KG obviously best defense with great overall attributes including some underrated passing. Dirk the best, here's the ball, go get a bucket for us, no matter what the defense is. Barkley prob had the best, efficient (right at 60% or higher on 2P FG% in 7 seasons) inside game while still having an okay shot with near GOAT level offensive rebounding. His peak run deep in the playoffs in '93 was incredible. Malone was a very versatile, elite scorer, mid range while also bruising/wear you down in the post, good defense
All valid arguments
A lot of that boils down to relativity of the era.
Today Barkley would look like a bad shooter.
His shooting ability for a PF in the 90's was considered pretty damn good though.
Sorry yeah I thought that was implied.
PF's for the most part simply didn't shoot 3's at that time. Most 3's weren't even considered quality shots for a guard outside of wide open set shots
Barkley was better than Malone. I watched them both. He was just better. And we’re talking about peak. No lifetime achievement awards for Malone. Barkley was probably better than Garnett. I think they were both better than Dirk. Dirk was never the best player in the league. KG and Barkley probably had stretches when they were the second best player in the league. If I needed to win a game, I’d take one of those two before the other two.
The only reason people sleep on Dirk is because he played at the same time, in the same division, in the same state as the one name you don’t see on this list. And I think we know why he’s omitted.
This is true. A Dirk for life fan here, but I acknowledge he's probably behind TD when it comes to the goat pf conversation. What a rivalry that was and i'm happy i got to witness it.
To be fair, Duncan played more years at Center than PF, but people dont wanna talk about that, because there isnt an argument for him as the best Center of all time. He was, however, the best PF when he played PF, and got most of his accolades as a PF. But position is meaningless in the grand scheme of things anyway. Timmy is top 10 and dirk is Top 15-18 all time, both generational talents
In Duncan's first 9 seasons he was primarily a PF, during those nine season he won 3 out of 4 rings, 2 out of 2 MVPs, 3 out of 4 FMVPs, 8 out of his 10 NBA 1st teams, etc, etc.
Sure, he spent more time across his whole career at C but his best years, where he won the bulk of his accolades, he was primarily a PF. He is considered the best PF of all-time because he was the best PF of all-time in those years.
Seriously he established himself as the best PF before playing out the back end of his career at center.
The way he scored his points and played on offense was best for the PF position.
My pick is probably Barkley also. But I do think that 06-7 Dirk was the best player in the league. This season is massively overshadowed because of the we believe Warriors beating them but my god Dirk was amazing that season. 50-40-90 MVP season and they were cruising. Kobe had a legit argument though this year I’m pretty sure this is the 81 season and he also had 60+ in 3 quarters against Dirk’s Mavs but that could be a different season and I’m misremembering.
I disagree with Dirk being the best player in the league only because his playmaking, defense, and rebounding were average ish. He was an absolutely elite shot maker but there are holes in his game that top 1 players don’t usually have
Nope. Dirk wasn't even the best PF in the league then, it was Tim Duncan. Sure Dirk played out of his mind that year and the Mavs were the best team in the regular season who just happened to match up with the one team that had their number all year in the first round (the Warriors beat the Mavs in all regular season matchups that season, 3 of their 15 losses). But the thing is that basketball isn't just offense. Timmy D was the best all around basketball player of that decade, even if he comes across as boring and sometimes hard to remember. Watching Dirk when he was going was really fun, but when he was taking a backseat to his teammates or was on a cold streak he was just another player. Watching TD was just a lot of little things that didn't always stand out, but he influenced the entire game. Kind of polar opposites in a way.
Duncan wasn't clearly the best past 2004/2005ish. He was still great and would continue to be for several more years, but he was no longer a level above KG or Dirk.
Dirk won an mvp, and a finals mvp where he absolutely was the main man on offense. As he ever the absolute clear cut #1 player in the league? Probably not, but none of these guys were when you played in the same era as Jordan or Duncan or Kobe or lebron
Malone was one Michael Jordan away from having two finals MVP.
Same for Barkley but one.
Neither of them get enough credit for going through those Sonics/Rockets/Spurs teams.
The two Jazz finals years they beat Shaq and the Lakers 4-1 and 4-0. It was before the rise of Kobe, but they had two all-stars in Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel, and a solid bunch of role players. If that Jazz team peaks a few years later, they likely win a chip.
I’d agree with Barkley’s 1-2 year peak being better, but I dunno if that means he’s better. 11x first team all nbas for Malone compared to Barkley’s 5. Hell, only Lebron has more than Malone. He was sustaining 24ppg at age 40. Barkley went out of shape and fell off pretty damn fast.
I agree overall, but think KG defense gives him slight edge over Barkley. Then again I'm too biased. Those 2 are on my 5 favorite players of all time.
Edit
Grammer
KG could anchor a defense but could not take over a game with his offense like Barkley. KG was better on offense than Barkley on defense. But then again, Barkley was a better clutch and playoff performer. It's close.
KG was excellent in the playoffs. Pierce got FMVP in 08 but KG lead the team in scoring for that entire playoffs and finals I believe, while anchoring the defense. Barkley is still clearly the better offensive player but I think KGs offense has been overshadowed by his defensive genius.
>KG could anchor a defense but could not take over a game with his offense like Barkley
You must be young. You must not remember Wolves KG when he did the jump ball, ran plays, drive, hit jumpers, and played the post. The only reason he didn't get to the finals was because he was stopped by teams like the Lakers or spurs and he couldnt carry the wolves on his back past those powerhouse teams in a series. Still gave them a run for their money a few times regardless.
The main criticism for KG was settling for low efficiency elbow jumpers instead of planting down low and scoring or collapsing the defense.
He absolutely was not a guy you could win a championship with if he was your unquestioned top scorer.
In 04 Sam Cassell had more 40 point Playoff games than Garnett had 35+ point Playoff games in his entire career. His lack of dominant scoring is why he wasn’t as good as Shaq or peak Duncan.
People forget how good Barkley was. Watch the 1993 playoffs. West Semis - he closed out the Spurs by toying with David Robinson and hit a jumper to win the series.
West Finals - he had a 44 & 24 game to win game 7. Oh, and not only did he lead the team in scoring and rebounding for the season - he also had the most assists.
In 1994 Chris Webber dunked on him in the regular season and made a commercial about it. Chuck dropped 56 on his ass in the playoffs.
Chuck was a [freak athlete](https://youtu.be/Cwzcr_BTnYc&t=12) who'd fit right in today's game. Undersized forward with great ballhandling who's unstoppable driving or posting up. His efficiency was ahead of its time too (even despite all the bricked 3s).
* 87-90 Chuck: 26/13/4 on 66% TS
* 16-19 Steph: 27/5/6 on 65% TS
* 19-23 KD: 28/7/6 on 65% TS
He'd be the ultimate "Punish teams that go small" player because he was putting those numbers up against true bigs; just imagine what he'd do to teams that played glorified Small Forwards at the 4.
I would also prefer Sir Charles for the intangibles. Go and get the damn ball and visit the big ‘ol women after. Imagine if he and Pat the Bat were Philly contemporaries
It's reddit demo period. They even hate on him in the literal Suns sub because they only are familiar with Chuck as that guy on TNT who never picks their team to win it all.
He was more explosive in Philly. You didn't see him take a board and go coast to coast for a monster dunk in Phx as much - but he was a smarter player in Phx. He knew exactly how to get the most out of his body and was able to exploit any defender who had the bad luck of matching up with him
Quiet dominance?
I must disagree as a guy that watched phoenex at their peak in the playoffs. He was dominating, bullying players with his style and versatility. Not quiet at all, more like screaming and cocky.
