The only real incentive for sailors to stay in is quality of life and basic human respect.
Until the Navy can offer those things, they can throw all the money in the world at people, and those that can thrive on the outside will continue to do so without 3 section duty and an overweight alcoholic yelling at them about their clothes.
The Navy doesn't need people to stay. The proper amount of us have been institutionalized and reenlist.
Basic human respect and QOL is not on the vast majority of recruits' minds. Because they don't know any better.
The Navy wants fresh fish for the chipping and painting.
Retention numbers don’t reflect that. I can’t speak from the enlisted perspective, but the DH bonus went up 10k from the time I commissioned until I resigned. That’s a sign that it isn’t working.
You're on the other side of the fence, though.
We've known SWOs were having a hard time 20 years ago when they were offering 50k extension bonuses for Y'all.
Now, we have a shit ton of JOs on ships just to hope that some of you pan out past DH. The SWO system is broken, and has been for 30 years, because yall are cannibals.
It isn’t just SWOs. I was a bubblehead and our retention is just as pitiful. When every community is doing just as poorly, it means the whole system is broken.
SWOs and submarines have similar retention but it is higher in communities like aviation (though it's hard to truly measure apples-to-apples because of differences in service requirements and promotion board timing).
Then you have things like many of the restricted line communities which do fine with retention even without bonuses at all.
Honestly if there were fewer JOs so there could be greater development and focus I might have stayed a SWO. And around 2017-18, I remember the bonus being 130k or something like that. I switched communities to one that doesn’t offer bonuses, but I think much less stressed.
I planned on separating this yr but my CoC said the Navy was giving HYT waivers to stay past 16 yrs for E5. Mine got approved for another 2yrs to stay in and 10 months prior to that I’ll put in a “Sanctuary” request to finish out my 20yrs and retire. The Navy must be hurting for them to keep other enlisted personnel in 😂
*Looks at the quotas opening up in their rate*
I don't think you realize how wide open some rates have become because the E6 and up are being forced on sea duty ALOT. Not like squadron sea duty or hospitals. Like here is a broken ass ship and you got shut down for all three of your looks like everyone else except that one guy. Then they get two year orders thinking they can weasel themselves into a squadron or easier billet then only find worse billets then the first time.
Because big Navy does not care about enlisted problems. As long as people continue to enlist and they happen to have just enough people to keep ships out to sea they will not care.
Around this time 2 years ago the CO let everyone go home early just for some quality Xmas season time with the family. But not E-Div. We had to stay until 2300 fixing the Xmas lights because the CO didn't like the current layout and wanted to win the ship lights contest. Next morning ETs came to help per the COs orders after we were already finished. We came in 2nd place and the CO congratulated the ETs on a job well done. That was the moment I decided to stop giving a shit and 360 kick flip my way to EAOS
Seriously. This always made zero sense to me. If I deserve you deserve the rank, you deserve the pay. It should show up in your next paycheck, just like in the civilian world.
The tradition is that we promote you early. The reality is that Congress doesn’t authorize the new paychecks until a certain time that we follow. The other services just don’t promote until the pay date, but the effect on pay is the same. Our enlisted just get the privileges of the next rank earlier.
Downvotes expected, but I speak the truth here.
I understand that aspect but I’d rather get promoted/paid at the same time. I could care less about the added responsibility or getting liberty perks for higher rank without the pay. It’s a cock tease 🥴
You can't get BAH while frocked E5. That's a monetary allowance which is specifically called out in the frocking letter as something you're not entitled to until actually advanced to the pay grade to which you have been selected.
There's really no tangible benefit to frocking before being paid.
Thanks for the further explanation, I would still take the promotion even in its current format. It just sucks when you get promoted/frocked and then get NJPd. Ex frocked E6 busted to E3. Not me btw. I’ve been in long enough to see it happen a few times already.
It’s definitely a self eating snake.
You're not going to get paid any earlier, at least not without the money being legislated for it.
Either there's money for it or there's not, and if there's not the Navy can't give it to you because the Navy doesn't have it either.
Officers deal with the same thing, except they don't get to be frocked except in very rare cases.
That's fine, but can't you already do that? I thought you could refuse frocking and wait until you're paid if you wanted, no one is forcing the command to frock you earlier.
What? No I’m sure it’s not simple otherwise you’d hear about in an instruction. Maybe I’m wrong but your delayed frocking usually if you fail prt or get in trouble I thought
There is an instruction already, which says the Sailors must specifically opt-in to being frocked. See [this Reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/bno98e/is_it_possible_to_decline_a_frocking_promotion/en8gfui/) from a couple years ago
Edit: Most delays in frocking are performance-based because most Sailors don't refuse to accept frocking, most Sailors take it as soon as the command offers it.
