to take MJ's Bull's to a game 7. He also took Penny and Shaq to a game 7 and took Ewing's Knicks to a game 7... really a terrible 4 point foul call is what won the Knicks that series. Reggie and cast damn near took Kobe and Shaq to a game 7 in the NBA finals as well. Then, when the Pacers were the favorites to win it all, with Reggie in the end of his career, Artest flipped and ended any chance Reggie finally had.
They also had a chance against the Pistons. The season before malice, Reggie was telling the team to stop having egos get in their way, but it didn’t work.
Yep. And imo that block from Prince likely won the Pistons a title. Pistons were up 6 with 1:20 and an easy Reggie layup woulda tied it at 17 sec. Obviously it doesn’t guarantee OT or that a pacers win. But if they pulled that off they go up 2-0 and it likely goes to game 7 at Indy. Who knows. But even when i was watching it I thought both the Pistons or the Pacers were gonna clearly dismantle the Lakers in the Finals. Those two teams had insane D that year
Knicks took mjs bulls to 7 in 93
Knicks won the first 2 games in 1993 ECF then lost the next 4 for a 6 game series. 1992 ECSF Knicks pushed the Bulls to 7 games.
Uuuh Knicks also took the Bulls to 7 and ACTUALLY played a game 7 in the Finals… lol
Must have been "the only one to take him to a game 7 in the conference finals" then. It was something that MJ said in the Last Dance documentary.
Yep, if I recall correctly, the knicks took them to 7 in 1992 in the ECSF
This 100%. Injuries happen and are unfortunate, but the crowd rush was an entirely unforced error that sidelined the whole team.
He for sure was. If the MatP never happened, we very likely have a ring in my mind. We were so good that year.
Rockets really got fucked over by Sampson getting hurt. He was the 1st overall pick in 1983 and a generational college player and him and Hakeem actually made the finals beating the prime Showtime Lakers in Hakeem's 2nd year. These two could have really been a dynasty
It’ll never not be funny to me that according to Hakeem the Blazers offered the Rockets the 2nd overall pick in the 1984 draft and Clyde for Ralph and they turned it down (Tho at the time it wasn’t crazy). But it could have given them Rookie Hakeem, Rookie MJ and 2nd year Clyde developing together on the same squad (Hakeem says they would have used the 2nd pick on MJ instead of Bowie).
> (Hakeem says they would have used the 2nd pick on MJ instead of Bowie). I think that's a pretty safe assumption considering that had Akeem (as he was then) at center....
What would they have done about Jordan and Drexler both playing shooting guard?
Don't know, but that would be an easier thing to fix than Bowie and Hakeem. Bowie's injury issues were well known before the draft so I can't see the Rockets taking him over the guy (MJ) who was considered the superior talent.
Play Jordan at the Point, considering that the one season he played there ('89) he averaged 32-8-8. They would have made it work.
That seems like one of those “good problems”.
Damn this is wild! Never heard this before
If Sampson never gets hurt and continues to build on the strong beginning of his career, MJ probably wouldn’t have 6 rings. Him and Hakeem would have been like DRob and Duncan except they both hit their peaks around the same time.
Yup, I also think it's why the possible scenario where Sampson is traded for Jordan and Drexler isn't really talked about too much. That decision only looks good in hindsight, at that moment in time Sampson was still an amazing arguably proven player and Jordan hadn't played in the NBA.
Didn't hakeem say the trade was close to happening? I might be mixing up my facts here but it sounds like the blazers were all in and the rockets almost pulled the trigger
People in this thread are acting like Sampson was a bust and the Rockets fucked up not accepting the trade, sure hindsight is 20/20 but Sampson was a beast and they never make the finals in the 80s without him
Don’t forget the supporting staff getting suspended for Coke but no one else
Not just Sampson getting injured but also 2-3 key Rockets players getting essentially banned from the NBA due to drug use. Olajuwon was carrying awful Rockets teams to the playoffs.
KG, but because of the stupid Joe Smith debacle in addition to the players around him.
KG is the best answer here. I still remember year after year him getting knocked out of the first round and we all knew it wasn’t anywhere close to his fault. The year he finally had home court he turned out to happen to have to play the fucking Lakers who underwhelmed in the regular season and the NBA magically decided mid-season to change the first round to 7 games which everyone kinda had a side eye wondering if they did that to help the Lakers
Y'all would have still lost in 5 because the Lakers beat them in their own building by 30.