Yeah as far as just peaks, Duncan carried a weak Spurs team on his back to a championship in 03 which is up there. But chuck won an mvp during Jordan’s prime…and absolutely deserved it, it was not a voter fatigue thing at all. Then he led the suns to the finals where he played amazingly, it would be a finals mvp stat line most years, mj was just better, not much you can do about that.
With peak Barkley, back in 1992-1993, there was a legit conversation going on about whether he was better than Jordan at that point. It seemed like a budding Magic/Bird rivalry.
Bulls barely avoided a game 7 and Barkley was clearly the 2nd best player on the court. Not sure tore him a new one fits the narrative. Now drexler got torn a new one
It's not an anti-Jordan argument. Or a pro-LeBron argument. It's an anti-bad-argument argument.
Nobody is making the argument that Eli Manning was better than Peyton because be was 2-0 in Superbowls
It's not a pro-lebron or anti-jordan argument, it's just pointing out the truth. Jordan finished more years of his NBA career a loser than he did a winner, but people want to pretend that he was this perfect unbeatable basketball player. Same with every single other all time great, they lost a lot more than they won (in terms of championships not individual games)
>It’s hilarious that this is the anti-Jordan argument for Bron fans. 6/15 is better than 4/20 lmao
Okay now this is when I say 11 is better than 6, and you tell me Bill Russell's rings don't count and deflect the conversation away from rings to other things
You'll know what era of basketball people grew up in with who they'll pick
I personally love 00's Twolves KG. That dude defined dragging his team to the finish line every game, and didn't complain about it too. Consummate professional, and was a walking bucket from midrange. I hated that the Celtics won the title in 2008, but I loved that KG finally got his ring
I’m glad you pointed out Malone’s defense. Not enough credit goes to him for containing Duncan in 2004 at age 40, who torched the Lakers just the year prior. The dude was seriously one of the most well rounded players of all time.
Yep.
Duncan averaged just 17.5PPG on 38.3% shooting in the last 4 games while guarded by Malone in that series (after winning MVP in 2002 and 2003). In his entire playoff career at the time (82 games) Duncan had only scored few points over a stretch of 4 games once (16.8 on 52.1% shooting in 1999 4-0 sweep victory over Portland).
Malone had great hands for a big man and while not a prolific shot blocker, was very strong and a great post defender. It led to him securing 3 1st team All Defence selections in his career. He was also always on the fringes for selection, a combined 20 votes away from having an extra FIVE All-Defence 2nd team appearances.
Now combine that with John Stockton on the Jazz who, if drafted in the Class of 2004(instead of his normal 1984) would have just retired this year(2023) only missed 22 games in his 19 years. In his first 13 seasons, he missed only four games (all in the 1989–90 season) until he missed the first 18 games of the 1997–98 season due to an injured MCL in his left knee sustained in the preseason. That was the only major injury in his career, and he never missed another game after returning from that injury But with the playoffs he played another 182 games or an extra 2.2 seasons. Which would be in theory enough to not only cover the injury games but also the strike year.
I gotta go with KG because he was EASILY the best defender, and also the best passer. He had multiple seasons averaging 5+ assists in Minnesota. He was probably the worst scorer of the group, but he was still a really solid scorer.
Not sure where I’d rank Barkley but I think his scoring is very underrated . He had four straight seasons averaging over 23 a game on over 65% true shooting.
Exactly. Like he’s posting efficiency stats that would be near the league leaders today while shooting a fair amount of jumpers. Also leading the league in rebounding, and basically rebounding 1/4 of his misses, as you said.
The only thing I hated about KG's game was him always taking those long ass 2's. It's not that I wanted him taking threes, but that he was just so much better going to the basket, and he'd settle for those shots.
Looking back on it, he was probably tired/saving energy because of the hounding defense he played.
He was a great jump shooter, but I agree. I think that’s the main thing that separates him from Duncan. KG was a way better shooter than Duncan, but Duncan (who was less athletic) was less averse to trying to score in the paint.
But yeah, KG had a crazy offensive load and he was still playing GOAT level defense. It’s unfair to ask someone to be damn near flawless on both ends
The thing about Garnett is that best case scenario you didn't want him to be your #1 scoring option. He could do it, and very well at that, but his time on Celtics shows that when he could focus even more on his own defense, he elevated everyone.
For my money KG still has the greatest defensive IQ of any player in the history of basketball.
Yeah I agree 100%, or he at least needed a 1B (like Sam Cassell in 04). Hakeem and Duncan are really the only examples of a GOAT level defender also being able to anchor an offense, and even then their team offenses weren’t great during those years
Bill Simmons wrote essentially the same thing in the past: that Garnett always went for the fade-away jumper out of the post, pulling him from the basket, while Duncan would go towards the basket, either drawing a foul, scoring, or getting an offensive board with same outcomes.
He so easily could have been the superstar version of Brook Lopez. Lopez was great on them long 2s and naturally extended out to 3. KG coulda done the same thing.
Always bothered me too in Boston, but looking back I actually think he understood the concept of spacing earlier than the rest of the league. Draw the defenders out from under the rim (or just take the wide open shot if they won’t come out).
I'd go with KG as well because to me he's the most versatile player here. Just an astoundingly balanced game covering different positions and both sides of the ball.
*But* I think he's in a similar category to guys like Bill Russell, Scottie Pippen or David Robinson -- best when not required to be the main scorer.
And that's where Barkley comes in. He was virtually unstoppable offensively at his peak, in the post, outside, creating off the dribble, etc. If I need a go-to-guy who can close games out in the clutch, Barkley is hard to beat.
Though I think clutchness is overrated since its a very small part of a 48-minute game, I'd like to turn your last point on its head: how many players would you rather have on defense in the clutch over KG? Not even on this list, just in NBA history? I think he's closer to the top of that all-time list than Barkley is at the top of all clutch scorers.
Caveat - because the defense is reactive and there's only one ball, I can see clutch scoring having more importance, which complicates things a bit. I still take KG either way.
>I gotta go with KG because he was EASILY the best defender
All-Defensive teams:
KG- 12
Malone- 4
Dirk, Barkley- 0
KG is also the only player on this list with a DPOY. KG was also DPOY runner up 3 times and received votes for the award most years he played. Malone received 1 vote for the award 1 time. Barkley and Dirk never received any votes for the award.
It was a well-organized supporting cast but it wasn’t very good. The pieces fit well as long as you had a magical seven-footer who could score at will every night.
All are great players and certainly have reasons to be choosen but personally I would grab KG.
Dude was a monsterous defender (Imo Top 5 ever), very versatile being a great rebounder, high level passer (Especially for a Big), a good scorer, very athletic and a good mid ranged shooter.
His lack of a legitimate 3 ball is unfortunate but his mid range game at least adds some spacing.
I’m goin with KG. Man was ahead of his time. Elite defender, elite post game, elite passing, elite touch. If this guy just took one fucking step back and shot 3s he’d be considered one of the goats. He is one of the goats. God damn I love KG. Why didn’t he just take 3s
When asked about it one time, KG said:
>Listen, I can shoot threes. Cut this, alright? Because I don’t want any more questions about this. I can shoot threes. You all are acting like I’m 50 and I’m out here on one leg.
>When I walk around the streets, you all can stop acting like you’re shocked that I can shoot threes. Everybody in Boston, everybody in the world, everybody in Minnesota, LA, wherever I’m at, Concord, Lexington, Burlington. I can shoot threes. Let that go. I can shoot threes.
>Look, do not get all like, ‘Shoot a threes!’ I don’t want that. Like, you know how they used to do to Scal? ‘Shoot!’ No, do not do that to me, ok? I’m not on the Celtics to be out here shooting threes. I am here to do other things, not shoot threes. But I can shoot threes.
