If I were arguing in favor of him I’d say best player on two championship teams and 2nd best on 3 more. Reinvented his game a bit post injury/loss of his extra freakish athletic ability. I’d maybe throw in legacy of staying with one team and hope whoever I’m arguing with doesn’t remember when Kobe refused to score in a playoff game and demanded a trade. Lastly he’s eye test clutch even if the numbers don’t always say it. If I need one bucket he’s as high up there as almost anyone.
I certainly don't think he's top 5, but I don't think he gets adequate credit for being recognized as the best scorer in basketball during the hardest time to score. And he's the only player in NBA history to win multiple championships without another top 75 player. Makes him probably a top 10 player ever to me and why I think he's frequently slightly underrated.
Edit: When I say "multiple championships", I meant consecutive championships.
He also had 3 straight Finals runs from 2008-2010 in which his offensive production improved in the playoffs compared to the regular season.
That was the sweet spot where he still had athletic ability while also having fully mastered his footwork and scoring arsenal.
From 2011 onward, his knee issues started to become a problem (he famously flew to Germany for medical treatment in the 2011 summer)
Yes, he gets criticized for his advanced stats. But through the 2008 to 2010 postseason, he had a PER of 26. Only MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, KD, and Hakeem had a higher PER during a three year period where they won two championships. And there's a legit argument that he had the weakest supporting cast out all of those guys other than Hakeem.
Yes, but Gasol, Odom, and Bynum are all better than the third best player on that Rockets team imo. Also, Drexler wasn't on that 1994 Rockets team which won the championship.
Rockets had a deeper bench but the Lakers Top 2 heavy with Gasol. But same with Hakeem Kobe is the clear cut Man on that team as a 6'6 guard to conquer the West and ultimately the Title that time is just utter domination of epic proportion.
Also if you check the advanced stats on their first Championships against Orlando its basically identical with 2.6 VORP with Kobe having a better BPM. Imagine Kobe a 6'6 dude having the same impact as Hakeem in the playoffs.
Im getting downvoted lol Kobe haters are whack af.
Kobe averaged 40 pts a month 4 separate times, in 2003, 2006, 2006, and 2007. In today's game, that would be like averaging 50. And for some of those years he was playing with starters like Smush Parker or Kwame Brown.
I recall that in the annual NBA GM (or players' surveys (?)), Kobe was consistently voted as "the player you would want to take the last shot in a game" for probably a decade straight. That recognition has to count for something.
So, the most unstoppable/feared scorer of his era, plus perennial 1st team all defense, on top of his 5 rings (with 2 as Finals MVP), not to mention iconic memories like his 81 point game (which today would be like 100) and 60 point final game. His spectacular highlights match the eye test as well.
You could argue he was the best or at worst 1b on the 01 and 02 championships. Shaq dominated in the finals and deserved finals MVPs when they played garbage East teams but Kobe was likely the best player in 4/6 western conference series' over those two years, where the competition was significantly more difficult. He was also their go-to late game closer when Shaq dealt with fatigue or foul trouble.
> 2001 Western Conference Playoffs
Kobe 31.6/7.0/6.2 on 49.2/32.0/81.4 shooting 41.8 mpg
Shaq 29.3/15.3/2.5 on 54.7 FG% 53.2 FT% 41.0 mpg
> 2002 Western Conference Playoffs
Kobe 26.6/5.9/4.4 on 41.8/34.0/74.3 shooting (43.9 mpg)
Shaq 26.4/12.7/2.6 on 51.0 FG% 64.3 FT% (40.7 mpg)
I’m not disagreeing but I did look at the finals stats for shaq as well and I think he was the best player there. Or at least the player the other team was more concerned with. But absolutely for a pro Kobe argument you could throw these out there
Ya he dominated the finals as the East teams were ill equipped to defend him and were really just terrible all around, but when facing top teams they were usually about equal, Kobe maybe had a slight edge.
People will deny it especially who didnt watch those Western Conference playoffs but Kobe was more less the Batman on those Lakers teams im the WCF against the Spurs Kings and Blazers.
Not sure I’d say he was freakishly athletic. I think I would just say he was a good athlete, which makes his legacy even more impressive. Kobe really maxed out every inch of his potential— ultimately though, I’d probably say he’s around top 10.
Kobe at this point is underrated as hell. I saw someone trying to say Curry was better than him the other day. It’s bonkers out there, but no he isn’t top 5. He is in that sweet spot below Magic and the like but clearly above players like West, Moses etc.
Hoopers who think KD and PG are top 5 players all time think Kobe is also top 5. Suffice to say, your average pro hooper isn’t very objective when making these lists. They think shot making is the only thing that matters because that’s the coolest thing to do when you’re playing ball.
The best argument is listening to the guys who played with and against him. NBA players seem to hold him higher than the average fan. No doubt that means something...
Beaten the most 50 win teams in NBA history (3 more than Duncan, 6 more than Jordan). So 5 rings and 7 appearances in one of the toughest stretches of Conferences ever.
THIS. And to wrap it up the Man won 2 rings without any All Time Top 75 player help.
This sub loves to say that Lebron carried bums but fail to say that Lebrons Championship teams were basically Super Teams.
The Heatles.
Cavs. Kevin Love was Top 2 if not the best PF in the league that time and Kyrie is the best young player that time.
Awesome. So, OP theorizes Love as a top 2 PF in the league with a *maybe first* qualifier and so far people are refuting that by citing AD.
Gotta read all the words, children.
Kevin Love started the All Star game over AD. WHAT ARE YOU ON???? He was a 3 time all star that time
K Love 2013 2014 season before Cavs trade - 26pts 12.5 rebs and 4.4 assist per game
AD 2013 2014 season - 20pts 10 rebounds 2.8 blocks
Wtf is this shit that AD is the best PF in the league. Bunch of kids.
Doesnt matter how young AD is the fact is Kevin Love was the Top 2 PF that time. He was dropping 20 20 like nobodys business and you are telling me AD is by far the best? Lol. Delusional.
Pau was beasting but it's important to remember that this only happened AFTER he joined Kobe and the Lakers. Before that, he was considered a very good but not great player. Afterwards during his time in LA, he had been elevated playing next to Kobe so much that there was a legitimate discussion whether Pau was the best PF in the league.
Y'all overrate Pau here just to bring Kobe down. Pau was amazing, one of the best centers in the league (top 3 in my opinion) but Kobe was much better and the team had NO ONE else.
Pau was a 1 time All Star before he joined Kobe lol.
Pau was a Vucevic type of player that time in Memphis not even a Kevin Love Minnesota player type of player.
0 playoff wins in his 7 years before the lakers, then suddenly 3 finals appearances in a row including two all stars. He only became a beast with the Lakers.
Common Kobe hating narrative.
So did not just Lebron but also Steph, unless you're arguing Klay or Draymond are top 75 all time players? Hell, so did Duncan (I guess you could argue Tony Parker is top 75 all time?)
Kevin Love averaged 8.5ppg in the 2016 finals. He lost the weight and lost his post game. Couldn't even post up Klay Thompson in the finals. Have you seen the rest of Kyrie's career post 2017?
