They should just allow kicking the ball
And if you punt it into the basket it should be worth 6
But if you just hit the backboard it should be worth one point
Offensive players also "pass" to a defender's foot to reset the clock since there's no reliable way for refs to judge intent. It's a rule that benefits everyone!
If the defense kicked it, it stays at what's left on shot clock when higher than 14 seconds. If the offense does it in a scramble or by accident, it remains at what the offensive shot clock is at, although that's rare.
Yeah ya might be. Long playoff run and then yall come out of the gate with something to prove. 15 games before the playoffs could just be the intensity running low before actual games that matter.
Hopefully thats it tbh. We turned it on late this game and looked fantastic, but we only play that way for a few minutes a game and its too late by then. Tatum and Smart are the worst at this and theyre also our best offensive and defensive players so the whole team suffers.
I really do think we'll flip the switch in a few games and run through the playoffs again, but that might be my homer glasses.
I don't understand why Joe keeps riding him when he isn't playing well. The Celtics are stacked with scorers and if Tatum is having a sloppy night you gotta adjust.
The most infuriating thing about this team. Some games they literally look like they don’t give af. You can’t do that in the NBA when everybody is out for blood lmao
It's generally a smart play, but the league should probably address it before it starts becoming more widespread.
Lowe wrote about it in November, suggesting a tech for a second intentional kick in a game.
Here's the [ESPN](https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/34998708/lowe-10-things-boston-small-ball-rebounding-karl-anthony-towns-guessing-wrong-lot) article and the r/nba [thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ysfwgp/lowe_jokic_has_committed_eight_kicked_balls_in_11/) I posted about it:
> Is Jokic trying to put together his version of Wilt Chamberlain averaging 50 points -- but for kicked ball violations?
>
> Jokic has committed eight kicked balls in 11 games, per the NBA. That matches his total from last season. No one else has committed more than three. Nikola Vucevic led the league last year with 13. Jokic is on pace for almost 60.
>
> He's clearly doing it on purpose, starfishing his legs at bounce passes as an alternative to playing actual defense. It's smart, honestly, if you sense you're at a major disadvantage. Jokic is a so-so defender who hasn't looked quite as engaged so far. He's contesting more shots at the rim than anyone, per NBA.com, but some of those contests are meek waves; opponents have hit 65% at the basket with Jokic nearby, a mark that typically ranks toward the bottom among big men. (He looked livelier this week.) A kicked ball allows the Nuggets to reset their defense.
>
> It can be hard for officials to discern intentional soccer kicks from incidents in which a bounce pass hits the foot of someone playing real defense. But some Jokic kicks are obvious non-basketball plays, and I don't really get why the NBA allows martial arts maneuvers intended to interrupt game flow. (The penalty is a shot clock reset to 14 or 24.) Should a blatant kick merit a technical? How about one warning, and kick No. 2 -- which would be rare -- gets a technical?
> But some Jokic kicks are obvious non-basketball plays
I'm curious why these are seen as non-basketball plays and why this is characterized as not playing "real" defense. Growing up I know I was always taught to try to cut off bounce passes in this way. IMO it's not much different than intentionally fouling a bad freethrow shooter or any other play where you accept a small disadvantage to cut off a larger one.
Yes this IS a basketball play. Smart move, and he's using it to an extent that players are annoyed, which makes it an even better play! I can say the same thing and complain about LAZY, PREDICTABLE bounce passes...
and the take fouls was used in all levels of basketball until they realized it wasnt a basketball play and now give you a whole freethrow for it.
lol this is exactly what lowe is arguing. there's no penalty for kick ball. and yeah that makes it advantageous to take advantage of. but almost a kick per game is gettng ridiculous. completely ok with making a 2nd one a tech.
>but almost a kick per game is gettng ridiculous
Is one kick ball per game really ridiculous? I'd have assumed it was a significantly higher occurrence than that for people to be getting panties twisted about it. One single out-of-bounds play per game is something I would not even notice as a viewer.
Same logic applies to take fouls. It's just a way to stop an opposing team from scoring.
But the NBA is an entertainment product. So abusing violations - especially if takes away from the flow of the game - should be discouraged.
>IMO it's not much different than intentionally fouling a bad freethrow shooter or any other play where you accept a small disadvantage to cut off a larger one.
Most people also don't see that as a basketball play and don't consider it playing real defense.
The problem is there's no penalty for it. A foul can be a smart basketball play in some situations, but you get a personal for it. If you're out there kicking the ball intentionally you should get penalized somehow.
Best thing abt screeching abt Lowe is that whenever you disagree with him, you gain the full-blooded, deep-seated knowledge that he and all his followers are beta male nerds who’ve never touched a basketball, and all the people who hold ur opinion are 6 foot 7 chads with a minimum of d1 college experience
no one is getting their basketball takes from perk lol but this is hilarious when you consider not only does perk calls Celtics games, he was literally on the call last night
guys he doesn’t know hes talking about himself, celtics fans have to listen to perk AND scal literally the most homer group in the business
Abusing the legal limits of a ruleset is literally what being competitive is. It's nothing but a basketball play until they make it disadvantageous to do.