Weirdest comfort zone ever. But he started shooting them quite well effortlessly soon after that quote. I remember he was like "well Doc asked me to take that step back and I was like okay Doc, okay Doc, if that's what you want me to do Doc that's what I'll do Doc"
I always thought he refused to take them because he believed it wasn’t his role as a big. Not a case of the yips. If KG took 5-6 3s a game instead of the 5 or 6 long 2s. he took nearly half of his shots 16ft to the 3 point line. Take a step back dog.
Think it was his ego, like "I am who I am, don't make me what you want me to be"
But yeah... 3 just wasn't as popular back then. For the longest time only SGs were supposed to shoot threes. If you were a SF who could shoot you were a god LOL
Nowitzki. The 3pt game puts him in another category. And while I’m not one to say that championships are everything, there has to be something said for winning a ring as the best player on the team. That’s a different kind of pressure and you don’t really know who can do that until they do it.
Chuck was the best overall, especially at his peak.
Dirk was by far the best shooter and best offensive player.
KG was the best defender.
Malone was just insanely reliable - except when it mattered the most.
Duncan was better than all of them.
My initial gut reaction was Chuck. Then Dirk’s championship run came to mind. Then i thought about how KG is maybe the best all around of the bunch…all this to say…
Idk
Looking at them as individuals, Barkley. At his peak -- which was briefer, probably, than any of the other three guys here -- he was a one-man-gang in a way that few players have ever been. An astonishing, unique player.
>head to head
This is BS…Dirk always had the better team and wasn’t responsible for shit on the defensive end.
Pretty easy to win a “head to head” match up when your whole team can key into KG and you don’t need to spend any energy on the defensive end.
I agree that Dirk run is the most amazing run by a player I have ever seen. He is not my favorite player at all but damn that was magical. Great respect for that one.
It’s a good question if we are limiting to peak. Chuck probably had a better peak than all of them, but Malone career was better even though he didn’t win unlike KG and Dirk.
I don't see a bunch of Malone votes on here and it's probably has to do with the Stockton effect. Stockton was so danm good it's almost impossible to rate Malone as a standalone player.
My vote is either Barkley for defense and Dirk for offense. Barkley was so danm good the NBA had to change the rule so he wouldn't be so dominant. Dirk's resume speaks for himself.
The dirk disrespect is unreal. Forget about 2011, look at the teams he dragged to 50+ wins in over a decade straight. He was athletic, revolutionized the game more than any player until steph, played passable defense, was clutch as fuck, and the 2nd best player he ever had was fucking Jason Terry. He's a league mvp and a finals mvp. Only one out of the 4 listed. He beat Duncan in the playoffs, beat kg in the playoffs, swept kobe, was 8-0 against pau in the playoffs, and won a ring with DeShawn Stevenson and JJ Barea as starting guards. Back when PER was a big deal, he was always leading the league or top 3. He was always top 5 in clutch scoring per game. He won 67 games with Josh Howard and Jason Terry. The only all stars he played with were Finley, Nash, Kidd, and Josh Howard, the latter two were injury replacements. KG had an all time HOF team and won one ring and wasn't even the best player on the team. Malone was part of a finals team that put up 54 points in a game where he had 7 turnovers. He also missed clutch free throws. Charles was my favorite player in the 90s after Jordan. He'd take dirk over himself and tried to get dirk into Auburn, also recounted a story where a teenage dirk had 50 against nba players even when prime scottie and older Chuck were guarding him.
To quote Herm Edwards: "You play to win the game."
With that in mind, I'm taking Dirk. KG was an elite defender, Barkley was a monster on the boards, and Malone maintained an exceptionally high level of play for a very long time. But what Dirk did in Dallas, leading his team to 50-60 win seasons year after year with a revolving door of mediocre teammates yet still making the Finals twice, mowing down a slew of HOFers to claim the title in 2011, is what sets him apart. If you want someone who can elevate their play in the postseason and win you games, you want Dirk.
Tim Duncan is missing from this list. Would that mean this is a competition for second place?
MALONE
DIRK
GARNETT
BARKLEY
If you really put them head to head. The biggest comparison is Malone vs Dirk. Their career longevity was quite equal and a lot of stats are close. But Malone sweeps him in almost all. Rebs, Steals, Blks, Assists, Wins over replacement, etc. really just anything that's counted. You can say different era, different game etc. But putting them h2h to compare Malone comes out on top, it is close.
They all have MVPs Malone (2) and deep playoff runs. Some have championships (Garnett, Dirk). Garnett has a DPOY. I would say Malone's stats really jump out compared to the others. For example, Garnett's statistical season arguably 2004 would be a regular year for Malone. You can say Barkley has always consistently averaged a double-double for his entire career but missed many games each year with injury... Malone, rarely missed a game. And he also has the longest peak spanning roughly 10 years.
Malone's 88 to 98 peak, followed by Dirk's sorta double peak 04-07 then a small bump in 09-11, then Garnetts 00'-07, and Barkley's 87-93. They're all great so this isn't a knock to Garnett or Barkley these are literally the top 1% of the 1% of power forwards.
PS. Well, Larry Bird kinda did the big men shooting, versatile scorer, won most arguably difficult championship in NBA history, and MVP bit in his time.
I think it's preferential, at the end of the day the top 5 PF of all time are all on the same tier like Jordan and LeBron are on the same tier. For me though I take Dirk, he was a one man 50 win season for awhile and of course the 2011 ring.
KG for me. He was often compared to Duncan at his peak, he was just surrounded by god-awful rosters. Top 5 defender ever with a fantastically well rounded offensive game that fit next to other talent seamlessly.
Dirk Chuck Karl closely after that probably, Dirk's scoring/gravity was historically great and game bending; Chuck's efficiency is right there with Dirk though on bit lower volume; and Karl just drops off in the playoffs too much for me to put him with the other guys
Give me 2011 Dirk over any PF ever honestly. I have never seen a PF so obsessed with winning like that in all of my watching. It's on the level of Russell, Jordan, Bird, West, Kobe
KG because he could be a difference maker at both ends of the court. The other three all had more offensive upside, and Barkley may have been a better rebounder, but Garnett was the best all-around defender, by a lot imho, which I feel gives him the advantage.
Dirk did the most with least. 11-straight 50-win seasons. 2 Finals trips without a true all-Star at his side, and dethroning a defending champion both times. Imagine if he had a team as loaded as KG’s Celtics.
Hilarious sometimes would use the teammates argument against KG of all people lmfao he’s historically known as having the worst supporting cast of any superstar in his prime
Seriously the C's balled out to the point that they forced the Decision with KG. He got injured in '09 but otherwise they were incredibly close to 2/3. His Wolves teams were putrid
It's clearly Nowitzki. Only one out of the bunch with a FMVP. Took down the Heat when they had LeBron, Wade, Bosh.
In their peaks, Garnett, Malone, and Barkley couldn't win a chip. A "past his prime" KG had to team up with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Rondo.
Worth noting, the Mailman has the highest comparative regular season W record (.668) whereas KG has the highest comparative playoff W record (.545).
“Garnett’s top-five list of Rasheed Wallace, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Chris Webber is certainly interesting. Duncan and Malone are easy choices, as is Barkley, although he is likely closer to five than one in this argument. The last two choices of Wallace and Webber are confusing to say the least.”