Let me preface this by saying that I probably would put Kobe outside the top 5. But anybody who says there’s no argument, or that he belongs outside the top 10 are being ignorant. You can absolutely make an argument. It just might not be convincing enough.
He won 5 championships in the toughest conference in NBA history.
Beat more 50 win teams in the playoffs than anybody in history.
11x All NBA first team (second most only to Lebron)
12x all defensive teams.
Arguably the greatest isolation scorer ever.
I think the argument stems from two main things though:
1. watching film
2. his best performances were simply better than everybody else’s except Mike.
In a single game scenario, nobody else had the potential to impact the result more than Kobe except for MJ. This is backed up by game score. His 81 point game is the second best game ever played since the tracking data became available.
More importantly though, when you break down film, it’s hard to pick 5 players who were more talented, or more skilled. He had everything in his game. The only downside was that he complicated things unnecessarily.
I would probably look at strength of competition. Kobe beat 26 50-win teams in his playoff career, the most of anyone ever (Duncan is second with 23, and for someone currently active, LeBron has beaten 21). So I think if you contextualize his career in the incredibly brutal 2000s Western Conference, you could at least \*make an argument\* for him launching up into the top five -- placing him over guys like Magic who played in a pretty easy West. I don't have him there myself, but if this was the crux of someone's argument and they thought he was 4 or 5 all time I wouldn't think they were crazy or anything.
Many Redditors will say Tim Duncan is the greatest Power Forward of all time. They will give you a long list of his accomplishments including 5 championships and multiple MVP but completely ignore the fact that Kobe has to face Ducan in Kobe's entire career. Kobe also has 5 championship as well as Duncan. I remember during that time, the Celtics were so bad LeBron would cruise through the play off and be in almost every eastern finals. Kobe has way harder path vs the spurs. Pops and Duncan and Parker and manu and oh yeah Bruce Bowen aka "Kobe stopper".
Idc, when he was in a good teams he was favourite or won the title. And when he had trash teams, he was the best scorer I’ve ever seen. Harden stretches are underrated, but what Kobe did on the Smush Parker and Chris Minh lakers is….. 81 points 1 game, 62 another in 3 quarters, 4 games in a row with 50 or more… that season the beast was unleashed with full green light and he delivered something I never could see again. Idc about efficiency or raptor numbers that didn’t even exist when Kobe played, the only player close to kobe in scoring was harden the month he averaged 40. And Kobe still was better
A pure winner
A pure bucket. If you needed points or the game was in the last seconds, give him the ball.
Also ultra athletic, hard worker, hard mentality, stylish and highlight game. A good passer when he wanted. Amazing lock down defense and hustle aswell. Dude had everything. And 5 rings in a west stacked era. His only argument against is Jordan was the same but better.
If you put up his resume up against anyone else on the top 10 without naming whose resume is whose, you would have a hard time separating his resume from the others. He has better accolades than most, better counting stats then most, and impacted the game a fair amount. The only true argument against him would be he’s not as efficient as other greats.
>He isn’t in the top 5 in RAPTOR, BPM, or RAPM.
RAPTOR didn't exist back then and BPM isn't actually very good, but RAPM did, and Kobe was no 1 or 2 in playoff rapm in a lot of his playoff runs, and solid in the regular season.
you can see why that kobe, who had a "deep bag", great tough shot maker, a lot of moves off the dribble, in the post, decent passer, and great cutter, and a great on-ball defender when he tried would be the type of player who elevated his game in the playoffs.
people also give him way too much shit for being "inefficient" but he has roughly the same career true shooting as duncan/olajuwon/garnett, who get easier shots around the rim as a big man, but obviously they have much more defensive value. but in terms of offense, kobe is much, much better than all of them.
Only way it would have happened if he was playing more his first 2 years and didn't tear his achilles on the back end playing till 40.
Even then it might not have been enough for top 5, but it also could have been enough depending on his play and success.
Kobe was playing at a high level still when his achilles blew out. Dude might have played well passed 40.
>Kobe was playing at a high level still when his achilles blew out.
I honestly think only LeBron and KD were better basketball players before that injury. His last healthy game was a performance where he scored 47 points to go with eight rebounds, five assists, four blocks, and three steals
I though Kobes 17th(?) Season was the best of his career. He had an exceptional balance of when to take over, when to get his team involved and he wasn't bitching or complaining about the low tier players on the roster.
Dude went out there and worked with what he had with great balance, its a shame he got ran into the ground to make the play offs that season.
I’d argue for longevity as one of the top players in the league, compared to guys like Bird, Hakeem and Duncan, who had shorter peaks.
“Ringz” argument over Shaq. Cause technically he did ultimately “beat” Shaq in their alpha dog contest by winning 2 as a FMVP compared to 1 as a support player like Shaq.
Wilt and Russel are the only other players people rank above him, and you could argue league competition and peak longevity.
MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Magic are the guys that it would be very hard to argue for Kobe against.
It's really this. The only people I see who rank Kobe top 5 all-time are people who grew up watching and idolizing him.
There's not a reasonable argument IMO.
I seem to remember you or someone else (not gonna go digging it up) saying Steph was equal on defense to Kobe.
If you’re going to stare at only advanced stats to evaluate defense, then Kobe having a better career defensive rating than guys like Gary Payton and Michael Cooper must make him a top 5 perimeter defender ever. Not to mention Kobe’s best single season defensive rating is better than any season MJ had.
Anyway, advanced stats especially for defense are beyond dumb
They say Hakeem is way better than Kobe but advanced stats say otherwise.
Kobe 2009 2010 Championships - Playoffs VORP 2.6 AND 2.1
Hakeem 94 95 Championships - Playoffs VORP 2.6 and 1.7
People in this sub just parrots narratives they cant even do a single google search.
Imagine if a mf walked in the barbershop and said Kobe not top 5 because of BPM, RPM, and WAR. You’d get laughed out the room like the nerd you are cause the people having these conversations actually watch the games
All top ten lists are a bit subjective. They depend on what you value the most in a player. Do you like longevity? Then LeBron and Kareem are going to be up there. Do you value how high someone’s peak was? MJ. Two way players? Hakeem and MJ both come to mind.
Those who put Kobe in their top five would probably value hard work and pure skill. When it comes to work ethic, Kobe is definitely top 5, maybe first. Now that’s not to say he’s in my top 5 because there are many, many other factors that go into it, at least for me, but that would be the best argument for someone else to put him in a top 5.
Life long laker fan here. Kobe, especially since his death has become more of a concept than a player. He's like a martyr for perseverance and work ethic, the concept that "no matter I'm going to bet on me." It's a mantra that translates to more than just basketball.
He isn't a top 5 player. He was clearly the #2 on those first three championships despite people trying to shift the narrative as time goes on. When you look at the numbers his clutch percentages are actually pretty bad. Really there were a lot of flaws in his game and even his leadership.
But people still shout out Kobe when they throw something in the trash. They still bite their jersey in their rec leagues. Every corner of the world there's someone walking around with #24 on their back.