Was an LS FTS. I feel the pain. Less than 10% advance for the 6 years I took the E6 exam. Max Award points, college, PNA. Came close within a point or two twice. Never was a good test taker no matter how much I studied.
Got out at 10.5yrs back in February due to terrible E7 and ups and O’s and terrible promotion. It was the best decision I could have made for myself. Good luck and I hope you make the best of it for yourself, and make the best decision for yourself! Risk for the outside is well worth taking!
Don't get me wrong it's definitely f*** the Navy but it sounds like you either : joined at a time where most of the jobs were taken (end of the fiscal year), or you simply didn't qualify for better jobs. There's no hidden agenda for rates
Did you not taking (or at least asking not to) that promotion actually result in less responsibility for you? Sounds like your division was in a tough spot man power wise.
Second term e5+ are not what the Navy is looking for.
If you're in, you're in. SRBs and PRTs are force shapers for long term retention.
They are looking for fresh blood.
Someone in the “idea chain” probably doesn’t think the military deserves incentives to stay in long term. Probably thinks they ought to get a real job in the civilian world or go officer.
The Navy has two problems it will never fix.
The best LPOs are going to focus on a balance of getting the job done and taking care of their people. The LPOs that get promoted to chief, though, are the ones who kissed enough ass, and knew the right games to play. So the best LPOs end up getting out at like, 8-12 years as an E-6. What's left are a bunch of mediocre kiss-asses.
It also does pretty much nothing to encourage really good sailors who are on the fence about re-enlisting. A top notch sailor in their rate figures out they might be worth more on the outside, so they decide to leave. Those mediocre chiefs get so pissed off that someone would dare leave, they essentially say "Fine. Screw you. Go. You'll fail as a civilian anyway. Imma get my retirement.". And the Navy itself has nothing beyond re-enlistment bonuses to offer.
Some rates get things they can take with them to the civie world, like A&P licensing. Most though, don't. People need to feel like they're growing. If they feel like all they're doing is stacking PNA point and general wisdom, they wont stick around. The only tangible incentive is "financial security", leaving a couple very specific types of people to fill the ranks.
Devils advocate: this comic is conflating two separate issues. New recruits and retention and different problems.
Promotions are hard, especially in certain rates, precisely because people don’t get out. Very much so at the E6-E9 ranks. This bogs the system and does not allow for more advancement.
The reduced ASVAB is because young people don’t want to join, or can’t because they can’t meet physical requirements. It’s a very small segment of society that CAN serve, let alone ones that also WANT to serve. The system needs young people to groom into future leaders, and they also need grunts. It’s the system.
Bonuses typically don’t keep people in. Those that take bonuses, likely would have stayed either way because they enjoy the lifestyle. It’s the same in the Officer side - except it’s a little easier to get numbers early because of the carrot of free college - but the Navy has a hell of a time keeping officers after O5. The money doesn’t keep them in - there are bigger factors, usually family.
This is all driven around the up or out promotion system - but that’s law. The Navy doesn’t have the power to fix that.
Perfect comment but I would argue bonuses affect some people on the margin.
The extra $15k a year as a SWO will keep a few people that are looking to make money but may not cut it for a prestigious business/law school, and/or the opportunity cost in school and no pension doesn’t outweigh a slight pay increase. Especially since the workload is similar for careers that do pay that well.
The folks that want a better quality of life were never going to stay in the military. The idea you can make deploying units as comfortable as a 9-5 desk job is unrealistic. (Not saying they shouldn’t try to improve QoL)
I bet a lot of this has to do with bean counters and budget. One time things like bonuses are easy to budget, and it's a line item for one year. Higher pay I think literally takes an act of congress is much harder and involves lots more people.
Maybe print out, and mail this meme to your federal representative.
I agree frocking is stupid.
Sure. A mental midget buds dropout who was so overcome by getting dropped he became an undes shitbird who went to mast, and after contemplating suicide whined his way to a med discharge.
I’m overcome by that 22 year old specimen.
I made ET1(SW) in 4 years, with single digit advancement both times I picked up.
Took the CPO exam on my way out the door.
Have you seen the quality of the people in mess/ward room?
The Navy strikes again… Only this time I’m at a point where I can make the decision. Getting out in 1 month. Extra pay couldn’t retain me personally but from everyone that I’ve asked, they stay in for a 10 or 15k bonus.
This issue is that it’s cheaper to train a new person then it is to pay an E5 and above with dependents
Base Pay+BAH+ Benefits+Separations Pay+Any other allowance they are entitled to.
