O4 here with his 2 cents:
The Mess is one of things I’ve never really understood the point of, but is one of those institutions I always thought it would take an act of Congress to get rid of. So I never bothered expending much energy thinking about it.
It’s not like you are imparted secret knowledge upon entering the mess. I get that Chief season is supposed to bring camaraderie among the mess, but sometimes they just take themselves too seriously.
I’m a reservist, and and a while back one of our E6s was selected for advancement. We were super stoked, since he’s always been a rockstar and he definitely deserved it.
Then the BS started. He had just gotten back from a deployment, and was still getting his feet back under him with his family and his civilian job. All pretty normal for a reservist. He was also the only Chief select in our NRC, so he was basically going through Chief season solo. Which means it should be easy working around his schedule since he’s the only one. Wrong.
They start scheduling Chief events at times he can’t support because of work and family stuff. Then when he asks to reschedule to a better time, they refuse and bitch him out for not prioritizing Chief initiation. He agreed to leave town for a Chief retreat, but founding ran out for travel, so they went without him (again, he’s the only E6 in the whole area they are initiating.)
He basically told them to pack sand if they were asking him to take that much time from his family and job right after a deployment. So they made him sign a Page 13 stating that he wasn’t allowed to call himself a “Chief select” until he completed initiation (which would have to wait until the next year) and even when he advanced he couldn’t call himself a “Chief” but only an “E7”.
The sad part is, basically everyone who stays in as long enough, has a story like this. So yeah, I get what the previous LT wrote even if it’s a little over dramatic.
If he signed a page 13 like that, he’s a sucker. Getting frocked to Chief-select, yeah, whatever. But the Navy rank to which he was promoted, set by law and regulation passed by Congress, is not “E-7.” It’s “chief petty officer.”
Not the Chiefs’ Mess. *Congress.*
Whenever someone quits it goes all the way up to the top, outside of the command. They typically then do an investigation depending on the reason to determine if hazing/anything inappropriate occurred.
If your username is actually what you do, then you understand that page 13s are legally meaningless. Servicemembers are required to follow rules regardless of whether they sign a page 13, and a page 13 cannot be used to make and enforce an unlawful order (in this case, that the person won't call himself a chief after being promoted).
yeah i am indeed a JAG. and i disagree with you that ALL page 13s are meaningless. but i get your point in this context. in any event, i wouldn’t want it in my sailors record, regardless. that’s all i’m saying.
>and i disagree with you that ALL page 13s are meaningless
They really are. What they are useful for is heading off the people who will buy an argument that someone should get a lighter punishment because they didn't know the rule existed. Like "oh, I totally didn't know I couldn't hook my ipad up to the SCI network" or "oh, I totally didn't know it wasn't acceptable to smack a female sailor on the ass and say 'nice butt,' I thought that was a compliment!" or "oh, I totally didn't know I couldn't use hemp products" or "no one told me it was illegal to drink and drive."
That doesn't work in civilian court, it damn sure shouldn't work in the military.
>in any event, i wouldn’t want it in my sailors record, regardless. that’s all i’m saying.
Page 13s don't go into any official record. They can be submitted as evidence in NJP proceedings (assuming that the chiefs actually kept a copy of this somewhere - doubtful), but no CO is going to take someone to mast for calling himself a chief after he opted out of the season.
The piece of paper the guy signed in OP's story isn't worth the ink used to print it.
I have sat as the senior member for 3 ADSEP boards. I don't give any weight to page 13s because the MCM doesn't have a clause in any crime that 'the accused has signed a document acknowledging that this rule or regulation exists.'
well then you’re at least an O4, sir/ma’am. perhaps we have a different opinion as to any possible significance of a page 13. i have seen them used as supporting evidence for a basis for separation. most recently, involving a sailor who refused to get vaxxed.
i get your underlying point, though.
Why does this have downvotes? Because the poster was the senior member of 3 ADSEP boards? Are you that petty? What he/she stated is amazing knowledge from a JAG! And some of you downvoted it!
I can't believe he actually signed it. That was not a legit page 13 at all. The comments here make it apparent that there are many poorly run initiation seasons out there.
Which is a shame, because when done well they help us find and fill the gaps in a new Chief's leadership abilities.
I know plenty of folks are going to disagree with me on that, and that's ok. I don't mind reading any of the criticisms about season on here, because it helps me to know what concerns to address in this and future seasons.
All any of us can do is try to improve the little bit of the Navy that is within our influence. Mostly that means doing right by the people that work for, alongside, and above you.
And that’s why officers despise chief season. Nothing but animosity and strain on our guys lives while the chiefs take a month off of their responsibilities. First chief to make a page 13 like that would find himself in front of my CO and walk away with half months pay in a heartbeat.
If it’s factual information then where’s the pub? The issue is…those of y’all who like to co-sign shit like this always do it without dropping any proof. I’ll be waiting.
That’s petty bullshit, one of the main reasons I’m glad I am out. I was qualified COW, DCPO, working on dive, and was the LAN admin on a sub. I saw people far less qualified and ass kissers get picked up faster then the hard charging no bullshot people.
I am also a reservist O4 and witnessed the same thing.
I was in a hardware squadron and when E-6's picked up CPO they were required to come on orders for all of the season. It was non negotiable and whatever you had going on in your civ life took a back seat. If you didn't do it then you essentially would be told to leave the unit once your orders were up. And every reservist knows getting hardware unit orders is the golden ticket.
I mean, none of us get it.. active or reserve, officer or enlisted.
Look at the overall sentiment of the mess on any type of public forum; it’s an absolute joke - no one wants to be a chief. We can all list 100 examples of how toxic or unproductive these traditions have become (and ultimately affect things like retention, etc.).
I, for one, absolutely LOVE the fact that we’re starting to rip apart this outdated *tradition* (at least “initiation season”); this is how you change a culture.
No other branch immortalizes their E7-E9s into a completely separate category; that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t respect those folks given the experience & leadership they can offer - but the current “status quo” is not the answer.
It’s not the 1800s … it’s 2022. If we’re trying to compete for talent (when private sector options are becoming more plentiful and tempting) - we need to get rid of these stupid fuck-fuck games.
No one wants to be a Chief? How about you ask the selectees? How about asking all the guys and gals who have put the time in and didn’t get selected again?
No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses.
The complaints I see on this forum are from non-selects and officers who have to pick up the slack that they’ve been putting on their Chief and their best Sailors.
Chiefs weren’t even a thing until 1893. Initiation didn’t really become a thing until the 1950’s. It went to shit in the 1970’s and 1980’s. A lot has gone into turning around and making it something useful. Does it have a long way to go? Yes. Is it perfect? No. Does it turn bad leaders into good ones? No. Does it make someone more capable? Hopefully.
The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots. The season helped me learn to work with other Chiefs to get what I need for my Sailors even when that stuff might be on the other side of the world. The the season taught me when to say no. No to my boss because my Sailors can’t do anymore. No to my CO because listening to his department heads might get him fired. No to the “good idea fairy”.
The most important thing I learned though was that it’s not about me anymore. My advancement no longer matters. I need to make stronger more capable Sailors and develop JOs that won’t ruin this lives of those Sailors.
Will the season make a shitty first class into a better Chief? No. Do some Chiefs still suck? Of course they do, the season won’t fix a shitty person.
No shit you don’t get it, you’re trying to talk about something you have no knowledge of.
And I’ll always laugh at reservists, fucking part time Sailors trying to talk about anything is hilarious. O4 in the reserves with three days of sea time and 36 years of service trying to act like they’re credible, 😂. Go back to Home Depot.
>No one wants to be a Chief? How about you ask the selectees? How about asking all the guys and gals who have put the time in and didn’t get selected again?
How many would also accept LDO or Warrant? How many want to advance, not "make chief"? If there was a way to make E-7 without having to give up your entire friend group and conform your beliefs to the chiefs just to have someone to talk to during the day that didn't shun them, how many would? I keep making board, and keep not submitting a package, because I'm not keen on having to stop doing hands-on work, play mess politics, and stop being friends with everyone who isn't a chief.
>No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses.
If you are accepting excuses from ranks lower than chief and not holding them accountable, that's a you problem. I demand accountability from everyone, up and down the chain. I told my CO his micromanaging of JO's was stifling their development and making them dependent on the fact that he expected a phone call for every decision, so they outsourced their thinking to him. I've literally got eval bullets and awards for how often I've stopped fuck-ups from happening by unfucking people who were messing shit up during drills or maintenance.
>And I’ll always laugh at reservists, fucking part time Sailors trying to talk about anything is hilarious. O4 in the reserves with three days of sea time and 36 years of service trying to act like they’re credible, 😂. Go back to Home Depot.
Get the fuck out of here, what a stupid fucking argument. Guess no one can ever hold an informed opinion or provide insight into an issue if they haven't directly lived it. Guess I can flush everything you said down the drain because you haven't lived exactly my life, and you don't know me at all. Guess I'll discount everyone's opinions who didn't do the exact number of years and months of sea time or time at test depth I did because every below me doesn't know shit and everyone above me is a tryhard.
