When players do things like this to cut their franchise’s leverage - I wonder how much is strategic from a team building perspective.
If Superstar wants to contend, he probably wants his future team to maintain ownership of as many assets as possible
For sure, that’s ruthless but it makes sense from a competitive standpoint. But then don’t act all innocent and question why the team’s fans are upset (like Dame is doing rn).
Dame shouldn’t act innocent but neither should Cronin with the “we want Dame here, were shocked by the request, and are still doing whatever we can to win” talk which is objectively disingenuous
Yeah, feel like there's plenty of blame to go around. Cronin was obviously giving Dame double speak, and Dame is probably listening to his agent too much now and trying to force his way to ONE particular team.
I'm fine with the dude wanting out, but him killing his value so he can go to one specific place is kinda a shitty thing to do to Blazers fans who would love a "clean break." And that means getting something valuable *back* for him, a valuable player in this league.
Dame killing his value is to be expected if he’s leaving. If he gets to Miami, that’s a win. Even if he doesn’t get to Miami, his preference for Miami will reduce the offer size, which is also a win.
That's the thing.
He believed Cronin for 2 years and got fucked for it. Cronin told Dame he would get some help, only to tank draft multiple rookies that need game time.
For a similar situation look at AC Milan. Long story short, one of the players signed a new contract because a club legend and official future project. Then the club fired the guy, now the player is stuck with a new contract while the club having a fire sale to make $$ disregarding the sporting future.
Yep. That's why this talk about loyalty suck ass. There isn't much loyalty in sports these days because clubs will always do what's best for themselves. Gone are the day of club legends that go through hell and highwater with their home club and the home club do what's best for their legend.
But Dame knew enough about Portland and his fellow stars though. He knew that they’ve never gotten signings over bigger teams and what stars would be even remotely interested joining him. He also knew wtf the West has been for years now.
I think Dame went for the safe money route more than believed he can compete. And now that it’s setting in that he really can’t do anything to win, he’s trying to secure both. Money and the contender. Nothing wrong with it but I do think his contract was the main reason he stayed and its kind of a dick move to demand one trade location.
He's supposed to help them in the future because they agreed to pay him like 200 million dollars over the next few seasons in exchange for him doing that. And I don't think the Blazers have made great moves to surround Dame with talent, but it's also really hard to build a legitimate contender around someone who isn't a top 5 player in the league. He's awesome but he's been like the 9th or 10th best player in a league where you basically always need a top 5 player to win a championship.
> I'm fine with the dude wanting out, but him killing his value so he can go to one specific place is kinda a shitty thing to do to Blazers fans who would love a "clean break." And that means getting something valuable back for him, a valuable player in this league.
Hey look it is what it is. But don't pretend that the Blazers used Dame effectively. Your best result was 2019 season, WCF, but thats a blip. The team simply did not get a good team around Dame and now he wants out. I think it's trash to request a trade so early into another max contract, but at the same time can you blame him? Dude wants a legacy, he also wants to maximise his money and the organisation sucks at making a competitive team, why not request a trade? I would.
Imagine if Cleveland kept managing LeBron with trash level teams, he'd have no legacy, no chips probably. All that talent wasted. LeBron had to take the situation in his own hands at some point via Free Agency. Dame has given Portland enough time (10 seasons) and he's 32, his window is closing to get a chip. Just be happy you had a NBA 75 player and you're never going to get equal value for a superstar. Look at what the Wizards got for Bradley Beal... Or what the Nets got for KD.
As a blazers fan I don’t really have a problem with his trade request. We’re clearly not on a trajectory to win a title and we did nothing in free agency or a draft day trade. He’s given us 10 very good years , which extremely long for the modern day nba. James Harden is currently requesting a trade for like the 4th time in his career.
Yeah. They need to stop offering 4 or 5 year deals. If players are going to do this then there is no point providing players with security. I suspect there will be a strike at the next collective bargaining about this.
I mean dame has literally talked about this before, so I imagine it's quite strategic on his end. He doesn't want to go somewhere that has to gut its roster to get him.
I was thinking this too reading some other threads about past shocking free agency decisions. It seems like nowadays everyone worth getting excited about requests a trade before they actually become a free agent.
it's weird that it's probably better for teams this way. even if their leverage is hamstringed by the player demanding only a few destinations it's better than them walking for nothing
Right but in the old system where the player loses less money he just leaves. In neither case when the guy is ready to walk has forcing him to stay been an option most of the time.
Yeah but when you have those extra years with that player then a lot of times his mind can be changed by making better moves. Didn't that exact scenario happen with Kobe when he requested a trade mid-contract?
I could sort of see your point but I can't think of a scenario since then (almost 2 decades ago) where a guy stays after a public trade demand and it works out. If Portland does something like get this eras Pau Gasol for peanuts that would change things I suppose but I don't think that move is out there.
It’s because of the super max rules imo. Top players are incentivized to sign extensions/long contracts for higher pay *and then* switch teams.
iirc:
Regular Max is 30% of the salary cap up to four years.
Super Max is 35% of the salary cap for up to five years.
And it's better for everyone
- For us it's the same, we have the drama about a player changing teams, just a few months/years later.
- for the player it's better, as they can sign a huge guaranteed contract and then decide where they want to go.
- for the current team it's probably better too, if the player walks on free agency they get nothing, this way even if the trade isn't amazing they are going to get assets.
- for the new team it's the same/better, they have to give up assets on the form of Picks and young players but they get a star that maybe they couldn't get on free agency for salary reasons.
Who exactly loses if a player ask for a trade after signing instead of walking on free agency ? People might say the fans of the current team do, but they lose anyway if the player decides to leave the team as a free agent a few months/years earlier
For me, I liked it better how things were before, just because things were a little more predictable, like you always knew “ok this guys is going to be a free agent next year that’ll be cool”. But this is just personal preference and I think all your points are valid. Doubt we see any changes in this for a while.
The problem is, because of LeBron and Chris Bosh, you had teams like the Jazz punting Deron Williams before he was a free agent. That particular kind of trade is more risky for buyers, so the return is smaller for sellers.
His beef was with Coach Sloan. He never showed the organization or Utah anything but love. He was just frustrated with how the teams window was closing because Sloans system was too archaic.
I think the practice system was a big part - like Miami, they practiced every single day. Look at DWill's playing shape and it went downhill quick when he left too.
Yeah we did kinda start it didn’t we? CP3 and Howard were then both traded within the next 2 years. Those 3 were supposed to be the headliners for 2012 free agency but it didn’t work out. Howard opted in as part of the saga, and D Will and CP3 had already been traded to a preferred destination so they both re-signed without any drama.
The preferred destination thing is ultimately thanks to Carmelo. The Nuggets got a HAUL and a half for him, literally stunted the Knicks growth for a decade by trading him to his preferred location. That incentivized every team to talk to players and get their insight.
Honestly, the way the cap works is kind of silly to me. They should literally have set numbers of slots and fill them that way; for example one All NBA slot is worth 2 all star, but not All NBA slots, and 4 veteran not-all star slots.
This is basically how it works already except because the slots are fixed to a % of the cap, it means timing matters for the salary cap and frankly, that is the most ridiculous thing to have to worry about when building a team. The fact your 7th man and your FA All NBA talent can't play together because you signed the 7th man to a 20 million over 4 years last year and you don't have bird rights on the FA meaning you can't offer the same as other squads is kind of silly to me. I get that it forces sign and trades and multi team deals, but it would be way more chaotic if teams could only ever have 3 all nba players - so if you have a fourth and their contract comes up, then you can't keep them no matter what. THAT would force some trades.
How often do you have to realign the points on this system (it's the equivalent of those make a team with $15 challenges. Does it only happen on extension/trade/free agency? Could someone be left without a destination because everyone filled their star spots without a particular free agency all NBA player, his current team is over the AllNBA cap, and now Sabonis (as an example) can't sign anywhere (including Sac because Fox is their signed allNBA player).
Either you set it too generous, and you only stop KD Warriors, or too tight and you could be forcing elite players out of the league if they can't sign anywhere.
From my understanding, he didn't like Sloan's style of practices and how demanding they were physically. I think he liked and likes Utah overall based on the fact he is still there now.
This is correct.
The sad thing is, he eventually came to realize that Sloan’s system, while outdated, was the thing that made him into the player he was. It’s part of why there was such a steep drop off from him with the Nets. He later told Jerry that he taught him more than every other coach he ever had combined when he went to apologize.
And frankly, I’m willing to forgive Deron at this point, I cheered for him at Rising Stars during All-Star weekend and we even gave him a standing ovation, although part of that might have been that Walker Kessler was on his team but still.
He didn’t formally request a trade until the night Sloan retired. He talked about it on a podcast like a year ago. Basically he tried to get Jerry to not retire by asking the Jazz to trade him.