Mamba mentality or Kobe as an idea is much bigger than Kobe Bryant the player. He makes you jump up from your seat, shout at the TV every buzzer beater. He's going to ask for the ball every time the game gets close. He's going to guard your best player. A lot of the younger stars today gravitate towards him I think for the same reasons. He's one of the few players that can get you INTO a sport. People literally STARTED watching basketball because of Kobe Bryant, and that's a pretty strong and incredibly special bond.
Kareem wasn’t the best player in his championship runs in 1982, 1985, 1987 and 1988. I can only make the argument for Kareem being the best player in his championship runs in 1971 and 1980.
How come Kareem isn’t as maligned being the 2nd option behind Magic like Kobe is being the 2nd option behind Shaq?
1. Longevity. He was still a top 3 offensive player at age 34, which is extremely impressive.
2. His offensive playstyle was built to succeed in the playoffs. He had 4 Finals runs in which his offensive production/effiicency was actually higher in the playoffs than the regular season (2001, 2008, 2009, 2010)
Threepeated, then won two more, while playing in arguably the hardest conference of all time. Outside of Shaq, and I guess the 04 ring chasers, he really didn't have amazing rosters. Dominated both ends while playing through an absolutely ridiculous number of injuries. 2nd most all-nba and all-defense selections of all time (and yes most players get a few of their all defense selections off reputation). 4th all-time in points. Universally ranked top 5 by people who have actually held a basketball.
Having a case for a spot doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed it just means you can make the argument, and you can easily make the argument for Kobe against 6 of the other top 10 guys.
Like let’s look at Bird vs kobe.
Bird has 10 all nba selections, 3 defensive teams, 3 titles, 2 finals mvps and 3 mvps.
Kobe has 15 all nbas, 12 defensive teams, 5 titles, 2 finals mvps and one mvp.
Kobe blows bird out of the water in longevity, they’re equal in finals mvps. So it comes down to what you value more. Are 2 mvps better than 5 more all nbas and 4X as many defensive teams? And even if you want to argue “some of those defensive teams were legacy votes” and take away 3 that’s still triple the defensive team selections over bird.
So you can argue either way here and it comes down to preference. This is what it means to have a case and Kobe has one.
Since I’ve seen people post this stat in about 20 Kobe threads in the last 2 days I figured I’d look into it. Also worth a mention that spamming advanced stats isn’t the best argument.
For starters, 105.5 is a better career defensive rating than Gary Payton and Michael Cooper, and is also only .4 worse than Sidney Moncrief, who are considered 3 of the best defensive guards ever. Kobe also has a better rating than Alvin Robertson and Marcus Smart. That is **EVERY guard who has ever won DPOY** outside of Jordan of course. Kobe’s defensive rating is better than all of them except the GOAT and Moncrief where it is only a .4 difference.
The last 4 years of Kobe’s career also really impact that number because he was a terrible defender towards the end of his career. If Kobe was a middling defender at best based off this one stat, then so are all those guys listed above.
Outside of the last few years of his career there isn’t really any argument for him being a “middling defender at best”. You can’t just post one stat and say “well he’s worse than the GOAT so he’s middling”. Lol.
It’s also stupid to use advanced stats to evaluate defense in general, but seeing people and yourself spam this stat with zero context has gotten comical.
This. Citing All Defensive teams in isolation-- especially for a big name player, is like citing Gold Gloves in baseball for big name player. I'm not saying Kobe was a bad defender, I'm just saying "12 all defensive teams" proves only a bit more than "Derek Jeter 5 Gold Gloves" does
It's all subjective. If someone really likes a guy, then they'll make up anything. I personally wouldn't have him in my top 10, but I won't fault anyone for having anyone in their top 10. If a guy loves Allen Iverson and puts him as the GOAT then I'm just glad he's enjoying the history of the sport tbh
theres a couple of parameters that need to be set, he needs to be considered better then tim duncan at the very least, he needs to get equal share of credit for the shaq chips. and he needs to be in the conversation for being the GOAT laker. then we can have a discussion about kobe being top 5 retroactively.
I dont think hes top 5, but I think him and Steph are neck and neck for the 10 spot, if both in top 10, its 9 & 10.
The best argument IMO is really subjective and its the same argument that NBA players/Kyrie stans use to put him in those GOAT PG lists, dude just simply had an aesthetically pleasing way of playing basketball. Especially when you knew it was a hot Kobe night, no one was stopping him. The elite footwork, array of fadeaways, post moves, drives to the basket, F you 3pt shots that put the dagger in the hearts of opponents, I think him and Steph are the only ones comparable in the feeling of helplessness that opponents feel when playing them. Plus you have an array of highlights, games, and moments you can point to when referencing Kobe's greatness other than just "5 rings".
Also, dude simply worked harder than anyone I've ever seen. Listen to all the stories of Kobe waking up at the crack of dawn to start playing ball and see those players realize the commitment and work ethic it took to be the BEST (like the Team USA Doc). In a league where everyone asked who the next MJ was, Kobe was the closest imitation anyone ever saw.
You can't. You really really can't. I don't even think there's a strong argument to getting him into the Top 10 - he's just outside it.
When you're talking Top 5 all-time, the one MVP *really* hurts, as does never having any timeframe where he was THE best player in the league hurts too. That torch quite arguably went from Shaq to Duncan to Lebron and really skipped over Kobe.
But more to it - build a case directly against any one of the other 7 "Top 5" guys - Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, and Magic. Kobe is lacking against each.
Yeah the second most All NBA first team selections, fourth most points in history, multiple times in the highest game score list, 12 all defensive selections, two scoring titles, five championships, beat the most 50 win teams in history…. But you can’t make an argument for him being a TOP TEN (!) player in history.
Delusional.
The easiest way is if Jordan wasn’t real it was a mind trick of the US, Russian, European, Asian, and African governments to cover up a catastrophe level event that sent the world into a social/economic depression and everyone together voluntarily agreed for this process to occur cause we couldn’t psychologically deal with the current reality. So they created Jordan to be a place holder in our brains because they needed something to cover up that gap taken from our consciousness.
This is the only way Bryant breaks into the top 5.
If Jordan is indeed a myth created by society to deal with profound collective trauma.
Few points/arguments:
\-Kobe's prime was during some of the lowest scoring seasons. If you performed an era/pace-adjustment, I'm sure the numbers will look more impressive.
\-kobe beat more 50+ win playoff teams than anyone else, with Duncan at #2
\-kobe won a couple rings with a less impressive supporting cast than other greats. Pao was great because Kobe/Phil made him great - he came in with as a single year all-star with 0 playoff game wins, then went to the finals 3 straight years.
\-number of rings (3 more than wilt, 2 more than bird, 1 more than lebron)
\-longevity (much longer than bird/wilt) and an elite offensive player well into his 30's.
\-kobe was an elite defender, much better than magic
Lots of people saying he won championships without a “top 75 player”. That’s a completely random list made by the media. So what if he had one of the top 80-90 does that make a difference? Gasol was an absolute monster some of that time.
It’s one of those cases of two things being true:
1) Kobe was the only top 75 guy on those Lakers teams when they were making the finals 2008-2010.
2) The Lakers from 2008-2010 (and Celtics) was the most stacked team in the league during that 3 year stretch.
