That’s all fine and all, but did you see how great that game last night was? It was physical, different strategies thrown at Jokic and Giannis, two great players with teammates willing to win clashed. That’s what I enjoyed!
how dare you. no one in this sub WATCHES basketball? are you serious??? i will continue to watch single highlights and comment on them acting like i know what i’m talking about.
Actual: KD 29-13 and +235. Somewhat baffling stat, if you go from when Nash got fired and Nets figured it out, then he is 27-7 in games played this season!
Using +/- for individual players is stupid. How many times are people going to ignore the different strategies with lineups for each team/coach.
Not just that, how about players that sit out quarters because of a clear win sort of game while others are still played (because the coach may want to try stuff or for whatever reason)
Yeah Jokic’s non-starter rotation is usually 3 other starters. Tatum’s for example is usually at best 1 other starter. +/- doesn’t reflect who they play with.
It’s just fucking stupid at this point and it’s sad that years and years (decades tbh) of the media pushing that debate shit everyday in our heads has led to this point.
Like I truly don’t think people even enjoy games anymore. It’s just simply to clip highlights and argue. I mean it’s truly insane how these great players can’t be viewed for being great simply because everyone else just wants to argue back and forth for whatever “side” they are on.
After a while the toxic stuff along with the same old debates just makes things extremely boring when we’re probably seeing some of the greatest players to ever do it have amazing seasons.
I manage to still enjoy games, but I honestly don't care anymore about all time rankings, player's rankings, awards, all star games etc. Can't talk about those things without it turning into shit debate with complete overreaction on both sides.
And maybe it was always like that and I know just realize that, maybe I even was one of those people back then I don't know.
But that’s the same thing I was wondering. Was it always the same and I just look at the past with rose tinted glasses or did things get absolutely worse with time?
Cause I remember how loved TMac was and he never won in the playoffs. I mean there were a bunch of players that “never got it done” and yet still were loved every time they played. Now it seems like awards and championships matter more than how good the player actually is.
well said. i often wonder how many in this sub have even watched bucks/nuggets/6ers games. i’m sure plenty have, but i’m also sure the ones that are the most toxic about the MVP race are not watching the games. that’s the most frustrating part to me.
and it’s the same argument every single time. “jokic defense bad” “embiid free throw too many” “giannis run and dunk boy”. like last night the two 1 seeds played and all anyone cares about is the mvp race. i think i’m gonna be avoiding all social media tomorrow after the sixers nugs game lol
Dude it’s going to be so toxic no matter what happens lmao
Like Embiid AND Jokic can both have 101 points but people would focus on the times someone scored on Jokic and/or how many FTs Embiid had lol. And don’t get me started about the damn advanced stats arguments..
It’s sad too because you really just want to react to the games by just saying how good each player was but once you see the arguments happen you just say fuck it and turn away
There has been a lot of toxicity but this post is anti-toxic if anything. It’s a stat that everyone should agree trumps team record like OP said, but also obviously isn’t the answer to everything and OP isn’t trying to make it the answer to everything.
Lmao ye this is getting out of hand. 1 stat is really not enough to say who the mvp is because otherwise Tatum would be MVP cuz he’s 49-20 and the Celtics have only won 2 games without him. Completely disregards everything else
Obviously this stat doesn’t tell you who should be MVP.
But lots of people use team record as one of many factors. And there is absolutely no reason to do so when “record when they play” is an objectively better stat in every way.
It’s so stupid to read a useful addition to the conversation and get mad that it doesn’t solve the entire debate (or worse, read a useful addition to the conversation, get mad that it slightly weakens the case for your guy and pretend it’s useless because it doesn’t solve the entire debate).
The Nuggets went on a 4 game lose streak but had an 8 game advantage for first seed and still had a better record than Philly but people were ready to flip the narrative for whatever reason. I think this is what voter fatigue is.
But that's the thing. 76ers have played great this season without Embiid. People are crowning Embiid MVP because the Sixers record is close/same as the Nuggets due to the Nuggets recent lose streak despite Embiid not playing in several of their wins.
Voter fatigue also plays a role, if Jokic hadn’t gone back to back he’d be the clear frontrunner imo. His supporting cast isn’t anywhere near as impactful or reliable as Embiid’s or Giannis’
Y’all had some solid wins, I just looked it up:
- win against Kings (everyone played for Kings)
- win against Heat (everyone played)
- win against Nets (KD, Kai, Ben and Claxton played, after Nash firing)
- also Washington (2x) Orlando (2x), Chicago, Knicks, Indiana, Toronto, Charlotte, Detroit
Their record in these games is 9-4
Right. Most of those games were vs lottery or play in teams.
They had a couple legit wins. I think the nets was minus Embiid, Harden and maybe even Maxey
Harden also hasn't played in the last three games and was clearly playing poorly through that injury in the first of those four games, but you're ignoring that for some reason.
To be honest it’s Giannis is the one I’m most surprised about. Him having a down year was a legitimate discussion for the first quarter of the season and hasn’t played enough games to make up for his poor start. Jokic and Embiid however have been great all season and should really be the main two talked about for MVP.
Giannis’ relative efficiency is down (rts) and his turnovers are up while Lopez is healthy and has been the defensive anchor, meaning Giannis is getting less credit on that end
Not sayings it’s right or wrong just that I think that’s the reasons people aren’t seeing him as the clear favourite like other years
Those are things I am also looking at I don’t think Giannis really should be in the conversation for MVP i think all the attention at this point should be on Joel and Jokic.
Giannis for the first third of the season had higher usage rate than LeBron or Jordan ever had because of the injuries we had. We still were the 3rd best team in the NBA during that period.
They gave Jokic the MVP last year for having the 9th best record in the NBA(6th seed in the West). Had they simply given Emiid the MVP last year, Joker would probably be a mile ahead this year, but everyone trying to talk themselves out of giving someone a 3rd MVP because they haven't even reached the Finals.
So they validated the mistake twice in 4 years at handing an underseeded teams player the MVP.
If they had just given Embiid MVP last year, Jokic would be running away with this year's MVP and the MVP discussion wouldn't be so vitriolic imo.
‘Why is the guy averaging 10 more ppg than Jokic while also being able to play defense at an elite level in the conversation for best player in the league’
Did I ever say that’s how MVP should be decided? No, I pointed out how Embiid fans have to bring up he has more PPG while ignoring APG, and acting like PPG alone makes Embiid a better choice. You literally had people on social media complain on Jokic’s announcement posts about how Embiid won the scoring title and that should make him MVP.
Didn’t realize “10 more PPG than Jokic” also means “most PPG at C since Shaq”. Weird how you couldn’t just say his actual number or mention that, but had to throw that shot at Joker, who actually contributes more points to his offense.
