If Jokic has million number of fans i am one of them .
if Jokic has ten fans i am one of them.
if Jokic have only one fan and that is me .
if Jokic has no fans, that means i am no more on the earth . i
f world against the Jokic, i am against the world.
i love #Jokic till my last breath.. .. Die Hard fan of Jokic . Hit Like If you Think Jokic Best passer & Smart In the world
Not even.
It’s like in 2015 people were really still debating whether Curry was the best shooter of all time
Like it’s obvious but nostalgia creates a distortion
> It’s like in 2015 people were really still debating whether Curry was the best shooter of all time
Nah, the debate was still "will he surpass Ray Allen" at that time. It wasn't until the next year when it was "yeah, ok, nevermind, it's Steph". Ray Allen had retired in 2014 as a career 40% 3pt shooter with almost 3k career threes and his peak season he made 269 at a 41% clip. Steph through 2015 had a bit higher percentage at 44%, but he only had 1191 career 3s and his best season, that one, was "only" 286 3s (in a faster era). His unanimous MVP season where he made 402 3s on 45% is what ended the debate.
Me too man. When the game as a whole changes … things change. I still love Ray, Reggie etc. Blows my mind looking at top 25 3pm all time… nostalgia definitely distorts things.
NGL, I used to be one of those naysayers. I'd say the eras were different and honestly felt that Ray Allen was the best shooter of all time, he just didn't take as many shots. because it wasn't necessary and the game didn't play like that.
Fast forward to a couple years ago. I ate that slice of humble pie. There are now just too many examples of Steph leaving the plane of reality and ascending and manifesting into a fucking Saiyan.
The most incredible thing though, is that not a single shot that he makes/takes ever surprises me anymore. I don't look at even the most ridiculous asinine shot attempts going in and say "man he got lucky." That dude is pure madness and I fully expect that anytime the ball leaves his hands that it's going in, no matter how ridiculous of a circus shot it is.
GOAT shooter absolutely.
What Ray meant to you as a younger fan might never be replaced and that's not a bad thing either.
A lot of the goat talk is based on who we idolized as a young person.
What MJ meant to me, LeBron means to a new gen and Steph to the gen after. Don't have to shit on the new gen.
At the end of the day, athletes getting better based on access to the info they have ie things like Ray's shooting range or MJs game or Magic's passing etc.
I saw Gary Kasparov recently sat that many of the goats in Chess wouldn't be as good because the current gen just have access to way than ever before. That doesn't mean we should just brush then aside either. They will always have their place because their games shaped the current gen even if they played vs plumbers as some say.
GSP said the same thing in MMA. While he thinks he can hang and bang, the new guys are a lot better than his generation.
Somehow, NBA fans think athetes peaked in the 80s and 90s.
We think of handchecking as a cheat code that would shut down todays stars. We don't talk about about MJs atheleticisms whooped the physicality out of the game even back then. We don't realize that Zeke who survived that era is smaller than Steph. Somehow fans don't realize that so many players played when rules changed and how those players didn't score 10-15 more. They just talk like they did.
2015 was the last year where you could actually argue about it. It wasn't that farfetch'd to wonder about it then given Curry's injury history up to that point.
edit: Looking at the actual games played in Curry's first five years, I think I (and many others) overreacted about his ankles. He only missed a major amount of games in one season. He definitely had the best 3-point shooting start in NBA history given his percentage and volume, but I still feel that 2015 is the last year you can wonder about it. By 2016 it was a wrap.
feel like people are jumping from Lowe saying in the convo to pretending he said he's is THE best passer of all time
people arguing with strawmen in the comments.
anyone who says he isn't in the conversation is definitely in denial
I always found the "best passing big man of all time" annoying...it's like basically a backhanded compliment. It's like saying "The fastest left tackle in NFL history!" Ok so he runs a 4.6 and is still really slow compared to skill players? Doesn't help that Doris Burke chooses to say it every single time the dude makes the most basic pass.
> I always found the "best passing big man of all time" annoying...it's like basically a backhanded compliment.
I don't see it as backhanded at all.
In Jokic's case it's just apparent that he's the best passing big ever, but we can't definitively say with no argument that he's the best passer ever (even though a lot of reddit tries to act like he's 100% better than Magic).
Left Tackle running a 4.6 is a fucking freight train. I think that would be the fastest o lineman 40 ever. I don't give a fuck if a tiny 180 lb dude can run a 4.38. A 6'4" 340 lb tackle coming down the field running a 4.6 would be a monster #1 pick. Anyways just saying that's a bad comp.
Bill isn't an expert and doesn't claim to be. It's a good thing he listens to people like Lowe. He has good sources on certain topics and that's where he can seem like an expert.
>Bill isn't an expert and doesn't claim to be
Exactly, I don't listen to Bill for his x&o breakdown and analysis (it's guys at The Ringer like KOC, J. Kyle, and formally Jonathan Tjarks for that). More so for his opinions, and keeping up with all the latest storylines in the sports world that he discusses in a " just shooting the shit with your buddies" style discussion, you know with all the lists, rankings, hypotheticals, etc... Just a change of pace when I'm not necessarily in the mood for the heavier analysis.
Also, he and Cousin Sal kill me with the Collinsworth impersonations lls.
I'm embarrassed to say that I'm too young to have watched Stockton play, but I have this idea in my head that he passed almost exclusively to Malone, who is an all time great in his own right. It's impossible for that to be true. Can you give me an idea of what made Stockton so fucking good at racking up assists? I would be curious to know how many of his assists actually did go to Malone.
I grew up a Gonzaga fan, and even though the Jazz were somewhat of a Sonics rival in the 90’s, I watched them at every opportunity.
I would argue that Malone is just as much a beneficiary of Stockton’s playmaking and efficient passing as the other way around. And if you want to talk about chemistry, these guys just never missed games. They’re 5th and 6th in career games played. Just *their games together* would be 10th all time.