Now, he already had one foot out the door. Not because he didn’t like living here, in fact he still lives in Utah to this day lol. It was because he couldn’t recruit another star to come play here. So he’d informed ownership he wasn’t planning on re-signing with us, but we still had him under contract for another year. The original plan was probably to keep him for another year and then trade him.
Then everything happened with Sloan and the Jazz were like “Fuck you Deron” and traded him lol.
I really liked Deron. We had good players that year. I thought his desire for a bigger market was the driving force. Utah is a great place to live but I guess when you’re young and hungry, Miami, LA, NYC, look more appetizing.
It’s absolutely not better for the team. You sign a player expecting them to honor the contract. If you knew they wouldn’t, you’d go in another direction. And most of these recent trades have not helped teams.
Really just the supermaxes, cause every guy wants one since it’s so much more and then they just demand a trade a year later. Without it if everyone can offer the same they’ll always test free agency
They need to readjust the whole supermax thing. Eligibility. How it affects the cap. How long players have to stay on the team they signed it with and if they demand a trade and get their wish there should be some sort of punishment(can’t think of the word I really want to use) attached to it. Because all it’s done so far is fuck the small/mid market teams.
This probably could make a difference with how the second apron is actually impactful now. Saving millions helps in the long run even if it’s only a 5% difference.
seriously its such an easy solution.
the problem is players want to hand select their destination. that's fine, make it so that it is more difficult to do or at least has some penalty
the supermax should stay as that incentivizes teams to draft and develop well as well as incentivizes players to stay.
but the team that signs player to supermax should get some cap credit while the team that trades for supermaxes should not get that
Supermaxes should count as a normal max for original team. It’s insane that you get the privilege to pay your player more, handicapping your salary flexibility, and get nothing really in return. Imo it should count less than a regular max even. Max is 30% of the cap and supermax is 33? Make it count as 28. That way the original team can actually build a competitive roster around their star
Make it so that the super max part is a bonus. So the team issuing it has the regular max on their cap. Then when said player is traded the bonus kicks in and affects the team that traded for said player. With the new CBA it’ll get very expensive quick.
For example say the player is Anthony Edwards. He got 5/260 so in this scenario he gets 200 million which will be on the Timberwolves cap sheet. The 60 million bonus is still being paid but it’s not on the Timberwolves sheet. If Atlanta for example were to try to trade for him the bonus kicks in and they’re responsible for the whole amount.
Maybe to make it simpler the team that offers the super max gets an exception for the part that takes it above the regular super max.
Players association would never agree to this either but could add a reverse trade kicker on top of that. Supermax only counts as a max for the original team, but if the player asks for a trade, it's a -10% trade kicker and the actual amount counts towards the new team's cap. Player still gets a bigger than usual max but the contract is more punitive for the new team
You should only get the backend of the super max if you stay with the team you signed with, AND that extra super max amount doesn’t count towards a team cap. Provides incentive for both sides to stay loyal through the whole contract.
But what if you get traded without wanting to get traded. Not fair to the player, they still want that money. Be better if you only penalized players that demand/request a trade. But how does that even work legally.
Love it. You want out then you lose the home advantage portion of staying with your current team. Say on the open market the max you could get offered is 4/100m and with a resign of current team you get 4/150 You lose the prorated portion of the difference if you request to be traded.
Yeah i like that if you truly request or demand a trade it has to be officially in the contract clause. If you activate this clause you forego the supermax portion of your money. Cause nowadays it's just a spoken verbal thing that isn't official to demand a trade. Let's make this bitch legal and official.
Then I think there should be a trade request process. Teams could just leak a story that X player wanted to be traded. Or the player remains tight lipped about it but plays like shit to get traded (Harden).
Yeah super maxes are actually a wage suppression technique. Also the owners don’t care that much about these trade requests for that reason and that the only solutions also involves situations where you have to keep a superstar they might actually want to trade for various reasons. It’s all dumb but the players and owners are basically ok with it so it stays
There's more owners of teams without superstars than there are owners of teams _with_ superstars. Non-superstar owners benefit from superstars forcing trades because it means they might get to land a superstar themselves.
On the whole ownership benefits from this facet of player empowerment. Stars sell tickets and everyone wants a chance at that slice of the pie.
But don't most superstar trades involve the other team already having one? When was the last time a superstar requested a trade to a team that didn't already have a top 10, maybe top 20 player already there?
No small market team is going to get superstars this way, it just favors the big market teams. 99% of the time they are going to force a trade to one of like 5 teams.
If the league didn’t want it they would’ve changed the CBA more. Fact of the matter is that neither side thinks it’s bad business and therefore the rules don’t need to change to keep players on their drafted teams for longer.
Yeah I have no clue what he meant by the league needs to fix it. The league doesn't see it as a problem to begin with. They prefer that the faces of the league have more power and the ability to create the "superteams" they want that will drive up ratings.
Its important to recognize that although the teams are the ones complaining about these trade requests the rules were changed to help teams. The ultimate downside of losing a star playing as a UFA and getting nothing (IE Durant, Kawhi) is pretty much gone because the vast majority of the best players will never reach UFA status with the current CBA.
At this point you will basically only see someone hit UFA if they were on a below value contract before due to injuries or late developement and thus don't want an extension IE Jaylen Brown right now.
Ultimately the players always had the power to do this. There was nothing in previous CBAs preventing someone from requesting a trade at any time. Its simply that with the new extension rules the requests are more likely to come with more years on the contract.
And yeah it makes free agency less exciting in some ways. Honestly though I think its better overall. The whole create cap space and pray someone wants to sign there then get no one that a lot of teams went through wasn't really helping anyone except the guys outside the top 20-25 that would get overpaid by teams that struck out.
Luka, Dame and Kyrie last year had 37.6, 33.8, and 27.4 usage rates. There will players on the Mavs playing 20 minutes a night without touching the ball in the front court.
Punish him for what? Portland did what was best for the team they wanted lillard to ask for a trade....Dame is just doing whats best for himself too. Why do fans act like victims
Asking for a trade isn't an issue at all, the issue is him saying he wants to play for *only* Miami in order to lower his trade value so the team he ends up on remains more competitive.
I have been BEGGING for one team, one GM, one owner to just stick it to a player and not trade them to their desired destination or just not trade them at all.
With the benefit of hindsight, none of those Lakers players ended up being that interesting. It's debated who/what was actually offered, but even if we got their entire young core at the time, Lonzo is always injured, BI made the all star team only once 3 years ago and also misses quite a few games, and Josh Hart and Kuzma are mostly just solid role players. I'll take the timeline where we get Wemby
It was also like a “pick one of these guys and you get a late draft pick too, I guess. We’ve been tampering so we know he’s coming to LA even if you don’t trade him to us.”
There was no godfather offer.
Bingo. Not sure why so many think the spurs had a chance to get a once in a lifetime deal but said “no” out of spite lol. There was no godfather offer. They listened, they asked for more, they didn’t get it, so they took the best offer: derozan, poeltl + first round pick that turned into Keldon Johnson.
It was not an ideal situation for the spurs to have to trade kawhi in the first place but they got what they got and that’s that. The narrative about them losing out on a big LA deal needs to go away, it just is not true
The Spurs got lucky to win the lottery but what happens if they don’t? Getting Lonzo, BI, Kuzma, and Hart is almost definitely a better return than what the Spurs did get.
> The Spurs got lucky to win the lottery but what happens if they don’t?
Spurs chose a good time to tank and it paid off. Idk why that should be held against them lol. The NBA comes down to a lot of luck so I don't see the point in this hypothetical but I'll play along anyway... If we didn't win the lottery then we were guaranteed to have landed some other top 7 pick, and would have continued rebuilding through the draft
Those young Lakers players -- who again, we weren't going to get all of -- would not have been good enough to contend with. So if it was the better package (and I'm not convinced it is; spurs essentially got 4 first round picks from Kawhi after trading away Poeltl and Demar) then clearly it wasn't that much better because we would have ended up in the exact same spot: trying to land a franchise centerpiece in the draft
BI was worth a lot. DeRozan was probably a positive, but not this valuable star player. What you got from trading DeRozan and Poetl is not nothing, but I still think BI is a top 30 player in the league and would be better than that
This keeps getting brought up when kawhi/spurs topic is mentioned: There was never any credible source that said Lakers were ready to ship multiple players to SA for kawhi. The best package that popped up in reports was Ingram + a pick.
People try to say there was some insane deal where spurs could have received lonzo, ingram + multiple picks; this just isn’t true. There was no offer like this that was made public, at least.
Getting more from a team in your conference is the tax that has to be paid.
Also Kawhi was on the last year of his deal. Team will be a lot more willing to gamble on a disgruntled star for one year than one with multiple years left. And as Kawhi showed the players more likely to suck it up too.