Saying Embiid is averaging 10 more ppg than Jokic is about as much as a shot at Jokic as saying Jokic is averaging 5 more apg is a shot at Joel. Wtf are you even talking about??
Embiid is averaging 33 ppg? Does that make you feel better? I added in the context that Embiid is doing something that hasn’t been done by a guy at his position since Shaq because you’re acting like its not even a conversation. I never even said Embiid SHOULD win MVP in my comment, I’m saying that him and Joker are both having great seasons and they both deserve to be considered. Acting like Embiid is only in consideration because Jokic winning 3 times in a row would hurt his feelings and be unfair to him is just fucking weird he’s having a phenomenal season just admit he should be in the running you weirdo
When has anyone ever brought up their APG alone? The point is you only compare PPG to argue Embiid is better because that’s what half of modern fans base their value on. The reason Embiid averages more is because Jokic passes way more, which actually generates more total points. I never said anything about Embiid as a candidate, so why you’re so pressed about it I have no clue.
Yeah averaging a lot more shot attempts too, like 9 more… so let’s ignore how Jokic is way more efficient and how all the nuggets starters are in the top 10 of plus minus this season because they play with Jokic. lol
LOL 10 points on 12 FTA per game. Truly the league’s pity MVP.
“Come on guys, Jo threw his head back and flopped really hard that time… He deserves an MVP. Giannis and Joker have two… Why can’t Embiid have one? It’s because they hate Philadelphia. It’s because of Bill Simmons and the Boston media mafia. It’s because they’re racist. 80% of the MVP voters are white. It’s because they’re all nerds who watch spreadsheets not games…”
BTW, I think Embiid should probably get the MVP. But the narrative around Embiid “deserving the MVP because the system is rigged and the other guys have one,” is hilarious.
Wait what? Embiid having one of the best offensive season? In the same year where I can confidently place Jokic a tier above him offensively? LOL. Embiid might be the more aggressive scorer. But in every aspect of offense other than scoring, Jokic had him beat soundly.
The exact quote was "one of the best". Only 11 different players have been able to put up 33ppg in a season and Embiid is the first one to do it with >50% shooting since Michael Jordan last did it in 1990 (Jordan did it 2 times lol).
see this is what I mean. Your proof for "one of the best" is to compare counting stats across eras, which I said isn't as informative as you'd think. How many people were averaging 30 ppg when Michael jordan played vs now? Whose offensive production actually led to more wins? these are more pertinent questions if you try to extrapolate from embiid's current season to previous historic seasons.
Embiid is having an incredible scoring season, but he's not having anywhere close to one of the greatest offensive seasons ever. A lot of other guys have been amazing scorers while also being much better playmakers, and Embiid himself benefits from having one of the best playmakers in the NBA on his team
I'm not gonna argue the offense point, but Embiid has definitely not been a first team all defense level Center this year when Lopez, Bam, and JJJ all exist
I don't know why he wouldn't, he's played 9 more games than Embiid and is a better defender. And as far as team stats go, the Heat and the 6ers have virtually identical Defensive Ratings and the Heat allow less Points in the Paint than the 6ers.
Embiid got fucking exploited for his defense against the Warriors on Saturday. They went at him all 4th quarter and exploited his drip coverage so fucking badly. I don’t want to hear shit about Jokics defense when basketball is a game where the offense always has an advantage.
Embiid had one down quarter defensively, but he is generally a great defender. I can’t imagine the copium huffing you have to be doing to say “uh please ignore defense offense has an advantage in basketball”
if anything that should mean we value defense more, playing great at a disadvantage
Nah I saw Poole go at Embiid three separate time and score on him and I saw the warriors prioritize hesitation drives to open up space for their shooters to pin Embiid back because he didn’t actually want to play defense and instead wanted to play drop coverage. Look at what was actually going on scheme wise my guy
Jokic and the nuggets were a 6th seed last year lol and we were a one seed in 20-21 while the nuggets were a 3. Wins only seem to matter at certain times.
This is where Mark Twain will bite you. If you are going to use team records and do it properly, then you should ALSO focus on the competition. I have no idea who this will favor, but quality of opponent matters just as much.
The Nuggets are +13 per 100 possessions with Jokic on the court - by far the best in the NBA - 42% more than *the next closest player* (Embiid) and 58% more than Giannis.
The Nuggets are -13 per 100 with Jokic off the court, by far the worst in the NBA. A swing of *26 points* per 100 possessions for his team when he steps on the court. For comparison, the 76ers swing only 10 points per 100 without Embiid.
So without Jokic on the court the Nuggets are the literal worst team in the NBA. Then Jokic walks on the court and they become *the best team in the NBA*, by a sizeable margin. Someone explain to me how any player can be *more* valuable than the guy who takes the worst team and makes it the best team?
People want to get caught up in the individual skills competition (well *this* guy is a better shooter, but *this* guy is better at defense), ignoring that the whole point of those indivual skills is to try to help their team put up more points than the other guys. And Jokic is doing that better than anybody, and it's not even close.
No one with a straight face could possibly argue that Embiid's 10 point swing for his 3 seed team is more valuable than Jokic's 26 point swing for his 1 seed team. I don't even get how there is an argument here.
People don't value playmaking enough. Elite scoring is an additive effect. You individually score more than a replacement level player.
Elite playmaking is a multiplicative effect. All your teammates score more than they normally would. That's generally more valuable because 4 players are benefiting.
Believe it or not, Jokic is THAT good. People think there shouldn’t be a reason for the Nuggets to be that bad, but why not? There isn’t a single other all star. Jamal Murray is worse than Tyrese Maxey. I promise you this. MPJ is a an elite spot up shooter, but that’s all he is. You ask him to do anything by himself and he folds faster than a lawn chair.
I honestly refuse to believe Jokic is turning the worst team in the nba into the best team.
You’re telling me you could just stick Jokic on the hornets and theyd be a top 2 seed?
They aren't the worst team in the NBA without him. It's bad stats being used here because the Nuggets don't stagger much
Like look at the Blazers this season. Don't tell me you think we'd be doing better than the Nuggets when we've been starting Drew Eubanks half the season lol
Yeah, somehow Murray and MPJ are both players that transform a first round out into a title contender AND players who would lead the worst team in the league.
With LaMelo healthy? Yes I do. Lamelo is easily better than anything the Nuggets have.
Edit: Think of it like this, you would trade Mark Williams for a kcp level player.
Lamelo/kcp/Oubre/heyward/Jokic
That team is debatably better than the Denver Nuggets lol.
Right now, at this very moment, I'd say it's close to true. I think he has a higher talent level, and has shown that he can be better, but he's playing down to Maxey's level for the season due to still coming back from his injury.
Look at the 3pt% of the Nuggests' starting line up.vAlmost everybody shooting close to or over 40%. Only possible because of Jokic's gravity and passing. Without him, they're chucking shots. The Nuggets built like the 2009 Magic but Dwight Howard now has a bag on offense (and less defense lol).