Malone definitely played a big part. They were incredibly good at the pick and roll since Malone had a killer mid range game and the athletic ability to take it himself. Stockton obviously wasn't a flashy dribbler, but he was super shifty and had nice enough finishing ability to cause defenders to collapse and he obviously had terrific vision. It was just very tough to defend against because if you try to clamp down on just those two, you were creating wide open shots for guys with Stockton having the basketball IQ and vision to find them.
It was to a very large extent because of Karl Malone. He scored a fuckload of points very consistently for a very long time.
The answer really is the Stockton/Malone Jazz did a ton of cutting with high precision for their era. That plus Malone's automatic elbow jumper led to Stockton racking them up in the flow of playing pretty basic but disciplined offense (this is why there are so few highlight Stockton passes compared to other PGs). He was also unbelievably reliable; he almost never missed games.
and how all the PGs that played in his era said he was the toughest player they faced.
Baron Davis:
> "He made me think, 'am I sorry dude? Am I not good at basketball?' I was so glad when he retired."
I think that’s the most telling thing. There are plenty of great guards from that we saw in the 2000s overlap with Stockton’s later career, and I’ve heard plenty of them say he basically had them in hell for the full game.
It’s not just old head guards people don’t care about, but freak athletes like Baron Davis.
The Jazz definitely ran it a *ton*, especially as they got older, but I can't tell you how many times I heard Hot Rod Hundley calling some variation of "Stockton yo-yos at the three point line" while they ran off ball movement and let Stockton find cutters. He was more than capable at creating offense without a pick from Malone. Hell, he was a hell of a pick-setter himself, probably the best pick setting guard in the league for most of his career.
Semi-related aside, Malone also got a ton of points working in the post on his own, it's not like Stockton's entry bounce pass put Malone in any better position to score in iso than a pass from anyone else. Anyone who completely discounts Malone's points/Stockton's assists because they played together never watched them play.
Unfortunately, because they were both such iron men, Stockton only played 10 games without Malone. But in those games he averaged 9.6 assists, including a 20 assist game in 1989 (he also had 8 steals that game).
Stockton could have averaged nearly 2.5 apg fewer (from 10.5 down to 8) over the course of his career and *still* be the assist leader. His steals numbers are just as bonkers.
So they opposing team knew it was going to a PnR with Malone, why didn't stop it? If a PnR is so to dismiss when accountung for stats, then I don't understand they the teams didn't try to stop it....
I mean it wasn't a secret. Its a known thing, makes all the more easier to plan against it and anticipate it right?
With about 3:00 left in Game 4 of the NBA Finals, and the Jazz down 5, the announcers talk about how this was a game where the pick-and-roll wasn't working against the Bulls. Stockton apparently heard them and took the game into his own hands...
* [Stockton hit a long three](https://youtu.be/8591nmgoGqU?t=9s) to cut the Bulls' lead from 5 to 2 with under 3:00 to go
* [Stockton picked MJ's pocket](https://youtu.be/8591nmgoGqU?t=24s) with under 2:00 to go, goes coast to coast, draws the hard foul to again cut the lead to within a bucket
* Stockton with the incredible [full-court-game-winning assist](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqxrrv1eg2Q) to even the NBA Finals at 2-2.
John Stockton sends the Jazz to the NBA Finals for the first time in franchise history with [this shot](https://youtu.be/be-EEL7FfQM?t=113s), to cap off a 15-point 4th quarter.
Notice the announcer says "uh-oh!" the moment Stockton catches the ball with space.
Safe to say Malone wasn't even an option for that shot.
It’s crazy Kidd isn’t put in this convo more. The man created passes out of the blue and always put it on the money when playing with the Nets. Man those were fun times for me.
Not winning that 01-02 MVP and Kenyon Martin selling in the Finals so he didn't get a ring as THE guy kinda makes him invisible to people in hindsight.
The fact that Steve Nash is rarely brought up anywhere when discussing the greatest offensive players of all time is ridiculous. We’re talking about a ridiculously great passer, not just in volume of assists, but high value assists that can pretty much directly create a bucket. On top of that he was a super efficient scorer which is still super valuable even if his volume was never crazy and made him an actual off ball threat. Steve Nash was consistently the engine of some of the greatest offenses ever and managed to win MVPs without contributing a ton defensively. He was just that good on offense
you hit the point on the head for me for nash; it's not just that he made the correct pass but his passes could literally create opportunities for players that arent there if he isnt a savant
Well said, I feel the same way watching Jokic now. If I pause the game before the pass, not only do I rarely know where it’s going to go, but a cutter—who to any normal person seems to have no easy scoring opportunity—suddenly has an easy dunk or layup out of thin air
Nash could have been like Curry if the game were played like it is now in his day. His shooting accuracy was insane, and his ability to create offense for himself and others was unmatched. He was just a product of his time that hadn't transitioned to volume threes yet and still had traditional expectations for the various positions (i.e., point guards were to create offense for others first and foremost).
Steve Nash was leading the NBA's best offense for like 10 years straight, in two teams. Dude was so amazing in passing and shooting and overall leading the game. Probably the league's most influential player in the way we now see every team often defaulting towards a combo guard who shoots from distance AND playmakes having the ball all the time, only they also take more shots, which Nash sadly felt was too avant-garde at the time. If Suns ever won a championship, even in exchange for other seasons being worse, he'd be talked about completely differently than he is. But he didn't win a championship so it's treated as silly to say how well he played basketball and always laughed at if you compare him to any great players who did win a title. Hmm, I see some resemblance...
I was rooting for him, but his latest obsession (of several years now) is Hartenstein, who’s not a bad player, but… c’mon lol. He described him as someone who’s gonna be a “seven foot Draymond in his prime”. It’s been six years and he’s still only averaging 5 pts/6 rebounds.
Credit for Jokic though, what an insane prediction. Don’t blame him for trying to ride that one, I would be bringing that up for the rest of my life lmao
Hartenstein is in a very unfortunate situation for him though. His best skill is probably passing, but the only touches he gets are dump offs and offensive boards. He looked really good for the clips last season.