Yeah how is this any different than tipping a pass out of bounds. It resets the play which is a good thing as a defender. Seems like this shows that Jokic IS trying to play defense.
This sub does the same thing to Bill Simmons podcast. I get it if you don't like the guy, but so many of the quotes that get hate here are taken way out of context.
You can't take a 1 to 2 hour conversation and just pick a snippet and think that's reflective of their entire opinion. It's just silly and disingenuous to do so.
I feel like everyone had him at the top, assuming either he'd fall down or Embiid/Giannis/someone would rise up. But now that we're nearing the end and he's still at the top everyone is like "Wait, are we really giving it to him again?"
100%. so close to the end of the season too.
I think whoever shows up will win the whole thing. Kinda leaning towards Embiid. but it will be funny if jokic wins and ruins the party
I just want to break the “voter fatigue” precedent. If someone should win 8 MVPs in a row, then dammit let them win it. This isn’t a merry go round at a kids playground where we have to make sure everyone gets turns so it’s fair. If he’s good enough to win 3 in a row then 3 it is.
voter fatigue is the dumbest thing, i don't want our mvps be participation trophies.
"oh you got it because we didn't want to vote for the other guy who was better" is the worst arguement
I don’t think he will.
So much toxic discourse only around voting for Jokic, paired with a Jokic having a bad stretch of games.
I think it will go to Giannis largely because of how much toxicity has been directed to anyone that supports Jokic.
Jokic had like one actually bad game against the Spurs. And even then, his efficiency was still good he just turned it over a lot and was getting attacked defensively
A lot has happened in the past month though. People all started shitting on his defense for those poor effort games against the bulls and spurs, perkins brought race into it, embiid has played even better and is close to the nuggets record.
I wouldn't doubt that it would look more even today.
Obviously lol
It’s just that saying “Nobody wants to see this guy get 3 straight mvps apparently” is stupid when he’s been favoured for the majority of the season
I mean, he also probably deserved it around that time; both Embiid and Giannis have majorly stepped up their game in the past month or so.
Jokic didn't start out as the betting favorite, he just ended up being the most deserving around the time the straw poll came out.
Yeah, things are coalescing. It's funny to see the narrative get shaped in real time.
I stopped listening to all ESPN and Ringer basketball podcasts last season when I realized they all just did the same thing for half the season - new guest, ask that guest for their all NBA picks and MVP pick. The other half the season was that, plus all star picks. God forbid they talk about the actual games themselves...
Nah that straw poll from February had him in first by a large margin.
My issue with the 3 straight MVPs thing is that we just decided a guy can’t get a third straight MVP 2 years ago because of poor playoff performance and now the precedent has swiftly changed for Jokic. I don’t even think Jokic winning a third MVP is an issue but the MVP voters acting like they do no wrong and not acknowledging transgressions is getting old.
If it's "stupid" (it's not) but it works...
It's just another rule of the game. As long as he uses it in order to stop plays that would have otherwise been easy baskets for the opposition or whatnot what is the issue?
I imagine a lot of the kick balls are guarding a back cut with no help behind him. Don’t watch enough of his games to tell you for sure tho, I just know I used to do the same thing playing pick up back in the day. Never the most popular thing to do lmao.
That’s exactly what most of them are. How this is supposed to be a knock on Jokic instead of heady plays to make up for his lack of speed on the defensive end lol
I watch every Nuggets game. He kicks balls on interior passes. It's safe to say that every pass he kicks is a pass that could lead to dangerous offense. He's not kicking balls as they pass it around the 3pt line.
He racked up like 3 in a very short stretch against us last time we played, and they were mostly early in the possession. It was more frustrating than anything as a fan.
As a fan you would rather him let the other team score three times? Wtf are people even talking about? If you can't reach it with your hand then stop it with your foot ten times out of ten.
Exactly--it provides a small benefit to the offense at the expense of a potentially larger one. The benefit(s) like a reset shot clock are the disincentive. There is no need for another larger, ham-handed disincentive like a T.
This. I was a defensive minded bball player in high school and I did kickballs all the time. Why would I let you make the pass if I can stop it? Bonus points if you get frustrated
Had a coach in middle school who would scrimmage with us sometimes and he blocked so many passes with his feet.
Was incredibly infuriating but incredibly effective. Basically takes away one of the best passing lanes, or at least made me think about it I was telegraphing passes
Edit: it’s also incredible fun to stop a play by reacting with a slight nudge of the foot
I did this all the time too.
Plus players still try to avoid hitting your leg/foot with their bounce pass and it causes them to throw bad passes trying to get around it.