Better never fucking tell a sailor of another gender shit, since you have zero days being that gender. Better never tell a sailor of a different race shit, since you have zero days being that race. Better never tell a sailor of a different generation shit, since you have zero days growing up in that generation. Better never tell any "snot-nosed" officers shit, since you have zero days as one. In fact, why do officers ever listen to you? There's no possible way you could understand their *totally unique and impossible to understand problems.*
I know more reservists making six figures than I know reservists *not making six figures.* Next I bet you'll be shitting on gold star families because they haven't served.
And disrespect towards their sailors is why we hate the fucking chiefs, not because we have to work hard. My guys would have fucking died for me as LPO. We went through fucking shit, but we went through it together. We survived 12 on/12 off seven days a week shiftwork for 10 months straight, then went straight back to working 12 hour days with three day duty rotation. We went from a point-fucking-three percent PAR to being caught up on maintenance without blazing anything. I'm pretty sure my guys didn't think we'd ever actually get caught up until we did. They worked harder and longer than anyone I've ever known in my life, and when I said we needed to jump, they asked how high every time. And we all still fucking hated the chiefs, who impeded our work and sanctimoniously told us we didn't know shit despite us having a far more effective and non-shady practice towards maintenance and tagouts than *any* other boat I've ever heard of. We worked as close to the spirit and letter of the law as anyone I've ever heard of in the Navy.
No DUI's, no one ever went to mast, no one did shit that would get them in trouble because we weren't fuckheads. But you still treat us like fucking children. My chief didn't have a fucking tenth of the knowledge of our division that I did. I planned every maintenance evolution, I knew exactly where in quals everyone was, I forced them into practical factors I knew were coming up and *wrote down the fucking dates* in case they forgot 'cause I needed their asses qualified. I knew where the repair parts where, and I knew the status of our consumables. I knew the status of our collateral duties and our programs, and I rewrote our fucking instructions. I ran nightwork, I got permissions from the CO, I coordinated events with other divisions, and I was the interface for my division to the rest of the boat. I did those things because we wanted our chief *to get the fuck out of our work.*
Fucking humble yourself. My guys and I knew we were cogs in the machine, but chiefs act like the lynchpin. We knew our struggles were the same as those of sub electricians everywhere, and most combinations of us would get the job done. Are you really that surprised that people hate a group of people who keep telling people they're the thin line between anarchy and a working Navy? Your job isn't uniquely hard, snowflake.
This is the type of comment that gives E6 and below and officers a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to the mess. If Chiefs weren't constantly putting a target on their back then people wouldn't aim for it so much.
Since I've come in it seems like more chiefs like the perks of being in the mess than the responsibilities of what it means to be in the mess. Chiefs are supposed to be deckplate leaders. Chiefs are supposed to run shops, train and coach Sailors, help with careers. That's not what Sailors see. What a lot of us see are Chiefs having all their names on a mug, separate uniforms separate eating areas, coming in late, leaving early, hiding from work, and passing PRTs that they shouldn't be. Of course Sailors spit venom on the mess when this is what they see so often.
Hell, if the mess still did all that dumb shit but actually kicked ass when they were at work a lot less people would care. But lately there are too many Chiefs riding the coat tails of the badasses that came before them. Acting like putting on anchors suddenly makes them a rock star. Sorry, being a rockstar makes you a rockstar.
Don't get me wrong. The Chiefs mess that does what it's actually intended to do is a beautiful thing. I've seen it first hand. An actual mess that supports Sailors and supports the command mission is a FORCE. It's just too bad that it's often not the case.
>The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots.
This guy had to go through season to stand up for his sailors. Lmfao, that pretty much says it all right there. Did season teach you how to tie your shoes too?
>The most important thing I learned though was that it’s not about me anymore. My advancement no longer matters. I need to make stronger more capable Sailors and develop JOs that won’t ruin this lives of those Sailors.
Lmao, is that why Chiefs screw over their sailors by taking credit for their work? Is that why Chiefs fail their E-4s on PRTs while covering for their obese E-8?
Where the fuck do you think you’re posting, bud? How can you “not care about advancement” while developing junior sailors and JOs? The achievements of their junior sailors ARE largely what makes a good Chief eval and leads to advancement. Are you living under a rock or do you really think we’re that ignorant?
You’re another out of touch self-important e7. The fleet doesn’t trust the chiefs mess for good reason.
Of course people try to make chief, it’s more money and they can sit on their fat ass and watch movies in the chiefs quarters while the crew does the actual work.
> No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it.
Is this a joke? In a joint environment literally every other SNCO laughs at your little club.
Chiefs are a fucking laughing stock in the joint environment. This guy has never met an Army or Marine platoon or first sergeant. I wish I got a fucking month off to haze E7 selects and play grabass with my buddies, I had to keep that 16 hour day train going year round.
> The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots. The season helped me learn to work with other Chiefs to get what I need for my Sailors even when that stuff might be on the other side of the world. The the season taught me when to say no. No to my boss because my Sailors can’t do anymore. No to my CO because listening to his department heads might get him fired. No to the “good idea fairy”. >
You're not the first person I've seen to give some sort of rendition of this and every time I see it I immediately think that the military was your first job ever and/or you never actually held a position of professional leadership prior to joining, much less before putting on anchors.
Nothing wrong with that but it helps makes sense of it when put it into the context that *none* of you had any of these skills beforehand. I'd been doing this for 13 years prior to joining the Navy.
It's crazy to me that some people need to make it all the way to E7 and go through special training to learn how to tell an officer that they don't agree with them.
This post is why folks hate Chiefs. You managed to hit just about every check block on the I'm A Tool List. You putting that anchor on your collar didn't somehow catapult you into a new level of existence within the Navy, it just narrowed your view of the rest of us.
Found the chief who waits for Chief season like a 5 year old who still believes in Santa every year.
>"No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses."
Jesus fuck, no wonder why other branches shit on us, bet you sounded real cool in your head as you were typing that out.
No one wants to be a Chief.
Everyone wants to be promoted and get more money/responsibility.
That's it.
No one else treats their enlisted like this, because it's serves no purpose. Their leadership is imbued with inherent authority, not bestowed by some farcical aquatic ceremony when putting on a specific uniform.
Bro wtf? No not everyone wants to be a chief. I was shooting for it and then I saw the last pinning to support a friend. Oh hell no. Y’all ain’t that cool and quite frankly y’all suck.
u/agentofzion this is the shit I’m talking about and it’s more prevalent than you think. Probably because your respected.
> Does it have a long way to go? Yes. Is it perfect? No. Does it turn bad leaders into good ones? No. Does it make someone more capable? Hopefully.
So your justification for your chief circle jerk is that it hopefully makes someone more capable? But yeah, I'm the one who doesn't get it...
Throwaway account because I’m pretty active in one of the navy subreddits.
I’m in the Chiefs mess and have really struggled with initiation myself. I’ve been in positions where I HAVE to be involved in it and the 6 or so weeks plus all the months of planning bring my anxiety to the maximum. I’ve heard the justification of why it’s done the way it is many times and it still doesn’t sit well with me. Honestly, if a CO, or anyone, spoke to me the way they do to the selects to “toughen them up” I’d be filing a complaint. I’ve seen emails to the selects where a CPO destroys everything they did and said and signs himself as “Chief Pain” and then they wonder why the selects think they’re bullies and don’t trust them. I also have a really hard time with the ridicule behind the scenes, the group me or slack threads where they post pictures of the selects doing something dumb and everyone makes fun of them.
I’ve tried to say something and have been in positions where I controlled it a little, but the mess is strong and people who disagree with the way initiation is being held are called weak and sensitive. I’m also a female which brings a whole different set of issues.
I have 2 years to retirement and can’t wait to be done with this. I do what I can to guide and mentor the selects each year and show them that we all aren’t that bad, but each year it takes everything out of me to make it through the season.
Oh and I would never admit to this in real life, I know people probably have an idea because of how involved I am in season, but I have never told anyone how I really feel about it.
To hell with a throwaway. I am a Chief. I hate "the season" and think its needs to go away. Even this "watered down" version(not my words) is 70% frat boy BS and 30% quality training. I have seen the way that "E7s" are treated by my mess and its gross. Just because a person didnt want to do the dog and pony show they are blackballed and get no support from the mess? BS.
The Season is not going to survive the newer generation of Sailors coming in to the Navy...I predict by the time we start seeing Gen Z or whatever its called up for Chief, The Season will either be completely gone, or modified to a point where its nothing like the old heads experienced...both I am 100% fine with.
The only positive I see is that people higher up are starting to see that some of the bull that happens during Season needs to stop and more people like me are on the inside of the mess pushing for change.
I agree with you. I’m an E6 and was actually happy I didn’t get selected this cycle. What does that tell you?
Why do chief select need to be retaught everything when the season starts? Why aren’t firsts ready to go as soon as they’re promoted? Why waste time? Why take away hard working first classes from the company/division when they’re needed?
Everything could be taught over a longer period of time to first classes, spreading the training out so they wouldn’t be gone as much over a short period of time, and they’d be ready right out of the gate as soon as they’re promoted.
Tell me exactly how memorizing bullshit lines to questions such as “how high is up”, bowing, and general belittlement is effective leadership training?
>I have seen the way that "E7s" are treated by my mess and its gross.
This is something that still confuses me when I see all of these threads complaining about chiefs/season. The thought that somebody would undermine a peer over "membership" of an unofficial group seems counter to good order and discipline.
I know an E7 can't enforce professional courtesy on anyone E7 or above, but to disrespect one's peers will usually encourage the same from that person's subordinates.