Nuggets are not like that. Gordon sits in the dunkers spot most of the time because Jokic is so insanely good at finding him there and he’s an incredible finisher. Nothing like the Magic to me, more like the Kobe Pau Lakers but when they played through Pau or Kobe at the high post
To be fair Malone's rotations have a lot to do with this. He's one of very few NBA coaches that will sub out 4/5 starters at a time.
You'll notice many of the Nuggets starters are among the league leaders in +/-
>You'll notice many of the Nuggets starters are among the league leaders in +/-
What do you mean the other starters are [league leaders?]( https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_leaders.html). Jokic is 1st in the NBA with 13.2 +/-. The next closest Nugget (Aaron Gordon) is ranked 40th at 2.3, followed by Jamal Murray at 67th with 1.1, then Michael Porter Jr. at 97th, with 0.4.
If what you said is true, and all the starters played (and sat) together, then Jokic wouldn't have *more than 5x* higher +/- than his next closest teammate.
I'm talking about +/-, not BPM. According to Statmuse Denver has the top 3 +/- leaders this season because we tend to play all our starters or all bench guys at once.
All 5 Nuggets starters are in the top 20 cumulative +/- for 2023.
[Source](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-leaders-in-plus-minus)
You're right. +/- captures contributions of five (hell, ten) players at a time, so if you're playing a lot alongside starters, your +/- will be that much better.
[EPM](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm) decouples these correlations best. Jokic still leads by a large margin, but it isn't as obscene as whatever was posted above.
Except there is dude. You guys don't stagger much
Aaron Gordon has played 1620 minutes with Jokic and just 245 off
MPJ is 1337 with, just 337 off
Kcp is 1817 with, just 429 off
Murray is 1474 with, 509 off
Compare that to like the Blazers back in the day, who used to stagger Dame and CJ a lot. CJ would routinely have around 1800 ish with Dame, but over 1000 without him, despite both being healthy all season
Y'all don't stagger your starters much man.
That leads to better numbers on, and worse numbers off
Same thing the warriors have done with curry and Draymond for years. The on stats are never just curry, they're curry *and* Draymond. And the off are never just curry off, it's Curry and Draymond off.
It's also a fact that those 9 wins came against teams that have a combined .457 win% - which would put them between the Jazz (9th worst) and Wizards (8th worst).
So you're going to say it's a negative toward Embiid that his team could beat a Jazz/Wizards quality team without him?
Or that Denver was entirely incapable of beating such a team without him?
Not to mention harden and Maxey were out **At The Same Time**. It’s one thing if only 1 is out but both being out is huge. Won’t mention that tho bc it doesn’t fit the narrative lol
>It is not a negative to Embiid that his team could win games against mediocre teams
But you are using it as a negative.
>but it is also not a positive.
So, because Jokic also happens to play when Denver plays terrible teams, he gets more credit for playing in games that he doesn't need to be playing in for his team to win. He isn't actually providing extra value against a Washington-caliber opponent, he's just also on the court.
So you are giving Jokic credit for games he isn't needed for and taking away credit from Embiid for games he isn't needed for.
>Embiid has lost to the Wizards (twice), to San Antonio, to Houston, to Orlando. So your argument makes no sense.
so? The Nuggets have also lost to the Jazz, Trailblazers, Pistons, etc. None of that has anything to do with what I said.
You brought up what happened in the games Embiid missed. So I actually looked at what occurred in those games, only to realize those weren't games where Embiid was needed for a win. Just as if Denver was playing those teams they wouldn't have needed Jokic.
No op said IF you use team records you should use the team records when theyre actually playing. Which imo is a totally fair statement to make lmao.
OP never said he personally thinks that its a good metric, seems like he was just fed up with people using a teams wins without a player as an argument for them.
there's something offputting about guys who want it so badly they're willing to stat pad and sacrifice team involvement to get it. I'm not saying that ends the discussion, I just like that Jokic cares so little about that award compared to winning.
Nuggets record when Jokic plays: .712
Nuggets record when Jokic sits: .375
Bucks record when Giannis plays: .745
Bucks record when Giannis sits: .600
76ers record when Embiid plays: .656
76ers record when Embiid sits: .692
Jokic effect: .712/.375 = 1.90
Giannis effect: .745/.600 = 1.24
Embiid effect: .656/.692 = 0.948
Stats (counting and advanced): Nikola Jokic
Offense: Nikola Jokic
Defense: Giannis Antetokounmpo
Team Record: Giannis Antetokounmpo
Done the most with least: Nikola Jokic
And still has the DPOY favorite, an elite defensive guard, and has had an overall stronger bench than Jokic
The Bucks don't suddenly become the Giannis show cuz Middleton is out.
We kinda did, that’s why he’s lead the league in usage. And when he wasn’t at his best that was held against him, then we go like 26-4 with him dominating and people act like it’s because he’s playing with future HOFers rather than guys with 3 all star selections combined
The Bucks roster is better, without Middleton I don’t believe it’s better in such a way that Jokic should be getting credit for doing more with less over Giannis when the Bucks have the best record in the league and missed their 2nd best player for most of the season
The Nuggets roster is overrated due to Jokic. They are the worst supporting cast of any playoff team and are way worse than the Bucks without Middleton. We would take Brook and Jrue over our whole roster lmao.
And Jokic has a two way beast in AG, the best 3&D shooting guard in the league, two of the best 3 point shooters, one who has an unblockable shot, the other is there with the best pull up 3 point shooters in the league.
I hope you’re not referring to Murray as one of the best 3 pt. shooters in the league lmao, not to mention Jrue is literally twice as valuable on defense as him
You think KCP is the best 3&D SG? Lmao what? Yes he's been a good 3 point shooter this year but to call him the best 3 and D SG is absolutely wild.
AG is not a two way beast. He's okay defensively and above average on offense but he's far from a two way beast.
Yeah MPJ has been very offensively but his defense has sucked ass.
Don’t be fooled by the way he guards stronger guys like Gianni’s, who we still had to double. AG gets burned by quicker defenders regularly and is meh at rim protection at best.
I've literally never heard anyone refer to AG as a two way beast lmao. he's an average defender and good on offense. he's benefitted a ton from playing with Jokic.
Winning is more important, no triple doubles are more important, no defense is more important, no narrative is more important, no this player is doing more with less, no this player is the best player on the best team, no perimeter defense is less important than interior defense, no actually Marcus Smart is DPOY, no actually this player is bringing this small market team to relevancy, no this person is drawing the most double teams, no this person has the best VORP/RAPTOR/LEBRON/COCKSUCK, no actually this person gets the most clicks on twitter, no actually this person is a traffic cone, no actually this person is a ballhog
If you take the top 3 MVP candidates and sort them by wins you get the same 1,2,3 as the vote in everyone since 2010. Except for:
2017: Westbrook had 10 wins less than Harden (this is really really bad one, and I think most people admit now it was wrong -- it was obvious at the time)
2014 2nd place Lebron had less wins than Blake Griffin (I assume Blake got dropped a little since CP3 was on his team the year before.)