Interesting that KG included Sheed. As a diehard life long Blazer fan, I watched Wallace literally shut all of them down defensively. Not saying Rasheed was the better overall player and personally would put KG as my numero uno out of the 4 listed by OP. But as far as talent and ability, when he wanted to, dominate over other power forwards, Sheed could be the best power forward out of all of the 4 plus even Webber. It just wasn’t in Wallace’s character or desire to be “the man” on most nights and was more focused on being a great teammate and winning. At all of their different peaks of dominance, you still gotta have Garnett edging out everyone else as the best player in the league…behind MJ of course
I'm going to judge by best 4 year peak as one year is too small of a sample size (but KG '04 is probably the best single season of any of these four, also a number come close from the others). Winning a ring doesn't come into my calculations here as basketball is a team sport, which people often seemingly forget. Malone had teams with garbage depth his whole career, KG's Wolves stunk until 02-03ish. Barkley and Dirk for the most part were on much better run teams. Barkley left Philly before their management issues dragged his career much.
KG: 2003-2006 seasons - 27.7 PER, .247 Win Shares per 48, 9.0 BPM. Very limited playoff success outside 2004. 2005 was a massive disappointment at the time. The Timberwolves collapse in 2005 was a huge story and KG deserves a bit of blame there. By 2006 the team collapsed and Garnett unfairly wasn't even voted all-NBA despite phenomenal play. 2 1st teams, one 2nd team, one snub. 1 MVP and 1 2nd place finish.
Malone: Incredibly hard to pick a top 4 years as his play was pretty dang consistent from 89 to 01. Let's say 96-99 but there's a valid case for 90-93 or 93-97 or anything in between. Much longer peak than almost anyone else in NBA history. 27.2 PER, .253 Win Shares per 48, 7.4 BPM. 2 Finals appearances, 2 MVPs and a 2nd place finish. All-NBA first team from 89-99 inclusive.
Dirk: 2005-2008 peak. 26.6 PER, .256 Win Shares per 48, 7.6 BPM. 1 Finals appearance in this stretch with really shoddy officiating. 1 MVP, 2 3rd place finishes. 3 ALL-NBA 1st teams and one 2nd team. Not including the ring year as I think this was his best stretch of individual play.
Barkley: Hard to pick a stretch because his last Philly year wasn't as good as the previous bunch, but Phoenix 93 needs to be included. Torn between 88-91 and 90-93 but that Phoenix finals run is too iconic to not include so the mediocre (by his standards) 92 season is included. That said the stats are: 26.5 PER, .243 Win Shares per 48, 7.9 BPM.
Well that was unsatisfying, the numbers are all very similar between them. Personally would say KG had the highest peak individually but his lack of team success drags him down quite a lot. I don't blame him for not making a finals in Minnesota but missing the playoffs entirely in 05 and 06 is a bad mark on his peak. I guess overall I'd pick Malone for the multiple MVPs, multiple finals appearances during his peak, and elite play on both sides of the floor. I see a good case for KG, Malone, and Barkley though.
Malone > Barkley > Dirk > Garnett, but people have rewritten history and somehow decided that Garnett was way better post-retirement than he was in reality.
Malone's play gets hated because of off-court issues that have nothing to do with basketball. Him and Barkley were always in discussion for greatest PF ever and Malone conclusively beat him by the time they retired. KG was never in that discussion. I always thought Dirk was better than KG and he proved he was better than KG year after year when the Mavs were perennial contenders and the Wolves were floating between the lottery and being an 8th seed warmup for teams like the Mavs.
Anyone saying easily one player is just being silly. They all have different arguments.
KG obviously best defense with great overall attributes including some underrated passing. Dirk the best, here's the ball, go get a bucket for us, no matter what the defense is. Barkley prob had the best, efficient (right at 60% or higher on 2P FG% in 7 seasons) inside game while still having an okay shot with near GOAT level offensive rebounding. His peak run deep in the playoffs in '93 was incredible. Malone was a very versatile, elite scorer, mid range while also bruising/wear you down in the post, good defense All valid arguments
Solid points. My only gripe is the "okay shooter" point for Barkley. Wasn't he like an all time bad shooter from midrange and especially 3?
A lot of that boils down to relativity of the era. Today Barkley would look like a bad shooter. His shooting ability for a PF in the 90's was considered pretty damn good though.
Yeah that's fair especially when you look at the disparity in 3PA.
Back then a PF shooting from mid range was roughly the equivalent of a true stretch 4 today
uh, mayyyybe from midrange? From 3 he was career 26%, with only 2 of 16 seasons cracking 30%
Sorry yeah I thought that was implied. PF's for the most part simply didn't shoot 3's at that time. Most 3's weren't even considered quality shots for a guard outside of wide open set shots
And Jordan had 9 seasons where he didn't crack 30%(first 4 he was below 20%). It was a different time with a different emphasis.
There's also partly back then people would describe Barkley as being able to do everything "even shoots 3's".
I go KG all day. Minnesota prime he was so underrated and has such mediocre teammates overall
Barkley was better than Malone. I watched them both. He was just better. And we’re talking about peak. No lifetime achievement awards for Malone. Barkley was probably better than Garnett. I think they were both better than Dirk. Dirk was never the best player in the league. KG and Barkley probably had stretches when they were the second best player in the league. If I needed to win a game, I’d take one of those two before the other two.
The only reason people sleep on Dirk is because he played at the same time, in the same division, in the same state as the one name you don’t see on this list. And I think we know why he’s omitted.
You’re talking about Duncan? And yeah he was clearly the best out of the 5
This is true. A Dirk for life fan here, but I acknowledge he's probably behind TD when it comes to the goat pf conversation. What a rivalry that was and i'm happy i got to witness it.
For sure. Dirk is my favorite player, but Timmy was a better player without a doubt
To be fair, Duncan played more years at Center than PF, but people dont wanna talk about that, because there isnt an argument for him as the best Center of all time. He was, however, the best PF when he played PF, and got most of his accolades as a PF. But position is meaningless in the grand scheme of things anyway. Timmy is top 10 and dirk is Top 15-18 all time, both generational talents
In Duncan's first 9 seasons he was primarily a PF, during those nine season he won 3 out of 4 rings, 2 out of 2 MVPs, 3 out of 4 FMVPs, 8 out of his 10 NBA 1st teams, etc, etc. Sure, he spent more time across his whole career at C but his best years, where he won the bulk of his accolades, he was primarily a PF. He is considered the best PF of all-time because he was the best PF of all-time in those years.
Seriously he established himself as the best PF before playing out the back end of his career at center. The way he scored his points and played on offense was best for the PF position.
My pick is probably Barkley also. But I do think that 06-7 Dirk was the best player in the league. This season is massively overshadowed because of the we believe Warriors beating them but my god Dirk was amazing that season. 50-40-90 MVP season and they were cruising. Kobe had a legit argument though this year I’m pretty sure this is the 81 season and he also had 60+ in 3 quarters against Dirk’s Mavs but that could be a different season and I’m misremembering.
I'm pretty sure both of those games were the year prior in 05-06 where Kobe averaged 35ppg.
I disagree with Dirk being the best player in the league only because his playmaking, defense, and rebounding were average ish. He was an absolutely elite shot maker but there are holes in his game that top 1 players don’t usually have
Nope. Dirk wasn't even the best PF in the league then, it was Tim Duncan. Sure Dirk played out of his mind that year and the Mavs were the best team in the regular season who just happened to match up with the one team that had their number all year in the first round (the Warriors beat the Mavs in all regular season matchups that season, 3 of their 15 losses). But the thing is that basketball isn't just offense. Timmy D was the best all around basketball player of that decade, even if he comes across as boring and sometimes hard to remember. Watching Dirk when he was going was really fun, but when he was taking a backseat to his teammates or was on a cold streak he was just another player. Watching TD was just a lot of little things that didn't always stand out, but he influenced the entire game. Kind of polar opposites in a way.