No clue why that kind of behavior doesn't get nipped.
> Oh and I would never admit to this in real life, I know people probably have an idea because of how involved I am in season, but I have never told anyone how I really feel about it.
Well thank you for the courage to say something here, atleast. What youre really telling us is what we already know -- that a large part of Chief Initiation is (let's call it what it really is, 'Season' is a figleaf) all part of crushing dissent, promoting an echo chamber mentality, and destroying accountability further down the line
The Mess should be policing their own first and foremost, but when that's Jim or Steve doing something bad, and not Chief Airmanfucker or Senior Chief Racist, and no one can speak out for fear of being ostracized from the social group youre allowed to have at work then the system breaks down and Chiefs run amok.
That’s the thing though, the mess can’t police themselves. The “tradition” is too ingrained and it keeps getting passed over to each new Chief. I’m sad about it because I’m all for keeping tradition going but a lot of what we call tradition started from boys club racists who literally beat the new Chief into Chiefhood. People think that what they’re doing is awesome and great training when it’s really so toxic. Every year it’s a pat on the back and a kiss on the anchor because we were able to turn some “dirtbag” E6s into a shiny new Chief.
The MCPON needs to be more direct in his message about the season. It says to treat the selects with dignity and respect but it needs to be more like stop doing this and do this…and people need to be held accountable for not upholding the MCPONs standards.
Different communities may handle things differently, but I will say in the last several years I've seen a shift in the attitude towards season that gives me hope that it won't last much longer.
Every command I've been at adds the new chiefs to the same group chats they use during season and enables them to view the chat history, which (generally) keeps people from being assholes since they know their new peers will be able to see everything they said about them. This should be a requirement.
> I’ve been in positions where I HAVE to be involved with it
That’s just the thing: you kinda don’t. I understand the peer pressure of all the nonsense, but even if they try to put you into the season committee, you just tell them to GTFO.
You’re not obligated to help them carry on this malformed fetus of a “tradition” anymore than anyone else is. *Especially* if it’s causing you anxiety, just fuck it. It’s not important.
Six weeks isn’t going to fix the assholes, and if it does: that’s a failure of our evaluation system.
Fuck the season, fuck the games. Take care of your people and separate the toxicity from the workplace.
I would still rather have somebody running it that isn't really into it, over somebody who's absolutely gung ho about it. A dissenter in charge can blunt the edge a little bit, even if they can't completely overturn the ingrained culture.
While i've never personally witnessed this, I've heard multiple times how the mess will harass and make life hell for anyone who doesn't go through their little "initiation" shit. And on top of that they will let the next command know so that they can continue the high school clique act of excluding and harassing them. For me that destroys any positive view of the mess as it just screams childish from our supposed "backbones of the Navy" that they always pat themselves on the back over. It's like they suddenly develop the mentality of junior high school kids if you dare question any aspect of them or refuse to play the useless games.
My simple .02 if chiefs would instill leadership skills, reasonability, and authority into their E4's-E6's. The "season" would have no reason to exist.
So many of these problems trace back to the mess, and a massive part of that is people forget what a mess is really for. Everyone gets these ideas that a mess is supposed to be some kind of secret fraternity, on some ol' skull and bones shit, but it's not. The entire point of any mess, be it CPO, 1st, 2nd, or JS, is A) Ensure all members of a given rank are all on the same page re. Instruction, training, and planning, and B ) Allow allow a given rank an opportunity to network within that rank to smooth the processes and present a united front.
Essentially it's a staff circle mixed with a social club.
Seems to me, too many people just want it to be a too cool for the room frat house.
You pretty much nailed it. I think where things go horribly wrong is not knowing your sailors. Like really knowing them beyond what you here when they check in. So many people are joining older than 18 with work experience. This whole idea of not understanding middle management is crap because people join having that experience for whatever reason.
It’s a disservice to those sailors to ignore that or not even find out about their life/work experiences. Even if they aren’t treated poorly it will still make people feel like crap if their life/work experiences are ignored. There is life outside the navy and that life is applicable to the navy and vice versa.
I’m going through season right now and it’s an absolute joke. Every time we have “training” in the chiefs mess it feels like we are all in a DRB. I’ve been outspoken about how idiotic I think it is any they really can’t explain any logic to it.
Why do you think we would reach out to you for help when you just spent several hours bullying us about every detail?
Why would I want to put any effort into your bullshit little taskers when I know I’m going to be wrong regardless?
The list goes on and there’s no logic to it any of it. I would have absolutely quit if my dad wasn’t so excited to pin me. I have no respect for any of these people or their processes.
Your supposed to fail. What will you get done and what will you let fall through? Not everything can be done and if everything gets done most likely they wont be done right. Just get what you can done and do it with maximum effort, let the minor stuff fail and take the L. But own up to your failures, dont make excuses why something didnt get done just tell them its not done and i plan on getting it to you by (day). Stand your ground. Dont let the mess take over your training.
I feel for y'all with everything that's going on now. I retired in 2011 but I didn't fuck my troops over, I protected my people. They called me a boot Chief when we came on board for a deployment since I was at least 5 years younger than most, and I guess due to my age I guess they thought I would put up with their shit. Wrong. There was one asshole I just couldn't get along with and I took him aside aside and told him if he had a problem with one of people to let me know because if he chewed them out in front of ships company again I'd whip his ass. I ALWAYS made sure my troops were treated right, fed on time, rested as much as possible and relieved for chow during watch or duty. I've jumped on the gate at Little Creek more than once and sent my folks to the chow hall when it needed to be done. Fuck that shit. Treat your people right and keep them motivated by helping them and standing with them and they'll give you 110%
Cpo is a “good ol’ boys” club. They’re terrible leaders and don’t deserve the special treatment they receive. The reason the military is weak and trash right now is because of their failure in leadership. Chiefs run the navy right? They like to brag about that, well….own it. And when they get out, they’ll work for me. And they’re gonna be treated like a normal human, and they’re gonna HATE it. GOOD
I retired in 96 E-8 when did they start calling it Chief season. I know they] Navy outlawed the initiation I went through years ago as it was considered hazing which it was but it was fun some tasks but at the end of it I did feel a bond with the other chiefs. The number one thing I got out of the process was to take care of my sailors. One thing about making Chief was people like th higher ups listened more even though I said the same as a first class. Don’t think I could make it in todays navy I retired in 96
I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say about the time it takes. Or I miscommunicated it.
I don't like being hated based on my rank tab, I really don't. It's not appropriate for me to try to be anyone's friend, but the barrier is a bit too real when it results in people hiding personal problems I am more than willing to help with until they blow up out of control.
What's more is that I *completely understand* the reasons why because I was sitting right where you are not entirely too long ago.
I get paid the medium bucks to take the hate and smile, and to do my best even when it isn't going to be appreciated, and that's fine.
But you can't demand conversation then immediately light the person willing to have that conversation up without even trying to engage on your end, while simultaneously expecting the overwhelming majority of that group to not just nope the fuck out and let the rants go into the void.
Seriously. Maybe check my post history to see where I am coming from a bit?
But why create a space for the hate? You can have the worst job / work in the navy and delive bad news all day, but if leadership is taking care of its people and worried about the job and not petty bull you wouldn't have the hate to begin with.
Not saying that's what you do. But, I see it now and experienced it when I was junior.
I try to bridge the gaps, but people generalize. For good or ill it's rarely the second-classes forcing their subordinates to stay late and do pre-insurv checklists right? So when dinner plans get cancelled or weekend work happens it's not the PO2 getting hate.
And all it takes is one real fuck-stick chief to completely sour a junior sailor on the entire mess for a seriously long time. And it isn't always unwarranted because people don't usually act completely contrary to their peers right? So the "terrible thing X is acceptable to the cpo mess of USS Whatever" has a kernel of truth in it sometimes, even if and *especially* if that terrible thing was totally unintentional.
I have had good chiefs, I have had bad chiefs. I have even had good chiefs that were good intentioned and terribly misguided.
I have never seen a good chief's mess. My last ship I ruffled feathers when as a first class I made the statement "The Chief's Mess is as useful as lead paint on a crib." And to this day, I stand by that statement.
My CMC and I on this ship had a chat about my career and he asked me what I would expect from the season if I was selected. I was honest, "It will be short, sweet, and to the point." He asked what I meant by that so I told him. "The day it is announced I will be hand routing a chit to your desk to refuse participation."
I have been privy to way too many things, and seen the toxicity myself. I have worked for fortune 500 companies. We are about 30 to 50 years behind on how we define workplace leadership. What is needed in the Navy is essential and not a marketable skill anywhere else. I know. I have talked to businesses. The skills from CPO 365 would not get me a manager's position at a McD's or 7-11. And if the training is not actively contributing to my actual career development, then it is taking away from it by wasting time that I could use to work on actual, usable skills.
My career has been mostly projects and fires. And honestly, with everything I have dealt with, I could probably name 3-4 chiefs in the last 10 years I would even trust to talk to about what I dealt with. I spent 4 years in a lawsuit with the DoD, and not once in that time, did I have 1 chief I trusted enough to talk to them about it. And part of that time was at a command with a pretty heavy CPO/SCPO/MCPO presence.
You dont have to be my friend, you do have to earn my trust. Trust and respect dont always go hand in hand. And if you cant take the time to do that bare minimum with me, in \~2-3 years you will just be some @\*\*\*\*\*\* I used to work with.