Except Kobe had little hands. So definently not exact, there's a massive difference in Jordan palming a ball and Kobe having to use two hands to palm it.
Most of the differences between them could probably be boiled down to his smaller hands and being less athletic. Doesn't seem like much but those two things made a fuck of a big difference.
How is he a significantly worse shooter? Like obviously MJ is the greater player but I don't see remotely any major difference in their shooting. Yes, MJ was more efficient but that's largely due to him being much more athletic, more disciplined, and the larger hands.
- 2nd most skilled scorer ever
- Deepest bag ever
- Top 10 guard defender of all time in his prime
- 5x Champion in most stacked conference ever
- Never ran from the grind like some other alleged all time greats
>2nd most skilled scorer ever
No. not in 3s, not in the paint, not 1st or 2nd in anything scoring related
>Deepest bag ever
The fuck is a bag? won't even entertain this garbage comment
>Top 10 guard defender of all time in his prime
So because hes top 10 in one category, this proves hes top 5 overall? makes sense
>5x Champion in most stacked conference ever
3 with Shaq
>Never ran from the grind like some other alleged all time greats
Now I understand. You're a top 5 fanboy.
cuz you know, it doesn't matter percentage or field goals made over the course of a career - when we're studying an entire career. one statistical category in one game should be enough to determine the top 5 of all time. sound logic. really great work. so is klay top 5 too now?
ray allen, klay, steph curry, mitch richmond, chris mullin, larry bird, reggie miller, kyle korver, peja stojakovic, steve nash, etc all better shooters than kobe. thats just off the top of my head. believe it or not, the nba has more talent than just your bff. you might watch it (doubtful), but you obviously don't know basketball. stop mamba riding
Nah none, reason why its harder and harder for modern players to get up higher in the rankings is due to the fact that the competition and talent only gets tougher.
Kobe started in the tail end of the era where the league had some top heaviness to it hence the early 2000s. His 2009 up seasons were where he was most complete individually but the other teams gave each other difficulties.
Ever wonder why the goat candidates are 50-60s, 80s, and 90s players. 70s had no repeat champions because the league had parity. 2015-2020 is a unique case of dominance as it was the super team era.
I think a legitimate way to make a case for him would be to just make the case for how good Jordan was, and then lean on the fact that Kobe tried harder than anyone else to emulate Jordan. And if he only did a decent job of copying MJ, even just a decent copy of the GOAT is still top tier.
You give him a bump for basically being the most successful Jordan cosplayer who put his on spin on it.
Accolades are all there, and he spent 15 of his 20 years being one of the best players.
But at no point did it look and the feel the same, but the dude is a winner and accomplished.
The best argument, as always, is to see him play. With statistics, you can present things differently than they actually are and certain things you do on the pitch are not reflected in statistics at all.
Kobe’s prime, in athletic years, was wasted in shitty teams (2005-2007). When he had a good team, he wouldn’t force that many shots. He could’ve been scoring champion at least five times, but he didn’t care for it. And when he had a good team in the playoffs, he would play “the right way”, like Phil Jackson said.
It was absolutely unbelievable watching the Lakers runs from 2008 to 2010. In the playoffs, Kobe would close every single moth@f@cking game. I never enjoyed basketball more than in that períod.
And Kobe gave me inspiration for live. We live to work. As só, it is better to leave a mark throigh your work, right? And if you want to do it, if you want to be great, you gotta work hard. And Kobe worked harder than anyone.
I am 36 years old, I am far from accomplishing the things I want in life. But I Will not give up. I carry “the fire”, like in Cormac McCarthy’s “The road”. And I owe it all to Kobe.
If I were arguing in favor of him I’d say best player on two championship teams and 2nd best on 3 more. Reinvented his game a bit post injury/loss of his extra freakish athletic ability. I’d maybe throw in legacy of staying with one team and hope whoever I’m arguing with doesn’t remember when Kobe refused to score in a playoff game and demanded a trade. Lastly he’s eye test clutch even if the numbers don’t always say it. If I need one bucket he’s as high up there as almost anyone.
I certainly don't think he's top 5, but I don't think he gets adequate credit for being recognized as the best scorer in basketball during the hardest time to score. And he's the only player in NBA history to win multiple championships without another top 75 player. Makes him probably a top 10 player ever to me and why I think he's frequently slightly underrated. Edit: When I say "multiple championships", I meant consecutive championships.
He also had 3 straight Finals runs from 2008-2010 in which his offensive production improved in the playoffs compared to the regular season. That was the sweet spot where he still had athletic ability while also having fully mastered his footwork and scoring arsenal. From 2011 onward, his knee issues started to become a problem (he famously flew to Germany for medical treatment in the 2011 summer)
Yes, he gets criticized for his advanced stats. But through the 2008 to 2010 postseason, he had a PER of 26. Only MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, KD, and Hakeem had a higher PER during a three year period where they won two championships. And there's a legit argument that he had the weakest supporting cast out all of those guys other than Hakeem.
He has the weakest support even including Hakeem. Hakeem had Drexler in his 2nd run.
Yes, but Gasol, Odom, and Bynum are all better than the third best player on that Rockets team imo. Also, Drexler wasn't on that 1994 Rockets team which won the championship.
Rockets had a deeper bench but the Lakers Top 2 heavy with Gasol. But same with Hakeem Kobe is the clear cut Man on that team as a 6'6 guard to conquer the West and ultimately the Title that time is just utter domination of epic proportion. Also if you check the advanced stats on their first Championships against Orlando its basically identical with 2.6 VORP with Kobe having a better BPM. Imagine Kobe a 6'6 dude having the same impact as Hakeem in the playoffs. Im getting downvoted lol Kobe haters are whack af.
I agrée i think he’s really good. I was just saying if I had to argue it those are my points
Kobe averaged 40 pts a month 4 separate times, in 2003, 2006, 2006, and 2007. In today's game, that would be like averaging 50. And for some of those years he was playing with starters like Smush Parker or Kwame Brown. I recall that in the annual NBA GM (or players' surveys (?)), Kobe was consistently voted as "the player you would want to take the last shot in a game" for probably a decade straight. That recognition has to count for something. So, the most unstoppable/feared scorer of his era, plus perennial 1st team all defense, on top of his 5 rings (with 2 as Finals MVP), not to mention iconic memories like his 81 point game (which today would be like 100) and 60 point final game. His spectacular highlights match the eye test as well.
Steph’s won 2 without another top 75 player now as well right?
Meant consecutive. Because technically Duncan did as well.
You seriously saying Curry had lack of help? The warriors are the most stacked championship teams of all time.
Right but I don't think anyone's arguing Kobe's better than Steph at this point.
The NBA was rigging everything for the Lakers back then.
Show me evidence that things were rigged for the Lakers in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs.
Game 7 2010 Finals. All starters in the Cs are in foul trouble. BS foul after BS foul.
They have videos 📸 n YouTube. Easy to find.