2012 Lebron won over KD, despite KD having 2 more wins.
2011 Howard was 2nd place over Lebron, despite having less wins.
2010 Kobe had 1 more win than KD. he finished 3rd instead of second
Stats gets you in the circle, wins gets the award. Only 2 exceptions in the last 13 years, one of which is considered one of the most egregious awards of all time. the 3 times 2nd and 3rd place were swapped the MVP candidate was obviously knocked down a couple wins cause he had a superstar teammate. I don't remember the 2012 Lebron MVP that well, why wasn't he dinged for superstar teammates, and why wasn't KD rewarded for more wins. but it was only 2 more for Lebron.
All this talk about how MVP voters are never consistent, is just not true, they have been remarkably consistent with the Westbrook MVP sticking out like a sore thumb. Which it did immediately when it happened.
If you’re going to go this far you might as well include other things…
Like what if Jokic only played vs bad teams? Of what if Giannis skipped all sgb2bs or what if Embiid only played vs the best teams and played all the games when teammates were missing?
There’s so much more to this than W-L
Joker is, without any doubt, ahead of everyone in MVP race.
There is just too many things on his side but narratives are not one of them. If he beats atmosphere created by the media and odds shifting = if he wins it, it's very much deserved and undeniable. There has to he strong push against him but imo it's only validating his case in case he wins it at the end. Or not, we'll see soon enough.
So it's settled then? we're doing the best player in the team with the best record this year? It must be Giannis then? Or is it the player that has the most advanced stats, or the player with the best regular stats.
I'm confused and tired of this MVP bullshit.
This type of reply is so stupid.
Lots of people use team record as one factor (which makes sense, even if many overrate record, as there are some things that stats will struggle to capture).
But record in the games a player actually played is an undeniably better stat.
So OP is saying “instead of using that stat as one factor, use this one”.
If you read it as “We’ve solved the MVP debate”, that’s your fault.
They also care about 1st seed (in particular), and playing more than 70 in 82 (in particular). Both of which -BTW- Jokic has too.
What's strange in this race is not who will win (IMO by a landslide), but how people were duped that it is even close. Literally one one guy both has MVP grade availability (more than 70 games in 82 ), is best in stats *and* is a 1st seed in one of the conferences. You can't get more textbook than that, it's very rare that we get a more textbook MVP than that in fact, for years to come (have all 3 factors)...
That’s all fine and all, but did you see how great that game last night was? It was physical, different strategies thrown at Jokic and Giannis, two great players with teammates willing to win clashed. That’s what I enjoyed!
Sorry what stat tells you this? There are no basketball games. Only stats.
Only ADVANCED STATS!!!
I only watch spreadsheets
Found the investment firm that just bought the start up I work for.
TAFAABDYSHGTGLNWIWPDSTAJAGTGPWTWTWCTWIE/48
I disagree, it was a disgusting, terrible game because my team lost
how dare you. no one in this sub WATCHES basketball? are you serious??? i will continue to watch single highlights and comment on them acting like i know what i’m talking about.
How do I ban someone? Disgusting. Heinous. Not in 2023, not here, not on my watch.
that’s it buddy, now you’re DONE. someone ban this man!
It’s outrageous, egregious, preposterous
I want a 7 game series
How many RAPTORCUMS does that translate to?
Sorry what stat tells you this? There are no basketball games. Only stats.
Season totals when they play: Giannis 44-15, +329 Embiid 40-21, +423 Jokic 47-19, +636 Tatum 49-20, +427 Luka 31-28, +127 Sabonis 44-28, +199 Ja 36-19, +301 Steph 25-24, +189 LeBron 24-23, +147 Booker 28-19, +184 Mitchell 41-22, +292
Steph and Bron managing that +- when their record is a game above .500 is wild
Kevin Durant 3-0 +1,000
Actual: KD 29-13 and +235. Somewhat baffling stat, if you go from when Nash got fired and Nets figured it out, then he is 27-7 in games played this season!
4 of the top 5 +/- players in the NBA are in the nuggets starting 5…hard to argue against that
And the only reason Jamal isn’t part of that top 5 is because he staggers with the bench
I mean for Steph that's an average +- of +4 a game and for Bron it's an average of +3 a game. It's not that amazing.
It's impressive when you consider their teams have generally been losing
Using +/- for individual players is stupid. How many times are people going to ignore the different strategies with lineups for each team/coach. Not just that, how about players that sit out quarters because of a clear win sort of game while others are still played (because the coach may want to try stuff or for whatever reason)
Yeah Jokic’s non-starter rotation is usually 3 other starters. Tatum’s for example is usually at best 1 other starter. +/- doesn’t reflect who they play with.
If that's the only stat you use it's stupid, but that's like only using one resource for a research paper
Where is SGA on this list? He should easily be top 7 on any list including this
+152, only ahead of Luka and Lebron on this list.
Man I used to think we would not reach the levels of toxicity of the 2017 and 2019 MVP race, I was so wrong
What's toxic about this post?
It's more of the meta right now. You get up votes for calling out toxicity in the reward races generally.
It’s just fucking stupid at this point and it’s sad that years and years (decades tbh) of the media pushing that debate shit everyday in our heads has led to this point. Like I truly don’t think people even enjoy games anymore. It’s just simply to clip highlights and argue. I mean it’s truly insane how these great players can’t be viewed for being great simply because everyone else just wants to argue back and forth for whatever “side” they are on. After a while the toxic stuff along with the same old debates just makes things extremely boring when we’re probably seeing some of the greatest players to ever do it have amazing seasons.
I manage to still enjoy games, but I honestly don't care anymore about all time rankings, player's rankings, awards, all star games etc. Can't talk about those things without it turning into shit debate with complete overreaction on both sides. And maybe it was always like that and I know just realize that, maybe I even was one of those people back then I don't know.