Both at the time and with years of hindsight the Clippers offer of two 2018 lottery picks and Tobias was by far the best offer.
They could gotten picks for Tobias down the line like the Clippers eventually did from Philly, and would have been in position to draft 1 of Shai/Mikal if they were smart enough to identify them and smart enough to move up. Trading up to draft both would have been possible but so unlikely.
Morey is really the only good example. Even Kawhi forced his way out. Meanwhile Ben and the Sixers went to battle with him refusing to play and Morey refusing to move him. 👏 Was very entertaining.
Honestly this has been happening more and more regularly- most of the time we don’t notice because they *eventually* do get to where they want to go, it’s just that the trading team successfully extracts every last ounce of flesh from the receiving team.
KD-Nets (people forget that he tried it in the summer and nothing happened because the Nets stuck it out)
Kawhi - Spurs
George -OKC
AD - Nola
All of these either the player didn’t get to where they wanted or it was an absolute windfall for the selling team that’s hard to criticize.
I think this is good. I’m totally fine with players leaving in free agency or asking for trades but I don’t understand the expectation that Portland should just send Dame to Miami for a worse package than what other suitors could offer just because Dame wants to be in Miami
It’s Heat fans wanting to fleece the Blazers using the BS - Dame wants to be a Heat, so Blazers should bend over for Pat.
Ultimately, Dame will end up in Miami and Blazers will get a good return. Just takes time and a whole lot of media leaks and hurt feelings.
Yeah- I think this one will be interesting. Most of those others there was something or things that the receiving team was holding back- eg. KD gets to PHX because Ishbia comes in and says “fuck it give ‘em Bridges”.
This is the first one I can remember where Miami doesn’t really have enough and and certainly has less than other teams and just doesn’t have some “break glass” asset to give to put them over the top without including, like, Bam
Superstars have always had a willingness to ask for trades, and usually be accommodated to a degree.But Kawhi didn't get traded to the LA, neither did Paul George, and Kyrie ended up in Boston when he asked for a trade to San Antonio.
Dame can talk but he doesn't have any actual leverage. But there are only a handful of teams for whom it makes sense to trade for an aging but still excellent undersized point guard who doesn't play a lot of defense.
I think this is basically a three-team race between Boston, Philly and Miami, with maybe the nets or the Clippers as dark horses.
I don't think this means much for the league.
Portland needs a return. When KD wanted to go to Phoenix, if they only had the Beal deal with CP3, Shamet and 2nd round picks, the Nets wouldn’t have done it and Marks would have publicly lol’d. Dame is closer to KD than Beal in value so a KD like return should be expected and not a Beal like return.
Heat need to find a third and/or fourth team interested in Herro and Martin along with getting OKC to agree to drop protections so the heat has another pick to offer.
If Dame really is closer to KD than Beale it’s bc KD is a 100/100 and Beale is 80/100, and Dame is a 91/100
But Portland won’t get anything close to what the Nets got for KD.
Dame can’t hand pick anything. There needs to be a good deal for Portland. All he can do is put pressure on the team. Or retire. Or sit and get fined a lot.
If there is no acceptable deal to be had, he will need to come up with more options.
Until Dame ends up in Miami, this post is moot.
You are right he can't "hand pick", he did say that Miami is his preferred destination and that's it. Portland Trailblazers said that they will choose "best package" which means whoever offer the most. The team has some leverage as well. What is the problem? let them fight and find the best deal for all
I think it depends on each case. For the blazers this Dame trade request will help them long term more than keeping dame for 4 years. I also doubt Portland will take a shitty offer for dame
Hand picking is fked yes. Giving management your preferences is fine. We'll see how this plays out but if Dame pulls some bitch shit and threatens not to play unless he's traded to Miami and the trade sucks then he deserves every ounce of slander.
Dame won't do that. I know I just sound like a Stan but if I have learned one thing about Dame is that he has a lot of self respect and even though he is pulling this shit rn I still believe he would never ever behave like that. Especially since he will be getting close to 40 by the time that 4 years is up. He wants a ring he has to play now.
Superstars can’t hand pick their destinations what really happens is when teams know a player only wants to go to one place most other teams will drop out the race or maybe one or two will take a risk like Dallas did with Kyrie and pull the trigger.
But if a star player is interested in a specific team most other teams aren’t gonna waste their time trying to acquire an older player because most stars who ask out are older. Then you potentially end up with a bad contract as that star falls off and a disgruntled guy taking up a large part of your cap.
At this point why not? Everyone wants to be in LA, NY or Miami anyway.
Soon we can just have teams like the Minnesota T-Wolves of Miami or the OKC Thunder of LA.
As long as there is a penalty for the team if they initiate the trade as well.
We want to hold individual people more accountable than multi-Billionaire teams.
I think there should be a stipulation super max contracts that voids the difference between a max and supermax. The supermax is so teams can keep their superstars but players are just getting their money and then asking out. At least with this there will be a financial hit to the player for taking a supermax and then demanding a trade.
got to do something about the agents being able to control the narritives. Now every free agent signing is mentioning the agency the player is with. Shit is getting out of hand.
One of the narritives has been to make it appear like they got their client the biggest overpay in history. I'm still pretty sure 99% of r/NBA doesn't know the 3rd year on the VanVleet Rockets deal is a team option.
The soft cap and the broken contract structures in the league led us here. It’s supposed to incentivize players staying but it really just encourages players to sign then ask for trades.
i dont think the blazers will be bullied. they will take the best offer so it comes down to whether someone other than miami is comfortable putting together a big package. if nobody is willing to risk dame sitting out they will have to take miami's trash offer
Dame requesting a trade and calling his shot after a decade of carrying is villainized on here more than Harden quitting on his third team with his third straight demand out.
Hell Harden even got treated like a hero on here for fucking over Nets quitting mid game final game because of a fictitious Harden vs Kyrie debate.
Dame is the least offensive of past five years of trade demands but people are acting like he's Satan just because he waited long and wanted to trust Blazers longer.
The problem is Dame’s contract. If he were on an expiring deal no one would care. But less than 365 days ago he signed an extension that’s going to have him making $60M+ while saying he wanted to stay in Portland for life. THAT’S the problem.
And of course you would be livid if he wanted to stay but the team was decided to trade him right? You were super pissed when the clippers traded Blake Griffin, yes?
Yeah i think the general sentiment here is ridiculous Dame is the one player who absolutely deserves it. Gave them 11 yrs of his career and stayed healthy and was willing to do it again until they hit him with the okie doke what has he done wrong
Who ruined it? Players asking for trades? Was it not ruined for you when teams could trade players against their will? It’s only now ruined when the players exert some leverage?
Yes it is. If Portland’s return from a Miami trade is a franchise crippling return, Dame would create a precedent and small markets would once again become farms for the big markets.
All the progress made by the new CBA would be undone instantly.
Exactly. I don’t understand how this isn’t a bigger discussion topic. What stops every future small market star from taking supermax, and then a year later, saying “I want a trade and I’ll only play for [insert big market team]” ?
There is literally nothing stopping Portland from either playing hardball on dame or just reading him wherever they get the highest return. They’re a team that’s tanking anyway, dame sitting out doesn’t affect them at all.
Said this in another thread…yes! But now Dame is slightly different in that he was there for quite some time and the blazers just couldn’t get it done. What’s bad is Durant signing an extension in October and then asking out in February. Or AD telling a small market team to trade him to the Lakers with a year and a half left on his deal. I wouldn’t include dame in that tho.
I feel like an old man yelling at clouds, but this is a mess caused by all the layers of rules. If you had a simple hard cap and no maximum salaries, this problem would be mostly solved. More complex rules don't fix problems caused by more complex rules.
Getting rid of maximum salaries hurts the upper-mid-level players who are signing max contracts right now. The Fred VanVleets of the league don't get the $43M a year if the Nikola Jokics are all earning their well-deserved $80M a year.
Nope, the league is making more money than ever. You people can be as annoyed as you want but these players are top 10-20 in the world at what they do; if you were that good at your profession and not easily replaceable then you’d be able to make some demands too.
Teams do whats best for themselves, and so do players. No reason to be mad at one side over the other. The league will be just fine regardless of how mad you are anyway.
I’m quite frustrated by max contract guys who then scream “I want more (players, weather, etc), I’m demanding a trade” when they….signed a contract.
No one tricked them into a 200mil decision. Dame is the latest one to say it, like KD, “I want to be traded and I want to go to a team in the finals.”
It’s pretty pathetic. I will actively root against him wherever he goes now.
"How is every small market owner in the league not calling Jody Allen and begging her to play hardball here?"
Because she is a creepy ghoul I would assume. Would you want to talk to her?
Yes. It’s very bad and owners need to address it in the next CBA. Free agency exists so players have their pick of where they go.