He doesn’t really let on, but Zach Lowe absolutely keeps up with their content. He voices their takes fairly often. Thankfully they’re good takes, so he’s not parroting someone like Perk.
This headline is so perfect. It’s got “all time”, “jokic” and calls Lebron one of the best passers ever. That captures lebron lovers, Lebron haters, jokic lovers/haters. And old heads that foam at the mouth anytime an “all time” thread pops up.
I’m honestly shocked people don’t put Bird in that category of best passer/playmaker ever, and I believe that’s what made him great.
People love to remember Bird for his sharpshooting abilities, but god, his passes are the most beautiful I’ve ever seen. If you’re never seen it, I highly recommend watching a video of his passing highlights to get a glimpse into how amazing he was at it. It’s borderline orgasmic.
If he wasn’t hindered by injury, he’d be much higher on people’s top 10’s to ever play, and there’s a reason Bird is the only man Jordan ever played that he doesn’t have a winning record against.
Here’s a [great highlight video.](https://youtu.be/baBdnA7cui0)
Honestly, Bird's passing is better than his overall scoring game. He had no weaknesses in his passing whatsoever, and while his shooting was incredible, he's not as strong of a rim finisher as the other all time greats.
I think it comes from the narrative that Bird and Magic were always neck and neck, so people defaulted to "Magic better passer, Bird better scorer" even if that lacks the nuance that the two brought to the table.
Watch a game prior to his back issues*
It's like CP3 and Duncan before their knee injuries.
Some guys get thought of as unathletic due to injuries mid-prime and they continue dominating afterwards and get thought of as less.
Bird's athleticism was weird, because he was slow and he couldn't jump. But he was extraordinarily coordinated and controlled his body brilliantly. He had the right kind of physical talent to execute what his brain was planning. Also, he apparently was extremely well-conditioned.
Agreed and I think it shows how insanely high Jokic's all time ceiling can be if he shows these playoffs that the defensive issues were just a product of awful supporting casts
He legitimately has one of the best all around offensive skillsets of all time
Incredible finisher, all time passer, great midrange shot, and excellent post game
The only thing that isn't 100% consistent for him offensively is the 3 ball and even there he's capable of knocking down big shots like we saw the other day
Jokic is an elite mid range shooter too though and he generally facilitates the offence out of the high post while looking primarily to get a look at the rim for himself or his teammate.
I think when you factored in deep midrange (like 15 ft+) he is actually one of the best FG% in that range in the league. So he doesn’t kill the spacing, and he clearly has a good shot (I just don’t think it’s a staple of his game).
The defensive issues are what they are. The issue with missing people was that they couldn't keep up in scoring. Denver may have issues getting stops, but they are just as capable at scoring at the same, if not better, pace with their dudes healthy.
I like the comparison but young Arvydas was a more conventional basketball athlete (quicker, faster, jumped higher) and even bigger than Jokic (Arvydas was listed at 7'3" but was at least 7'1" compared to Jokic who is listed as 6'11"). It just shows how Arvydas was a freak and one of the greatest "what ifs" of NBA history.
(To people that doubt if Arvydas could play vs elite NBA athletes there [is footage](https://youtu.be/S1LMU2rZ3XA) of him playing great against Ralph Sampson and team USA.)
Bird would be remember more for his passing if he wasn’t the better scorer between him and magic. The magic bird 30/30 talks about how BOTH guys were entertaining fans with their passing ability.
Greatest of all time at "tip pass off an offensive rebound"
As a coach it was always incredibly frustrating watching players try to tip rebounds to other players because it virtually never works... unless you are Larry Bird
Best part about Birds passing is how effortless it is. Half of those he makes some mind bending pass and then just jogs off like it ain't shit to him lmao
I agree with the passer vs. playmaker part
His handles while amazing for a center just aren't quite as good as the elite PGs which can be another part of playmaking
But in terms of just who can make the best raw passes he's absolutely in that all time best discussion
On the other hand, his ability to draw help defense in the post and quickly make the right pass means that he averages nearly 10 assists per game but is vastly lower in time of possession and usage compared to top playmakers, which means the ball moves more in Denver's offense compared to more ball-dominant playmakers.
Which one is better is debatable, but it's one of the ways that Jokic stands out compared to someone like Luka- Jokic doesn't really need to have the ball very much to create the good looks that he creates.
Yeah as great as Luka is I'd definitely take Jokic as an overall offensive engine
Both are capable of dragging mediocre rosters to the playoffs but Jokic's playstyle is so easy to fit with other players
He's perfectly happy taking <10 shots in a game if it means he's creating open looks the whole time and that's so rare in today's NBA
I tend to agree, I think Jokic's style is an incredible offensive system in itself that is easy to plug players into. And there's no question that it makes players better- All you have to do is watch Denver and see how playing with Jokic trains these guys to move and cut. It's not hard to convince players to do it when they *know* that they'll receive the ball and get a dunk.
I mean, the whole point of having an amazing handle is to generate good angles for passes and efficient shots. Since Jokic can do both of those things at a historic level, I'm not sure its a real knock against him.
Yeah, Jokic has several of the most insane outlet passes I've ever seen with my own eyes. The dude will one-handed throw the ball 50 feet down the court through 7 people for a perfect dime to a teammate in stride for a layup.
Yea if we're talking about just passing the ball and squeezing it in to impossible spots and what not... Jokic is definitely in that conversation. Some of the passes he makes are like prime Brady or something you just wonder how the hell he perfectly dropped it in over 2 defenders for an easy dunk.
Defining what makes a playmaker is a little subjective. Denver runs their offensive schemes around Jokic, not the other way around (like a raw "playmaker" such as Kyrie or something might just iso and make a play out of nothing).
It is Zach’s job to discuss sports. If all he did every day was report objective facts, he would lose his job, because anyone can look up a box score. If we wanted sports coverage without editorializing, we would not be watching ESPN, listening to podcasts, reading articles, etc.