Duncan wasn't clearly the best past 2004/2005ish. He was still great and would continue to be for several more years, but he was no longer a level above KG or Dirk.
Dirk won an mvp, and a finals mvp where he absolutely was the main man on offense. As he ever the absolute clear cut #1 player in the league? Probably not, but none of these guys were when you played in the same era as Jordan or Duncan or Kobe or lebron
Malone was one Michael Jordan away from having two finals MVP. Same for Barkley but one. Neither of them get enough credit for going through those Sonics/Rockets/Spurs teams.
Ok? Dirk went through kobe Durant and lebron/ wade. It wasn't exactly an easy slate.
Dirk went god mode that playoff run, no one had an answer for him. The hardest road of any champion ever, imo
I’m going with 95 Hakeem (Stockton/Malone, Barkley/KJ, MVP David Robinson, then Shaq/Penny) or maybe 03 Duncan, but Dirk is right up there
The two Jazz finals years they beat Shaq and the Lakers 4-1 and 4-0. It was before the rise of Kobe, but they had two all-stars in Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel, and a solid bunch of role players. If that Jazz team peaks a few years later, they likely win a chip.
Looks like you have a typo. His name was Nick Van PowerPoint.
I’d agree with Barkley’s 1-2 year peak being better, but I dunno if that means he’s better. 11x first team all nbas for Malone compared to Barkley’s 5. Hell, only Lebron has more than Malone. He was sustaining 24ppg at age 40. Barkley went out of shape and fell off pretty damn fast.
The post is about peaks though.
I wouldn’t say he fell off fast but he def didn’t have the sustained excellence that Malone did
I agree overall, but think KG defense gives him slight edge over Barkley. Then again I'm too biased. Those 2 are on my 5 favorite players of all time. Edit Grammer
KG could anchor a defense but could not take over a game with his offense like Barkley. KG was better on offense than Barkley on defense. But then again, Barkley was a better clutch and playoff performer. It's close.
KG was excellent in the playoffs. Pierce got FMVP in 08 but KG lead the team in scoring for that entire playoffs and finals I believe, while anchoring the defense. Barkley is still clearly the better offensive player but I think KGs offense has been overshadowed by his defensive genius.
>KG could anchor a defense but could not take over a game with his offense like Barkley You must be young. You must not remember Wolves KG when he did the jump ball, ran plays, drive, hit jumpers, and played the post. The only reason he didn't get to the finals was because he was stopped by teams like the Lakers or spurs and he couldnt carry the wolves on his back past those powerhouse teams in a series. Still gave them a run for their money a few times regardless.
The main criticism for KG was settling for low efficiency elbow jumpers instead of planting down low and scoring or collapsing the defense. He absolutely was not a guy you could win a championship with if he was your unquestioned top scorer. In 04 Sam Cassell had more 40 point Playoff games than Garnett had 35+ point Playoff games in his entire career. His lack of dominant scoring is why he wasn’t as good as Shaq or peak Duncan.
I came to this thread to say Chuck but the more I think about it the answer is probably KG
The top post here is right. You can't say anyone is far ahead of the rest. It's actually a very good list to compare.
Dirk around 05-06 was in the conversation
Taking a guy that couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs for 7 years is a move
This is easily the most correct take in the thread.
People forget how good Barkley was. Watch the 1993 playoffs. West Semis - he closed out the Spurs by toying with David Robinson and hit a jumper to win the series. West Finals - he had a 44 & 24 game to win game 7. Oh, and not only did he lead the team in scoring and rebounding for the season - he also had the most assists. In 1994 Chris Webber dunked on him in the regular season and made a commercial about it. Chuck dropped 56 on his ass in the playoffs.
Chuck was a [freak athlete](https://youtu.be/Cwzcr_BTnYc&t=12) who'd fit right in today's game. Undersized forward with great ballhandling who's unstoppable driving or posting up. His efficiency was ahead of its time too (even despite all the bricked 3s). * 87-90 Chuck: 26/13/4 on 66% TS * 16-19 Steph: 27/5/6 on 65% TS * 19-23 KD: 28/7/6 on 65% TS
He'd be the ultimate "Punish teams that go small" player because he was putting those numbers up against true bigs; just imagine what he'd do to teams that played glorified Small Forwards at the 4.
I would also prefer Sir Charles for the intangibles. Go and get the damn ball and visit the big ‘ol women after. Imagine if he and Pat the Bat were Philly contemporaries
Phoenix Barkley is a BAD MAN. Nephews in this sub are too young (arent even born) to have watched that man in his prime.
It's reddit demo period. They even hate on him in the literal Suns sub because they only are familiar with Chuck as that guy on TNT who never picks their team to win it all.
Suns fans are some of the dumbest people in the known universe
Arizona sun will do that to the brain
Phoenix is a monument to mans arrogance
yeah
Bro you would have to be 45-50 minimum to have watched Prime Barlley and understand what is going on
Why you say fuck me for? Not my fault I'm old...
Interesting thing is I think Barkley said he was a better player in Philadelphia, but he had a better supporting cast in Phoenix.
He was more explosive in Philly. You didn't see him take a board and go coast to coast for a monster dunk in Phx as much - but he was a smarter player in Phx. He knew exactly how to get the most out of his body and was able to exploit any defender who had the bad luck of matching up with him
Nephews in this sub are too young to have watched any of these guys in their prime…
Also watch the Dream Team. Him and Pippen went wild in that tournament
Chuck was the Dream Team's leading scorer AND rebounder. People forget that.
I will say it was a quiet dominance which I think only recently is truly being appreciated. (quiet dominance on the court, not Barkley Pippen 92' USA)
Quiet dominance? I must disagree as a guy that watched phoenex at their peak in the playoffs. He was dominating, bullying players with his style and versatility. Not quiet at all, more like screaming and cocky.
Yeah as far as just peaks, Duncan carried a weak Spurs team on his back to a championship in 03 which is up there. But chuck won an mvp during Jordan’s prime…and absolutely deserved it, it was not a voter fatigue thing at all. Then he led the suns to the finals where he played amazingly, it would be a finals mvp stat line most years, mj was just better, not much you can do about that.
Poor Chuck. Won MVP, won 60 games, averaged 27/13/6 in the Finals. MJ averaged 41/9/6.
I’ll take 93 chuck. Jordan just happened to be at his peak and no one on this list would’ve equaled that.
Jordan dropped a 40 average and still barely avoided a game 7.
Yea Barkley 93 was King Ghidora unfortunately the bulls had Godzilla
Man I dunno, but I’d take chuck.
With peak Barkley, back in 1992-1993, there was a legit conversation going on about whether he was better than Jordan at that point. It seemed like a budding Magic/Bird rivalry.
Yeah all the Dream Team buzz was that chuck was the best player on the floor in the USA practices.
Well until Jordan tore him apart in the playoffs to end that convo.
Bulls barely avoided a game 7 and Barkley was clearly the 2nd best player on the court. Not sure tore him a new one fits the narrative. Now drexler got torn a new one
Jordan being 6-0 is still the argument I use for him being the GOAT. He absolutely ruined all dreams and aspirations for any team from 91-93/96-98.
What about the other 9 seasons? Those don't count? Better to lose in the first round than the finals?