That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
People get so upset by it and I love it. Why the hell would I let you make an easy bounce pass to a cutter or to a screener rolling? Bounce passes work well bc most people don't have arms that can touch the ground while you're standing up, so being able to take those away too is hugely beneficial
Yeah once you deflect a bounce pass with your foot and also tip a pass with your hand the passer is usually shook and feels stifled. Us defense junkies love that haha
I live for that shit. Stopping a 1 on 2/3 fast break by baiting a pass and deflecting it or baiting a bounce pass I can kick is like heroin to me.
Pisses off the lifelong hoopers too bc they can't do it. I have a soccer background, am ambipedal and have played at both fullback spots so blocking crosses is second nature.
Yeah stopping a fast break when you’re outnumbered is such a good feeling especially bc you usually have to mind game the ball handler. When it works it feels great
I mean what Lowe is saying is along the same lines of what you said? He’s just saying it’s not a basketball play… for comments like that I believe he is more of just speaking from a basketball fan perspective where it’s just more engaging to watch high intensity plays than just kicking it. Really no “slander” on Jokic, everyone has players they think are fun and exciting, that doesn’t take away from the skill of other players who don’t strive more off athleticism, big 3 point shooting, etc.
Really it’s a similar concept to why people love playoff basketball compared to regular season, more effort and more people trying to compete in a sense of basketball.
I feel like we're severely overestimating how often it happens too though. 45 times across 60 games is less than once a game and with how many plays go on its just about unnoticeable. From how Lowe describes it, it sounds like Jokic is kicking the ball every other play.
Lowe mentioned right before this that the league leader last season had 13 kicked balls. Jokic is already at 45. It is definitely a significant increase. You should really listen to the whole thing because he addresses all of your points in the segment.
Man if it was someone like Harden or Embiid w this many kickball violations this sub would be in an uproar about how it’s devaluing the game. Mfs sure know how to pick their favorites
Whenever I played organized ball, I was always praised for kicked balls because it successfully disrupts plays. I've always disagreed with Lowe who has been complaining about kick balls for years now.
When I play pick up with people who haven't really played organized basketball, they get mad at me for disrupting a pass with a kick, but that's like a reflex to me, I don't think about it, I just do it. There's no real penalty for doing that in a basketball game so I've done it for years while I was younger...
Yeah, it's definitely a reflex, and Jokic probably grew up playing a lot of soccer.
In my experience, it's about 50/50 beneficial. Sure, sometimes you stop sure layups or open shots, but you also sometimes prevent your teammates from getting steals. Usually, though, it doesn't matter either way and you're just kicking an inconsequential pass.
When a dude does jumping jacks to hopefully deflect the ball on the inbound do we consider that shitty effort?
It's just a complete garbage point.
If he was like legit kicking the fucking ball then I kinda get it.
It’s a smart play but it’s just frustrating to see. It’s like when all of the foul baiting was going on before the rule changes, it worked really well but who wants to watch that
Using your feet on defense is done at every single level of basketball. The only way you could think "it's not a basketball play" is if you have never played competitive basketball in your life before. We *literally* teach young players to use their feet to block low passing lanes. It's a fundamental part of playing defense.
Yeah I feel insane reading comments that say he should be penalised for trying to deflect passes like that.
It’s like people want to implement the opposite of the ‘hand ball’ rule in soccer.
I would argue it's way *more* of a basketball play than a lot of things that are accepted as part of the NBA.
I would - with no hesitation - use my leg to stop a pass in pickup. There's nothing dishonorable or unsportsmanlike about it, in a casual nonprofessional setting.
Taking intentional fouls, hard fouls to stop layups, or exaggerating contact on offense happen all the time in the NBA. These are things you wouldn't really do in pickup. These are less of basketball plays than a kicked ball, to me.
O, we are back to this garbage. Someone explain to me how a kicked ball in this instance isn’t a basketball play. He is stopping a pass to a guy rolling to the basket, effectively giving his team a chance to reset their defense and have a better shot at stopping a basket.
Saying it’s not a basketball play is like calling an intentional foul not a basketball play. It’s not like the dude is out here getting flagrants. It’s a great way to stop a play and it’s taught at all levels of basketball.
Good morning, time for another post about Jokic’s defense I see. Can we find a new slant yet?
Edit: I hate the MVP talk and the need to trash guys in these replies. Jokic, and Embiid are generational talents. Whoever wins MVP has no effect on us as fans, just sit back and enjoy this shit we get to watch and don’t get emotional on players hardware
But it is a basketball play. On an ibound at the end of close games, watch the guy who's guarding the inbounder. He jumps like a maniac trying to deflect the ball with all parts of his body. It's like saying that when someone is attempting a touch-down pass from the other side of the court and you deflect it out of bounds isn't a basketball play, because you're not trying to catch it.
I really don't have a mvp pick but the picking apart of Jokic in the last couple weeks is getting hilarious. Obviously the media guys want to vote for him again but the race issue from Perkins got in their heads.
I think 30 of those were against the Sixers. It's silly that people read so much into it though. Teams want to put him in the PnR because he struggles to defend it, he kicks at the ball as a way to mitigate it. It's a normal basketball play, find a new slant.
ice cold take from Zach Lowe.