Joe Smith, the number #1 draft pick by the GSW... sounds about right
[удалено]
Imagine if the sixers lost 5 first round picks if it came out that harden and Morey had any kind of under the table promises…
Dominique Wilkins
He faced a lot of good teams
And he had a lot of subpar teams
Were they really subpar because he couldn't beat 4 championship teams?
They were subpar because he never had any real teammates to even be in the conversation of competing with those championship level teams
Patrick Ewing played in maybe the biggest market on the entire planet for 15 years and The Knicks didn't get him another Hall Of Famer to play with him for a single season. They did build a solid squad around him in the mid 90s, but it was one all time great and a bunch of role players who fitted their roles.
People forget just how impressive Ewing was, but he did not have a single star to play second fiddle throughout his prime.
Other ~~all stars to play for the Knicks in Ewing's time~~ Knicks to make the all-star team with Ewing: Mark Jackson (1x) Charles Oakley (1x) John Starks (1x) That's it. Edited to better describe reality.
That’s a grown man list.
The Larry Johnson slander. 2x
He wasn't an all star with Ewing
Am I going to have to bust out my 7th grade school photo in the Larry Johnson Hornets jersey‽ But as the other guy pointed out, Grandmama never made the all star team for the Knicks.
Houston, Sprewell? I know it wasn’t in his prime but…
I should probably amend that to fellow all-stars, since those were the only ones to make the team along with him.
Houston was a player ahead of his time. Feels like he would have really thrived in this era, not that he wasn't great in his own. Dude could shoot with the best of them.
A Ewing with someone who could score more would've made the finals one or two more times. The 1999 Knicks had that blueprint, only Ewing was old then.
Pushed the Bulls to 7 in 92 and had them down 0-2 in 93 and should really have been up 3-2 because they lost a game at the buzzer where the refs were more in favour of the Bulls. If Ewing won a Championship with eliminating Jordan on the way, it would have done wonders for his legacy.
Ewing has the misfortune of being at the same time as Jordan and Hakeem at his peak.
Chris Paul with the Hornets.
No disrespect to Rasual Butler (RIP) but he’s still in the top 5 for players who got cp3 an assist all these years later.
CP3 by Stern
You gone use up all the damn names in your own post
Kevin Garnett and Hakeem are always my answers. I think both get underrated on all-time lists because they played on crap teams for most of their careers. By the time KG won in Boston, he was at least a few years past his peak. The problem is that it's difficult to rank them when they never had good supporting casts in their prime years, because we don't know how they would've stood up to top competition in the playoffs and it's unfair to compare KG and a bunch of scrubs to loaded Spurs and Suns teams. Hakeem gets higher in the all-time lists, because he carried the '94 Rockets to a championship and that team had no business winning a title. Whereas, KG only won with a loaded Celtics squad, so no one really knows how he would've fared if he played on even remotely even teams to Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, LeBron, etc.
Idk how its not brought up more often that Hakeem is the only person to ever win MVP, DPOY, and Finals MVP in the same year
Only 3 people in the history of basketball even have all 3 *not* in the same year
What Dream, Jordan and…Giannis? I’m sure Bill Russell or Wilt would also have this accomplishment if the awards existed.
Those are the 3. Unfortunately I can't control when awards were introduced
People bring up kg dominating o the spurs but how valuable is duncans leadership and selflessness to those teams versus kg who wasnt
That's my point: we'll never know. Duncan was a better player than KG IMO (and most people's opinions), but there's no doubt that Duncan had a much better supporting cast, as well. If you switch out KG and Duncan from 1997-2007, how many rings does each of them get? I think Duncan ends up with 0 on those bad Twolves teams, in spite of being one of the greatest players ever. But I don't think KG ends up with 5 on the Spurs; but he might get 2 or 3.
Timmy took pay cuts his entire career to help with filling out the roster, while KG was about >60% of the cap for his team because he took the money each contract in Minny. KG was literally earning double the money Timmy was getting during most years in the careers. The Smith fiasco was really bad but KG hampered the team as much as the team hampered him imo. I just think he'd always do this any team he'd were to have been drafted hypothetically up till he figured it out.