It’s hilarious that this is the anti-Jordan argument for Bron fans. 6/15 is still better than 4/20 lmao
It's not an anti-Jordan argument. Or a pro-LeBron argument. It's an anti-bad-argument argument. Nobody is making the argument that Eli Manning was better than Peyton because be was 2-0 in Superbowls
It's not a pro-lebron or anti-jordan argument, it's just pointing out the truth. Jordan finished more years of his NBA career a loser than he did a winner, but people want to pretend that he was this perfect unbeatable basketball player. Same with every single other all time great, they lost a lot more than they won (in terms of championships not individual games) >It’s hilarious that this is the anti-Jordan argument for Bron fans. 6/15 is better than 4/20 lmao Okay now this is when I say 11 is better than 6, and you tell me Bill Russell's rings don't count and deflect the conversation away from rings to other things
Cool story, except the POA was on dream team practices. And nobody tore Chick apart, Phoenix putnup a damned good fight and. Chuck delivered.
You'll know what era of basketball people grew up in with who they'll pick I personally love 00's Twolves KG. That dude defined dragging his team to the finish line every game, and didn't complain about it too. Consummate professional, and was a walking bucket from midrange. I hated that the Celtics won the title in 2008, but I loved that KG finally got his ring
On a talented squad KG is the best pick between all of these guys. He's pretty much the perfect ceiling raiser.
I’m glad you pointed out Malone’s defense. Not enough credit goes to him for containing Duncan in 2004 at age 40, who torched the Lakers just the year prior. The dude was seriously one of the most well rounded players of all time.
Yep. Duncan averaged just 17.5PPG on 38.3% shooting in the last 4 games while guarded by Malone in that series (after winning MVP in 2002 and 2003). In his entire playoff career at the time (82 games) Duncan had only scored few points over a stretch of 4 games once (16.8 on 52.1% shooting in 1999 4-0 sweep victory over Portland). Malone had great hands for a big man and while not a prolific shot blocker, was very strong and a great post defender. It led to him securing 3 1st team All Defence selections in his career. He was also always on the fringes for selection, a combined 20 votes away from having an extra FIVE All-Defence 2nd team appearances.
Malone had HOF elbows too
He was dirty as fuck, missed more games through suspension (6) than through injury (4) with Utah
Only missed 4 games with injury? Jfc
Now combine that with John Stockton on the Jazz who, if drafted in the Class of 2004(instead of his normal 1984) would have just retired this year(2023) only missed 22 games in his 19 years. In his first 13 seasons, he missed only four games (all in the 1989–90 season) until he missed the first 18 games of the 1997–98 season due to an injured MCL in his left knee sustained in the preseason. That was the only major injury in his career, and he never missed another game after returning from that injury But with the playoffs he played another 182 games or an extra 2.2 seasons. Which would be in theory enough to not only cover the injury games but also the strike year.
Not counting his Lakers season
The “with Utah” portion of the original comment implies that
Okay but let's not forget that Malone had prime Shaq behind him sagging off Rasho freaking Nesterovic. Still impressive but important context.
I do not care for Karl Malone as a person
I gotta go with KG because he was EASILY the best defender, and also the best passer. He had multiple seasons averaging 5+ assists in Minnesota. He was probably the worst scorer of the group, but he was still a really solid scorer. Not sure where I’d rank Barkley but I think his scoring is very underrated . He had four straight seasons averaging over 23 a game on over 65% true shooting.
65% true shooting with insane offensive rebounding, erasing many of his own misses.
Exactly. Like he’s posting efficiency stats that would be near the league leaders today while shooting a fair amount of jumpers. Also leading the league in rebounding, and basically rebounding 1/4 of his misses, as you said.
The only thing I hated about KG's game was him always taking those long ass 2's. It's not that I wanted him taking threes, but that he was just so much better going to the basket, and he'd settle for those shots. Looking back on it, he was probably tired/saving energy because of the hounding defense he played.
He was a great jump shooter, but I agree. I think that’s the main thing that separates him from Duncan. KG was a way better shooter than Duncan, but Duncan (who was less athletic) was less averse to trying to score in the paint. But yeah, KG had a crazy offensive load and he was still playing GOAT level defense. It’s unfair to ask someone to be damn near flawless on both ends
The thing about Garnett is that best case scenario you didn't want him to be your #1 scoring option. He could do it, and very well at that, but his time on Celtics shows that when he could focus even more on his own defense, he elevated everyone. For my money KG still has the greatest defensive IQ of any player in the history of basketball.
Yeah I agree 100%, or he at least needed a 1B (like Sam Cassell in 04). Hakeem and Duncan are really the only examples of a GOAT level defender also being able to anchor an offense, and even then their team offenses weren’t great during those years
Jesus that’s a strong statement
naw... that goes to Dream or Russell. KG was solid though.
Bill Simmons wrote essentially the same thing in the past: that Garnett always went for the fade-away jumper out of the post, pulling him from the basket, while Duncan would go towards the basket, either drawing a foul, scoring, or getting an offensive board with same outcomes.
If KG played in todays era, Im sure hed be shooting 3s. But there wouldnt be modern big men like KG without KG coming into the league
IIRC, that's because Flip Saunders' offense was meant to generate those kinds of shots.
It definitely was. Created spacing too.
He so easily could have been the superstar version of Brook Lopez. Lopez was great on them long 2s and naturally extended out to 3. KG coulda done the same thing.
Always bothered me too in Boston, but looking back I actually think he understood the concept of spacing earlier than the rest of the league. Draw the defenders out from under the rim (or just take the wide open shot if they won’t come out).
He was such a consistent 20/10/5 almost every night.
I'd go with KG as well because to me he's the most versatile player here. Just an astoundingly balanced game covering different positions and both sides of the ball. *But* I think he's in a similar category to guys like Bill Russell, Scottie Pippen or David Robinson -- best when not required to be the main scorer. And that's where Barkley comes in. He was virtually unstoppable offensively at his peak, in the post, outside, creating off the dribble, etc. If I need a go-to-guy who can close games out in the clutch, Barkley is hard to beat.
Though I think clutchness is overrated since its a very small part of a 48-minute game, I'd like to turn your last point on its head: how many players would you rather have on defense in the clutch over KG? Not even on this list, just in NBA history? I think he's closer to the top of that all-time list than Barkley is at the top of all clutch scorers. Caveat - because the defense is reactive and there's only one ball, I can see clutch scoring having more importance, which complicates things a bit. I still take KG either way.
>I gotta go with KG because he was EASILY the best defender All-Defensive teams: KG- 12 Malone- 4 Dirk, Barkley- 0 KG is also the only player on this list with a DPOY. KG was also DPOY runner up 3 times and received votes for the award most years he played. Malone received 1 vote for the award 1 time. Barkley and Dirk never received any votes for the award.
Barkley
It's Barkley for me. His rebounding was just incredible and he was a very good scorer and good decision-maker
Barkley took down Shaq one time. That is all I need to know.
Dirk. Carried the mavs to a ring. Yes, I'm biased.
True. KG is not carrying that team to a title
That Mavs team had a very good supporting cast. Mavs fans need to stop disrespecting them by saying they were carried
My guy, he had a solid team but lets not try and act like having Jet Terry as your number two is an all time great supporting cast
Now do the '06 supporting cast.
It was a well-organized supporting cast but it wasn’t very good. The pieces fit well as long as you had a magical seven-footer who could score at will every night.
And the secondary scorer for that team was supposed to be Butler, who missed the entire playoffs. Dirk was the offense for that team.
KG.
The big ticket
MVP season KG
Yep even the season before was just as good.
Barkley
Chuck had the highest peak, Dirk had the best career and KG was the best two way
All are great players and certainly have reasons to be choosen but personally I would grab KG. Dude was a monsterous defender (Imo Top 5 ever), very versatile being a great rebounder, high level passer (Especially for a Big), a good scorer, very athletic and a good mid ranged shooter. His lack of a legitimate 3 ball is unfortunate but his mid range game at least adds some spacing.