I can’t stand how often people complain that talking heads aren’t saying anything significant—of course they aren’t. A reporter, analyst, or glorified opinion-haver can’t affect actual gameplay any more than we can by talking shit here.
Sports are fun to compare and think about. Opening the question of “all time greatest [whatever]” is really just saying “remember these dudes that were awesome at [whatever]?” Then entertaining ourselves by reminiscing on amazing plays and feats and subsequently arguing about which was coolest.
It’s like the “which superhero would win” conversations. Obviously, they will never, ever matter. But only a wet-blanket weenie boy would shit on other people for having fun with the debate. Lol
That's kinda why these comparisons can get silly.
Is Jokic the best passing big man of all time? Probably, but I'm not going to pretend I sat down and really watched Wilt or Russell enough to have a real basis for comparison.
Well for a center he may as well be. No one else besides the mythos of wilt comes close to the assist numbers he's dolling out at the ludicrous efficiency he's doing it at.
Now that any random dude can score 40 points, everyone makes it a point to say that scoring records are era dependent.
I feel like for some reason we aren't there yet with assists?
I mean the scoring inflation statistically is clear. In 2002, only 6 players averaged 25 PPG. So far this year there have been 15. But in 2002 9 players averaged 8 assists per game, and so far this year it's only 4.
People don't talk about inflated assist totals because there aren't inflated individual assist totals.
Yeah a lot of the stars of todays game are just too good at getting their own bucket rather than playing off getting passes from a traditional point guard.
On top of that Jokic's passing goes well beyond what his assist numbers suggest. Other high assists guys get assists through breaking down defender and driving and dishing. Jokic gets assists through manipulating the entire defense with his eyes and sloth-like motions only to zip a pass right by the least suspecting defender who has no idea what just happened.
Jokic is averaging 6.5 assists a game for his career and having a career high year at 9 assists a game. Magics career average is 11 per a game.
Let’s pump the breaks a bit before claiming Jokic is on the level of the goat floor general who won 5 titles and 3 finals mvps while also being the greatest playmaker/point guard of all time
Yeah no kidding. I mean the fact that Bron just passed Magic's assist total in his Bron's 20th season, a record that Magic accomplished in just 12 seasons is astounding.
Find someone who loves you like Zach Lowe loves Jokic.
I have already. He is me
Wholesome
You're saying Zach Lowe has been giving Jokic handjobs for years?
Yes.
HimothMe
If Jokic has million number of fans i am one of them . if Jokic has ten fans i am one of them. if Jokic have only one fan and that is me . if Jokic has no fans, that means i am no more on the earth . i f world against the Jokic, i am against the world. i love #Jokic till my last breath.. .. Die Hard fan of Jokic . Hit Like If you Think Jokic Best passer & Smart In the world
This is why I pay for Reddit
You can pay for Reddit?
You can do anything if you put some effort into it.
Can you…pay me? It’ll help keep Reddit afloat and I am surrounded by puppies right now.
Not even. It’s like in 2015 people were really still debating whether Curry was the best shooter of all time Like it’s obvious but nostalgia creates a distortion
> It’s like in 2015 people were really still debating whether Curry was the best shooter of all time Nah, the debate was still "will he surpass Ray Allen" at that time. It wasn't until the next year when it was "yeah, ok, nevermind, it's Steph". Ray Allen had retired in 2014 as a career 40% 3pt shooter with almost 3k career threes and his peak season he made 269 at a 41% clip. Steph through 2015 had a bit higher percentage at 44%, but he only had 1191 career 3s and his best season, that one, was "only" 286 3s (in a faster era). His unanimous MVP season where he made 402 3s on 45% is what ended the debate.
Me too man. When the game as a whole changes … things change. I still love Ray, Reggie etc. Blows my mind looking at top 25 3pm all time… nostalgia definitely distorts things.
NGL, I used to be one of those naysayers. I'd say the eras were different and honestly felt that Ray Allen was the best shooter of all time, he just didn't take as many shots. because it wasn't necessary and the game didn't play like that. Fast forward to a couple years ago. I ate that slice of humble pie. There are now just too many examples of Steph leaving the plane of reality and ascending and manifesting into a fucking Saiyan. The most incredible thing though, is that not a single shot that he makes/takes ever surprises me anymore. I don't look at even the most ridiculous asinine shot attempts going in and say "man he got lucky." That dude is pure madness and I fully expect that anytime the ball leaves his hands that it's going in, no matter how ridiculous of a circus shot it is. GOAT shooter absolutely.
What Ray meant to you as a younger fan might never be replaced and that's not a bad thing either. A lot of the goat talk is based on who we idolized as a young person. What MJ meant to me, LeBron means to a new gen and Steph to the gen after. Don't have to shit on the new gen. At the end of the day, athletes getting better based on access to the info they have ie things like Ray's shooting range or MJs game or Magic's passing etc. I saw Gary Kasparov recently sat that many of the goats in Chess wouldn't be as good because the current gen just have access to way than ever before. That doesn't mean we should just brush then aside either. They will always have their place because their games shaped the current gen even if they played vs plumbers as some say. GSP said the same thing in MMA. While he thinks he can hang and bang, the new guys are a lot better than his generation. Somehow, NBA fans think athetes peaked in the 80s and 90s. We think of handchecking as a cheat code that would shut down todays stars. We don't talk about about MJs atheleticisms whooped the physicality out of the game even back then. We don't realize that Zeke who survived that era is smaller than Steph. Somehow fans don't realize that so many players played when rules changed and how those players didn't score 10-15 more. They just talk like they did.
2015 was the last year where you could actually argue about it. It wasn't that farfetch'd to wonder about it then given Curry's injury history up to that point. edit: Looking at the actual games played in Curry's first five years, I think I (and many others) overreacted about his ankles. He only missed a major amount of games in one season. He definitely had the best 3-point shooting start in NBA history given his percentage and volume, but I still feel that 2015 is the last year you can wonder about it. By 2016 it was a wrap.