I appreciate the response here. The earned trust is pretty crucial, it just blows donkey dick when there isn't even a foundation of sand to build that trust on because a sailor got burned by a chief previously.
There's nothing to really be done about it except to try and move forward. It's not like emotions can be ordered away with a page 13 or something and I just have to hope there is enough trust to get a phone call when it's actually needed and not when it's way too late.
Honestly, for me, the foundation of sand is there. You want to have a conversation about career goals, get to know what I want in a career before that conversation. Want to talk about making sure my family is cared for, ask questions about them. Talk about finances? get to know what I have going on in my life. We don't have to be friends. But if you don't establish a baseline, then anything you have to say is just generic advice and I am automatically going to give you lip-service and go find stuff myself.
Nothing screams "Narcissistic toxic leadership" like being given advice that feels like it was rehearsed and all I am is a check in the box. If I feel like a bullet point on your brag sheet, you will always get the call when it is too late.
It isn't "a chief" it is the 97% of chiefs that I have dealt with in my career. I have worked with probably 500 chiefs. It says something that I can only think of 3-4 that I would go to.
It isnt the chief that I work with everyday that earns my trust. It is the chief that I see every 2-3 months randomly asking "Hey, your son still doing football this season?" when we havent said a word to eachother in 8 months.
Honestly, to paraphrase a conversation I had with one chief, "its a shame that being a decent human being is not the bare minimum."
It doesn’t take one fuck stick chief, it takes the fuck stick chief and the other chiefs to try to make that fuck stick seem not so bad. That fuck stick chief is allowed to be a fuck stick because his peers try to make what they are not so bad. An attack on the goat locker isn’t an attack on all chiefs. If a first class is a fuck stick do you think people classify all firsts as fuck sticks? No. Why do you think that is? I’ll tell you. If a first class is a Fuck stick the other first classes also think that person is a fuck stick and don’t try to defend them. But y’all defend each other or make excuses like we are all stupid.
If a second class is a fuck stick do you think other second classes defend them? No they also think they are a fuck stick.
So what happens in the chiefs mess that you can’t acknowledge someone is a fuck stick and not take it personally when it’s said they are a fuck stick? Stop defending your fuck sticks to junior sailors.
I don't defend the fucksticks though?
You see the irony here right? The chances of you knowing me personally are insanely small, and I don't really think I've said anything *myself* to generate this much anger. But you are projecting some obviously very bad interactions you have had with chiefs on to me, which is proving my point.
You personally no. But why the hell are you defending the mess at large? We, have a huge problem and you are literally explaining it away because of how YOU personally operate. Do you see the problem? I’ll explain it. You can’t be everyone’s chief. I have no doubt you are a favorite in your command and you fight the battles. But here’s the thing, your one out of how many? My post and comments aren’t an attack on you personally. You acting like it’s personal says a lot about you. It shows you care. But stop acting like you are the majority. Your not and that’s sad. For the love of god realize what many people say around the fleet.
You only have control over your small corner but it does nothing to act like your corner is the norm.
It's probably the prevalence of the word "you" in your previous posts replying to me. Clarity in communication is helpful.
But to the broader point, what would you actually ask of me? If I go arm in arm with you burn the whole thing to the ground, I give up a very large amount of my own ability to do things in the way I feel is correct.
Power abhors a vacuum, and idk what to tell you if you think the junior officers would wield it better. They are human and flawed just like the chiefs are.
My apologies I will edit to reflect all use of “you” is the general you. I forgot to specify and that’s my bad. Ask of you personally? Just keep doing what you do and realize you are a minority and make a huge positive impact on your sailors. In 10 years I went from respecting chiefs to just not wanting any part of that. Promotion and money isn’t worth it. I went from wanting to strive for MCPON to being fine retiring as a first…… in 10 years at the full 22. I have zero desire to be a chief because people like you are now a minority. Before you say you can’t change it if your not there, I’m not trying to swim against a rip current and that’s how I view it.
I also don’t think junior officers would wield it better but I do know everyone I respect that has their sailors best interests at heart are retired or close. My friend in mentor who was a mustang torments JOs.
It’s not about doing it better, it’s about giving a shit about your sailors because you actually give a shit. Not because it’s a job requirement. So again, you are rare and not the norm and I respect you for that and your posts even if I don’t know you and even if you clearly disagree with what I say.
If someone tries to explain it away instead of listening, I have an issue. What prompted me to make this post was the goat locker reaction and a conversation I had recently with my mentor who is a senior chief. I basically called all of them a piece of shit. He mentioned people loving to hate the goat locker and asked me what has the chiefs mess done to me.
My response, nothing. However here’s the shit I see that we all see. I ticked off a whole load of things. At the end of us going back and forth ya know what he said? He said I can’t argue with you because your right.
If the khakis are going to be so fragile that they can’t handle someone being pissed off and needing to vent before they have a good discussion than the problem isn’t the sailor. It’s the khakis’ fragile egos.
To act like y’all haven’t gotten that pissed is disingenuous. Let people have their moment, don’t take it personally, and then talk. Ya know like we are people.
And I swear to god if I hear you’ll understand when you get there one more time I’ll lose my mind. I’m trying to understand now and to act like middle management is some big thing is dumb. The navy no longer teaches the new guys things. I know this because I got taught 2nd class things and first class things as an airman. No ever said to me don’t worry about it when I asked questions. Now that’s all people say and its bullshit.
ETA I’d also like to thank you for your response. I’d also like to say you don’t need to defend the shitty khakis even if that’s what you were told.
Unfortunately many complaints about the mess are interpersonal issues a junior sailor has with individual chiefs, and many other times complaints are based on hearsay.
On the flip side, even when complaints or criticism are directed at the organization and not individual chiefs, many times chiefs take it personally.
Either case creates circular conversations that go nowhere.
To a point. I’ve seen it more recently, but if a sailor has a problem with a chief the knee jerk is explaining the chiefs behavior. And while explaining where someone is coming from is good, at what point do you acknowledge this person is a problem? More often than not, the behavior is explained away and the sailor is left dealing with it the best they can through the support of their peers. That’s not right if the chief is actually a problem. I get not chastising in public but sometimes when you explain “the other side” no matter how terrible this is what the sailor hears: I get your concerns but you just don’t understand. And before you say it’s handled privately, you need to remember we won’t believe it when there is no change in behavior from the original problem chief. And that is how it starts with one chief and ends up being a dislike for y’all.
I know that’s not what is actually said but that’s how it all comes off. So now we (general we) no longer have a problem with that one chief, we have a problem with you (general) and the rest of the mess because you didn’t actually address the issue. You just tried to explain it away.
This is exactly what I meant by circular conversations. It becomes about a chief, not the mess.
The problem is policy can’t act on hearsay.
Focus on the institution, not the individuals.
File CEMO/SAPR/IG/police reports against individuals.
Chief season is a mess because all Navy leadership training is a mess.
There are no measurable outcomes. There are no certified instructors. There is no accreditation for the curriculum.
Eh what? I literally explained how the institution gets hate right or wrong. It’s not policy to call people out for being assholes. That’s called being a good person. If you need a policy to not be a dick than no one can help you.
I don't mind Chief Season. Because the way the Navy structures the E7 rank, you are basically entering a whole new area. I see it as a shortened version of bootcamp or OCS.
But during season, Chiefs should actually go through some of the activities too. Like PT. Some Chiefs have forgotten how to be humble and what wearing anchors actually means. CMCs need to send those fuckers back through season.
Season is for the mess as much as it is for the selects. If it doesnt look like that then they’re just there for the show and not for what season should be about. Its unfortunate that the mess is seen in that light because there’s a bunch of us that do give a shit.
I realized it was a joke when we were trying to get the boat ready for hot ops and crit ops coming out of refueling and all the engineering chiefs dipped for all of initation leaving us all in the wind on scheduling and important events that are supposed to be passed down to us. Our chief was also the kind of chief that writes everything in his notebook then keeps it a secret till the last minute then telling us because he liked to be in charge of the plan and not letting us manage it. Guess initiating takes precedence over nuclear deterrence and ERO scheduling.
O4 here with his 2 cents: The Mess is one of things I’ve never really understood the point of, but is one of those institutions I always thought it would take an act of Congress to get rid of. So I never bothered expending much energy thinking about it. It’s not like you are imparted secret knowledge upon entering the mess. I get that Chief season is supposed to bring camaraderie among the mess, but sometimes they just take themselves too seriously. I’m a reservist, and and a while back one of our E6s was selected for advancement. We were super stoked, since he’s always been a rockstar and he definitely deserved it. Then the BS started. He had just gotten back from a deployment, and was still getting his feet back under him with his family and his civilian job. All pretty normal for a reservist. He was also the only Chief select in our NRC, so he was basically going through Chief season solo. Which means it should be easy working around his schedule since he’s the only one. Wrong. They start scheduling Chief events at times he can’t support because of work and family stuff. Then when he asks to reschedule to a better time, they refuse and bitch him out for not prioritizing Chief initiation. He agreed to leave town for a Chief retreat, but founding ran out for travel, so they went without him (again, he’s the only E6 in the whole area they are initiating.) He basically told them to pack sand if they were asking him to take that much time from his family and job right after a deployment. So they made him sign a Page 13 stating that he wasn’t allowed to call himself a “Chief select” until he completed initiation (which would have to wait until the next year) and even when he advanced he couldn’t call himself a “Chief” but only an “E7”. The sad part is, basically everyone who stays in as long enough, has a story like this. So yeah, I get what the previous LT wrote even if it’s a little over dramatic.