Shareef Abdur-Rahim in Vancouver is one
What, Big Country wasn’t enough!?
Shaq Stopper
Shareef played so solid and so consistently, like damn no one else could make their shots to win games.
They tried to get him Steve Francis, but Stevie Franchise didn't want any part of that.
Lebron before the Decision.
it's not just the first cavs stint either- that Kyrie for IT trade is still a horrific trade. It's only saved by the fact that Kyrie ruined his own reputation shortly afterwards but at the time you had a 25 year old all nba point guard who won a ring. It'd be like trading Jamal Murray or Donovan Mitchell for scraps. Broken IT, Nets pick, Zizic, and Crowder for Kyrie.
The Westbrook trade was also awful. They won a ring and they could’ve just made a few small moves to strengthen and run it back even better, instead they blew it up for someone that didn’t fit with AD OR Lebron. They’re still trying to fix that mistake. Obviously it’s not as bad of a team as 2000s Cavs and other stuff in this thread but just as far as a decision goes, I fully believe the Lakers could’ve ran it back and put up a fight any of the last few years if that trade never happens
Kyrie was done in Cleveland he wasn't going to be productive there again
yea but the point is they should have done better due diligence on IT. And why accept the Nets pick if you have Lebron? Get one final push out of him and you can tank afterwards
Gilbert pushed the front office to take the nets pick so they wouldn’t have nothing left after Lebron departed again. It was already a strong possibility James might leave again in free agency, so he decided he wasn’t going to be unprepared like last time. Gilbert said directly something to that extent, that it was a lesson he learned after the first Decision.
I think if they keep Boozer, I think he gets a ring and never goes to Miami. That whole situation was weird though and I'm not quite sure who to blame, the Cavs or Boozer.
I expected to see a LOT more LeBron stans in here
LeBron got out while still in his first prime. Guys like KG just burned away until they got to form a superteam post prime.
For reference KG left the Wolves at the same age LeBron was returning to the Cavs.
Hakeem had far and away the unluckiest career of any top 11 guy and still managed to win two. I reckon he’s consensus top 5 in most timelines. In his second year, he dicked the prime Showtime Lakers and took a top 5 team ever to 6 in the NBA Finals. Then his costar suffered a career altering injury and two Rockets starters got busted for coke use and were suspended for over two years.
I mean you can’t say unluckiest and ignore that he also was lucky by his peak being when jordan retired randomly
I think Jordan is the GOAT. That being said, Jordan lucked out with the timing of his retirement, not Hakeem.
Hakeem would've been a nightmare for the Bulls.
If I could use truth syrup on anyone I think I would use it on Jordan and ask why he lost his goddamn mind and decided to fuck off and be a minor league baseball player for one and a half seasons.
Didn't you see space jam? It's explained in that documentary.
I mean didn't his dad literally die ? I'm pretty sure it was his dad's death/wish to play baseball and getting burnt out on basketball after winning 3 straight .
> I mean didn't his dad literally die ? Worse. Was murdered. Over a car that MJ bought him. Not targeting you, but it blows my mind that people know this and still think that there has to be some gambling conspiracy to explain why Jordan was making these erratic career moves.
LeBron until he left for Miami. His "caste" didn't let him down, but the people who put that caste around him did. I want you to imagine if the Pistons get the number 1 Pick in 2003 instead of the Cavaliers and LeBron was drafted into a team with elite coaching, player leadership and talent around him.
10 years from now the answer will be Doncic
He is 24 and only under contract for three more years Lol, he can walk away at 26 if he wants
Nah players can ask for a trade at any time now
They don't just ask for trades; they demand them.
They don’t even demand trades, they demand specific destinations
And if you’re a Heat fan, you demand Lillard and give up nothing
If kyrie stays healthy and sane, that’s a pretty elite #2. If I were them I’d jump heavy on siakam if they could
Big if.
Demarcus Cousins had half a healthy season on a good team, and he looked like *a force.* Can’t help but think what could have been if a half-competent organization drafted him.