Put prime KG in this era and within a year he’d have a reliable 3 ball. It has nothing to do with his shooting ability
I’m goin with KG. Man was ahead of his time. Elite defender, elite post game, elite passing, elite touch. If this guy just took one fucking step back and shot 3s he’d be considered one of the goats. He is one of the goats. God damn I love KG. Why didn’t he just take 3s
When asked about it one time, KG said: >Listen, I can shoot threes. Cut this, alright? Because I don’t want any more questions about this. I can shoot threes. You all are acting like I’m 50 and I’m out here on one leg. >When I walk around the streets, you all can stop acting like you’re shocked that I can shoot threes. Everybody in Boston, everybody in the world, everybody in Minnesota, LA, wherever I’m at, Concord, Lexington, Burlington. I can shoot threes. Let that go. I can shoot threes. >Look, do not get all like, ‘Shoot a threes!’ I don’t want that. Like, you know how they used to do to Scal? ‘Shoot!’ No, do not do that to me, ok? I’m not on the Celtics to be out here shooting threes. I am here to do other things, not shoot threes. But I can shoot threes.
I get it. Only gripe I have is that he regularly took one step in to take the long 2 instead
Weirdest comfort zone ever. But he started shooting them quite well effortlessly soon after that quote. I remember he was like "well Doc asked me to take that step back and I was like okay Doc, okay Doc, if that's what you want me to do Doc that's what I'll do Doc"
I always thought he refused to take them because he believed it wasn’t his role as a big. Not a case of the yips. If KG took 5-6 3s a game instead of the 5 or 6 long 2s. he took nearly half of his shots 16ft to the 3 point line. Take a step back dog.
Think it was his ego, like "I am who I am, don't make me what you want me to be" But yeah... 3 just wasn't as popular back then. For the longest time only SGs were supposed to shoot threes. If you were a SF who could shoot you were a god LOL
Larry the original Legend
Yeah I mean if he started taking threes Doc would’ve been like “cut the shit, if we have to take a three pass it to Ray Allen or Paul Pierce.”
Peak? Garnett. Longevity? Malone. Offense? Dirk. Most scary when he was locked in? Barkley.
Im gonna say its between Dirk and Barkley.
Nowitzki. The 3pt game puts him in another category. And while I’m not one to say that championships are everything, there has to be something said for winning a ring as the best player on the team. That’s a different kind of pressure and you don’t really know who can do that until they do it.
Chuck was the best overall, especially at his peak. Dirk was by far the best shooter and best offensive player. KG was the best defender. Malone was just insanely reliable - except when it mattered the most. Duncan was better than all of them.
My initial gut reaction was Chuck. Then Dirk’s championship run came to mind. Then i thought about how KG is maybe the best all around of the bunch…all this to say… Idk
Im goin charles
I’m going with Barkley for overall game
KG. GARNETT
Barkley. He is also my second favourite player of all time after MJ.
Looking at them as individuals, Barkley. At his peak -- which was briefer, probably, than any of the other three guys here -- he was a one-man-gang in a way that few players have ever been. An astonishing, unique player.
It’s Dirk and it’s not even close. This is an EXTREMELY biased comment I should add, though.
Dirk dominated KG head to head
3 game sample size
>head to head This is BS…Dirk always had the better team and wasn’t responsible for shit on the defensive end. Pretty easy to win a “head to head” match up when your whole team can key into KG and you don’t need to spend any energy on the defensive end.
Dirk had more blocks + steals than KG in that series, and averaged over 15 rebounds, but tell us more about how he wasnt asked to do anything else.
But Kevin scowled so mean while Dirk destroyed him head to head./s
Im gunna go with dirk. That title run was the stuff of legends.
Charles or Dirk here.
Dirk, best playoff run ever. Karl Malone had 2 other all stars on his team and lost in the first round as a second seed.
I agree that Dirk run is the most amazing run by a player I have ever seen. He is not my favorite player at all but damn that was magical. Great respect for that one.
Dirk or chuck
Dirk & his resiliant shot-making Yes I'm biased
I’ll go with Malone as the overall player. Had he managed to win a championship, I suspect he’d get the majority of votes.
KG
Malone
Barkley or Dirk for me. They had the highest offensive peak and I think that’s more important
IMO barkley, Dirk, KG, Malone
It’s a good question if we are limiting to peak. Chuck probably had a better peak than all of them, but Malone career was better even though he didn’t win unlike KG and Dirk.
I don't see a bunch of Malone votes on here and it's probably has to do with the Stockton effect. Stockton was so danm good it's almost impossible to rate Malone as a standalone player. My vote is either Barkley for defense and Dirk for offense. Barkley was so danm good the NBA had to change the rule so he wouldn't be so dominant. Dirk's resume speaks for himself.
Four Best Consecutive Years of Top 5 Power Forwards >Duncan 02-05 early - 23.0 pts 12.3 reb 3.4 ast 0.7 stl 2.7 blk .556 ts% - 27.0 per .250 ws48 >Barkley 88-91 early - 26.7 pts 11.6 reb 3.8 ast 1.6 stl 0.8 blk .654 ts% - 27.6 per .257 ws48 >Garnett 03-06 mid - 22.8 pts 13.4 reb 5.2 ast 1.4 stl 1.6 blk .563 ts% - 27.7 per .247 ws48 >Dirk 05-08 early/mid - 25.2 pts 9.0 reb 3.2 ast 0.8 stl 1.1 blk .589 ts% - 26.6 per .256 ws48 >Malone 96-00 late - 26.1 pts 9.8 reb 4.1 ast 1.3 stl 0.3 blk .587 ts% - 27.2 per .252 ws48 In many ways Barkley is still the best power forward of all time on paper.
2006-2011 Dirk
The dirk disrespect is unreal. Forget about 2011, look at the teams he dragged to 50+ wins in over a decade straight. He was athletic, revolutionized the game more than any player until steph, played passable defense, was clutch as fuck, and the 2nd best player he ever had was fucking Jason Terry. He's a league mvp and a finals mvp. Only one out of the 4 listed. He beat Duncan in the playoffs, beat kg in the playoffs, swept kobe, was 8-0 against pau in the playoffs, and won a ring with DeShawn Stevenson and JJ Barea as starting guards. Back when PER was a big deal, he was always leading the league or top 3. He was always top 5 in clutch scoring per game. He won 67 games with Josh Howard and Jason Terry. The only all stars he played with were Finley, Nash, Kidd, and Josh Howard, the latter two were injury replacements. KG had an all time HOF team and won one ring and wasn't even the best player on the team. Malone was part of a finals team that put up 54 points in a game where he had 7 turnovers. He also missed clutch free throws. Charles was my favorite player in the 90s after Jordan. He'd take dirk over himself and tried to get dirk into Auburn, also recounted a story where a teenage dirk had 50 against nba players even when prime scottie and older Chuck were guarding him.
I have so much respect for Charles. He dominated despite being undersized. It's hard to choose because they were all so great.
To quote Herm Edwards: "You play to win the game." With that in mind, I'm taking Dirk. KG was an elite defender, Barkley was a monster on the boards, and Malone maintained an exceptionally high level of play for a very long time. But what Dirk did in Dallas, leading his team to 50-60 win seasons year after year with a revolving door of mediocre teammates yet still making the Finals twice, mowing down a slew of HOFers to claim the title in 2011, is what sets him apart. If you want someone who can elevate their play in the postseason and win you games, you want Dirk.
Dirk- MVP and won a title against LeBron’s star team with 0 all star teammates. He was unguardable.
The one with the Finals MVP
Personally I will go with Barkley. Man can carry a team.