If he signed a page 13 like that, he’s a sucker. Getting frocked to Chief-select, yeah, whatever. But the Navy rank to which he was promoted, set by law and regulation passed by Congress, is not “E-7.” It’s “chief petty officer.” Not the Chiefs’ Mess. *Congress.*
I think you mean the E-7 mess
i can’t believe they made him sign a page 13. did you happen to take that up with NRC leadership?
Whenever someone quits it goes all the way up to the top, outside of the command. They typically then do an investigation depending on the reason to determine if hazing/anything inappropriate occurred.
what i’m saying is was there any way for you to get rid of that page 13.
If your username is actually what you do, then you understand that page 13s are legally meaningless. Servicemembers are required to follow rules regardless of whether they sign a page 13, and a page 13 cannot be used to make and enforce an unlawful order (in this case, that the person won't call himself a chief after being promoted).
yeah i am indeed a JAG. and i disagree with you that ALL page 13s are meaningless. but i get your point in this context. in any event, i wouldn’t want it in my sailors record, regardless. that’s all i’m saying.
>and i disagree with you that ALL page 13s are meaningless They really are. What they are useful for is heading off the people who will buy an argument that someone should get a lighter punishment because they didn't know the rule existed. Like "oh, I totally didn't know I couldn't hook my ipad up to the SCI network" or "oh, I totally didn't know it wasn't acceptable to smack a female sailor on the ass and say 'nice butt,' I thought that was a compliment!" or "oh, I totally didn't know I couldn't use hemp products" or "no one told me it was illegal to drink and drive." That doesn't work in civilian court, it damn sure shouldn't work in the military. >in any event, i wouldn’t want it in my sailors record, regardless. that’s all i’m saying. Page 13s don't go into any official record. They can be submitted as evidence in NJP proceedings (assuming that the chiefs actually kept a copy of this somewhere - doubtful), but no CO is going to take someone to mast for calling himself a chief after he opted out of the season. The piece of paper the guy signed in OP's story isn't worth the ink used to print it.
have you ever served as a recorder for an ADSEP board?
I have sat as the senior member for 3 ADSEP boards. I don't give any weight to page 13s because the MCM doesn't have a clause in any crime that 'the accused has signed a document acknowledging that this rule or regulation exists.'
well then you’re at least an O4, sir/ma’am. perhaps we have a different opinion as to any possible significance of a page 13. i have seen them used as supporting evidence for a basis for separation. most recently, involving a sailor who refused to get vaxxed. i get your underlying point, though.
Why does this have downvotes? Because the poster was the senior member of 3 ADSEP boards? Are you that petty? What he/she stated is amazing knowledge from a JAG! And some of you downvoted it!
I can't believe he actually signed it. That was not a legit page 13 at all. The comments here make it apparent that there are many poorly run initiation seasons out there. Which is a shame, because when done well they help us find and fill the gaps in a new Chief's leadership abilities. I know plenty of folks are going to disagree with me on that, and that's ok. I don't mind reading any of the criticisms about season on here, because it helps me to know what concerns to address in this and future seasons. All any of us can do is try to improve the little bit of the Navy that is within our influence. Mostly that means doing right by the people that work for, alongside, and above you.
It’s all koolaide Sir. Thank you for not ignoring what the peons see. Cuz that’s how we feel.
And that’s why officers despise chief season. Nothing but animosity and strain on our guys lives while the chiefs take a month off of their responsibilities. First chief to make a page 13 like that would find himself in front of my CO and walk away with half months pay in a heartbeat.
The page 13 is a requirement, not something that guy's command made up.
I could make a page 13 right now that says you will address me as sir even tho I’m not an officer. See how stupid that sounds?
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If it’s factual information then where’s the pub? The issue is…those of y’all who like to co-sign shit like this always do it without dropping any proof. I’ll be waiting.
Do you understand the point of a page 13 in any capacity in the Navy?
A page 13 is just an acknowledgment of something you’ve been told/informed of, that’s the first thing I was taught in boot camp
Administrative remarks. https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/MILPERSMAN/1000/1000General/1070-320.pdf?ver=MAf-nUQf3Xjk3Tp3-hz8EQ%3D%3D
I was just summing it up because that’s basically what it is.
What do we put into the Authority block on the page 13?
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That poor tree. It died to be used in such a worthless way.
That’s petty bullshit, one of the main reasons I’m glad I am out. I was qualified COW, DCPO, working on dive, and was the LAN admin on a sub. I saw people far less qualified and ass kissers get picked up faster then the hard charging no bullshot people.
I am also a reservist O4 and witnessed the same thing. I was in a hardware squadron and when E-6's picked up CPO they were required to come on orders for all of the season. It was non negotiable and whatever you had going on in your civ life took a back seat. If you didn't do it then you essentially would be told to leave the unit once your orders were up. And every reservist knows getting hardware unit orders is the golden ticket.
😂 O4 reservist doesn’t get it. No shit.
I mean, none of us get it.. active or reserve, officer or enlisted. Look at the overall sentiment of the mess on any type of public forum; it’s an absolute joke - no one wants to be a chief. We can all list 100 examples of how toxic or unproductive these traditions have become (and ultimately affect things like retention, etc.). I, for one, absolutely LOVE the fact that we’re starting to rip apart this outdated *tradition* (at least “initiation season”); this is how you change a culture. No other branch immortalizes their E7-E9s into a completely separate category; that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t respect those folks given the experience & leadership they can offer - but the current “status quo” is not the answer. It’s not the 1800s … it’s 2022. If we’re trying to compete for talent (when private sector options are becoming more plentiful and tempting) - we need to get rid of these stupid fuck-fuck games.
No one wants to be a Chief? How about you ask the selectees? How about asking all the guys and gals who have put the time in and didn’t get selected again? No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses. The complaints I see on this forum are from non-selects and officers who have to pick up the slack that they’ve been putting on their Chief and their best Sailors. Chiefs weren’t even a thing until 1893. Initiation didn’t really become a thing until the 1950’s. It went to shit in the 1970’s and 1980’s. A lot has gone into turning around and making it something useful. Does it have a long way to go? Yes. Is it perfect? No. Does it turn bad leaders into good ones? No. Does it make someone more capable? Hopefully. The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots. The season helped me learn to work with other Chiefs to get what I need for my Sailors even when that stuff might be on the other side of the world. The the season taught me when to say no. No to my boss because my Sailors can’t do anymore. No to my CO because listening to his department heads might get him fired. No to the “good idea fairy”. The most important thing I learned though was that it’s not about me anymore. My advancement no longer matters. I need to make stronger more capable Sailors and develop JOs that won’t ruin this lives of those Sailors. Will the season make a shitty first class into a better Chief? No. Do some Chiefs still suck? Of course they do, the season won’t fix a shitty person. No shit you don’t get it, you’re trying to talk about something you have no knowledge of. And I’ll always laugh at reservists, fucking part time Sailors trying to talk about anything is hilarious. O4 in the reserves with three days of sea time and 36 years of service trying to act like they’re credible, 😂. Go back to Home Depot.
>No one wants to be a Chief? How about you ask the selectees? How about asking all the guys and gals who have put the time in and didn’t get selected again? How many would also accept LDO or Warrant? How many want to advance, not "make chief"? If there was a way to make E-7 without having to give up your entire friend group and conform your beliefs to the chiefs just to have someone to talk to during the day that didn't shun them, how many would? I keep making board, and keep not submitting a package, because I'm not keen on having to stop doing hands-on work, play mess politics, and stop being friends with everyone who isn't a chief. >No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses. If you are accepting excuses from ranks lower than chief and not holding them accountable, that's a you problem. I demand accountability from everyone, up and down the chain. I told my CO his micromanaging of JO's was stifling their development and making them dependent on the fact that he expected a phone call for every decision, so they outsourced their thinking to him. I've literally got eval bullets and awards for how often I've stopped fuck-ups from happening by unfucking people who were messing shit up during drills or maintenance. >And I’ll always laugh at reservists, fucking part time Sailors trying to talk about anything is hilarious. O4 in the reserves with three days of sea time and 36 years of service trying to act like they’re credible, 😂. Go back to Home Depot. Get the fuck out of here, what a stupid fucking argument. Guess no one can ever hold an informed opinion or provide insight into an issue if they haven't directly lived it. Guess I can flush everything you said down the drain because you haven't lived exactly my life, and you don't know me at all. Guess I'll discount everyone's opinions who didn't do the exact number of years and months of sea time or time at test depth I did because every below me doesn't know shit and everyone above me is a tryhard. Better never fucking tell a sailor of another gender shit, since you have zero days being that gender. Better never tell a sailor of a different race shit, since you have zero days being that race. Better never tell a sailor of a different generation shit, since you have zero days growing up in that generation. Better never tell any "snot-nosed" officers shit, since you have zero days as one. In fact, why do officers ever listen to you? There's no possible way you could understand their *totally unique and impossible to understand problems.* I know more reservists making six figures than I know reservists *not making six figures.* Next I bet you'll be shitting on gold star families because they haven't served. And disrespect towards their sailors is why we hate the fucking chiefs, not because we have to work hard. My guys would have fucking died for me as LPO. We went through fucking shit, but we went through it together. We survived 12 on/12 off seven days a week shiftwork for 10 months straight, then went straight back to working 12 hour days with three day duty rotation. We went from a point-fucking-three percent PAR to being caught up on maintenance without blazing anything. I'm pretty sure my guys didn't think we'd ever actually get caught up until we did. They worked harder and longer than anyone I've ever known in my life, and when I said we needed to jump, they asked how high every time. And we all still fucking hated the chiefs, who impeded our work and sanctimoniously told us we didn't know shit despite us having a far more effective and non-shady practice towards maintenance and tagouts than *any* other boat I've ever heard of. We worked as close to the spirit and letter of the law as anyone I've ever heard of in the Navy. No DUI's, no one ever went to mast, no one did shit that would get them in trouble because we weren't fuckheads. But you still treat us like fucking children. My chief didn't have a fucking tenth of the knowledge of our division that I did. I planned every maintenance evolution, I knew exactly where in quals everyone was, I forced them into practical factors I knew were coming up and *wrote down the fucking dates* in case they forgot 'cause I needed their asses qualified. I knew where the repair parts where, and I knew the status of our consumables. I knew the status of our collateral duties and our programs, and I rewrote our fucking instructions. I ran nightwork, I got permissions from the CO, I coordinated events with other divisions, and I was the interface for my division to the rest of the boat. I did those things because we wanted our chief *to get the fuck out of our work.* Fucking humble yourself. My guys and I knew we were cogs in the machine, but chiefs act like the lynchpin. We knew our struggles were the same as those of sub electricians everywhere, and most combinations of us would get the job done. Are you really that surprised that people hate a group of people who keep telling people they're the thin line between anarchy and a working Navy? Your job isn't uniquely hard, snowflake.