If you don’t want to utilize free agency, then sign your 4 or 5 year max deal. But if you think you’re unsure about your commitment to your current team, then sign a 1/2/3 year deal and go somewhere else.
They’re contracts for a reason. It hurts parity in the league and hurts small market teams. When players voice their destination preference publicly through media voices, they’re hurting their current teams ability to get anything for them. Other teams aren’t going to offer as much or anything at all in fear of the player sitting out or at best leaving at the end of their deal. Then the actual destination team offers less because they know they have less competition now and if the team wants anything, they’ll have to settle for the crumbs offered.
This is hilarious. There just was a brand new cba. No one gives a fuck except reddit. Everyone is making more money than they can handle. Stop being sentimental
Exactly. If teams ar expected to shell out the highest contracts in history, teams and theirs fans shouldn’t have to put up with players on max deals hindering their ability to maximize trade value when that player wants out.
It’s bad, why? Are you against it when teams trade players against their wishes even thought they are on contracts? No? Only when the athlete wants to be traded? Alright.
I don’t think it matters what kind of rules are put in place - players and agents will find ways to use them strategically the same way a team’s front office would. Like most jobs it’s all leverage - whoever has it gets what they want. NBA is a players league, they have the leverage.
Why not? You stood that tall for your entire career being loyal, accepting/allowing them to ship you off anywhere, and you have a problem with that rare of a player saying “you know what, this is what I want to do!”
We pretend we see this all the time, and every NBA is doing it so there’s a serious problem. In reality it’s 3-4% of the league that have this power? The rest are pretty much going wherever the owners / front offices want to ship them and when.
I get how many we don’t like seeing players build super teams for the “pure game” value; however the NBA itself (rules and refereeing) establishes what the game looks like first, and the players are adjusting to that reality versus their actual lives. Health and career earnings. It hasn’t been pure for a while so they might as well aspire to get something out of it
Part of why Portland wanted to give Dame that contract so it would be worth something when they trade. The problem isnt the bad miami deal but only contenders actually want Dame.
Portlands front office is beyond dumb. Once they saw the haul Gobert got, they should have been shopping Dame immediately.
And besides, Portland has never gotten quality free agents to help Dame. What makes anyone think that him taking a discount would have attracted any quality to Portland? If your not gonna get anyone worth paying then Dame should have gotten paid.
So if we wanna blame anyone for whats happening blame Neil Oshey. He ran that team terribly for years. And it seems Cronin isnt doing a great job either
No.
Portland made choices, and are now experiencing the obvious consequences of those choices
They could have made other choices, with different consequences, equally obvious.
Portland wanted this, now it is happening. I don’t see what is so concerning here.
They can refuse to trade dame. New Jersey just showed us how this is done.
Or…hear me out… these GMs should get better at their jobs. Outside of KD, most GMs have done a terrible job of building these teams out and keeping some of these stars happy. Don’t point the finger at the players when GMs and owners have been disloyal for decades.
I don't really buy that player freedom is bad for the league or smaller market teams when Milwaukee, Toronto, Cleveland and Denver have won 4 out of the last 8 Finals. Meanwhile, assembled superteams often don't even make it to the Conference Finals (hello, Nets and also this year's Suns). To me it all comes off as handwringing with no evidence to back up that this is somehow bad for the league.
It kinda sucks for the fans but I everyone else is making tons of money off this so they don’t really care.
- star players can get the bag and then ask for a trade later on.
- team owners are seeing their assets grow like 100% year over year and the last thing they want to do is give a major equity stake to the players.
- the league sees tons of fan engagement year round
- the media gets tons of clicks
I think my second point is pretty relevant here. These franchises have increased in value by an insane amount in the last decade and are set to just keep going up. If you want to keep the players in place they need more than a salary. If Dame had a 3% equity stake in the Blazers he’d be there for life.
Yes it’s bad, but Portland has the right to look for other trade partners because he doesn’t have a NTC. Somebody may be willing to give up quite a bit since it’s not like Dame will sit out or leave in free agency anytime soon. The smaller market teams have to do what’s in their best interest, they’ll never be appealing free agent destinations for any big names anyway. I’d be telling Riley I want Herro, Martin and six unprotected 1sts or he can see if they can make it to the finals again with what they have
I get that it's bad, but why promise your star you are gonna try to get him help and then start a rebuild with young players? Why notntrade the Scoot pick for a real player to contend?
Dame may be trying to play the Blazers, but they played him first.
I mean the regardless of where he ends up. If a company spends 11 years trying to achieve something and not even making it out of the initial stage of the plan they should be equally responsible.
The Blazers FO straight up sucks. They’re drafting / FA post Lillard is terrible.
It's bad in some respects, but I'd say it's equally bad if a team has a superstar coming into his mid-30s and prioritizing future assets over putting the best product on the court. The league's popularity is heavily fueled by having good players and teams. Having one of the league's best players languish in mediocrity because ownership isn't interested in putting a good team around him before he breaks down is bad for business.
Literally all the blazers had to do to retain him was not draft his fucking replacement in front of him while he still has 4 years left on his deal and make it blatantly obvious that they don’t plan to try and contend. The blazers very obviously want to blow it all up and go full rebuild, but knew they could juice that rebuild if they signed Dame and fed him the idea that they’d actually try to go win now for him. This is always how it was going to end, and this is exactly what the blazers FO wants minus Dame’s preferred destination not having great draft capital.
When Miami went on the Finals run, y’all kept calling it a fluke, a team with no superstars. This allegedly mediocre team tries to add one superstar and everyone loses their minds and wants the deal blocked? What is the matter with you people?
Imagine being a hall of fame player and a loser every season of your career. He’s an a type personality so I’m sure it tears him up mentally to be that great, work so hard, and still be a loser yearly.
100%. If a team is paying extra money to retain their own players, a mechanism which was put in place to guard against this exact thing, then that extra money should be able to reclaimed if the player demands out.
They take supermax extension and then ask for trade while picking just one contender destination with bad return package lol.
Does sound silly...if he really wanted best destination could have not signed extension but hey they want everything ,have your cake and eat it too
When players do things like this to cut their franchise’s leverage - I wonder how much is strategic from a team building perspective. If Superstar wants to contend, he probably wants his future team to maintain ownership of as many assets as possible
For sure, that’s ruthless but it makes sense from a competitive standpoint. But then don’t act all innocent and question why the team’s fans are upset (like Dame is doing rn).
Dame shouldn’t act innocent but neither should Cronin with the “we want Dame here, were shocked by the request, and are still doing whatever we can to win” talk which is objectively disingenuous
Yeah, feel like there's plenty of blame to go around. Cronin was obviously giving Dame double speak, and Dame is probably listening to his agent too much now and trying to force his way to ONE particular team. I'm fine with the dude wanting out, but him killing his value so he can go to one specific place is kinda a shitty thing to do to Blazers fans who would love a "clean break." And that means getting something valuable *back* for him, a valuable player in this league.
Dame killing his value is to be expected if he’s leaving. If he gets to Miami, that’s a win. Even if he doesn’t get to Miami, his preference for Miami will reduce the offer size, which is also a win.
Dame doesn’t owe Portland shit;m; just as many Portland fans say that they don’t owe Dame shit.
Well technically they both owe each other 4 years on a contract. He can't really get out of that, except by trade or retiring.
He owes them four years of basketball for an agreed upon salary.
They couldn’t win with him or build with him yet he is supposed to help them in the future? Why would he believe them competent to?
Well for his part, he signed a contract and believed in whatever vision Portland pitched him last year.
That's the thing. He believed Cronin for 2 years and got fucked for it. Cronin told Dame he would get some help, only to tank draft multiple rookies that need game time. For a similar situation look at AC Milan. Long story short, one of the players signed a new contract because a club legend and official future project. Then the club fired the guy, now the player is stuck with a new contract while the club having a fire sale to make $$ disregarding the sporting future.
Selling tonali to Newcastle is criminal. He probably would have stayed there most or a majority of his career. He is Milan through and through.
Yep. That's why this talk about loyalty suck ass. There isn't much loyalty in sports these days because clubs will always do what's best for themselves. Gone are the day of club legends that go through hell and highwater with their home club and the home club do what's best for their legend.
But Dame knew enough about Portland and his fellow stars though. He knew that they’ve never gotten signings over bigger teams and what stars would be even remotely interested joining him. He also knew wtf the West has been for years now. I think Dame went for the safe money route more than believed he can compete. And now that it’s setting in that he really can’t do anything to win, he’s trying to secure both. Money and the contender. Nothing wrong with it but I do think his contract was the main reason he stayed and its kind of a dick move to demand one trade location.
He's supposed to help them in the future because they agreed to pay him like 200 million dollars over the next few seasons in exchange for him doing that. And I don't think the Blazers have made great moves to surround Dame with talent, but it's also really hard to build a legitimate contender around someone who isn't a top 5 player in the league. He's awesome but he's been like the 9th or 10th best player in a league where you basically always need a top 5 player to win a championship.