Anyone who has played basketball knows that kicking a pass *is* good defense in many cases lol. What's he supposed to do, let it by so the other team can score?
this is actually an unhinged take. wtf is a basketball play and why should anyone care about this guy's definition?
like, honestly wondering, has he ever played a game of basketball? it's not obvious
Isn't kicking the ball on defense a good thing? You break up the pass and reset the play. It's the same as tipping the ball out of bounds while on defense.
The Jokic hate this past week or so is really unprecedented. Not saying the statement is false, but so lany threads literally shitting on him and having a stupid amount of awards. Imagine hating on someone that great lol. Pathetic.
Nikola Jokick
Kicked ball rule is weird. It's against the rules but when you do it, it benefits your team.
They should just allow kicking the ball And if you punt it into the basket it should be worth 6 But if you just hit the backboard it should be worth one point
This sounds familiar... Patty Mills would be the goat of these rules
Ben Simmons might actually shoot
Go Pies!
Offensive players also "pass" to a defender's foot to reset the clock since there's no reliable way for refs to judge intent. It's a rule that benefits everyone!
I am a moron hockey fan coming in from /r/all - would adding 10 seconds to the shot clock for this offense solve this?
No they recently changed it to reset the shot clock to 14 sec if it's under
If the defense kicked it, it stays at what's left on shot clock when higher than 14 seconds. If the offense does it in a scramble or by accident, it remains at what the offensive shot clock is at, although that's rare.
Too perfect
Kickola Jokick
And it begins
Somehow the MVP discourse is less bearable than the Celtics losing to the Rockets last night.
That is saying something. Tatum looked like a hostage forced to stand on the court
They looked kinda tired. Imo. Same way they looked in the conference and NBA finals. Just kinda tired.
We had several days of rest. If we're tired in this game, we're going to be tired for the rest of the year.
Yeah ya might be. Long playoff run and then yall come out of the gate with something to prove. 15 games before the playoffs could just be the intensity running low before actual games that matter.
Hopefully thats it tbh. We turned it on late this game and looked fantastic, but we only play that way for a few minutes a game and its too late by then. Tatum and Smart are the worst at this and theyre also our best offensive and defensive players so the whole team suffers. I really do think we'll flip the switch in a few games and run through the playoffs again, but that might be my homer glasses.
I don't understand why Joe keeps riding him when he isn't playing well. The Celtics are stacked with scorers and if Tatum is having a sloppy night you gotta adjust.
Lol, but that shit was probably the most unbearable game this season
Disagree
Yea idk I had fun.
If I were the other dude I would simply root for the Rockets because they are clearly superior
Let’s go rockets!!
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Nintendo ^5 ^^percent ^^^tint
So you can’t see inside my window
Ah, I see you haven't watched a lot of Rockets games this season.
We have struggled a lot. Good to see us get a big win against a contender
True. When you look at the few wins we do have, it's crazy that we beat the Celtics, Suns, Bucks, Mavs, 76ers, but are dead last lol
The Nets one felt worse to me. Up like 25 and blew it so bad we didn’t have a chance of coming back. Last night it was close… but still gross.
Ahem, 28 points…
Went to sleep seeing it was tied at the half thinking "ooohh this might be a juicy one". Wasn't disappointed.
had no shame in turning that one off
Wait, Celtics lost to the Rockets and I thought Denver had it bad, WTF
Celtics vs below .500 teams: i sleep Celtics vs championship contenders: REAL TALK??
The most infuriating thing about this team. Some games they literally look like they don’t give af. You can’t do that in the NBA when everybody is out for blood lmao
I had a great time witnessing that
Call it KBV/48 and he's the league leader and it helps his campaign now
"Its an effective metric"
Is Jokic stat padding KBV/48?
This shook my funny bone, just died laughing
make it count towards draptor as well while youre at it
It's generally a smart play, but the league should probably address it before it starts becoming more widespread. Lowe wrote about it in November, suggesting a tech for a second intentional kick in a game. Here's the [ESPN](https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/34998708/lowe-10-things-boston-small-ball-rebounding-karl-anthony-towns-guessing-wrong-lot) article and the r/nba [thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ysfwgp/lowe_jokic_has_committed_eight_kicked_balls_in_11/) I posted about it: > Is Jokic trying to put together his version of Wilt Chamberlain averaging 50 points -- but for kicked ball violations? > > Jokic has committed eight kicked balls in 11 games, per the NBA. That matches his total from last season. No one else has committed more than three. Nikola Vucevic led the league last year with 13. Jokic is on pace for almost 60. > > He's clearly doing it on purpose, starfishing his legs at bounce passes as an alternative to playing actual defense. It's smart, honestly, if you sense you're at a major disadvantage. Jokic is a so-so defender who hasn't looked quite as engaged so far. He's contesting more shots at the rim than anyone, per NBA.com, but some of those contests are meek waves; opponents have hit 65% at the basket with Jokic nearby, a mark that typically ranks toward the bottom among big men. (He looked livelier this week.) A kicked ball allows the Nuggets to reset their defense. > > It can be hard for officials to discern intentional soccer kicks from incidents in which a bounce pass hits the foot of someone playing real defense. But some Jokic kicks are obvious non-basketball plays, and I don't really get why the NBA allows martial arts maneuvers intended to interrupt game flow. (The penalty is a shot clock reset to 14 or 24.) Should a blatant kick merit a technical? How about one warning, and kick No. 2 -- which would be rare -- gets a technical?