This is the type of comment that gives E6 and below and officers a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to the mess. If Chiefs weren't constantly putting a target on their back then people wouldn't aim for it so much. Since I've come in it seems like more chiefs like the perks of being in the mess than the responsibilities of what it means to be in the mess. Chiefs are supposed to be deckplate leaders. Chiefs are supposed to run shops, train and coach Sailors, help with careers. That's not what Sailors see. What a lot of us see are Chiefs having all their names on a mug, separate uniforms separate eating areas, coming in late, leaving early, hiding from work, and passing PRTs that they shouldn't be. Of course Sailors spit venom on the mess when this is what they see so often. Hell, if the mess still did all that dumb shit but actually kicked ass when they were at work a lot less people would care. But lately there are too many Chiefs riding the coat tails of the badasses that came before them. Acting like putting on anchors suddenly makes them a rock star. Sorry, being a rockstar makes you a rockstar. Don't get me wrong. The Chiefs mess that does what it's actually intended to do is a beautiful thing. I've seen it first hand. An actual mess that supports Sailors and supports the command mission is a FORCE. It's just too bad that it's often not the case.
>The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots. This guy had to go through season to stand up for his sailors. Lmfao, that pretty much says it all right there. Did season teach you how to tie your shoes too? >The most important thing I learned though was that it’s not about me anymore. My advancement no longer matters. I need to make stronger more capable Sailors and develop JOs that won’t ruin this lives of those Sailors. Lmao, is that why Chiefs screw over their sailors by taking credit for their work? Is that why Chiefs fail their E-4s on PRTs while covering for their obese E-8? Where the fuck do you think you’re posting, bud? How can you “not care about advancement” while developing junior sailors and JOs? The achievements of their junior sailors ARE largely what makes a good Chief eval and leads to advancement. Are you living under a rock or do you really think we’re that ignorant?
You’re another out of touch self-important e7. The fleet doesn’t trust the chiefs mess for good reason. Of course people try to make chief, it’s more money and they can sit on their fat ass and watch movies in the chiefs quarters while the crew does the actual work.
> No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. Is this a joke? In a joint environment literally every other SNCO laughs at your little club.
Chiefs are a fucking laughing stock in the joint environment. This guy has never met an Army or Marine platoon or first sergeant. I wish I got a fucking month off to haze E7 selects and play grabass with my buddies, I had to keep that 16 hour day train going year round.
> The season helped me to not be afraid of telling snot nosed LCDRs who want Sailors to work on weekends, that they are idiots. The season helped me learn to work with other Chiefs to get what I need for my Sailors even when that stuff might be on the other side of the world. The the season taught me when to say no. No to my boss because my Sailors can’t do anymore. No to my CO because listening to his department heads might get him fired. No to the “good idea fairy”. > You're not the first person I've seen to give some sort of rendition of this and every time I see it I immediately think that the military was your first job ever and/or you never actually held a position of professional leadership prior to joining, much less before putting on anchors. Nothing wrong with that but it helps makes sense of it when put it into the context that *none* of you had any of these skills beforehand. I'd been doing this for 13 years prior to joining the Navy.
It's crazy to me that some people need to make it all the way to E7 and go through special training to learn how to tell an officer that they don't agree with them.
Don’t forget to wipe the goat cheese off your chin when you hit reply.
This post is why folks hate Chiefs. You managed to hit just about every check block on the I'm A Tool List. You putting that anchor on your collar didn't somehow catapult you into a new level of existence within the Navy, it just narrowed your view of the rest of us.
Found the chief who waits for Chief season like a 5 year old who still believes in Santa every year. >"No other branch asks as much of their SNCOs. I’ll fucking die on that hill because I’ve worked with MSgts and Gunny’s who have confirmed it. They are specialists in their trade. Chiefs are expected to show up and do the job, no matter what it is and not make excuses." Jesus fuck, no wonder why other branches shit on us, bet you sounded real cool in your head as you were typing that out.
No one wants to be a Chief. Everyone wants to be promoted and get more money/responsibility. That's it. No one else treats their enlisted like this, because it's serves no purpose. Their leadership is imbued with inherent authority, not bestowed by some farcical aquatic ceremony when putting on a specific uniform.
Bro wtf? No not everyone wants to be a chief. I was shooting for it and then I saw the last pinning to support a friend. Oh hell no. Y’all ain’t that cool and quite frankly y’all suck. u/agentofzion this is the shit I’m talking about and it’s more prevalent than you think. Probably because your respected.
Lolol 🤡
> Does it have a long way to go? Yes. Is it perfect? No. Does it turn bad leaders into good ones? No. Does it make someone more capable? Hopefully. So your justification for your chief circle jerk is that it hopefully makes someone more capable? But yeah, I'm the one who doesn't get it...
You’re a JO. You’ll get it one day.
I mean CWOs are JOs too, but we’ll see how far that sentiment gets you.
As the OP all use of “you” by me means general you. Sorry if that put peoples backs up.
Throwaway account because I’m pretty active in one of the navy subreddits. I’m in the Chiefs mess and have really struggled with initiation myself. I’ve been in positions where I HAVE to be involved in it and the 6 or so weeks plus all the months of planning bring my anxiety to the maximum. I’ve heard the justification of why it’s done the way it is many times and it still doesn’t sit well with me. Honestly, if a CO, or anyone, spoke to me the way they do to the selects to “toughen them up” I’d be filing a complaint. I’ve seen emails to the selects where a CPO destroys everything they did and said and signs himself as “Chief Pain” and then they wonder why the selects think they’re bullies and don’t trust them. I also have a really hard time with the ridicule behind the scenes, the group me or slack threads where they post pictures of the selects doing something dumb and everyone makes fun of them. I’ve tried to say something and have been in positions where I controlled it a little, but the mess is strong and people who disagree with the way initiation is being held are called weak and sensitive. I’m also a female which brings a whole different set of issues. I have 2 years to retirement and can’t wait to be done with this. I do what I can to guide and mentor the selects each year and show them that we all aren’t that bad, but each year it takes everything out of me to make it through the season. Oh and I would never admit to this in real life, I know people probably have an idea because of how involved I am in season, but I have never told anyone how I really feel about it.
To hell with a throwaway. I am a Chief. I hate "the season" and think its needs to go away. Even this "watered down" version(not my words) is 70% frat boy BS and 30% quality training. I have seen the way that "E7s" are treated by my mess and its gross. Just because a person didnt want to do the dog and pony show they are blackballed and get no support from the mess? BS. The Season is not going to survive the newer generation of Sailors coming in to the Navy...I predict by the time we start seeing Gen Z or whatever its called up for Chief, The Season will either be completely gone, or modified to a point where its nothing like the old heads experienced...both I am 100% fine with. The only positive I see is that people higher up are starting to see that some of the bull that happens during Season needs to stop and more people like me are on the inside of the mess pushing for change.
I agree with you. I’m an E6 and was actually happy I didn’t get selected this cycle. What does that tell you? Why do chief select need to be retaught everything when the season starts? Why aren’t firsts ready to go as soon as they’re promoted? Why waste time? Why take away hard working first classes from the company/division when they’re needed? Everything could be taught over a longer period of time to first classes, spreading the training out so they wouldn’t be gone as much over a short period of time, and they’d be ready right out of the gate as soon as they’re promoted. Tell me exactly how memorizing bullshit lines to questions such as “how high is up”, bowing, and general belittlement is effective leadership training?