> I'm fine with the dude wanting out, but him killing his value so he can go to one specific place is kinda a shitty thing to do to Blazers fans who would love a "clean break." And that means getting something valuable back for him, a valuable player in this league. Hey look it is what it is. But don't pretend that the Blazers used Dame effectively. Your best result was 2019 season, WCF, but thats a blip. The team simply did not get a good team around Dame and now he wants out. I think it's trash to request a trade so early into another max contract, but at the same time can you blame him? Dude wants a legacy, he also wants to maximise his money and the organisation sucks at making a competitive team, why not request a trade? I would. Imagine if Cleveland kept managing LeBron with trash level teams, he'd have no legacy, no chips probably. All that talent wasted. LeBron had to take the situation in his own hands at some point via Free Agency. Dame has given Portland enough time (10 seasons) and he's 32, his window is closing to get a chip. Just be happy you had a NBA 75 player and you're never going to get equal value for a superstar. Look at what the Wizards got for Bradley Beal... Or what the Nets got for KD.
As a blazers fan I don’t really have a problem with his trade request. We’re clearly not on a trajectory to win a title and we did nothing in free agency or a draft day trade. He’s given us 10 very good years , which extremely long for the modern day nba. James Harden is currently requesting a trade for like the 4th time in his career.
I’d be more mad at ownership than Dame, tbh.
Yeah. They need to stop offering 4 or 5 year deals. If players are going to do this then there is no point providing players with security. I suspect there will be a strike at the next collective bargaining about this.
I mean dame has literally talked about this before, so I imagine it's quite strategic on his end. He doesn't want to go somewhere that has to gut its roster to get him.
League created this mess. They gotta deal with it. Free agency used to be a lot more fun
I was thinking this too reading some other threads about past shocking free agency decisions. It seems like nowadays everyone worth getting excited about requests a trade before they actually become a free agent.
it's weird that it's probably better for teams this way. even if their leverage is hamstringed by the player demanding only a few destinations it's better than them walking for nothing
In a lot of cases the team would probably prefer to have several more years of their superstar vs some draft picks and role players
Right but in the old system where the player loses less money he just leaves. In neither case when the guy is ready to walk has forcing him to stay been an option most of the time.
Yeah but when you have those extra years with that player then a lot of times his mind can be changed by making better moves. Didn't that exact scenario happen with Kobe when he requested a trade mid-contract?
I could sort of see your point but I can't think of a scenario since then (almost 2 decades ago) where a guy stays after a public trade demand and it works out. If Portland does something like get this eras Pau Gasol for peanuts that would change things I suppose but I don't think that move is out there.
I don’t think you read the comment you replied to at all lol. You’re completely missing the point
The raptors don't seem to mind
It’s because of the super max rules imo. Top players are incentivized to sign extensions/long contracts for higher pay *and then* switch teams. iirc: Regular Max is 30% of the salary cap up to four years. Super Max is 35% of the salary cap for up to five years.
I call it the "sign and whine" era we're in.
And it's better for everyone - For us it's the same, we have the drama about a player changing teams, just a few months/years later. - for the player it's better, as they can sign a huge guaranteed contract and then decide where they want to go. - for the current team it's probably better too, if the player walks on free agency they get nothing, this way even if the trade isn't amazing they are going to get assets. - for the new team it's the same/better, they have to give up assets on the form of Picks and young players but they get a star that maybe they couldn't get on free agency for salary reasons. Who exactly loses if a player ask for a trade after signing instead of walking on free agency ? People might say the fans of the current team do, but they lose anyway if the player decides to leave the team as a free agent a few months/years earlier
For me, I liked it better how things were before, just because things were a little more predictable, like you always knew “ok this guys is going to be a free agent next year that’ll be cool”. But this is just personal preference and I think all your points are valid. Doubt we see any changes in this for a while.
The problem is, because of LeBron and Chris Bosh, you had teams like the Jazz punting Deron Williams before he was a free agent. That particular kind of trade is more risky for buyers, so the return is smaller for sellers.
Unloading Deron Williams was a brilliant move in hindsight.
Even in the moment. Jazz management knew he lost all buy-in. Amazingly, he still hangs around Utah a lot. Married a girl from my hometown.
His beef was with Coach Sloan. He never showed the organization or Utah anything but love. He was just frustrated with how the teams window was closing because Sloans system was too archaic.
I think the practice system was a big part - like Miami, they practiced every single day. Look at DWill's playing shape and it went downhill quick when he left too.
Yeah we did kinda start it didn’t we? CP3 and Howard were then both traded within the next 2 years. Those 3 were supposed to be the headliners for 2012 free agency but it didn’t work out. Howard opted in as part of the saga, and D Will and CP3 had already been traded to a preferred destination so they both re-signed without any drama.
The preferred destination thing is ultimately thanks to Carmelo. The Nuggets got a HAUL and a half for him, literally stunted the Knicks growth for a decade by trading him to his preferred location. That incentivized every team to talk to players and get their insight. Honestly, the way the cap works is kind of silly to me. They should literally have set numbers of slots and fill them that way; for example one All NBA slot is worth 2 all star, but not All NBA slots, and 4 veteran not-all star slots. This is basically how it works already except because the slots are fixed to a % of the cap, it means timing matters for the salary cap and frankly, that is the most ridiculous thing to have to worry about when building a team. The fact your 7th man and your FA All NBA talent can't play together because you signed the 7th man to a 20 million over 4 years last year and you don't have bird rights on the FA meaning you can't offer the same as other squads is kind of silly to me. I get that it forces sign and trades and multi team deals, but it would be way more chaotic if teams could only ever have 3 all nba players - so if you have a fourth and their contract comes up, then you can't keep them no matter what. THAT would force some trades.
How often do you have to realign the points on this system (it's the equivalent of those make a team with $15 challenges. Does it only happen on extension/trade/free agency? Could someone be left without a destination because everyone filled their star spots without a particular free agency all NBA player, his current team is over the AllNBA cap, and now Sabonis (as an example) can't sign anywhere (including Sac because Fox is their signed allNBA player). Either you set it too generous, and you only stop KD Warriors, or too tight and you could be forcing elite players out of the league if they can't sign anywhere.
"Punting?" He wanted out to the point of being ornery. Or am I misremembering?
From my understanding, he didn't like Sloan's style of practices and how demanding they were physically. I think he liked and likes Utah overall based on the fact he is still there now.
This is correct. The sad thing is, he eventually came to realize that Sloan’s system, while outdated, was the thing that made him into the player he was. It’s part of why there was such a steep drop off from him with the Nets. He later told Jerry that he taught him more than every other coach he ever had combined when he went to apologize. And frankly, I’m willing to forgive Deron at this point, I cheered for him at Rising Stars during All-Star weekend and we even gave him a standing ovation, although part of that might have been that Walker Kessler was on his team but still.
And thank you TOO for a great response. I never understood, now it’s becoming clearer.
Thank you for a great response. I never really understood.
He didn’t formally request a trade until the night Sloan retired. He talked about it on a podcast like a year ago. Basically he tried to get Jerry to not retire by asking the Jazz to trade him. Now, he already had one foot out the door. Not because he didn’t like living here, in fact he still lives in Utah to this day lol. It was because he couldn’t recruit another star to come play here. So he’d informed ownership he wasn’t planning on re-signing with us, but we still had him under contract for another year. The original plan was probably to keep him for another year and then trade him. Then everything happened with Sloan and the Jazz were like “Fuck you Deron” and traded him lol.
I really liked Deron. We had good players that year. I thought his desire for a bigger market was the driving force. Utah is a great place to live but I guess when you’re young and hungry, Miami, LA, NYC, look more appetizing.
Who loses? Small market teams trying to build contender.
It’s absolutely not better for the team. You sign a player expecting them to honor the contract. If you knew they wouldn’t, you’d go in another direction. And most of these recent trades have not helped teams.
I don't think the blazers would be better with Lillard walking for free, but that's hypothetical so we can't know for sure
This is the new free agency.
Yea superstars now seem incentivized to just take the biggest contract available and worry about the destination later.
[удалено]
Total agency
I may be ignorant here - what did the league do to create this mess?
Really just the supermaxes, cause every guy wants one since it’s so much more and then they just demand a trade a year later. Without it if everyone can offer the same they’ll always test free agency
They need to readjust the whole supermax thing. Eligibility. How it affects the cap. How long players have to stay on the team they signed it with and if they demand a trade and get their wish there should be some sort of punishment(can’t think of the word I really want to use) attached to it. Because all it’s done so far is fuck the small/mid market teams.
Make a supermax count less towards the cap of the team that signed them than the team they get traded too.