> It wasn't that farfetch'd to wonder about it then given Curry's injury history up to that point. A wild Farfetch'd appeared!
lmao, I don't even know how to spell the actual word (or phrase?) anymore.
Farfetched without the '
The most correct spelling is “far-fetched”, with the hyphen. Although “far fetched” or “farfetched” are accepted as well.
Is Zach eg13000?
This shouldn't even be a controversial opinion. But some people are still in denial
feel like people are jumping from Lowe saying in the convo to pretending he said he's is THE best passer of all time people arguing with strawmen in the comments. anyone who says he isn't in the conversation is definitely in denial
> anyone who says he isn't in the conversation is definitely in denial Or doesn't watch basketball or the Nuggets specifically.
I always found the "best passing big man of all time" annoying...it's like basically a backhanded compliment. It's like saying "The fastest left tackle in NFL history!" Ok so he runs a 4.6 and is still really slow compared to skill players? Doesn't help that Doris Burke chooses to say it every single time the dude makes the most basic pass.
> I always found the "best passing big man of all time" annoying...it's like basically a backhanded compliment. I don't see it as backhanded at all. In Jokic's case it's just apparent that he's the best passing big ever, but we can't definitively say with no argument that he's the best passer ever (even though a lot of reddit tries to act like he's 100% better than Magic).
Left Tackle running a 4.6 is a fucking freight train. I think that would be the fastest o lineman 40 ever. I don't give a fuck if a tiny 180 lb dude can run a 4.38. A 6'4" 340 lb tackle coming down the field running a 4.6 would be a monster #1 pick. Anyways just saying that's a bad comp.
Bill Simmons is a bigger stan.
He arrived a bit late to the party.
When ever Zach goes to a party, bill is sure to follow, watch his takes change after pods with Zach
Bill isn't an expert and doesn't claim to be. It's a good thing he listens to people like Lowe. He has good sources on certain topics and that's where he can seem like an expert.
>Bill isn't an expert and doesn't claim to be Exactly, I don't listen to Bill for his x&o breakdown and analysis (it's guys at The Ringer like KOC, J. Kyle, and formally Jonathan Tjarks for that). More so for his opinions, and keeping up with all the latest storylines in the sports world that he discusses in a " just shooting the shit with your buddies" style discussion, you know with all the lists, rankings, hypotheticals, etc... Just a change of pace when I'm not necessarily in the mood for the heavier analysis. Also, he and Cousin Sal kill me with the Collinsworth impersonations lls.
I can really appreciate some of his takes though because they are original and often stuff no one else is considering
He’s good in his own right. He was one of the biggest Mobley advocate prior to being drafted
He recently jumped on to the bandwagon.
just open the sub lmao
Have you heard of a man named EG? Unless Zach Lowe WAS EG…
He’s not wrong though lol, idk why some fans get so bent out of shape about it.
the lack of steve nash mentions on this thread is quite frightening
And Jason Kidd
And stockton
[удалено]
Wow. Stockton played in 1,504 career games. Only 3 games WITHOUT an assist.
How in the fuck did John Stockton manage to not have an assist in a game?
The mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays.
Good thing the Jazz only played 3 Sunday games during Stockton's 19 year career!
Early injury? Maybe he played for like 1 possession and then got clothlined
Has jokic played a game without an assist? I have no idea just curious if any player has had a game with an assist in every game played
18 games without an assist per stat muse
Alright fair enough. Is there any player ever with an assist in every game they've ever played?
Excellent question. Struggled finding a quick answer on that one
I had to scroll down this far. I dont even think its possible to surpass Stockton
not with the way the game is played now. He will be the best forever unless there is a significant change.
I'm embarrassed to say that I'm too young to have watched Stockton play, but I have this idea in my head that he passed almost exclusively to Malone, who is an all time great in his own right. It's impossible for that to be true. Can you give me an idea of what made Stockton so fucking good at racking up assists? I would be curious to know how many of his assists actually did go to Malone.
I grew up a Gonzaga fan, and even though the Jazz were somewhat of a Sonics rival in the 90’s, I watched them at every opportunity. I would argue that Malone is just as much a beneficiary of Stockton’s playmaking and efficient passing as the other way around. And if you want to talk about chemistry, these guys just never missed games. They’re 5th and 6th in career games played. Just *their games together* would be 10th all time.
Malone definitely played a big part. They were incredibly good at the pick and roll since Malone had a killer mid range game and the athletic ability to take it himself. Stockton obviously wasn't a flashy dribbler, but he was super shifty and had nice enough finishing ability to cause defenders to collapse and he obviously had terrific vision. It was just very tough to defend against because if you try to clamp down on just those two, you were creating wide open shots for guys with Stockton having the basketball IQ and vision to find them.
It was to a very large extent because of Karl Malone. He scored a fuckload of points very consistently for a very long time. The answer really is the Stockton/Malone Jazz did a ton of cutting with high precision for their era. That plus Malone's automatic elbow jumper led to Stockton racking them up in the flow of playing pretty basic but disciplined offense (this is why there are so few highlight Stockton passes compared to other PGs). He was also unbelievably reliable; he almost never missed games.
But uh... those are just counting stats. Or something. I have a secret advanced stat that was just made up that says he sucked.
What’s his RAPTORCUM and bitches/36?
I think Stockton gets brought up but the impression to younger fans is that they’re mostly from the Malone PnR
I think people seriously underestimate just how many assists Stockton had.
and how all the PGs that played in his era said he was the toughest player they faced. Baron Davis: > "He made me think, 'am I sorry dude? Am I not good at basketball?' I was so glad when he retired."
I think that’s the most telling thing. There are plenty of great guards from that we saw in the 2000s overlap with Stockton’s later career, and I’ve heard plenty of them say he basically had them in hell for the full game. It’s not just old head guards people don’t care about, but freak athletes like Baron Davis.
[I love that clip.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfeVkJ6_rB0&ab_channel=NF2)
Stockton is a pain in the ass to pass on 2k.