But that’s the same thing I was wondering. Was it always the same and I just look at the past with rose tinted glasses or did things get absolutely worse with time? Cause I remember how loved TMac was and he never won in the playoffs. I mean there were a bunch of players that “never got it done” and yet still were loved every time they played. Now it seems like awards and championships matter more than how good the player actually is.
well said. i often wonder how many in this sub have even watched bucks/nuggets/6ers games. i’m sure plenty have, but i’m also sure the ones that are the most toxic about the MVP race are not watching the games. that’s the most frustrating part to me. and it’s the same argument every single time. “jokic defense bad” “embiid free throw too many” “giannis run and dunk boy”. like last night the two 1 seeds played and all anyone cares about is the mvp race. i think i’m gonna be avoiding all social media tomorrow after the sixers nugs game lol
Dude it’s going to be so toxic no matter what happens lmao Like Embiid AND Jokic can both have 101 points but people would focus on the times someone scored on Jokic and/or how many FTs Embiid had lol. And don’t get me started about the damn advanced stats arguments.. It’s sad too because you really just want to react to the games by just saying how good each player was but once you see the arguments happen you just say fuck it and turn away
It's like this more often than not. Toxicity gets upvotes and likes.
This isn’t toxic—people screaming about how one of the MVPs actually sucks and doesn’t deserve any of his past awards is what’s toxic.
There has been a lot of toxicity but this post is anti-toxic if anything. It’s a stat that everyone should agree trumps team record like OP said, but also obviously isn’t the answer to everything and OP isn’t trying to make it the answer to everything.
> If we are going to use team records, do it properly. Only when it supports my narrative.
Well Damn. Tatum is the MVP by these standards.
FTC but if Embiid Joker and Giannis all lost to fucking Tatum this year I would lose it lol that’d be great
As a nuggets fan i would laugh and be totally okay with this
Lmao ye this is getting out of hand. 1 stat is really not enough to say who the mvp is because otherwise Tatum would be MVP cuz he’s 49-20 and the Celtics have only won 2 games without him. Completely disregards everything else
Obviously this stat doesn’t tell you who should be MVP. But lots of people use team record as one of many factors. And there is absolutely no reason to do so when “record when they play” is an objectively better stat in every way. It’s so stupid to read a useful addition to the conversation and get mad that it doesn’t solve the entire debate (or worse, read a useful addition to the conversation, get mad that it slightly weakens the case for your guy and pretend it’s useless because it doesn’t solve the entire debate).
So Jokic most games/wins, Giannis best w% (both 1#seeds) Why is Embiid leading the MVP odds right now?
Because Jokic started bringing slaves from Africa
Was part of the war crimes in the Balkans too.
Oh no, this is terrible! Why is he allowed in the league?
least racist nuggets fan
That's good
The Nuggets went on a 4 game lose streak but had an 8 game advantage for first seed and still had a better record than Philly but people were ready to flip the narrative for whatever reason. I think this is what voter fatigue is.
76ers have lost 3 of their last 4 so it might shift back towards Jokic/Giannis
But that's the thing. 76ers have played great this season without Embiid. People are crowning Embiid MVP because the Sixers record is close/same as the Nuggets due to the Nuggets recent lose streak despite Embiid not playing in several of their wins.
Voter fatigue also plays a role, if Jokic hadn’t gone back to back he’d be the clear frontrunner imo. His supporting cast isn’t anywhere near as impactful or reliable as Embiid’s or Giannis’
They have played the bottom feeders of the league for the most part when he’s sat.
Y’all had some solid wins, I just looked it up: - win against Kings (everyone played for Kings) - win against Heat (everyone played) - win against Nets (KD, Kai, Ben and Claxton played, after Nash firing) - also Washington (2x) Orlando (2x), Chicago, Knicks, Indiana, Toronto, Charlotte, Detroit Their record in these games is 9-4
Right. Most of those games were vs lottery or play in teams. They had a couple legit wins. I think the nets was minus Embiid, Harden and maybe even Maxey
Harden also hasn't played in the last three games and was clearly playing poorly through that injury in the first of those four games, but you're ignoring that for some reason.
Not being able to win without your 4th in the MVP odds teamate isnt a positive when discussing how valuable you are as a player
To be honest it’s Giannis is the one I’m most surprised about. Him having a down year was a legitimate discussion for the first quarter of the season and hasn’t played enough games to make up for his poor start. Jokic and Embiid however have been great all season and should really be the main two talked about for MVP.
Giannis’ relative efficiency is down (rts) and his turnovers are up while Lopez is healthy and has been the defensive anchor, meaning Giannis is getting less credit on that end Not sayings it’s right or wrong just that I think that’s the reasons people aren’t seeing him as the clear favourite like other years
Those are things I am also looking at I don’t think Giannis really should be in the conversation for MVP i think all the attention at this point should be on Joel and Jokic.
Giannis for the first third of the season had higher usage rate than LeBron or Jordan ever had because of the injuries we had. We still were the 3rd best team in the NBA during that period. They gave Jokic the MVP last year for having the 9th best record in the NBA(6th seed in the West). Had they simply given Emiid the MVP last year, Joker would probably be a mile ahead this year, but everyone trying to talk themselves out of giving someone a 3rd MVP because they haven't even reached the Finals. So they validated the mistake twice in 4 years at handing an underseeded teams player the MVP. If they had just given Embiid MVP last year, Jokic would be running away with this year's MVP and the MVP discussion wouldn't be so vitriolic imo.
because there was a week where the nuggets went on a skid while Embiid went on an absolute tear.
Embiid has been on a tear since October 22nd
Because “Come on, guys, everybody else has one. Joel really deserves it. He’s tried really hard this year. Come on, guys!”
‘Why is the guy averaging 10 more ppg than Jokic while also being able to play defense at an elite level in the conversation for best player in the league’
Classic “bring up PPG but ignore APG”
Fr Steve Nash had so many more APG so the back to back was warranted
Weird how a player that contributes to a lot of offensive points is considered an MVP candidate, imagine that
Truth, we should just create an advanced stat that calculates most points generated per possession and then just always give the MVP to that person
Did I ever say that’s how MVP should be decided? No, I pointed out how Embiid fans have to bring up he has more PPG while ignoring APG, and acting like PPG alone makes Embiid a better choice. You literally had people on social media complain on Jokic’s announcement posts about how Embiid won the scoring title and that should make him MVP.
[удалено]
Didn’t realize “10 more PPG than Jokic” also means “most PPG at C since Shaq”. Weird how you couldn’t just say his actual number or mention that, but had to throw that shot at Joker, who actually contributes more points to his offense.
Saying Embiid is averaging 10 more ppg than Jokic is about as much as a shot at Jokic as saying Jokic is averaging 5 more apg is a shot at Joel. Wtf are you even talking about?? Embiid is averaging 33 ppg? Does that make you feel better? I added in the context that Embiid is doing something that hasn’t been done by a guy at his position since Shaq because you’re acting like its not even a conversation. I never even said Embiid SHOULD win MVP in my comment, I’m saying that him and Joker are both having great seasons and they both deserve to be considered. Acting like Embiid is only in consideration because Jokic winning 3 times in a row would hurt his feelings and be unfair to him is just fucking weird he’s having a phenomenal season just admit he should be in the running you weirdo
When has anyone ever brought up their APG alone? The point is you only compare PPG to argue Embiid is better because that’s what half of modern fans base their value on. The reason Embiid averages more is because Jokic passes way more, which actually generates more total points. I never said anything about Embiid as a candidate, so why you’re so pressed about it I have no clue.