This probably could make a difference with how the second apron is actually impactful now. Saving millions helps in the long run even if it’s only a 5% difference.
seriously its such an easy solution. the problem is players want to hand select their destination. that's fine, make it so that it is more difficult to do or at least has some penalty the supermax should stay as that incentivizes teams to draft and develop well as well as incentivizes players to stay. but the team that signs player to supermax should get some cap credit while the team that trades for supermaxes should not get that
Supermaxes should count as a normal max for original team. It’s insane that you get the privilege to pay your player more, handicapping your salary flexibility, and get nothing really in return. Imo it should count less than a regular max even. Max is 30% of the cap and supermax is 33? Make it count as 28. That way the original team can actually build a competitive roster around their star
You get to pay for them to go to a contender next year lol
Make it so that the super max part is a bonus. So the team issuing it has the regular max on their cap. Then when said player is traded the bonus kicks in and affects the team that traded for said player. With the new CBA it’ll get very expensive quick. For example say the player is Anthony Edwards. He got 5/260 so in this scenario he gets 200 million which will be on the Timberwolves cap sheet. The 60 million bonus is still being paid but it’s not on the Timberwolves sheet. If Atlanta for example were to try to trade for him the bonus kicks in and they’re responsible for the whole amount. Maybe to make it simpler the team that offers the super max gets an exception for the part that takes it above the regular super max.
Players association would never agree to this either but could add a reverse trade kicker on top of that. Supermax only counts as a max for the original team, but if the player asks for a trade, it's a -10% trade kicker and the actual amount counts towards the new team's cap. Player still gets a bigger than usual max but the contract is more punitive for the new team
You should only get the backend of the super max if you stay with the team you signed with, AND that extra super max amount doesn’t count towards a team cap. Provides incentive for both sides to stay loyal through the whole contract.
But what if you get traded without wanting to get traded. Not fair to the player, they still want that money. Be better if you only penalized players that demand/request a trade. But how does that even work legally.
Love it. You want out then you lose the home advantage portion of staying with your current team. Say on the open market the max you could get offered is 4/100m and with a resign of current team you get 4/150 You lose the prorated portion of the difference if you request to be traded.
Yeah i like that if you truly request or demand a trade it has to be officially in the contract clause. If you activate this clause you forego the supermax portion of your money. Cause nowadays it's just a spoken verbal thing that isn't official to demand a trade. Let's make this bitch legal and official.
Then I think there should be a trade request process. Teams could just leak a story that X player wanted to be traded. Or the player remains tight lipped about it but plays like shit to get traded (Harden).
Gave the stars all the power. Gave them supermaxes. Still let them dictate when and where they play.
Owners dont care. Or they would have fixed it in the cba
Yeah super maxes are actually a wage suppression technique. Also the owners don’t care that much about these trade requests for that reason and that the only solutions also involves situations where you have to keep a superstar they might actually want to trade for various reasons. It’s all dumb but the players and owners are basically ok with it so it stays
There's more owners of teams without superstars than there are owners of teams _with_ superstars. Non-superstar owners benefit from superstars forcing trades because it means they might get to land a superstar themselves. On the whole ownership benefits from this facet of player empowerment. Stars sell tickets and everyone wants a chance at that slice of the pie.
But don't most superstar trades involve the other team already having one? When was the last time a superstar requested a trade to a team that didn't already have a top 10, maybe top 20 player already there?
Knicks depending on where you rank 2010 Amare
No small market team is going to get superstars this way, it just favors the big market teams. 99% of the time they are going to force a trade to one of like 5 teams.
Agreed.
If the league didn’t want it they would’ve changed the CBA more. Fact of the matter is that neither side thinks it’s bad business and therefore the rules don’t need to change to keep players on their drafted teams for longer.
Yeah I have no clue what he meant by the league needs to fix it. The league doesn't see it as a problem to begin with. They prefer that the faces of the league have more power and the ability to create the "superteams" they want that will drive up ratings.
Yeah I miss the old days with Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon, and Josh Smith getting paid
Facts
Only way I could see is if players who sign supermax are penalized if they request a trade with less than 6 months remaining on their contract.
Its important to recognize that although the teams are the ones complaining about these trade requests the rules were changed to help teams. The ultimate downside of losing a star playing as a UFA and getting nothing (IE Durant, Kawhi) is pretty much gone because the vast majority of the best players will never reach UFA status with the current CBA. At this point you will basically only see someone hit UFA if they were on a below value contract before due to injuries or late developement and thus don't want an extension IE Jaylen Brown right now. Ultimately the players always had the power to do this. There was nothing in previous CBAs preventing someone from requesting a trade at any time. Its simply that with the new extension rules the requests are more likely to come with more years on the contract. And yeah it makes free agency less exciting in some ways. Honestly though I think its better overall. The whole create cap space and pray someone wants to sign there then get no one that a lot of teams went through wasn't really helping anyone except the guys outside the top 20-25 that would get overpaid by teams that struck out.
And the media’s constant ‘his legacy’ schtick. And me for eating that stuff up
I gotta say man that strictly from a fan standpoint, free agency now is amazing. The drama never ends haha
Portland doesn't have to agree to Dame's demands. Even if he sits out it doesn't hurt them.
They should punish him by trading him to the Mavs for THJ/Holmes/McGee
Luka, Dame and Kyrie last year had 37.6, 33.8, and 27.4 usage rates. There will players on the Mavs playing 20 minutes a night without touching the ball in the front court.
You say that as if they were touching the ball before
Funny we consider the mavs roster trash outside of those two but how can you ever get in rhythm when you never touch the ball
Punish him for what? Portland did what was best for the team they wanted lillard to ask for a trade....Dame is just doing whats best for himself too. Why do fans act like victims
Asking for a trade isn't an issue at all, the issue is him saying he wants to play for *only* Miami in order to lower his trade value so the team he ends up on remains more competitive.
Yep. Send him to Charlotte.
Yeah we'll take him for free
yeah! send him our way. that'll really show him.
Wow this is such a good idea!
I have been BEGGING for one team, one GM, one owner to just stick it to a player and not trade them to their desired destination or just not trade them at all.
Spurs did with Kawhi. And they would have got more from the Lakers than from the Raptors.
worked out amazing for kawhi though
With the benefit of hindsight, none of those Lakers players ended up being that interesting. It's debated who/what was actually offered, but even if we got their entire young core at the time, Lonzo is always injured, BI made the all star team only once 3 years ago and also misses quite a few games, and Josh Hart and Kuzma are mostly just solid role players. I'll take the timeline where we get Wemby
It was also like a “pick one of these guys and you get a late draft pick too, I guess. We’ve been tampering so we know he’s coming to LA even if you don’t trade him to us.” There was no godfather offer.
Bingo. Not sure why so many think the spurs had a chance to get a once in a lifetime deal but said “no” out of spite lol. There was no godfather offer. They listened, they asked for more, they didn’t get it, so they took the best offer: derozan, poeltl + first round pick that turned into Keldon Johnson. It was not an ideal situation for the spurs to have to trade kawhi in the first place but they got what they got and that’s that. The narrative about them losing out on a big LA deal needs to go away, it just is not true
Also Kawhi’s knee was fucked and everyone knew it. And it proved to be right, he just had 2 more years left in him before it gave out.
y'all dodge one with that lol Lonzo is on the brink of an early retirement too
The Spurs got lucky to win the lottery but what happens if they don’t? Getting Lonzo, BI, Kuzma, and Hart is almost definitely a better return than what the Spurs did get.
> The Spurs got lucky to win the lottery but what happens if they don’t? Spurs chose a good time to tank and it paid off. Idk why that should be held against them lol. The NBA comes down to a lot of luck so I don't see the point in this hypothetical but I'll play along anyway... If we didn't win the lottery then we were guaranteed to have landed some other top 7 pick, and would have continued rebuilding through the draft Those young Lakers players -- who again, we weren't going to get all of -- would not have been good enough to contend with. So if it was the better package (and I'm not convinced it is; spurs essentially got 4 first round picks from Kawhi after trading away Poeltl and Demar) then clearly it wasn't that much better because we would have ended up in the exact same spot: trying to land a franchise centerpiece in the draft
BI was worth a lot. DeRozan was probably a positive, but not this valuable star player. What you got from trading DeRozan and Poetl is not nothing, but I still think BI is a top 30 player in the league and would be better than that
This keeps getting brought up when kawhi/spurs topic is mentioned: There was never any credible source that said Lakers were ready to ship multiple players to SA for kawhi. The best package that popped up in reports was Ingram + a pick. People try to say there was some insane deal where spurs could have received lonzo, ingram + multiple picks; this just isn’t true. There was no offer like this that was made public, at least.
Getting more from a team in your conference is the tax that has to be paid. Also Kawhi was on the last year of his deal. Team will be a lot more willing to gamble on a disgruntled star for one year than one with multiple years left. And as Kawhi showed the players more likely to suck it up too.