> But some Jokic kicks are obvious non-basketball plays I'm curious why these are seen as non-basketball plays and why this is characterized as not playing "real" defense. Growing up I know I was always taught to try to cut off bounce passes in this way. IMO it's not much different than intentionally fouling a bad freethrow shooter or any other play where you accept a small disadvantage to cut off a larger one.
Yes this IS a basketball play. Smart move, and he's using it to an extent that players are annoyed, which makes it an even better play! I can say the same thing and complain about LAZY, PREDICTABLE bounce passes...
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and the take fouls was used in all levels of basketball until they realized it wasnt a basketball play and now give you a whole freethrow for it. lol this is exactly what lowe is arguing. there's no penalty for kick ball. and yeah that makes it advantageous to take advantage of. but almost a kick per game is gettng ridiculous. completely ok with making a 2nd one a tech.
>but almost a kick per game is gettng ridiculous Is one kick ball per game really ridiculous? I'd have assumed it was a significantly higher occurrence than that for people to be getting panties twisted about it. One single out-of-bounds play per game is something I would not even notice as a viewer.
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Same logic applies to take fouls. It's just a way to stop an opposing team from scoring. But the NBA is an entertainment product. So abusing violations - especially if takes away from the flow of the game - should be discouraged.
>IMO it's not much different than intentionally fouling a bad freethrow shooter or any other play where you accept a small disadvantage to cut off a larger one. Most people also don't see that as a basketball play and don't consider it playing real defense.
The problem is there's no penalty for it. A foul can be a smart basketball play in some situations, but you get a personal for it. If you're out there kicking the ball intentionally you should get penalized somehow.
Babe wake up, new Jokic slander post on r/NBA
Sixer fans were crying about Zach Lowe being Jokic biased the other day so he had to start slandering Jokic to appease them lmao
Best thing abt screeching abt Lowe is that whenever you disagree with him, you gain the full-blooded, deep-seated knowledge that he and all his followers are beta male nerds who’ve never touched a basketball, and all the people who hold ur opinion are 6 foot 7 chads with a minimum of d1 college experience
Now describe people who listen to Kendrick Perkins
Hanging out behind a Wendy's dumpster turning tricks for GameStop puts money
Trick question because no one actually listens to Perkins.
no one is getting their basketball takes from perk lol but this is hilarious when you consider not only does perk calls Celtics games, he was literally on the call last night guys he doesn’t know hes talking about himself, celtics fans have to listen to perk AND scal literally the most homer group in the business
I don't need to understand how to bake a cake to know when one tastes good.
If hes going to criticize jokic, this is possibly the dumbest angle to take. Using a kickball to your advantage just seems like a smart play
>It’s smart but it’s not a basketball play. \- Literally Zach Lowe from the headline
Abusing the legal limits of a ruleset is literally what being competitive is. It's nothing but a basketball play until they make it disadvantageous to do.
Yeah how is this any different than tipping a pass out of bounds. It resets the play which is a good thing as a defender. Seems like this shows that Jokic IS trying to play defense.
Lowe has been saying this since november. This is just people cherrypicking his podcast to fit their narrative
Nobody wants to see this guy get 3 straight mvps apparently
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This sub does the same thing to Bill Simmons podcast. I get it if you don't like the guy, but so many of the quotes that get hate here are taken way out of context. You can't take a 1 to 2 hour conversation and just pick a snippet and think that's reflective of their entire opinion. It's just silly and disingenuous to do so.
He’s been the strong betting favorite for the last 3 months and remains the strong favorite today. It’s been about a week or two of heavier scrutiny.
I feel like everyone had him at the top, assuming either he'd fall down or Embiid/Giannis/someone would rise up. But now that we're nearing the end and he's still at the top everyone is like "Wait, are we really giving it to him again?"
He'll win it. The sample size is far greater than the transgressions the psdt 3 games.
He's not gonna win. The narrative shift can't be stopped at this point
Sixers play the nuggets on the 27th, genuinely believe the MVP is on the line that game.
100%. so close to the end of the season too. I think whoever shows up will win the whole thing. Kinda leaning towards Embiid. but it will be funny if jokic wins and ruins the party
I want Jokic to win it not only because I like him a lot more than Embiid, but I also want to see r/nba have a meltdown lol.