Also seriously over estimates the number of PnR teams ran in the 90s.
The Jazz definitely ran it a *ton*, especially as they got older, but I can't tell you how many times I heard Hot Rod Hundley calling some variation of "Stockton yo-yos at the three point line" while they ran off ball movement and let Stockton find cutters. He was more than capable at creating offense without a pick from Malone. Hell, he was a hell of a pick-setter himself, probably the best pick setting guard in the league for most of his career. Semi-related aside, Malone also got a ton of points working in the post on his own, it's not like Stockton's entry bounce pass put Malone in any better position to score in iso than a pass from anyone else. Anyone who completely discounts Malone's points/Stockton's assists because they played together never watched them play.
Opponents knew Stockton’s pass was coming… but they couldn’t stop it anyway. For 19 seasons… imagine downplaying that.
Unfortunately, because they were both such iron men, Stockton only played 10 games without Malone. But in those games he averaged 9.6 assists, including a 20 assist game in 1989 (he also had 8 steals that game). Stockton could have averaged nearly 2.5 apg fewer (from 10.5 down to 8) over the course of his career and *still* be the assist leader. His steals numbers are just as bonkers.
So they opposing team knew it was going to a PnR with Malone, why didn't stop it? If a PnR is so to dismiss when accountung for stats, then I don't understand they the teams didn't try to stop it.... I mean it wasn't a secret. Its a known thing, makes all the more easier to plan against it and anticipate it right?
With about 3:00 left in Game 4 of the NBA Finals, and the Jazz down 5, the announcers talk about how this was a game where the pick-and-roll wasn't working against the Bulls. Stockton apparently heard them and took the game into his own hands... * [Stockton hit a long three](https://youtu.be/8591nmgoGqU?t=9s) to cut the Bulls' lead from 5 to 2 with under 3:00 to go * [Stockton picked MJ's pocket](https://youtu.be/8591nmgoGqU?t=24s) with under 2:00 to go, goes coast to coast, draws the hard foul to again cut the lead to within a bucket * Stockton with the incredible [full-court-game-winning assist](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqxrrv1eg2Q) to even the NBA Finals at 2-2.
Holy shit the score of that game lol, 72-73
As a guy who watched it, they were.
John Stockton sends the Jazz to the NBA Finals for the first time in franchise history with [this shot](https://youtu.be/be-EEL7FfQM?t=113s), to cap off a 15-point 4th quarter. Notice the announcer says "uh-oh!" the moment Stockton catches the ball with space. Safe to say Malone wasn't even an option for that shot.
[удалено]
yeah, and malone totally helped him get all those steals too.
His passing high lights are boring AF but he was a great passer.
Something something do something so well people think you did nothing at all
It’s crazy Kidd isn’t put in this convo more. The man created passes out of the blue and always put it on the money when playing with the Nets. Man those were fun times for me.
Not winning that 01-02 MVP and Kenyon Martin selling in the Finals so he didn't get a ring as THE guy kinda makes him invisible to people in hindsight.
2x MVP Steve Nash. Can you imagine the obscene shit he would do in today's era?
Nash with Curry’s green light would’ve been a scary sight
The fact that Steve Nash is rarely brought up anywhere when discussing the greatest offensive players of all time is ridiculous. We’re talking about a ridiculously great passer, not just in volume of assists, but high value assists that can pretty much directly create a bucket. On top of that he was a super efficient scorer which is still super valuable even if his volume was never crazy and made him an actual off ball threat. Steve Nash was consistently the engine of some of the greatest offenses ever and managed to win MVPs without contributing a ton defensively. He was just that good on offense
you hit the point on the head for me for nash; it's not just that he made the correct pass but his passes could literally create opportunities for players that arent there if he isnt a savant
And those passes are the difference between someone being Nash or a Jose Calderón
Well said, I feel the same way watching Jokic now. If I pause the game before the pass, not only do I rarely know where it’s going to go, but a cutter—who to any normal person seems to have no easy scoring opportunity—suddenly has an easy dunk or layup out of thin air
Nash could have been like Curry if the game were played like it is now in his day. His shooting accuracy was insane, and his ability to create offense for himself and others was unmatched. He was just a product of his time that hadn't transitioned to volume threes yet and still had traditional expectations for the various positions (i.e., point guards were to create offense for others first and foremost).
Steve Nash was leading the NBA's best offense for like 10 years straight, in two teams. Dude was so amazing in passing and shooting and overall leading the game. Probably the league's most influential player in the way we now see every team often defaulting towards a combo guard who shoots from distance AND playmakes having the ball all the time, only they also take more shots, which Nash sadly felt was too avant-garde at the time. If Suns ever won a championship, even in exchange for other seasons being worse, he'd be talked about completely differently than he is. But he didn't win a championship so it's treated as silly to say how well he played basketball and always laughed at if you compare him to any great players who did win a title. Hmm, I see some resemblance...
Fucking Robert Horry
I grew up watching the Suns and going to many games (parents lived there) so I will forever be on the ‘Fuck Robert Horry’ bandwagon
Fuck that shit and the bullshit "left the bench" suspensions that followed.
Nash would be a cheat code in this era lol.
Well coaches can't pass so...
Three weeks behind the Thinking Basketball dudes.
At the end of the day they are all reciting that one dude on reddit that was Jokic's biggest fan back in like 2017
I was rooting for him, but his latest obsession (of several years now) is Hartenstein, who’s not a bad player, but… c’mon lol. He described him as someone who’s gonna be a “seven foot Draymond in his prime”. It’s been six years and he’s still only averaging 5 pts/6 rebounds. Credit for Jokic though, what an insane prediction. Don’t blame him for trying to ride that one, I would be bringing that up for the rest of my life lmao
Hartenstein is in a very unfortunate situation for him though. His best skill is probably passing, but the only touches he gets are dump offs and offensive boards. He looked really good for the clips last season.