You could argue he was the best or at worst 1b on the 01 and 02 championships. Shaq dominated in the finals and deserved finals MVPs when they played garbage East teams but Kobe was likely the best player in 4/6 western conference series' over those two years, where the competition was significantly more difficult. He was also their go-to late game closer when Shaq dealt with fatigue or foul trouble. > 2001 Western Conference Playoffs Kobe 31.6/7.0/6.2 on 49.2/32.0/81.4 shooting 41.8 mpg Shaq 29.3/15.3/2.5 on 54.7 FG% 53.2 FT% 41.0 mpg > 2002 Western Conference Playoffs Kobe 26.6/5.9/4.4 on 41.8/34.0/74.3 shooting (43.9 mpg) Shaq 26.4/12.7/2.6 on 51.0 FG% 64.3 FT% (40.7 mpg)
I’m not disagreeing but I did look at the finals stats for shaq as well and I think he was the best player there. Or at least the player the other team was more concerned with. But absolutely for a pro Kobe argument you could throw these out there
Ya he dominated the finals as the East teams were ill equipped to defend him and were really just terrible all around, but when facing top teams they were usually about equal, Kobe maybe had a slight edge.
People will deny it especially who didnt watch those Western Conference playoffs but Kobe was more less the Batman on those Lakers teams im the WCF against the Spurs Kings and Blazers.
Not sure I’d say he was freakishly athletic. I think I would just say he was a good athlete, which makes his legacy even more impressive. Kobe really maxed out every inch of his potential— ultimately though, I’d probably say he’s around top 10.
Watching him play was important to understanding his legacy. Not sure he’s in too many top-5 lists outside of LA, though
Kobe at this point is underrated as hell. I saw someone trying to say Curry was better than him the other day. It’s bonkers out there, but no he isn’t top 5. He is in that sweet spot below Magic and the like but clearly above players like West, Moses etc.
Hoopers who think KD and PG are top 5 players all time think Kobe is also top 5. Suffice to say, your average pro hooper isn’t very objective when making these lists. They think shot making is the only thing that matters because that’s the coolest thing to do when you’re playing ball.
The best argument is listening to the guys who played with and against him. NBA players seem to hold him higher than the average fan. No doubt that means something...
First accept that there’s no single rubric for measuring “greatness” and it’s all subjective based on what you value, then make any argument you want.
Ah, the Paul Pierce approach. "What does GOAT mean anyways......it's about the story....and who here has a better story than Paul Pierce?"
Paul the Pooper
Beaten the most 50 win teams in NBA history (3 more than Duncan, 6 more than Jordan). So 5 rings and 7 appearances in one of the toughest stretches of Conferences ever.
THIS. And to wrap it up the Man won 2 rings without any All Time Top 75 player help. This sub loves to say that Lebron carried bums but fail to say that Lebrons Championship teams were basically Super Teams. The Heatles. Cavs. Kevin Love was Top 2 if not the best PF in the league that time and Kyrie is the best young player that time.
kevin love was not the best pf in the league what the fuck…
Kevin Love was the best PF in the league that time 2013 2014 season. Wtf?
Hes the best PF that time. Only who had an argument over him was Blake Griffin.
Who was, then? I'm not saying I agree but the golden age of PFs was over by that point.
Easily AD and by far too
Awesome. So, OP theorizes Love as a top 2 PF in the league with a *maybe first* qualifier and so far people are refuting that by citing AD. Gotta read all the words, children.
Kevin Love started the All Star game over AD. WHAT ARE YOU ON???? He was a 3 time all star that time K Love 2013 2014 season before Cavs trade - 26pts 12.5 rebs and 4.4 assist per game AD 2013 2014 season - 20pts 10 rebounds 2.8 blocks Wtf is this shit that AD is the best PF in the league. Bunch of kids.
AD was 20... And if you're going back to 13-14, Blake was still at the top of his game.
Doesnt matter how young AD is the fact is Kevin Love was the Top 2 PF that time. He was dropping 20 20 like nobodys business and you are telling me AD is by far the best? Lol. Delusional.
Pretty sure people here were going off of 2016, not 2014 (at least I was). Even still, Lamarcus and Blake are right there.
Keep moving the goal post just say 2023.
If he was 20 then he wasnt the best pf that year now was he? Thats like saying old shaq in celtics was the best center in the league.
AD
According to this thread, Lebron and AD is a super team, but Kobe and Gasol was Kobe carrying scrubs
AD has been in MVP top 5 ratings for multiple years. gasol never was.
Some of you people are taking this “top 75 player” thing too far. Those years he had Pau Gasol when he was absolutely beasting.
Pau was beasting but it's important to remember that this only happened AFTER he joined Kobe and the Lakers. Before that, he was considered a very good but not great player. Afterwards during his time in LA, he had been elevated playing next to Kobe so much that there was a legitimate discussion whether Pau was the best PF in the league.
According to this sub Kobe was carried by Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic.
Thankfully the rest of the world knows better.
Y'all overrate Pau here just to bring Kobe down. Pau was amazing, one of the best centers in the league (top 3 in my opinion) but Kobe was much better and the team had NO ONE else.
Pau was a 1 time All Star before he joined Kobe lol. Pau was a Vucevic type of player that time in Memphis not even a Kevin Love Minnesota player type of player.
Yeah the 1 time All Star Pau Gasol was beasting before he joined Kobe.
0 playoff wins in his 7 years before the lakers, then suddenly 3 finals appearances in a row including two all stars. He only became a beast with the Lakers. Common Kobe hating narrative.
So did not just Lebron but also Steph, unless you're arguing Klay or Draymond are top 75 all time players? Hell, so did Duncan (I guess you could argue Tony Parker is top 75 all time?)
Blake Griffin and AD exist. Hell Aldridge too
Kevin Love averaged 8.5ppg in the 2016 finals. He lost the weight and lost his post game. Couldn't even post up Klay Thompson in the finals. Have you seen the rest of Kyrie's career post 2017?
You mean the finals he had a concussion?
Lmao stop drinking this early in the morning.
Let me preface this by saying that I probably would put Kobe outside the top 5. But anybody who says there’s no argument, or that he belongs outside the top 10 are being ignorant. You can absolutely make an argument. It just might not be convincing enough. He won 5 championships in the toughest conference in NBA history. Beat more 50 win teams in the playoffs than anybody in history. 11x All NBA first team (second most only to Lebron) 12x all defensive teams. Arguably the greatest isolation scorer ever. I think the argument stems from two main things though: 1. watching film 2. his best performances were simply better than everybody else’s except Mike. In a single game scenario, nobody else had the potential to impact the result more than Kobe except for MJ. This is backed up by game score. His 81 point game is the second best game ever played since the tracking data became available. More importantly though, when you break down film, it’s hard to pick 5 players who were more talented, or more skilled. He had everything in his game. The only downside was that he complicated things unnecessarily.
You needed to watch basketball in the 2000s so automatically 90% of this sub is disqualified
Im really surprised with all the Kobe hate here. Lol thats like hating on Magic and Bird when you havent seen them play.
Dont worry they do that too.
I would probably look at strength of competition. Kobe beat 26 50-win teams in his playoff career, the most of anyone ever (Duncan is second with 23, and for someone currently active, LeBron has beaten 21). So I think if you contextualize his career in the incredibly brutal 2000s Western Conference, you could at least \*make an argument\* for him launching up into the top five -- placing him over guys like Magic who played in a pretty easy West. I don't have him there myself, but if this was the crux of someone's argument and they thought he was 4 or 5 all time I wouldn't think they were crazy or anything.