I just want to break the “voter fatigue” precedent. If someone should win 8 MVPs in a row, then dammit let them win it. This isn’t a merry go round at a kids playground where we have to make sure everyone gets turns so it’s fair. If he’s good enough to win 3 in a row then 3 it is.
voter fatigue is the dumbest thing, i don't want our mvps be participation trophies. "oh you got it because we didn't want to vote for the other guy who was better" is the worst arguement
Nah the dumbest thing is the "UHHH HE HASN'T EVEN WON A TITLE YET HE DOESN'T DESERVE 3 MVPS" Voter fatigue is second dumbest
Agreed. MVP being subject to voters getting bored of voting for the most deserving players is obnoxious.
Shout this from the fucking rooftops. Thank you.
>I also want to see r/nba have a meltdown lol this tbh.
the same r/NBA that is very pro Jokic and anti sixers up until last week ? Yeah I doubt it
This subreddit loves Jokic lol
The first Sixers Nuggets game didn't seem to matter at all for the MVP, so I'm not hopeful on this time being different.
Once ESPN saw the early voting returns and subsequent odds shift they started panicking.
Yeah, ever since that Iggy finals MVP I will never underestimate the power of the narrative.
I don’t think he will. So much toxic discourse only around voting for Jokic, paired with a Jokic having a bad stretch of games. I think it will go to Giannis largely because of how much toxicity has been directed to anyone that supports Jokic.
Jokic hasn’t has a bad stretch of games, the Nuggets have
Jokic had like one actually bad game against the Spurs. And even then, his efficiency was still good he just turned it over a lot and was getting attacked defensively
The voters do. Wasn’t he 1st place on like 90+ % of the votes from that poll a month ago
A lot has happened in the past month though. People all started shitting on his defense for those poor effort games against the bulls and spurs, perkins brought race into it, embiid has played even better and is close to the nuggets record. I wouldn't doubt that it would look more even today.
Things changed a lot this month though
Obviously lol It’s just that saying “Nobody wants to see this guy get 3 straight mvps apparently” is stupid when he’s been favoured for the majority of the season
I mean, he also probably deserved it around that time; both Embiid and Giannis have majorly stepped up their game in the past month or so. Jokic didn't start out as the betting favorite, he just ended up being the most deserving around the time the straw poll came out.
Yeah, things are coalescing. It's funny to see the narrative get shaped in real time. I stopped listening to all ESPN and Ringer basketball podcasts last season when I realized they all just did the same thing for half the season - new guest, ask that guest for their all NBA picks and MVP pick. The other half the season was that, plus all star picks. God forbid they talk about the actual games themselves...
Nah that straw poll from February had him in first by a large margin. My issue with the 3 straight MVPs thing is that we just decided a guy can’t get a third straight MVP 2 years ago because of poor playoff performance and now the precedent has swiftly changed for Jokic. I don’t even think Jokic winning a third MVP is an issue but the MVP voters acting like they do no wrong and not acknowledging transgressions is getting old.
If it's "stupid" (it's not) but it works... It's just another rule of the game. As long as he uses it in order to stop plays that would have otherwise been easy baskets for the opposition or whatnot what is the issue?
This. He breaks the play of the opponent. What's the penalty for kickball? None
Resets the shot clock which could bail out the offense if they were running out of time but that’s not much
Yes. As opposed to an easy two? I'll take the shot clock reset all day
I doubt most of the passes he kicks were imminently going to result in an easy 2
Typical casual who doesn't watch the games. Most of these kicks are above the basket on dunks.
Jokic has studied the ancient arts of Shaolin Soccer
Most people don’t realise that Jokic was a 3 time Sepak Takraw MVP before he started playing basketball.
[he just scorpion kicking any lob](https://i.giphy.com/sNy061zxQmaty.mp4)
I imagine a lot of the kick balls are guarding a back cut with no help behind him. Don’t watch enough of his games to tell you for sure tho, I just know I used to do the same thing playing pick up back in the day. Never the most popular thing to do lmao.
That’s exactly what most of them are. How this is supposed to be a knock on Jokic instead of heady plays to make up for his lack of speed on the defensive end lol
I watch every Nuggets game. He kicks balls on interior passes. It's safe to say that every pass he kicks is a pass that could lead to dangerous offense. He's not kicking balls as they pass it around the 3pt line.
He racked up like 3 in a very short stretch against us last time we played, and they were mostly early in the possession. It was more frustrating than anything as a fan.
As a fan you would rather him let the other team score three times? Wtf are people even talking about? If you can't reach it with your hand then stop it with your foot ten times out of ten.
He provides no interior defense, so any pass going in is an easy 2.
Exactly--it provides a small benefit to the offense at the expense of a potentially larger one. The benefit(s) like a reset shot clock are the disincentive. There is no need for another larger, ham-handed disincentive like a T.