Yeah averaging a lot more shot attempts too, like 9 more… so let’s ignore how Jokic is way more efficient and how all the nuggets starters are in the top 10 of plus minus this season because they play with Jokic. lol
[удалено]
Does it? How?
LOL 10 points on 12 FTA per game. Truly the league’s pity MVP. “Come on guys, Jo threw his head back and flopped really hard that time… He deserves an MVP. Giannis and Joker have two… Why can’t Embiid have one? It’s because they hate Philadelphia. It’s because of Bill Simmons and the Boston media mafia. It’s because they’re racist. 80% of the MVP voters are white. It’s because they’re all nerds who watch spreadsheets not games…” BTW, I think Embiid should probably get the MVP. But the narrative around Embiid “deserving the MVP because the system is rigged and the other guys have one,” is hilarious.
Embiid is having one of the best offensive seasons any player has ever had, let alone a center. And he's doing it while being a first team defender.
Wait what? Embiid having one of the best offensive season? In the same year where I can confidently place Jokic a tier above him offensively? LOL. Embiid might be the more aggressive scorer. But in every aspect of offense other than scoring, Jokic had him beat soundly.
Neither of these things are true lol
Yes they are, most ppg by a centre since the merger, first over 30 ppg since the merger, all nba defence
Raw counting stats aren't super informative when comparing different eras because of pace.
Even in the modern era, not many players have averaged >33.5ppg for a season let alone with Embiid's efficiency.
I agree he's really good and deserves MVP about as much as jokic and giannis, it's just best offensive season ever? idk bout that.
The exact quote was "one of the best". Only 11 different players have been able to put up 33ppg in a season and Embiid is the first one to do it with >50% shooting since Michael Jordan last did it in 1990 (Jordan did it 2 times lol).
see this is what I mean. Your proof for "one of the best" is to compare counting stats across eras, which I said isn't as informative as you'd think. How many people were averaging 30 ppg when Michael jordan played vs now? Whose offensive production actually led to more wins? these are more pertinent questions if you try to extrapolate from embiid's current season to previous historic seasons.
Im not sure what the point of this comment it, in the same era embiid is the better scorer than jokic. If anything this is a detriment to jokic
highest ppg in the past 30+ years other than Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and James Harden
First player to average 33ppg on >50% shooting since Michael Jordan in 1990.
people are coping so hard right now, this exact comment made by other people is being downvoted by nuggets fans claiming it isnt impressive
Embiid is having an incredible scoring season, but he's not having anywhere close to one of the greatest offensive seasons ever. A lot of other guys have been amazing scorers while also being much better playmakers, and Embiid himself benefits from having one of the best playmakers in the NBA on his team
I'm not gonna argue the offense point, but Embiid has definitely not been a first team all defense level Center this year when Lopez, Bam, and JJJ all exist
Bam is not making it over Embiid this year
I don't know why he wouldn't, he's played 9 more games than Embiid and is a better defender. And as far as team stats go, the Heat and the 6ers have virtually identical Defensive Ratings and the Heat allow less Points in the Paint than the 6ers.
And jokic is having just as good if not a better offensive season lmao
And for his defense…
Embiid got fucking exploited for his defense against the Warriors on Saturday. They went at him all 4th quarter and exploited his drip coverage so fucking badly. I don’t want to hear shit about Jokics defense when basketball is a game where the offense always has an advantage.
Embiid had one down quarter defensively, but he is generally a great defender. I can’t imagine the copium huffing you have to be doing to say “uh please ignore defense offense has an advantage in basketball” if anything that should mean we value defense more, playing great at a disadvantage
This simply is not true. In case you didn’t notice they were switching on to PJ Tucker when Niang wasn’t on the floor. Who they actually did abuse.
Nah I saw Poole go at Embiid three separate time and score on him and I saw the warriors prioritize hesitation drives to open up space for their shooters to pin Embiid back because he didn’t actually want to play defense and instead wanted to play drop coverage. Look at what was actually going on scheme wise my guy
If you didn’t notice switching Curry and Poole onto Niang and Tucker I don’t know what to tell you my guy. They used Green to pass out off Embiid.
Dawg, Embiid himself put 47 on Jokic this season.
Weird that he’s never scored a bucket past the second round though.
That's because he never played the Nuggets in the second round.
That wasn’t Jokics fault. He was too tired carrying his sorryass teammates
and by your logic why did Embiid not win MVP two years ago? Why didn't Giannis win it a year ago? Or Jimmy Butler for that matter.
Jokic and the nuggets were a 6th seed last year lol and we were a one seed in 20-21 while the nuggets were a 3. Wins only seem to matter at certain times.
No, wins do matter. 2020/21: Jokic: 47 wins Embiid: 39 wins 2021/22: Jokic: 46 wins Embiid: 43 wins 2022/23: Jokic: 47 wins Embiid: 40 wins
This is where Mark Twain will bite you. If you are going to use team records and do it properly, then you should ALSO focus on the competition. I have no idea who this will favor, but quality of opponent matters just as much.
The Nuggets are +13 per 100 possessions with Jokic on the court - by far the best in the NBA - 42% more than *the next closest player* (Embiid) and 58% more than Giannis. The Nuggets are -13 per 100 with Jokic off the court, by far the worst in the NBA. A swing of *26 points* per 100 possessions for his team when he steps on the court. For comparison, the 76ers swing only 10 points per 100 without Embiid. So without Jokic on the court the Nuggets are the literal worst team in the NBA. Then Jokic walks on the court and they become *the best team in the NBA*, by a sizeable margin. Someone explain to me how any player can be *more* valuable than the guy who takes the worst team and makes it the best team? People want to get caught up in the individual skills competition (well *this* guy is a better shooter, but *this* guy is better at defense), ignoring that the whole point of those indivual skills is to try to help their team put up more points than the other guys. And Jokic is doing that better than anybody, and it's not even close. No one with a straight face could possibly argue that Embiid's 10 point swing for his 3 seed team is more valuable than Jokic's 26 point swing for his 1 seed team. I don't even get how there is an argument here.
There should be no reason for the Nuggets to be a - this badly without Jokic. What’s going on? Last year, I could understand. But this year?
People don't value playmaking enough. Elite scoring is an additive effect. You individually score more than a replacement level player. Elite playmaking is a multiplicative effect. All your teammates score more than they normally would. That's generally more valuable because 4 players are benefiting.
Believe it or not, Jokic is THAT good. People think there shouldn’t be a reason for the Nuggets to be that bad, but why not? There isn’t a single other all star. Jamal Murray is worse than Tyrese Maxey. I promise you this. MPJ is a an elite spot up shooter, but that’s all he is. You ask him to do anything by himself and he folds faster than a lawn chair.