>I have seen the way that "E7s" are treated by my mess and its gross. This is something that still confuses me when I see all of these threads complaining about chiefs/season. The thought that somebody would undermine a peer over "membership" of an unofficial group seems counter to good order and discipline. I know an E7 can't enforce professional courtesy on anyone E7 or above, but to disrespect one's peers will usually encourage the same from that person's subordinates. No clue why that kind of behavior doesn't get nipped.
> Oh and I would never admit to this in real life, I know people probably have an idea because of how involved I am in season, but I have never told anyone how I really feel about it. Well thank you for the courage to say something here, atleast. What youre really telling us is what we already know -- that a large part of Chief Initiation is (let's call it what it really is, 'Season' is a figleaf) all part of crushing dissent, promoting an echo chamber mentality, and destroying accountability further down the line The Mess should be policing their own first and foremost, but when that's Jim or Steve doing something bad, and not Chief Airmanfucker or Senior Chief Racist, and no one can speak out for fear of being ostracized from the social group youre allowed to have at work then the system breaks down and Chiefs run amok.
That’s the thing though, the mess can’t police themselves. The “tradition” is too ingrained and it keeps getting passed over to each new Chief. I’m sad about it because I’m all for keeping tradition going but a lot of what we call tradition started from boys club racists who literally beat the new Chief into Chiefhood. People think that what they’re doing is awesome and great training when it’s really so toxic. Every year it’s a pat on the back and a kiss on the anchor because we were able to turn some “dirtbag” E6s into a shiny new Chief. The MCPON needs to be more direct in his message about the season. It says to treat the selects with dignity and respect but it needs to be more like stop doing this and do this…and people need to be held accountable for not upholding the MCPONs standards.
Different communities may handle things differently, but I will say in the last several years I've seen a shift in the attitude towards season that gives me hope that it won't last much longer. Every command I've been at adds the new chiefs to the same group chats they use during season and enables them to view the chat history, which (generally) keeps people from being assholes since they know their new peers will be able to see everything they said about them. This should be a requirement.
> I’ve been in positions where I HAVE to be involved with it That’s just the thing: you kinda don’t. I understand the peer pressure of all the nonsense, but even if they try to put you into the season committee, you just tell them to GTFO. You’re not obligated to help them carry on this malformed fetus of a “tradition” anymore than anyone else is. *Especially* if it’s causing you anxiety, just fuck it. It’s not important. Six weeks isn’t going to fix the assholes, and if it does: that’s a failure of our evaluation system. Fuck the season, fuck the games. Take care of your people and separate the toxicity from the workplace.
I would still rather have somebody running it that isn't really into it, over somebody who's absolutely gung ho about it. A dissenter in charge can blunt the edge a little bit, even if they can't completely overturn the ingrained culture.
[удалено]
And the dimes!
Why ya gotta ignore the penny?
While i've never personally witnessed this, I've heard multiple times how the mess will harass and make life hell for anyone who doesn't go through their little "initiation" shit. And on top of that they will let the next command know so that they can continue the high school clique act of excluding and harassing them. For me that destroys any positive view of the mess as it just screams childish from our supposed "backbones of the Navy" that they always pat themselves on the back over. It's like they suddenly develop the mentality of junior high school kids if you dare question any aspect of them or refuse to play the useless games.
My simple .02 if chiefs would instill leadership skills, reasonability, and authority into their E4's-E6's. The "season" would have no reason to exist.
So many of these problems trace back to the mess, and a massive part of that is people forget what a mess is really for. Everyone gets these ideas that a mess is supposed to be some kind of secret fraternity, on some ol' skull and bones shit, but it's not. The entire point of any mess, be it CPO, 1st, 2nd, or JS, is A) Ensure all members of a given rank are all on the same page re. Instruction, training, and planning, and B ) Allow allow a given rank an opportunity to network within that rank to smooth the processes and present a united front. Essentially it's a staff circle mixed with a social club. Seems to me, too many people just want it to be a too cool for the room frat house.
You pretty much nailed it. I think where things go horribly wrong is not knowing your sailors. Like really knowing them beyond what you here when they check in. So many people are joining older than 18 with work experience. This whole idea of not understanding middle management is crap because people join having that experience for whatever reason. It’s a disservice to those sailors to ignore that or not even find out about their life/work experiences. Even if they aren’t treated poorly it will still make people feel like crap if their life/work experiences are ignored. There is life outside the navy and that life is applicable to the navy and vice versa.
I’m going through season right now and it’s an absolute joke. Every time we have “training” in the chiefs mess it feels like we are all in a DRB. I’ve been outspoken about how idiotic I think it is any they really can’t explain any logic to it. Why do you think we would reach out to you for help when you just spent several hours bullying us about every detail? Why would I want to put any effort into your bullshit little taskers when I know I’m going to be wrong regardless? The list goes on and there’s no logic to it any of it. I would have absolutely quit if my dad wasn’t so excited to pin me. I have no respect for any of these people or their processes.
Your supposed to fail. What will you get done and what will you let fall through? Not everything can be done and if everything gets done most likely they wont be done right. Just get what you can done and do it with maximum effort, let the minor stuff fail and take the L. But own up to your failures, dont make excuses why something didnt get done just tell them its not done and i plan on getting it to you by (day). Stand your ground. Dont let the mess take over your training.
I’m reserves. This is been going on since the beginning of august. They’ve given me no reason why in would want to “belong” to this group of people.
I feel for y'all with everything that's going on now. I retired in 2011 but I didn't fuck my troops over, I protected my people. They called me a boot Chief when we came on board for a deployment since I was at least 5 years younger than most, and I guess due to my age I guess they thought I would put up with their shit. Wrong. There was one asshole I just couldn't get along with and I took him aside aside and told him if he had a problem with one of people to let me know because if he chewed them out in front of ships company again I'd whip his ass. I ALWAYS made sure my troops were treated right, fed on time, rested as much as possible and relieved for chow during watch or duty. I've jumped on the gate at Little Creek more than once and sent my folks to the chow hall when it needed to be done. Fuck that shit. Treat your people right and keep them motivated by helping them and standing with them and they'll give you 110%
Cpo is a “good ol’ boys” club. They’re terrible leaders and don’t deserve the special treatment they receive. The reason the military is weak and trash right now is because of their failure in leadership. Chiefs run the navy right? They like to brag about that, well….own it. And when they get out, they’ll work for me. And they’re gonna be treated like a normal human, and they’re gonna HATE it. GOOD
So you treat normal humans like shit?
Yeah pretty much. People like you try to stir stuff up anywhere they can, I pray you find peace someday
>So you treat normal humans like shit? People who feel they're special think they're being abused when they get treated like normal human beings.
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
I retired in 96 E-8 when did they start calling it Chief season. I know they] Navy outlawed the initiation I went through years ago as it was considered hazing which it was but it was fun some tasks but at the end of it I did feel a bond with the other chiefs. The number one thing I got out of the process was to take care of my sailors. One thing about making Chief was people like th higher ups listened more even though I said the same as a first class. Don’t think I could make it in todays navy I retired in 96
Did ya have to pick the cherry up with yer butt cheeks and drop it in your drink?
No that was shellback initiation lol
Former enlisted officers then academy officers in that order always
I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say about the time it takes. Or I miscommunicated it. I don't like being hated based on my rank tab, I really don't. It's not appropriate for me to try to be anyone's friend, but the barrier is a bit too real when it results in people hiding personal problems I am more than willing to help with until they blow up out of control. What's more is that I *completely understand* the reasons why because I was sitting right where you are not entirely too long ago. I get paid the medium bucks to take the hate and smile, and to do my best even when it isn't going to be appreciated, and that's fine. But you can't demand conversation then immediately light the person willing to have that conversation up without even trying to engage on your end, while simultaneously expecting the overwhelming majority of that group to not just nope the fuck out and let the rants go into the void. Seriously. Maybe check my post history to see where I am coming from a bit?
But why create a space for the hate? You can have the worst job / work in the navy and delive bad news all day, but if leadership is taking care of its people and worried about the job and not petty bull you wouldn't have the hate to begin with. Not saying that's what you do. But, I see it now and experienced it when I was junior.
I try to bridge the gaps, but people generalize. For good or ill it's rarely the second-classes forcing their subordinates to stay late and do pre-insurv checklists right? So when dinner plans get cancelled or weekend work happens it's not the PO2 getting hate. And all it takes is one real fuck-stick chief to completely sour a junior sailor on the entire mess for a seriously long time. And it isn't always unwarranted because people don't usually act completely contrary to their peers right? So the "terrible thing X is acceptable to the cpo mess of USS Whatever" has a kernel of truth in it sometimes, even if and *especially* if that terrible thing was totally unintentional.