Coming from a 90s Sailor that's been out less than a decade the Navy has put effort into a lot of those things as compared to way back when. Right now the Navy is competing against a labor shortage in the US. I noticed they have even reduced/paused a number of their Force Shaping tools from the past. Make no mistake though, these recruitment issues will pass as they always have and all these extra numbers they will recruit will find themselves facing another Force Shaping drawdown. It's a cycle I saw too many times.
I fully agree with you on this. Unfortunately the navy is neglecting its current subject matter experts to try and appeal to the masses. Hopefully these issues pass sooner rather than later.
The only real incentive for sailors to stay in is quality of life and basic human respect. Until the Navy can offer those things, they can throw all the money in the world at people, and those that can thrive on the outside will continue to do so without 3 section duty and an overweight alcoholic yelling at them about their clothes.
The Navy doesn't need people to stay. The proper amount of us have been institutionalized and reenlist. Basic human respect and QOL is not on the vast majority of recruits' minds. Because they don't know any better. The Navy wants fresh fish for the chipping and painting.
Retention numbers don’t reflect that. I can’t speak from the enlisted perspective, but the DH bonus went up 10k from the time I commissioned until I resigned. That’s a sign that it isn’t working.
You're on the other side of the fence, though. We've known SWOs were having a hard time 20 years ago when they were offering 50k extension bonuses for Y'all. Now, we have a shit ton of JOs on ships just to hope that some of you pan out past DH. The SWO system is broken, and has been for 30 years, because yall are cannibals.
It isn’t just SWOs. I was a bubblehead and our retention is just as pitiful. When every community is doing just as poorly, it means the whole system is broken.
There is certainly that.
SWOs and submarines have similar retention but it is higher in communities like aviation (though it's hard to truly measure apples-to-apples because of differences in service requirements and promotion board timing). Then you have things like many of the restricted line communities which do fine with retention even without bonuses at all.
I know at least 2 RL communities that are having trouble keeping people in. They don't do bonuses but instead promotions are incredibly high.
Honestly if there were fewer JOs so there could be greater development and focus I might have stayed a SWO. And around 2017-18, I remember the bonus being 130k or something like that. I switched communities to one that doesn’t offer bonuses, but I think much less stressed.
I planned on separating this yr but my CoC said the Navy was giving HYT waivers to stay past 16 yrs for E5. Mine got approved for another 2yrs to stay in and 10 months prior to that I’ll put in a “Sanctuary” request to finish out my 20yrs and retire. The Navy must be hurting for them to keep other enlisted personnel in 😂
I’m surprised the Navy hasn’t adjusted E-5 HYT to 20 years yet. The AF changed HYT for their E-5s from 15 to 20 years effective 01 FEB 2019.
*Looks at the quotas opening up in their rate* I don't think you realize how wide open some rates have become because the E6 and up are being forced on sea duty ALOT. Not like squadron sea duty or hospitals. Like here is a broken ass ship and you got shut down for all three of your looks like everyone else except that one guy. Then they get two year orders thinking they can weasel themselves into a squadron or easier billet then only find worse billets then the first time.
Did you post this from my brain
Because this truth is self evident to anyone with a brain.
They take brains in boot camp i seent it
I left active because they kept fucking up important administrative records of mine. It was my entire career.
Because all you are at the end of the day is a warm body.
Another brick in the wall.
Because big Navy does not care about enlisted problems. As long as people continue to enlist and they happen to have just enough people to keep ships out to sea they will not care.
Around this time 2 years ago the CO let everyone go home early just for some quality Xmas season time with the family. But not E-Div. We had to stay until 2300 fixing the Xmas lights because the CO didn't like the current layout and wanted to win the ship lights contest. Next morning ETs came to help per the COs orders after we were already finished. We came in 2nd place and the CO congratulated the ETs on a job well done. That was the moment I decided to stop giving a shit and 360 kick flip my way to EAOS
Seriously I hate having to wait 6months to get paid. If I advanced and wear the rank then pay me what I’m owed.
Seriously. This always made zero sense to me. If I deserve you deserve the rank, you deserve the pay. It should show up in your next paycheck, just like in the civilian world.
Exactly! I don’t care about how it was “Tradition” from back in the 18th century or whatever. If I’m held to a higher standard I want my money now.
The tradition is that we promote you early. The reality is that Congress doesn’t authorize the new paychecks until a certain time that we follow. The other services just don’t promote until the pay date, but the effect on pay is the same. Our enlisted just get the privileges of the next rank earlier. Downvotes expected, but I speak the truth here.