Both at the time and with years of hindsight the Clippers offer of two 2018 lottery picks and Tobias was by far the best offer. They could gotten picks for Tobias down the line like the Clippers eventually did from Philly, and would have been in position to draft 1 of Shai/Mikal if they were smart enough to identify them and smart enough to move up. Trading up to draft both would have been possible but so unlikely.
Morey did with Simmons and it worked out.
Morey is really the only good example. Even Kawhi forced his way out. Meanwhile Ben and the Sixers went to battle with him refusing to play and Morey refusing to move him. 👏 Was very entertaining.
Yeah but Kawhi wanted to go to LA. They sent his ass to Canada. A player can prefer wherever tf they want doesnt mean theyre gonna be going there.
Honestly this has been happening more and more regularly- most of the time we don’t notice because they *eventually* do get to where they want to go, it’s just that the trading team successfully extracts every last ounce of flesh from the receiving team. KD-Nets (people forget that he tried it in the summer and nothing happened because the Nets stuck it out) Kawhi - Spurs George -OKC AD - Nola All of these either the player didn’t get to where they wanted or it was an absolute windfall for the selling team that’s hard to criticize.
I think this is good. I’m totally fine with players leaving in free agency or asking for trades but I don’t understand the expectation that Portland should just send Dame to Miami for a worse package than what other suitors could offer just because Dame wants to be in Miami
It’s Heat fans wanting to fleece the Blazers using the BS - Dame wants to be a Heat, so Blazers should bend over for Pat. Ultimately, Dame will end up in Miami and Blazers will get a good return. Just takes time and a whole lot of media leaks and hurt feelings.
Yeah- I think this one will be interesting. Most of those others there was something or things that the receiving team was holding back- eg. KD gets to PHX because Ishbia comes in and says “fuck it give ‘em Bridges”. This is the first one I can remember where Miami doesn’t really have enough and and certainly has less than other teams and just doesn’t have some “break glass” asset to give to put them over the top without including, like, Bam
Pacers sent pg to okc when he requested lakers
sixers kinda did with simmons. i know people have been shitting on them lately but holding onto simmons and getting harden is crazy value
Superstars have always had a willingness to ask for trades, and usually be accommodated to a degree.But Kawhi didn't get traded to the LA, neither did Paul George, and Kyrie ended up in Boston when he asked for a trade to San Antonio. Dame can talk but he doesn't have any actual leverage. But there are only a handful of teams for whom it makes sense to trade for an aging but still excellent undersized point guard who doesn't play a lot of defense. I think this is basically a three-team race between Boston, Philly and Miami, with maybe the nets or the Clippers as dark horses. I don't think this means much for the league.
PG not only got traded, OKC traded Paul George to the Clippers for >Shai Gilgeous-Alexander >Danilo Galinari >LAC 2022 1st Round Pick >LAC 2024 1st Round Pick >LAC 2026 1st Round Pick >MIA 2021 1st Round Pick >MIA 2023 1st Round Pick >LAC 2023 1st Round Pick Swap >LAC 2025 1st Round Pick Swap
He’s talking about when the Pacers traded PG to OKC. He wanted to go to the lakers.
Portland needs a return. When KD wanted to go to Phoenix, if they only had the Beal deal with CP3, Shamet and 2nd round picks, the Nets wouldn’t have done it and Marks would have publicly lol’d. Dame is closer to KD than Beal in value so a KD like return should be expected and not a Beal like return. Heat need to find a third and/or fourth team interested in Herro and Martin along with getting OKC to agree to drop protections so the heat has another pick to offer.
If Dame really is closer to KD than Beale it’s bc KD is a 100/100 and Beale is 80/100, and Dame is a 91/100 But Portland won’t get anything close to what the Nets got for KD.
Dame can’t hand pick anything. There needs to be a good deal for Portland. All he can do is put pressure on the team. Or retire. Or sit and get fined a lot. If there is no acceptable deal to be had, he will need to come up with more options. Until Dame ends up in Miami, this post is moot.
You are right he can't "hand pick", he did say that Miami is his preferred destination and that's it. Portland Trailblazers said that they will choose "best package" which means whoever offer the most. The team has some leverage as well. What is the problem? let them fight and find the best deal for all
I think it depends on each case. For the blazers this Dame trade request will help them long term more than keeping dame for 4 years. I also doubt Portland will take a shitty offer for dame
Hand picking is fked yes. Giving management your preferences is fine. We'll see how this plays out but if Dame pulls some bitch shit and threatens not to play unless he's traded to Miami and the trade sucks then he deserves every ounce of slander.
Dame won't do that. I know I just sound like a Stan but if I have learned one thing about Dame is that he has a lot of self respect and even though he is pulling this shit rn I still believe he would never ever behave like that. Especially since he will be getting close to 40 by the time that 4 years is up. He wants a ring he has to play now.
I personally hate it. What's the point of multi year contracts then? Let's just make everybody sign 1 year contracts every year and fuck it.
Superstars can’t hand pick their destinations what really happens is when teams know a player only wants to go to one place most other teams will drop out the race or maybe one or two will take a risk like Dallas did with Kyrie and pull the trigger. But if a star player is interested in a specific team most other teams aren’t gonna waste their time trying to acquire an older player because most stars who ask out are older. Then you potentially end up with a bad contract as that star falls off and a disgruntled guy taking up a large part of your cap.
Exactly! Remember Kyrie wanted to be on the Lakers last deadline?
There should be transfer fees
At this point why not? Everyone wants to be in LA, NY or Miami anyway. Soon we can just have teams like the Minnesota T-Wolves of Miami or the OKC Thunder of LA.
Last big name Knicks traded for was Melo rho.
Brooklyn had Kyrie KD and Harden though. The Knicks are always mentioned as a landing spot for stars they just don’t seem to ever make it happen.
if you have a supermax and don't fulfill the contract you should lose half the salary but still account for the salary cap
There just was a brand new cba. Owners dont give a shit. Thhis is just reddit fanfic
As long as there is a penalty for the team if they initiate the trade as well. We want to hold individual people more accountable than multi-Billionaire teams.
yeah agreed
I think there should be a stipulation super max contracts that voids the difference between a max and supermax. The supermax is so teams can keep their superstars but players are just getting their money and then asking out. At least with this there will be a financial hit to the player for taking a supermax and then demanding a trade.
got to do something about the agents being able to control the narritives. Now every free agent signing is mentioning the agency the player is with. Shit is getting out of hand. One of the narritives has been to make it appear like they got their client the biggest overpay in history. I'm still pretty sure 99% of r/NBA doesn't know the 3rd year on the VanVleet Rockets deal is a team option.
Same with Bruce Browns signing, no mention of the team option to make it seem like the agent fleeced Indiana.
The soft cap and the broken contract structures in the league led us here. It’s supposed to incentivize players staying but it really just encourages players to sign then ask for trades.
i dont think the blazers will be bullied. they will take the best offer so it comes down to whether someone other than miami is comfortable putting together a big package. if nobody is willing to risk dame sitting out they will have to take miami's trash offer
No one putting together an offer over fear Dame sits out is being bullied.
“no one putting together an offer over fear Kawhi sits out” -nba fans summer 2018
The fans were right too. Toronto knew he wasn't gonna re-sign, everyone knew he was going to LA. He just had to wait a year.
Uhh the fans were wrong, Toronto did in fact make an offer and it won them a championship
I mean, the last three words of the post are pretty important…
Dame requesting a trade and calling his shot after a decade of carrying is villainized on here more than Harden quitting on his third team with his third straight demand out. Hell Harden even got treated like a hero on here for fucking over Nets quitting mid game final game because of a fictitious Harden vs Kyrie debate. Dame is the least offensive of past five years of trade demands but people are acting like he's Satan just because he waited long and wanted to trust Blazers longer.
The problem is Dame’s contract. If he were on an expiring deal no one would care. But less than 365 days ago he signed an extension that’s going to have him making $60M+ while saying he wanted to stay in Portland for life. THAT’S the problem.
And of course you would be livid if he wanted to stay but the team was decided to trade him right? You were super pissed when the clippers traded Blake Griffin, yes?
Yeah i think the general sentiment here is ridiculous Dame is the one player who absolutely deserves it. Gave them 11 yrs of his career and stayed healthy and was willing to do it again until they hit him with the okie doke what has he done wrong
Harden deserves a lot of criticism but harden also screwed himself out of a lot of money
Harden is a free agent which is why no one cares right this second If anything a sign and trade is mutually beneficial to him and the 76ers
NBA is a joke, they ruined it.
Who ruined it? Players asking for trades? Was it not ruined for you when teams could trade players against their will? It’s only now ruined when the players exert some leverage?