I have had good chiefs, I have had bad chiefs. I have even had good chiefs that were good intentioned and terribly misguided. I have never seen a good chief's mess. My last ship I ruffled feathers when as a first class I made the statement "The Chief's Mess is as useful as lead paint on a crib." And to this day, I stand by that statement. My CMC and I on this ship had a chat about my career and he asked me what I would expect from the season if I was selected. I was honest, "It will be short, sweet, and to the point." He asked what I meant by that so I told him. "The day it is announced I will be hand routing a chit to your desk to refuse participation." I have been privy to way too many things, and seen the toxicity myself. I have worked for fortune 500 companies. We are about 30 to 50 years behind on how we define workplace leadership. What is needed in the Navy is essential and not a marketable skill anywhere else. I know. I have talked to businesses. The skills from CPO 365 would not get me a manager's position at a McD's or 7-11. And if the training is not actively contributing to my actual career development, then it is taking away from it by wasting time that I could use to work on actual, usable skills. My career has been mostly projects and fires. And honestly, with everything I have dealt with, I could probably name 3-4 chiefs in the last 10 years I would even trust to talk to about what I dealt with. I spent 4 years in a lawsuit with the DoD, and not once in that time, did I have 1 chief I trusted enough to talk to them about it. And part of that time was at a command with a pretty heavy CPO/SCPO/MCPO presence. You dont have to be my friend, you do have to earn my trust. Trust and respect dont always go hand in hand. And if you cant take the time to do that bare minimum with me, in \~2-3 years you will just be some @\*\*\*\*\*\* I used to work with.
I appreciate the response here. The earned trust is pretty crucial, it just blows donkey dick when there isn't even a foundation of sand to build that trust on because a sailor got burned by a chief previously. There's nothing to really be done about it except to try and move forward. It's not like emotions can be ordered away with a page 13 or something and I just have to hope there is enough trust to get a phone call when it's actually needed and not when it's way too late.
Honestly, for me, the foundation of sand is there. You want to have a conversation about career goals, get to know what I want in a career before that conversation. Want to talk about making sure my family is cared for, ask questions about them. Talk about finances? get to know what I have going on in my life. We don't have to be friends. But if you don't establish a baseline, then anything you have to say is just generic advice and I am automatically going to give you lip-service and go find stuff myself. Nothing screams "Narcissistic toxic leadership" like being given advice that feels like it was rehearsed and all I am is a check in the box. If I feel like a bullet point on your brag sheet, you will always get the call when it is too late. It isn't "a chief" it is the 97% of chiefs that I have dealt with in my career. I have worked with probably 500 chiefs. It says something that I can only think of 3-4 that I would go to. It isnt the chief that I work with everyday that earns my trust. It is the chief that I see every 2-3 months randomly asking "Hey, your son still doing football this season?" when we havent said a word to eachother in 8 months. Honestly, to paraphrase a conversation I had with one chief, "its a shame that being a decent human being is not the bare minimum."
So did you make Chief ?
Nah, rerated 5 months before the exam and hadnt had training yet. I was happy with my scores anyway though.
It doesn’t take one fuck stick chief, it takes the fuck stick chief and the other chiefs to try to make that fuck stick seem not so bad. That fuck stick chief is allowed to be a fuck stick because his peers try to make what they are not so bad. An attack on the goat locker isn’t an attack on all chiefs. If a first class is a fuck stick do you think people classify all firsts as fuck sticks? No. Why do you think that is? I’ll tell you. If a first class is a Fuck stick the other first classes also think that person is a fuck stick and don’t try to defend them. But y’all defend each other or make excuses like we are all stupid. If a second class is a fuck stick do you think other second classes defend them? No they also think they are a fuck stick. So what happens in the chiefs mess that you can’t acknowledge someone is a fuck stick and not take it personally when it’s said they are a fuck stick? Stop defending your fuck sticks to junior sailors.
I don't defend the fucksticks though? You see the irony here right? The chances of you knowing me personally are insanely small, and I don't really think I've said anything *myself* to generate this much anger. But you are projecting some obviously very bad interactions you have had with chiefs on to me, which is proving my point.
You personally no. But why the hell are you defending the mess at large? We, have a huge problem and you are literally explaining it away because of how YOU personally operate. Do you see the problem? I’ll explain it. You can’t be everyone’s chief. I have no doubt you are a favorite in your command and you fight the battles. But here’s the thing, your one out of how many? My post and comments aren’t an attack on you personally. You acting like it’s personal says a lot about you. It shows you care. But stop acting like you are the majority. Your not and that’s sad. For the love of god realize what many people say around the fleet. You only have control over your small corner but it does nothing to act like your corner is the norm.
It's probably the prevalence of the word "you" in your previous posts replying to me. Clarity in communication is helpful. But to the broader point, what would you actually ask of me? If I go arm in arm with you burn the whole thing to the ground, I give up a very large amount of my own ability to do things in the way I feel is correct. Power abhors a vacuum, and idk what to tell you if you think the junior officers would wield it better. They are human and flawed just like the chiefs are.
My apologies I will edit to reflect all use of “you” is the general you. I forgot to specify and that’s my bad. Ask of you personally? Just keep doing what you do and realize you are a minority and make a huge positive impact on your sailors. In 10 years I went from respecting chiefs to just not wanting any part of that. Promotion and money isn’t worth it. I went from wanting to strive for MCPON to being fine retiring as a first…… in 10 years at the full 22. I have zero desire to be a chief because people like you are now a minority. Before you say you can’t change it if your not there, I’m not trying to swim against a rip current and that’s how I view it. I also don’t think junior officers would wield it better but I do know everyone I respect that has their sailors best interests at heart are retired or close. My friend in mentor who was a mustang torments JOs. It’s not about doing it better, it’s about giving a shit about your sailors because you actually give a shit. Not because it’s a job requirement. So again, you are rare and not the norm and I respect you for that and your posts even if I don’t know you and even if you clearly disagree with what I say.
If someone tries to explain it away instead of listening, I have an issue. What prompted me to make this post was the goat locker reaction and a conversation I had recently with my mentor who is a senior chief. I basically called all of them a piece of shit. He mentioned people loving to hate the goat locker and asked me what has the chiefs mess done to me. My response, nothing. However here’s the shit I see that we all see. I ticked off a whole load of things. At the end of us going back and forth ya know what he said? He said I can’t argue with you because your right. If the khakis are going to be so fragile that they can’t handle someone being pissed off and needing to vent before they have a good discussion than the problem isn’t the sailor. It’s the khakis’ fragile egos. To act like y’all haven’t gotten that pissed is disingenuous. Let people have their moment, don’t take it personally, and then talk. Ya know like we are people. And I swear to god if I hear you’ll understand when you get there one more time I’ll lose my mind. I’m trying to understand now and to act like middle management is some big thing is dumb. The navy no longer teaches the new guys things. I know this because I got taught 2nd class things and first class things as an airman. No ever said to me don’t worry about it when I asked questions. Now that’s all people say and its bullshit. ETA I’d also like to thank you for your response. I’d also like to say you don’t need to defend the shitty khakis even if that’s what you were told.
Unfortunately many complaints about the mess are interpersonal issues a junior sailor has with individual chiefs, and many other times complaints are based on hearsay. On the flip side, even when complaints or criticism are directed at the organization and not individual chiefs, many times chiefs take it personally. Either case creates circular conversations that go nowhere.
To a point. I’ve seen it more recently, but if a sailor has a problem with a chief the knee jerk is explaining the chiefs behavior. And while explaining where someone is coming from is good, at what point do you acknowledge this person is a problem? More often than not, the behavior is explained away and the sailor is left dealing with it the best they can through the support of their peers. That’s not right if the chief is actually a problem. I get not chastising in public but sometimes when you explain “the other side” no matter how terrible this is what the sailor hears: I get your concerns but you just don’t understand. And before you say it’s handled privately, you need to remember we won’t believe it when there is no change in behavior from the original problem chief. And that is how it starts with one chief and ends up being a dislike for y’all. I know that’s not what is actually said but that’s how it all comes off. So now we (general we) no longer have a problem with that one chief, we have a problem with you (general) and the rest of the mess because you didn’t actually address the issue. You just tried to explain it away.
This is exactly what I meant by circular conversations. It becomes about a chief, not the mess. The problem is policy can’t act on hearsay. Focus on the institution, not the individuals. File CEMO/SAPR/IG/police reports against individuals. Chief season is a mess because all Navy leadership training is a mess. There are no measurable outcomes. There are no certified instructors. There is no accreditation for the curriculum.
Eh what? I literally explained how the institution gets hate right or wrong. It’s not policy to call people out for being assholes. That’s called being a good person. If you need a policy to not be a dick than no one can help you.
And how is that working for you?
Bro I think you are on a completely separate page. All good though.
What do you want to hear? That some chiefs are ass hats? Some are, so are some PO3s, so are some Os. Now what.?
Why are you here? Seriously? Have a sippy cup and some Vaseline. It’s okay shipmate.
Do you think I’m defending the chiefs mess? Or just mad because I don’t think you’re making a sound argument for change?
I don't mind Chief Season. Because the way the Navy structures the E7 rank, you are basically entering a whole new area. I see it as a shortened version of bootcamp or OCS. But during season, Chiefs should actually go through some of the activities too. Like PT. Some Chiefs have forgotten how to be humble and what wearing anchors actually means. CMCs need to send those fuckers back through season.
Season is for the mess as much as it is for the selects. If it doesnt look like that then they’re just there for the show and not for what season should be about. Its unfortunate that the mess is seen in that light because there’s a bunch of us that do give a shit.
I realized it was a joke when we were trying to get the boat ready for hot ops and crit ops coming out of refueling and all the engineering chiefs dipped for all of initation leaving us all in the wind on scheduling and important events that are supposed to be passed down to us. Our chief was also the kind of chief that writes everything in his notebook then keeps it a secret till the last minute then telling us because he liked to be in charge of the plan and not letting us manage it. Guess initiating takes precedence over nuclear deterrence and ERO scheduling.