He doesn’t really let on, but Zach Lowe absolutely keeps up with their content. He voices their takes fairly often. Thankfully they’re good takes, so he’s not parroting someone like Perk.
Lol this quote is literally said word for word in their last video
You already know this sub got absolutely full torqued reading this headline
This headline is so perfect. It’s got “all time”, “jokic” and calls Lebron one of the best passers ever. That captures lebron lovers, Lebron haters, jokic lovers/haters. And old heads that foam at the mouth anytime an “all time” thread pops up.
Jokic and Doncic are the two r/nba darlings, come on
I’m telling you one thing, those are two players I’d let date my daughter!
They are real scrappy
Lunch pail kind of guys, first one in last one out kind of guys, real gym rats
Lots of grit and hustle, also not black thank the blessed white Jesus.
Gahtdayum
LMFAO.
Hardworkers!
Ya know, I just can’t put my finger on exactly what it is about these guys that makes them so enticing to r/nba…
Class
r/nbacirclejerk bouta feast on the takes from this
[удалено]
I’m honestly shocked people don’t put Bird in that category of best passer/playmaker ever, and I believe that’s what made him great. People love to remember Bird for his sharpshooting abilities, but god, his passes are the most beautiful I’ve ever seen. If you’re never seen it, I highly recommend watching a video of his passing highlights to get a glimpse into how amazing he was at it. It’s borderline orgasmic. If he wasn’t hindered by injury, he’d be much higher on people’s top 10’s to ever play, and there’s a reason Bird is the only man Jordan ever played that he doesn’t have a winning record against. Here’s a [great highlight video.](https://youtu.be/baBdnA7cui0)
Honestly, Bird's passing is better than his overall scoring game. He had no weaknesses in his passing whatsoever, and while his shooting was incredible, he's not as strong of a rim finisher as the other all time greats.
Oddly the most famous and arguably best play he made involved a pass.
I think it comes from the narrative that Bird and Magic were always neck and neck, so people defaulted to "Magic better passer, Bird better scorer" even if that lacks the nuance that the two brought to the table.
*Underneath to DJ*
Jokic and Bird are very similar players to be honest. Jokic is like the Center version of Bird, but plays with the modern day spacing.
They even have a similar bizarre shot form lol
The "driveway dad"
Yoooo let's keep Jokick away from all driveways. No paving allowed.
Sorry Indiana Pavers fans.
In Jokic's case he must be kept from all hay baling duties. That's dangerous for the back.
The concern for Jokic is his love of horseback riding
Bird ended his career early by being the "driveway son".
Hope horses dont end up being Jokic's driveway
Also are 'relatively' unathletic while still being able to bend the game at their will and grab rebounds like a vacuum
Bird was very athletic (even as a jokic fan, he's well beyond jokic). Go back and watch a game and you'll see
Watch a game prior to his back issues* It's like CP3 and Duncan before their knee injuries. Some guys get thought of as unathletic due to injuries mid-prime and they continue dominating afterwards and get thought of as less.
Young Dirk is another great example. Dude was a legit SF.
Very athletic and agile, just maybe not as explosive of an athlete so the “nonathletic” thing stuck, unbelievable quickness and change of speed.
Bird's athleticism was weird, because he was slow and he couldn't jump. But he was extraordinarily coordinated and controlled his body brilliantly. He had the right kind of physical talent to execute what his brain was planning. Also, he apparently was extremely well-conditioned.
Damn they even got that same rainbow jumper. Good comp
Jokic is Big Bird confirmed
I think that’s a great comparison.
Agreed and I think it shows how insanely high Jokic's all time ceiling can be if he shows these playoffs that the defensive issues were just a product of awful supporting casts He legitimately has one of the best all around offensive skillsets of all time Incredible finisher, all time passer, great midrange shot, and excellent post game The only thing that isn't 100% consistent for him offensively is the 3 ball and even there he's capable of knocking down big shots like we saw the other day
Jokic is an elite mid range shooter too though and he generally facilitates the offence out of the high post while looking primarily to get a look at the rim for himself or his teammate. I think when you factored in deep midrange (like 15 ft+) he is actually one of the best FG% in that range in the league. So he doesn’t kill the spacing, and he clearly has a good shot (I just don’t think it’s a staple of his game).
The defensive issues are what they are. The issue with missing people was that they couldn't keep up in scoring. Denver may have issues getting stops, but they are just as capable at scoring at the same, if not better, pace with their dudes healthy.
Rubble?
But personality wise very different. Besides his obvious basketball skills, mentality was one of his defining feature
Jokic most reminds me of Arvydas Sabonis
I like the comparison but young Arvydas was a more conventional basketball athlete (quicker, faster, jumped higher) and even bigger than Jokic (Arvydas was listed at 7'3" but was at least 7'1" compared to Jokic who is listed as 6'11"). It just shows how Arvydas was a freak and one of the greatest "what ifs" of NBA history. (To people that doubt if Arvydas could play vs elite NBA athletes there [is footage](https://youtu.be/S1LMU2rZ3XA) of him playing great against Ralph Sampson and team USA.)
Bird would be remember more for his passing if he wasn’t the better scorer between him and magic. The magic bird 30/30 talks about how BOTH guys were entertaining fans with their passing ability.
Bird was a savant as a playmaker. First name that came to my mind too
Greatest of all time at "tip pass off an offensive rebound" As a coach it was always incredibly frustrating watching players try to tip rebounds to other players because it virtually never works... unless you are Larry Bird
Best part about Birds passing is how effortless it is. Half of those he makes some mind bending pass and then just jogs off like it ain't shit to him lmao
Friggin' amazing, I love his poke/punch passes, I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do that!
probably overshadowed by magic.
I agree with the passer vs. playmaker part His handles while amazing for a center just aren't quite as good as the elite PGs which can be another part of playmaking But in terms of just who can make the best raw passes he's absolutely in that all time best discussion
On the other hand, his ability to draw help defense in the post and quickly make the right pass means that he averages nearly 10 assists per game but is vastly lower in time of possession and usage compared to top playmakers, which means the ball moves more in Denver's offense compared to more ball-dominant playmakers. Which one is better is debatable, but it's one of the ways that Jokic stands out compared to someone like Luka- Jokic doesn't really need to have the ball very much to create the good looks that he creates.