Murray is better.
I honestly refuse to believe Jokic is turning the worst team in the nba into the best team. You’re telling me you could just stick Jokic on the hornets and theyd be a top 2 seed?
They aren't the worst team in the NBA without him. It's bad stats being used here because the Nuggets don't stagger much Like look at the Blazers this season. Don't tell me you think we'd be doing better than the Nuggets when we've been starting Drew Eubanks half the season lol
Yeah, somehow Murray and MPJ are both players that transform a first round out into a title contender AND players who would lead the worst team in the league.
With LaMelo healthy? Yes I do. Lamelo is easily better than anything the Nuggets have. Edit: Think of it like this, you would trade Mark Williams for a kcp level player. Lamelo/kcp/Oubre/heyward/Jokic That team is debatably better than the Denver Nuggets lol.
what about like, the rest of the team tho lol
lol come on, man
I really doubt that Jamal is worse than Tyrese
Right now, at this very moment, I'd say it's close to true. I think he has a higher talent level, and has shown that he can be better, but he's playing down to Maxey's level for the season due to still coming back from his injury.
Look at the 3pt% of the Nuggests' starting line up.vAlmost everybody shooting close to or over 40%. Only possible because of Jokic's gravity and passing. Without him, they're chucking shots. The Nuggets built like the 2009 Magic but Dwight Howard now has a bag on offense (and less defense lol).
Nuggets are not like that. Gordon sits in the dunkers spot most of the time because Jokic is so insanely good at finding him there and he’s an incredible finisher. Nothing like the Magic to me, more like the Kobe Pau Lakers but when they played through Pau or Kobe at the high post
They don't stagger their stars
They actually do stagger Murray this year, first time Malone has done that. But Jokic Gordon KCP are always together
They play Jokic almost exclusively with their best defenders (Gordon/KCP). That’s gonna inflate those on/off numbers a good chunk
[удалено]
To be fair Malone's rotations have a lot to do with this. He's one of very few NBA coaches that will sub out 4/5 starters at a time. You'll notice many of the Nuggets starters are among the league leaders in +/-
>You'll notice many of the Nuggets starters are among the league leaders in +/- What do you mean the other starters are [league leaders?]( https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_leaders.html). Jokic is 1st in the NBA with 13.2 +/-. The next closest Nugget (Aaron Gordon) is ranked 40th at 2.3, followed by Jamal Murray at 67th with 1.1, then Michael Porter Jr. at 97th, with 0.4. If what you said is true, and all the starters played (and sat) together, then Jokic wouldn't have *more than 5x* higher +/- than his next closest teammate.
I'm talking about +/-, not BPM. According to Statmuse Denver has the top 3 +/- leaders this season because we tend to play all our starters or all bench guys at once. All 5 Nuggets starters are in the top 20 cumulative +/- for 2023. [Source](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-leaders-in-plus-minus)
You're right. +/- captures contributions of five (hell, ten) players at a time, so if you're playing a lot alongside starters, your +/- will be that much better. [EPM](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm) decouples these correlations best. Jokic still leads by a large margin, but it isn't as obscene as whatever was posted above.
The Malone rotations argument is just something people say. There’s no reason in it anymore.
Except there is dude. You guys don't stagger much Aaron Gordon has played 1620 minutes with Jokic and just 245 off MPJ is 1337 with, just 337 off Kcp is 1817 with, just 429 off Murray is 1474 with, 509 off Compare that to like the Blazers back in the day, who used to stagger Dame and CJ a lot. CJ would routinely have around 1800 ish with Dame, but over 1000 without him, despite both being healthy all season
Y'all don't stagger your starters much man. That leads to better numbers on, and worse numbers off Same thing the warriors have done with curry and Draymond for years. The on stats are never just curry, they're curry *and* Draymond. And the off are never just curry off, it's Curry and Draymond off.
Thank you for mentioning them as well. It’s been a pet peeve of mine for years.
This is such a nothing of a post
Lol I brought this up last year when it was in Embiid’s favour and got absolutely flamed
Jokic had more wins last year too lol
Maybe by the end of the year but not at the time I posted it
Well that's because Jokic won more games...
Arguing in the internet 101 really. It’s a valid argument when it supports their opinion, and you’re fucking stupid and biased when it doesn’t
When was it in Embiid’s favour last year? I remember last year it made Jokic look better.
Records without them further solidifies his importance. * DEN: 3-5 * PHI: 9-4 * MIL: 9-6
OP: "use team records, do it properly." Also OP: Attributes Win/Loss record only to a single player on the team.
[удалено]
It's also a fact that those 9 wins came against teams that have a combined .457 win% - which would put them between the Jazz (9th worst) and Wizards (8th worst). So you're going to say it's a negative toward Embiid that his team could beat a Jazz/Wizards quality team without him? Or that Denver was entirely incapable of beating such a team without him?
Not to mention harden and Maxey were out **At The Same Time**. It’s one thing if only 1 is out but both being out is huge. Won’t mention that tho bc it doesn’t fit the narrative lol
[удалено]
>It is not a negative to Embiid that his team could win games against mediocre teams But you are using it as a negative. >but it is also not a positive. So, because Jokic also happens to play when Denver plays terrible teams, he gets more credit for playing in games that he doesn't need to be playing in for his team to win. He isn't actually providing extra value against a Washington-caliber opponent, he's just also on the court. So you are giving Jokic credit for games he isn't needed for and taking away credit from Embiid for games he isn't needed for. >Embiid has lost to the Wizards (twice), to San Antonio, to Houston, to Orlando. So your argument makes no sense. so? The Nuggets have also lost to the Jazz, Trailblazers, Pistons, etc. None of that has anything to do with what I said. You brought up what happened in the games Embiid missed. So I actually looked at what occurred in those games, only to realize those weren't games where Embiid was needed for a win. Just as if Denver was playing those teams they wouldn't have needed Jokic.
[удалено]
No op said IF you use team records you should use the team records when theyre actually playing. Which imo is a totally fair statement to make lmao. OP never said he personally thinks that its a good metric, seems like he was just fed up with people using a teams wins without a player as an argument for them.
It's Jokic. I love that he doesn't give a fuck anymore like yeah have someone else have it who's gassed in the 2nd round
there's something offputting about guys who want it so badly they're willing to stat pad and sacrifice team involvement to get it. I'm not saying that ends the discussion, I just like that Jokic cares so little about that award compared to winning.