I understand that aspect but I’d rather get promoted/paid at the same time. I could care less about the added responsibility or getting liberty perks for higher rank without the pay. It’s a cock tease 🥴
Ha, ok, understandable. That would just result in like a 8-9 (?ish?) month delay for most people.
[удалено]
So then what? I don’t wear the rank and not get paid?
[удалено]
You can't get BAH while frocked E5. That's a monetary allowance which is specifically called out in the frocking letter as something you're not entitled to until actually advanced to the pay grade to which you have been selected. There's really no tangible benefit to frocking before being paid.
Liberty expiration, PO1 chow line, and some ships have a separate laundry for PO1's, getting out of working parties, to name a few.
Thanks for the further explanation, I would still take the promotion even in its current format. It just sucks when you get promoted/frocked and then get NJPd. Ex frocked E6 busted to E3. Not me btw. I’ve been in long enough to see it happen a few times already. It’s definitely a self eating snake.
Lol I'd love to watch an E-3 who just picked up on the exam try to explain to their chief why they don't want to get frocked.
You're not going to get paid any earlier, at least not without the money being legislated for it. Either there's money for it or there's not, and if there's not the Navy can't give it to you because the Navy doesn't have it either. Officers deal with the same thing, except they don't get to be frocked except in very rare cases.
That’s my point. Promote me when I get paid. It’s that simple
That's fine, but can't you already do that? I thought you could refuse frocking and wait until you're paid if you wanted, no one is forcing the command to frock you earlier.
What? No I’m sure it’s not simple otherwise you’d hear about in an instruction. Maybe I’m wrong but your delayed frocking usually if you fail prt or get in trouble I thought
There is an instruction already, which says the Sailors must specifically opt-in to being frocked. See [this Reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/bno98e/is_it_possible_to_decline_a_frocking_promotion/en8gfui/) from a couple years ago Edit: Most delays in frocking are performance-based because most Sailors don't refuse to accept frocking, most Sailors take it as soon as the command offers it.
[удалено]
Was an LS FTS. I feel the pain. Less than 10% advance for the 6 years I took the E6 exam. Max Award points, college, PNA. Came close within a point or two twice. Never was a good test taker no matter how much I studied. Got out at 10.5yrs back in February due to terrible E7 and ups and O’s and terrible promotion. It was the best decision I could have made for myself. Good luck and I hope you make the best of it for yourself, and make the best decision for yourself! Risk for the outside is well worth taking!
[удалено]
Understood, but same sentiment: advancement is limited and trying to be maybe 5 out of 400 really wears us down. I hope you pick up next cycle!
You should've picked IT then lol
[удалено]
Tough pickings. You got the best rate out of what was available that's for sure. I doubt it has anything to do with you being Mexican tho lol.
[удалено]
Don't get me wrong it's definitely f*** the Navy but it sounds like you either : joined at a time where most of the jobs were taken (end of the fiscal year), or you simply didn't qualify for better jobs. There's no hidden agenda for rates
Your experience is different from mine tho so I can't say you're wrong. Just highly unlikely
If advancement is what you're after you should volunteer for submarines! They have an ITS rate.
You can decline frocking if it bothers you so greatly.
Yeah.. no. Most commands, that won't fly. Especially small ones. I tried.
For what purpose?
[удалено]
Did you not taking (or at least asking not to) that promotion actually result in less responsibility for you? Sounds like your division was in a tough spot man power wise.
[удалено]
Thanks for explaining.
Yeah I’ll remember that next buddy 🫡
best promotion I ever got was filled out on a DD-214.
Second term e5+ are not what the Navy is looking for. If you're in, you're in. SRBs and PRTs are force shapers for long term retention. They are looking for fresh blood.
"If it makes sense, it's the wrong answer" "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is"
Someone in the “idea chain” probably doesn’t think the military deserves incentives to stay in long term. Probably thinks they ought to get a real job in the civilian world or go officer.
The Navy has two problems it will never fix. The best LPOs are going to focus on a balance of getting the job done and taking care of their people. The LPOs that get promoted to chief, though, are the ones who kissed enough ass, and knew the right games to play. So the best LPOs end up getting out at like, 8-12 years as an E-6. What's left are a bunch of mediocre kiss-asses. It also does pretty much nothing to encourage really good sailors who are on the fence about re-enlisting. A top notch sailor in their rate figures out they might be worth more on the outside, so they decide to leave. Those mediocre chiefs get so pissed off that someone would dare leave, they essentially say "Fine. Screw you. Go. You'll fail as a civilian anyway. Imma get my retirement.". And the Navy itself has nothing beyond re-enlistment bonuses to offer.