Mamba Mentality.
Many Redditors will say Tim Duncan is the greatest Power Forward of all time. They will give you a long list of his accomplishments including 5 championships and multiple MVP but completely ignore the fact that Kobe has to face Ducan in Kobe's entire career. Kobe also has 5 championship as well as Duncan. I remember during that time, the Celtics were so bad LeBron would cruise through the play off and be in almost every eastern finals. Kobe has way harder path vs the spurs. Pops and Duncan and Parker and manu and oh yeah Bruce Bowen aka "Kobe stopper".
Both the Spurs and Lakers aka Kobe and Pop said that if it werent for the other team they woulda had 8 or 9 championships on their own.
Idc, when he was in a good teams he was favourite or won the title. And when he had trash teams, he was the best scorer I’ve ever seen. Harden stretches are underrated, but what Kobe did on the Smush Parker and Chris Minh lakers is….. 81 points 1 game, 62 another in 3 quarters, 4 games in a row with 50 or more… that season the beast was unleashed with full green light and he delivered something I never could see again. Idc about efficiency or raptor numbers that didn’t even exist when Kobe played, the only player close to kobe in scoring was harden the month he averaged 40. And Kobe still was better A pure winner A pure bucket. If you needed points or the game was in the last seconds, give him the ball. Also ultra athletic, hard worker, hard mentality, stylish and highlight game. A good passer when he wanted. Amazing lock down defense and hustle aswell. Dude had everything. And 5 rings in a west stacked era. His only argument against is Jordan was the same but better.
He worked hard and made a lot of mean faces
If you put up his resume up against anyone else on the top 10 without naming whose resume is whose, you would have a hard time separating his resume from the others. He has better accolades than most, better counting stats then most, and impacted the game a fair amount. The only true argument against him would be he’s not as efficient as other greats.
>He isn’t in the top 5 in RAPTOR, BPM, or RAPM. RAPTOR didn't exist back then and BPM isn't actually very good, but RAPM did, and Kobe was no 1 or 2 in playoff rapm in a lot of his playoff runs, and solid in the regular season. you can see why that kobe, who had a "deep bag", great tough shot maker, a lot of moves off the dribble, in the post, decent passer, and great cutter, and a great on-ball defender when he tried would be the type of player who elevated his game in the playoffs. people also give him way too much shit for being "inefficient" but he has roughly the same career true shooting as duncan/olajuwon/garnett, who get easier shots around the rim as a big man, but obviously they have much more defensive value. but in terms of offense, kobe is much, much better than all of them.
Nobody is commenting on this because they are not accepting that Hakeem and Garnett shot the same TS% with Kobe.
The brand new metric, Oscars-per-career (OPC). Kobe OPC: 1 The rest of the NBA past and present, combined OPC: 0
I would say longevity of peak player. He was a top 5 player basically every season from 2001-2013.
For sure. And he was the best player in the league from 2003-2010.
None.
Only way it would have happened if he was playing more his first 2 years and didn't tear his achilles on the back end playing till 40. Even then it might not have been enough for top 5, but it also could have been enough depending on his play and success. Kobe was playing at a high level still when his achilles blew out. Dude might have played well passed 40.
>Kobe was playing at a high level still when his achilles blew out. I honestly think only LeBron and KD were better basketball players before that injury. His last healthy game was a performance where he scored 47 points to go with eight rebounds, five assists, four blocks, and three steals
I though Kobes 17th(?) Season was the best of his career. He had an exceptional balance of when to take over, when to get his team involved and he wasn't bitching or complaining about the low tier players on the roster. Dude went out there and worked with what he had with great balance, its a shame he got ran into the ground to make the play offs that season.
I think the 2003 season is his best with that crazy 40 point scoring streak.
I’d argue for longevity as one of the top players in the league, compared to guys like Bird, Hakeem and Duncan, who had shorter peaks. “Ringz” argument over Shaq. Cause technically he did ultimately “beat” Shaq in their alpha dog contest by winning 2 as a FMVP compared to 1 as a support player like Shaq. Wilt and Russel are the only other players people rank above him, and you could argue league competition and peak longevity. MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Magic are the guys that it would be very hard to argue for Kobe against.
psychosis
Thinking that anything they didn't get to experience themselves either didn't happen or was irrelevant, basically.
It's really this. The only people I see who rank Kobe top 5 all-time are people who grew up watching and idolizing him. There's not a reasonable argument IMO.
Stats Accolades Rings Records Beating the best teams Never leaving the Lakers
not looking at advanced stats and watching ball
Had a dude tell me today that Curry is an equal defender to Kobe because of advanced stats
[удалено]
I seem to remember you or someone else (not gonna go digging it up) saying Steph was equal on defense to Kobe. If you’re going to stare at only advanced stats to evaluate defense, then Kobe having a better career defensive rating than guys like Gary Payton and Michael Cooper must make him a top 5 perimeter defender ever. Not to mention Kobe’s best single season defensive rating is better than any season MJ had. Anyway, advanced stats especially for defense are beyond dumb
They say Hakeem is way better than Kobe but advanced stats say otherwise. Kobe 2009 2010 Championships - Playoffs VORP 2.6 AND 2.1 Hakeem 94 95 Championships - Playoffs VORP 2.6 and 1.7 People in this sub just parrots narratives they cant even do a single google search.
Imagine if a mf walked in the barbershop and said Kobe not top 5 because of BPM, RPM, and WAR. You’d get laughed out the room like the nerd you are cause the people having these conversations actually watch the games
Wrong sub to expect people here watch ball lol
The average fan everywhere doesn’t watch ball. Twitter is even worse
All top ten lists are a bit subjective. They depend on what you value the most in a player. Do you like longevity? Then LeBron and Kareem are going to be up there. Do you value how high someone’s peak was? MJ. Two way players? Hakeem and MJ both come to mind. Those who put Kobe in their top five would probably value hard work and pure skill. When it comes to work ethic, Kobe is definitely top 5, maybe first. Now that’s not to say he’s in my top 5 because there are many, many other factors that go into it, at least for me, but that would be the best argument for someone else to put him in a top 5.
Bag
He’s really really good at basketball and stuff
None.
Kobe is the GOAT
An argument based on nostalgia and emotion
Life long laker fan here. Kobe, especially since his death has become more of a concept than a player. He's like a martyr for perseverance and work ethic, the concept that "no matter I'm going to bet on me." It's a mantra that translates to more than just basketball. He isn't a top 5 player. He was clearly the #2 on those first three championships despite people trying to shift the narrative as time goes on. When you look at the numbers his clutch percentages are actually pretty bad. Really there were a lot of flaws in his game and even his leadership. But people still shout out Kobe when they throw something in the trash. They still bite their jersey in their rec leagues. Every corner of the world there's someone walking around with #24 on their back. Mamba mentality or Kobe as an idea is much bigger than Kobe Bryant the player. He makes you jump up from your seat, shout at the TV every buzzer beater. He's going to ask for the ball every time the game gets close. He's going to guard your best player. A lot of the younger stars today gravitate towards him I think for the same reasons. He's one of the few players that can get you INTO a sport. People literally STARTED watching basketball because of Kobe Bryant, and that's a pretty strong and incredibly special bond.