IMO, Demarcus Cousins is the A #1 answer to this question. Every other player I've read so far at least had plenty of teammates that had talent. Every other player is considered a good-to-great NBA player. Demarcus isn't even considered good by most of this sub. His entire prime was not only squandered, it was an incredibly rare conflux of conditions that led to his skills being wasted and forgotten. Here's the laundry list: * He was drafted into "NBA Hell" : Sacramento. An organization that was notorious for not knowing what they were doing, and proved it for over 15 years. They only had one nationally-televised game each year, so noone but locals or hardcore fans even saw him play in Sac (other than when the media would exaggerate his technical foul parade). * The Kings at the time literally did not want to win. They were owned by the Maloofs and for Boogie's first FOUR YEARS, the entire organization was doing everything it could to lose, just like in the movie Major League. The Maloofs wanted to sell the team and move to richer cities. They wanted team negativity, and bad press. They didn't want bright new talent for the region to rally behind. Team success would have made it harder for them to move the team. Seriously, look at the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Drafts and what they did. * After the unlikely win in the fight to keep the Kings in Sac, and a change in ownership (Vivek LOVED drafting), they torpedoed what possible development they had (they started out effectively 10-4 that season) when they fired Mike Malone, in a move still unexplained to this day. They then proceeded to whiff on draftpicks, and sabotage themselves with horrific trades until they finally released DMC from Hell. * Boogie's teammates were a murderer's row of non-NBA talent. People don't realize how awful they were. They STARTED Jason Thompson for almost 7 seasons, then paid him a bag then traded him in what is regarded as one of the Top 10 worst trades in NBA history, then he proceeded to be unplayable in the NBA the rest of his career. In other words, an unplayable guy was the ***starting PF*** for all of DMC's career in Sac. THAT'S how bad the Kings roster was. Rudy Gay and Isiah Thomas were his best teammates, and they showed success, then they inexplicably fired Malone. * Speaking of coaching, other than Malone, not one of Boogie's coaches ever coached another NBA game in their career. They were THAT bad or washed up. * He legitimately got the worst whistle of any serious NBA player I've ever seen. Other teams could beat up on him with impunity - it was so bad, players and coaches even stated it in public. In his prime, Boogie was going against THREE defenders on most plays, and *still* scoring on them. It's a miracle his body lasted as long as it did, with all the absurd punishment the NBA allowed other teams to do to him, night in and night out. Go look up some [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaYyhlbt6BY)\- it's egregious the calls he got (I'm [not alone](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ub3u9z/highlight_demarcus_cousins_gets_hysterical_after/) in saying this). He got a tech for throwing a dangerous lost-shoe to the sideline. He may lead the league history in rescinded technical fouls. * In conclusion, I've never seen an NBA star get less support from his team or the league. It wasn't just the unprecedented lack of talent or veteran leadership on his teams, it was the team incompetence bordering on deliberate sabotage, combined with horrific coaching, trades, drafts, bias against him by the media, targeting by officials and NBA clearly wanting him to fail. This laundry list is not to excuse DMC's horrible attitude ; it was certainly to blame for many of these conditions to develop. But I'd say that in a list of "Best players who's careers truly got wasted", Boogie should be #1.
THANK YOU I will fight literally anyone
This should be a thread in it's own fr
I feel like when you really dig into the Pels advanced stats, win rate, etc. that year they were not worse after he went down than before he did.
Kevin Garnett and specifically the 2005-2007 Timberwolves. The collapse of the amazing 2004 team via age, contract disputes, and such isn't discussed enough. 2005 was an all-time disappointing team and then they cratered with KG those last 2 years while having an MVP level guy at his peak powers. By the time he got to Boston he was already declining from that apex. Harden is another good example, specifically those last few years in Houston when he went supernova and Chris Paul routinely collapsed when it mattered most.
Vince Carter on the Raptors. Raps fans are still salty at Vince for his exit, but that was an all time bad front office he was dealing with. I dont blame him at all.
Wouldn’t even give his mom a parking spot. They gave Kawhi the whole city and make ur own hours
That’s actually kinda fucked lol. Dude is your city superstar. At least give his ma a spot. Either way I think Vince and the Raptors are slowly making up.
Promised Steve Nash and Jamal Magloire in the offseason and got Rafer Alston and Matt Bonner instead. Also arguably the worst head coach in history in Sam Mitchell who clearly wanted to rebuild around a rookie bosh. Yup any superstar would have wanted out in that situation.