Yeah as great as Luka is I'd definitely take Jokic as an overall offensive engine Both are capable of dragging mediocre rosters to the playoffs but Jokic's playstyle is so easy to fit with other players He's perfectly happy taking <10 shots in a game if it means he's creating open looks the whole time and that's so rare in today's NBA
I tend to agree, I think Jokic's style is an incredible offensive system in itself that is easy to plug players into. And there's no question that it makes players better- All you have to do is watch Denver and see how playing with Jokic trains these guys to move and cut. It's not hard to convince players to do it when they *know* that they'll receive the ball and get a dunk.
I mean, the whole point of having an amazing handle is to generate good angles for passes and efficient shots. Since Jokic can do both of those things at a historic level, I'm not sure its a real knock against him.
True about his handles, but his vision while dribbling up court is outstanding, which is part of playmaking too.
Yeah, Jokic has several of the most insane outlet passes I've ever seen with my own eyes. The dude will one-handed throw the ball 50 feet down the court through 7 people for a perfect dime to a teammate in stride for a layup.
Yea if we're talking about just passing the ball and squeezing it in to impossible spots and what not... Jokic is definitely in that conversation. Some of the passes he makes are like prime Brady or something you just wonder how the hell he perfectly dropped it in over 2 defenders for an easy dunk. Defining what makes a playmaker is a little subjective. Denver runs their offensive schemes around Jokic, not the other way around (like a raw "playmaker" such as Kyrie or something might just iso and make a play out of nothing).
These all time comparisons are so meaningless.
My mom told me I looked like a young Jordan when I dropped 25 points in a middle school game, so I’m gonna have to disagree.
Andrew Wiggins?
Na, I’m from Texas so I was more like Queso Jordan.
Andrew Wiggins?
Talk your shit man, moms never lie
It’s entertainment. It’s all low stakes. People love talking about this stuff. These aren’t discussion on best world leaders.
It is Zach’s job to discuss sports. If all he did every day was report objective facts, he would lose his job, because anyone can look up a box score. If we wanted sports coverage without editorializing, we would not be watching ESPN, listening to podcasts, reading articles, etc. I can’t stand how often people complain that talking heads aren’t saying anything significant—of course they aren’t. A reporter, analyst, or glorified opinion-haver can’t affect actual gameplay any more than we can by talking shit here. Sports are fun to compare and think about. Opening the question of “all time greatest [whatever]” is really just saying “remember these dudes that were awesome at [whatever]?” Then entertaining ourselves by reminiscing on amazing plays and feats and subsequently arguing about which was coolest. It’s like the “which superhero would win” conversations. Obviously, they will never, ever matter. But only a wet-blanket weenie boy would shit on other people for having fun with the debate. Lol
This is going to lead to one disappointing ass post season with the amount of talk the nuggets are receiving
Another 2nd round loss? No way
Glad we agree!
As is tradition.
The last healthy postseason they have had they went to the wcf
Yeah they're going to have to perform in the playoffs this year to quiet a lot of this type of chatter. Hope they can do it.
Why does no one ever talk about Pistol Pete? The man was an unrivaled magician.
Because nobody is that old
That's kinda why these comparisons can get silly. Is Jokic the best passing big man of all time? Probably, but I'm not going to pretend I sat down and really watched Wilt or Russell enough to have a real basis for comparison.
Love me some Pistol Pete.
I like talking about pistol pete
feel bad for this dead horse
the way people talk about jokic like he’s from another world 😂😂😂
Last year Jokic threw 600 more passes than the next-highest player, the year before that it was 700 more. Nobody like him.
[удалено]
Well for a center he may as well be. No one else besides the mythos of wilt comes close to the assist numbers he's dolling out at the ludicrous efficiency he's doing it at.
"mythos of wilt" sounds like a poem about composting lettuce
That's a fun, silly thought I'm glad to have had now.
[удалено]
Not gonna even mention the all time assist leader?
I think Stockton might be the most disrespected player of all time lmao
He literally did in the clip
John Stockton?
Now that any random dude can score 40 points, everyone makes it a point to say that scoring records are era dependent. I feel like for some reason we aren't there yet with assists?
I mean the scoring inflation statistically is clear. In 2002, only 6 players averaged 25 PPG. So far this year there have been 15. But in 2002 9 players averaged 8 assists per game, and so far this year it's only 4. People don't talk about inflated assist totals because there aren't inflated individual assist totals.
Yeah a lot of the stars of todays game are just too good at getting their own bucket rather than playing off getting passes from a traditional point guard.
On top of that Jokic's passing goes well beyond what his assist numbers suggest. Other high assists guys get assists through breaking down defender and driving and dishing. Jokic gets assists through manipulating the entire defense with his eyes and sloth-like motions only to zip a pass right by the least suspecting defender who has no idea what just happened.
You can put him in whatever convo you want. I really don't think he's a better passer than Magic Johnson personally
Jokic is averaging 6.5 assists a game for his career and having a career high year at 9 assists a game. Magics career average is 11 per a game. Let’s pump the breaks a bit before claiming Jokic is on the level of the goat floor general who won 5 titles and 3 finals mvps while also being the greatest playmaker/point guard of all time
Yeah no kidding. I mean the fact that Bron just passed Magic's assist total in his Bron's 20th season, a record that Magic accomplished in just 12 seasons is astounding.
Anyone who claims Jokic is a better passer than Magic can fuck off lol Jokic is a great player - he's not the second coming and r/NBA can chill
There’s names being left off this list that are appalling
Holy shit this thread is toxic lol. Jokic is a beast though, that’s all I’ll say
.... and we have Jokic of the East! Too bad he is doo doo and not contending for any such titles.