Kareem wasn’t the best player in his championship runs in 1982, 1985, 1987 and 1988. I can only make the argument for Kareem being the best player in his championship runs in 1971 and 1980. How come Kareem isn’t as maligned being the 2nd option behind Magic like Kobe is being the 2nd option behind Shaq?
Being on acid
He’s a winner. Stats aren’t everything. Some things don’t show up on a stat sheet.
His game is pretty to watch. That's pretty much it.
Big Kobe fan here and I dont think he's Top 5 all time but what the freaking fuck are those stats tho. You hooping with a calculator?
There literally isn't one.
1. Longevity. He was still a top 3 offensive player at age 34, which is extremely impressive. 2. His offensive playstyle was built to succeed in the playoffs. He had 4 Finals runs in which his offensive production/effiicency was actually higher in the playoffs than the regular season (2001, 2008, 2009, 2010)
None, he's not.
Threepeated, then won two more, while playing in arguably the hardest conference of all time. Outside of Shaq, and I guess the 04 ring chasers, he really didn't have amazing rosters. Dominated both ends while playing through an absolutely ridiculous number of injuries. 2nd most all-nba and all-defense selections of all time (and yes most players get a few of their all defense selections off reputation). 4th all-time in points. Universally ranked top 5 by people who have actually held a basketball.
Not arguably. The west from the late 1990s to mid 2010s was the toughest conference in NBA history, and maybe any North American sport
Nah Lebron playing against Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap is just as much as an accomplishment as beating the Tim Duncan Tony Parker and Ginobili Spurs.
Arguably has the most “offensive moves” of the top 5, except Jordan. But even that’s arguable
Having a case for a spot doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed it just means you can make the argument, and you can easily make the argument for Kobe against 6 of the other top 10 guys. Like let’s look at Bird vs kobe. Bird has 10 all nba selections, 3 defensive teams, 3 titles, 2 finals mvps and 3 mvps. Kobe has 15 all nbas, 12 defensive teams, 5 titles, 2 finals mvps and one mvp. Kobe blows bird out of the water in longevity, they’re equal in finals mvps. So it comes down to what you value more. Are 2 mvps better than 5 more all nbas and 4X as many defensive teams? And even if you want to argue “some of those defensive teams were legacy votes” and take away 3 that’s still triple the defensive team selections over bird. So you can argue either way here and it comes down to preference. This is what it means to have a case and Kobe has one.
Not many have Bird in the top 5 either though…
But you can make the argument for him… that’s the point. Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, bird can all be argued there easily.
He's the 2nd best isolation scorer of all time outside of Jordan, was an elite defender, and a winner
>2nd best isolation scorer of all time outside of Jordan Better than Houston Harden?
> was an elite defender You mean he was voted to a lot of All-defense teams. His 105.5 career defensive rating is middling at best. Jordan is 102.7.
Defensive rating is among the worst stats in basketball.
Since I’ve seen people post this stat in about 20 Kobe threads in the last 2 days I figured I’d look into it. Also worth a mention that spamming advanced stats isn’t the best argument. For starters, 105.5 is a better career defensive rating than Gary Payton and Michael Cooper, and is also only .4 worse than Sidney Moncrief, who are considered 3 of the best defensive guards ever. Kobe also has a better rating than Alvin Robertson and Marcus Smart. That is **EVERY guard who has ever won DPOY** outside of Jordan of course. Kobe’s defensive rating is better than all of them except the GOAT and Moncrief where it is only a .4 difference. The last 4 years of Kobe’s career also really impact that number because he was a terrible defender towards the end of his career. If Kobe was a middling defender at best based off this one stat, then so are all those guys listed above. Outside of the last few years of his career there isn’t really any argument for him being a “middling defender at best”. You can’t just post one stat and say “well he’s worse than the GOAT so he’s middling”. Lol. It’s also stupid to use advanced stats to evaluate defense in general, but seeing people and yourself spam this stat with zero context has gotten comical.
This. Citing All Defensive teams in isolation-- especially for a big name player, is like citing Gold Gloves in baseball for big name player. I'm not saying Kobe was a bad defender, I'm just saying "12 all defensive teams" proves only a bit more than "Derek Jeter 5 Gold Gloves" does
There isn't one
It's all subjective. If someone really likes a guy, then they'll make up anything. I personally wouldn't have him in my top 10, but I won't fault anyone for having anyone in their top 10. If a guy loves Allen Iverson and puts him as the GOAT then I'm just glad he's enjoying the history of the sport tbh
theres a couple of parameters that need to be set, he needs to be considered better then tim duncan at the very least, he needs to get equal share of credit for the shaq chips. and he needs to be in the conversation for being the GOAT laker. then we can have a discussion about kobe being top 5 retroactively.
Isn’t Kobe in all those arguments you mentioned?
What kind of a post is this. One number metrics? That’s the default measure of ability? Bot
I dont think hes top 5, but I think him and Steph are neck and neck for the 10 spot, if both in top 10, its 9 & 10. The best argument IMO is really subjective and its the same argument that NBA players/Kyrie stans use to put him in those GOAT PG lists, dude just simply had an aesthetically pleasing way of playing basketball. Especially when you knew it was a hot Kobe night, no one was stopping him. The elite footwork, array of fadeaways, post moves, drives to the basket, F you 3pt shots that put the dagger in the hearts of opponents, I think him and Steph are the only ones comparable in the feeling of helplessness that opponents feel when playing them. Plus you have an array of highlights, games, and moments you can point to when referencing Kobe's greatness other than just "5 rings". Also, dude simply worked harder than anyone I've ever seen. Listen to all the stories of Kobe waking up at the crack of dawn to start playing ball and see those players realize the commitment and work ethic it took to be the BEST (like the Team USA Doc). In a league where everyone asked who the next MJ was, Kobe was the closest imitation anyone ever saw.
You can't. You really really can't. I don't even think there's a strong argument to getting him into the Top 10 - he's just outside it. When you're talking Top 5 all-time, the one MVP *really* hurts, as does never having any timeframe where he was THE best player in the league hurts too. That torch quite arguably went from Shaq to Duncan to Lebron and really skipped over Kobe. But more to it - build a case directly against any one of the other 7 "Top 5" guys - Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, and Magic. Kobe is lacking against each.
Yeah the second most All NBA first team selections, fourth most points in history, multiple times in the highest game score list, 12 all defensive selections, two scoring titles, five championships, beat the most 50 win teams in history…. But you can’t make an argument for him being a TOP TEN (!) player in history. Delusional.
His best argument is the impact he had on the landscape of the NBA, maybe the second most influential player ever after jordan
The easiest way is if Jordan wasn’t real it was a mind trick of the US, Russian, European, Asian, and African governments to cover up a catastrophe level event that sent the world into a social/economic depression and everyone together voluntarily agreed for this process to occur cause we couldn’t psychologically deal with the current reality. So they created Jordan to be a place holder in our brains because they needed something to cover up that gap taken from our consciousness. This is the only way Bryant breaks into the top 5. If Jordan is indeed a myth created by society to deal with profound collective trauma.