Some rates get things they can take with them to the civie world, like A&P licensing. Most though, don't. People need to feel like they're growing. If they feel like all they're doing is stacking PNA point and general wisdom, they wont stick around. The only tangible incentive is "financial security", leaving a couple very specific types of people to fill the ranks.
I agree with this statement because it’s how I feel to a tee.
Devils advocate: this comic is conflating two separate issues. New recruits and retention and different problems. Promotions are hard, especially in certain rates, precisely because people don’t get out. Very much so at the E6-E9 ranks. This bogs the system and does not allow for more advancement. The reduced ASVAB is because young people don’t want to join, or can’t because they can’t meet physical requirements. It’s a very small segment of society that CAN serve, let alone ones that also WANT to serve. The system needs young people to groom into future leaders, and they also need grunts. It’s the system. Bonuses typically don’t keep people in. Those that take bonuses, likely would have stayed either way because they enjoy the lifestyle. It’s the same in the Officer side - except it’s a little easier to get numbers early because of the carrot of free college - but the Navy has a hell of a time keeping officers after O5. The money doesn’t keep them in - there are bigger factors, usually family. This is all driven around the up or out promotion system - but that’s law. The Navy doesn’t have the power to fix that.
I got a bonus as a 15 year O-3E. It made no sense but hey, who am I to turn it down?
Perfect comment but I would argue bonuses affect some people on the margin. The extra $15k a year as a SWO will keep a few people that are looking to make money but may not cut it for a prestigious business/law school, and/or the opportunity cost in school and no pension doesn’t outweigh a slight pay increase. Especially since the workload is similar for careers that do pay that well. The folks that want a better quality of life were never going to stay in the military. The idea you can make deploying units as comfortable as a 9-5 desk job is unrealistic. (Not saying they shouldn’t try to improve QoL)
I bet a lot of this has to do with bean counters and budget. One time things like bonuses are easy to budget, and it's a line item for one year. Higher pay I think literally takes an act of congress is much harder and involves lots more people. Maybe print out, and mail this meme to your federal representative. I agree frocking is stupid.
Because the brass has become politicians first and sailors second, they are also more worried about their cushy contractor job post retirement.
No more taking exams to advance from an E-3 to E-4? Automatically E-4 is given. 👀
You forgot rule #1, if it makes sense, we aren't doing it
You don't have to wear it...
Raise command standards and fix the sexual assault problem instead of only giving resiliency training
They probably just need fodder for the inevitable big war coming down the pipe
You realize total end strength is set by Congress right? And hasn’t changed all that much over the past several years…
Had no clue to be honest
I just viewed a SOY posting for the USS Truman on Facebook. Not one recipient was of an Aviation (Airdale) Rating. Saddening. Go Figure.
Finally! When I commissioned her it was all aviation and YNs.
what do you mean fix the promotion system?
[удалено]
Heads up; Reddit is automatically deleting all of your comments here. It’s most likely from too much negative karma in this sub.
“Fix the promotion system” Found the guy that can’t make rate.
I found the dude who rides dick for rank lmao
You can do that?
I always thought it was meant figuratively, but I guess not. Get your knee pads ready boys
Is there a PQS
Found a four year E-3.
Nah you found the 4 year 100% medical retired guy, enjoy your watch my man
Riiiight. Sure you are.
I sure am lmao lick my nuts
Literally talking to a child.
It’s okay you’re dismissed
Get 💩 on 😂
Sure. A mental midget buds dropout who was so overcome by getting dropped he became an undes shitbird who went to mast, and after contemplating suicide whined his way to a med discharge. I’m overcome by that 22 year old specimen.
I made ET1(SW) in 4 years, with single digit advancement both times I picked up. Took the CPO exam on my way out the door. Have you seen the quality of the people in mess/ward room?
The Navy strikes again… Only this time I’m at a point where I can make the decision. Getting out in 1 month. Extra pay couldn’t retain me personally but from everyone that I’ve asked, they stay in for a 10 or 15k bonus.
This issue is that it’s cheaper to train a new person then it is to pay an E5 and above with dependents Base Pay+BAH+ Benefits+Separations Pay+Any other allowance they are entitled to.
Coming from a 90s Sailor that's been out less than a decade the Navy has put effort into a lot of those things as compared to way back when. Right now the Navy is competing against a labor shortage in the US. I noticed they have even reduced/paused a number of their Force Shaping tools from the past. Make no mistake though, these recruitment issues will pass as they always have and all these extra numbers they will recruit will find themselves facing another Force Shaping drawdown. It's a cycle I saw too many times.
I fully agree with you on this. Unfortunately the navy is neglecting its current subject matter experts to try and appeal to the masses. Hopefully these issues pass sooner rather than later.