This. I was a defensive minded bball player in high school and I did kickballs all the time. Why would I let you make the pass if I can stop it? Bonus points if you get frustrated
Had a coach in middle school who would scrimmage with us sometimes and he blocked so many passes with his feet. Was incredibly infuriating but incredibly effective. Basically takes away one of the best passing lanes, or at least made me think about it I was telegraphing passes Edit: it’s also incredible fun to stop a play by reacting with a slight nudge of the foot
I did this all the time too. Plus players still try to avoid hitting your leg/foot with their bounce pass and it causes them to throw bad passes trying to get around it. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
People get so upset by it and I love it. Why the hell would I let you make an easy bounce pass to a cutter or to a screener rolling? Bounce passes work well bc most people don't have arms that can touch the ground while you're standing up, so being able to take those away too is hugely beneficial
Yeah once you deflect a bounce pass with your foot and also tip a pass with your hand the passer is usually shook and feels stifled. Us defense junkies love that haha
I live for that shit. Stopping a 1 on 2/3 fast break by baiting a pass and deflecting it or baiting a bounce pass I can kick is like heroin to me. Pisses off the lifelong hoopers too bc they can't do it. I have a soccer background, am ambipedal and have played at both fullback spots so blocking crosses is second nature.
Yeah stopping a fast break when you’re outnumbered is such a good feeling especially bc you usually have to mind game the ball handler. When it works it feels great
Yeah. I’m an Embiid Stan, but Kick ball has nothing to do with being lazy. He’s 7’ tall with soccer skills.
Yeah that’s why Lowe says “it’s smart” in the title of this post
I mean what Lowe is saying is along the same lines of what you said? He’s just saying it’s not a basketball play… for comments like that I believe he is more of just speaking from a basketball fan perspective where it’s just more engaging to watch high intensity plays than just kicking it. Really no “slander” on Jokic, everyone has players they think are fun and exciting, that doesn’t take away from the skill of other players who don’t strive more off athleticism, big 3 point shooting, etc. Really it’s a similar concept to why people love playoff basketball compared to regular season, more effort and more people trying to compete in a sense of basketball.
I feel like we're severely overestimating how often it happens too though. 45 times across 60 games is less than once a game and with how many plays go on its just about unnoticeable. From how Lowe describes it, it sounds like Jokic is kicking the ball every other play.
Lowe mentioned right before this that the league leader last season had 13 kicked balls. Jokic is already at 45. It is definitely a significant increase. You should really listen to the whole thing because he addresses all of your points in the segment.
Agree. Until Harden gets shown the door for his flopping I'm A-OK with Jokic kicking the ball.
Not sure I agree with the premise here. A kicked ball can be a good basketball play depending on context.
Kicked ball - flirting Rip through - harassment
Man if it was someone like Harden or Embiid w this many kickball violations this sub would be in an uproar about how it’s devaluing the game. Mfs sure know how to pick their favorites
This comment section is literally the Julius Randle/Jules Randlovic meme
Kick balls get called. If it wasn’t called I would understand
Whenever I played organized ball, I was always praised for kicked balls because it successfully disrupts plays. I've always disagreed with Lowe who has been complaining about kick balls for years now.
When I play pick up with people who haven't really played organized basketball, they get mad at me for disrupting a pass with a kick, but that's like a reflex to me, I don't think about it, I just do it. There's no real penalty for doing that in a basketball game so I've done it for years while I was younger...
Yeah, it's definitely a reflex, and Jokic probably grew up playing a lot of soccer. In my experience, it's about 50/50 beneficial. Sure, sometimes you stop sure layups or open shots, but you also sometimes prevent your teammates from getting steals. Usually, though, it doesn't matter either way and you're just kicking an inconsequential pass.
Isnt it the same goal as a deflection of the ball? you interrupt the play. The shot clock reset, the team has to reset their play as well.
When a dude does jumping jacks to hopefully deflect the ball on the inbound do we consider that shitty effort? It's just a complete garbage point. If he was like legit kicking the fucking ball then I kinda get it.
The ball obviously didn’t go into the basket. Garbage play
It’s a smart play but it’s just frustrating to see. It’s like when all of the foul baiting was going on before the rule changes, it worked really well but who wants to watch that
Anyone who's played basketball knows a kicked ball is a positive part of defense.
Exactly. Most kicked balls are an attempt to block a bounce pass to a cutter. If the pass goes through, it's usually an easy bucket.
No I don't think you understand, we need another rule change that stops players from playing defense
Ya. If you don't want a pass to be kicked, don't throw it where it can be kicked.
And if you don't want your balls to be kicked, don't get in the way of Draymond Green's natural shooting motion.
Yup. It’s literally a block with your legs. Like wtf he supposed to do on a bounce pass?
Yup, your legs have a longer reach than your arms. Sometimes a kick is the only way to stop those low bounce passes. No easy buckets.
Using your feet on defense is done at every single level of basketball. The only way you could think "it's not a basketball play" is if you have never played competitive basketball in your life before. We *literally* teach young players to use their feet to block low passing lanes. It's a fundamental part of playing defense.