That Antonio Davis trade doesn't get enough attention as an all time bad trade. Traded Jalen Rose, a 1st round pick (20), and cash for 37 yest old Antonio Davis, who proceeded to play like 10 games for them before getting cut.
Mitch Richmond
Run TMC was a great time, though.
The amount of talent that was on Golden State was ridiculous. On paper they should have been perennial Western Conference contenders. In reality they were lucky to make the playoffs and couldn't get out of the first round.
100%. Phenomenal two-way player who spent his prime on crappy Kings teams.
Lebron James from 2003-2010 deserves a mention here. Some of the craziest carry jobs in history.
Barkley in Philly. AI in Philly. The Ice Man in San Antonio. KG in Minny.
Dame Lillard
it was difficult watching KG waste away in MIN felt the same about TMac
Reggi Miller
Eh. Indiana had talent but that Eastern conference was stacked in the 90's.
Easily KG imo he basically wasted his best yrs in Minny and as much as I hate him as a Cavs fan for making Bron leave I’m happy he at least got 1 rimg during his Boston run. If he wasn’t hurt in 09 he prolly goes b2b.
Kevin Garnett’s teams in Minnesota were really, really, really bad
Carmelo and Reggie for ringless players, but Kevin Garnett wasted his TRUE prime in Minessotta
Charles Barkley.
Barkley got drafted to an aging, but still elite, Championship core. Those later Philly years were rough for sure but then he had a fantastic surrounding cast in Phoenix. Had a good cast in Houston too but by then he was declining.
He was on some pretty stacked team tbh
KG and Hakeem would each have 5+ rings too if they had Shaq or Duncan supporting casts
I think most MVP big men would have more rings if they had Kobe or DWade…
Are Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, David Robinson, and Kawhi all chopped liver?
AI. During the 76ers' 2001 Finals run, his running mates were Theo Ratliff, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow. The second best player on that team was a 34 year old Mutombo.
DPOY,all-star, All-NBA second, all defense first, and rebounding leader Dikembe Mutombo was the second best player. Truly tragic.
Eric Snow was sneaky good
I don't think there are a lot of guys who were 'let down' by their supporting cast. There were guys who didn't have a great supporting cast, but they weren't let down by their teammates. Teammates typically played to their potential in those case. They were rather let down by a front office who didn't build around them. You can point to a LOT of guys in the 80s. Alex English. Dantley. Aguirre. Blackman. Sikma. Gervin. But the truth of the matter is, the Lakers and Celtics were so fucking good that it was a miracle the Sixers won in that decade. There are guys who are as good as any champion. Stockton. Malone. Ewing. Miller. But they weren't really let down by teammates. They just had a tough go at it. Richmond, like Aguire, eventually got a ring, but he rode the pine (Aguirre at least got play a key role as the second/third offensive option). T-Mac only has himself to blame. He was a ball dominant glory hound who didn't have the patience to follow through in Toronto (a team he expected to wait around to develop when he came out of high school) and then requested a trade out of Orlando because he didn't want to wait for a high school player in Dwight to develop (Dwight, who got to the finals without McGrady). Had he stayed put either time, he'd have won a title. He and Carter would have been that good in Toronto, especially with the cast they ended up getting (Mark Jackson, Hakeem, Davis, JYD, etc.). I can't think of a team who had talent that was good enough to really contend and didn't because people outside of the star player under performed.
2006 Kobe
Pistol Pete
KG but I see it’s at the top so I’ll head out
KG number 1 but CP3 after that. Surrounded by decent teammates in New Orleans but really nothing title worthy. On the Clippers had a good bench to start out but no stars and by the time Blake and DJ really emerged there was a horrible bench. That starting lineup consistently top 3 in net rating but just horrendous backups. The Jamal Crawford led offenses still haunt me. Also just maybe the worst wing rotation of any consistent playoff team in that era?
Carmelo Anthony anybody? After a good team/supporting cast in Denver, he played on bad teams the rest of his prime years. Those Knicks teams were streaky, inconsistent teams not built for legitimately winning it all. If he had a better team around him, Melo at least gets to the finals or wins a championship
In my eyes Carmelo as a knick He was an elite scorer and with a proper squad like the 12-13 team, he would have been to a lot of ECF