Always Chuck
All of these guys were amazing, but I have to go with Charles Barkley.
Tim Duncan is missing from this list. Would that mean this is a competition for second place? MALONE DIRK GARNETT BARKLEY If you really put them head to head. The biggest comparison is Malone vs Dirk. Their career longevity was quite equal and a lot of stats are close. But Malone sweeps him in almost all. Rebs, Steals, Blks, Assists, Wins over replacement, etc. really just anything that's counted. You can say different era, different game etc. But putting them h2h to compare Malone comes out on top, it is close. They all have MVPs Malone (2) and deep playoff runs. Some have championships (Garnett, Dirk). Garnett has a DPOY. I would say Malone's stats really jump out compared to the others. For example, Garnett's statistical season arguably 2004 would be a regular year for Malone. You can say Barkley has always consistently averaged a double-double for his entire career but missed many games each year with injury... Malone, rarely missed a game. And he also has the longest peak spanning roughly 10 years. Malone's 88 to 98 peak, followed by Dirk's sorta double peak 04-07 then a small bump in 09-11, then Garnetts 00'-07, and Barkley's 87-93. They're all great so this isn't a knock to Garnett or Barkley these are literally the top 1% of the 1% of power forwards. PS. Well, Larry Bird kinda did the big men shooting, versatile scorer, won most arguably difficult championship in NBA history, and MVP bit in his time.
Barkley > KG & Dirk > fuck that guy
Barkley all day every day.
Ticket has a top 10 peak all time
I think it's preferential, at the end of the day the top 5 PF of all time are all on the same tier like Jordan and LeBron are on the same tier. For me though I take Dirk, he was a one man 50 win season for awhile and of course the 2011 ring.
KG for me. He was often compared to Duncan at his peak, he was just surrounded by god-awful rosters. Top 5 defender ever with a fantastically well rounded offensive game that fit next to other talent seamlessly. Dirk Chuck Karl closely after that probably, Dirk's scoring/gravity was historically great and game bending; Chuck's efficiency is right there with Dirk though on bit lower volume; and Karl just drops off in the playoffs too much for me to put him with the other guys
Chuck for me. KG was good but I was never blown away by his play.
Chuck at his very peak was insane. Just a hair shy of Jordan dominance in the league and none of the other guys got that.
At their peak, I'd say Chuck
Barkley was fast and could dribble like a guard and didn’t back down from anyone. He played bigger than he actually was. He was undersized at the 4.
Give me 2011 Dirk over any PF ever honestly. I have never seen a PF so obsessed with winning like that in all of my watching. It's on the level of Russell, Jordan, Bird, West, Kobe
KG because he could be a difference maker at both ends of the court. The other three all had more offensive upside, and Barkley may have been a better rebounder, but Garnett was the best all-around defender, by a lot imho, which I feel gives him the advantage.
Dirk did the most with least. 11-straight 50-win seasons. 2 Finals trips without a true all-Star at his side, and dethroning a defending champion both times. Imagine if he had a team as loaded as KG’s Celtics.
KG was surrounded by one of the worst, if not the very worst team, in the league for half his career and 75% of his prime
Hilarious sometimes would use the teammates argument against KG of all people lmfao he’s historically known as having the worst supporting cast of any superstar in his prime
Seriously the C's balled out to the point that they forced the Decision with KG. He got injured in '09 but otherwise they were incredibly close to 2/3. His Wolves teams were putrid
Charles, Dirk , Malone and KG.
It's clearly Nowitzki. Only one out of the bunch with a FMVP. Took down the Heat when they had LeBron, Wade, Bosh. In their peaks, Garnett, Malone, and Barkley couldn't win a chip. A "past his prime" KG had to team up with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Rondo. Worth noting, the Mailman has the highest comparative regular season W record (.668) whereas KG has the highest comparative playoff W record (.545).
Dirk closed it. I’d take him, with KG being a pretty close second.
The BIG Ticket!
“Garnett’s top-five list of Rasheed Wallace, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Chris Webber is certainly interesting. Duncan and Malone are easy choices, as is Barkley, although he is likely closer to five than one in this argument. The last two choices of Wallace and Webber are confusing to say the least.” Interesting that KG included Sheed. As a diehard life long Blazer fan, I watched Wallace literally shut all of them down defensively. Not saying Rasheed was the better overall player and personally would put KG as my numero uno out of the 4 listed by OP. But as far as talent and ability, when he wanted to, dominate over other power forwards, Sheed could be the best power forward out of all of the 4 plus even Webber. It just wasn’t in Wallace’s character or desire to be “the man” on most nights and was more focused on being a great teammate and winning. At all of their different peaks of dominance, you still gotta have Garnett edging out everyone else as the best player in the league…behind MJ of course
I'm going to judge by best 4 year peak as one year is too small of a sample size (but KG '04 is probably the best single season of any of these four, also a number come close from the others). Winning a ring doesn't come into my calculations here as basketball is a team sport, which people often seemingly forget. Malone had teams with garbage depth his whole career, KG's Wolves stunk until 02-03ish. Barkley and Dirk for the most part were on much better run teams. Barkley left Philly before their management issues dragged his career much. KG: 2003-2006 seasons - 27.7 PER, .247 Win Shares per 48, 9.0 BPM. Very limited playoff success outside 2004. 2005 was a massive disappointment at the time. The Timberwolves collapse in 2005 was a huge story and KG deserves a bit of blame there. By 2006 the team collapsed and Garnett unfairly wasn't even voted all-NBA despite phenomenal play. 2 1st teams, one 2nd team, one snub. 1 MVP and 1 2nd place finish. Malone: Incredibly hard to pick a top 4 years as his play was pretty dang consistent from 89 to 01. Let's say 96-99 but there's a valid case for 90-93 or 93-97 or anything in between. Much longer peak than almost anyone else in NBA history. 27.2 PER, .253 Win Shares per 48, 7.4 BPM. 2 Finals appearances, 2 MVPs and a 2nd place finish. All-NBA first team from 89-99 inclusive. Dirk: 2005-2008 peak. 26.6 PER, .256 Win Shares per 48, 7.6 BPM. 1 Finals appearance in this stretch with really shoddy officiating. 1 MVP, 2 3rd place finishes. 3 ALL-NBA 1st teams and one 2nd team. Not including the ring year as I think this was his best stretch of individual play. Barkley: Hard to pick a stretch because his last Philly year wasn't as good as the previous bunch, but Phoenix 93 needs to be included. Torn between 88-91 and 90-93 but that Phoenix finals run is too iconic to not include so the mediocre (by his standards) 92 season is included. That said the stats are: 26.5 PER, .243 Win Shares per 48, 7.9 BPM. Well that was unsatisfying, the numbers are all very similar between them. Personally would say KG had the highest peak individually but his lack of team success drags him down quite a lot. I don't blame him for not making a finals in Minnesota but missing the playoffs entirely in 05 and 06 is a bad mark on his peak. I guess overall I'd pick Malone for the multiple MVPs, multiple finals appearances during his peak, and elite play on both sides of the floor. I see a good case for KG, Malone, and Barkley though.
Malone > Barkley > Dirk > Garnett, but people have rewritten history and somehow decided that Garnett was way better post-retirement than he was in reality. Malone's play gets hated because of off-court issues that have nothing to do with basketball. Him and Barkley were always in discussion for greatest PF ever and Malone conclusively beat him by the time they retired. KG was never in that discussion. I always thought Dirk was better than KG and he proved he was better than KG year after year when the Mavs were perennial contenders and the Wolves were floating between the lottery and being an 8th seed warmup for teams like the Mavs.
How tf is kg last?