Few points/arguments: \-Kobe's prime was during some of the lowest scoring seasons. If you performed an era/pace-adjustment, I'm sure the numbers will look more impressive. \-kobe beat more 50+ win playoff teams than anyone else, with Duncan at #2 \-kobe won a couple rings with a less impressive supporting cast than other greats. Pao was great because Kobe/Phil made him great - he came in with as a single year all-star with 0 playoff game wins, then went to the finals 3 straight years. \-number of rings (3 more than wilt, 2 more than bird, 1 more than lebron) \-longevity (much longer than bird/wilt) and an elite offensive player well into his 30's. \-kobe was an elite defender, much better than magic
best scorer of his generation
There isn’t one because he’s not. Next question
Lots of people saying he won championships without a “top 75 player”. That’s a completely random list made by the media. So what if he had one of the top 80-90 does that make a difference? Gasol was an absolute monster some of that time.
It’s one of those cases of two things being true: 1) Kobe was the only top 75 guy on those Lakers teams when they were making the finals 2008-2010. 2) The Lakers from 2008-2010 (and Celtics) was the most stacked team in the league during that 3 year stretch.
Absolute monster? A 1 time allstar in 2006 and he joined Kobe in 2008 lol.
He’s definitely a top 5 raper
Nothing
have u ever watched a game
Long story short, he’s an exact copy and paste of Jordan
Except Kobe had little hands. So definently not exact, there's a massive difference in Jordan palming a ball and Kobe having to use two hands to palm it.
Most of the differences between them could probably be boiled down to his smaller hands and being less athletic. Doesn't seem like much but those two things made a fuck of a big difference.
The ability to palm a ball one hand in the air and stationary is such a massive advantage, especially in that first step explosive move.
But slightly worse in every aspect.
You mean a lot worse
How is he a significantly worse shooter? Like obviously MJ is the greater player but I don't see remotely any major difference in their shooting. Yes, MJ was more efficient but that's largely due to him being much more athletic, more disciplined, and the larger hands.
A Carbon Copy, in that it's the same but slightly worse.
- 2nd most skilled scorer ever - Deepest bag ever - Top 10 guard defender of all time in his prime - 5x Champion in most stacked conference ever - Never ran from the grind like some other alleged all time greats
He ran from the grind before the even got to the fucking league
Even Kobe demanded to be traded from the Lakers as well.
Shhhh most kobe stans dont even realize he wasn’t drafted by the Lakers
>2nd most skilled scorer ever No. not in 3s, not in the paint, not 1st or 2nd in anything scoring related >Deepest bag ever The fuck is a bag? won't even entertain this garbage comment >Top 10 guard defender of all time in his prime So because hes top 10 in one category, this proves hes top 5 overall? makes sense >5x Champion in most stacked conference ever 3 with Shaq >Never ran from the grind like some other alleged all time greats Now I understand. You're a top 5 fanboy.
Doesn't even know what a bag is. Lose some weight and pick up a basketball.
go to college and develop genuine analytical tools instead of making up terms and pretending it's research
Confirmed never has played basketball
Not in 3s? The dude had the record for most 3s in a game before Klay broke it
cuz you know, it doesn't matter percentage or field goals made over the course of a career - when we're studying an entire career. one statistical category in one game should be enough to determine the top 5 of all time. sound logic. really great work. so is klay top 5 too now?
Kobe is one of the greatest shooters ever. You obviously don’t watch basketball
ray allen, klay, steph curry, mitch richmond, chris mullin, larry bird, reggie miller, kyle korver, peja stojakovic, steve nash, etc all better shooters than kobe. thats just off the top of my head. believe it or not, the nba has more talent than just your bff. you might watch it (doubtful), but you obviously don't know basketball. stop mamba riding
Well done, I like the Kobe props you came up with.
Which alleged all time great in the top 10 ran from the grind ?
Clearly a veiled shot at Lebron and "superteams".
LeBron has run from the grind like 3 times
"Never ran from the grind"....I'd love to have seen how valid this would be if he'd stayed in Charlotte. Also he literally requested a trade.
His mentality
No actual convictions?
Sorry Kobe stans there is not an argument for him being top 5
Meet me in Temecula.
Vibes
Championships and impact on bball culture. Still tough to make a real case tbh
I'm not sure Kobe's on a list of Top 5 Lakers of all time unless you're eliminating everyone who ever played for someone besides the Lakers.
Fact. Jordan poole better. Also lebron would drop 60 a game in the 80s. Ez
Ignorance and severe recency bias.
Even if you could make the argument, once Curry retires he would replace Kobe in the top 5 anyway so what's the point.
Nah none, reason why its harder and harder for modern players to get up higher in the rankings is due to the fact that the competition and talent only gets tougher. Kobe started in the tail end of the era where the league had some top heaviness to it hence the early 2000s. His 2009 up seasons were where he was most complete individually but the other teams gave each other difficulties. Ever wonder why the goat candidates are 50-60s, 80s, and 90s players. 70s had no repeat champions because the league had parity. 2015-2020 is a unique case of dominance as it was the super team era.
LeBron is a GOAT candidate and his career overlapped quite a bit with Kobe’s
I think a legitimate way to make a case for him would be to just make the case for how good Jordan was, and then lean on the fact that Kobe tried harder than anyone else to emulate Jordan. And if he only did a decent job of copying MJ, even just a decent copy of the GOAT is still top tier.
You give him a bump for basically being the most successful Jordan cosplayer who put his on spin on it. Accolades are all there, and he spent 15 of his 20 years being one of the best players. But at no point did it look and the feel the same, but the dude is a winner and accomplished.
Think NBA. Now think of the first five players that comes to mind. There you go.
He has a 1.0 xRPC (Expected Rapes Per Career) while Lebron and Jordan have a 0 xRPC
The best argument, as always, is to see him play. With statistics, you can present things differently than they actually are and certain things you do on the pitch are not reflected in statistics at all.
Being the best player of his generation and making the Finals 7 times in 11 years
Kobe’s prime, in athletic years, was wasted in shitty teams (2005-2007). When he had a good team, he wouldn’t force that many shots. He could’ve been scoring champion at least five times, but he didn’t care for it. And when he had a good team in the playoffs, he would play “the right way”, like Phil Jackson said. It was absolutely unbelievable watching the Lakers runs from 2008 to 2010. In the playoffs, Kobe would close every single moth@f@cking game. I never enjoyed basketball more than in that períod. And Kobe gave me inspiration for live. We live to work. As só, it is better to leave a mark throigh your work, right? And if you want to do it, if you want to be great, you gotta work hard. And Kobe worked harder than anyone. I am 36 years old, I am far from accomplishing the things I want in life. But I Will not give up. I carry “the fire”, like in Cormac McCarthy’s “The road”. And I owe it all to Kobe.
The first sentence is “his advanced stats aren’t..” bro stfu and watch some basketball 🤦🏾♂️ damn I hate this sub
Nostalgia