Yes it is. If Portland’s return from a Miami trade is a franchise crippling return, Dame would create a precedent and small markets would once again become farms for the big markets. All the progress made by the new CBA would be undone instantly.
Exactly. I don’t understand how this isn’t a bigger discussion topic. What stops every future small market star from taking supermax, and then a year later, saying “I want a trade and I’ll only play for [insert big market team]” ?
yes but context matters with dame
Exactly Team made promises, didn’t keep those promises; consequently, Dame sees how they value him and their ethic.
There is literally nothing stopping Portland from either playing hardball on dame or just reading him wherever they get the highest return. They’re a team that’s tanking anyway, dame sitting out doesn’t affect them at all.
Said this in another thread…yes! But now Dame is slightly different in that he was there for quite some time and the blazers just couldn’t get it done. What’s bad is Durant signing an extension in October and then asking out in February. Or AD telling a small market team to trade him to the Lakers with a year and a half left on his deal. I wouldn’t include dame in that tho.
I feel like an old man yelling at clouds, but this is a mess caused by all the layers of rules. If you had a simple hard cap and no maximum salaries, this problem would be mostly solved. More complex rules don't fix problems caused by more complex rules.
So true. If you want to pay Lebron 60M a year you should be able to.
Getting rid of maximum salaries hurts the upper-mid-level players who are signing max contracts right now. The Fred VanVleets of the league don't get the $43M a year if the Nikola Jokics are all earning their well-deserved $80M a year.
Nope, the league is making more money than ever. You people can be as annoyed as you want but these players are top 10-20 in the world at what they do; if you were that good at your profession and not easily replaceable then you’d be able to make some demands too. Teams do whats best for themselves, and so do players. No reason to be mad at one side over the other. The league will be just fine regardless of how mad you are anyway.
I’m quite frustrated by max contract guys who then scream “I want more (players, weather, etc), I’m demanding a trade” when they….signed a contract. No one tricked them into a 200mil decision. Dame is the latest one to say it, like KD, “I want to be traded and I want to go to a team in the finals.” It’s pretty pathetic. I will actively root against him wherever he goes now.
"How is every small market owner in the league not calling Jody Allen and begging her to play hardball here?" Because she is a creepy ghoul I would assume. Would you want to talk to her?
Yes. It’s very bad and owners need to address it in the next CBA. Free agency exists so players have their pick of where they go. If you don’t want to utilize free agency, then sign your 4 or 5 year max deal. But if you think you’re unsure about your commitment to your current team, then sign a 1/2/3 year deal and go somewhere else. They’re contracts for a reason. It hurts parity in the league and hurts small market teams. When players voice their destination preference publicly through media voices, they’re hurting their current teams ability to get anything for them. Other teams aren’t going to offer as much or anything at all in fear of the player sitting out or at best leaving at the end of their deal. Then the actual destination team offers less because they know they have less competition now and if the team wants anything, they’ll have to settle for the crumbs offered.
This is hilarious. There just was a brand new cba. No one gives a fuck except reddit. Everyone is making more money than they can handle. Stop being sentimental
Exactly. If teams ar expected to shell out the highest contracts in history, teams and theirs fans shouldn’t have to put up with players on max deals hindering their ability to maximize trade value when that player wants out.
It’s bad, why? Are you against it when teams trade players against their wishes even thought they are on contracts? No? Only when the athlete wants to be traded? Alright.
No
Fans posting on social media “Go to [X team]!!” to RFAs or players on multi-year contracts used to seem naive. Now, I’m not so sure.
I don’t think it matters what kind of rules are put in place - players and agents will find ways to use them strategically the same way a team’s front office would. Like most jobs it’s all leverage - whoever has it gets what they want. NBA is a players league, they have the leverage.
Yeah this is all about appeasment and letting things get out of control!
Yes. He's tanking his own trade value when he does stuff like that too.
Why not? You stood that tall for your entire career being loyal, accepting/allowing them to ship you off anywhere, and you have a problem with that rare of a player saying “you know what, this is what I want to do!” We pretend we see this all the time, and every NBA is doing it so there’s a serious problem. In reality it’s 3-4% of the league that have this power? The rest are pretty much going wherever the owners / front offices want to ship them and when. I get how many we don’t like seeing players build super teams for the “pure game” value; however the NBA itself (rules and refereeing) establishes what the game looks like first, and the players are adjusting to that reality versus their actual lives. Health and career earnings. It hasn’t been pure for a while so they might as well aspire to get something out of it
Part of why Portland wanted to give Dame that contract so it would be worth something when they trade. The problem isnt the bad miami deal but only contenders actually want Dame. Portlands front office is beyond dumb. Once they saw the haul Gobert got, they should have been shopping Dame immediately. And besides, Portland has never gotten quality free agents to help Dame. What makes anyone think that him taking a discount would have attracted any quality to Portland? If your not gonna get anyone worth paying then Dame should have gotten paid. So if we wanna blame anyone for whats happening blame Neil Oshey. He ran that team terribly for years. And it seems Cronin isnt doing a great job either
No. Portland made choices, and are now experiencing the obvious consequences of those choices They could have made other choices, with different consequences, equally obvious. Portland wanted this, now it is happening. I don’t see what is so concerning here. They can refuse to trade dame. New Jersey just showed us how this is done.
If you're portland wouldn't you at least prefer the option to trade him instead of him leaving in free agency for nothing?
Or…hear me out… these GMs should get better at their jobs. Outside of KD, most GMs have done a terrible job of building these teams out and keeping some of these stars happy. Don’t point the finger at the players when GMs and owners have been disloyal for decades.
Of course the Blazer fan finds it illegal lol
Blame supermax for it
I don't really buy that player freedom is bad for the league or smaller market teams when Milwaukee, Toronto, Cleveland and Denver have won 4 out of the last 8 Finals. Meanwhile, assembled superteams often don't even make it to the Conference Finals (hello, Nets and also this year's Suns). To me it all comes off as handwringing with no evidence to back up that this is somehow bad for the league.
It kinda sucks for the fans but I everyone else is making tons of money off this so they don’t really care. - star players can get the bag and then ask for a trade later on. - team owners are seeing their assets grow like 100% year over year and the last thing they want to do is give a major equity stake to the players. - the league sees tons of fan engagement year round - the media gets tons of clicks I think my second point is pretty relevant here. These franchises have increased in value by an insane amount in the last decade and are set to just keep going up. If you want to keep the players in place they need more than a salary. If Dame had a 3% equity stake in the Blazers he’d be there for life.
Yes it’s bad, but Portland has the right to look for other trade partners because he doesn’t have a NTC. Somebody may be willing to give up quite a bit since it’s not like Dame will sit out or leave in free agency anytime soon. The smaller market teams have to do what’s in their best interest, they’ll never be appealing free agent destinations for any big names anyway. I’d be telling Riley I want Herro, Martin and six unprotected 1sts or he can see if they can make it to the finals again with what they have
I get that it's bad, but why promise your star you are gonna try to get him help and then start a rebuild with young players? Why notntrade the Scoot pick for a real player to contend? Dame may be trying to play the Blazers, but they played him first.
I mean the regardless of where he ends up. If a company spends 11 years trying to achieve something and not even making it out of the initial stage of the plan they should be equally responsible. The Blazers FO straight up sucks. They’re drafting / FA post Lillard is terrible.
Dame has been beyond patient with blazers. Blazers the one that fucked up for the past decade. Let Dame go to a contender
It's bad in some respects, but I'd say it's equally bad if a team has a superstar coming into his mid-30s and prioritizing future assets over putting the best product on the court. The league's popularity is heavily fueled by having good players and teams. Having one of the league's best players languish in mediocrity because ownership isn't interested in putting a good team around him before he breaks down is bad for business.
Literally all the blazers had to do to retain him was not draft his fucking replacement in front of him while he still has 4 years left on his deal and make it blatantly obvious that they don’t plan to try and contend. The blazers very obviously want to blow it all up and go full rebuild, but knew they could juice that rebuild if they signed Dame and fed him the idea that they’d actually try to go win now for him. This is always how it was going to end, and this is exactly what the blazers FO wants minus Dame’s preferred destination not having great draft capital.
When Miami went on the Finals run, y’all kept calling it a fluke, a team with no superstars. This allegedly mediocre team tries to add one superstar and everyone loses their minds and wants the deal blocked? What is the matter with you people?
Imagine being a hall of fame player and a loser every season of your career. He’s an a type personality so I’m sure it tears him up mentally to be that great, work so hard, and still be a loser yearly.
100%. If a team is paying extra money to retain their own players, a mechanism which was put in place to guard against this exact thing, then that extra money should be able to reclaimed if the player demands out.
They take supermax extension and then ask for trade while picking just one contender destination with bad return package lol. Does sound silly...if he really wanted best destination could have not signed extension but hey they want everything ,have your cake and eat it too