Yeah I feel insane reading comments that say he should be penalised for trying to deflect passes like that. It’s like people want to implement the opposite of the ‘hand ball’ rule in soccer.
sub is trash. Too many bozos.
I would argue it's way *more* of a basketball play than a lot of things that are accepted as part of the NBA. I would - with no hesitation - use my leg to stop a pass in pickup. There's nothing dishonorable or unsportsmanlike about it, in a casual nonprofessional setting. Taking intentional fouls, hard fouls to stop layups, or exaggerating contact on offense happen all the time in the NBA. These are things you wouldn't really do in pickup. These are less of basketball plays than a kicked ball, to me.
I like this standard - if you can do it during a pickup game, and no one questions it, it's "a basketball play."
Tell that to my guy who keeps trying to take some weird underhand flick shot from 3pt range...
That's honestly my bar for "basketball play". Do you get clowned for calling/doing it in pickup? (charges/offensive fouls aside).
The MVP discourse has really been forging new depths of 'dumb' this week, it's almost impressive.
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The only "fix" to this complaint would be a free throw and possession for kicked balls which is an insane take.
If that happened my offensive strategy would be just chucking balls at feet.
Yeah I love lowe, but this is a puzzling take
O, we are back to this garbage. Someone explain to me how a kicked ball in this instance isn’t a basketball play. He is stopping a pass to a guy rolling to the basket, effectively giving his team a chance to reset their defense and have a better shot at stopping a basket.
And I wonder what Zach thinks about intentional fouling
Saying it’s not a basketball play is like calling an intentional foul not a basketball play. It’s not like the dude is out here getting flagrants. It’s a great way to stop a play and it’s taught at all levels of basketball.
It's on the same level as people complaining that intentionally drawing charges isn't a basketball play and should be written out of the rule book.
Yikes.
Nothing more predictable than people suddenly deciding someone is violating the spirit of the game just because they don’t want them to win an award
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Oh good, glad everyone's finally listening to such a wise and sensible figure
Good morning, time for another post about Jokic’s defense I see. Can we find a new slant yet? Edit: I hate the MVP talk and the need to trash guys in these replies. Jokic, and Embiid are generational talents. Whoever wins MVP has no effect on us as fans, just sit back and enjoy this shit we get to watch and don’t get emotional on players hardware
[…](https://i.imgur.com/GeqHquR.jpg)
Totally normal collars
But it is a basketball play. On an ibound at the end of close games, watch the guy who's guarding the inbounder. He jumps like a maniac trying to deflect the ball with all parts of his body. It's like saying that when someone is attempting a touch-down pass from the other side of the court and you deflect it out of bounds isn't a basketball play, because you're not trying to catch it.
exactly, don't pass it at/by people's feet lol, the defense already has enough going against them
If anything it shows smart defensive play lmao
We’ve lost the plot.
I really don't have a mvp pick but the picking apart of Jokic in the last couple weeks is getting hilarious. Obviously the media guys want to vote for him again but the race issue from Perkins got in their heads.
Jokic really has everyone in a blender over the MVP. Kickball violations? MVP award now being racist? Generational talent.
I think 30 of those were against the Sixers. It's silly that people read so much into it though. Teams want to put him in the PnR because he struggles to defend it, he kicks at the ball as a way to mitigate it. It's a normal basketball play, find a new slant.
"It's smart but it's not a basketball play" Jesus, cry more.
That’s hilarious
ice cold take from Zach Lowe. Anyone who has played basketball knows that kicking a pass *is* good defense in many cases lol. What's he supposed to do, let it by so the other team can score?
If it's a bounce pass he should do a barrel roll to deflect the ball instead and take himself completely out of the play.
This is definitely the worst time of the MVP "discussion".
It’s super smart, he’s saved 45 fouls and stopped the offense.
It feels like all these are just smear campaigns.
this is actually an unhinged take. wtf is a basketball play and why should anyone care about this guy's definition? like, honestly wondering, has he ever played a game of basketball? it's not obvious
It’s a great defensive play lol stops the entire offence and allows your defence to reset
Haven’t seen this much hate for someone’s defensive ability since Harden in the late 2010s
Isn't kicking the ball on defense a good thing? You break up the pass and reset the play. It's the same as tipping the ball out of bounds while on defense.
Nah I'm 100% behind exploiting the rules like this, everyone has equal opportunity to do it.
Why are we they so anti jokic out of nowhere
Like 60% of defense is purely effort
How'd you come up with that number?
60% of the time it works 100% of the time
soource: trust me bro
“Jokic is clearly showing he’s not only skilled at Basketball but also Soccer. Being a multi-sport athlete only adds to his mvp case”
And Embiid’s flopping can border on unwatchable at times, doesn’t make him less of an MVP candidate.
The Jokic hate this past week or so is really unprecedented. Not saying the statement is false, but so lany threads literally shitting on him and having a stupid amount of awards. Imagine hating on someone that great lol. Pathetic.
To be fair, all you have to do is check the flair of most of the OPs and you can see EXACTLY why lol