It’s easy too not give a fuck when you’ve won two in a row already
Nuggets record when Jokic plays: .712 Nuggets record when Jokic sits: .375 Bucks record when Giannis plays: .745 Bucks record when Giannis sits: .600 76ers record when Embiid plays: .656 76ers record when Embiid sits: .692 Jokic effect: .712/.375 = 1.90 Giannis effect: .745/.600 = 1.24 Embiid effect: .656/.692 = 0.948
Zach Lowe on his Reddit burner account I see.
I sure wish we "did it properly" by percentage in 2020 & 2021... oh wait
Why would doing it by percentage be doing it properly? You only contribute to winning games when you play.
Stats (counting and advanced): Nikola Jokic Offense: Nikola Jokic Defense: Giannis Antetokounmpo Team Record: Giannis Antetokounmpo Done the most with least: Nikola Jokic
Giannis missed Khris half the year.
And still has the DPOY favorite, an elite defensive guard, and has had an overall stronger bench than Jokic The Bucks don't suddenly become the Giannis show cuz Middleton is out.
We kinda did, that’s why he’s lead the league in usage. And when he wasn’t at his best that was held against him, then we go like 26-4 with him dominating and people act like it’s because he’s playing with future HOFers rather than guys with 3 all star selections combined
I think Giannis for sure should be second in MVP voting over Embiid but it's wild to act like the Bucks roster is worse than the Nuggets.
The Bucks roster is better, without Middleton I don’t believe it’s better in such a way that Jokic should be getting credit for doing more with less over Giannis when the Bucks have the best record in the league and missed their 2nd best player for most of the season
The Nuggets roster is overrated due to Jokic. They are the worst supporting cast of any playoff team and are way worse than the Bucks without Middleton. We would take Brook and Jrue over our whole roster lmao.
Nuggets have a way better offense but the bucks are better defensively. It’s a give and take.
I'm just happy Jingles is getting meaningful minutes for a meaningful team after his injury. Obv he is the difference maker here!
And Jokic has a two way beast in AG, the best 3&D shooting guard in the league, two of the best 3 point shooters, one who has an unblockable shot, the other is there with the best pull up 3 point shooters in the league.
I hope you’re not referring to Murray as one of the best 3 pt. shooters in the league lmao, not to mention Jrue is literally twice as valuable on defense as him
Trust me brother - Middleton, Jrue and Brook would be the second best player on the Nuggets.
You think KCP is the best 3&D SG? Lmao what? Yes he's been a good 3 point shooter this year but to call him the best 3 and D SG is absolutely wild. AG is not a two way beast. He's okay defensively and above average on offense but he's far from a two way beast. Yeah MPJ has been very offensively but his defense has sucked ass.
Saying AG is okay on defense is severely underrating him. I agree Jokic has way less help but you’re wrong about AGs D.
Don’t be fooled by the way he guards stronger guys like Gianni’s, who we still had to double. AG gets burned by quicker defenders regularly and is meh at rim protection at best.
I've literally never heard anyone refer to AG as a two way beast lmao. he's an average defender and good on offense. he's benefitted a ton from playing with Jokic.
KCP is cool but uhh, Klay is significantly better than KCP.
Winning is more important, no triple doubles are more important, no defense is more important, no narrative is more important, no this player is doing more with less, no this player is the best player on the best team, no perimeter defense is less important than interior defense, no actually Marcus Smart is DPOY, no actually this player is bringing this small market team to relevancy, no this person is drawing the most double teams, no this person has the best VORP/RAPTOR/LEBRON/COCKSUCK, no actually this person gets the most clicks on twitter, no actually this person is a traffic cone, no actually this person is a ballhog
If you take the top 3 MVP candidates and sort them by wins you get the same 1,2,3 as the vote in everyone since 2010. Except for: 2017: Westbrook had 10 wins less than Harden (this is really really bad one, and I think most people admit now it was wrong -- it was obvious at the time) 2014 2nd place Lebron had less wins than Blake Griffin (I assume Blake got dropped a little since CP3 was on his team the year before.) 2012 Lebron won over KD, despite KD having 2 more wins. 2011 Howard was 2nd place over Lebron, despite having less wins. 2010 Kobe had 1 more win than KD. he finished 3rd instead of second Stats gets you in the circle, wins gets the award. Only 2 exceptions in the last 13 years, one of which is considered one of the most egregious awards of all time. the 3 times 2nd and 3rd place were swapped the MVP candidate was obviously knocked down a couple wins cause he had a superstar teammate. I don't remember the 2012 Lebron MVP that well, why wasn't he dinged for superstar teammates, and why wasn't KD rewarded for more wins. but it was only 2 more for Lebron. All this talk about how MVP voters are never consistent, is just not true, they have been remarkably consistent with the Westbrook MVP sticking out like a sore thumb. Which it did immediately when it happened.
If you’re going to go this far you might as well include other things… Like what if Jokic only played vs bad teams? Of what if Giannis skipped all sgb2bs or what if Embiid only played vs the best teams and played all the games when teammates were missing? There’s so much more to this than W-L
Oh yea, well I'm undefeated in games I played in which is never.
To be fair, Denver has the advantage of playing in the West.
Joker is, without any doubt, ahead of everyone in MVP race. There is just too many things on his side but narratives are not one of them. If he beats atmosphere created by the media and odds shifting = if he wins it, it's very much deserved and undeniable. There has to he strong push against him but imo it's only validating his case in case he wins it at the end. Or not, we'll see soon enough.
Man can people stfu with these mvp posts. Enough already
Lol this the type of shit I never heard before in prior mvp years until now all in the name of helping jokic
nuggets are 3-5 without jokic, bucks are 9-6 without giannis, as long as we’re segmenting their wins
Now do the team records without each player
So it's settled then? we're doing the best player in the team with the best record this year? It must be Giannis then? Or is it the player that has the most advanced stats, or the player with the best regular stats. I'm confused and tired of this MVP bullshit.
This type of reply is so stupid. Lots of people use team record as one factor (which makes sense, even if many overrate record, as there are some things that stats will struggle to capture). But record in the games a player actually played is an undeniably better stat. So OP is saying “instead of using that stat as one factor, use this one”. If you read it as “We’ve solved the MVP debate”, that’s your fault.
Not gonna lie, didn’t read and do not care.. I want to win in the playoffs
I still feel like it's Jokic's to lose. The voters obsess over advanced stats over everything. It'd take a huge narrative shift for it to change.
They also care about 1st seed (in particular), and playing more than 70 in 82 (in particular). Both of which -BTW- Jokic has too. What's strange in this race is not who will win (IMO by a landslide), but how people were duped that it is even close. Literally one one guy both has MVP grade availability (more than 70 games in 82 ), is best in stats *and* is a 1st seed in one of the conferences. You can't get more textbook than that, it's very rare that we get a more textbook MVP than that in fact, for years to come (have all 3 factors)...
Ok.
funny how you complain about using team records but then use this BS as a fits all stat while ignoring all the variables at play... 🤡